Question regarding the FBI and other agencies

[irishmike21]

I have a simple question is there a standard issue side arm issued to say an agent in the fbi or cia or is the agent given the choice what side arm to carry due to his preference? I always thought fbi standard issue was a glock 17 c is that just in the movies is it really that every agent can choice what firearm he wants to carry? thanks for your time later

[Piccolo]

I'm pretty sure for the FBI, standard issue is the Sig Sauer P228 for field agents. I have heard something about Glock's being used, possibly the 20, 10mm model, but I'm really not very keen on the subject.

[irishmike21]

does the agents have a choice in which sidearm they use or do they have to use the standard issue I'm just curious. Because it always seems like alot of police officers use different sidearms whatever there preference is

[FallenAngel]

The FBI did issue 10mm Glocks when it first came out. However, that was before the .40 S&W round was out, so I don't know if its STILL standard issue or not.

No clue on what the CIA issue is.

'Course, this is all subject to change. I think thats the ISSUED weapon, but I am pretty sure an agent could buy his own. I know in the LAPD they issue 9mm berretas, but an office can buy and carrying anything up to a .45.

[irishmike21]

i have been looking at various sites and in one it says the fbi with the new .40 round has started to give the newly introduced agents glock 22 and glock 23 as the standard issue am I right in saying that the glock 22 and glock 23 are now standard issue in the fbi currently and into the forseeable future

[Seraphim]

The Capitol Police use the Glock 22 and last I checked they were considering the Glock 23 for plainclothes CI's. They use 165 grain Speer Gold Dot JHP.

[irishmike21]

whose the capital police? Im talking about the FBI do they currenty issue the glock 22 and 23

[Seraphim]

You know the capital buildings in washington dc...they protect them.

[irishmike21]

o ok thanks
do u know if the fbi uses it however? or is the capital police a section of the fbi thanks alot

[irishmike21]

n e body know anything?

[USAF G]

The FBI is currently issuing the 40 s+w Glocks (in various sizes) to regualr agents. Swat team members get Springfield 1911s in 45 ACP, I think HRT does too (they finally got tired of trying to keep their Les Bear/Paras running). You may still see Smith and Wesson pistols in both 40 s+w and ten milimiter, as well as some Sigs and Berettas, as agents have the option of keeping those guns, if they already had them. My source is a real live FBI agent I spoke to. ;) G

Here's the question, does anyone know if their HRT and SWAT teams are considering switching from MP10/40s to ARs?

[irishmike21]

O so in other words the agents are allowed to carry either a sig beretta or glock whatever there preference is? they can choose what they want to carry?

[USAF G]

Only if you were already in the FBI and carrying one of those guns when they made the switch. New agents (except SWAT and HRT) all get Glocks in 40 s+w, no choice except what size. ;)

[irishmike21]

so wen did they make this switch from teh sig because alot of people have told me the standard issue is sigs ? thanks l8a

[USAF G]

I don't know when exactly. I do know they have been issuing the 40 s+w Glocks for at least two or three years. I hope that helps.G

[Cpl Stumps]

How do they score on the FBI Shotgun range during the Academy. I believe they use Double O and Slugs. Just wondering how they go about scoring and if anybody knows the test procedures i.e. time limits, distance etc.

[usa320]

I reckon the CIA uses any number of sidearms depending on the locale, as blending in with local population is imperitive for long missions. Its for the same reasons that they used AK's while in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[irishmike21]

so its settled the glock is the current standard issue of the fbi... n e body wanna challenge that?
or is he def right?

[SABER 2-3]

He is right Glock 40's and 1911's are the 2 current issue pistols. As for MP-5 10mm changing to AR family; already happening.

[USAF G]

That's good news. I like the terminal ballistics of a frangible 556 much better than even the potent ten millimeter. Making that switch seems to be the trend for entry teams. Discussion? :D

[irishmike21]

so the mp5 is being replaced m4's in the hrt and swat teams is that what you mean by ar's?

