12GA From Hell, 8Ga FH, 4GA FH, 700HE, 585HE, years of fun work--

[hubel458]

New visitor here, and you folks have a nice site. Others and myself
over on the AR forums and around the net have worked on a
concept of hopping up big bores, one of which is the 12GA From Hell
as we call it. Idea was Rob's and the first picture is of his Borchardt
fallong block,the first gun chambered in the 12GA FH.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/2430DSC00694.JPG

Second picture is one of the cases next to a regular 12ga plastic case,
Cases are 3.85" long and we made them by putting rims on BMG brass.
And the shorter brass or plastic cases still fire in our chambers fine,
so it is still a 12ga, just with a long case, and isn't a DD.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/1212.jpg

Next picture is the second gun to have that case, my Savage 210 with a
heavy barrel replacing light factory barrel, now with thumb hole stock.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sav12th.jpg

Next is the third gun to have that case, my NEF Ultra Slug Gun,
and the barrel was heavy enough, so we only had to deepen the
chamber. We also added to the barrel to make 36" rifled barrel.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/neflb.jpg

Next is a couple of another AR poster RIP's Nefs, redone in long chamber
with brakes on them.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1870.jpg

Next is the 8GA FH gun I setup by boring out a heavy barrel
10ga NEF. We use the super strong plastic 8 ga kiln gun cases.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8nef

I also have some of my own wildcat cases the 585HE, and 700HE,
and they are listed in the new Blue Book Ammo Encyclopedia, In this
picture shows a MRC PH action, the first one out of their shop, I setup
with my 700HE 3.25" case. I tested it with a 825 gr bullet at 2900 fps.
Hunting loads are 25-2600 fps.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph700gun.jpg


Next picture is the inexpensive 4ga/bore falling block we are working
on, getting big falling block actions cost an arm and a leg.
Maybe done in a few weeks to fire.I make cases from 20mm brass
in last picture with a 30-06 for comparison.We have 5 years work
and hundreds of pictures with this great experiment.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbbl.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/naval.jpg

[gregb]

Insane stuff - Do you have any vids of them being fired - if so please post i'd love to see the recoil .

[Skutatos]

Insane stuff - Do you have any vids of them being fired - if so please post i'd love to see the recoil .

X2...the recoil must be insane.

[hubel458]

I have a 2 videos on You Tube of 12ga FH from the Savage
with 600gr Dixie slug at about 3000 fps, atomizing a 6 gallon
heavy walled pail full of water. As for recoil we have the guns
weighted, with brakes or ported, double thickness pads, so recoil is
no more than a magnum 12ga in a 7lb gun. Or a 458 Lott in
8lb gun.And thumbhole stocks I use take up a quarter of thr recoil.
My Savage is 21 lbs, my Nef 8 & 12ga are 16 lbs, the PH is 21 lbs, the
4bore is 27lbs. My long(3.87") belted case 700HE in a Vulcan action is 27 lbs.
It gets a 1000 gr bullet to 3200.It is pictured 1st below.It is the
top dog in the arsenal until I get 4bore done.

All 5 of my 585HEs are about 15 lbs each.2nd picture is a 585HE belted
3.25" case in a Nef that I monoblocked a 585 barrel into.I now have a
thumbhole stock on it like on the 8ga pictured above, and hollow stock
is full of weight.In the NEF 585 i can shoot 650 gr bullets at 2400
and take out fired cases with my fingers, no extractor needed.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700helr.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef585.jpg

[Wahnsinn]

Any chance of posting a link to the Youtube video?

[Blutarsky]

Nice Kahles scope on first pic.woot

[hubel458]

Blutarsky- Yes that is a real nice gun Rob set up, and doing most
of his own work he has a 20 grand gun for a 1/4 as much.

Wahnsinn- Here are the two links-Ed

www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM)

Here is a photo of the water pail atomising.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Shot%203.jpg

[59Diesel]

I see you have tooken care of that. I was going to post the videos of it into the Shotgun thread.

Hubel here is a great person. Want a Shotgun with some real hunting Knockdown power shoot him a PM.

He could help you get setup on everything you need.

Soon to be on of my HR Parnders for him to massage over.

