What Europe should understand about the violence in Urumqi

[Fage]

23.07.2009 / 04:12 CET

Behind the brutality in China.

Slashed flesh. Cracked heads. Slit throats. Charred bodies littering the streets. These were the scenes in Urumqi on 5 July. There were also buses burnt down to their frames and shops smashed to rubble, but I will not dwell on these acts of lesser villainy.

By slaying 192 men and women of Han, Uighur and Hui ethnicity, the perpetrators of the recent violence in Urumqi, the capital of the Xinjiang region, staged an inhumane act of terror and committed crimes of savage brutality.

There is now evidence that this fanatical assault on innocent civilians was orchestrated by a separatist clique based outside China and organised by its branches inside the country.

Many of the assailants, after being captured by law-enforcement officials, were found to have flocked to the capital of Xinjiang from the south of the territory, a thousand miles away.

Before the incident, separatists based overseas issued calls for action – “without fear of sacrifice” – by internet or over the phone.

Does a conspiracy of such bloodthirstiness not warrant condemnation and a counter-strike? Is the effort by the Chinese government to restore social order not justified and worthy of the support of every just man and woman?

The Chinese people therefore naturally expected such condemnation and support from Europe. Many other countries sent such messages. We based that expectation on the knowledge that the spirit of humanism – and its compassion for life and peace – has been cherished in Europe since the Enlightenment. It was beyond our comprehension that anyone, in the face of the bloody atrocities in Urumqi, could look on nonchalantly as lives were lost, while voicing concerns energetically about the rights of criminals caught red-handed.

Europe's largely insouciant reaction is, I believe, partly the result of what, to our people, seemed outrageously lopsided reporting. In the aftermath of the incident, the European media focused mostly on the wailing of Uighur women, armed police on patrol and on the paltering of Rebiya Kadeer, a Uighur businesswoman jailed by the Chinese authorities in 2000 for endangering China's security. They also showed their rhetorical skills, leading to clichéd accusations about an absence of human rights in China.

I will not waste words here disputing this senseless stereotype. Here, I will ask only this: what about the rights of those slain, hospitalised, bereaved and dispossessed?

While it is a sense of frustration that has prompted me to write, fury at lopsided reporting has led my fellow citizens to pour out their feelings on the internet. Some say they will never again have any confidence in the Western media.

A similar sentiment prompted 350 people to post a protest against distorted reporting on a bulletin board at the Urumqi News Centre, an ad hoc facility set up by the Chinese authorities to assist foreign correspondents.

Reading Chinese blogs, which are unfortunately rendered inaccessible to European readers by language barriers, I found many moving stories of Han and Uighur people helping each other escape the thugs.

For example, two Uighur men protected with their bodies a police officer who had been knocked out, fending off not only bottles and stones, but also a looter who attempted to grab the officer's watch.

Checking out online surveys, I found 98% support for harsh punishment of the culprits and for the World Uighur Congress, of which Kadeer is president, to be labelled a terrorist group.

How I wish our European friends could gain such an unfiltered sense of the pulse of public opinion back in China.

However, neither sinister schemes nor slanders will prevent Xinjiang from moving forward.

The concerted efforts of all 47 ethnic groups in Xinjiang and the support of the whole Chinese nation will build a better future for the region.

An economy that is growing at a double-digit rate, numerous and large-scale construction projects, multi-lingual education and publications, 23,000 mosques in which to practise the Muslim religion, an administration in which more than half the civil servants come from ethnic minorities: these are among the reasons why Xinjiang will keep forging ahead, towards greater prosperity and harmony, and why it will remain a vibrant member of the Chinese family.

I believe that, like us, most Europeans wish the best for Xinjiang. I hope the torment and tragedy we witnessed this month will never happen again. I also hope people outside China will never again be misinformed in this way.

Song Zhe
Ambassador and head of the mission of the People's Republic of China to the EU
Brussels

Source:http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/imported/what-europe-should-understand-about-the-violence-in-urumqi/65578.aspx

[acosta]

confusing...

i am just wondering why chinese should care about what they are thinking? wat, you still need loans from them? comparing how much VW made from china's JV to the penny loans from EU, you will know how chinese government contribute in rebuilding united germany.

for many years, chinese government has been beautifying france and germany, and let VW's outdate technology monoply auto market, for like, 15 years, until US and japan car makers finally got in, and now suddenly starts to embrace "their" "unfairly" view of china? not to mention today chinese confumers are pooring money to release frech luxieries from financial crisis..

by the way, have you ever care how minority turkish are treated in germany? DW is even worse than CCTV in that case.

[Pille1234]

First of all, I have no clue what actually happend in China, however I have the choice to believe the western media, which are (politically) free and can report events in the way they like, although that does not necessarily need to be a fair and balanaced way. On the other hand I have the chinese state controlled media that is well known to report events in line with the communist party and that has ignored or silenced critical views in the past.
Add to that the typical comments about foreign provocations. I think it has to be the basic rule of dictatorship media spin to blame all internal strife and unrest on foreign agents. That doesn't make the Chinese position more convincing. So whom shall I believe now? A free China with independent news media would certainly help to gain credibility.

@acosta
Now I am confused too.

[5./FjgBtl610]

confusing...

i am just wondering why chinese should care about what they are thinking? wat, you still need loans from them? comparing how much VW made from china's JV to the penny loans from EU, you will know how chinese government contribute in rebuilding united germany.

for many years, chinese government has been beautifying france and germany, and let VW's outdate technology monoply auto market, for like, 15 years, until US and japan car makers finally got in, and now suddenly starts to embrace "their" "unfairly" view of china? not to mention today chinese confumers are pooring money to release frech luxieries from financial crisis..

by the way, have you ever care how minority turkish are treated in germany? DW is even worse than CCTV in that case.
rofl this made may day, you´re quite funny.

[TheMiddlePath]

First of all, I have no clue what actually happend in China, however I have the choice to believe the western media, which are (politically) free and can report events in the way they like, although that does not necessarily need to be a fair and balanaced way. On the other hand I have the chinese state controlled media that is well known to report events in line with the communist party and that has ignored or silenced critical views in the past.
Add to that the typical comments about foreign provocations. I think it has to be the basic rule of dictatorship media spin to blame all internal strife and unrest on foreign agents. That doesn't make the Chinese position more convincing. So whom shall I believe now? A free China with independent news media would certainly help to gain credibility.

@acosta
Now I am confused too.

I am not confused.
I have a few websites showing outright Lies by Western media that can fill the entire military photo forum.

[BloodyTalon]

confusing...

i am just wondering why chinese should care about what they are thinking? wat, you still need loans from them? comparing how much VW made from china's JV to the penny loans from EU, you will know how chinese government contribute in rebuilding united germany.

for many years, chinese government has been beautifying france and germany, and let VW's outdate technology monoply auto market, for like, 15 years, until US and japan car makers finally got in, and now suddenly starts to embrace "their" "unfairly" view of china? not to mention today chinese confumers are pooring money to release frech luxieries from financial crisis..

by the way, have you ever care how minority turkish are treated in germany? DW is even worse than CCTV in that case.
VW...outdated technology...according to a Chinese user...

rofl oh sure, the rest of that post is concentrated stupidity but that particular line takes the cake.

[King of the Grey]

its very interesting to see the more hostile reactions to Western media by some Chinese poster, and how some Western posters would completely regard everything coming from China as propaganda and spin. :bash:


rofl oh sure, the rest of that post is concentrated stupidity but that particular line takes the cake.

completely agree!

[shadowsrider]

The value of information provided by Chinese government is close to zero.
Too long I've been living in communist country to belelieve this ****.
I do not say that I know what happened there because I don't know. Simply I am warning everyone to believe this text. It is simply too "beautiful": 2 harmonic societies, good people defending each other and some evil thugs.

If you see documentary movie: 'Up the Yangtze' you'll understand. There was an area to be flooded by a dam and some 2 million people mainly peasant had to be relocated.
American excursions were shown the beatiful houses for future relocatees: TVs, air conditioning etc.
Reality was that majority of poeple was put into some slums and rewarded with ridiculus amount of 200 yuan.
So simply official messages are worthless.

[acosta]

VW...outdated technology...according to a Chinese user...

rofl oh sure, the rest of that post is concentrated stupidity but that particular line takes the cake.


thanks to your "stupidity", cakes' doubled.

would you please check out VW's financial reports in these years and see how much was made from china JVs?

and do a little research and find out how VW 80's Santana flooded chinese market before 2000 and this OUTDATE contributes to globla warming. how responsible are you as a global citizen?

[derkrieger]

"
I also hope people outside China will never again be misinformed in this way.
"
Thank you Mr. Ambassador.
It is a good and constructive step, that you now have pledged publicly not to write a party-controlled comment again.
Thank you.

