Polish TV journalist fired because of osetia

[Holycrusader]

One of the most known TV journalist fired because he try to said "the truth about the war in S. Ossetia"

Interesting story about how media works
Link in russian
http://www.izvestia.ru/world/article3131420/
link in polish
http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,6891542,Wiktor_Bater____Padlem_ofiara_cenzury.html?utm_source=RSS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=4809280

[sepheronx]

And what was the truth?

[Holycrusader]

And what was the truth?

I do not know, I only post the news about how one journalist try to fight with ine sided propaganda and he lost...

Funny thing is that Wiktor Bater was once a critic of Russians. Even in Beslan he suspect Russian gov conspiracy and now he speak with Izwiestia about cenzorship in polish TV.

[User_Name]

I do not know, I only post the news about how one journalist try to fight with ine sided propaganda and he lost...

Funny thing is that Wiktor Bater was once a critic of Russians. Even in Beslan he suspect Russian conspiracy and now he speak with Izwiestia about cenzorship in polish TV.
[RussiAWEAAAKKK!1!]Traitor:bash:[/RussiAWEAAAKKK!1!]

[lightfire]

Funny thing is that Wiktor Bater was once a critic of Russians. Even in Beslan he suspect Russian conspiracy and now he speak with Izwiestia about cenzorship in polish TV.

He speaks Russian very well, and surprise, he was embedded with Russian troops, and surprise, he repeats old stories - barbaric Georgians came to kill women and babies, destroyed all houses.

Doubt he was fired over his opinion though, probably tried to advertise his story too much, got into conflict with the bosses and now the crybaby whines. No worries, he'll find a job in some Russian TV channel.

[Holycrusader]

He speaks Russian very well, and surprise, he was embedded with Russian troops, and surprise, he repeats old stories - barbaric Georgians came to kill women and babies, destroyed all houses.

Doubt he was fired over his opinion though, probably tried to advertise his story too much, got into conflict with the bosses and now the crybaby whines. No worries, he'll find a job in some Russian TV channel.


Just read article then return here...

[User_Name]

He speaks Russian very well, and surprise, he was embedded with Russian troops, and surprise, he repeats old stories - barbaric Georgians came to kill women and babies, destroyed all houses.

Doubt he was fired over his opinion though, probably tried to advertise his story too much, got into conflict with the bosses and now the crybaby whines. No worries, he'll find a job in some Russian TV channel.

I see, some guys from "small but free" crew are here with typical respondrofl

[Pareto]

Dont worry about it,i'm sure he was paid very good by gazprome..

[Pareto]

Example of Gazprome paid "journalism"!


Pensioners burned alive in a church and a baby stabbed to death - just some of the horrific stories from Georgia

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043639/Pensioners-burned-alive-church-baby-stabbed-death--just-horrific-stories-Georgia.html#ixzz0NCRl3qQ0 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043639/Pensioners-burned-alive-church-baby-stabbed-death--just-horrific-stories-Georgia.html#ixzz0NCRl3qQ0)

[Holycrusader]

Example of Gazprome paid "journalism"!


Pensioners burned alive in a church and a baby stabbed to death - just some of the horrific stories from Georgia

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043639/Pensioners-burned-alive-church-baby-stabbed-death--just-horrific-stories-Georgia.html#ixzz0NCRl3qQ0 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043639/Pensioners-burned-alive-church-baby-stabbed-death--just-horrific-stories-Georgia.html#ixzz0NCRl3qQ0)

Somebody is offtopic here...

[Mango Madness]

Dont worry about it,i'm sure he was paid very good by gazprome..


Example of Gazprome paid "journalism"!


Pensioners burned alive in a church and a baby stabbed to death - just some of the horrific stories from Georgia

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043639/Pensioners-burned-alive-church-baby-stabbed-death--just-horrific-stories-Georgia.html#ixzz0NCRl3qQ0 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043639/Pensioners-burned-alive-church-baby-stabbed-death--just-horrific-stories-Georgia.html#ixzz0NCRl3qQ0)

Do you have any proof to back up your continuous assertions that these journalists were "paid by Gazprom"?

[Difool]

Welcome to the west, Poland, where the freedom of speach is held high.