[hubel458]

Well the great guys are the ones like 59 diesel who help out and
encourage us. Experimenting with big bores involves so much work,
time, supplies and parts and everyone helping out makes it work.
I just kinda put everyones ideas and inputs together,
and try to tell everyone about the whole process.
Closeup picture, a double 12GA FH Rob is doing by mono-blocking
in heavy rifled barrels on a heavy Spanish Zabala 10ga frame.
He made the big game gun style quarter rib for it also.
Beautiful job, and a lot of time. Plans on Africa with it in
the future. Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0362.JPG

[goat89]

Are these known as Elephant guns? :D

[hubel458]

Oh yes, as they are just hopped up, longer case versions of
the 12GA Paradox guns used for elephant, in the late 1800s,
and early 1900s. Only with modern stronger actions and barrels,
for more power and at the same time safer.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is the front end of the 4bore, showing the 1" diameter
slug in end of barrel, simulating stop frame photo work.
Of course no one would put camera in front this close if
it was firing. Barrel is 32" long, 1 7/8" breech diameter and
a smoothbore. I will shoot hollowbase slugs that work best in
smoothbores. About 1600gr slugs at 20-2200 fps regular loads,
and up to 2700 for bragging rights.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbul.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are couple more pictures of the double 12GA FH
Rob is building. The is a 4 year running thread on these guns,
and experimenting on AR forums(accuratereloading.com), in
the big bore section. Third picture is my 700H 3.25" I built on
a Savage 210 action, left and an Enfield action, right.
My 700H is a belted case I made from BMG brass. These along
with the one above in the PH action and one in a NEF makes
4 different guns in that chambering.Fourth picture is NEF. Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0286.JPG


http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0285.JPG


http://www.gunownerstv.com/700es.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef700h.jpg

[Crazed Aussie]

just curious about the range of some of these beastly firearms ?

[hubel458]

They are mainly designed as stoppers. but with the
speed they can get, with full bore spire pointed bullets like
Rob made showing in the 1st post above they would
have range like a BMG 50 cal. Also shooting 50cal pointed bullets
in 12ga sabot, like second in picture would go long range.
Or the streamlined bullet in the last picture.
The 12ga FH in Robs gun gets a 1000gr over 3000 fps.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sab.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sp.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are pictures of other guns we have setup.
First a Mossberg 695 I rebarreled and made into a
28GA From Hell, with a long brass 28ga case.
Have a heavy 12ga barrel for it also.
Second pic is 28ga FH cases.Regular 28ga works also.
3rd is a Mauser GEHA I set up with a rifled modern
12ga barrel from a Sav 210. I test up to 3" cases in it.
It is originally a 12ga converted from 98 Mausers years
ago..It used the rear bolt lug for bolt locking,
but I added a second rear lug to the bolt.Works great.
4th is a NEF in my 499HE case. This is where you take
reamer and lengthen chamber on the NEF 500 S&Ws.
With this you can use all of the variety of 500 S&W
slugs which are in much better supply than
the 50 cal .510" bullets at my gun shops.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss28d.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/28fhb.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mauserd.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/499nef.jpg

[Desert_Donkey]

I am struck dumb with awe.

What would one hunt with such monster firearms? Elephants? Tanks? Small planets?

Seriously, I am envious as hell! Nice work, and keep the pics coming as you develop these things to perfection!

[Jii]

That's gonna leave a mark.


Nice guns, great job.

[hubel458]

Most of the worEk about 20 of us are doing-- nothing super special--
that any of you folks can do also.. A start is to get a NEF 12ga Ultra
slug gun with the bull barrel and reload some of our hairy loads
for 3" plastic cases. Then ream it to 3.5" chamber and step up
a ways with 3.5" plastic cases, and then get 3.5" brass cases
for more power.Add weight to the gun and thicker or double pad
and you going. Those that have pump guns can go to heavier slug
barrels, and get good power.Rossi makes a rifled heavy barrel
slug gun, in first picture. Ithaca makes one in 2nd picture.
TC makes the Encore 12ga rifled slug gun in foreground in
3rd pic with NEF behind, both with 3.5" brass cases showing.
These and other 12ga guns with a little work, weighting,and
reloading our beefed up loads give the
equivalent of a 600NE.Ed

http://www.rossiusa.com/imagesMain/H_S121230S.jpg



http://www.ithacagun.com/images/deerslayer3feature.jpg



http://www.gunownerstv.com/nefen.jpg

[hubel458]