[SABER 2-3]

Roger that

[USAF G]

Yes, not every AR clone with a flat top and a heavy barrel is really an M4, so I just used a generic term. :)

[SABER 2-3]

Your right about the 5.56 being better suited for entry teams. In a bunch of semi-scientific experiments we have shown that it has better qualities (over-penatration) than 9mm and 40cal. Also we did not want to carry pistol calibered primary weapons (there called sub-guns because they are not up to speed)

[Chops]

Hey Saber

How do you work for?

rgds

Chops

[irishmike21]

ok everyone on this site is saying the glock .40 is the standard issue in the FBI however im on another site and at least two people have told me that the sigs are in fact standard issue who is right here im confused anyboyd have a link proving hte glock is in fact now standard issue over the sig p226 and p228

[irishmike21]

also if it is the glock is it intended to be the standard issue for the forseeable future do they plan on keeping it for a long time and if so how long do u think?

[irishmike21]

n e body know n e thing?

[FallenAngel]

here's an Idea....Email the FBI and ask them yourself.

www.fbi.gov ;)

[SABER 2-3]

Hey Saber

How do you work for?

rgds

Chops

U.S. Dept. of Defense

[Chops]

Care to be any more precise? Branch of service perhaps?

rgds

Chops

[Dominique]

o ok thanks
do u know if the fbi uses it however? or is the capital police a section of the fbi thanks alot

The U.S. Capitol Police are a seperate law enforcement agency. In addtion to protecting the grounds of the U.S. Capitol, they are also responsible for providing security to members of the US House and Senate anywhere they travel within the US.

[ODB000]

A quick call to the local FBI office revealed that the elite of the elite carry TT33s. :bash:

[irishmike21]

so who is the elite of the elite of the fbi?
or are you saying every agent carries that weapon which would absolutely be wrong seeing taht glock provides them .40 caliber weapons

[irishmike21]

i mean if im not mistaken that weapon dates all the way back to the 50's i doubt the fbi would issue such an outdated weapon although if you have the proof prove me wrong im not saying your incorrect quite yet ;)

[SABER 2-3]

Chops,
No longer assigned to a branch, but I came from the Army.

[irishmike21]

anyone want to coment on what that guy said on the TT33 pistol being issued to the elite of the elite of the fbi i find it hard to believe seeing its nearly 50 years old i believe and also does n e one know who the elite of th elite of the fbi is? thx l8a

[JKD]

....and also does n e one know who the elite of th elite of the fbi is? thx l8a

I'm assuming that would be the Hostage Rescue Team.

[USAF G]

The FBI's HRT carries 1911's made by Springfield, as do their field office SWAT teams. They use to carry Browning Hi-Powers which were customized by Wayne Novak. Then in the mid 90s, they switched to Paraordenance P-14s which were customized by Les Baer, however the magazines gave them constant problems. In the late 90s, the FBI ran a competition to see who would supply their new guns (the most rigorous test any handgun has had to pass, in order to get a Government contract), and the Springfield FBI model won out (the civilian version was later renamed the Professional model at the behest of the FBI). ;)

By the way, what is a TT-33? :| G

[irishmike21]

so this test was to see what the hrt teams would use and the springfield won the testing? our are you saying that the springfield is standard issue? if thats the case then why do sites say glock and sigs also are issued? thx l8a

[USAF G]

The test was actually to see what gun would replace those being used by all of the different SWAT teams, including the HRT. There was a desire to standardize the sidearm for FBI SWATs because, up till then, different teams had various, previously, issued handguns. I think there is a lot of confusion about what is issued, because the Bureau allowed agents to retain their old guns. ;) G

[Kodiak]

Hi Fellas, well from the data I have the official sidearm for every new agent since May 20, 1997 is the Glock 22 and 23 in .40S&W.
The guys from the DEA jumps on the idea and now they also have the very same gun.
The HRT and regional SWAT have Springfield Armory 1911 Bureau Model .45 ACP.
And as many tactical units they have M4 and weapons alike in their inventory.
Source; Glock Annual 98, 99, 00 and 01 (published by Harris Publications)
A