[Stormz_STA]

Welcome to the west, Poland, where the freedom of speach is held high.

In contrary to most russian media outlets Poland knows what freedom of speech is.

Ps. x2 what Wojtop said in the following post.

[Wojtop]

He was fired from a state owned TV which is a bit russian style, meaning it has an obvious pro-govt agenda. There are also 20 or so private-owned TV channels which simply love to kick president and prime minister on the balls so no worries about freedom of speach in Poland - but thanks for caring.
p.s. note that according to Polish law a journalist is obliged to follow the political agenda of the editor/owner of the media outlet. The purpose of this law is to assure pluralism of media. Being a journalist Bater had to know about it, why is he whinning?

[Switek]

Welcome to the west, Poland, where the freedom of speach is held high.

If you reffer state owned and run in socialist style Polish public TV you're right!

rofl

[Xaito]

he was embedded with Russian troops, and surprise, he repeats old stories

So unlike most journalists who write **** about the war, innocent victim Georgia and evil Russian horde he was there and has seen things for himself?
I get the impression some Journalists were just sitting around, having a good time in Tbilissi while waiting for Georgia's propaganda bureau to write an article for them.

[Holycrusader]

In contrary to most russian media outlets Poland knows what freedom of speech is.

Ps. x2 what Wojtop said in the following post.

Actually those articles proves that there is no difference, beetwen Russian state owned media and ours. Journalist in both of them will not work too long if they think for themselvs.

Funny thiing is that Bater was very biased and antirussian when he start of his work. Last war was personal for him and thats why he cannot stand official propaganda.

Ps. Russians too have antigov outlets ie "Novaya Gazeta". radio "echo Moskvy" etc...

[Difool]

p.s. note that according to Polish law a journalist is obliged to follow the political agenda of the editor/owner of the media outlet. The purpose of this law is to assure pluralism of media. Being a journalist Bater had to know about it, why is he whinning?
Yes, the diversity of media is guaranteed, but not the diversity of different opinions. Most big media companies (and state owned) in one country say more or less the same.
That's why you always should take a look an a broad variety of news from all over the world. (or visit MP.net:)).
If I want to know something more on a news topic I visit news sites from about 3 to 6 different countries.
But back to the topic: A journalist is getting fired because of his contary view on things is nothing abnormal to western countries either. It's a shame but it's like that.

[Flamming_Python]

Actually those articles proves that there is no difference, beetwen Russian state owned media and ours. Journalist in both of them will not work too long if they think for themselvs.

Funny thiing is that Bater was very biased and antirussian when he start of his work. Last war was personal for him and thats why he cannot stand official propaganda.

Ps. Russians too have antigov outlets ie "Novaya Gazeta". radio "echo Moskvy" etc...

But of course, despite the similarities between Poland and Russia in this regard and others; one is "free" and the other is "authoritarian" :)

But what can you do; to some the only people who write the 'truth' about Russia are the ones who get shot, if it's anyone else - well he must be paid by the Kremlin.

[Wojtop]

Yeah, but the difference is that in Russia most of media is owned by state or by state-controlled companies and resembles TVP, while in Poland ownership is mostly private, isn't it like that?

On a side note - at the beginning of Iraq conflict I've been living in France where people used to debate Iraq 24h per day. I've been reading 4 media outlets daily - Le Monde, CNN, GW and some Russian news site.
Americans were like "whoho! we're winning the war".
Frech were like "Thousands of civilian casualties, war no good at all"
Poles were like "Saddam is down, long live the freedom!"
Russians were like "Oppresive americans are trying to steal oil".

So, each country has the agenda regardless of how well developed free speach is. It's not necessarily politics-driven, it's also about how people feel towards some event and its participants in the country. To be honest you can't say that rulers of Russia is a great, peace and freedom loving bunch of guys in Polish media and get away with that, noone will believe and people will consider you a freak cause the stereotype learned in centuries is that they are cunning, greedy and merciless bastards.

[Holycrusader]

But of course, despite the similarities between Poland and Russia in this regard and others; one is "free" and the other is "authoritarian" :)

True, true...

