Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS admitting his Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insuranc

[Jeremiah]

"SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS admitting his Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance
OBAMA AND THE DEMOCRATS HEATH CARE GOAL IS A PUBLIC OPTION THAT WILL ULTIMATELY ELIMINATE PRIVATE EMPLOYER PROVIDED INSURANCE
(Obama S.E.I.U. forum on health care 3/24/07, Barney Frank, Jan Schakowsky all admitting a public option will put the private insurance industry out of business) NAKED EMPEROR NEWS"



http://www.youtube.com/v/p-bY92mcOdk&eurl=

[Zeev]

Not bad, that will provide medical cares for all and especially the poorer citizens.

I'm not a commie lover but the capitalistic system have its limits and health shouldn't be a question of money, as like education.

[Connaught Ranger]

DO WE REALLY CARE?

MORE "SHOCK AND AWWWW!!" FROM THE ANTI-OBHAMAITES.

OBHAMA is THE MAIN MAN!! woot

Signed UN-SHOCKED READER IN TRANSYLVANIA :roll:

[Skutatos]

Why would this surprise anyone...really. Also there is that possibility that his plan has changed since 2007.......

[TallGuy]

The OP's avatar screams ignorance.

[CPLHUNTER]

This is no surprise since he also figured out that just taxing the top 5% of America can't come close to paying for the cost of the new healthcare spending that is proposed.

So now the talk is about taxing middle class.

Yeah providing service to all sounds like a great idea except for the little problem that the government doesn't handle anything well.

Medicare is broken, Social Security is running dry, Medicaid is broken as well and we can't even run a Cash for Clunkers program...so how do ya think the government will do w/ running healthcare??? Hmmm...

[WarriorMonk]

no one knows what the random hand of chaos will come up with...

[Aeroflot]

The OP's avatar screams ignorance.

His avatar is ridiculous rofl Why is everybody having so much fun calling Obama a socialist? It's about as ridiculous as me screaming

OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE A MALE HUMAN BEING!!!! AND YOUR SKIN IS BLACK!!!

It's like, okay, so what?

Maybe a little difference in America is just what we need.

[Morboute]

lmao, this is just silly. Health Care is soooo evil, and i like how this old video is refered to as "evidence". :roll:

but i guess anything that can be used to bash Stali... sorry i mean Obama is better then to actually worry about something seriously messed up in.

[Geezah]

DO WE REALLY CARE?

MORE "SHOCK AND AWWWW!!" FROM THE ANTI-OBHAMAITES.

OBHAMA is THE MAIN MAN!! woot

Signed UN-SHOCKED READER IN TRANSYLVANIA :roll:

And to think, my Romanian friend is a hard-core Conservative, I guess that's what happens when you grow up under Nicolae Ceauşescu.:roll:

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The American experiment has failed. It's time for change.

[The Dane]

Obama rocks

[seraosha]

You ninny, the American experiment hasn't failed, but it's not doing very well at the moment, or not as well as hoped, anyway.

[Geezah]

Obama rocks

He might have smoked it at one point, but he is in no way cool.

[BlackFlag]

I don't make enough to insure myself, Last time I went to the dentist, they charged me 400 bucks just to tell me I need to see a specialist.

[Geezah]

The American experiment has failed. It's time for change.

It works rather well when compared to the British Experiement which continues to fail those it serves.

[nullterm]

Expect alot of this. The private health companies will be screaming bloody murder all the way to the woodchipper if it does change to a public system.

Either way, the cost of the system still ends up on the population it serves. It ain't perfect, but I prefer a public system that is accountable to the people, not it's shareholders.

[seraosha]

I don't make enough to insure myself, Last time I went to the dentist, they charged me 400 bucks just to tell me I need to see a specialist.

You should have started with a better dentist.

[Geezah]

I don't make enough to insure myself, Last time I went to the dentist, they charged me 400 bucks just to tell me I need to see a specialist.


Lack of NHS dentists forces patients abroad

Nearly 80 per cent of the population no longer has an NHS dental service. But rather than going private here, increasing numbers of people are heading abroad. It may be cheaper but, as Olga Craig discovers, the personal costs can be horrific

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566872/Lack-of-NHS-dentists-forces-patients-abroad.html)

I used to go Private when I lived in the UK, and the only time I went to a NHS dentist was to get my wisdom teeth pulled(which they have to write off to the hospital for). Nine months later I got a call to report to the hospital the next day, kinda sucks having to wait nine months for treatment.

[SoftLion]

Why is everybody having so much fun calling Obama a socialist? ..................
It's like, okay, so what?

Maybe a little difference in America is just what we need.

Yeah, you're right - nothing better than the collective good to spur on the entrepreneurial juices that are (or were) the bread and butter of this country. If your difference = socialism, no thanks. Entitlement will be the bane of country.

Where's my handout! I want free health care! I'm entitled to free **** for no reason! If you are against me, I will say you don't care about the less fortunate and try to make you feel guilty! Where's my handout!

**** that.

[3rdMillhouse]

"SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS admitting his Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance
OBAMA AND THE DEMOCRATS HEATH CARE GOAL IS A PUBLIC OPTION THAT WILL ULTIMATELY ELIMINATE PRIVATE EMPLOYER PROVIDED INSURANCE
(Obama S.E.I.U. forum on health care 3/24/07, Barney Frank, Jan Schakowsky all admitting a public option will put the private insurance industry out of business) NAKED EMPEROR NEWS"



http://www.youtube.com/v/p-bY92mcOdk&eurl=

Didn't see the video but, Obama's gotta daydreaming and high on PCP if he believes public healthcare is gonna eliminate private healthcare, it's never been done in a country with such dimensions both in territory and population, such as USA, and it will never be done.


His avatar is ridiculous rofl Why is everybody having so much fun calling Obama a socialist? It's about as ridiculous as me screaming

OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE A MALE HUMAN BEING!!!! AND YOUR SKIN IS BLACK!!!

It's like, okay, so what?

Maybe a little difference in America is just what we need.

You're way out of your damn mind if you believe any sort of political and economical administrative system, born in the left, could be a good thing. Just look at China's cultural revolution, URSS' Stalin, Lenin, Brezhnev and other butchers who ruled that empire, Camboja's Red Khmer, Castro's Cuba, Kim Il Sung's and Kim Jong Il's North Korea..... all atempts at socialism. And please, do not mistake socialism with a populist social democracy.

[Mastermind]

Go ahead, dumbama...go against the insurance companies...see how long your political gravitas lasts.

Shows how terribly naive this jackass is.

Already, the Democrats are getting their ears shaved at their "Townhall" August meetings...they are canceling them as fast as they can get out of the auditorium without being tarred and feathered.

September session will be much chagrined.

[bababooey]

I needed a physical done by my doc. I had to wait 7 months! I don't see how their would be a difference in waiting.

I think what will happen is insurance companies will fill in the cracks of the public option. God knows their will be shortcomings in the system. Thats where the private insurance can step in and work their corporate magic.

[TheSteve]

Go ahead, dumbama...go against the insurance companies...see how long your political gravitas lasts.

Shows how terribly naive this jackass is.

Already, the Democrats are getting their ears shaved at their "Townhall" August meetings...they are canceling them as fast as they can get out of the auditorium without being tarred and feathered.

September session will be much chagrined.
He isn't working against the insurance companies, he is working with them . . .

And that videos "evidence" is a Obama before being president.

Do any of you guys actually read the news? Or just crazy conservative blogs or nothing at all? Obama isn't attempting to install a single payer system (unfortunately), in fact he is leaving most of the details to the men and women of congress. Yes there will probably be a public option, yes there will be more badly needed regulation. Is that socialized medicine? Far from it.

[Geezah]

I needed a physical done by my doc. I had to wait 7 months! I don't see how their would be a difference in waiting.

