Population of a country & how it relates to various institutions

[commanding]

I am getting a bit tired of the constant comparing one country to another, in relation to how one country handles some institution (political, educational, healthcare, military, family, religious, business, etc).
I believe that the population of a country, does indeed have a direct bearing on if various types of institutions will "work" for that population. Not only that but the physical size in square miles will change how institutions work.
What works for the USA with a pop of 307 million, may not work for Luxembourg with a pop of 493 thousand, and vice versa.

comments welcome

[el borracho]

I brought that up in debates about healthcare reform. Whenever people point out how well it works in Norway they neglect to mention that not only does that country have a tiny population compared to the US, it is nearly homogenous in ethnicity and has a much more evenly distributed base of wealth...the US, not so much. The few thousand "have's" in this country aren't willing (and shouldn't have) to pay for the millions of "have not's."

[Gleipnir]

Yeah, I am sick of that too.
Statistics don't reflect details that contribute to the overall picture. The people who like to use these comparisons are simplistic reductionists in my opinion and often use the data to reflect whatever political point they are pressing without taking into account the real-world complexity that can be used to counter that reflection.

It seems that now a days people want to reduce everything down to its most simplistic components and that binary oppositional systems are favoured. To think that complex histories, politics and sociological signifiers can be summed up neatly within a minute through an ethnocentric reading that doesn't take into account cultural elements contributing to the data is in any way acceptable as evidence or as 'truth' fills me with worry and disgust.

[Ordie]

The US Federal / State / County / Municipal system was ideal when the country was mostly rural.

In the 200+ years of the United States, the population is more urban and mobile that city limits, county lines, and state lines are just arbitrary lines.

I don't think the current system works well enough to represent the interests of the urban metropolitan areas well enough.

For example Vancouver, Washington and Portland, Oregon share the same space and issues of the day, but are separately represented pollitically at all levels expect at the Federal level.

[ren0312]

The US Federal / State / County / Municipal system was ideal when the country was mostly rural.

In the 200+ years of the United States, the population is more urban and mobile that city limits, county lines, and state lines are just arbitrary lines.

I don't think the current system works well enough to represent the interests of the urban metropolitan areas well enough.

For example Vancouver, Washington and Portland, Oregon share the same space and issues of the day, but are separately represented pollitically at all levels expect at the Federal level.

If you look at the way the US was organized it was made spefically so that the more populous states would not overwhelm the smaller states thorugh sheer numbers, and that the US Senate was supposed to represent the will of the States, that is why every state has 2 Senators regardless of whether that state's population is 300,000 or 30 million, and that goes for urban vs. rural areas as well, in order to fully comprehend the reasons for why the Founding Fathers set up the US political system in this manner you really need to have a substantial knowledge of classical antiquity.

[Ordie]

If you look at the way the US was organized it was made spefically so that the more populous states would not overwhelm the smaller states thorugh sheer numbers, and that the US Senate was supposed to represent the will of the States, that is why every state has 2 Senators regardless of whether that state's population is 300,000 or 30 million, and that goes for urban vs. rural areas as well, in order to fully comprehend the reasons for why the Founding Fathers set up the US political system in this manner you really need to have a substantial knowledge of classical antiquity.

Metropolitan areas are evolving rapidly as a greater economic entities that cross all political boundaries including international borders.

For example, the corridor linking Vancouver Canada to Eugene Oregon can be considered as a Common regional economic engine.

[Ordie]

I just want to add that the rural flyover states have disproportionate influence over revenue and allocation policies. Sometimes at the expense of urban metro areas.

[HellToupee]

Well it depends, any institution thats properly structured shouldn't have problems with how many people it has to serve.

[ren0312]

I just want to add that the rural flyover states have disproportionate influence over revenue and allocation policies. Sometimes at the expense of urban metro areas.

