Geoff Hoon to announce further cuts in the Brit Armed Forces

[fantassin]

According to today's "The Times", Geoff Hoon will announce on the 16th of July the following cuts in the British Armed Forces;

-4 army battalions with the Army strength to stand at 101,000
-7000 airmen, a possible withdrawal of 40-50 Jaguars Gr7 and the closure of up to 12 RAF stations and bases
-3000 sailors, 3 Type 42 Destroyers, 3 Type 23 ASW Frigates, 1 or 2 Swiftsure SSNs and possibly the Ark Royal aircraft carrier.

[Roger Rabbit]

From the Times


HE Royal Navy and RAF will suffer the brunt of huge cuts in personnel and equipment to be announced this month, The Times has learnt.
The announcement of the cuts in manpower — 7,000 from the RAF and 3,000 from the Navy — comes as the Fire Brigades Union is once again threatening a strike, making it likely that the Services will be needed for firefighting duties.



John Prescott, the Deputy Prime Minister, is expected to decide whether to call up troops next week.

The cuts will be announced by Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, on July 16, four days after Gordon Brown gives details of his spending review for all government departments. They result from a long-running review of the growing imbalance between resources and “military activities”. The MoD has been spending beyond its means and has to make the cuts to stay within its budget.

On the positive side, Mr Hoon is expected to be awarded a real-terms increase in his budget of about 1 per cent, which will be seen as a successful outcome of the tough negotiations between the MoD and the Treasury.

However, the additional money will not put off the cuts in manpower and equipment that will lead to some of the biggest reductions since the Conservative’s Options for Change review in 1990.

The Army will also be affected by the cuts, losing four out of forty infantry battalions. However, the “surplus” soldiers will be absorbed into a restructured Army that will consist of larger regiments — a minimum of two battalions each instead of only one in some cases as at present.

The MoD wants a positive spin to be put on the changes, describing them as part of a crucial modernisation of the services.

However, Service chiefs, who will have to explain to those under their command why they are about to face cuts for the third time in less than 15 years, want the facts spelt out honestly.

Under the cuts now agreed by ministers, the Navy is to lose six surface warships — three of the old Type 42 destroyers and three Type 23 anti-submarine warfare frigates. One or two of the nuclear-powered Swiftsure class submarines will also be axed.

An additional option is to sell one of the three aircraft carriers: HMS Ark Royal is already in “extended readiness” — effectively in mothballs at Rosyth with a skeleton crew — and would be the most vulnerable.

The RAF is to be even more heavily cut back, with 7,000 personnel going, and dozens of bases closed. According to defence sources, those engaged in the review recommended the elimination of the Jaguar combat aircraft squadrons, which would mean the axeing of 40-50 aircraft and the possible closure of RAF Coltishall in Norfolk, where they are based.

The long-term plan for the Army is to reduce its overall trained strength to about 101,000.

Four battalions are to be axed after a review of security in Northern Ireland, where there are still 12,500 soldiers committed to the Province.

Does Hoon not like the Armed Forces?

[ZeroPositive]

ffs not surprised... our kit is getting worst as it is, we have to buy most of our kit as the issue stuff doesn't always cover all our needs...
I wish we had the money the Yanks can shift out for there military....
We had a shortage of Ballistic plates, we have this infamous story of a tank commander shot at close range when he was out of his tank and died due to lacking the plates in his IBV....

[tyovan]

Has anyone heard yet which 4 regiments are being cut??

I see apparantly, two of these regiments will be Scottish ( http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=767202004 ) ,but has anyone heard which regiments for sure are being scrapped??

[usa320]

Personally id drop the Eurofighter 2000 like a bucket of bricks.

Its expensive as all hell, and really, it doesnt do anything that the Tornado or GR.7 cant do...

Its not stealth, it doesnt have thrust vectoring, and the avionics upgrades could be done to other airplanes for a fraction of the cost of fielding a new plane, which really has yet to prove itself.

I could see the cost being justified if it did something new and cool like the F-22 and JSF will. But spending billions on hardware that doesnt do much more than the current hardware does just doesnt ring my bell.