EDIT:
It would be great tho, if you could kindly talk more about "the demolition of the ancient city of Kashgar" and "the ongoing demographic intervention done on behalf of government, to change the ethnic profile of the strategically important state".
so much for the democratic China (!!!!)

[acosta]

The value of information provided by Chinese government is close to zero.
Too long I've been living in communist country to belelieve this ****.
I do not say that I know what happened there because I don't know. Simply I am warning everyone to believe this text. It is simply too "beautiful": 2 harmonic societies, good people defending each other and some evil thugs.

If you see documentary movie: 'Up the Yangtze' you'll understand. There was an area to be flooded by a dam and some 2 million people mainly peasant had to be relocated.
American excursions were shown the beatiful houses for future relocatees: TVs, air conditioning etc.
Reality was that majority of poeple was put into some slums and rewarded with ridiculus amount of 200 yuan.
So simply official messages are worthless.

Great.

the united states of MNLs(including great company of VW and Rio Tinto) and Bureaucrats, people are the fishes.

by the way, Siemen's a huge scandal. and GE so hate it.

[hulaku]

Great.

the united states of MNLs(including great company of VW and Rio Tinto) and Bureaucrats, people are the fishes.

by the way, Siemen's a huge scandal. and GE so hate it.

Can you please explain in English?

[RSone]

Great.

the united states of MNLs(including great company of VW and Rio Tinto) and Bureaucrats, people are the fishes.

by the way, Siemen's a huge scandal. and GE so hate it.


Sure, we can't have a multi-facetted media experience of what's going in China, due to the reasons the Ambassador already mentioned, but people like you aren't exactly helping improve the situation either.

However, I cannot help but notice, your knowledge of Europe isn't exactly up to scratch either. Since when are the only two countries in Europe, Germany and France? And a Chinese poster ragging on Western Big Business while he's from a state with a guided economy beneficial to the operations of that exact same Big Business? Pot calling the kettle black, and all that good stuff...

[acosta]

Sure, we can't have a multi-facetted media experience of what's going in China, due to the reasons the Ambassador already mentioned, but people like you aren't exactly helping improve the situation either.

However, I cannot help but notice, your knowledge of Europe isn't exactly up to scratch either. Since when are the only two countries in Europe, Germany and France? And a Chinese poster ragging on Western Big Business while he's from a state with a guided economy beneficial to the operations of that exact same Big Business? Pot calling the kettle black, and all that good stuff...

do you really read into the post? it's the average people's interest in china, hurt by big multinationals, with the help of their government.

two sides of the game:

chinese people (low and middle class)

v.s.

chinese government and multinational busniess

and by the way, i am not from "a state with a guided economy", you better say i am from "bankrupt california", or even further from "riot thailand", i am just a guy with chinese heritage, and respect of this great gift from my ancestor. and i happen to work in a company with heavy chinese operation.

[Dartthedark]

I 'd reluctantly give my credit to his honesty if his speech just a bit off the official lines.

[Steak-Sauce]

confusing...

i am just wondering why chinese should care about what they are thinking? wat, you still need loans from them? comparing how much VW made from china's JV to the penny loans from EU, you will know how chinese government contribute in rebuilding united germany.

for many years, chinese government has been beautifying france and germany, and let VW's outdate technology monoply auto market, for like, 15 years, until US and japan car makers finally got in, and now suddenly starts to embrace "their" "unfairly" view of china? not to mention today chinese confumers are pooring money to release frech luxieries from financial crisis..

by the way, have you ever care how minority turkish are treated in germany? DW is even worse than CCTV in that case.

You Sir should explain yourself. Please, with sources und allem drum und dran.

Just some questions on my side:
VW's technology is outdated?
China contributed to a united Germany?
What the heck has the Turkish minority in Germany to do with this topic??
Why is Siemens a huge scandal?

Questions, questions. I would be happy if you can provide me proper answers. Thanks in advance.

With regards.

[Dexx]

You Sir should explain yourself. Please, with sources und allem drum und dran.

Just some questions on my side:
VW's technology is outdated?
China contributed to a united Germany?
What the heck has the Turkish minority in Germany to do with this topic??
Why is Siemens a huge scandal?

Questions, questions. I would be happy if you can provide me proper answers. Thanks in advance.

With regards.

Why do you even bother him? If you read some of the other Chinese poster on here you would realize that they make things up and spread blatant lies in order push you to defend your position. That is a typical instrument in discussions to silence the other side, best applied in oppressive dictatorships.

Now for the Chinese on here and to play their game a little bit further: The oppressive Han Chinese nationalists try to marginalize the distinct minorities in China which should have the right for self-determination. They are not (Han) Chinese, they are different.

[Steak-Sauce]

Why do you even bother him? If you read some of the other Chinese poster on here you would realize that they make things up and spread blatant lies in order push you to defend your position. That is a typical instrument in discussions to silence the other side, best applied in oppressive dictatorships.

Hm, fair enough. Haven't thought about it while writing. Damn, they got me!p-)

[BloodyTalon]

thanks to your "stupidity", cakes' doubled.

would you please check out VW's financial reports in these years and see how much was made from china JVs?

and do a little research and find out how VW 80's Santana flooded chinese market before 2000 and this OUTDATE contributes to globla warming. how responsible are you as a global citizen?
First of all, I dunno what rock you've been living under but VW never needed China to bail them out of any financial woes; it's one of the few companies that has been consistently making a good profit in both the European and North American markets since the late 40's. The fact that Volkwagen-Shanghai was still making and selling Passat B2s while everyone else was driving Beetles and Golfs wasn't the main reason Germany united and East Germany was brought up on its feat economically.

As for VW cars being "outdated"...let me put it this way; this is the crash test for a VW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gix7ymymhTo

This is a chinese car performing the same crash test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A

[acosta]

You Sir should explain yourself. Please, with sources und allem drum und dran.

Just some questions on my side:
VW's technology is outdated?
China contributed to a united Germany?
What the heck has the Turkish minority in Germany to do with this topic??
Why is Siemens a huge scandal?

Questions, questions. I would be happy if you can provide me proper answers. Thanks in advance.

With regards.

well, i would like to answer, the other poster are not fair commenting me, please know that.

1.VW's has been using 80's santana in china market since 1985-now, i know you even never heard this car as it's too old. passat was a story in late 1990s. this dumping outdated strategy is common among multinationals, but it did lose groud to american and japanese car makers this years as they are pushing new model cars to china.

2.china's had been stuburnly support German unification since WWII as china itself has this problem,despite, german government's xonstantly meeting Dalai Lama, providing Urghur seperists base in south germany. you can check history how these 2 countries treating each other. on the other hand, Germany was the most successful player benefiting from china's open and reform. this had been so till several years ago(2004?).

3. turkish in Germany refers to minority policies, this is just a example applying to all countries. do you give special previlege to them. like you limit every han chinese having one child, and urghurs can have 10 kids. the government favor way towards urghurs.

4. Siemens has been bribing heavily in china. the US government just fined it last year, (1 billion $, i don't remember). but in china, it's still protected by goverment.

thanks for the questions, i hope you just understand it's the people(mostly han chinese low and midclass) that suffered from all unfairness.


say to the other posters: please use argument, this is a fine forum, rant but not balantly smearing.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Given China's reputation for brutality and control of the press they have as much credibility as Iran at the moment so its little wonder Europeans have trouble accepting the Chinese version of events.

[hulaku]

how chinese government contribute in rebuilding united germany.

for many years, chinese government has been beautifying france and germany,

This is their contribution



Germany is under attack from an increasing number of state-backed Chinese spying operations that are costing the German economy tens of billions of euros a year, a leading intelligence agent said.

Walter Opfermann, an espionage protection expert in the office for counter-intelligence for the state of Baden-Württemberg, said that China was using an array of "polished methods" from old-fashioned spies to phone-tapping, and increasingly the internet to steal industrial secrets.

He said methods had become "extremely sophisticated" to the extent that China, which employs a million intelligence agents, was now capable of "sabotaging whole chunks of infrastructure" such as Germany's power grid. "This poses a danger not just for Germany but for critical infrastructure worldwide," he said.


Complete story http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/22/germany-china-industrial-espionage

PS: I think this was posted elsewhere but im just posting it here in context of the discussion

[Steak-Sauce]

Sorry Dexx, couldn't resist. I enjoy it.p-)


well, i would like to answer, the other poster are not fair commenting me, please know that.

1.VW's has been using 80's santana in china market since 1985-now, i know you even never heard this car as it's too old. passat was a story in late 1990s. this dumping outdated strategy is common among multinationals, but it did lose groud to american and japanese car makers this years as they are pushing new model cars to china.
Sir, I wonder how you can say that I never heard about this car. I have. Be careful with such statements. I'm also well aware of the Passat (and its many versions), because my father is driving it.
Imo, this was no dumping strategy by VW. The Santana was very succesful, both in China and Brazil for example, otherwise there wouldn't have been a facelift for Chinese Santanas. Afaik, they are still used with great success as taxis in your country. Correct me if I'm wrong.


