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Lov3ll
08-09-2009, 03:29 PM
New ID cards are supposed to be 'unforgeable' - but it took our expert 12 minutes to clone one, and programme it with false data
By Steve Boggan
Last updated at 9:42 AM on 06th August 2009


Adam Laurie is no ordinary hacker. In the world of computing, he is considered a genius - a man whose talents are used by government departments and blue-chip companies to guard against terrorists and cyber-criminals.

But even by his standards, what he is about to demonstrate is mind-boggling - and deeply disturbing.

Laurie is holding one of 51,000 ID cards issued by the Home Office to foreign nationals currently working or studying in Britain.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/06/article-1204641-05F6EF1F000005DC-540_468x286.jpg
Flawed: The new ID card design, with the same data we were able to forge

It is similar to the ID card for British citizens unveiled last week by Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary, as part of the Government's ongoing National Identity Scheme.

Embedded inside the card for foreigners is a microchip with the details of its bearer held in electronic form: name, date of birth, physical characteristics, fingerprints and so on, together with other information such as immigration status and whether the holder is entitled to State benefits.
This chip is the vital security measure that, so the Government believes, will make identity cards 'unforgeable'.
But as I watch, Laurie picks up a mobile phone and, using just the handset and a laptop computer, electronically copies the ID card microchip and all its information in a matter of minutes.
He then creates a cloned card, and with a little help from another technology expert, he changes all the information the card contains - the physical details of the bearer, name, fingerprints and so on. And he doesn't stop there.
With a few more keystrokes on his computer, Laurie changes the cloned card so that whereas the original card holder was not entitled to benefits, the cloned chip now reads 'Entitled to benefits'.
As a chilling twist, he adds a message that would be visible to any police officer or security official who scanned the card: 'I am a terrorist - shoot on sight.'
And all of this has been done in such a way as to fool the electronic readers intended to check the ID card's authenticity. It is, quite simply, a terrifying achievement.
For the implications of what he has demonstrated could scarcely be more serious. Laurie's fake card could be used to fool banks, commit fraud and maybe even illegally claim benefits or free NHS care.
More disturbing still, it could be used to cover the tracks of terrorists planning atrocities on British or foreign soil. By any sensible measure, his demonstration, as part of a special Mail investigation, should be the final nail in the coffin of the Government's £5.4-billion ID scheme.
The card unveiled by the Home Secretary will not hit the streets until the end of this year, so Laurie has not had the chance to test the precise design.
But according to the UK Identity And Passport Service, it is essentially the same and potentially just as vulnerable as the Home Office's 'foreign nationals' card we tested.
'It is the same technology,' a spokesman told me. 'We're not running two different systems. It is just the facade that is different.'
This does not augur well for the reputation of the supposedly fail-safe ID card. The Government says the scheme will be rolled out only on a 'voluntary' basis, beginning with a trial run in Manchester in November.
But if Labour wins the next General Election and continues with its current policy, the scheme will be expanded nationwide by 2012.
And, as many banks, businesses and public service providers start to require an ID card as part of routine identity checks, Labour hopes the public will feel it has little option other than to 'opt in' to carrying a card, if only to make life simpler.
But would you volunteer for one? The Government insists the technology is totally secure. This investigation shows that the very opposite is true.
Our inquiries began last December, when Adam Laurie and I approached the Home Office with our suspicions that ID cards for foreign nationals, issued for the first time just one month earlier, were potentially flawed.
Officials agreed to meet us to discuss our concerns - then cancelled at the last minute. So we decided to test the system for ourselves. It took us several months to persuade a foreign student to lend us his card to examine. But when we got one, even we were shocked by what we found.
Within 12 minutes of laying his hands on it, Laurie had made a clone. I'll explain what he did next, but first some background.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/06/article-1204641-05E4CA17000005DC-521_468x310.jpg
Disturbing: The card, unveiled by Home Secretary Alan Johnson, will not hit the streets until next year