[Chops]

G is only talking about the HRT- not the rest of the Feebies. Agents carry the Glock .40s. Oh and G, a TT-33 is the venerable Soviet Tokarev... ;)

rgds

Chops

[irishmike21]

ok everything is cleared up thx alot

[Duke]

Your right about the 5.56 being better suited for entry teams. In a bunch of semi-scientific experiments we have shown that it has better qualities (over-penatration) than 9mm and 40cal. Also we did not want to carry pistol calibered primary weapons (there called sub-guns because they are not up to speed)
This post doesn't make sense. How can you account the 45s fps or ME versus the 223 at the magic 21?

[USAF G]

I think the issue isn't velocity, but kenitic energy transfer or hydrostatic shock. The slow (@900-100fps) heavy (200 grain aprox.) 45 ACP will have a greater likelyhood of overpenetrating (a body in motion tends to stay in motion, and the greater the mass the greater this tendency), where as the very light (60 grain aprox.) 223 traveling at a very high velocity (@2500 fps) will penetrate less, and spend it's significant energy inside the target. Of course, this won't work as well if we were talking FMJs since they would both overpenetrate, but SWAT and HRT these days use expanding ammo if not frangibles, and that is why the shift to 223 primary weapons for these teams. ;) G

[Duke]

I think the issue isn't velocity, but kenitic energy transfer or hydrostatic shock. The slow (@900-100fps) heavy (200 grain aprox.) 45 ACP will have a greater likelyhood of overpenetrating (a body in motion tends to stay in motion, and the greater the mass the greater this tendency), where as the very light (60 grain aprox.) 223 traveling at a very high velocity (@2500 fps) will penetrate less, and spend it's significant energy inside the target. Of course, this won't work as well if we were talking FMJs since they would both overpenetrate, but SWAT and HRT these days use expanding ammo if not frangibles, and that is why the shift to 223 primary weapons for these teams. ;) G
First, Saber alludes that muzzle velocity in his "UNIT" is an indicator of ballitics utility, hence sub. That is not a accurate statement. Also, USAF your statement is just as misleading. Force equals mass times acceleration.
Overpenetration issues in CQC is today seen as a nonissue. Today we want overcavitation at center mass.

[USAF G]

Yes, I think the 1911 is a great fighting tool for close quarters (I've got mine all tuned up and loaded with Magsafe 56 grain bullets that go 2100fps). It's my understanding, however, that you will get greater cavitation at center mass with a very light projectile going very fast. Roy Weatherby based his whole career on this theory(hydrostatic shock). This is especially true once you start using pre-fragmanted (frangible) bullets (which come apart and spend all of their energy inside the target). I may have been misled on this count, but if I was then so were most of the high end hostage rescue and SWAT guys cause they're all making this switch. Of course the fast/light vs slow/heavy bullet debate has been going on since before I was born, and I'm sure will continue for a long time. This is just my two cents on the topic. :)

[USAF G]

Well I certainly wasn't try to argue with you, Tane. I have a lot of respect for your opinion as well as Duke's, who I was trying to respond to, also. I'm just trying to keep the exchange of ideas flowing. :D G

[SABER 2-3]

Sorry for not being clear about my post...what I mean when I'm saying 5.56 is better for CQC is the fact that rounds that travel out of or miss soft targets will have a tendanacy not to travel through the walls of newer buildings. TANE, I agree 100% that the .45ACP is the best round available for this application.

[Royal]

anyone want to coment on what that guy said on the TT33 pistol being issued to the elite of the elite of the fbi i find it hard to believe seeing its nearly 50 years old i believe

The 'Pistolj Tipa Tokarev 33' strangely enough is so called 'cos it was introduced in 1933, which by my reckoning makes it 70 years old...