2.china's had been stuburnly support German unification since WWII as china itself has this problem,despite, german government's xonstantly meeting Dalai Lama, providing Urghur seperists base in south germany. you can check history how these 2 countries treating each other. on the other hand, Germany was the most successful player benefiting from china's open and reform. this had been so till several years ago(2004?).
What's wrong with German government meeting the Dalai Lama? It is up to our politicians who they shake hands with. Certainly, this didn't provide any "Urghur seperists base in south germany" (sic!). I'm living in southern Germany and haven't seen any seperatists from China here, sorry.
Germany is still benefiting from China, because China's market became much more open to the whole world. That's not just Germany, and please, provide me a source which shows me the Chinese involvement / support to a German unification.


3. turkish in Germany refers to minority policies, this is just a example applying to all countries. do you give special previlege to them. like you limit every han chinese having one child, and urghurs can have 10 kids. the government favor way towards urghurs.
Well, last time I checked there was no "child-limit" here, not for Germans, nor Turkish or French or whatever people. A minority in Germany has basically the same privileges as everyone else. So nothing to worry about.


4. Siemens has been bribing heavily in china. the US government just fined it last year, (1 billion $, i don't remember). but in china, it's still protected by goverment.
Yes, I've read about a bribing scandal involving the upper management of Siemens. Many high-ranks lost their job due to stupidity, but a few hot-heads don't make the high quality products bad, or?
Have a look at this link I just found in the world wide web: Is It Bribery, or Business As Usual in China? (http://english.caijing.com.cn/2007-09-20/100043152.html)
Yes, Siemens did it wrong, but as you said, it's still protected by your government, because it's nothing new.
Another point is, if you criticize German companies, than I may criticise Chinese companies.. In the automobile industry, a Chinese trend is to copy foreign cars, like the BMW X5 or the Smart for example. That is no simple bias about China, but proven fact. BMW wants to sue the Chinese manufacturer, and as you can see in BloodyTalon's Youtube videos, they even fail in highly important terms of security.
German businesses are in fact dealing with a high rate of plagiarism by Chinese businesses. I saw a documentary one year ago about the German Zoll (customs police) conducting searches on an exhibition for Chinese products, which were simple (and rather bad) copies of WMF and other manufactureres.

However, our discussion has nothing to do with the topic. Europe is simply concerned about the recent rampages in this particular province. And honestly, I give as much credit to Western media reports as I give to Chinese media reports.

Regards.

[StinkyStreet]

.

If you see documentary movie: 'Up the Yangtze' you'll understand. There was an area to be flooded by a dam and some 2 million people mainly peasant had to be relocated.
.

I think you're problem is Right vs Left nothing else, and some Poles tend to have knee jerk anti-left reactions I suppose part of it comes from having to put up with those Russian commies for decades and part of it comes from listening to the Kaczynski idiots

China has over a billion to look after, its doing ok and a lot different and a lot more progressive than it was 20 year ago

if it gets 2 million out of living in dirty, peasantry and superstitious religious huts then good for them

They now have education, medicines, running water, highways, electricity, security which is a lot better off than their 'Islamic brother' living across the border in Asscrackistan
If Urumqi would be better off under some theocratic Islamic law tell me why the other side of the argument, Taiwan, a fierce critic of China has always insisted the territory is Chinese

Care to explain why Taiwan also lays claim to the Xinjiang Uyghur Region? If China was not communist none of you would give a flying f*ck about that sandhole with the Great Wall running through it

[acosta]

What's wrong with German government meeting the Dalai Lama? It is up to our politicians who they shake hands with. Certainly, this didn't provide any "Urghur seperists base in south germany" (sic!). I'm living in southern Germany and haven't seen any seperatists from China here, sorry.
Germany is still benefiting from China, because China's market became much more open to the whole world. That's not just Germany, and please, provide me a source which shows me the Chinese involvement / support to a German unification.

(world uyghur congress) the organisation itself is based primarily in Munich, Germany, where a large Uyghur diaspora lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Uyghur_Congress
you can also visit their website.


Well, last time I checked there was no "child-limit" here, not for Germans, nor Turkish or French or whatever people. A minority in Germany has basically the same privileges as everyone else. So nothing to worry about.

and now you can sence how han chinese feel from this unfairness.



Another point is, if you criticize German companies, than I may criticise Chinese companies.. In the automobile industry, a Chinese trend is to copy foreign cars, like the BMW X5 or the Smart for example. That is no simple bias about China, but proven fact. BMW wants to sue the Chinese manufacturer, and as you can see in BloodyTalon's Youtube videos, they even fail in highly important terms of security.
German businesses are in fact dealing with a high rate of plagiarism by Chinese businesses. I saw a documentary one year ago about the German Zoll (customs police) conducting searches on an exhibition for Chinese products, which were simple (and rather bad) copies of WMF and other manufactureres.

my bad, i really feel sorry for chinese companies's wrongdoing. let us hope things things improve soon. i once in anther thread said it's a painful failure from china's 20 years econ reform, and people lost their power of innovation and china will lose its future if things sustain.

by the way, thank you for these questions and nice discussion. i appreciate you attitude, well in most chinese's impression, a decent german, means "logical, earnstness and seriousness". Karl Maxx, Friedrich Engels,Bach,beethoven, your ancestor earned this credit, and i am just hope german media and politicion,even business will still take this honor.

[acosta]

to Steak-Sauce:

this is my view of today's china. dig out from MP's dust for you review.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=159976

china is lagging behind what it should offer the world. yeah, china has made goods cheap, lowered world inflation, benefit the poor around the world. and it's also fuel the financial crisis. but a country as the mass of china, it should be human being's main assets instead of major liability, which china has been for several hundrud years when anglo-saxons took the lead from far east since 1700s or earlier. i know it's shifting back now, but slightly into lost, or just the zigzag way?

the weak link of china's sucess is lack of innovation and deterioration of corrupted social values, just give an exemple, shuimo, you ever heard any scientific novels or scientific tv serial like the X files? like lost? like matrix? today's china is focusing on making money, and doesn't encourge young people to venture into dangerious forefront of everything... inside china, name a few writers, doctors, and scientists, and compare them to their early generations in 1980, does it upset you? i know social phenominon has swing effect, i just hope for the next 20 years, china get back on the track ...

[Solvent]

Just quick update to the Urumqi riot. 715 suspects have been arrested. Currently they are waiting for trials. Nice and quick move to the government.
Like I said before, criminals will be punished.

[derkrieger]

I bet none of them will be Han chinese.
BTW
Turks in Germany would not qualify as a minority as of now at least. They are guest-workers.
Maybe in a few generation time this will happen tho.
On the other side, Uighur have been living there for what 2 thousand years?

[Solvent]

I bet none of them will be Han chinese.
BTW
Turks in Germany would not qualify as a minority as of now at least. They are guest-workers.
Maybe in a few generation time this will happen tho.
On the other side, Uighur have been living there for what 2 thousand years?

There are Han Chinese among those suspects, although no very clear distribution given yet. You lost your bet.

Other minorities and Han people have been living even longer than Uighurs in the area. Nothing special about it.

[Ulytau]

BloodyTalon (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=11277)

As i remember from a news or a program about cars when Mercedes staying aganist electric drill,a car which looking like Mercedes ''of course copy'' cant stay aganist a simple nail and hammer.''Program maker drill the car without hammer with nail too''

Kind of letter wont be surprise cause today all Europe have serious trade power and buying good from the China of course,if we speakin about the historical background but also same time this countries fight aganist China at Korean War too..

Anyways dear ambassador can you give us any info about the Ilham Tohti too cause this man was working for dialogue between Han Chinese and Uyghur people;

Info about him;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilham_Tohti


Chinese intellectuals call for release of Uighur



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090714/ap_on_re_as/as_china_outspoken_uighur_2

I hope they will explain us what happen at Guandong Toy Factory too,anyways if they lookin about the suspects first they need to check about the newspapers who made the propaganda cause as i read they really became effective about issues.

[derkrieger]

There are Han Chinese among those suspects, although no very clear distribution given yet. You lost your bet.

Other minorities and Han people have been living even longer than Uighurs in the area. Nothing special about it.
numbers. figures are important. How many Han were arrested? Do you have any info on that?

[Solvent]

numbers. figures are important. How many Han were arrested? Do you have any info on that?

Not yet, just total number available now.

[liyi5598]

这个帖子非常无聊，建立在西方是公正及公平的基础上。这个立场，简直就是被西方给洗脑了。
This post is so boring. It's based on the assumption that westens are honesty and justice as they are trying to let the world belive. It's brain washed by westen media.