I think what will happen is insurance companies will fill in the cracks of the public option. God knows their will be shortcomings in the system. Thats where the private insurance can step in and work their corporate magic.

What country was this in?

[Geezah]

And that videos "evidence" is a Obama before being president.

That's right, because any radical ideas he had prior to becoming President go out the window once in the White House!

[TallGuy]

What country was this in?
The United States.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

A healthy nation is a productive nation. A productive nation is a wealthy nation. A wealthy nation and so on and so on.

Just saying

[Soldat_Américain]

"SHOCK UNCOVERED: Obama IN HIS OWN WORDS admitting his Health Care Plan will ELIMINATE private insurance
OBAMA AND THE DEMOCRATS HEATH CARE GOAL IS A PUBLIC OPTION THAT WILL ULTIMATELY ELIMINATE PRIVATE EMPLOYER PROVIDED INSURANCE
(Obama S.E.I.U. forum on health care 3/24/07, Barney Frank, Jan Schakowsky all admitting a public option will put the private insurance industry out of business) NAKED EMPEROR NEWS"



http://www.youtube.com/v/p-bY92mcOdk&eurl=
I fail to see the problem, we pay more for less.

[TheSteve]

That's right, because any radical ideas he had prior to becoming President go out the window once in the White House!
First off, universal health care isn't a radical idea, its a sensible and humane idea.

And your right, prior ideas don't just go out the window, but are all of them feasible? No. With the amount of political and corporate pressure against universal coverage, its not realistic at all. Anyone who accuses Obama of trying to push "socialized medicine" is ignorant to what is actually being put forward.

[Geezah]

The United States.

I call BS on that then. I've never waited longer than a week to get a physical.
7mths, it just does not make sense, there has to be more to it.

[Geezah]

First off, universal health care isn't a radical idea, its a sensible and humane idea.

WHY?!

Is it sensible and humane to provide a sub-standard level of care or in some cases no care what so ever?



And your right, prior ideas don't just go out the window, but are all of them feasible? No. With the amount of political and corporate pressure against universal coverage, its not realistic at all. Anyone who accuses Obama of trying to push "socialized medicine" is ignorant to what is actually being put forward.

If the NHS is a form of socialised medicine, then what Obama is pushing is socialised medicine!

[Mastermind]

First off, universal health care isn't a radical idea, its a sensible and humane idea.

And your right, prior ideas don't just go out the window, but are all of them feasible? No. With the amount of political and corporate pressure against universal coverage, its not realistic at all. Anyone who accuses Obama of trying to push "socialized medicine" is ignorant to what is actually being put forward.
Really? One Payer is not socialized? Tax money paying for it is not "Socialized"...you are extraordinarily mistaken about your statement.

The only thing that could be considered "Un-socialized" about the Obmacare plan is the President, Senators and Congresspersons will not be subject to it...just the people who have to pay for it and suffer under it.

[Mr.K]

OMG will someone think of insurance salesmen!

[TheSteve]

WHY?!

Is it sensible and humane to provide a sub-standard level of care or in some cases no care what so ever?
Your right, its more sensible and humane to provide no coverage. Over 45 million, don't have any insurance. I know you've read all these horror stories from Canada, France and what not, but have you read any from here? People don't go to doctors because they can't afford it. They put it off until its too late, "well if you came earlier, we could have treated your cancer, but now your going to die." Preventative care would save vast amounts of money. If you have pre-existing conditions, its very difficult if not impossible to get coverage under current conditions.


If the NHS is a form of socialised medicine, then what Obama is pushing is socialised medicine!
Hm, no. The doctors, nurses, and medical personnel in now way shape or form will get their salaries from the government, unlike the NHS. Even if a universal single payer system was implemented, which it will not, the hospitals would still be privately run.


Really? One Payer is not socialized? Tax money paying for it is not "Socialized"...you are extraordinarily mistaken about your statement.

The only thing that could be considered "Un-socialized" about the Obmacare plan is the President, Senators and Congresspersons will not be subject to it...just the people who have to pay for it and suffer under it.
He doesn't want a single payer system, nor do a vast majority of the democrats in congress. The single payer proponents have systematically been ignored in congress, if single payer was implemented it would be the end to the insurance companies, and they contribute far too much money to far to many democrats campaigns for that to happen.

Obama has proposed a PUBLIC OPTION. It would be a government insurance option, not government run hospitals or anything like that.

[11 Bravo]

I fail to see the problem, we pay more for less.


I fail to see what you see... but I do see that an oblahma national healthcare will be even more money for even less than now.

[11 Bravo]

Really? One Payer is not socialized? Tax money paying for it is not "Socialized"...you are extraordinarily mistaken about your statement.

The only thing that could be considered "Un-socialized" about the Obmacare plan is the President, Senators and Congresspersons will not be subject to it...just the people who have to pay for it and suffer under it.

MM ; I love the softball question that oblahma was tossed about him and his politicians getting the red carpet on the taxpayers back and his response was "that's what I'm trying to do for the american people". Why nobody smashed his facade with something like... "do you really mean that?" . If that noob proposed that every American get what the politicians do, or even half of the sweetness they get as perks on our backs we would be bankrupt minutes after the ink dried on signing any such bill !!!!.

[toowoozy]

Ezra Klein

Megan McArdle's Case Against National Health Insurance. Sort of.

In my chat today, a reader asked me to respond to Megan McArdle's lengthy case against national health insurance. The problem is that, well, there's not a lot to specifically respond to. In 1,600 words, she doesn't muster a single link to a study or argument, nor a single number that she didn't make up (what numbers do exist come in the form of thought experiments and assumptions). Megan's argument against national health insurance boils down to a visceral hatred of the government. Which is fine. Megan is a libertarian. That's, like, her journey, man. But her attack on national health insurance seems a lot more about libertarianism than it is about national health insurance.

Megan has two primary concerns. The first is that national health insurance would succeed in reducing health-care costs, and that would limit the rewards available for medical innovation (drugs, devices, etc), which would in turn reduce medical innovation and prevent future generations from enjoying wonder drugs. "If you worry about global warming," she writes, "you should worry at least as hard about medical innovation."

Second, national health care gives elites license "to wrap their claws around every aspect of everyone's life." Her primary example is obesity. Megan believes that national health insurance will give the government license to decide that we can never really want a second chocolate eclair. She also believes that the real reason most every epidemiologist in the country is worried about obesity is because they hate, and are disgusted by, poor people.

I bet you think I'm kidding about that last bit. I'm not. Let's take these in turn. Or try to, anyway.

Megan's first argument is properly understood as a simple application of economic theory. If national health insurance reduces the profit reward for medical innovation, medical innovation will decrease.

This is not an argument for or against national health insurance. Medicare, for instance, is undoubtedly America's largest purchaser of new drugs and devices. That's a big part of the reason that it is so expensive. Without Medicare, in fact, there would be a much smaller market for medical innovations, as a substantial portion of the elderly would not be able to afford heath-care insurance -- much less unlimited health-care insurance -- and could not pay for these innovations. National health insurance for the elderly, in other words, is one of the primary drivers of medical innovation.

Nor is there any reason to believe the status quo -- which Megan implicitly favors -- optimized the dollars we devote towards medical innovation. Pharmaceutical companies, for instance, spend less on drug research than on administration and marketing. You could say that administration and marketing increase their profits, which in turn let them spend more money researching drugs. But if research is so important, then maybe the profits being enjoyed by the industry are in fact too small.

In 2002, the pharmaceutical market totaled $200 billion in the United States. Maybe we should be giving them another $50 billion in grants? Or maybe not? Why? Why not? And what about the evidence that drug industry innovation is declining? And what about the defense industry? For all its waste, elevating the U.S. government to sole purchaser seems to ensure a much-higher rate of military technology innovation than if we left it to the private sector. Why wouldn't that apply to health care?

