Body Armor Question (Iraq)

[skunker]

Hey folks,
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how effective the US soldier body armor is in Iraq? Are those vests actually stopping more than 50% of the bullets? Does anyone have any pics of the vests after action that show damage?

Just curious...I keep hearing about soldiers getting cut down by enemy fire...I'm guessing most of the casaulties are from headshots and arm/leg injuries.

[Mongrel]

Does anyone have any pics of the vests after action that show damage?

Blood stained combat armour isn't something I'd like to see thanx. :(

But a good Question..esp' against the AK round, and I'm sure the insergents aren't following the rules as to not having hollow points, split rounds, and other such nasties.

Cheers!
M.

[szr]

From what I've heard and seen, the interceptor + SAPI fair decently vs. small arms. Infact it's one of the better systems in Iraq atm especially considering its relatively light weight.. Problem is; most of the time over there, it's an IED or or some other HE device. These are devices that cut through vehicle armor, so it shouldn't be surprising we're having a lot of fatalities despite the body armor.

Speaking of body armor and Iraq, I've noticed that the armor being fielded to the ICDC/ING has gone from the old PASGT vest and Iraqi army helmet, to PASGT helmets and newer looking vests. Anyone have any details on the new gear?

[skunker]

Is shrapnel from IED and other HE devices more lethal than pure bullets? I remember seeing a Medieval armor show on the History Channel....and some scientists compared the strike force of a bullet compared to a knife. They concluded that the basic knife was much more powerful and lethal than certain bullets....and could cut through all kinds of kevlar and bullet-proof vests very easily.

[Magua]

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/ac95bc775efc34c685256ab50049d458/8a846bcaccd5a85085256eb70021a83f?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,sapi

[Secret Squirrel]

Does anyone have any pics of the vests after action that show damage?

Blood stained combat armour isn't something I'd like to see thanx. :(

But a good Question..esp' against the AK round, and I'm sure the insergents aren't following the rules as to not having hollow points, split rounds, and other such nasties.

Cheers!
M.

I could be wrong, someone please correct me if i am, but wouldnt a full metal jacket bullet have a better chance of going through body armor than a hollow point one?

[szr]

Is shrapnel from IED and other HE devices more lethal than pure bullets? I remember seeing a Medieval armor show on the History Channel....and some scientists compared the strike force of a bullet compared to a knife. They concluded that the basic knife was much more powerful and lethal than certain bullets....and could cut through all kinds of kevlar and bullet-proof vests very easily.

In general, shrapnel is less lethal than direct fire. But the problem with shrapnel is depending on one's distance from the explosion, there is a ton of shrapnel coming your direction at once. Sort of a shotgun effect for lack of a better explanation. There is also the overpressure and heat from the blast itself which all contribute to the lethality of an explosive device.

[ctcboy]

Yes a full metal jacketed round will have a greater potential to penetrate body armour than a hollow point. The hollow point is designed to expand/break up on contact with a target. Full metal jaclet rounds a re designed to stay in one piece. Thus they offer superior penetration ability in comparison to the hollow point which can cause greater injury.

Its my underdstanding that knives can penetrate vests that are purely made of kevlar. However I dont believe that they would penetrate the armoured trauma plates used in amny modern types of body armour.

[Mongrel]

Its my underdstanding that knives can penetrate vests that are purely made of kevlar. However I dont believe that they would penetrate the armoured trauma plates used in amny modern types of body armour.

I believe that in some cases a knife can get through a plate, but I'd say in most cases it would be pretty tough, and the target would have to be standing still, and or be backed up against something solid.

Besides as I have said in other posts Armour design is limited to the human form ie..You are not going to see plates under the arms, neck, and groin area of any great mention..or the person in the suit would not be able to move, and fight properly. Those are always going to be 'soft spots' in armour design.

I still think body armour is a good idea, and shudder to think of how many would have been killed by now without it. For me I'd be a turtle.

Cheers!
M.

[Seraphim]

Is shrapnel from IED and other HE devices more lethal than pure bullets? I remember seeing a Medieval armor show on the History Channel....and some scientists compared the strike force of a bullet compared to a knife. They concluded that the basic knife was much more powerful and lethal than certain bullets....and could cut through all kinds of kevlar and bullet-proof vests very easily.

A vest designed to be bullet resistant is designed to be just that...BULLET RESISTANT. You can also get vests that are designed to stop knife/pointed objects...you can also get vests that protects from both.

[captainfly]

Well as most of us should know, the Russian 7.62x39mm projectile is steel cored (due to production costs) so it inhearendly better a penitrating body armour than a western FMJ/ball projectile, so that is the real problem with small arms fire in Iraq. As for getting med'evil on CBA it would be interesting to see how if fares against maces, war hammers and arrows (bodkin?), as I know that crossbow bolts can be/used to be a problem with modern body armour

[Seraphim]

Well as most of us should know, the Russian 7.62x39mm projectile is steel cored (due to production costs) so it inhearendly better a penitrating body armour than a western FMJ/ball projectile, so that is the real problem with small arms fire in Iraq. As for getting med'evil on CBA it would be interesting to see how if fares against maces, war hammers and arrows (bodkin?), as I know that crossbow bolts can be/used to be a problem with modern body armour

SAPI are designed to stop 7.62x39mm rounds.

[Michael RVR]

There's actually been several photo's around, none that i know where to find though sorry. No bloodstains either ;)

[Sayeret]

I could be wrong, someone please correct me if i am, but wouldnt a full metal jacket bullet have a better chance of going through body armor than a hollow point one?