And once you are setup with heavy barreled
12ga guns you can load your own sabots, saving
bucks compared to store prices.Here is a picture
of sabots you can load own with from BPI.
In picture is 420gr lead slug in the left two and
a 385gr lead in right. You do up to 500gr in these.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpi.jpg




Once you have a gun with 3.5" chamber you can use
both 3.5" plastic and brass cases.same for 3"
Comparing brass cases.I tell everybody who are stepping
up in power from 3.5 plastic, you can get 3.5" brass cases
from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy
and nice they are compared to regular brass cases.
They also make shorter 3" brass cases also.
They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to
get some serious thumping power.And they have a
super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head
like regular ones on the left in pic.Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_2093.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_2090.jpg

[hubel458]

Tested my 499HE in a NEF.Sometimes you develop a
cartridge just for a certain bunch of guns, those
being all the underwhelming 500 S&W out there in
NEFs. As well as shops always have these bullets
in supply, much more than other big bore bullets.
So I had a long case here that I made years ago
as a long .510" cal, and I change the shape a little
to fit all of the .500" cal bullets out there.
Following loads easy on brass, I didn't have to
full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case that
expanded a little. 325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150.
In my NEF I can get both weight bullets 300 fps faster,
still extract very easy. With higher velocities they
resize easy, And this case gets these great velocities
at 50-60% of the pressure as the original case in NEF.

I got finish 499HE reamer made by Manson.. Just run it
in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add
a little weight and thick pad to the gun. I have
a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original
bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.

Second picture a Mossberg 835 set up with a heavy rifled slug
barrel, another gun that can handle heavy loads.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499nef.jpg


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1443.jpg

[hubel458]

When we try to make hairy slug loads and need longer,
heavy barrels to use the slower powders.......
It is great when a company does it close to right.
Some have heavy barrels but need to be longer.
Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle diameter barrel. Barrel
is heavier than most all add on pump gun rifled barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise ready to be crimped...Ed

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/870_super_slug_780.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/drill.jpg

[Hollis]

Very interesting stuff............. Now let me look at my shoot guns, I wonder?


BTW, thanks for the thread, really great info and ideas.

[hubel458]

Yes it really a great thrill to take big bores
on a shotgun caliber platform, and get power out them
that is like what dangerous game rifles deliver.
And the secret is slower powders in larger amounts,
in guns with heavy barrels, preferably longer barrels.
And weighting the guns with thick recoil pads,
completes the process for great shooting.
Reloading and wildcatting is tremendous vocation, and
doing the more powerful shotgun slug loads in plastic
and brass cases just adds to the fun.Ed

[hubel458]

Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle barrel. Barrel
is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise readt to be crimped...Ed

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/870_super_slug_780.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/drill.jpg

Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on
the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never
touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in
smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do
great also.Could be made heavier and different points.
If you could get plastic pieces you could cast your own
with grooves put on the plastic and save some bucks.
Flat point shown would do great damage to game.
On the net- ammunitiontogo.com
This one is about 500 gr.

Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W,
shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting
much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/images/Monolit%2032.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499he.jpg

[rhino]

that is some amaizing hobby you got

if the ice age and the mamoths return Ill be lining up for one of those babys:)

[hubel458]

Well we got grizzleys, and African buffalo which
can take a little extra to kill.

We've experimented a lot with slower than shotgun powders
and it really has worked out for great power increases.
Some more testing with RE17 powder. I've used it in 2.75",
3", 3.5" 12ga plastic, 3.5 and 3.85" brass. I like it the
best of all, as well as the real slow powders in our
long case with BMG primers that we started out with.
Following tested in Savage-max pressure 35k psi.
I took couple of our first made 3.85" long BMG based
long cases and bushed them back to use shotgun primers
to fire off the RE17. Works great, with 715gr jacketed slug
and 220 gr RE17 getting 2700 . With 420 gr slug in
BPI sabot with 250 gr RE17 getting 3200 plus.
Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads. So that solves a
problem-of regular guns having trouble firing BMG primers.
IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads it has worked out to.
I see now that Lightfield Co has the Commander 3.5" Plus
slug loads with 600gr at 1900, probably in a test barrel.
But that is great- nice, as it seems we're being copied!!!
WE had 600gr load in 3" plastic, that fast, 3 years ago with our
slow powder loads, that we had lab pressure test, and it came
in less than 15,000 psi.