[Duke]

I'm curious, cite where HRT are going to the 5.56. A couple of years ago, the FBI in conjunction with HK developed the MP5/10. They're still in love with the 10mm.

[SABER 2-3]

True, but they also have the M4 in use.

[Chops]

Hey Saber

May I ask who do you work for at DoD? What was your former unit?

rgds

Chops

[SABER 2-3]

Not trying to sound like a secret ninja type but I can not tell you my current sections title. Units I have served w/ have all been SOCOM units to include the RGR RGT and an SFGA. Sorry.

[Chops]

Saber

Why does that not surprise me? ;)

So how long were you in the regs for? Final rank at discharge date?

Just intrigued...

rgds

O.D.C (tm Trigger)

[SABER 2-3]

8 years and after a little NJP speed-bump E5

[Seraphim]

Wally World eh
;)

/The Farm

Uh oh...theres black helos flying outside of my house right now.

[Chops]

Saber

And all in SOCOM units? Any time behind the fence?

rgds

Chops

[Duke]

With Saber and SOCOM are you saying you're DELTA.

[SABER 2-3]

The life of a In-flight rocket repair specialist is always full of glamour and intrigue and is always belayed by OPSEC. Whats behind the fence that is not in-front of the fence?

[Seraphim]

My frisbee

:roll:

[SABER 2-3]

What color is it? I know a guy who knows a guy who might know where to find it.

[Chops]

Saber, anyone who's US explain what "a little NJP speed-bump means"? And an E5 is a sergeant right?

rgds

Chops

[Duke]

Belayed?

[SABER 2-3]

1. Belay-as in the process of stopping your person, on rappel.
2.NJP Non Judicial Punishment, UCMJ

[Seraphim]

What color is it? I know a guy who knows a guy who might know where to find it.

Oh golly mister, that sure is nice and all but momma taught me not to go near strangers with offerings of lost toys.
;)

[Duke]

Belayed OPSEC--just never heard that one. Are you in the Navy Dept.?

[SABER 2-3]

Can I change my response to restricted by the man?

[Duke]

Sure, but for a solider your statement, albeit a Navy/USMC one, translated to "Secure by OPERATIONAL SECURITY". Just sounded very funny coming from a SOF member.

[Chops]

Saber

I admire your eight years service in SOCOM units. I admire your service with the Ranger Regiment. I admire your service in a Special Forces A Team. Hell, I guess I admire your current 'ninja' crew hi-jinks.

Wouldn't it have been terrible if, in early 2002, you had joined the US Army slated to join the 3rd Infantry Division and you had a knee injury and was binned before completing basic. I believe the injury is called a 'torn meniscus'.

Wouldn't that have been terrible?

rgds

Chops

[Duke]

Chops,
You're not saying this guys a fraud? This guy is in SFOD-D/DELTA/CAG. Just like in his callsign Saber (Squadron), he even gives his exact team 2-3.
Then again, he did screw up belay, claimed he did ballistic work when the last major ballistic work was on the 10mm back in 84, and etc etc etc.

[Duke]

I guess that's it. Watch out for more BS under a new name or a pre-existing one.

[Chops]

Duke

Those high speed-low drag ninja crew DoD SMUs are just the DBX. Check out a few of their 'kills'....

http://www.bushmaster73.com/dedbunnies.html

But maybe we should be talking to these guys?

http://home.att.net/~lzzzbolt/Wall.htm

rgds folks, sleep well

Ol' Dirty Chops

[SABER 2-3]

Bush is a good friend of mine who should be fighting right now (yes, his web site is under my profile). I do not claim to be a member of some ultra-high speed commando team; I just dont know any of you from adam.

[Duke]

Wait a FUKKING minute, Elmer Fudd. As a kid I shot at birds and sometimes used frogs as bait, but this **** is pure nonsense! And Saber you're "of age". How can you justify shooting wabbits? If your parents have a garden, then buy some lettuce and place away from the garden. Then after killing these bunnies, you have the lunacy to take sadistic pictures. Very sad.