The Identity Cards Act introduced by Labour in 2006 states that the National Identity Register, which is the backbone of the scheme, may contain 50 separate categories of information about you.
These range from 'biometric data' - your physical characteristics, fingerprints, facial image and so on - to your current and previous addresses, your immigration status, your National Insurance, passport and driving licence numbers.
And, once registered for the scheme, if you fail to inform the Identity And Passport Service of any changes of address, you can be fined up to £1,000.
Contrary to common belief, only two sections of the community were ever to have been forced to have ID cards: foreign nationals from outside the EU wishing to reside in the UK and workers at airports. Now, following an outcry by the unions, only foreign nationals will be compelled to have them.
Even so, it is a huge project. By the end of this year, it is expected that 75,000 cards will have been issued, forming the basis of tougher immigration controls.
For our investigation we borrowed one of these cards from a foreign student whom we shall call Albert (he has asked that we do not use his true name).
About the size of a credit card, it displays his photograph, as well as printed details of his name, date of birth and so on. Embedded inside the plastic, however, is a computer chip that contains an additional digital record of all of these details, together with a copy of Albert's fingerprints.
This is called a Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) chip. It features a tiny antenna that allows the card to bounce back information when contacted by a special electronic 'reader' device.
And it is this which was supposed to be the 'unbreakable' security measure that would ensure ID cards could never be cloned or faked.
We set out to prove whether this was indeed the case, using technology that is freely available on the High Street. We have deliberately withheld some details of our procedure, so as not to encourage criminals. But at its simplest, this is how it works.
To create his 'clone', Adam Laurie studied the card to locate a particular set of numbers that are printed on it. (These provide a key to cracking the encryption on the chip but, for security reasons, we will not reveal where they are).
Laurie then inputted these numbers into a standard Nokia mobile phone, which comes pre-equipped with chip-scanning software.
In seconds, the phone was able to read and copy the readable digital information contained in the chip.
Laurie then held the phone against a blank plastic smart card, of the sort routinely used in office buildings for electronic entry systems or for Transport for London's Oyster cards, all of which contain similar RFID chips.
He was then able to download Albert's ID chip details on to the blank smart card, creating a perfect copy or 'clone'. So far, so extraordinary. But there is more.
Would we also be able to alter the cloned card, changing the details to match another person's data? In other words, would we be able to make an ID chip that was not only a copy of a genuine one, but was a tailor-made fake - the sort that would be much sought-after by any criminal or terrorist seeking the ultimate false proof of identity?
This was a more complex process because the ID chips are supposed to be tamper-proof. Each chip stores its holder's personal data in 16 separate files, known as 'datagroups'.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/06/article-1204641-0177ED8D00000578-41_233x344.jpg
Technology available on the High Street: Standard Nokias come equipped with chip-scanning software

So, for example, Number 1 datagroup has details of Albert's name, date of birth and so on. Number 2 holds a digital version of his photograph, Number 3 his fingerprints right through to Number 13, which holds details of his immigration status, and Number 14 which is reserved for future use - possibly iris scan data.
Each one of these files is supposed to be protected with a special digital key, so that if anyone attempts to change it, the card would be identifiable as a fake to any official with a digital chip reader.
To get round this hurdle, we recruited the help of another technology expert, Jeroen van Beek, an Amsterdam-based computer consultant who advises many top companies on digital security.
Drawing on the work of renowned New Zealand computer scientist Peter Gutmann, our team was able to alter the contents of each datagroup and then 'relock' them, so that the card would be accepted as genuine.
We had created a perfect fake chip. The Government's 'fail-safe' security had failed.

So how could we prove that our fake card would work in everyday use? Well, according to the Home Office's Identity And Passport Service (IPS) and the Government's Directgov website, there will be three methods used to verify ID cards as they slowly become more commonplace.
The first method is simply a visual check. You would present your ID card to a shopkeeper, bank worker, police officer or whoever and they would scrutinise the printed details on the card to confirm you were indeed the rightful holder.