The guys which fired Bater, just know better.
It must be great to work as a boss in such company. Journalist will be calling you from some strange places and you will have a power to tell them what they see or what they do not see on the place...

[Holycrusader]

Yeah, but the difference is that in Russia most of media is owned by state or by state-controlled companies and resembles TVP, while in Poland ownership is mostly private, isn't it like that?

On a side note - at the beginning of Iraq conflict I've been living in France where people used to debate Iraq 24h per day. I've been reading 4 media outlets daily - Le Monde, CNN, GW and some Russian news site.
Americans were like "whoho! we're winning the war".
Frech were like "Thousands of civilian casualties, war no good at all"
Poles were like "Saddam is down, long live the freedom!"
Russians were like "Oppresive americans are trying to steal oil".

So, each country has the agenda regardless of how well developed free speach is. It's not necessarily politics-driven, it's also about how people feel towards some event and its participants in the country. To be honest you can't say that rulers of Russia is a great, peace and freedom loving bunch of guys in Polish media and get away with that, noone will believe and people will consider you a freak cause the stereotype learned in centuries is that they are cunning, greedy and merciless bastards.

Opinions should always go second after the facts...
in 5-day war TVP coverage opinions were presented as a facts. That is a problem...

[Difool]

Opinions should always go second after the facts...
in 5-day war TVP coverage opinions were presented as a facts. That is a problem...
And than you got pictures. They're influencing people more than words. You can manipulate pictures by just shooting from the right angle. You can manipulate facts and statistics by just not giving every single information. And that's how it works.
Noone except professionals won't bother to read a book of facts on the bird flu for example, and the journalists neither. So they copy. That's much easier.

[Switek]

One of the most known TV journalist fired because he try to said "the truth about the war in S. Ossetia"

Interesting story about how media works
Link in russian
http://www.izvestia.ru/world/article3131420/
link in polish
http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,6891542,Wiktor_Bater____Padlem_ofiara_cenzury.html?utm_source=RSS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=4809280


Interesting how, no doubt, frustrated journalist by making a simple lie change the whole context and mislead...

In Izviestya it sounds as follow:


К тому же надо учесть: тогдашнее руководство информационных программ TVP напрямую подчинялось президентскому дворцу. А наш президент Лех Качиньский - друг Саакашвили.

In Gazeta Wyborcza it was interpreted (not direct translation) as follow:


TVP jest podporządkowana prezydentowi Lechowi Kaczyńskiemu, a on z kolei jest przyjacielem Saakaszwilego.

The main sense in English is following:


Managing staff of news TVP program is subordinated to (controlled by) president palace and what as is commonly known president Lech Kaczynski is Saakashvili's friend

Everyone who knows Polish law system and division of state institutions and constitutional powers given do different states agenda and actual (and those in august 2008) situation of TVP is aware that Mr Bater lies.

There were, in fact informal liaisons between president staff and former TVP managers but not in a sense described by Mr Bater.

But it seems that you can lie to be better understand by Russian readers.

[Holycrusader]

Bater try to said something really simple, according to Switek he lied...
Switek you are wrong. President men Andrzej Urbański work as a boss of TVP to the end of 2008... That mean that Kaczynski control de facto TVP in 2008.

[Wachmistrz]

And what was the truth?

one is interesting: his wife is Abkhasian. :-D

[Holycrusader]

one is interesting: his wife is Abkhasian. :-D

This do not affect his credibility when he was heavy critics of Russian politics in Kavkaz. So why it is importent now?

[dies irae]

one is interesting: his wife is Abkhasian. :-D
Indeed. And this is a major reason why he was delegate of caukazian topic. No big deal.

[widi243]

This do not affect his credibility when he was heavy critics of Russian politics in Kavkaz. So why it is importent now?

Really ?????? I've doubt on it.
I think it's some personal revenge cause they fired him.
And there is nothing to compare between Russian and Polish TV' it's to different worlds. It's two different law systems and influence of Polish President is very indirect. His political option placed there theirs people when they was in power but i'dont think that it was like Bater said.
And I'm just wonder if he wasn't payd by Russian inteligence.
Cause his story is identical with what Russian authorities said and
they was'nt verry credible source at that moment.