Your correct, hollow points are made for use against humans and animals so they deform on impact inorder to create the biggest wound. A FMJ bullet doesn't deform because it is made to penetrate armor and go farther distances. Its better for the military to FMJs because they are more accurate at long distances and have better penetration.

The sharapnel from IEDs will usually be more lethal than bullets because the speed they hit someone at but it also depends a lot on where the IED goes off. I would say that usually the IEDs go off pretty close to the soldiers and even if they have body armor it won't be able to stop the sharapnel from it.

[sgt.pepper]

the shrapnel from IED can not be comparable to high powered rifle bullet, because shrapnel's ballistic trajectory and kinetic energy depend on the mechanism of explosion shrapnel has less aerodinamic shape less range and initial speed only his weight is bigger.

[ShakesFIST]

I know for a fact the Interceptor (IBAS) vest with plates will stop a point blank 12 gauge round. A guy in my unit experianced it first hand...

[maw]

do you know what kind of round?


I know for a fact the Interceptor (IBAS) vest with plates will stop a point blank 12 gauge round. A guy in my unit experianced it first hand...

[Seraphim]

do you know what kind of round?


I know for a fact the Interceptor (IBAS) vest with plates will stop a point blank 12 gauge round. A guy in my unit experianced it first hand...

Level 2A soft body armor can stop 12guage OObuckshot rounds.

[maw]

i don't believe a knife will penetrate a sapi plate. however, certain types of blades can cut through multi-layered kevlar/spectra/etc like butter. most of these are very specialized blade profiles designed with thrusts in mind that offer zero utility capability:

i had one of these, i lost so much blood to it i had to sell it:
http://www.szaboinc.com/custom/keruuk.jpg

here's another szabo but with an even more ****ounced tip:
http://www.szaboinc.com/custom/lightning.jpg

a gratuitous picture of another knife designed for penetration, the mad dog shrike:
http://www.streetpro.com/gif/md/shrike.jpg

and the shrike's bigger sister, the voodoo queen (should be called the kevlar eater):
http://www.mdk.idv.tw/photogallery/tim/tim_vdqueen1.jpg

kids: don't forget the band aids.


Is shrapnel from IED and other HE devices more lethal than pure bullets? I remember seeing a Medieval armor show on the History Channel....and some scientists compared the strike force of a bullet compared to a knife. They concluded that the basic knife was much more powerful and lethal than certain bullets....and could cut through all kinds of kevlar and bullet-proof vests very easily.

[tuckerhat]

They concluded that the basic knife was much more powerful and lethal than certain bullets....and could cut through all kinds of kevlar and bullet-proof vests very easily.

They're probably talking about soft body armor. Thats the stuff cops use. Knifes are effective because of the the way "soft" body armor works. picture a sweater. When a bullet impacts it spreads the force of the impact in all directions via the threads, in this case millions of them. This works for bullets but not something that is less "blunt". (think back to highschool, force / area = pressure. so increase the area and you decrease the pressure). Thus something like a knife or needle would be more effective...

HOWEVER, newer body armor (not soft) utilizes ceramic plates and thats a whole different story.

check this link for more info: http://people.howstuffworks.com/body-armor2.htm

[tuckerhat]

at school the materials science people make ceramic hammers. these are some photos at a demo of the hammer... not excellent. They make the hammers out of an alloy of two types of ceramic: Magnesium Oxide (MgO) and Zirconium Oxide (ZrO2). This is the ~same technology they use for the newer body armor. Its lighter than metal and pretty strong.

http://www.rso.cornell.edu/mrs/pictures/mall3.jpg

[Seraphim]

A vest designed to be bullet resistant is designed to be just that...BULLET RESISTANT. You can also get vests that are designed to stop knife/pointed objects...you can also get vests that protects from both.

[catchv22]

Also, shrapnel covers a large area and the body armor tends only to cover the head, front and back of the torso and sometimes the groin and shoulders. The shotgun effect of shrapnel would probably get to areas that are not protected like the face and the sides of the torso.

[dacanadianbomb]

Shrapnel also has the tendency to be extremely hot. Thus adding to the equation.

[sgt.pepper]

Also, shrapnel covers a large area and the body armor tends only to cover the head, front and back of the torso and sometimes the groin and shoulders. The shotgun effect of shrapnel would probably get to areas that are not protected like the face and the sides of the torsobut shrapnel could not defeat modern ceramic vest,if you compare rifle bullet to a shrapnel,the bullet has greater kinetic energy due to huge velocity and great amount of energy concentrated in the bullet itself .

[Seraphim]

Also, shrapnel covers a large area and the body armor tends only to cover the head, front and back of the torso and sometimes the groin and shoulders. The shotgun effect of shrapnel would probably get to areas that are not protected like the face and the sides of the torsobut shrapnel could not defeat modern ceramic vest,if you compare rifle bullet to a shrapnel,the bullet has greater kinetic energy due to huge velocity and great amount of energy concentrated in the bullet itself .


Its not like the SAPI is covering your entire body you know.

[catchv22]

My point was that shrapnel will hit areas not protected. I doubt they'd penetrate SAPI plates, but having SAPI plates still means you're vulnerable to shrapnel. Sorry if I was not clear enough.

[Mongrel]

And as mentioned by someone early on..overpressure, and other effects of
shock waves, and such can leave an almost intact body...With Burst lungs, ears, etc.

I can't think of any body armour that can help against that.

Cheers!
M.