The second would be an onsite check where your face or fingerprints would be compared with those held in the card chip. The third would be an electronic comparison of your face or fingerprints with those lodged on the National Identity Register when you applied for your card.
As for the first check, we have allowed ourselves the luxury of assuming that, in common with all official documents, the facade of the ID card will be faked at some point, in spite of some impressive security features.
Either that, or blank cards will be stolen to order. Last year, for example, 3,000 blank UK passports were spirited away while in transit.
Obviously, having changed the details on the chip, ours would fail the third check, the one against the information on the National Identity Register.
But the Identity And Passport Service doesn't expect most transactions to involve a check with the register, because it is likely to involve a charge to the user of about £2.
The most important check, therefore, and the one experts believe will be most commonplace, is the second one - the one where an electronic reader at a shop, bank, supermarket and so on would compare your fingerprints or facial image with that contained on your card's chip.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/06/article-1204641-0255884D000004B0-647_233x375.jpg
'Folly': Chris Huhne, Lib Dem Shadow Home Secretary, dubbed the venture an 'intrusion into our privacy'

So would our 'fake' card pass this test? Incredibly, even though more than 51,000 ID cards have already been issued, there are no official electronic readers to check them against, except at UK borders, where foreigners' ID cards have replaced old-style paper visas.
There, the readers must comply with standards set down by the International Civil Aviation Organization, a branch of the United Nations.
Its card and passport-checking software, called Golden Reader Tool, is designed to spot faked chips and will almost certainly be the system implemented in the next phase of the ID card scheme.
So we downloaded the latest version of Golden Reader and used it to test our cloned card. The card passed. We had created a perfect electronic forgery - one that could be used for any number of illegal activities.
This, however, was not enough to ring alarm bells at the Home Office.
When told of our investigation, a spokesman said: 'We are satisfied the personal data on the chip cannot be changed or modified and there is no evidence this has happened.

'The identity card includes a number of design and security features that are extremely difficult to replicate.
'We remain confident that the identity card is one of the most secure of its kind, fully meeting rigorous international standards.

That view is not shared by Ian Angell, professor of information systems at the London School of Economics. He said: 'This has put a huge nail in the coffin of the National Identity Scheme. The Government can no longer say ID cards will protect us from identity theft. You have proved that they won't.'
So what does all this mean? Well, technological fixes may eventually be available for all our hacks and fiddles.
Nevertheless, we have demonstrated that there are serious questions to be answered about the security of the whole project.
'If the Government is serious about preventing identity theft, then it really has to do better than this,' says Adam Laurie.
'My real concern is that if someone falls victim to an identity theft of the type we have demonstrated, it is going to be very hard for them to prove their innocence if that forged card is subsequently used to commit a crime.
'After all, the Government claims that the technology is foolproof.'
Even if we set aside such security concerns, it would appear that the whole ID scheme is in a shambolic state.
The Identity And Passport Service is currently issuing about 10,000 ID cards a month, but in the absence of any digital readers, any organisation that wants to check a card's authenticity is in for a shock.
The Home Office advises calling the UK Border Agency Card Verification Helpline. So I did just that. It took 19 minutes for someone to answer the phone.
Posing as a businessman, I said I had recently been shown a new ID card by a customer as proof of his identity and was uncertain whether I could rely on it. I was told to ask my customer for a 'second proof of identity'.
In other words, even the official ID card helpline says it's best to rely on other forms of identity. In which case, why bother having the cards at all?
So, the theory is flawed, the technology is flawed, and the checks on ID cards are either non-existent or woefully insufficient.
When we told Chris Huhne, the Liberal Democrat Shadow Home Secretary, about our findings, he was appalled.
'The Daily Mail's investigation has blown such a huge hole in the Government's ill-fated ID card scheme that it is now sinking beneath the waves,' he said.
'Surely it can only be a matter of time before Home Secretary Alan Johnson recognises the folly of continuing with this expensive and misguided intrusion into our privacy.'
How much more proof does the Government need before it bows to the inevitable and scraps this useless and nonsensical enterprise - and saves us £5 billion into the bargain?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1204641/New-ID-cards-supposed-unforgeable--took-expert-12-minutes-clone-programme-false-data.html

Wahnsinn
08-09-2009, 03:55 PM
ID would be a massive waste of money if they are rolled out nationally which hopefully if the Tories win the next election, won't happen). I can't think of one time where it would help me to carry an ID card and I'm not having my fingerprints put on a database like a criminal.