[ShadowNeo]

Given the current situation, I do think any cutbacks are absolute bull****, but you can't simply start with the "hang hoon" stuff on this issue, as the Conservatives have made it well known that there would be cutbacks from them also if they were in power.

Politicians :cantbeli:

-Edit-

Actually, is this not something they have printed before and simply printed again as the predicted date for any announcements has neared? I remember reading about this stuff at least 2 months ago (which was dismissed as speculation at the time).

Have any concrete announcements been made since then that give any of these claims credibility?

[scm77]

I bet Prime Minister Martin would like Hoon as Canadas Minister of National Defence. Snip snip snip.

[W(M)D]

The British army will soon be down to sections named after old regiments. Or to raise funds, the units will be sponsored by companies like football teams.
The MoD has already taken the meat away from the military in the UK over the years, and cuts seem to come round all too frequently. But the large contingent of civil servants remains in place.
Is it 3 or 4 defence suts since 1990?

[Kilgor]

Is the eurofighter to the UK what the collins class subs are to australia ?
Sounds like it... billions wasted, systems not working, project running very late

[ShadowNeo]

I personally don't see the Eurofighter as a waste, the main reasons there are/were problems with the systems were because other projects were not delivering on time or being done efficiently *cough*BAe*cough*, so cutbacks had to be made in the Eurofighter. I'm not sure of the current progress with the service entry date for aircraft, but there has been some punlicity recently over the first few being delivered to squadrons (in squadron livery)

Due to this problem, it seems that cuts will be needed in the present, to protect the future, which is why none of the current future programs are under threat (yet).

[GrantT]

Does Hoon not like the Armed Forces?

No, our Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown doesn't like the armed forces. Brown wants to see more money being spent on public services like hospitals and schools which I think is utter bull**** seeing as though we are fighting in two wars and have troops stationed around the world.

[W(M)D]

Plus covering the fire strikers, erm I meant firefighters.

[MolliG]

UK Defence Force here we come! :|

[FDF_Hemppis]

Switch to conscript army p-)

[ShadowNeo]

The cuts will probably have been made worse by Brown's broken pledge to pay the £5billion for the Iraq war.

Yesterday's (Scottish) Mail on Sunday had some stuff about the proposed cuts (concerning the scottish regiments) stating that there were two options being considered:

A) Saving 4 of the 6 Scottish regiments by incorporating them into two enlarged regiments (1st Highlanders and 1st Lowlanders).

B) Dissolve the Royal Scots, Highlanders, Argylls and Black Watch leaving two fully manned regiments.

They had some rational reasoning about the brunt of the cuts being in Scotland (young scots becoming more nationalistic, not wanting to serve in a british army). But they also had some absolute crap as reasoning - touting that one reason was that some Scottish soldiers had worn Portugal shirts in their mess and cheered for portugal instead of England during 2004.

[oldsoak]

Tory, liberal or labour - there all the b****y same. If you're Tory you cut back on the armed forces to finance tax cuts, if you are Labour or Liberal you cut back on the armed forces to pay for public utilities. The vote exists to choose who you get shafted by - grrrrr
:bash:

[KB]

What a shame; UK military is among the world's best.

[Chris1]

Tory, liberal or labour - there all the b****y same. If you're Tory you cut back on the armed forces to finance tax cuts, if you are Labour or Liberal you cut back on the armed forces to pay for public utilities. The vote exists to choose who you get shafted by - grrrrr
:bash:yup.
Don't agree with the conservative policies in my area, will not vote labour and I've met the Lib Dem's, one bloke below 70 and bless the lad, the lights are on but nobody gives a ****.
Its only going to get worse.

[Gringo]

Hoon is a f***ing moron!

[marktigger]

there is speculation in this months airforces monthly the the Airbus Tanker will be cancelled and that the seaking and puma will be retired without replacement merlin being transfared to SAR. But with the carriers cut the treasury will argue that there is no requirement for them. Is there a requirement for vanguard/trident and scrapping it would save how much? Getting rid of a couple of thousand civil servants would save alot more money than getting rid of sailors and airmen. The loss of an armoured brigade is worrying we should be expanding to 3 divs of 3 brigades one heavy with the armoured bdes one medium with the mech bdes and one light with air assualt, marine commando and the new light bde. with full div support. But then Labour will squander any savings and the investment won't be made in new technology as is being promised.
I'd say scrap the Nimrod MR 4 and buy into the US beoing MPA pogramme. Keep Eurofighter to replace tornado F3 keep harrier. Keep GR4 tornado. Replace Puma and sea King with Merlin and Lynx to the new westland super Lynx.