Megan doesn't say. Nor does she say whether the current system works well to maximize innovation. Or what an innovation-oriented system would look like. Or how much of GDP we should spend on innovation. Or what would happen to innovation if Medicare and Medicaid collapsed and the medical industry lost about 80 million purchasers. Or what would happen if universal health insurance brought 50 million new customers into the system. The fact that she is concerned about innovation only insofar as she can shoehorn it into an argument against national health insurance leads me to believe she is not very concerned with innovation at all.

As for Megan's other argument ... I'm sort of at a loss as to the appropriate response. A wealthy white elite, she writes that national health insurance is "a way to extend and expand the cultural hegemony of wealthy white elites." Her argument is that "when you listen to obesity experts, or health wonks, talk, their assertions boil down to the idea that overweight people are either too stupid to understand why they get fat, or have not yet been made sufficiently aware of society's disgust for their condition." I'd be interested to know how many obesity experts Megan has listened to. My guess: very, very few.

I actually do talk to public health experts. Frequently. I know, for instance, that the Rudd Center for Food Policy and Obesity, which is based out of Yale, has policy briefs arguing that weight discrimination is real, it is pervasive, and it is properly understood as a social justice issue. Does Megan? If she does, she's not mentioning it. But it seems like the sort of thing you'd want to address if your argument is that obesity researchers are simply revolted by fat people and want them to face more social stigma.

Indeed, none of my many talks with obesity researchers have touched on the issue of the poor being idiots. Nor do they seem to think that the obese are insufficiently aware of society's aesthetic standards. Megan doesn't have straw men here. She has invented imaginary friends for her argument.

Rather, the obesity researchers I know believe a number of complicated and dispiriting things. One is that the human brain is wired to protect against the dangers of caloric scarcity. As a species, we have evolved to maximize caloric intake, to make the most of periods of abundance.

The problem is, we now live amid constant abundance. Food is not only available, but cheap. It is the center of our social lives and the respite from our workdays. It is the way we spend time with our families and the way we connect with our culture. It is how we meet mates and hang out with friends. Corporations spends hundreds of billions of dollars developing ways to make food taste better and creating advertising campaigns to make us want it more. Restaurants and drive-throughs and frozen foods have reduced the energy required to create a meal. Portion sizes have shot up. And even as our caloric inputs have grown, our expenditures have decreased. We drive rather than walk. We sit rather than stand. We work at desks rather than in fields. This is why obesity experts think Americans are fatter. Megan may, again, be aware of this research. If so, she's not letting us know about it.

Nor does Megan suggest she understands why health wonks or obesity experts spend their days -- rather than write the occasional dismissive blog post -- on this issue. For all her talk of elitism, poor communities are being ravaged by chronic disease. Type II diabetes in particular. These diseases are highly correlated with obesity. The reason people focus on obesity is that, in general, it comes first, and so you can address it earlier, and the things you do to prevent obesity -- better diet, more exercise -- are the things you do to prevent chronic disease.

It's also worth noting the disconnect between Megan's first argument and her second. In her first argument, she is worried that future generations will not have access to the very best medical technology. In her second argument, she is worried that the government will swoop into poor communities and ... give them access to medical technology, and develop programs to reduce the incidence of chronic disease based on the best preventive health-care research. That will interrupt their natural state of being fat and sick, and that's pretty much the definition of imperialism.

I've left out the last part of her essay because, again, I'm not sure what to do with it. Eventually, she stops saying that wealthy whites will simply sneer at poor blacks and decides that national health insurance is one-stop before fascism. We learn, for instance, that a national health insurance program will lead to the government deciding we can't eat a second chocolate eclair. It's like she totally forgot that France existed. And that's only a few sentences after she writes that national health insurance will remind us that "the elderly are also wasting a lot of our hard earned money with their stupid 'last six months' end-of-life care." It's like she totally forgot that Medicare existed.

But I don't believe Megan is unaware of France or Medicare. I don't believe she is incapable of understanding why people care about chronic disease or think obesity is a problem. I haven't seen any evidence that she's interested in medical innovation for its own sake or has thought hard about how to maximize it. As such, I don't really think Megan's post is an argument against national health insurance. It's not even really about national health insurance. It's about the government as it appears to a libertarian, if not to the rest of us.

[59Diesel]

Ahhh more Sheeple the Entitlement Mentality.

If people really wanted "change" they would go after the misusers of the healthcare frauds.

Medicaid and Medicare. So many people miuse the public help systems that it costs money. If they would have simple Fraud cops they would save more money.

I'm sorry I for one don't like the idea of footing the bill so the Mom with 12 kids and 6 Child Support checks can get her Oxy fix for free.

You know only like 1% of Medicaid and Medicare is spent to go after fraud.

Good Quote from someone in the industry.



The BIG problem with govt-run health care is that it cannot exist without govt control of doctor's earnings. Even without a law stating that 'doctors make this much money', the act of controlling when patients go to the doctor, and what procedures they can have, and what the govt will pay for procedures WILL limit the income of doctors.
In the future, fewer people will be willing to be doctors, and the wait for care will get longer OR the qualifications to practice medicine will have to be lowered to bring more people into the profession. Either way, the patients lose.

The Obamunism health care plan would be easy to defeat IF more of our lawmakers who say that they oppose it actually had spines. If those who oppose Obamacare would collectively insist that the bill include a provision stating that every member of the House and Senate would have to go on the plan (and drop their current plan), it would not stand a snowball's chance of passage. Not a chance it will happen, though, since not one of them considers his or herself to be one of us. Their idea of public service does not include sacrificing their 'special status' when it comes to healthcare.


If you realy think this is going to help someone can you seriously give me a good example of how the Government has stepped in and 1) efficiencies 2) cost savings?

[redvand]

From White House blog:
There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.

So send them the leading source of HC misinformation: www.whitehouse.gov (http://www.whitehouse.gov) :)

[Geezah]

http://www.youtube.com/v/p-bY92mcOdk

At 1:01, Obama in his own words saying he is in favour of a single payer healthcare plan!

[Derbedeu]

http://www.youtube.com/v/p-bY92mcOdk

At 1:01, Obama in his own words saying he is in favour of a single payer healthcare plan!

Believe it or not, there are supporters out there of a single-payer healthcare plan (count me among them).

[Jobu]

Obama caught in another lie?

His cheerleaders don't care. They support the lie.

[Power_serj]

First off, universal health care isn't a radical idea, its a sensible and humane idea.


United States already has the best health care system in the world. Since everyone in the United States is required by law to be treated, in a sense, we already have "Universal Healthcare." The part that is not "Universal" is that some people pay insurance to go to the doctor, while others go to the hospital for a cold and don't pay a dime, and that lifts the price for those that pay. That is the problem, and I think people get that confused, or purposely distort the facts to further push the agenda.

[redvand]

United States already has the best health care system in the world. Since everyone in the United States is required by law to be treated, in a sense, we already have "Universal Healthcare." The part that is not "Universal" is that some people pay insurance to go to the doctor, while others go to the hospital for a cold and don't pay a dime, and that lifts the price for those that pay. That is the problem, and I think people get that confused, or purposely distort the facts to further push the agenda.
There is the guy who has called 911 600+ times this year so he can get to the hospital. They estimate that he has cost Erie County and the hospital $360,000 so far this year.

[Geezah]

Believe it or not, there are supporters out there of a single-payer healthcare plan (count me among them).

Well, if it is implemented, just remember that you supported the fecal matter that will replace the first class system we currently have in place.:(

[RxOnco]

Believe it or not, there are supporters out there of a single-payer healthcare plan (count me among them).

I'm gonna guess that you either don't have a job, don't have insurance, or both.

[Roy Batty]

" the first class system we currently have in place".:(

$7600 costs to a couple (with private insurance) to have a child (2004 averages...allow for inflation). I have 2 kids and it did'nt cost me a dime for their mother's hospital care.