Here is picture of the cases we make from BMG brass with
a bushings in for smaller primers. Left bmg primer, 2nd shotgun
primer in bushing,3rd a large rifle primer in bushing.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/209.jpg

[kamarian]

you evil, evil, evil men. As if small defenceless little furry animals don't have enough to put up with, you make these, shoulder fired planet killers!

Seriously, i wish these we legal in australia! i'd buy a few just for fun!!!!

Great work!

[hubel458]

Most are just shotguns that would be legal there, Like the REM above,
like NEF Ultra Ultra slug gun. Like other with heavy barrels, The you
reload hairy slug loads. You can probably use 12ga brass cases. I
heard that Bruce has 12ga brass cases or is going to do some.
And you can get different slugs like shown above and below.

So many guys want sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores here.
Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They are selling these for reloaders only.
It is called the US-S slug, and their site is
europeancartridgeunlimited.com ..Ed

http://www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com/images/P7190013_s.jpg

[hubel458]

The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds.
I had helped him test another slug a while back.
He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr.
I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887
smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at
1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS
seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal
is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing.
Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with
peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized
in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled.
My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle.
These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to
ask their dealers to work to import these for them
to have what seems a good slug to reload...

On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up
to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter
If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long
10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed

[fragmall]

Cool, nice work.

I wish I was still allowed to own my Rem. 870 Deer gun.

I was about to fit the 870 with a scope, I had the mounts already, when the Gun Buyback happened in '96.

[hubel458]

Can you get a heavy barreled 12ga NEF
Ultra Slug gun there?

Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup
with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was
kind enough to send me a few of each weight
to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right.
They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in
3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and
in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both.
With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug
is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My
smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle,
a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth
bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle,
and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot
kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a
heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle,
1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug
gun with slugs like these, and others like the
Brenekkes, I have spare one. The US-S slugs
are smoothbore accurate in my 87 like the
Brenekke KOs.In the picture the left two cases
are 3.5" Fiocchi with the Fiocchi magnum primers.
I compared that primer to the REM 209 primer and
it has about the same strength.Next two are FED 3.5".
then 2 12GA FH 3.85" cases, then 3.5" RMC brass, then
3" RMC brass, the 2 WIN 3.5", then 2 REM 3.5".ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslug.jpg

[hubel458]

I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set
up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with
feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I
had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer
than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding
long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The
700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture
case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under
extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is
the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed
for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together.
Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700phfeed.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700box.jpg

[hubel458]

The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000
in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group
at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with
for smoothbores.
Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled
barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long
brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting
on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype,
third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some,
as it is much easier way. First in picture is
16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long,
3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafh.jpg

[hubel458]

I made a belted 12ga cartridge from 55cal Boys case. They have a
belt and I reduce belt diameter to .825", leaving the base .800"
same as 12ga base.Straightened case sides to the .729"
12ga bore and redid chamber in Savage bolt 12ga to recieve
the belt.Case is 3.85" long, same capacity as out 12GA fH rimmed case.
I'll have picture in couple days.ED

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to
test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted
Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left
the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture
first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third
expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.
Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5"
plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber
with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12gabelt.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through
3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic
base and it went through straight without tumbling.
This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it
would be in flight, before hitting target.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usapart.jpg

[hubel458]

4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting
real small parts without CNC for bushed
firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes
time.

We will have swaged lead 4bore slugs
in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They
will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done,
a hundred of them at least.
Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore
cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison
Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4to2.jpg

[hubel458]

Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition
Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a
cartridge collector and gun nut friend.

I got a guy who now takes BMG cases and for a rim
puts on the high base cup from a plastic case. He turns
base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold
it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with
heat gun from plastic cases,

He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he
puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so
the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside
tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it
do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it
back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That
way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of
time not having to make rim pieces.

We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
use on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH,
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger, with barrel
figured in. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpifl.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is
of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb585.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb16.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb700.jpg

[Skutatos]

What manufacture is the falling block? Damn nice looking gun, even with the NEF stock.

[hubel458]

It is an FBW(Falling Block Works) Model L.
They have none now, but may do some
next year, if there is interest in them.