Connaught Ranger
08-09-2009, 04:15 PM
ID would be a massive waste of money if they are rolled out nationally which hopefully if the Tories win the next election, won't happen). I can't think of one time where it would help me to carry an ID card and I'm not having my fingerprints put on a database like a criminal.

Funny, carrying an ID card holds no fears for most of the people who live on mainland Europe and none as far as I am aware had to be fingerprinted.:roll:

I carry an ID card in Transylvania, Romania, even as a foreigner, it has lots of uses like being used when you go to the Post Office, Bank, when purchasing, electrical items, buying a car, completing legal papers etc..etc as well as a form of I.D. when the police make a check on people in the street.

Believe it or not the government already know who you are by your social welfare number, birth certificate, driving license, passport etc..etc.. so you are already on a data base somewhere.

goat89
08-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Funny, carrying an ID card holds no fears for most of the people who live on mainland Europe and none as far as I am aware had to be fingerprinted.:roll:

I carry an ID card in Transylvania, Romania, even as a foreigner, it has lots of uses like being used when you go to the Post Office, Bank, when purchasing, electrical items, buying a car, completing legal papers etc..etc as well as a form of I.D. when the police make a check on people in the street.

Believe it or not the government already know who you are by your social welfare number, birth certificate, driving license, passport etc..etc.. so you are already on a data base somewhere.
X2. People see it as a vital threat to their privacy, but don't realize it has other uses too with our safety in mind. HELL! Getting an ID card back home is like entering another stage in life! :D

Eye
08-09-2009, 04:19 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/06/article-1204641-05F6EF1F000005DC-540_468x286.jpg

I thought Brits are subjects, not citizens.

SHAM
08-09-2009, 04:19 PM
Funny, carrying an ID card holds no fears for most of the people who live on mainland Europe and none as far as I am aware had to be fingerprinted.:roll:

I carry an ID card in Transylvania, Romania, even as a foreigner, it has lots of uses like being used when you go to the Post Office, Bank, when purchasing, electrical items, buying a car, completing legal papers etc..etc as well as a form of I.D. when the police make a check on people in the street.

Believe it or not the government already know who you are by your social welfare number, birth certificate, driving license, passport etc..etc.. so you are already on a data base somewhere.

Why do you need an id card at the post office, bank, purchasing electrical items or buying a car if you dont mind me asking?

Eye
08-09-2009, 04:24 PM
X2. People see it as a vital threat to their privacy, but don't realize it has other uses too with our safety in mind.
I would agree it's not threat for privacy if IDs were not compulsory.

goat89
08-09-2009, 04:27 PM
Why do you need an id card at the post office, bank, purchasing electrical items or buying a car if you dont mind me asking?
For a post office, the ID has your address on it when you collect stuff, for a bank its sometimes std procedure to verify you (diff countries have diff procedures for using ID cards in banks I believe), electrical items... I dunno... we dont do that here in S'pore, buying a car? Like a bank, verify you and put down info for a license here in S'pore. Pretty strict when buying a car back home as we are a small country, don't want 2 much pollution.

oldsoak
08-09-2009, 04:28 PM
Mod 90's are out then.
Passports can be cloned as well, thats why the Daily Hate reckons its pointless issueing them as a means of id, ditto driving licences.....sarcasm....

Connaught Ranger
08-09-2009, 04:29 PM
Why do you need an id card at the post office, bank, purchasing electrical items or buying a car if you dont mind me asking?

Well you have to provide id when collecting money (over the counter withdrawal, or changing foreign currency,) from the bank or paying money into somebody's account.

You have to provide id when collecting Registered letters from the Post Office.