作为个体，西方也有好人，但是他们的精英以及媒体，是敌视中国的。
Even the individuals of westen are not so bad, the westen politics and elites include the medias, are hostile to China, because of the political system, the huge size of territory and population, and because of the skin color.

狗改不了吃屎的毛病，西方社会改不了邪恶本质。犹太人的成功，曾经给他们招来杀生之祸。西方社会对中国的态度，就是70年前对犹太人的态度。
The westen societies are as evil as they were 70 years ago, when Jews' success brought the fate of massacre. The westens views our Chinese the same they viewed Jews 70 years ago. No any progress.

走自己的路，让别人说去吧。落后国家崛起之路，从来就没有平坦大路的。请诸位丢掉幻想吧。
Don't waste too much time in the forum. The Jews couldn't get survived by persuading the murders 70 years ago.

The westens neither like Muslin, nor Turkish, but they like Chinese being killed by Muslin and Turkish.

[hulaku]

^^ What have you been smoking crybaby?

Post only in English here as it is an English language forum.

[liyi5598]

Accoring the notice, other languages with English translation is OK in this forum.

[hulaku]

The westens neither like Muslin, nor Turkish, but they like Chinese being killed by Muslin and Turkish.

But westen love Chinese crybaby.

[StinkyStreet]

I bet none of them will be Han chinese.
BTW
Turks in Germany would not qualify as a minority as of now at least. They are guest-workers.
Maybe in a few generation time this will happen tho.
On the other side, Uighur have been living there for what 2 thousand years?


Pre-Islamic Xinjiang and post Islamic Xinjiang are two completely different people, one was a society with lots tradition, lots of cultures, learning
the other a typical breed of Islam intolerant of other cultures and done a lot of things like killing non-believers and blowing up Buddhist statues.

It doesn't matter what part of the world you go to, London, Madrid, NYC, Thailand, Nigeria you'll find a bunch of these idiots not integrating with their host nation or extremists trying to covert or kill non-believers

The Muslim faith and its Jihad didn't spread into Uighur land until about the 13th Century, about the same time they were sending their violent jihad across India

So yes China, the Tangs, Buddhism and Christianity and all that other stuff was there long before Islamic Jihad was there
and as per usual some of the 'minority' has succeed in infecting the place with subsidized Mosques and religious extremism and almost succeeded in booting out all other cultures.

If Mecca is such a funky,progressive and open-minded place I think its time to repatriate all these idiots back to their true heavenly homeland

[Steak-Sauce]

The westens neither like Muslin, nor Turkish, but they like Chinese being killed by Muslin and Turkish.

None of us "westeners" like Chinese being killed. No matter if they are Han, Urghur, whatever. I hope you do understand this.

And to say that we view Chinese the same way some Nazi scumbags viewed the Jews 70 years ago is just ridiculous!:cantbeli:

[Elbs]

The westen societies are as evil as they were 70 years ago, when Jews' success brought the fate of massacre. The westens views our Chinese the same they viewed Jews 70 years ago. No any progress.

Christ Almighty what are you on?

[CS1.6]

Why do you even bother him? If you read some of the other Chinese poster on here you would realize that they make things up and spread blatant lies in order push you to defend your position. That is a typical instrument in discussions to silence the other side, best applied in oppressive dictatorships.

Now for the Chinese on here and to play their game a little bit further: The oppressive Han Chinese nationalists try to marginalize the distinct minorities in China which should have the right for self-determination. They are not (Han) Chinese, they are different.

hi, please dont hate the Chinese posters here so much, i am one of them, and most of us are independant posters and are not working for our gov. as you assumed;

communications between poeple from different countries with different social system should be considered a good thing, also sinsere and serious communications make this forum more meaningful.

though most of us even could not speak English very well, but at least we are trying to exchange ideas and makes serious conversations;

so if you have any problems with any Chinese's post here, you could say something to him, but you don't have to go against the whole Chinese posters;

that's what i think.

[derkrieger]

Pre-Islamic Xinjiang and post Islamic Xinjiang are two completely different people, one was a society with lots tradition, lots of cultures, learning
the other a typical breed of Islam intolerant of other cultures and done a lot of things like killing non-believers and blowing up Buddhist statues.

It doesn't matter what part of the world you go to, London, Madrid, NYC, Thailand, Nigeria you'll find a bunch of these idiots not integrating with their host nation or extremists trying to covert or kill non-believers

The Muslim faith and its Jihad didn't spread into Uighur land until about the 13th Century, about the same time they were sending their violent jihad across India

So yes China, the Tangs, Buddhism and Christianity and all that other stuff was there long before Islamic Jihad was there
and as per usual some of the 'minority' has succeed in infecting the place with subsidized Mosques and religious extremism and almost succeeded in booting out all other cultures.

If Mecca is such a funky,progressive and open-minded place I think its time to repatriate all these idiots back to their true heavenly homeland

bull****, what you say are the events of the last 10 years and Uighur movement, legal or not, had and has got nothing to do with this scum called wahhabists, till very recently.
Uighurs are moslem for ages right now BTW.
I for one would not like too see the exploitation of Uighur minority by the enemies of China, but China should quit fearing this unimportant minority and let them live according to their own tradition in their own land, under the banner of China, as equal citizens of China.
But crap like the ethnical re-balancing of the region has been going on full throttle. Han chinese have been paid better wages etc. so that they will settle in the area.

China love your Uighurs and care them, and the problem will vanish itself. You are a superpower FFS !!!!

[derkrieger]

hi, please dont hate the Chinese posters here so much, i am one of them, and most of us are independant posters and are not working for our gov. as you assumed;

communications between poeple from different countries with different social system should be considered a good thing, also sinsere and serious communications make this forum more meaningful.

though most of us even could not speak English very well, but at least we are trying to exchange ideas and makes serious conversations;

so if you have any problems with any Chinese's post here, you could say something to him, but you don't have to go against the whole Chinese posters;

that's what i think.
maybe not all but most of them are quick at throwing here and there cheap-shots trying to make the Uighur look like islamic terrorists and synchronizedly failing to hide their racial bias against this minorty.
So put the blame on your friends.
thanks

[BloodyTalon]

这个帖子非常无聊，建立在西方是公正及公平的基础上。这个立场，简直就是被西方给洗脑了。
This post is so boring. It's based on the assumption that westens are honesty and justice as they are trying to let the world belive. It's brain washed by westen media.

作为个体，西方也有好人，但是他们的精英以及媒体，是敌视中国的。
Even the individuals of westen are not so bad, the westen politics and elites include the medias, are hostile to China, because of the political system, the huge size of territory and population, and because of the skin color.

狗改不了吃屎的毛病，西方社会改不了邪恶本质。犹太人的成功，曾经给他们招来杀生之祸。西方社会对中国的态度，就是70年前对犹太人的态度。
The westen societies are as evil as they were 70 years ago, when Jews' success brought the fate of massacre. The westens views our Chinese the same they viewed Jews 70 years ago. No any progress.

走自己的路，让别人说去吧。看一看第一次世界大战，德国的“告文明社会书”，落后国家崛起之路，从来就没有平坦大路的。请诸位丢掉幻想吧。
Don't waste too much time in the forum. The Jews couldn't get survived by persuading the murders 70 years ago.

The westens neither like Muslin, nor Turkish, but they like Chinese being killed by Muslin and Turkish.
rofl dear God, for a nation that's claiming to be the next great superpower you guys sure do love to bitch and moan like a girl on her first period whenever someone doesn't agree with the actions of your government. Harden the **** up, liyi.

[cn_habs]

rofl dear God, for a nation that's claiming to be the next great superpower you guys sure do love to bitch and moan like a girl on her first period whenever someone doesn't agree with the actions of your government. Harden the **** up, liyi.

He's just as extreme as some posters here that think all/most Chinese posters are on the government's payroll.

PLAINLY RIDICULOUS.

[Derfeuermann]

He's just as extreme as some posters here that think all/most Chinese posters are on the government's payroll.

PLAINLY RIDICULOUS.
stupid post.
they should quit behaving LIKE they are on the payroll of their government then.

[Solvent]

He's just as extreme as some posters here that think all/most Chinese posters are on the government's payroll.

PLAINLY RIDICULOUS.

His problem is not patient enough to observe who is bad-intended and overreact to the baits. I highly suggest that to read first and keep discuss civilian.