[Geezah]

$7600 costs to a couple (with private insurance) to have a child (2004 averages...allow for inflation). I have 2 kids and it did'nt cost me a dime for their mother's hospital care.

Do you pay taxes?

[Roy Batty]

Do you pay taxes?

Yup..........and they pay for all the medical coverage I needed (without further private insurance) thanks.

[Albatross]

If this passes, it will put tens of thousands out of work. If not hundreds of thousands.

Everyone in the insurance world to start with, people whom are associated with that thru third party firms.

That man is a moron.

[Albatross]

@sig, whats the tax rate in Canada?

[Roy Batty]

@sig, whats the tax rate in Canada?

It depends on how much you make. I pay a fair bit but I also make a fair amount.

[Noons86]

I'm surprised no one gets what's really going on here. Its all part of Obama's secret plan to promote personal responsibility and self reliance. Of course universal health care is an inefficient health care system. That's the whole point. We all know that America has a lot of health problems (obesity, etc). Under a horribly inefficient health care system that is the butt of every health related joke, people will no longer be able to rely on their doctors to "bail them out" every time they get sick. Thus they'll have to take care of themselves. So by running health care into the ground, the current administration will stimulate healthier living, and create a society based on personal responsibility, independence, and individualism that republicans have always espoused.p-)

[Mackie]

You ninny, the American experiment hasn't failed, but it's not doing very well at the moment, or not as well as hoped, anyway.

It's underperformed for years in the global comparison. Thanks to trade deficit.
Taxes for the middle class are not surprising since the healthcare program is a shifting. Or did somebody thought it would be free for them?

[Albatross]

It depends on how much you make. I pay a fair bit but I also make a fair amount.

I know its always a bit higher in countries where medicine is socialistic.

I don't have a real problem with universal healthcare, its the massive volume of job loss and socialism of medical care that I have an issue with.

[Roy Batty]

I know its always a bit higher in countries where medicine is socialistic.

I don't have a real problem with universal healthcare, its the massive volume of job loss and socialism of medical care that I have an issue with.

I certainly would never claim that the Canadian system is the model to follow. Some countries (Nordic countries come to mind) have much better systems.

Dont forget the civil servant jobs that would be created to manage and administrate any federal healthcare system.

[Derbedeu]

I'm gonna guess that you either don't have a job, don't have insurance, or both.


I'm gonna guess you're wrong.

[Geezah]

Yup..........and they pay for all the medical coverage I needed (without further private insurance) thanks.

Then you paid for it out of your taxes and so did everyone else that works.

So this idea that it is free is ridiculous, because I paid for a sub-standard level of care in the UK through my taxes, but only pay my deductible for the high level of care I recieve here.

[seraosha]

It's underperformed for years in the global comparison. Thanks to trade deficit.
Taxes for the middle class are not surprising since the healthcare program is a shifting. Or did somebody thought it would be free for them?

Underperformed compared to which economy, though? China's? Hardly the deathknell for our Republic.
And higher taxes are what Americans voted for, those that supported the current administrations bid for power really don't have a leg to stand on...and the rest of us are unfortunately in the position of saying "Told you so."

[Jobu]

If people think health care is a mess now, wait until the government gets a hold of it.

Have they ever run anything efficiently? Is there any possibility in anyone's mind that a government-run healthcare system will run smoothly or bring costs down?

I think everyone must admit it will be an enormous cluster**** and costs will skyrocket as entitlements always do. Look at Social Security. Look at Medicare. Look at the Post Office (they only had a $7 billion loss this year and are closing thousands of locations.)

Something as small as a $1 billion Cash for Clunkers program tripled in costs in 1 week and created a federal backlog in the tens of thousands.

WTF do you think is going to happen when 50 million Americans all go to the doctor in the first week to take advantage of their new "free" healthcare?

[Roy Batty]

Then you paid for it out of your taxes and so did everyone else that works.

So this idea that it is free is ridiculous, because I paid for a sub-standard level of care in the UK through my taxes, but only pay my deductible for the high level of care I recieve here.

I never said it was free. I said it did'nt cost me at the hospital. Under your system I would pay taxes, pay for private insurance and then still have to hand over $7600 for each childbirth. Who the hell is that money going to? I dont think the Canadian system is perfect but at least I dont feel like I'm being robbed by my doctor.

[Albatross]

They just need to regulate insurance, how the hell can you go to a doctor in one country and it costs 500 bucks and in another its 5000.

[Jobu]

They just need to regulate insurance, how the hell can you go to a doctor in one country and it costs 500 bucks and in another its 5000.

Because the doctor in one country is probably paying $100k+ in malpractice insurance due to the threat of lawsuits.

Tort reform would go a long way in bringing costs down but the Democrats won't have it. They are beholden to the Trial lawyers Association who have too much money to lose. If the lawyers lose money, the Democrats lose an extremely large percentage of their campaign contributions.

[Geezah]

I never said it was free. I said it did'nt cost me at the hospital.

This is what you wrote,


I have 2 kids and it did'nt cost me a dime for their mother's hospital care.

So what you actually meant to write was that it didn't cost you anything at the time of the hospital visit?

If that is the case, then that is the same here, as you are not billed there and then but they send the bill to you at a later date, which you can work out a payment plan on.



Under your system I would pay taxes, pay for private insurance and then still have to hand over $7600 for each childbirth. Who the hell is that money going to? I dont think the Canadian system is perfect but at least I dont feel like I'm being robbed by my doctor.

I pay less in taxes than I would if they implemented socialised medicine, and as far as what you pay to the hospital, it is your deductible.
I want to pay for the treatment I(or my family) recieve, than pay all year round for a sub-standard level of care.

[toowoozy]

There is just so much misinformation about single payer or universal healthcare.
In regards to taxes Canada versus the U.S. From OECD data 2005 the percent of household taxes comparatively paid: Canada 31.6% U.S. 29.1%
So the difference is not that great, but Canadians have a greater median household income (OECD) 53,634 for Canadians 50,233 for the U.S. - and we don't have to pay for healthcare insurance or costs beyond the tax rate, unlike many Americans.
Basically healthcare reform in the states is not about healthcare, it's about the lucrative insurance industry - an industry that made billions off the backs of hard working Americans, yet tens of thousands of Americans have to declare bankruptcy every year just to get healthcare.
The Canadian system is far from perfect, but in comparing the Canadian system and the American system the Canadian system returns better health outcomes for lower cost than does the American system (http://www.openmedicine.ca/article/view/8/1)
- and in Canada you will never go bankrupt to pay for this service.
Problems with the Canadian system - shortage of family physicians and some waiting for non-life threatening procedures.
Question: What does an individual pay on average for their healthcare coverage in the U.S. if it is not covered by their employer?

[Roy Batty]

This is what you wrote,



So what you actually meant to write was that it didn't cost you anything at the time of the hospital visit?

If that is the case, then that is the same here, as you are not billed there and then but they send the bill to you at a later date, which you can work out a payment plan on.



I pay less in taxes than I would if they implemented socialised medicine, and as far as what you pay to the hospital, it is your deductible.
I want to pay for the treatment I(or my family) recieve, than pay all year round for a sub-standard level of care.

Yer right out to lunch Geezah. The most closed minded person on MP.net. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Albatross]

Because the doctor in one country is probably paying $100k+ in malpractice insurance due to the threat of lawsuits.

Tort reform would go a long way in bringing costs down but the Democrats won't have it. They are beholden to the Trial lawyers Association who have too much money to lose. If the lawyers lose money, the Democrats lose an extremely large percentage of their campaign contributions.

You have a good point, and one that I haven't forgotten. I think that lawsuits and such are endemic to American society (as sad as it is), and I think they were already capping malpractice suits. There is obviously more to be done, but have to start somewhere.