FBW email-- Lfix@torchlake.com

They also made smaller model S of which
I don't how many are around.ED

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by
epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass
case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base
with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb600.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12bases.jpg

[hubel458]

Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim. a little.
These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bret.jpg

[hubel458]

Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over
contact me... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8inef.jpg

[hubel458]

A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.....585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autol with long stroke I've reworked
the travel on and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585khan.jpg

[hubel458]

Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhb.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/zrevolver.bmp

[hubel458]

The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhbg.jpg

[hubel458]

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads
in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is
stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/maw1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/maw2.jpg

[hubel458]

The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed

http://www.hyattgunstore.com/images/P/main-1933.jpg

[hubel458]

I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings
hot rod sabot slugs at their out if business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard
to find and costly.. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb600.jpg

[hubel458]

I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ben1.jpg

[hubel458]

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10ga6.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.Makes a great 10ga FH.
And the case isn't weakened any, by the
process of putting on the rim.It will
stand any pressures any gun could...ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhbef.jpg

[hubel458]

We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt guns. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
I even have cast slugs for 700.
Cases are expensive, ones in picture are
20 bucks each...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/matt700.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mobelt.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585shbr.jpg

[hubel458]

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with a rod,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbbl.jpg

[hubel458]

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED

[hubel458]

Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and
one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk.
Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases
still didn't expand base. just size top..
Running about 23-25,000 psi.
The light ball load in above post
about 16,000 psi.. Ed

[hubel458]

Some interesting shooting with 4bore.

Double 760gr ball load of 1520 gr total, at 2300 fps.

A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each,
and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at 2300 fps.

Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the
turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil
manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't
a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud
like big bore rifles,and at least twice as as loud.Ed

[hubel458]

I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC.
The case capacity in water is 234 gr.
It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the
base of 490gr 20ga hard lead slugs I have.
These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and
I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs
and sabots I have are that size. These cases will
work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme
expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder
will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi,
6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to
put on the FBW Model L falling block.
! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings
SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pic of the RMC brass 20ga 3.5" with
Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads,
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case.

Second pic is the FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece
thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my
4bore falling block. Second Model L will be built same
in 3.5" 20ga. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20dies.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw1pc.jpg

[hubel458]

Transition, biggest to a smaller, in
putting falling block actions in one piece stocks.
First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge.
And it is pictured above with the cases.
I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.
And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel
we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigsm.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock,
compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock.
Both are chambered in my 585HE.
These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1
will easily handle my 585HE with proper
weight and thick pads. These guns have
rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and
out with least amount of metal removal from
the feed trough, with much more power.
The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga
barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and
Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also
I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw2pc.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. 4 rear bolt lugs.Singleshot.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt1.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt2.jpg

[hubel458]

Some have asked if the guy who made above
bolt action 8ga does them for others, no he only
did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer.

Here is picture of a cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot
a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with
our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok.
Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent
meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt
so it has good longer range capabilities when you
get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and
guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug
setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have
a new sabot this year..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpi504.jpg

[hubel458]

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is
one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case
and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/2inch12.jpg

[hubel458]

Have had a bunch of different guys shooting
the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads.
All say it is a tremendous thrill.
Simply the greatest shooting ever.

So many have opinions on what is a real big bore.
I think really big starts at .585........
So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel
Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked
cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys.
This is my only wildcat base case with a neck.
Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720".
and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of
14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot
in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield. Not for
mass production by me, cases too hard to make.
An experiment with necked cases.
Picture of the case later.Ed

[hubel458]

20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5" plastic cased Hastings 395 gr
locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and
got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't
expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to
peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with
both case types.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20dies.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more 20ga- 490gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2400+ fps. Cases very slight
base expansion. About .001" above base.
Load of 180gr RE17, shotgun primer.Ed

Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our
cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed

4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO
700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO
12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO
585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO
577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO
700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO

[hubel458]

20ga testing- 600gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, 2300 fps. Very slight
case expansion above base.
Another load type-12 number 1 buckshot,
about 510 gr worth, 2000. Glued a 20ga
card in the brass case over the shot. Ed

[hubel458]

There are fellas in who have and are planning on
doing hopped up loads and cases in the Greener GP,
Martini type action. Here is picture of one done couple
years ago by Aussie guy on NitroExpress forums. It has a rifled
Pacnor barrel and weighs about 9 lbs. In my measuring an
action here, they will feed a 3" brass case with a protruding
slug, like the cast Dixie or the Henson jkt slugs.
I like the looks of these old classic guns. And they are
strong enough with 3" RMC brass to get 730gr slug to
2000 fps...Ed

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/dcommens/IMGP0777.jpg

[hubel458]

A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.
The new blue BPI 12ga sabots are out now.
A lot of guys will loading sabots in plastic 12ga cases.
If cases get expanded at the base, the best remedy is
a MEC Super Sizer. Makes them like new.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8nef.jpg

[hubel458]

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug, with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy.