[CS1.6]

maybe not all but most of them are quick at throwing here and there cheap-shots trying to make the Uighur look like islamic terrorists and synchronizedly failing to hide their racial bias against this minorty.
So put the blame on your friends.
thanks


when thousands of uyghurs walking on the street and kill every Han Chinese they meet with stone, they are no difference between terrorists, and actually many uyghurs were trained in A-stan by Ai-qaida, Urumqi in the past ten years has been suffered by uyghur terrorism;

uyghur has been a big big trouble in our nation, there are 55 minority group in China, none is as cruel as uyghurs;

if you know something about China, you will know the fact that in every city of China, big or small, there are so many uyghur thieves, so when talking about uyghurs, other Chinese would think about thieves; if you have some friends in China, you can confirm this with them;

If all of you love uyghur so much, your nation could have them, and i am sure the uyghurs love to go to western countries, and China will not stop them, we did not stop the 60000 uyghurs get out of China and went to Soviet Union in 1962, would be stupid if not let those trouble makers getting out China.

Germany need a lot of foreign workers and then they get 2 million Turkish, and considering Turkish claim to be the same people with Uyghurs, so why not introduce in another 2 millions of Uyghurs? and this could also show your love to them, if germany could do this, all of the Chinese would thank Germany, both Uyghurs and Han Chinese.

[Steak-Sauce]

when thousands of uyghurs walking on the street and kill every Han Chinese they meet with stone, they are no difference between terrorists, and actually many uyghurs were trained in A-stan by Ai-qaida, Urumqi in the past ten years has been suffered by uyghur terrorism;
Sorry, but who believes in these fairytales?
Yes, video footage showed an angry mob in the streets, killing people, however the Han Chinese aren't innocent! They took up stones, too! Furthermore, there seems to be no news what triggered the whole incident, namely the death of two Urghurs at a toy factory (?).
And if you state that "many" (please define many. 10? 100? 1000? Millions?) Urghurs were trained in Afghan terror camps, you sure can give me a source for your claim.


uyghur has been a big big trouble in our nation, there are 55 minority group in China, none is as cruel as uyghurs;

if you know something about China, you will know the fact that in every city of China, big or small, there are so many uyghur thieves, so when talking about uyghurs, other Chinese would think about thieves; if you have some friends in China, you can confirm this with them;
I have no friends in China, only one in Japan, sorry. But isn't this a bias against all Urghurs? An example: Just because a drunken mob of German soccers fans seriously injured a French policeman in 2000 (?), not all French regard us as blood-thirsty killers. In your case, it's simply wrong to say "All Urghurs are bad, thieves, and cruel!" If you treat them like second-rate beings, well, than they might are not very friendly to you.


If all of you love uyghur so much, your nation could have them, and i am sure the uyghurs love to go to western countries, and China will not stop them, we did not stop the 60000 uyghurs get out of China and went to Soviet Union in 1962, would be stupid if not let those trouble makers getting out China.

Germany need a lot of foreign workers and then they get 2 million Turkish, and considering Turkish claim to be the same people with Uyghurs, so why not introduce in another 2 millions of Uyghurs? and this could also show your love to them, if germany could do this, all of the Chinese would thank Germany, both Uyghurs and Han Chinese.
To compare 60.000 Urghurs to 2 million Urghurs is... nice. What do you want to do? Tell all Urghurs they can't stay in China anymore and force them to leave for Germany??

What about krieger's idea?

(...) but China should quit fearing this unimportant minority and let them live according to their own tradition in their own land, under the banner of China, as equal citizens of China.

That's really perfect, this discussion just takes on the thread title: What Europe should understand about the violence in Urumqi.
I would say that 99,99% of Europe haven't even heard about Urumqi, Han and Urghurs before the riots started. Europe (and me) is confused about the whole situation there. Who can we trust? Our (western) media? God knows they are sensationel and supersize informations. Your media? God knows it is controlled by your party and not open to government critique.

What do you know about Rebiya Kadeer?

My only source is the internet, and the Wikipedia article (yeah, I know..) basically states that she lost all influence and wealth (she was among the top five richest persons in the PRC) after she openly critcized the Chinese government for the happenings in Gulja, 1997, in which the PLA crushed an Urghur demonstration. After that and her release from prison due to health issues and political pressure by the US, Kadeer became the PRC's "public enemy number 1", so it seems.
Accused to be a spy, accused that she triggered the whole riots from outside, etc. etc.

I bet your state media tells you something different. And that is the problem. Some Chinese (there are quite a few on this board) strongly believe in their media and give a **** about the rest of the world's media, saying everything else isn't true, and anti-Chinese. We, on the other hand, know exactly that your government-controlled media just tell the news, which put China into the good and shiny light.

To find a solution, you can not send all Urghurs out of China. It is their country too. You have to find a peaceful way, equal conversations without biases involving Han Chinese and Urghurs.
However, if you (China) doesn't want to talk and simply enforce your will (through the arms of the PLA for example), these bloody riots will happen again and again, and terrorism can erupt as well. If you treat them like "evil seperatists hating all Han Chinese", be sure they will act as seperatists in good time.

My 15 €uro cents.

[CS1.6]

Sorry, but who believes in these fairytales?
Yes, video footage showed an angry mob in the streets, killing people, however the Han Chinese aren't innocent! They took up stones, too! Furthermore, there seems to be no news what triggered the whole incident, namely the death of two Urghurs at a toy factory (?).
And if you state that "many" (please define many. 10? 100? 1000? Millions?) Urghurs were trained in Afghan terror camps, you sure can give me a source for your claim.----------------

sorry, i dont need the video tells me what happened, you know why? my hometown is Urumqi, my whole family lives there, many of my friends live there, right now i am not in Urumqi, i am working in the coast area of China, so i know exactly what happened, the uyghurs go to streets first, to draw the attention of the police, the police thought it's just a parade; however, the parade was just a cover, the uyghurs sent many detachments go to the little streets and start the killing; at that day the local cell phone signal was terrible, i was so worried about my family and i made more than 100 phone calls but just cant get through, finally my parents called me and said they cant go home from where they work, coz the streets were dangerous from Han people, uyghurs killing a lot of people. and you said the Han Chinese aren't innercent coz they took up the stones? oh my god, when some people are killing you, will you just laid down and let them do it？？they are defending themselves from not being killed by the terrorist.

as to how many uyghurs get trained in A-stan, i cant give you a number, go ask your American ally and they will tell yo the uyghurs are not just doing some sight-seeing in A-stan.

you know what? it's really easy for you to critisize China for mistreated the uyghurs, and you dont give a sh!t about how many innocent Han Chinese were slaughtered, but i just want to ask you two question:

1, what if in your country a group of people walking on the streets and kill another certain group of people randomly and cruelly, what will you do with the people who are killing?

2, what if some of your family/ friend be killed by those rioters??
---------------------------------------------------------------------

totally there were 197 people dead in the riots, among which 156 was totally innocent: Han 134, Huei 11, uygher 10, Man 1, more than 1680 Han Chinese was hurt, most of them were hurt in the head by heave stones.

41 rioters killed by the policemen.

if you refuse to belive these numbers then i am not surprised at all,

you are lucky since these things will not happen in your country, you are lucky when you walking on the streets you will not be killed by other people who dont even know you. but this does not mean that you could just sit back and take a coffee to judge the innocent who are killed and then said you are worried about the "human right" of the rioters.

i feel bad, real bad for the people that are killed, hurted in my hometown, what did they do wrong?

[Solvent]

[QUOTE=CS1.6;4319022...[/QUOTE]

I really don't care what outside people have to say about it. I am just concerned what the government will do next.

[liyi5598]

None of us "westeners" like Chinese being killed. No matter if they are Han, Urghur, whatever. I hope you do understand this.

And to say that we view Chinese the same way some Nazi scumbags viewed the Jews 70 years ago is just ridiculous!:cantbeli:

Sorry for using wrong examples as Jews, I just didn't want to use the examples below, to challenge the deep evil steteotype impressions, or to bring some bad links with China.

In westen's hypocritic rule, the enemy countries' citizens have no human rights. Like Han Chinese in Urumuqi in 2009, like Serbs in Kosovo in 1997, and also like the expulsed Germans in 1945-1948. The westens really have no progress in 70 years.

In 1997 when Yugoslavia remained the last communist country in Europe, the Serbs lost their human rights.
In a BBC's report, it said that Serb community comprised around 200,000 - 10% of Kosovo's population, and an estimated 100,000 to 150,000 expelled from Kosovo.
The Serbs were the citizen of an evil communist country, so they deserved the expel.
Here is the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/365755.stm
BBC used the title "Serb civilians MAY flee Kosovo“. The word "MAY" is so impressive to me, the tears, bloods or even lifes of 100,000 to 150,000 human beings are gorgeously ignored.