You have to provide an I.D. Number that goes on the guarantee forms for electrical goods, cars etc..etc..

Connaught Ranger.

LineDoggie
08-09-2009, 04:31 PM
Lets say your purchasing that Auto under credit

Would be nice of the Dealer/Seller to verify the person about to be charged is the owner of that card/cheque/bank draft, no?

Would be nice to make sure your not selling an Auto to someone prohibited, no?

Would be nice for a Branch Bank Teller to insure you are the owner of the account withdrawing your money, no?


Would be nice to make sure the Postal clerk isnt giving your mail to any snuffy who shows up mentioning your name, no?


When I am at My bank and a teller who doesnt know me asks for my ID before I withdraw Money, I dont get angry at them, I think to myself at least there looking out for me and my funds.

SHAM
08-09-2009, 04:34 PM
For a post office, the ID has your address on it when you collect stuff, for a bank its sometimes std procedure to verify you (diff countries have diff procedures for using ID cards in banks I believe), electrical items... I dunno... we dont do that here in S'pore, buying a car? Like a bank, verify you and put down info for a license here in S'pore. Pretty strict when buying a car back home as we are a small country, don't want 2 much pollution.

The reason I asked was, I do all those things..without an id card.
When I collect parcells, I have the reciept they put in my letter box to tell me the parcell was there.
The bank only needs an id when opening a new account in a new bank, passport will do.
No id needed for purchasing electrical items, money is the only id they recognise.
Buying a car, same thing, money is the only id they recognise, wether your licenced to drive it or not is your own business, you take the responsibility when you had over the money, its your car.

RIPTIDE
08-09-2009, 04:35 PM
Lets say your purchasing that Auto under credit

Would be nice of the Dealer/Seller to verify the person about to be charged is the owner of that card/cheque/bank draft, no?

Would be nice to make sure your not selling an Auto to someone prohibited, no?

Would be nice for a Branch Bank Teller to insure you are the owner of the account withdrawing your money, no?


Would be nice to make sure the Postal clerk isnt giving your mail to any snuffy who shows up mentioning your name, no?


When I am at My bank and a teller who doesnt know me asks for my ID before I withdraw Money, I dont get angry at them, I think to myself at least there looking out for me and my funds.

Its also nice that everything you listed above can be done with a Passport already.

Connaught Ranger
08-09-2009, 04:37 PM
When I lived in Germany late 1997 - 2003 you had to register at the local Rathaus in the town you were staying, at the Auslanderamt, you had to get a work permit (even if you are a E.U. citizen) from the Arbidsamt, if there was a control on the job and you didnt have the permit which has your picture on it, you were fined. You had to give your boss a bank account number (kontonummer) for your wages to be paid into, no cash in hand payments. You could not buy a mobile phone unless you could show you had permission to reside in the country. So at any one time I had at least three forms of id on me if stopped by the Bordergrensschutz, who made on the spot checks on trains, car parks, train stations, or even a control by the local police, I know they could even use your German bank issued ATM card to id you if you did not have the other documentation.

Most Germans only bothered getting a passport if they intended traveling outside the country to non-EU-destinations for holidays. There are many Irish & British people do not have passports, people who quite happily stay at home or only travel in the E.U.

SHAM
08-09-2009, 04:37 PM
Its also nice that everything you listed above can be done with a Passport already.

Or without, banking is handled by chip and pin.

goat89
08-09-2009, 04:40 PM
Or without, banking is handled by chip and pin.
Yep, its slowly being changed over here I believe. 'Internet' banking is the way to go... I dun like it though... ><

Corrupt
08-09-2009, 04:40 PM
I have to say that my Driving License, Passport and more recently Mod 90 have always sufficed when i've needed Id...ie buying age restricted products and...actually thats about all i've ever needed it for other than using Mod 90 to get onto raf bases. I really cba with yet another... Tbh just the driving license does fine unless I'm abroad outside Europe

RIPTIDE
08-09-2009, 04:40 PM
Or without, banking is handled by chip and pin.
True. And without Chip+pin you can present your passport and make a withdrawal. They might even ask you a question like "When was your last withdrawal/payment /whatever" to double check. p-)

Corrupt
08-09-2009, 04:47 PM
True. And without Chip+pin you can present your passport and make a withdrawal. They might even ask you a question like "When was your last withdrawal/payment /whatever" to double check. p-)

Since when?
My mate forgot his pin and went inside to withdraw. They didnt ask any questions (not even why dont you use the cash machine 5 yards away sir) or ask for ID. Was rediculously easy...