This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound......Ed

[hubel458]

About slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
RCBS has sizing dies. Loaded that length about the same power
as a 3.5" plastic case roll crimped on same slug, magnum load.
Don't leave air space in Magtech, but use wads and seals
like in plastic cases..Ed

[hubel458]

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones
and 3.3" 8ga.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pl4ga.jpg

[hubel458]

When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
we have 585 Hubel Super Magnum, HSM. This will be my only
bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 14,000 ft lbs.
Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
It'll work in FBW Model L..ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hsm.jpg

[hubel458]

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic... ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hsmcomp.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmen.jpg

[hubel458]

In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
showing how strong brass is.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/810cast.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmsect.jpg

[hubel458]

We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do
10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
It is hollowbased and 750gr.You can also cast .69-.70
lead slugs for wadcup use. Also use the same wadcup
for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
Another experimenter has got a bunch
of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
them about any time you want.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/585castbul.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/3520fbw.jpg

[hubel458]

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, has big breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed

[hubel458]

More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions. Nice
to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available
for decent price. One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga,
lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper
burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps
with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me.
Brass cases from RMC 7 bucks, decent price compared to
600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s along with
the bigger. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC
which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel.
Which is why I started research after getting a CBC,
as it is about perfect for the 20ga added heavy barrel.
Or in NEF, a little more. Or other singles, if heavy enough.
And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass
20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at
1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking
20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can
get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more.
Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the
pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one
experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED

[hubel458]

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each.
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/810cast.jpg

[hubel458]

I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier,
shown below. Well now BPI has something similar in
their new catalog. We have tested some and one
gets a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgal.jpg

[hubel458]

The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bbvar.jpg

[hubel458]

Some wonder if only trying for foster slug accuracy at 200 feet
or 60-70 yds wasn't the best goal in a smooth bore, But if you get it
at 20% of the cost you've made a big gain. And most deer here are
killed at 30 yards. And putting slugs inside of thickwall wadcups,
with corresponding nitro wads under slug to get slug to the front
of cup, slug glued in, makes them long and a little more accurate than
foster slugs. Reason is the forcing cone in smoothbores. With the
long nose, heavy combination of wadcup/slug, the back of the
wadcup is in case yet while the front gets into the bore, past the
forcing cone, for a straight start. Little better accuracy. Like the
accurate US-S smoothbore locked on base slug, that is long.
The longer the nose heavy slug/sabot combo is, the truer it flies.
And most of these combinations work in brass cases with
thick walls like RMC cases. They fit real tight for my cases. Ed

[hubel458]

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
I've also put plastic seal and fiber wad on 8ga slug.

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed

[hubel458]

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with the heavy slugs or
cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Got a big shop trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed

[hubel458]

I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and then see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED

[hubel458]

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder.. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases.

Second picture is PH action with port lengthened
for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second
change barrel for 700HE long case for this action.
Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE.
Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbc20.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbc.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phl585.jpg

[Beowulf]

some great stuff there. I'd be scared to tinker with firearms this much - be afraid to blow myself up.

[hubel458]

Here are some 20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gasab.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4done.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/zacslug.jpg

[hubel458]

I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
on a falling block will have the chamber long
so I can use both lengths of cases.
The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base
swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The
long brass has shotgun primers.
I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8losh.jpg

[hubel458]

The long brass 8ga cases have same thick
sides as plastic cases. And there are long
plastic/paper cases out there, but they
are scarce. Thick sides mean a good chamber
fit, so as to minimize case expansion and make sizing
easier. Here is picture 8ga and 10ga fullbore slugs with
locked on basewads that I setup. Wads held on by
screws and slugs hollowbase as well, so to work in
smooth barrels with some accuracy. 8ga is 1100gr.
10ga is 900 gr.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/810base.jpg

[hubel458]

New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
reciever built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out.

Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info
as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
Bob in OR for info.Ed
http://auction-e.com/image/19/982/0804.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
and 700HE long case.