[marktigger]

However, while the budget for Britain's national security will be boosted by "significantly more" than the average, Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, is preparing to make major cuts in the Armed Forces after receiving only a one per cent increase.

The Royal Air Force is facing the most far-reaching cuts in its 86-year history and Mr Hoon will tell the Commons next week that the service will lose up to 7,000 personnel - more than 14 per cent of its total strength of 48,635. The Royal Navy will lose up to 3,000 sailors and the Army is to shed at least four battalions.

The cuts are designed to "rebalance" the Armed Forces and to claw back a £1.9 billion budget deficit. They will, according to defence chiefs, have the effect of making both the RAF and the Royal Navy subservient to the Army, not just in strength but also in operational importance - a galling prospect for the Navy which has seen itself as the "senior service".

Under the shake-up, almost the entire RAF Regiment, which is responsible for security at bases, will be disbanded. The two remaining Jaguar squadrons will also go as will all of the RAF's 39 Puma transport helicopters and 79 GR7 Harrier jump jets. Up to five air bases will close. The cuts will also exact a heavy price from the Navy, which will lose at least six surface ships, two Type 23 frigates and four Type 42 destroyers and one, possibly two, nuclear submarines.

The Army is expected to lose at least four out of 40 infantry battalions and up to 50 Challenger II tanks and 50 Warrior armoured infantry vehicles. The Army Air Corps will also suffer the prospect of losing its entire fleet of 118 two-seat Gazelle reconnaissance helicopters.



Sunday Telegraph 11/07/2003

[ShadowNeo]

Hoon is a f***ing moron!

Hoon can't be blamed for everything, the Chancellor has just as much to do with these cuts.

[kris777]

The cuts will also exact a heavy price from the Navy, which will lose at least six surface ships, two Type 23 frigates and four Type 42 destroyers and one, possibly two, nuclear submarines.



Sunday Telegraph 11/07/2003

No we don't need a fleet anymore, what a stupid idea. Britannia rules the waves my arse, politicians and civil servants argh! :(

[Gringo]

Hoon is a f***ing moron!

Hoon can't be blamed for everything, the Chancellor has just as much to do with these cuts.

Hoon and Brown are f***ing morons!
that better?

[ShadowNeo]

Much better :)

[Hydro]

The cuts will also exact a heavy price from the Navy, which will lose at least six surface ships, two Type 23 frigates and four Type 42 destroyers and one, possibly two, nuclear submarines.



Sunday Telegraph 11/07/2003

No we don't need a fleet anymore, what a stupid idea. Britannia rules the waves my arse, politicians and civil servants argh! :(

No, no, Britannia waives the rules :)

[cut]

The reason why Brown is cutting down on the armed forces is because that is the most pain free area, most of the public don't care about having a strong army, or a big navy, or a modern air force. The public don't think it necessary now that the biggest threat to the world is our bumchum across the pond.

Which would be fine if the world was heading for a perpetually peaceful future, which in turn is of course unlikely, if not close to impossible.

[oldsoak]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3885801.stm

- who said civil servants are immune ( too F**king right they shouldnt be )

[ShadowNeo]

'Boost for military'


Ed Balls, until recently chief economic adviser to the Treasury, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme there would be "quite substantial efficiency savings" to shift resources to the "front line".

The Times newspaper says the review will give £3bn to the Armed Forces in a deal better than the settlement two years ago, which in turn was the best for the Forces for 20 years.

So, cuts and boosts?

[oldsoak]

Yup. A cut in funds is always followed by a boost in commitments.

[Royal]

'Boost for military'


Ed Balls, until recently chief economic adviser to the Treasury, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme there would be "quite substantial efficiency savings" to shift resources to the "front line".