LineDoggie
08-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Its also nice that everything you listed above can be done with a Passport already.
IF you have one. I know many people who dont. But here almost everyone has either a Drivers license or other form of Photo ID.

SHAM
08-09-2009, 04:50 PM
Since when?
My mate forgot his pin and went inside to withdraw. They didnt ask any questions (not even why dont you use the cash machine 5 yards away sir) or ask for ID. Was rediculously easy...

If he forgot his PIN how was he going to use the cash machine?
And how did he withdraw without his PIN inside, filled in a withdrawal slip and presented his ATM card?

big_les
08-09-2009, 04:51 PM
I thought Brits are subjects, not citizens.

We're both.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4191613.stm

goat89
08-09-2009, 04:51 PM
IF you have one. I know many people who dont. But here almost everyone has either a Drivers license or other form of Photo ID.
Yeah, its not surprising if many people who don't.

Geezah
08-09-2009, 06:03 PM
Are you still able to go down to the Births, Deaths and Marriages and pick up a birth certificate for who ever you want?

capixaba
08-09-2009, 06:14 PM
Well you have to provide id when collecting money (over the counter withdrawal, or changing foreign currency,) from the bank or paying money into somebody's account.

You have to provide id when collecting Registered letters from the Post Office.

You have to provide an I.D. Number that goes on the guarantee forms for electrical goods, cars etc..etc..

Connaught Ranger.

Same here in Brazil.....it's a legal requirement to be carrying id, but you need it for all the same stuff mentioned above anyway. You have both an ID card and a CPF (tax payers card). The driving liscence has both numbers on it and you can use that as id also - say for checking onto a domestic flight. When you validate a visa you get photographed and fingerprinted by the Policia Federal, so you are on the database from day one.

goat89
08-09-2009, 06:21 PM
Are you still able to go down to the Births, Deaths and Marriages and pick up a birth certificate for who ever you want?
I don't think you can do that here in S'pore. Its illegal. ><

Evolv5
08-09-2009, 06:36 PM
I have to say that my Driving License, Passport and more recently Mod 90 have always sufficed when i've needed Id...ie buying age restricted products and...actually thats about all i've ever needed it for other than using Mod 90 to get onto raf bases. I really cba with yet another... Tbh just the driving license does fine unless I'm abroad outside Europe

Finally! I meet another human being who uses the term CBA!

Geezah
08-09-2009, 06:54 PM
I don't think you can do that here in S'pore. Its illegal. ><

I know that I had to get a replacement for my interview at the American Embassy in London, and all I recall was going through the big books looking for my info and telling them which BC I wanted.

TallGuy
08-09-2009, 07:12 PM
Here, most people who have a debit or credit card don't really need to show ID at banks because your picture pops up on their screen. They ask for a password if you want to wire money or check your account via telephone.
Our community is very open. You can look up anyone online, to see their current address and National Idenity number. There's also an online database with all living and dead Icelanders. The database goes back more than a thousand years. I use it quite often to see if I'm related to certain person or to check my ancestry.

happyslapper
08-09-2009, 07:15 PM
Remind me why I need yet another ID???

I can think of better ways to spend 5.5 BILLION pounds...

Bitogno
08-10-2009, 05:02 AM
As a French living in London the strange thing for me is that people here don't want ID cards but agree with the CCTV which is the opposite in France.

Connaught Ranger
08-10-2009, 05:06 AM
Are you still able to go down to the Births, Deaths and Marriages and pick up a birth certificate for who ever you want?