[Mackie]

Underperformed compared to which economy, though? China's? Hardly the deathknell for our Republic.
And higher taxes are what Americans voted for, those that supported the current administrations bid for power really don't have a leg to stand on...and the rest of us are unfortunately in the position of saying "Told you so."

If you cut down the growth in the last years with trade deficit you get numbers under 1%.
Higher taxes or cuts are the only thing to stabilize the budget now. And that's not only because of Obamas spending orgy. The budget was catastrophal for years. I don't jump on the GW bashing bandwagon but to be realisitc, this guy did nothing. He cut taxes without an effect. This crisis was signalized by some indicators. And with a negative saving rate, Washington knew the impact on the population.
But that was years ago. Important politics are real reforms, science or education. Healthcare is an domestic industry - clever managed it brings jobs and exports.

You think private health care is a wunderful thing? I guarantee you that you cannot build up a competition everywhere in this sector. We don't talk about bakers or barbers. Healthcare is a damn expensive business where two local competitors are mostly impossible. The results are monopoly like private clinics in the hands of pharma industry paying them million if they buy their products. There is no doubt that a national system wastes some money but private only isn't the best way.

My 2 cents:
Keep it private where you have real competition. Where you can can chose the service/clinic/doctor.
Use a national system for the rest but keep it transparent and kick the lobby out. In reality the industry and lobby manipulate a effective system.

A good example is Switzerland.

[Geezah]

Yer right out to lunch Geezah. The most closed minded person on MP.net. Welcome to my ignore list.

How can I be closed minded if I have experience both socialised medicine and that in the free market?

Personally I prefer to pay for the service I recieve, rather than pay for socialised medicine which I have far more experience with and hate.

Knock yourself out with the ignore list........

[Mastermind]

Closed minded = You disagree with me. I can't refute your arguments logically and with facts...

You're closed minded if you don't completely accept my argument and use it to totally replace your argument.

Do I have that about right?

[Flamming_Python]

Wow how brainwashed some people are. In any other epoch a political leader abolishing public healthcare would have caused an outrage and widespread protests by common people; but here is Obama introducing it and he is greeted with opposition from people that are worried that their health and medical care will no longer be held in a privelaged status above those of others.

[59Diesel]

Let's not forget the costs involved to go to school to become a doctor. Or the costs to start a insurance company.

If anyone really wanted to do something about REFORM go after those who commit fraud. Free up the money being misused.

Many people from socialized health care areas come to America for treatment. Should explain things to you.

Good medical treatment costs money. You can still get treatment and pay for it.

If you don't have the money work with the company make payments.

Costs are high to pay for the technology of things. The treatment and speedy service. So you have to pay for it.

My Reform would be instate a force to take care of the frauders and misusers of the system.

Then no more healthcare to illegals. Cause that costs us big money.

[Mastermind]

no one knows what the random hand of chaos will come up with...
That's true...but, this Obama cat is not random. He and his cronies have a very clear cut agenda.

[xav]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8UjY3YDlwA

[Mastermind]

Wow how brainwashed some people are. In any other epoch a political leader abolishing public healthcare would have caused an outrage and widespread protests by common people; but here is Obama introducing it and he is greeted with opposition from people that are worried that their health and medical care will no longer be held in a privelaged status above those of others.
You got it wrong.

It is no longer about health care...it is now about an unfair system, an outrageously expensive system run by the government and not medical professionals. It is about socialism, abortion, freedom to choose, euthanasia, apportioned health care, flippant and offhand disregard for seniors and their right to fight for their own lives, about the heavy hand of bureaucracy getting between patient and doctor and it is about the obvious and usual mad grab for power Democrats usually perform...this time clumsily.

It is about lies and more lies...thus a failure of trust between Americans and their government representatives and their President...it is about illegal aliens getting free rides. It is about the loss of respect politicians seem to be voicing toward the people who elected them...

It is about a whole lot of things that have nothing at all to do with health care.

[Geezah]

^Amen..............

[TheSteve]

You got it wrong.

It is no longer about health care...it is now about an unfair system, an outrageously expensive system run by the government and not medical professionals. It is about socialism, abortion, freedom to choose, euthanasia, apportioned health care, flippant and offhand disregard for seniors and their right to fight for their own lives, about the heavy hand of bureaucracy getting between patient and doctor and it is about the obvious and usual mad grab for power Democrats usually perform...this time clumsily.

It is about lies and more lies...thus a failure of trust between Americans and their government representatives and their President...it is about illegal aliens getting free rides. It is about the loss of respect politicians seem to be voicing toward the people who elected them...

It is about a whole lot of things that have nothing at all to do with health care.
Abortion? Euthanasia? Illegal immigration? Wait, are we talking about health care?

You sound to me to be an incredibly ignorant, partisan individual.


How can I be closed minded if I have experience both socialised medicine and that in the free market?

Personally I prefer to pay for the service I recieve, rather than pay for socialised medicine which I have far more experience with and hate.

Knock yourself out with the ignore list........
I think he is saying your sound ignorant because you won't accept any form of government run care, with what seems like no exceptions, because of your own experiences in the UK. Does our theoretical system have to be like NHS? No, it doesn't, and it wouldn't be either. Its great you have enough money for you and your family to pay for service, but many, in fact tens of millions of your fellow citizens do not. But helping them would be too, eh, communist, right?

You should check out this book called Sick, by Jonathan Cohn. It can be found at most local public libraries, I know the idea of taxes funding books that anybody can read is a bit too commie for you, but its good read. Its not some liberal, left-wing, nut job author either, just good journalistic work that highlights some of the major problems with the health care system in the United States.

[TheSteve]

I know its always a bit higher in countries where medicine is socialistic.

I don't have a real problem with universal healthcare, its the massive volume of job loss and socialism of medical care that I have an issue with.

Yeah, not a lot of jobs would be lost if a national system would be implemented. There is a great Q&A section in the decription of HR 676, the Single Payer bill in the House of representatives.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-676

The first question asks how many jobs would be lost here is the answer:

lease refer to the exhaustive study http://www.calnurses.org/research/pdfs/ihsp_sp_economic_study_2009.pdf which shows that this law would result in 2.6 million new jobs, mostly in the health care provider area which is what we need most. The jobs that would be lost are primarily those of the CEOs and upper management of the insurance corporations and those are not eligible, or in need of, unemployment benefits. Overhead costs on the order of the Medicare system are to be expected, 4% as opposed to the current overhead costs of the insurance industry of 25% or more. The "total true cost" for the program would be much less than the current $2.5 trillion that we currently spend for health care with profit making insurance corporations. This system would take the $300 billion that they currently add to the cost of actual direct care and use it to provide care to the currently unserved and underserved and still have money left to eliminate deductibles and copays for every American. It's simplicity itself - everyone in at 5% of taxable income or less, means nobody left out. This exhaustive study was done by the Institute for Health and Social Policy because the Congressional Budget Office has not yet been allowed to do its own exhaustive study.

[Geezah]

Abortion? Euthanasia? Illegal immigration? Wait, are we talking about health care?

Will Government run healthcare pay for abortions.......after all there are those that are completely against killing the unborn, yet their taxes would fund it. And would illegal immigrants be entitled to healthcare considering it will be for everyone, or is there a way to isolate those that are not worthy?



I think he is saying your sound ignorant because you won't accept any form of government run care, with what seems like no exceptions, because of your own experiences in the UK.

Just what have the Government ever run right, so why should we take a system that works and turn it upside down?



Does our theoretical system have to be like NHS? No, it doesn't, and it wouldn't be either.

It would be socialised medicine, so it would be like the NHS, a complete mess.



Its great you have enough money for you and your family to pay for service, but many, in fact tens of millions of your fellow citizens do not.

I was put on temporary layoff in Jan and it was made permanant in June, yet currently we are able to keep our affairs in order and budget our money correctly. It has not stopped us from visiting the doctor when needed.