[Holycrusader]

Really ?????? I've doubt on it.
I think it's some personal revenge cause they fired him.
And there is nothing to compare between Russian and Polish TV' it's to different worlds. It's two different law systems and influence of Polish President is very indirect. His political option placed there theirs people when they was in power but i'dont think that it was like Bater said.
And I'm just wonder if he wasn't payd by Russian inteligence.
Cause his story is identical with what Russian authorities said and
they was'nt verry credible source at that moment.


Off course! Its a conspiracy of evil KGB...

[Flamming_Python]

To be honest; it's probably not beyond the realm of possibility to consider that he was paid by Russian organsations. The question is, why do some people here automatically assume that this is so? Because he is saying something that people don't want to hear? If he were to give a different opinion instead, then why would he be considered any more credible than he is now?

Mark Ames had similar things to say about the conflict at its start; and his articles exposed the inner workings of Western Press organizations during the reporting of that war as the extremely undemocratic, corporate structures that they are; where journalists are expected to follow strict orders as to what to report and where to report it from. Mark Ames himself is also often a fierce critic of the Russian government; something that got him and his paper into trouble before. Perhaps he was paid by the Kremlin too?

[dies irae]

Off course! Its a conspiracy of evil KGB...
And you know it isn't? Ohh I forgot that some people are so russian propaganda belivers that they write BS for free. No offence.

[Holycrusader]

And you know it isn't? Ohh I forgot that some people are so russian propaganda belivers that they write BS for free. No offence.


Wiktor Bater is one of them?

LOL

[Flamming_Python]

And you know it isn't? Ohh I forgot that some people are so russian propaganda belivers that they write BS for free. No offence.

And do you know that it is?

[widi243]

To be honest; it's probably not beyond the realm of possibility to consider that he was paid by Russian organsations. The question is, why do some people here automatically assume that this is so? Because he is saying something that people don't want to hear? If he were to give a different opinion instead, then why would he be considered any more credible than he is now?

So why he tellling it now, not then ?? I've think that somne personal games and I don't belive him at all. He claims that he have films what confirmed his story. I want to see it. And don't tell me that he can't publicate it because he have varios options to do it.

[Flamming_Python]

So why he tellling it now, not then ?? I've think that somne personal games and I don't belive him at all. He claims that he have films what confirmed his story. I want to see it. And don't tell me that he can't publicate it because he have varios options to do it.

If he told it then are you sure that you would have believed him and not just made up another excuse to yourself to not believe him?

[Frutzel]

And you know it isn't? Ohh I forgot that some people are so russian propaganda belivers that they write BS for free. No offence.

Well that was beyond retarded. So I could claim the most idiotic things and because you can't prove it it makes them true? Stop making an idiot of yourself.

[Holycrusader]

So why he tellling it now, not then ?? I've think that somne personal games and I don't belive him at all. He claims that he have films what confirmed his story. I want to see it. And don't tell me that he can't publicate it because he have varios options to do it.

http://media.izvestia.ru/foreign/article1468/

[Flamming_Python]

Here are the relevant articles by Mark Ames. This is the man whose newspaper got into serious trouble with the Russian authorities because of its sharp anti-government slant:

Georgian War: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080818/ames
Western reporting of Georgian war: http://exiledonline.com/how-to-screw-up-a-war-story-the-new-york-times-at-work/
http://exiledonline.com/the-cnn-effect-georgia-schools-russia-in-information-warfare/ (http://exiledonline.com/how-to-screw-up-a-war-story-the-new-york-times-at-work/)

[Holycrusader]

To be honest; it's probably not beyond the realm of possibility to consider that he was paid by Russian organsations. The question is, why do some people here automatically assume that this is so? Because he is saying something that people don't want to hear? If he were to give a different opinion instead, then why would he be considered any more credible than he is now?

Mark Ames had similar things to say about the conflict at its start; and his articles exposed the inner workings of Western Press organizations during the reporting of that war as the extremely undemocratic, corporate structures that they are; where journalists are expected to follow strict orders as to what to report and where to report it from. Mark Ames himself is also often a fierce critic of the Russian government; something that got him and his paper into trouble before. Perhaps he was paid by the Kremlin too?