As an unluck country also suffering Muslin terror attacks, it's comman sense that another article, "Serbs and Roma flee KLA terror in Kosovo" MAY be more close to the truth of "how the Serbs MAY be expelled from Kosovo".
Here is the line:http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/aug1999/kla-a20.shtml

I think todays Germans are so lucky than they were 70 years ago. Germans are finally being accepted as westen and finally got the human right of being survived.
The Germans in 1945-1948 were so unlucky, even though the World War II was already finished, 12 million Germans were expelled from their homeland and caused 500,000 to 600,000　individuals deaths in the course of the expulsion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

This example is only used to make your shallow Germany brain to understand the situation, the westen's hypocritic rule that enemy's citizen has no human rights.

I use this example, neither means I have any sympathise to those Germans casualties, nor do I want to advocate justice to them. I just don't care of their miseries, the evil country's supporters by default.

I can understand you, and most westens' feeling to the murdered Han Chinese in Urumuqi. You may think, those evil communist's supporters by default, they were served of that. Just as most view the expelled Germans after WWII, those German olds, women and children.
I read articles of BBC website, the westen media operated the reports, using the hatred and disgusting of CCP govt., to replace human beings' sympathise.

In wikipedia of "Expulsion of Germans after World War II", one sentience impressed very much: "Before World War II, Eastern and East-Central Europe generally lacked clearly shaped ethnic settlement areas. "

The westen (not include Germany at that time) used millions Germans bloods and tears, to create a clear ethnic line.

Now it's time for China. This is the same situation in Xingjiang and Tibet, the westens are trying to create a clear ethnic line, in the price of endless death and blooding, to hit China's CCP govt.

That's why even most Chinese considering CCP govt. a bad apple, majority Chinese with rational mind hate the westens and their medias so much.

[hulaku]

[QUOTE=liyi5598
That's why even most Chinese considering CCP govt. a bad apple, majority Chinese with rational mind hate the westens and their medias so much.[/QUOTE]

:)

[BloodyTalon]

snip
Compelling story; an ethnic minority is unfairly punished by the ethnic majority due to the actions of a handful of said minority. That's sound oddly familiar to something going on today, don't you think? Or are you one of those "you guys did it once, so that gives us the right to do it!" types?

[d'artagnan]

I have to say, there won't be much sympathy towards Uighurs by other most nationalities in china when the populations of uighurs in coastal cities are like less than 1% when the percentage of criminals of uighur background in coastal cities is like 10%. And could carry a knife on the street as if it's ok, if they claim it's because of their cultural background of being turkic, then ... how primitive.

Again, Xinjiang is China's lifeline to get oil and other resources from central asia and middle east, any disruption of our LIVES won't be tolerated. So if they claim uighurs don't get jobs because of discrimination, then ... tell your ppl stop being shoplifters and change your image. Muslim Hui and Manchus, despite its small population, has a much large present in china's elites circle in terms of percentage comparing with han chinese. While Dai, and Zhuang, despite their cultural differences, I have never had even slightest thing against them, they are all equal as a chinese citizen.

For me, someone having minority background, I really don't see why Uighurs should behave the way they do things. If those exile uighurs address their crime rates thing first, then i might consider to listen to them sometimes.

And some chinese blogger wrote before the reason china stayed silent in the war in gaza because first, we don't care; second, should some ppl like uighurs ever use massive violence in china to revolt, china will retaliate in the same scale (not necessary the same method of course). I'll see if it's true... ie the number being executed this time.

[liyi5598]

Compelling story; an ethnic minority is unfairly punished by the ethnic majority due to the actions of a handful of said minority. That's sound oddly familiar to something going on today, don't you think? Or are you one of those "you guys did it once, so that gives us the right to do it!" types?

You keep misleading my point.

Westens elites with their medias lable some govt. evil and then legally deprives the "evil side' citizens' human rights. As they did it again and again in the past.

[Ordie]

You keep misleading my point.

Westens elites with their medias lable some govt. evil and then legally deprives the "evil side' citizens' human rights. As they did it again and again in the past.

Like Rupert Murdoch?

He lost a ton of money in China.

....but gained a Chinese wife.

[acosta]

Originally Posted by Steak-Sauce
I bet your state media tells you something different. And that is the problem. Some Chinese (there are quite a few on this board) strongly believe in their media and give a **** about the rest of the world's media, saying everything else isn't true, and anti-Chinese. We, on the other hand, know exactly that your government-controlled media just tell the news, which put China into the good and shiny light.

My 15 €uro cents.

what makes you so sure these chinese posters believe "their media", instead they are telling the truth through their friend in Xinjiang?

please respect the truth, not any media whatsoever. just because you don't trust chinese media doesn't mean you should take the opposite as a truth. you even cannot doubt their content totally just because you think they are biasd. BBC and CNN website are open to a billion chinese everyday. by the way, do you learn argument and logicness in school? i find many poster her don't have the sense.

I thought you are a serious and logical-minded german, and reply your post early in respect. you didn't respond my post yet. But it's fine now, please disregard my reply and it lost any meaning.

still thank you for your lengthy answer.

[toki]

I bet none of them will be Han chinese.
BTW
Turks in Germany would not qualify as a minority as of now at least. They are guest-workers.
Maybe in a few generation time this will happen tho.


Ahm that's not true. They are in no way guest workers anymore. That was a program 40 years ago. Most Turks are born here in third generation. Of course they are a minority.

[Steak-Sauce]

acosta, read my post again please. I didn't name specific members. However, if you have a look around the board, especially in threads about political issues regarding the People's Republic, there's always a high chance that someone from the PRC is trolling.

Our discussion was quite interesting until user liyi5598 accused me and other "westeners" of, I quote him:


The westen societies are as evil as they were 70 years ago, when Jews' success brought the fate of massacre. The westens views our Chinese the same they viewed Jews 70 years ago. No any progress.
and the worst:

The westens neither like Muslin, nor Turkish, but they like Chinese being killed by Muslin and Turkish.

If you regard me as "serious and logical-minded" (Thanks), what is liyi5598 then?

I bet no one on this board hates Chinese people, but I think many users regard the PRC's government as crap.

Furthermore, I didn't say that I believe in my media, oh no sir. Everyone knows that not everything reported is 100% true. The media tends to exaggerate, that's their job, otherwise they will lose viewers and money on this market of information. What I did say was that Chinese media is government controlled, yes.

Concerning CS1.6, I hope your family, friends and neighbours are alive and unhurt for that matter!

If you can't give me a number or a reliable source for Urghurs trained in Afghanistan and simply write "ask your American ally", I regard your statement as ridiculous.


and you dont give a sh!t about how many innocent Han Chinese were slaughtered
Sir, I give a sh!t about people who get slaughtered, and moreover, I make no difference whether they are Han Chinese or Urghurs. Be careful with such statements!

Let me answer your two questions:
1. If a group of people goes rampaging through a German city and tries to kill another group of people, the German police would react as fast as possible to protect the innocent and detain those who are responsible.
2. I hope I will never be in such a situation.


if you refuse to belive these numbers then i am not surprised at all,
Why should I refuse to believe these numbers.. ?

To liyi5598:

First, thanks for the links, but what has the expulsion of Germans after World War II to do with this thread? Afaik we're talking about the Urghur unrest in China's Xinjang province and the diffculties of today's media coverage on this matter, or?
It's nice that you wanted to educate me about


This example is only used to make your shallow Germany brain to understand the situation, the westen's hypocritic rule that enemy's citizen has no human rights.
Anyway, thanks for the compliment. Do you want to be taken serious? Than get rid of these "compliments".


I can understand you, and most westens' feeling to the murdered Han Chinese in Urumuqi. You may think, those evil communist's supporters by default, they were served of that.
Interesting, you state the quoted above, but CS1.6 strongly believes that I don't give a sh!t about the dead. Well.. where did I say every single Han Chinese is an "evil communist supporter"?

Can you give me a proper answer how you are supposed to know my and "most westens' feeling" (sic!) to the murdered people?


Now it's time for China. This is the same situation in Xingjiang and Tibet, the westens are trying to create a clear ethnic line, in the price of endless death and blooding, to hit China's CCP govt.
Come on, it's already tin foil hat time? I strongly hope this is only your opinion alone.

[liyi5598]

To liyi5598:
First, thanks for the links, but what has the expulsion of Germans after World War II to do with this thread? Afaik we're talking about the Urghur unrest in China's Xinjang province and the diffculties of today's media coverage on this matter, or?

Thank you for your replying.

1. For how other things link with Urghur issue

I know it might cause problems by using examples of expulsion of Germans. Let's return Kosovo example.

You said you regard the PRC's government as crap.
If I say most westens think CCP govt. a threaten of world peace, a potential "enemy" to the westen, I think I am not exaggerating the situation.

Military is one way to destroy enemys, but it costs too much and difficult to get success.

Stirring ethnic or religious conflict by using your free medias is more effective.

So lets back to Kosovo example, Yugoslavia, the last communist country in Europe, was destroyed in this way.