But helping them would be too, eh, communist, right?

There are charities that help out the needy, and while I understand there are those that are in real need, there are those that take advantage of the system. I saw it too many times while working for Rent-A-Center.



You should check out this book called Sick, by Jonathan Cohn. It can be found at most local public libraries, I know the idea of taxes funding books that anybody can read is a bit too commie for you, but its good read. Its not some liberal, left-wing, nut job author either, just good journalistic work that highlights some of the major problems with the health care system in the United States.

So healthcare is now compared to the library, what next......the water treatment plant.

[TheSteve]

Because the doctor in one country is probably paying $100k+ in malpractice insurance due to the threat of lawsuits.

Tort reform would go a long way in bringing costs down but the Democrats won't have it. They are beholden to the Trial lawyers Association who have too much money to lose. If the lawyers lose money, the Democrats lose an extremely large percentage of their campaign contributions.

Malpractice is not a major cause of high prices here in the states.


Malpractice, as it turns out, is not the cause of our higher medical bills, according to the study. It found that malpractice payments -- settlements and judgments -- were a small portion of overall health spending and were lower in the U.S. than in Canada and Britian[/URL]. The average malpractice payout in the U.S. was $265,103 in 2001, compared with $309,417 in Canada and $411,171 in Britain.[URL]http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/12/business/fi-spend12 (http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/12/business/fi-spend12#)

[TheSteve]

Will Government run healthcare pay for abortions.......after all there are those that are completely against killing the unborn, yet their taxes would fund it. And would illegal immigrants be entitled to healthcare considering it will be for everyone, or is there a way to isolate those that are not worthy?

Well there are many ideas out there, getting an ID card at birth, or something like that. These are pretty petty details though. I don't want to get into an Abortion debate. I don't like my tax dollars being invested into a bloated, unnecessarily large military budget, but what can I do? I can vote a certain way, become active and try to change that. Abortion is legal, assuming a Single Payer system was implemented it would only make sense that it would be covered as well.


Just what have the Government ever run right, so why should we take a system that works and turn it upside down?

Again, it works if you can pay for it. And if you aren't too old or with a pre-existing/chronic condition. Our healthcare system is crumbling, the number of uninsured is rising rapidly (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737)(Follow Link Please). For profit health insurance companies don't want to insure people who will produce losses, basically those who need help the most. Medicare and medicaid attempt to pick up the rest, but it doesn't always work.


I was put on temporary layoff in Jan and it was made permanant in June, yet currently we are able to keep our affairs in order and budget our money correctly. It has not stopped us from visiting the doctor when needed.

Its great you managed your money, congratulations. Other people are no so fortunate, especially individuals with chronic conditions that end up losing jobs or don't have any employer based insurance (Which is rapidly declining as well).


There are charities that help out the needy, and while I understand there are those that are in real need, there are those that take advantage of the system. I saw it too many times while working for Rent-A-Center.

Charities are great, I agree, but they are VOLUNTARY. There will always be ****wads trying to take advantage of things, but is that reason enough not to provide anything to those who need it? I don't think so.


So healthcare is now compared to the library, what next......the water treatment plant.
Just recommending a good read, thats all.

[Mastermind]

Abortion? Euthanasia? Illegal immigration? Wait, are we talking about health care?

You sound to me to be an incredibly ignorant, partisan individual.


I think he is saying your sound ignorant because you won't accept any form of government run care, with what seems like no exceptions, because of your own experiences in the UK. Does our theoretical system have to be like NHS? No, it doesn't, and it wouldn't be either. Its great you have enough money for you and your family to pay for service, but many, in fact tens of millions of your fellow citizens do not. But helping them would be too, eh, communist, right?

You should check out this book called Sick, by Jonathan Cohn. It can be found at most local public libraries, I know the idea of taxes funding books that anybody can read is a bit too commie for you, but its good read. Its not some liberal, left-wing, nut job author either, just good journalistic work that highlights some of the major problems with the health care system in the United States.


Yes, Abortion...have you not read the latest? Today’s news-
, (I'll use the uber left NPR site so you can believe it is true)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106581890,

telling the world how much the abortion issue has damaged the Socialized medicine Bill....Dems are trying to find just the right sneaky verbiage to squeeze in the payment of tax dollars for abortions...which the SCOTUS has ruled unconstitutional!

So, now who is the uniformed ignoramus?

Yes - Illegal immigration - (another lefty site...for your edification)

http://tothecenter.com/news.php?readmore=10755

The current version of the bill that came out of the democrat run committee has specifically left out any references to Illegal Immigrants...Hmmmmm...wonder why? Oh, Yeah...so they will be able to gain full access to health care right along REAL Americans...clogging the system...Docs will be treating their scabies and head lice while Americans who are paying for it are dying in the hallways.

So, now who is the uniformed ignoramus?

Yes, euthanasia - (I dunno about the political leanings on this one, so take your chances, Skippy…personally, I don’t really care if you believe it or not because I know facts don’t mean much to Bambie Buddies)

http://www.lifenews.com/bio2896.html

"Lawmakers Confirm House Health Care Bill Promotes Euthanasia Among Elderly"

That's right...EUTHANASIA...And the illustrious one, BO himself has even flippantly said (paraphrasing) , Well, if someone has lived so long, it would be ludicrous to spend so much money on them for such a short period of life anyway....Well just keep them comfortable until the end.

I invite you to do your own research on that one...I just can't stomach the jerk long enough to do it for you.

So, now who is the uniformed ignoramus?

Although it is quite typical of the leftists to just come out calling people names rather than address the issues being discussed* I have to take umbrage with the "incredibly ignorant" accusation...although I happily will wear the "Partisan" label

*(usually because the lefty positions are completely indefensible and the lefties are only parroting Pelosi Talking Points anyway and have no idea of the facts behind the real issues)

[Jobu]

Malpractice is not a major cause of high prices here in the states.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/12/business/fi-spend12

I'm quite sure I specifically said malpractice insurance.

[BiZ]

United States already has the best health care system in the world.

Quite clearly you haven't been outside the US then to any other First World countries with health care systems far superior to that in the US.

[budgie]

You got it wrong.

It is no longer about health care...it is now about an unfair system, an outrageously expensive system run by the government and not medical professionals. It is about socialism, abortion, freedom to choose, euthanasia, apportioned health care, flippant and offhand disregard for seniors and their right to fight for their own lives, about the heavy hand of bureaucracy getting between patient and doctor and it is about the obvious and usual mad grab for power Democrats usually perform...this time clumsily.

It is about lies and more lies...thus a failure of trust between Americans and their government representatives and their President...it is about illegal aliens getting free rides. It is about the loss of respect politicians seem to be voicing toward the people who elected them...

It is about a whole lot of things that have nothing at all to do with health care.

You forgot Guns, Gays and Jesus....

You know what. Americans are not ready for public healthcare. Go ahead let 40 something million people go without coverage. In the end it will be worse for your economy to let 'em rot.

[Nodak]

I am not sure why people have problem with Communism or Socialism...
The system worked pretty well in the former Yugoslavia.
(Well,at least nobody starved to death)

[Geezah]

You forgot Guns, Gays and Jesus....

You know what. Americans are not ready for public healthcare. Go ahead let 40 something million people go without coverage. In the end it will be worse for your economy to let 'em rot.

40million is a well inflated number and you know it!

The 12million+ illegals in this Country can go #$@% themsleves, and those that choose not to get any type of healthcare, well, that is there choice, as to the rest of the Country they have spoken. Get over it!

[Atlantic Friend]

It is about socialism, abortion, freedom to choose, euthanasia, apportioned health care, flippant and offhand disregard for seniors and their right to fight for their own lives, about the heavy hand of bureaucracy getting between patient and doctor and it is about the obvious and usual mad grab for power Democrats usually perform...this time clumsily.