I read Mark Ames stuff. Corporate journalism is really dangerous tool...
But do not expect that Mark Ames opinion from that war will be printed in big Polish newspapers :D

[Flamming_Python]

I read Mark Ames stuff. Corporate journalism is really dangerous tool...
But do not expect that Mark Ames opinion from that war will be printed in big Polish newspapers :D

I brought him up because I noticed the similarity between his and Bater's writings/views regarding the Georgian war and the Western/Polish media's reporting of that conflict.

And in fact as journalists they have apparently many similarities; both hail from countries with strong anti-Russian establishments and public opinion (America and Poland respectively), both are no friends of the Russian government and regularly attack it in their writings. But according to people here, at least one of them is paid by the Kremlin.

[Xaito]

I think it's some personal revenge cause they fired him.

and why do you think did they fire him?

reminds me of the incident when 12 year old girl started telling live on Fox that the Russians were the good guys in the conflict -> instant commercial break



Here are the relevant articles by Mark Ames. This is the man whose newspaper got into serious trouble with the Russian authorities because of its sharp anti-government slant:

well that's kinda misleading.
His sponsors decided to stop fund him because they were afraid they might get into trouble - but as far as I know it was their own initiative and nobody actually did get any trouble with authorities, no?

[Switek]

Bater try to said something really simple, according to Switek he lied...
Switek you are wrong. President men Andrzej Urbański work as a boss of TVP to the end of 2008... That mean that Kaczynski control de facto TVP in 2008.


Urbański and Kaczyński bros were in conflict then... short memory I guess.

[Holycrusader]

Urbański and Kaczyński bros were in conflict then... short memory I guess.

I don't think so... Urbański was in conflict with some part of PIS not with president.
in conflict Farfał vs Urabanski Kaczynski support Urbanski...

[Red Bar0n]

I am not going to say that Russia is innocent but Poland became such a joke, such a puppet state, it's like Georgia and Ukraine, they go against Russia on everything regardless of them being right or wrong.

Now, not only they are pissing Russia off but pissing China off as well, what was the point in giving Dalai Lama citizenship, what's the point in this theatrics...

[widi243]

http://media.izvestia.ru/foreign/article1468/

Nice film show realation one side of the conflict. Unfortunatly Im not speaking russin and I didn't understand what they said.

[widi243]

I am not going to say that Russia is innocent but Poland became such a joke, such a puppet state, it's like Georgia and Ukraine, they go against Russia on everything regardless of them being right or wrong.

Now, not only they are pissing Russia off but pissing China off as well, what was the point in giving Dalai Lama citizenship, what's the point in this theatrics...

Poland was pupet state during cold war living with Russian gun over our heads and Russian tanks on our soil. That was pupet state. Now finaly we are free and w can talk what we are thinking. And I have learned one about this time. Don't trust Russian. Specialy Russian authorities.

[jaybe]

Poland will be pupet state living with American gun over our heads and American rockets on our soil.

fixed for you

[Red Bar0n]

Now finaly we are free and w can talk what we are thinking.

I am sorry but you're not free and most likely you will never be, from one side you have U.S. and from other Russia, i honestly don't see how you can go against Russia while you get all of your natural resources from them.

By the way, your hate towards Russia clouding your judgment, you're being used by the U.S. just like you were being used by the Soviet Union, just like it was with Ukraine and Georgia, they will use you then throw you away like a condom.

[Wojtop]

I am not going to say that Russia is innocent but Poland became such a joke, such a puppet state, it's like Georgia and Ukraine, they go against Russia on everything regardless of them being right or wrong.

Now, not only they are pissing Russia off but pissing China off as well, what was the point in giving Dalai Lama citizenship, what's the point in this theatrics...

Mate, pissing people off on the internet and for no reason, like you do is a sign of being a looser. Pissing powerful people or governments because you stand behind your convictions is something entirely different. So, if you have nothing to say on the topic please keep your mouth shut. And USA is not Poland's neighbour and will never be.

[Drez]

Oh my God! Someone suddenly realized there is no independent media :) Every country or alliance has different point of view for the same news. Even the history of the world is different for different nations to support their needs.

Don't be so naive. Never trust only one source, always compare a few different ones.