A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs could
be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbco20.jpg

[hubel458]

Would have posted back quicker but computer
hookup down for afew days..
Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier doing in
an Enfield. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to
the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW
saboted with locked on base.

Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed
front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
in my 700H 3.25.
I got some of the work done on 8ga in my falling
block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier.
Will get pictures posted later..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/en16fh.jpg

[hubel458]

Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than
the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass
cases for where length is limited..

Using 770 gr saboted slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
Thes are long saboted slugs due being brass and locked on base.
Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17
and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot.

For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more
powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
speed like full bore slugs get.

These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with
65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick.
And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with
a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
built by others for sale. And that is absolute
sexiest bolt handle.
Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from
the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
supply places. ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/jaction.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/jbullet.jpg

[hubel458]

Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered
nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
malleable enough to shape into jackets,
without a 20 ton stamping press.

Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum..
The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
and ideas too...Ed

[hubel458]

You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great
craftsmanship.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/inchgun.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
in picture with lever open and breech down.
I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture.

Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
on the back of the breech block on an extension.
I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic.
It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
breech and action a little wider.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafb.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4trham.jpg

[hubel458]

Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use
same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.

This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafbb.jpg

[hubel458]

Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
from the top...2nd a side view of the breech
block with back extensions, with hammer and
trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
inside the two bottom extensions.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/emptyact.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/brchside.jpg

[hubel458]

A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some
of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge
is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one.
Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigbore.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
extensions are narrower than the top. These are
what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same
width for all action sizes.Just top different
for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
of 1500gr over 2600.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/brchfront.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/brchback.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup.
2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gawad.jpg
http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/elvas/US_S_Slug/p1010011dj.jpg

[hubel458]

That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.

Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/buljkt.jpg

[hubel458]

More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
the most accurate.

Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
guys want to get.....ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/horn.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgflat.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
are checking loads in, to see how much speed
can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
short full bore lead slug, compared to the
saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
slug load for more speed..

Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/big06.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/short730.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.

1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.

2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, and could be called 24ga FH.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/all585.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87rhm.jpg

[hubel458]

Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed

162691

[hubel458]

Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed

162692

[hubel458]

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and machine them.Ed.

162693

[hubel458]

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup,with cushion base, with
its own seal, that they use for the 3 oz lead kiln slug, which works
also for various other slugs and shot loads. Holds 9
000 buckshot and any slug of .795" diameter.
The companies loading 8ga for kiln work also make a
fullbore .835" zinc slug of 3 oz weight.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases- in wadcup-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup- 630 gr total-- 2600.
These loads are at the level where cases can be reused 4-5 times.Ed

[hubel458]

Remember Swift 12, from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed
http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/elvas/US_S_Slug/p1010011dj.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2481/p1010009zh.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3106/pa260004.jpg

[hubel458]

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1844.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1845.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1846.jpg

[hubel458]

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/lancaster/slug_bore_paradox_cartridges/1130013.jpg

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/lancaster/slug_bore_paradox_cartridges/1144115.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr4.jpg

[hubel458]

Folks can see various 8bore, 4bore, etc shooting videos
from around the world , on Youtube. many are the older
ones like in these pictures...Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.
And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.
I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.
Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr2.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/start2.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/620she.jpg

[hubel458]

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.
Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/explora.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr3.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/make4.jpg

[hubel458]

Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.
A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.
Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr1.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/parcases.jpg

[hubel458]

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.
In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.
Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.
And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic/seal on the back
and that it shoots like a Brenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gawad.jpg

[hubel458]

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/rucase.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/ruslug.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"
Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.
3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/rip4.jpg

Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/bodycrimp.jpg

Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.
In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as most full bore slugs from
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed

[hubel458]

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/pushin.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslongnose.jpg

[hubel458]

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.
And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
This shows the posibilities of smoothbores,
rather than not trying to perfect them.
3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/rcslug.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rctarget.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/frsabot.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.
First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/paraklese.jpg
Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/hexolit.jpg
Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/gualandi.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.
First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/alcan.jpg
Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.
Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls58.jpg
Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.
Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/55sabot.jpg

[Clear_blues]

Those expanding slugs look scary as all heck

[hubel458]

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.
First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/buckha20.jpg
Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.
And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.
Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/20sabsl.jpg
Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........
http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls50.jpg
Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12spws.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more slug setups and ideas.
First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/4uss.jpg

2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/eucart.jpg

3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/tung.jpg

4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/tungsab.jpg