The Times newspaper says the review will give £3bn to the Armed Forces in a deal better than the settlement two years ago, which in turn was the best for the Forces for 20 years.

So, cuts and boosts?

No. cuts in real terms.

Despite the fact that the UK armed forces are at their most operationally commited ever. We are way over the operational commitment levels of both WWI and WWII...

[Pille1234]

Why paying for security? Let the yanks do that. It works for us, why not for you too?
:(

[ShadowNeo]

Some points from the spending review (on TV now)


Increase from £29.7bil - £33.4bil by 2007/8
(increase of 1.4% annual average real terms)

Defence Modernisaion fund increased to £1bil
Meet costs of Iraq + Afghanistan and future conflicts from emergency reserves (Additional £4billion commited to Iraq)

2007-8 guaranteed access of £300mil for MOD

[Pille1234]

Tax payer's money well spent I'd say


MoD chairs £1,000 each as troops face axe
By Michael Smith Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 12/07/2004)


The Ministry of Defence has bought each of its 3,150 Whitehall civil servants a £1,000 chair as it plans the biggest cuts in the Armed Forces since the Cold War.

The Herman Miller Aeron chair, described as the "most comfortable office chair in the world", is also the most expensive.

It is the kind David Dimbleby uses on BBC1's Question Time and has been on display at the New York Museum of Modern Art as one of America's designs of the decade.

The purchase is part of a £342 million refurbishment carried out at the ministry.

It was sanctioned just as British troops were being sent to war in Iraq. It later emerged that many of them had been dispatched without the proper equipment.

The expense has come to light as Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, prepares to announce cuts forced on him by the Treasury, in part because his ministry's civil servants got their sums wrong.

Sixteen teams of civil servants, with minimal representation from the three services, have looked at every aspect of the Armed Forces to find ways of saving up to £1.5 billion.

The cuts are expected to be so bad that Mr Hoon will announce them on July 21, the day before Parliament rises for its summer recess, to limit criticism from MPs on both sides of the House.

The Royal Navy will lose up to seven surface ships, making it smaller than the French navy for the first time since the 17th century.

As many as four Army infantry battalions are expected to be axed and the RAF will lose five bases, about 7,000 personnel and many of its front-line aircraft.

The ministry denied that the Aeron chairs were an extravagance during a period of cuts, saying that they brought the working environment up to "acceptable modern standards" and would improve efficiency.

It said it did not pay the full recommended retail price of £1,050 for the chairs. A spokesman refused to say how much it did pay because "the exact cost is a commercially sensitive matter between the MoD and Herman Miller".

The spokesman said the ergonomic design would mean that fewer civil servants had to take time off work with back pain and that the chairs would last twice as long as ordinary ones.

Paul Keetch, the Liberal Democrats' defence spokesman, said he was sure that the ministry refurbishment was necessary but described the decision to buy Aeron chairs as "a joke" at a time when the Armed Forces were facing enormous cuts.

"The MoD has its priorities badly mixed up if it is happy to spend £1,000 on a chair while soldiers in Iraq have to buy their own boots," he said.

"It is a disgrace that, while the MoD is facing its worst cash crisis in a generation, soldiers are the ones who have to suffer. The Government must look after soldiers better before it can start buying fancy furniture."


http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/12/nmod12.xml

[kris777]

Some points from the spending review (on TV now)


Increase from £29.7bil - £33.4bil by 2007/8
(increase of 1.4% annual average real terms)

Defence Modernisaion fund increased to £1bil
Meet costs of Iraq + Afghanistan and future conflicts from emergency reserves (Additional £4billion commited to Iraq)

2007-8 guaranteed access of £300mil for MOD

added to that on bbc news it says...


National security and defence

# Overall spending on national security to more than double from £950m to £2.1bn by 2007/8, including recruiting 1,000 extra intelligence officials.

# The total defence budget would rise by £3.7bn to £33.4bn by 2007/8 - a real terms increase of 1.4%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3887909.stm

:|

[East]

I bet Prime Minister Martin would like Hoon as Canadas Minister of National Defence. Snip snip snip.

Yea no kidding. As if we aren't overstretched as it is.