[widi243]

I am sorry but you're not free and most likely you will never be, from one side you have U.S. and from other Russia, i honestly don't see how you can go against Russia while you get all of your natural resources from them.

Becausre our intrest are contradictory to Russian. We donn't want something like Pimped Soviet Union 2.0, but I'm afraid that's the way Russia is going right now. And as I remember during Cold War S.U sell natural recources to " The Evil West".

[Flamming_Python]

Guys lets please stop the ****-fests before this topic becomes locked, and lets get back on subject.

[Mrufka]

one is interesting: his wife is Abkhasian. :-D
And this is not first TV station which finished co-operation with him.

[Red Bar0n]

Mate, pissing people off on the internet and for no reason, like you do is a sign of being a looser.

So if anyone says anything negative against Poland that pisses you off means they are losers? Should i be 'fired' from this website just like that reporter was fired from the newspaper because he said something you and Polish government didn't like?
Poland's freedom of speech at it's best...

[Switek]

....something you and Polish government didn't like?
Poland's freedom of speech at it's best...

It had nothing to do with Polish government but TVP ... If you knew Poland better may by you's be a little aware that current managing staff is from opposition to current Polish government... like Polish president himself

[Wojtop]

No, you misunderstood me. You did not refer to the topic of this thread in your first post in any way. You did not refer to Polish/Russian/Western media, freedom of speach, media bias, war in Ossetia coverage etc. You write offensive, unsourced BS claims about Poland like "a puppet", "a joke". This is called trolling in my book and is not welcomed on this forum as far as I know.

[Switek]

I am sorry but you're not free and most likely you will never be, from one side you have U.S. and from other Russia, i honestly don't see how you can go against Russia while you get all of your natural resources from them.


roflroflroflroflroflroflroflrofl



Quoted for its eternal stupidity... you made my day kid! :D

[shadowsrider]

So if anyone says anything negative against Poland that pisses you off means they are losers? Should i be 'fired' from this website just like that reporter was fired from the newspaper because he said something you and Polish government didn't like?
Poland's freedom of speech at it's best...

I can partially agree with your thesis of "puppet" state.
Only in matter of TV: international conflicts are extremally complex especially Caucasus or Iraq and there is no white-black there. For official TV: yes, this is black and white: good Georgians, evil Russians.

As for American domination I cannot agree. Simply our government would love to have some US Corps here but US apparently ignores Poland.
I am waiting for a government that will finally admit that and stop believing in American protection and special relationships which are in fact not existing. Poles put lots of effort and money into this alliance sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. At least our army dramatically upgraded its quality thanks to participation in those operations but thats all.
When to measure what our allies done for our country the best Polish ally is Germany and we should follow this path. The real actions came from this country: offering an armoured brigade of Leopards for 1/4 of market price and a plenty of MiGs-29 for free.
US offered us F-16s Block52 which are of course excellent planes but for excellent money :)

[User_Name]

When to measure what our allies done for our country the best Polish ally is Germany and we should follow this path. The real actions came from this country: offering an armoured brigade of Leopards for 1/4 of market price and a plenty of MiGs-29 for free.
And there are still much b_itching about Germany in polish media... And if we add Russia to that there is automaticly a "Molotov-Ribbentrop" outcry:cantbeli:

[shadowsrider]

Ok we received 2 Oliver Hazard Perrys for free (plus putting some money into their modernization)

[Russianlynxy]

When to measure what our allies done for our country the best Polish ally is Germany and we should follow this path. The real actions came from this country: offering an armoured brigade of Leopards for 1/4 of market price and a plenty of MiGs-29 for free.

Don't forget that the version of the Mig 29 that East Germany operated is one of the earliest, it's the Mig 29A and is heavily outdated by today's standards. So it is not surprise they would give it away instead of scrapping it, to a willing NATO allience member.

As far as "best ally" goes, I'm not sure... Germany still has some grudges and disputes about Western Poland that the USSR gave to Poland after WWII, this includes Danzig/Gdansk.