I think you never noticed that the statistics of ethnic or religious conflicts are extraordinary higher in "enemy" countries.
Kosovo of Yugoslavia, Chechnya in Russia, Uyghur and Tibet in China, Iran, and many color revolutions in east Europe or central Asia.

I know there are cheap answers, the "enemy" countries oppress/crackdown, corruption, election fraud, bala bala bala....

But for me, as sometimes listen BBC reports, I realized that westen medias are sysmaticlly in operate ethnic or religious hatred to Stir things out of countrol.

The BBC, CNN, VOA have some reputations among some people, and they were using their reputation to make rumors spread wide and sounds really.

I am hesitating to write some thing about it, but it needs to refer a lot of references and I am worrying about the time and energy it might cost.

When the westen medias and their elites are cheerful for their success to attack the evil enemies, the ethnic or religious harmony is teared off to pieces. And people suffering these ethnic or religious hatred, their human rights are totally ignored in this crusade crazy feelings.

the westen's hypocritic rule that enemy's citizen has no human rights or can be ignored, as 156 victims, they didn't get much sympathese in westen, at lease in westen medias (In English report.) . I feel furious many westen medias keep liaring or misleading the public even using victims pictures.

As a Chinese under the westen media dictionship, liars not being punished and innocents being tarnished again and again, you can image how notorious westen medias are among Chinese now.

Sorry for only answering one of all you questions. I don't know if you can understand it, or if I am just wasting time again.

[BloodyTalon]

You keep misleading my point.

Westens elites with their medias lable some govt. evil and then legally deprives the "evil side' citizens' human rights. As they did it again and again in the past.
You pretty much made it clear that you're a hypocrite and a prima-donna in just two posts.

You're technically right that much of the hatred against the Jews in Nazi Germany was fanned by "elites with their medias". However, you forget the most important part of that fact; the media in Germany wasn't privately owned by the time the Nazis took power, it was state-owned. Because the Nazis banned other news sources except for their own, the German people did not have any large, alternative source to counter the Nazis' nationalist and antisemitic propaganda, which made it much easier for the German government to demonize other ethnic groups, organizations, subcultures, etc. and cover up their purging.

As for the forced expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe, that was not fanned by even the state controlled media of the Soviet Union. To put it bluntly, by the end of the war and the multiple blitzkriegs and atrocities committed by the Nazis, the Soviets didn't need to convince their people to hate the Germans.

So, by trying to compare your ordeal (i.e. Western posters on MP.Net don't like the Chinese government) with the ordeal of the Jews during the Holocaust or even the Germans in postwar Eastern Europe doesn't help your cause at all; it make you look like a melodramatic hypocrite, especially in a thread where you are supporting the crackdown and oppression of an ethnic minority in your country on the basis of what your government and the state media tells you. Also, insulting other user's nationalities and ethnicities while complaining about bias and discrimination really doesn't help your cause either.

[Steak-Sauce]

I just wanted to answer in detail, but..


I don't know if you can understand it, or if I am just wasting time again.

It's your decession, you're free to stop posting and no one will ever stop you doing exactly that. Bye!

[jokuhuna]

Lets get some facts first.

1. Hypocrites and nationalists every country has them.
2. No one with any understanding of history, regardless of what corner of the world he is from, does not respect the Chinese culture.
3. Press is not free to operate in china, compared to many many other countries. This has direct consequences on the information any one, Chinese or European or whoever, can get about any situation.
4. Many countries have difficulties with minorities and or separatists.
5. There is a global radicalisation of Muslim fundamentalists.
6. Human Rights is a western invention, that might not be compatible with other cultures.
7. Everyone shares the same world so some things happening in china or America effect everybody for good or worse. For example pollution.


The short moral is that would the Chinese allow a free press we could all discuss the truth and not some random pieces of video. Someone who is hiding stuff, probably has a reason for that. Or why would he hide it? Or what is the reason?
As long as no outside sources can get a good picture of what is going on, it is your own fault that things might not be seen as they are realy like.

A Chinese camera crew could come to germany and film any public space they want to for how long they want. Why is the opposite not true?
Do you Chinese want to be free? What are the downsides of freedom?
You seem to embrace the capitalism, why not embrace the personal freedom aswell?

[CS1.6]

Lets get some facts first.



1. Hypocrites and nationalists every country has them.
2. No one with any understanding of history, regardless of what corner of the world he is from, does not respect the Chinese culture.
3. Press is not free to operate in china, compared to many many other countries. This has direct consequences on the information any one, Chinese or European or whoever, can get about any situation.
4. Many countries have difficulties with minorities and or separatists.
5. There is a global radicalisation of Muslim fundamentalists.
6. Human Rights is a western invention, that might not be compatible with other cultures.
7. Everyone shares the same world so some things happening in china or America effect everybody for good or worse. For example pollution.



The short moral is that would the Chinese allow a free press we could all discuss the truth and not some random pieces of video. Someone who is hiding stuff, probably has a reason for that. Or why would he hide it? Or what is the reason?
As long as no outside sources can get a good picture of what is going on, it is your own fault that things might not be seen as they are realy like.


A Chinese camera crew could come to germany and film any public space they want to for how long they want. Why is the opposite not true?
Do you Chinese want to be free? What are the downsides of freedom?
You seem to embrace the capitalism, why not embrace the personal freedom aswell?


i respect the facts you listed and i wish most of the western posters here would be as rational as you; sadly, they are not.

it's true that the Chinese media is national owned and run, so the western society dont believe the news from China media source, and i can totally understand it;

but this time i think they've done a good job, they (the CCP official) let the western journalists come to Urumqi to cover the riot event very quickly. they learned their lesson from last year Lasa's similar riot event.

every ordinary in every country would like to have freedom, but being in a socialism country does not mean you dont have freedom, China now is much much open than ever before and we Chinese have much much more freedom more than ever before in our history; yet we are still lack of quiet some freedom than other people in western countries, like freedom of speech, freedom of acadamic, freedom of forming a new party, freedom of parade..........

but i dont think a violent revolution could help, we can just expect the evolvement/improvement of the CCP and the whole society, for example, the boom of the internet in China has helped to solve the situation of the freedom of speech, people could say whatever they like on the bbs, and they post the evidence of some official's scandal, and guess what? most of those unlucky official would be finished of their "political life". the CCP has to respect the public opinion of the internet and their official operations has been more and more transparent, though they still got a long way to go to give their people more freedom.

[derkrieger]

Ahm that's not true. They are in no way guest workers anymore. That was a program 40 years ago. Most Turks are born here in third generation. Of course they are a minority.
You are cluless.
This is the official german position.
according to a German reservation to a EU Treaty on minorities, only the traditional minorities do count, like the danes and the roma.
Non-traditional groups dont belong to it.
Go read some books next time.

[hsh2]

This is the official german position.
according to a German reservation to a EU Treaty on minorities, only the traditional minorities do count, like the danes and the roma.
Non-traditional groups dont belong to it.


Pretty sure that's correct. Toki you're apparently mistaking the mainstream term "Minderheit(en)" which is in frequent use by the Medias, with the status of a recognized minority.

I never understood why Frisians are considered a minority. Absolutely ridiculous.

[derkrieger]

Pretty sure that's correct. Toki you're apparently mistaking the mainstream term "Minderheit(en)" which is in frequent use by the Medias, with the status of a recognized minority.

I never understood why Frisians are considered a minority. Absolutely ridiculous.
thanks
he and some of his "Mitlaeufer" always believe that I have anti-German feelings, hence his jumping on the gun.
If Frisians are minority so should the Bavarians as well. (derkrieger runs for his life !!!)

[TheMiddlePath]

dear liyi1234,

Thx for tellin us that Europe is all, but one entity. Also to let us know that the West is also one as it should be.

You got decent training, that's nice, but pls do not waste yo time here. Just study these Tienanmen '89 footage and accuse us only after.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRhd6p4JY0I


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQTnWbrczIk

Brain washed by your Western media. Here are the FACTS behind TAM.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3964473&postcount=44

[toki]

You are cluless.
This is the official german position.
according to a German reservation to a EU Treaty on minorities, only the traditional minorities do count, like the danes and the roma.
Non-traditional groups dont belong to it.
Go read some books next time.


Pretty sure that's correct. Toki you're apparently mistaking the mainstream term "Minderheit(en)" which is in frequent use by the Medias, with the status of a recognized minority.

I never understood why Frisians are considered a minority. Absolutely ridiculous.


thanks
he and some of his "Mitlaeufer" always believe that I have anti-German feelings, hence his jumping on the gun.
If Frisians are minority so should the Bavarians as well. (derkrieger runs for his life !!!)

I don't know what you're talking about. The term "Guestworker" is ridiculous and naive. The so called guest workers all brought their families sooner or later and are now part of the society in third generation. Anyone who still talks about guest workers in clueless. "Guest worker" = biggest German political failure. The structure in society we have now is based on this naivety. Proper immigration and integration procedures in the 60's and 70's would have avoided many of todays problems.