I think the US was not mean to be a democracy anyway but a Republic with some features of a democracy, basically the US governing system is just a somewhat modified version of the Roman Republican system, so basicallly instead of having two consuls who get reelected every year you have 1 consul that gets reelected every 4 years, otherwise the structures of govenrment were quite similar, even down to the system of electoral votes.

[commanding]

Damn fine comments! I am a bit wishy washy on the fly over states deal...as many of those fly over states are the "bread basket" of this country, and produce the large volume of food, fiber, minerals, etc for this country to continue thriving in the urban environment. So shouldn't they have an equal footing as the urban folks? Not arguing... just saying...

[Ordie]

Damn fine comments! I am a bit wishy washy on the fly over states deal...as many of those fly over states are the "bread basket" of this country, and produce the large volume of food, fiber, minerals, etc for this country to continue thriving in the urban environment. So shouldn't they have an equal footing as the urban folks? Not arguing... just saying...

But much of the farming today is corporate with ADM and Monsanto enjoying large sums of government subsidies.

Ironically much of the 'bread basket' are food deserts with poor access to fresh produce.

California provides 40% of the nation's fruits and vegetables.

[tluassa]

I am getting a bit tired of the constant comparing one country to another, in relation to how one country handles some institution (political, educational, healthcare, military, family, religious, business, etc).
I believe that the population of a country, does indeed have a direct bearing on if various types of institutions will "work" for that population. Not only that but the physical size in square miles will change how institutions work.
What works for the USA with a pop of 307 million, may not work for Luxembourg with a pop of 493 thousand, and vice versa.

comments welcome

Yeah, but the argument related to healthcare is complete bull, since a similar number of People are living in Western Europe and still general healthcare works, despite European GDP beeing a lot lower compared to the United States.

[commanding]

But much of the farming today is corporate with ADM and Monsanto enjoying large sums of government subsidies.

Ironically much of the 'bread basket' are food deserts with poor access to fresh produce.

California provides 40% of the nation's fruits and vegetables.

But how about: chicken, beef, pork, fish, wheat, corn, cotton, peanuts, rice, milk and cheese? I think wheat and corn are likely the most important and provide food/ calories so huge that we have surpluses that not only feed the entire US but provide food for other countries as well.
I don't know really, but assume much of the above comes from fly over country except for the seafood of course. and thanks to CA for the fruit and veggies.

[commanding]

Yeah, but the argument related to healthcare is complete bull, since a similar number of People are living in Western Europe and still general healthcare works, despite European GDP beeing a lot lower compared to the United States.

I think some of the disparity of the US and say the European nations re: instituional healthcare system,comes from the US being a "super power" role, and spending large amounts of our gross national product dollars on military matters (that otherwise might be available for things like healthcare).

[Shuimo]

I am getting a bit tired of the constant comparing one country to another, in relation to how one country handles some institution (political, educational, healthcare, military, family, religious, business, etc).
I believe that the population of a country, does indeed have a direct bearing on if various types of institutions will "work" for that population. Not only that but the physical size in square miles will change how institutions work.
What works for the USA with a pop of 307 million, may not work for Luxembourg with a pop of 493 thousand, and vice versa.

comments welcome

Very good question you asked!
Population and size of a country count tons in its institutional arrangements!
A ready issue springs to mind---- For China to copy western model of democracy or not!

The classic argument used by CPC to defend its political system of China in the face of western pressure boils down to what Deng Xiaoping famously preached: Actual national conditions of China disctate that China has to build socialism with Chinese characteristics! Which is unfortuantely true indeed in my opinion!

Just think of China in terms of its thousands of years of fedualistic history,
vast-stretching landmass with wide range of geographic features, the largest billion-numbered population with the largest number of farmers, colorful ethnic diversity......

If you dip further into these issues, you wud know better why CPC should prefer one type of policy over another!

[Shuimo]

I brought that up in debates about healthcare reform. Whenever people point out how well it works in Norway they neglect to mention that not only does that country have a tiny population compared to the US, it is nearly homogenous in ethnicity and has a much more evenly distributed base of wealth...the US, not so much. The few thousand "have's" in this country aren't willing (and shouldn't have) to pay for the millions of "have not's."