[SABER 2-3]

DUKE,
You seem to know a whole lotta doctrin but very little real world, try using some of your smarts on your own questions.

[Chops]

"I do not claim to be a member of some ultra-high speed commando team" So just a high speed commando team then ;) ? Or how else do you classify your "DoD special mission unit"? That "prefers the M4"?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=26974&highlight=dod#26974

Bearing in mind that, according to your own posts; "I'm not on one of the Target Aquision Teams but I am in control of them while my team is on-target and the thing that I expect ouy of those talented triggermen is an On-time, On-target, Cold bore, One shot Kill. Every time."

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28757&highlight=sniper+team#28757

Sounds pretty damned high speed to me, ninja boy...

rgds

Chops

[Bushmaster]

Wait a FUKKING minute, Elmer Fudd. As a kid I shot at birds and sometimes used frogs as bait, but this **** is pure nonsense! And Saber you're "of age". How can you justify shooting wabbits? If your parents have a garden, then buy some lettuce and place away from the garden. Then after killing these bunnies, you have the lunacy to take sadistic pictures. Very sad.

You obviously can't read, SABER said it wasn't his site, it's MY site. Yes I kill rabbits, putting "some lettuce" out isn't going to stop them from eating the yard. When you live in the middle of the desert the rabbits eat anything and everything. SABER doesn't live in the desert, I do, he doesn't have the same vermin problems that we deal with that I do in BFE. Once you have to vaccum the yard once you'd want them dead as well. They are only there to spread disease, destory your yard, and annoy the hell out of you. When I kill them I leave them for the buzzards and the cyotes to eat, they just have a little less of a chase in order to eat that way :P. I'm sorry that I offened your bleeding heart by taking pics of the dead rabbits, but so be it, I could care less :P

[SABER 2-3]

Chops,
I stated: I was not a member of an Ultra High Speed Commando Team. Lets read into that. I am not a member of SFOD-D or DEV-GRU, this could be very obvious to you just by the mere fact that I have a final grade at discharge (as per your request) if you had any real knowledge of the DoD. Yes, I am a member (a TL to be more accurate) of a operational DoD special missions unit and actually we are some what high speed; even w/o the commando mission profile. The reason for not giving you exact details is because I would like to keep my current security clearence. You are most likely a know it all non-vet, a intell-type (poss. Terror ties) or hell you might even be a DIS agent just working the net. So ninja boy care to tell us who have you served with, what was your last rank, who are you w/ now, where do you live whats your address, etc...

[Chops]

Saber

Well, you almost bagged me- I'm simply a table dancing unintel type, albeit a high speed but extremely low drag one, with poss terror ties. I've danced in a few barracks around the place in my time, Enoggera and Holsworthy spring to mind, normally for enthusiastic junior NCOs but that was a few years ago mind. Never made a whole lotta moolah out of it either.

Have graced a few glamour spots on my infrequent world tours, making guest appearances in some of the lovelier exotic locales in SE Asia and Europe mainly. These days though I'm a little too old and hairy to draw the crowds I used to.

My address and current occupation? Always need to see the money up front you big bad ninja...

rgds

Chop Chop

[JiJoMacLE45]

I'll second that Chops, you are a little too old and a little too hairy, but you do give it a full 110 out on the stage and that's all I care about.

Hey Saber, duck, the black helos are right outside the window.

[SABER 2-3]

Chops,
If you are what you say you are my apologies and deepest respect. It was never my intention to start a full on, raging, firefight.
I will watch what I type in the future so as not to invite another ambush; but the only way to counter a ambush (for those of us in the kill zone) is to turn and charge the line.

[SABER 2-3]

Hey Saber, duck, the black helos are right outside the window.[/quote]

Everyones gotta get to work some how. I guess you could call it "high speed-low drag-nowhere near-cost effective car-pooling for ninjas"

[Bushmaster]

I'm could care less about the black helos, I'm more worried about that damn cable van across the street that never seems to leave http://bushmaster.ipbhost.com/html/emoticons/huh.gif

[BiZ]

I'm still worried if UCT_Sinasta is going to get his frisbee back anytime soon...