Anyways, politics aside, I'm sure Georgia/Ossetia/Russia in general opinions are not shared by the majority of Polish people. I've met many throughout my lifetime and go there at least once a year for work(business related). Some of the people I know for a while so discussions are not always work-related, most of the people I know are very positive and non-Russophobic. I think media makes it seem more extreme than it actually is. I can speak for Ukraine since I'm from there and work there alot to this day, their nationalist/chauvinist media caters to a very small layer of listeners, from what I saw it's a similar situation in Poland. I may be wrong, however.

[shadowsrider]

Don't forget that the version of the Mig 29 that East Germany operated is one of the earliest, it's the Mig 29A and is heavily outdated by today's standards. So it is not surprise they would give it away instead of scrapping it, to a willing NATO allience member.

As far as "best ally" goes, I'm not sure... Germany still has some grudges and disputes about Western Poland that the USSR gave to Poland after WWII, this includes Danzig/Gdansk.

Anyways, politics aside, I'm sure Georgia/Ossetia/Russia in general opinions are not shared by the majority of Polish people. I've met many throughout my lifetime and go there at least once a year for work(business related). Some of the people I know for a while so discussions are not always work-related, most of the people I know are very positive and non-Russophobic. I think media makes it seem more extreme than it actually is. I can speak for Ukraine since I'm from there and work there alot to this day, their nationalist/chauvinist media caters to a very small layer of listeners, from what I saw it's a similar situation in Poland. I may be wrong, however.

So you're Ukraininan and Russian patriot?
Since hundreds of years on private level Poles and Russians had good relationships. Always much worse on government level.
For me this kind of relationship is completly outdated: Russia has such big problems for example with Far East that hopefully no conflict in Europe will happen again.

As for MiGs 29a, yes but anyway it was great support for our weak at the moment air force.
I may be somehow isolated in my opinion but simply it was real measurment of real actions.
And I forgot other ally: Norway, 5 Kobben submarines for free.

[Russianlynxy]

So you're Ukraininan and Russian patriot?


I'm Russo-Swedish by ethnic belonging but born in Kiev, USSR. not sure if that makes me Ukrainian...:) One of my friends was born in Kazan, Russia - does that make him a tatar? hardly.



For me this kind of relationship is completly outdated: Russia has such big problems for example with Far East that hopefully no conflict in Europe will happen again.


Care to elaborate? The Far east is currently one of the most invested-in regions in Russia. The biggest and most technologically advanced Sukhoi plant - KNAAPO is in the Khabarovsk region (the one that makes Su 35 and Superjet). Chinese immigration has been tightened SEVERELY over the last 5 years... I don't see a whole lot of issues. Low population is kind of a problem, but it will even out as the region gets wealthier, I think. The prospects for that are good. (Also speaking somewhat from experience because I have family in Khabarovsk).

As far as China's personal territorial ambitions, they have been smart about it and have been keeping their mouth shut. Russia's an important trading partner and a significant consumer, also has raw goods and nuclear weapons - that alone explains alot.
As you know they have their hands full with their own internal problems, much more so than Russia.

[shadowsrider]

I'm Russo-Swedish by ethnic belonging but born in Kiev, USSR. not sure if that makes me Ukrainian...:)



Care to elaborate? The Far east is currently one of the most invested-in regions in Russia. The biggest and most technologically advanced Sukhoi plant - KNAAPO is in the Khabarovsk region (the one that makes Su 35 and Superjet). Chinese immigration has been tightened SEVERELY over the last 5 years... I don't see a whole lot of issues. Low population is kind of a problem, but it will even out as the region gets wealthier, I think. The prospects for that are good. (Also speaking somewhat from experience because I have family in Khabarovsk).

As far as China's personal territorial claims, they have been smart about it and have been keeping their mouth shut. Russia's an important trading partner and a significant consumer, also has raw goods and nuclear weapons - that alone explains alot.

I think you've elaborated sufficiently. This is what I meant: sooner Europe and Russia will be cooperating against Chinese threat than some historical tensions will turn into conflict.
To be honest I do not have enough knowledge but for my intuition in 20 years Russian Far East will be a problem. (Hopefully not)

[widi243]

Ok we received 2 Oliver Hazard Perrys for free (plus putting some money into their modernization)

What we would have to decomission for few years. I read it in Raport WTO but don.t remember what number.