What about making China a comparison object of the USA?

[el borracho]

What about it? Are you trying to stir something up?

[Koppo]

I think some of the disparity of the US and say the European nations re: instituional healthcare system,comes from the US being a "super power" role, and spending large amounts of our gross national product dollars on military matters (that otherwise might be available for things like healthcare).

The thing is that most European countries spend less gdp in relative terms to health care: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_compared#Canadian_health_care_in_comparison
From what i've gathered lot of spending goes more expensive drugs and many inefficiencies.

[Shuimo]

What about it? Are you trying to stir something up?

I am asking you this seriously!

[Shuimo]

If we can transcend ideological prejudices and bias, I think China and America make good match for comparison on many issues!

1 Both boast vast landmass, almost an equivalent of each other! China: 9.6 million sq kilometers, America: 9.3 million sq kilometers!

2 Both have a large population with heterogeneous ethnicity!
China: 1.3 billion people
America: 0.3 billion people, though relativley small in comparison with China, but it is still a large population in comparison with that of many other countries!

3 Both have strong cultural self-confidence:
The Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to people.
The Americans regard themselves as God's chosen people.

4 Both are highly pragmatic nations!

[commanding]

If we can transcend ideological prejudices and bias, I think China and America make good match for comparison on many issues!

1 Both boast vast landmass, almost an equivalent of each other! China: 9.6 million sq kilometers, America: 9.3 million sq kilometers!

2 Both have a large population with heterogeneous ethnicity!
China: 1.3 billion people
America: 0.3 billion people, though relativley small in comparison with China, but it is still a large population in comparison with that of many other countries!

3 Both have strong cultural self-confidence:
The Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to people.
The Americans regard themselves as God's chosen people.

4 Both are highly pragmatic nations!
I would disagree that americans think they are God's chosen people....that is a little much! China has many more times the # people the US does.
Where are you going with this?

[Shuimo]

I would disagree that americans think they are God's chosen people....that is a little much! China has many more times the # people the US does.
Where are you going with this?

If Americans are not God's chosen people, who else are?

I just pointed out a similarity of the mentalities the two nations share, which might help to explain their sometimes less than seemlingly understandable actions taken under the guidance of such superior-to-others beliefs!

[Rilence]

If we can transcend ideological prejudices and bias, I think China and America make good match for comparison on many issues!

1 Both boast vast landmass, almost an equivalent of each other! China: 9.6 million sq kilometers, America: 9.3 million sq kilometers!

2 Both have a large population with heterogeneous ethnicity!
China: 1.3 billion people
America: 0.3 billion people, though relativley small in comparison with China, but it is still a large population in comparison with that of many other countries!

3 Both have strong cultural self-confidence:
The Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to people.
The Americans regard themselves as God's chosen people.

4 Both are highly pragmatic nations!
Where did you get that from?

[Shuimo]

Where did you get that from?

Out of my own observations!
Of course you can raise yr objections to any of them!

[Mackie]

I think some of the disparity of the US and say the European nations re: instituional healthcare system,comes from the US being a "super power" role, and spending large amounts of our gross national product dollars on military matters (that otherwise might be available for things like healthcare).

You spend enough commanding
If some American friends here in Germany need some basic medicine they are shocked how cheap it is while produced in Germany.
I am all pro market. But the market needs a real competition to function.
That's the biggest problem in healthcare. It's a very complex and expensive field.

[hulaku]

[QUOTE=Shuimo;4335951]The Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to people.
QUOTE]

Can we please turn this gift away?

You are no gift you are as normal as any other human being.

Get off your high horse and try to be free men.

[Rilence]

Out of my own observations!
Of course you can raise yr objections to any of them!
Well, i live in the United States and the people i have met and known especially religious, don't seem to regard ourselves as the chosen people. Your observations seem to be ignorant assumptions.