But are all these issues so closely linked that you cannot have one without having the other? The US has no National Health care System as I understand it, and yet late-pregnancy abortions that would be denied in some European countries are allowed in some US States, if I'm not mistaken.

And how having a national health care system would lead to Socialism and euthanasia? A strong NHS can live together with a strong private insurance industry, as is proven everyday in Europe.

[JKD]

40million is a well inflated number and you know it!

The 12million+ illegals in this Country can go #$@% themsleves, and those that choose not to get any type of healthcare, well, that is there choice, as to the rest of the Country they have spoken. Get over it!

Illegal aliens and those who choose not to have insurance are not the only ones without insurance. The issue is not that clear cut and you know it.

[Johnny_H02]

Jesus told me healthcare reform was wrong....

[deagle]

a capitalist (for better and worse) economy with an communististic (for better and worse) healthcare. worth a shot.

[Mastermind]

I know our government has no business getting into the health care business. It has no business getting into the insurance business. It has no business getting into the automobile business...in fact, it has no business getting into private business at all!

In just the few seven months this communist loving Obama administration has been in business, it has driven the economy way past any known limits in deficits...it has squandered more than a trillion dollars on a very foolish "Spend our way out of Recession" campaign, it has divided the American people as nothing has since the Civil War, it has attempted to socialize thousands of private businesses, from banks to heavy industry, and it has begun attempts to completely socialize our medical system. This is the most dangerous and foolish administration this nation has ever faced...now, Obama is going into our schools to assault the minds of our children. He is following directly in the steps of every petty potentate dictator that has ever paced the surface of this earth and eventually, this little jerk is going to try to make one step too far with Americans. Then, we will see the measure of Americans..the world will see them for what they are. They will either resist or they will simply whimper away to the socialism the Democrats and Obama want to enslave us with.

Ether way, they will certainly receive the government they deserve.

[Parx400]

First off I love my Private plan. It cost me under 100 bucks a month for everything. I even had 2 sinues surgerys that cost me about 1700 each.

I say let the dems have the public option. Make them pass it with a 50% budget change so the country knows they rammed it through. The US government cant run anything. It will fall apart and cost us more. When the private companies go out of business and we all are stuck on Obama care we can look back and laugh at the Liberals and never vote for them again.

[Dominique]

My personal opinion on this subject is this, while I have some serious issues with the current health care proposals, it doesn't mean I'm totally against the idea of government provided insurance. I just don't think it's economically feasible. The only way I can see thenm paying for this is to raise taxes, they can sugar coat it, and call it something else, but it'll be a tax increase.

As for those of you who are so adamant about the government staying out of health care, I've got a suggestion, if you're willing to put your money where your mouth is, and you're currently in, or prior military, quit using military medical facilities, or VA hospitals. Start paying out of pocket to go see a civilian doctor.

If you're a civilian and you, or any of your family members, are receiving any type of Medicade, or Medicare benefits stop taking the money. The same goes with prescription benefits plan, as those are all tax payer funded, government run health care plans.

Sound fair?

[chauncy republicans]

First of all, VA benefits are not handouts!

Most of us go and get an education, and then a job, and are able to pay for insurance, or participate in an HMO. It's called listening to your parents, and planning for the future. The American people are not responsible for some asshole's lack of foresight.

[Dominique]

First of all, VA benefits are not handouts!

Did I say they were handouts? Nope, I said they were tax payer funded, government run programs, correct? What I said, and will stand by is this, if you truly have problem with government run healthcare, then don't use any form of it, period. If not, get down off the high horse.


Most of us go and get an education, and then a job, and are able to pay for insurance, or participate in an HMO. It's called listening to your parents, and planning for the future. The American people are not responsible for some asshole's lack of foresight.

I know many people that listened to their parents, worked hard, and are still out of a job. you can't predict the future and neither can I. How many guys working for car companies or banks that are now of job thought that the economy would tank?

With that said, I'm not on the Obama band wagon when it comes to universal health care, but I do think the US health care system needs a serious overhaul, and there needs to be an option for those who either don't work (say a full time student), are between jobs (the guy who's company just laid him off after 20 years of faithful service), or someone who's got a "previous condition," but wants to change jobs/careers.

[JKD]

First of all, VA benefits are not handouts!

Most of us go and get an education, and then a job, and are able to pay for insurance, or participate in an HMO. It's called listening to your parents, and planning for the future. The American people are not responsible for some asshole's lack of foresight.

What if someone gets an education, and then a job, becomes too sick to work, loses their job, and is unable to pay for private insurance?

[chauncy republicans]

Did I say they were handouts? Nope, I said they were tax payer funded, government run programs, correct? What I said, and will stand by is this, if you truly have problem with government run healthcare, then don't use any form of it, period. If not, get down off the high horse.
VA benefits are paid for by the individual's sacrifice and service, and an Armed Service member is also a government employee, so this is comparing apples to oranges.

I know many people that listened to their parents, worked hard, and are still out of a job. you can't predict the future and neither can I. How many guys working for car companies or banks that are now of job thought that the economy would tank?
It just goes to show you can never get comfortable, it's not the American people's responsibility to nurture society's failures.

[JKD]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/06/04/hscout627785.html


They randomly surveyed 2,314 bankruptcy filers in early 2007 and found that 77.9 percent of those bankrupted by medical problems had health insurance at the start of the bankrupting illness, including 60 percent who had private coverage.

Most of those bankrupted by medical problems were "solidly middle class" before they suffered financial disaster -- two-thirds were homeowners and three-fifths had gone to college. In many cases, these people were hit at the same time by high medical bills and loss of income as illness forced breadwinners to take time off work. It was common for illness to lead to job loss and the disappearance of work-based health insurance.

The study also found that well-insured families often had to cope with high out-of-pocket medical costs for co-payments, deductibles and uncovered services. Medical bills for medically bankrupt families with private insurance averaged $17,749, compared to $26,971 for the uninsured and $22,568 for those who initially had private coverage but lost it during their illness...

[chauncy republicans]

Savings accounts are often quite useful.

[Winger]

I currently shell out $450.00/month for some damn good coverage. I pay out of pocket the first $2400.00 for the year which I fund through my employers HSA account. I currently shell out $100.00 per month into the HSA and my employer matches it so over the 1 year period my HSA funds my $2400.00 deductible so I'm really shelling out $550.00 per month not taking into account what my employer is adding the $450.00 premium. Probably another $450.00 per month. That's $12K in total per year and that is a lot money.

With that said, I can support my family's healthcare and account for my contribution whether it be privatized or socialized because I'm employed. The minute I become unemployed for whatever reason I'm screwed if I can't get a job with comparable health care.

The don't get sick philosophy isn't a philosophy. **** happens when you least expect it. The current methodology of having the uninsured living off Emergency Room healthcare is worse for us a whole than giving them long term preventative treatment. Yes, I'm currently working and my employment is pretty assured but you never really do know.

[Dominique]

VA benefits are paid for by the individual's sacrifice and service, and an Armed Service member is also a government employee, so this is comparing apples to oranges.

VA benefits are paid for by US taxpayer dollars, not the individual service member's work. And most of the people making use of VA hospitals are no longer on active duty, so how are they government employees?


It just goes to show you can never get comfortable, it's not the American people's responsibility to nurture society's failures.

So the guy who's been working at company x for 20 years, and gets a pink slip is a failure? I hope whoever your working for doesn't decide either downsize, restructure, or outsource work, as by your definition that would make anyone who lost their job because of it a failure.

[chauncy republicans]

That's why you save. In the most simplest of forms, when you loose your job and expect somebody else to pay for your insurance, your essentially giving your problem to somebody else. After all you wont be the who has to deal with it, your just collecting a check.

[Dominique]

Savings accounts are often quite useful.

And without insurance, they'll be drained VERY quickly.