I think you can get a document marked "copy" after the Irish Army misfiled my original BC, I wrote off to Nottingham and got a copy after sending a "postal Order" for the required amount.

Connaught Ranger.

rgjbloke
08-10-2009, 05:17 AM
There are several pretty sound ways to verify I.D. without spending billions on a new scheme, particularly in the current economic climate. I do however support the idea of people who are here from abroad seeking permanent residency carrying an I.D. card because, it does simplify matters both from their perspective and that of employers and the authorities. The point of this thread though is that they are easy to clone, and, thats going to be a big problem.

Red Bar0n
08-10-2009, 05:19 AM
This sound like another Hollywood movie, first they promise us all the good stuff then we'll end up being oppressed.

Wahnsinn
08-10-2009, 07:29 AM
Funny, carrying an ID card holds no fears for most of the people who live on mainland Europe and none as far as I am aware had to be fingerprinted.:roll:

I carry an ID card in Transylvania, Romania, even as a foreigner, it has lots of uses like being used when you go to the Post Office, Bank, when purchasing, electrical items, buying a car, completing legal papers etc..etc as well as a form of I.D. when the police make a check on people in the street.

Believe it or not the government already know who you are by your social welfare number, birth certificate, driving license, passport etc..etc.. so you are already on a data base somewhere.


So, for example, Number 1 datagroup has details of Albert's name, date of birth and so on. Number 2 holds a digital version of his photograph, Number 3 his fingerprints right through to Number 13, which holds details of his immigration status, and Number 14 which is reserved for future use - possibly iris scan data. It did say fingerprints in the article. p-) A decent system for ID cards could work but the current system is a massive white elephant.

I know I'm on a database somewhere, anybody with the right access could find out all they want about me very easily so why put my details on another database? If I need ID I usually take my passport and that suffices just fine. The Police where I live certainly don't just randomly stop and check who you are, so I see no need for an ID card.

Connaught Ranger
08-10-2009, 07:44 AM
It did say fingerprints in the article. p-) A decent system for ID cards could work but the current system is a massive white elephant.

I know I'm on a database somewhere, anybody with the right access could find out all they want about me very easily so why put my details on another database? If I need ID I usually take my passport and that suffices just fine. The Police where I live certainly don't just randomly stop and check who you are, so I see no need for an ID card.

When you have to go and get your new British bio-passport you will have to give fingerprints, and possibly a DNA sample anyway, carrying a national id card speeds up processing if and when you are subject to a random control, I firmly believe that only the guilty have something to fear with regards having an official i.d. card

oldsoak
08-10-2009, 07:47 AM
Dont forget the rectal scan. I'm told the pattern of blood vessels is unique to each individual.

Wahnsinn
08-10-2009, 08:43 AM
When you have to go and get your new British bio-passport you will have to give fingerprints, and possibly a DNA sample anyway, carrying a national id card speeds up processing if and when you are subject to a random control, I firmly believe that only the guilty have something to fear with regards having an official i.d. card

I'm guilty of no crime other than thinking this is a complete waste of money really and trying to infer I have something to hide is a little derogatory. I can understand giving fingerprints for passports as you get fingerprinted going into many countries anyway (America etc) but I don't think the whole population should be fingerprinted for internal use, or be forced to at the very least. Presenting an ID card in a bank when making a withdrawl isn't really gonna help anymore than having a passport or driving license would.

Corrupt
08-10-2009, 08:48 AM
If he forgot his PIN how was he going to use the cash machine?
And how did he withdraw without his PIN inside, filled in a withdrawal slip and presented his ATM card?

Just walked up, handed over card, asked how much was in the account and emptied it to the nearest ten quid lol. Did seem to be the most flawed system ever tbh...

Am glad I got in about 3 weeks before the new biometric passports came out :) saves so much hassle

SHAM
08-10-2009, 01:14 PM
As a French living in London the strange thing for me is that people here don't want ID cards but agree with the CCTV which is the opposite in France.