And i don't even care if i confused "minderheiten" with "acknowledged minority".



Go read some books next time.
Go use your brain next time and think for yourself.
And show me an official source that still speaks of "Gastarbeiter".

[hsh2]

thanks
he and some of his "Mitlaeufer" always believe that I have anti-German feelings, hence his jumping on the gun.
If Frisians are minority so should the Bavarians as well. (derkrieger runs for his life !!!)

HAHA! In fact Bavarians would have about 10x as many solid reasons for that as the Frisians.

Take a look at this; what arrogance!

frisians.de
Title:Die Friesen eine nationale Minderheit in Deutschland.
Die Friesen besitzen eine eigene Identität, Kultur und Sprache.

Oh ok so you speak a dialect, have different borderings and loops on your Trachten, have different regional dishes, have a different architecture which gives you a different "identity" and that qualifies you as a minority. As if Hessians, Swabians, Franconians, Holsteiners etc were all the same. Besides Frisians themselves say that they are a Germanic people...just not German (or Dutch)rofl:bash:.

If I were a German I'd be offended by that kind of "extrawurst" (like I am offended by the minority in the Jura and Ticino saying they don't want to be Swiss etc. Fvckheads.)



And i don't even care if i confused "minderheiten" with "acknowledged minority".


It's an important distinction I'm afraid. One is a "given", policymaker: "die sind nunmal hier"; the other is an official part of the country which , as such, has priviledges, special rights etc.

2 completely different things despite their homonymity.

[TheMiddlePath]

None of us "westeners" like Chinese being killed. No matter if they are Han, Urghur, whatever. I hope you do understand this.

And to say that we view Chinese the same way some Nazi scumbags viewed the Jews 70 years ago is just ridiculous!:cantbeli:


Well don't blame the Chinese for thinking that.

When Chinese handicap athlete Jin Jing was westled to the ground in her wheelchair by a Tibetan thug in a EUROPEAN country, not one European country condemmed the Tibetan thug. The thug was allowed to leave and to further participate in other acts of violence in other places. Until today no European politician has call for his arrest.

http://i27.tinypic.com/dphkyh.jpg

[toki]

It's an important distinction I'm afraid. One is a "given", policymaker: "die sind nunmal hier"; the other is an official part of the country which , as such, has priviledges, special rights etc.

2 completely different things despite their homonymity.

If you read my original post the term i discredited was "guest worker". Still using it is nonsense. But Der Krieger was to full of himself and tried to school me with a definition of minority. While he was posting nonsense in the first place.

[BorisA]

Proper immigration and integration procedures in the 60's and 70's would have avoided many of todays problems.

And i don't even care if i confused "minderheiten" with "acknowledged minority".


...And show me an official source that still speaks of "Gastarbeiter".
Amen to the first sentence. But sadly we weren't witness to such a policy...instead we heard till the 90's that Germany is not a (traditional) immigration country. Even though that my be true in comparision to the USA, Canada etc. it is nevertheless wrong in general since immigration is an everlasting, "shape"-changing process. Or how would you call a country where 19% of the people have a migration background?

To comment why in Germany such a policy was not pursued in the 50/60/70's is the in this times prevalent thinking of foreigners merely as a production factor which remained from the Nazi-period. Guestworker as a new term for forced labourer. A person you can use, shift, change, move as you want. Of course the treatment was not (!), the same like in the third Reich, but nevertheless infected by that way of thought.
The reason why this mentality remained is the continuity in the ranks of the economic/political/administration elites.
Well...what did Adenauer say? If you don't have clean water you won't pour the dirty away.


Ps no german-bashing is intented with this post...

[Schmeiser]

This wake up my memories from Kosovo 99,this is verry sad,i hope peace will come soon.......:-(

[hsh2]

If you read my original post the term i discredited was "guest worker". Still using it is nonsense. But Der Krieger was to full of himself and tried to school me with a definition of minority. While he was posting nonsense in the first place.

Original post:


Ahm that's not true. They are in no way guest workers anymore. That was a program 40 years ago. Most Turks are born here in third generation. Of course they are a minority.

Buddy wether you regard them as guest workers or not is completely irrelevant to the status they enjoy. To the state they are "Ausländer" with a work permit and a "Aufenthaltsbewilligung" which is pretty much the textbook definition of a guestworker.
Medias call them "Minderheit" or "mit Migrationshintergrund" because it's the politically correct thing to do and sounds much better than "Gastarbeiter". Arbeit=Slave.

I do not think that the number of children they have or wether their children have children making them grandparent is of relevance either.

They came on a work contract, had kids, their kids had kids and meanwhile 40yrs have gone by. It was pretty much "vorgesehen" that they would go back to Turkey sooner or later, which they didnt in the end, and they are now here.

They are not in anyway a recognzied minority. To your personal "empfinden" ; but not to the state and its machinery. However, that may be the case in 200yrs or so especially if they change their culture ie become culturally slightly different from regular Turks. An example would be Döner invented in Kreuzberg. That would add validity to their claim. Why do you think Sorbs are a minority and are even recognized as a separate ethnicity? It's because their different from Czechs and Poles (their ancestral homelands and kinsmen) in combination with a certain timeframe.

Besides many of the really young ones (teenagers basically) are German citizens so anyway...

[toki]

Original post:



Buddy wether you regard them as guest workers or not is completely irrelevant to the status they enjoy. To the state they are "Ausländer" with a work permit and a "Aufenthaltsbewilligung" which is pretty much the textbook definition of a guestworker.
Medias call them "Minderheit" or "mit Migrationshintergrund" because it's the politically correct thing to do and sounds much better than "Gastarbeiter". Arbeit=Slave.

I do not think that the number of children they have or wether their children have children making them grandparent is of relevance either.

They came on a work contract, had kids, their kids had kids and meanwhile 40yrs have gone by. It was pretty much "vorgesehen" that they would go back to Turkey sooner or later, which they didnt in the end, and they are now here.

They are not in anyway a recognzied minority. To your personal "empfinden" ; but not to the state and its machinery. However, that may be the case in 200yrs or so especially if they change their culture ie become culturally slightly different from regular Turks. An example would be Döner invented in Kreuzberg. That would add validity to their claim. Why do you think Sorbs are a minority and are even recognized as a separate ethnicity? It's because their different from Czechs and Poles (their ancestral homelands and kinsmen) in combination with a certain timeframe.

Besides many of the really young ones (teenagers basically) are German citizens so anyway...

I have no time anymore to answer properly. But i think completely misunderstand each other. But there is no official status guest worker anymore. And you say it's political incorrect but true that they are still guest workers. But that's wrong: Anybody who is not expected to return is not a guest worker. Especially since many have German citizenship. (Textbook minority) And the fact that the first guest workers seddled down and brought their families makes them immigrants. It's not my fault that Germany is fiddling around with different definitions. Though they're beginning to accept them as immigrants. The policy change should have come earlier though, Integration was a word unknown 20 years ago.

btw they are already culturally different from other Turks. I know it from a turk who just moved here two years ago in a totally different setting. Even their language evolved. He regards them as satelite Turks, evolving different than mainland Turks. Very different. Partly coming from their isolation, partly from their anatolian background. German Turks arer mainly from a certain region in Turkey, regarded as a peasant area by other Turks.

http://www.bpb.de/themen/6XDUPY,0,0,Von_der_GastarbeiterAnwerbung_zum_Zuwanderungsgesetz.html


Seit dem 1. Januar 2000 in Deutschland geborene Kinder ausländischer Eltern erhalten die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit, wenn ein Elternteil seit mindestens acht Jahren dauerhaft in Deutschland lebt.

Read the whole link. Pretty much every Turk lives here longer than 8 years and their children are all entitled for German citizenship. If they want it is another question. The times of guestworkers are gone, and you can turn it however you want. That doesn't mean though that integration really happened. But that was never my point.

[Dexx]

Why do you rant about Germany in a thread called " What Europe should understand about the violence in Urumqi"?

[derkrieger]

so Dexx
it all started with a Chinese fella saying like "you Germans have Turks, so we have our own Turks to screw etc.."
I reminded him that the Turks of Germany would not qualify as a minority, which is BTW German official position on this issue.
Then Toki jumped in and blablabla.
You know the rest.
and you are right
we are derailing the topic.

@ hueresiech: great posts, danke danke !!!

[toki]

I reminded him that the Turks of Germany would qualify as Gastarbeiter, which is BTW German official position on this issue.
*fixed*
That's what you wrote, which is factually wrong. Simple as that.

You were right about them not being an official/national minority, but you discredited your smartarserie with that one.

And ok. We're stopping here.