[Dominique]

That's why you save. In the most simplest of forms, when you loose your job and expect somebody else to pay for your insurance, your essentially giving your problem to somebody else. After all you wont be the who has to deal with it, your just collecting a check.

I don't expect someone else to pay for my insurance, just as I don't expect someone to pay my bills. What people do want is a safety net of some sort. A plan that if they do loose their job, they'll know that the tax money they've been paying, will cover them. And you'll still have the option of buying a private plan if you feel like you want something better than what the government is providing you. Just as you have the option to invest in the stock market, put money in a 401K, IRA, etc, instead of waiting to get your Social Security money back.

[chauncy republicans]

VA benefits are paid for by US taxpayer dollars, not the individual service member's work. And most of the people making use of VA hospitals are no longer on active duty, so how are they government employees?
You know what I meant, your comparing VA benefits to handouts. Apples and Oranges.


So the guy who's been working at company x for 20 years, and gets a pink slip is a failure? I hope whoever your working for doesn't decide either downsize, restructure, or outsource work, as by your definition that would make anyone who lost their job because of it a failure.
I have two employers, and if either or both of them let me go I have a lot of savings to fall back on. I man up and take care of myself, if I don't have my **** in order I don't relax, simple as that.

[Dominique]

You know what I meant, your comparing VA benefits to handouts. Apples and Oranges.

No I'm not. The simple fact is that VA health benefits are tax payer funded, ust like any other government funded program, there is no difference, other than who the make the program available to.



I have two employers, and if either or both of them let me go I have a lot of savings to fall back on. I man up and take care of myself, if I don't have my **** in order I don't relax, simple as that.

Not to be funny, but you'd be amazed how fast medical bills can eat through your savings. It's not a matter of not having your act together, as I don't know of anyone who plans to get Cancer, HIV, etc.

[Mastermind]

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/339/3/167

Just in case you were wondering where the ideas came from that "Obama Care" really will decide to kill off Granny and Grand Pa...and also little baby sister and brother.

Have you ever heard of a thing called "Age-ism"? Well, the left is absolutely terrified the term will find it's way into the popular discourse.

From the New England Journal of Medicine, no less. These ideas have been circulating in Liberal think tanks for a very long time, folks...and these people are not kidding...they mean every fking word!

Ol' Doc Mengele could not have written these things any better!

[Geezah]

I guess, in Obama's eyes , Carousel would work.............
http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/images/1364827626193572.JPG?0.25409615200301483

Looks like the terminally ill are already being put to death in the UK.......:(

Sentenced to death on the NHS

Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors warn today.

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6127514/Sentenced-to-death-on-the-NHS.html)

[JKD]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/euthanasia.asp

The portion of bill in question (Section 1233) reads as follows:

Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term 'advance care planning consultation' means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:

(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.

(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizatons.

(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include ...

What the referenced portion of the bill actually describes is a modification to Section 1861 of the Social Security Act to add an "advance care planning consultation" to the list of services covered by Medicare. This provision would allow patients (if they so choose) to prepare for the day when they might be seriously ill and unable to make medical decisions for themselves by engaging in consultations with doctors to discuss the full range of end-of-life care options available to them, and to have the cost of such consultations covered by Medicare. These consultations might involve topics such as the development of living wills, directives to accept or refuse extreme life-saving measures, selection of hospice programs, appointment of relatives to make health care decisions on their behalf should they become incapacitated, etc.

These consultations are not mandatory, and they have nothing to do with encouraging or pushing "euthanasia" on seniors — they're about providing patients with information they can use to make informed choices about their future treatment preferences. In fact, as the Associated Press noted, the bill "would block funds for counseling that presents suicide or assisted suicide as an option":

Q: Does the health care legislation bill promote "mercy killing," or euthanasia?

A: No.

Q: Then what's all the fuss about?

A: A provision in the House bill would allow Medicare to pay doctors for voluntary counseling sessions that address end-of-life issues. The conversations between doctor and patient would include living wills, making a close relative or a trusted friend your health care proxy, learning about hospice as an option for the terminally ill, and information about pain medications for people suffering chronic discomfort.

Q: Does the bill advocate assisted suicide?

A: No. It would block funds for counseling that presents suicide or assisted suicide as an option.

The AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) issued a press release describing the article by Betsy McCaughey that prompted the "euthanasia" claims of the example cited above as "rife with gross — and even cruel — distortions":
Ms. McCaughey's criticism misinterprets legislation that would actually help empower individuals and doctors to make their own choices on end-of-life care.

This measure would allow Medicare to pay doctors for taking the time to talk with individuals about difficult end-of-life care decisions. It would help provide people with better information on the positives and negatives — both physical and financial — that different treatments can mean for them and their families.

Facing a terminal disease or debilitating accident, some people will choose to take every possible life-saving measure in the hopes that treatment or even a cure will allow them more time with their families. Others will decide that additional treatment would impose too great a burden — emotional, physical and otherwise — on themselves and their families, declining extraordinary measures and instead choosing care to manage their discomfort. Either way, it should be their choice.

This measure would not only help people make the best decisions for themselves, but also better ensure that their wishes are followed.

The Los Angeles Times described the erroneous "euthanasia" claims made about portion of the health care bill as "one of the most misleading, inflammatory claims made in the healthcare debate":

Q: Does the legislation include provisions to encourage senior citizens to commit suicide?

No. This has become one of the most misleading, inflammatory claims made in the healthcare debate, advanced repeatedly by conservative commentators such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity and Republican lawmakers working to stoke fears among seniors.

Rep. Virginia Foxx recently suggested that the Democratic healthcare bill would "put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government." There is no such provision.

The House bill would give seniors on Medicare the choice to sit down with a doctor for an "advance care planning consultation" every five years to discuss options should they become seriously ill or unable to make medical decisions. Topics could include the development of a living will and directives for care.

"These are important discussions everyone should have so they are fully informed and can make their wishes known," Dr. J. James Rohack, president of the American Medical Assn., said in a statement. "That's not controversial. It's plain old-fashioned patient-centered care."

On 13 August 2009, senators indicated that the advance care planning consultation provision was being dropped from consideration for the Senate version of the health care reform bill:

Key senators are excluding a provision on end-of-life care from health overhaul legislation after language in a House bill caused a furor.

Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa, top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a statement that the provision had been dropped from consideration because it could be misinterpreted or implemented incorrectly.

[commanding]

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/339/3/167

Just in case you were wondering where the ideas came from that "Obama Care" really will decide to kill off Granny and Grand Pa...and also little baby sister and brother.
!
MM, the guy who wrote that article you linked to is Rahm Emanual's brother, Ezekiel Emanual.........so they are definitely in bed with the Oblama admin.

[JKD]

MM, the guy who wrote that article you linked to is Rahm Emanual's brother, Ezekiel Emanual.........so they are definitely in bed with the Oblama admin.

He also thinks physician assisted suicide should remain illegal
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199703/euthanasia

[budgie]

40million is a well inflated number and you know it!

The 12million+ illegals in this Country can go #$@% themsleves, and those that choose not to get any type of healthcare, well, that is there choice, as to the rest of the Country they have spoken. Get over it!


Even one million would be too many. Imagine a million more healthy workers in the economy, feeding it instead of draining it. Instead the Right wingers here are more than happy to demand an F-22 for every school in America. Yeah it would be expensive to cover tens of million uninsured but would pay off in the long term. Why do you think the Euro is stronger?

I wouldn't worry though because it seems you'll get your wish. Instead of simply insuring the poor, the Obama admin has gone overboard and made the whole proposal so complicated and expensive that nobody will buy into it. Instead of trying to overhaul entrenched interests they should have just kept it simple. That and the fact that "conservatives" are so dead set against healthcare for those less fortunate they'll raise the specter of abortion, euthanasia, and somehow, the end of the 2nd amendment. Keep your AR loaded for the next townhall gig...