[Russianlynxy]

I think you've elaborated sufficiently. This is what I meant: sooner Europe and Russia will be cooperating against Chinese threat than some historical tensions will turn into conflict.
To be honest I do not have enough knowledge but for my intuition in 20 years Russian Far East will be a problem. (Hopefully not)

Here we can agree. Russia and Europe/US need to cooporate against China, since they will become quite a problem for everyone in the near future.

[shadowsrider]

Here we can agree. Russia and Europe/US need to cooporate against China, since they will become quite a problem for everyone in the near future.

But my opinion is rather isolated. I work in company where we are fighting Chinese every day. While Chinese are investing in Poland a lot.

[Flamming_Python]

So you're Ukraininan and Russian patriot?
Since hundreds of years on private level Poles and Russians had good relationships. Always much worse on government level.
For me this kind of relationship is completly outdated: Russia has such big problems for example with Far East that hopefully no conflict in Europe will happen again.

As for MiGs 29a, yes but anyway it was great support for our weak at the moment air force.
I may be somehow isolated in my opinion but simply it was real measurment of real actions.
And I forgot other ally: Norway, 5 Kobben submarines for free.

And what problems in the Far East would that be? I hope that you're not refereing to the hypothetical so-far-non-existent Chinese threat that the West is trying to scare us with. In the near term, Russia will be at conflict in the Caucasus and maybe Central Asia. Wars in the wider Eastern European region are also a possibility, but with any luck we'll be able to avoid them.

What I can assure you though, is that a Russo-Chinese war in the Far East will be far more devastating not only to that region but also to your part of Europe and indeed the whole world, than any possible local conflicts in EE/Caucasus, so be careful what you wish for.

[shadowsrider]

And what problems in the Far East would that be? I hope that you're not refereing to the hypothetical so-far-non-existent Chinese threat that the West is trying to scare us with. In the near term, Russia will be at conflict in the Caucasus and maybe Central Asia. Wars in the wider Eastern European region are also a possibility, but with any luck we'll be able to avoid them.

What I can assure you though, is that a Russo-Chinese war in the Far East will be far more devastating not only to that region but also to your part of Europe and indeed the whole world, than any possible local conflicts in EE/Caucasus, so be careful what you wish for.

Take it easy :) I am only amateur observer, not pushing poor Russia to any conflict... and especially I am not wishing disaster to anyone.
What wars in Eastern Europe can Russia be engaged in? Ukraine?
And Central Asia? Which points?

[Wojtop]

I can partially agree with your thesis of "puppet" state.


Shadwosrider, agree with "puppet" state? We are in military alliance called NATO where USA is the big boy and the others are his aides. And yes, we try to cooperate with USA as closely as possible on military level - and cooperation is almost exclusively military-related.

What influence US has on Polish internal policies? Foreign affairs? Politics? Economy? Their influence is much much smaller than EU's.

[asch]

all i can say is "WTF?"
trying hard to understand a line connecting topic subject and last two pages of this thread. so far no success.

[daily666]

all i can say is "WTF?"
trying hard to understand a line connecting topic subject and last two pages of this thread. so far no success.

x2

being drunk makes it even tougher.

[dies irae]

When to measure what our allies done for our country the best Polish ally is Germany and we should follow this path.
x100 I fully agree.

[Holycrusader]

I can partially agree with your thesis of "puppet" state.
Only in matter of TV: international conflicts are extremally complex especially Caucasus or Iraq and there is no white-black there. For official TV: yes, this is black and white: good Georgians, evil Russians.

As for American domination I cannot agree. Simply our government would love to have some US Corps here but US apparently ignores Poland.
I am waiting for a government that will finally admit that and stop believing in American protection and special relationships which are in fact not existing. Poles put lots of effort and money into this alliance sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan. At least our army dramatically upgraded its quality thanks to participation in those operations but thats all.
When to measure what our allies done for our country the best Polish ally is Germany and we should follow this path. The real actions came from this country: offering an armoured brigade of Leopards for 1/4 of market price and a plenty of MiGs-29 for free.
US offered us F-16s Block52 which are of course excellent planes but for excellent money :)

Good post shadowsrider fully agree...