Such polite criminals in France, leaving there id cards at the scene of the cime for the cops to collect.

big_les
08-10-2009, 04:53 PM
I'm guilty of no crime other than thinking this is a complete waste of money really and trying to infer I have something to hide is a little derogatory. I can understand giving fingerprints for passports as you get fingerprinted going into many countries anyway (America etc) but I don't think the whole population should be fingerprinted for internal use, or be forced to at the very least. Presenting an ID card in a bank when making a withdrawl isn't really gonna help anymore than having a passport or driving license would.

Absolutely agree. And it's not about whether you have something to fear *now* (although there's nothing wrong in principle with wanting privacy) - it's what a future government could do with the infrastructure.

And more importantly than any of this, it's about how secure, well-implemented, and cost-effective the system(s) are - and the OP shows that this is yet another piece of government FAIL. Why should we acquiesce to their desire to see into our lives when they can't administer the simplest of IT projects (want examples- take your pick of any Home Office, police, NHS, or other government-related IT effort of the past 20 years.). Constant loss of data, failure to deliver on time, on budget, or in purpose.

oldsoak
08-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Dont understand why its an issue just for us. The English speaking countries are the only ones which have a problem in the use or administration of id cards. Every other b*gger does not. We obviously are incapable of running any card scheme and we alone feel watched in some way.

Wahnsinn
08-10-2009, 05:35 PM
Dont understand why its an issue just for us. The English speaking countries are the only ones which have a problem in the use or administration of id cards. Every other b*gger does not. We obviously are incapable of running any card scheme and we alone feel watched in some way.

Because some jobsworth will leave a laptop on a train containing 20 million records or something and people won't be finding it so useful then. It is a waste of money, they aren't needed, they can't be that hard to fake judging by this article so it is wasting the taxpayers money.

capixaba
08-16-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm guilty of no crime other than thinking this is a complete waste of money really and trying to infer I have something to hide is a little derogatory. I can understand giving fingerprints for passports as you get fingerprinted going into many countries anyway (America etc) but I don't think the whole population should be fingerprinted for internal use, or be forced to at the very least. Presenting an ID card in a bank when making a withdrawl isn't really gonna help anymore than having a passport or driving license would.

Quite a few places the id card and photo driving license become the same thing - I'm sure in Sweden for one. Here in Brazil I have an id card -foreigeners ones are different from nationals as is the numbering system - so it kind of marks you out. That would probably cause a **** storm if you did that in the UK! I actually now use my (Brazilian) drivers license more as id - you have to look closely to see it's got a foreigners id number beat's pulling out a brit passport to get on a long distance bus and the like! I really don't want to be carting my passport around inte street.
Just for laughs I used my Brazilian id as photo id in the O2 shop in Glasgow last time back without problem...only led to an interesting conversation! It's got my mug on it and also my parents (good Scottish) names on it.
I think there's two real issues in the UK - those who oppose having photo id full stop, and those who have misgivings about the way they are going about it - trying to make it into something it doesn't need to be.
Don't think Connaught was meaning to be derogatory toyou.

Wahnsinn
08-16-2009, 01:40 PM
Quite a few places the id card and photo driving license become the same thing - I'm sure in Sweden for one. Here in Brazil I have an id card -foreigeners ones are different from nationals as is the numbering system - so it kind of marks you out. That would probably cause a **** storm if you did that in the UK! I actually now use my (Brazilian) drivers license more as id - you have to look closely to see it's got a foreigners id number beat's pulling out a brit passport to get on a long distance bus and the like! I really don't want to be carting my passport around inte street.
Just for laughs I used my Brazilian id as photo id in the O2 shop in Glasgow last time back without problem...only led to an interesting conversation! It's got my mug on it and also my parents (good Scottish) names on it.
I think there's two real issues in the UK - those who oppose having photo id full stop, and those who have misgivings about the way they are going about it - trying to make it into something it doesn't need to be.
Don't think Connaught was meaning to be derogatory toyou.

I'm not making it into something it doesn't need to be, just why do we need them?