As for good ol uncle Chop Chop.... love your work mate.


I've danced in a few barracks around the place in my time, Enoggera and Holsworthy spring to mind, normally for enthusiastic junior NCOs but that was a few years ago mind. Never made a whole lotta moolah out of it either.

:D

[Shardik]

Hi Fellas, well from the data I have the official sidearm for every new agent since May 20, 1997 is the Glock 22 and 23 in .40S&W.
The guys from the DEA jumps on the idea and now they also have the very same gun.
The HRT and regional SWAT have Springfield Armory 1911 Bureau Model .45 ACP.
And as many tactical units they have M4 and weapons alike in their inventory.
Source; Glock Annual 98, 99, 00 and 01 (published by Harris Publications)
A

Basically, all DoJ agencies issue the Glock 22 (.40 cal). If you have a weapon previously issued (and it is still authorized) you may carry it instead. This is why many agents still carry Sigs (they were issued as recently as 1995). Back-up or second guns also fall into this category. This means no .380 semi-autos, .22 long derringers, etc... FWIW: DEA has a very strict weapons testing program. That is why they are limited to only three weapons manufacturers; Glock, Sig and Barretta.

[NcDeuce]

Black helos? Are you referring to the Night Stalker choppers? If so, they aren't black.

[NcDeuce]

No one...no one who is in SFOD-Delta will admit to it.

[Shardik]

No one...no one who is in SFOD-Delta will admit to it. One of my friends who is now retired, we all thought he was working for FedEx or some type of company like that. Turns out about 6 years after he retired, he told us he was in Delta. However, no active-duty member of the dreaded D will come out and say I'm Delta.

I have no evidence of it but I suspect there would be severe repercussions for any member of Wally World who admitted same. Ft. Bragg has any number of Military Counter Intel (97B) types. The danger some random chick you meet in a bar is actually CI and will get your ass kicked out - that would keep my lips zipped shut.

[Shardik]

Black helos? Are you referring to the Night Stalker choppers? If so, they aren't black.

True story (no, honest...) back in the late 80's at Ft. Bragg, the TF160th boys were trying to get authorization to wear black flight suits. Their rational was the black would not reflect the illumination off the instruments' dials. Of course no one mentioned that if you were close enough to see the glow you might have first noticed the large helicopter with spinning rotors!

[warchild1/27scout]

i feel better now. i thought i was the only one who saw black helos. and another thing i saw some homeless guy with that damn frisbee the other day. is that post far enough out to fit in this thread. :cantbeli:

[Vance]

I'm more confused than Hillary Clinton right now

[NcDeuce]

Yes, the part about trying to obtain all-black flight suits was considered.

It is extremely difficult to spot these SOAR birds in the dark. By the time you will be able to see them, it is too late.

Trust me, they are not black. They basically wear the same flight suits as the regs, they just have velcro patches to make it convenient to scrap their name/unit patches. Also, they get to wear black flight vests instead of the reg's green ones. Long hair, sideburns, goatees, all that good stuff.

[Seraphim]

i feel better now. i thought i was the only one who saw black helos. and another thing i saw some homeless guy with that damn frisbee the other day. is that post far enough out to fit in this thread. :cantbeli:

LoL, you should have chased him down, theres a 25million dollar reward for that frisbee. Although I think you might have a better chance of finding saddam than my frisbee again.

[SABER 2-3]

Is that up front, lump-sum, tax-free money or is it the Govt. version? As far as there not being any black helicopters in Special Operations Aviation How "blackish" does something need to be before it is officially called black.

[Seraphim]

Is that up front, lump-sum, tax-free money or is it the Govt. version? As far as there not being any black helicopters in Special Operations Aviation How "blackish" does something need to be before it is officially called black.

The helos would have big white letters that says BLACK on it. p-)