[Shuimo]

Well, i live in the United States and the people i have met and known especially religious, don't seem to regard ourselves as the chosen people. Your observations seem to be ignorant assumptions.

No, I have not been to the USA!That doesn't mean I can't have anything right to say about the country and its people!
My observations of what Americans act on the international stage just comfirm what I read about the nation!

[Shuimo]

[QUOTE=Shuimo;4335951]The Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to people.
QUOTE]

Can we please turn this gift away?

You are no gift you are as normal as any other human being.

Get off your high horse and try to be free men.

I just told you this is just a matter of belief, which of course doesn't mean it has to be iron-truth!

[hulaku]

No, I have not been to the USA!That doesn't mean I can't have anything right to say about the country and its people!
My observations of what Americans act on the international stage just comfirm what I read about the nation!

One word FREEDOM

It doesnt come easy.

Fight for it so that one day we talk like free menp-)

[Rilence]

No, I have not been to the USA!That doesn't mean I can't have anything right to say about the country and its people!
My observations of what Americans act on the international stage just comfirm what I read about the nation!
I didn't you say you couldn't. You don't have to put words in my mouth, Donger. What i am saying, from my observation of actually living here, we don't regard ourselves as the chosen people.

[Shuimo]

One word FREEDOM

It doesnt come easy.

Fight for it so that one day we talk like free menp-)

I find you increasingly incapable of saying anything meaningful rather than sing these old democracy tunes in almost each of yr posts!

You are only discrediting yrself by doing that!

[Shuimo]

I didn't you say you couldn't. You don't have to put words in my mouth, Donger. What i am saying, from my observation of actually living here, we don't regard ourselves as the chosen people.
Wish it true!

[hulaku]

I find you increasingly incapable of saying anything meaningful rather than sing these old democracy tunes in almost each of yr posts!

You are only discrediting yrself by doing that!

Am I hurting you darling? Im sorry i wont be so rough next time.

Dont get personal its not about you and me.p-)

[Shuimo]

Am I hurting you darling? Im sorry i wont be so rough next time.

Dont get personal its not about you and me.p-)
I am not in the slightest hurt by that stuff which is too familiar to us commies!

I just find you lacking any real argument!

[Rilence]

Wish it true!
No.




12345357

[Shuimo]

No.




12345357

OK! Ley us keep our opinions to ourselves!

[hulaku]

I am not in the slightest hurt by that stuff which is too familiar to us commies!

I just find you lacking any real argument!

I can only argue with you if you post in English.

[Rilence]

OK! Ley us keep our opinions to ourselves!
That would be defeating the purpose of why i am here. No.



By the way, I have no idea what you're trying to say half the time.

[Shuimo]

That would be defeating the purpose of why i am here. No.
y the way, I have no idea what you're trying to say half the time.

Yr purpose is...?

[Rilence]

Yr purpose is...?
Have a discussion. We're on a forum, you know.

[Shuimo]

Have a discussion. We're on a forum, you know.

So you need to defeat an argument through real debating rather than resort to the "I live in the US card"!

[Rilence]

So you need to defeat an argument through real debating rather than resort to the "I live in the US card"!
I wasn't trying to play any card, i was mentioning the fact i live here because you said Americans regard themselves as the chosen people and I'm saying from my experience of actually living here, that's not true. Is that so hard to understand or are you going to twist my words again? :roll:

[Shuimo]

I wasn't trying to play any card, i was mentioning the fact i live here because you said Americans regard themselves as the chosen people and I'm saying from my experience of actually living here, that's not true. Is that so hard to understand or are you going to twist my words again? :roll:

Using one's personal experience to defeat an argument concerning sth that is beyond personal experience is shaky! This should be common sense!

WE are talking about a nation, not some groups of individuals as you know them in yr life!

[Rilence]

Using one's personal experience to defeat an argument concerning sth that is beyond personal experience is shaky! This should be common sense!

WE are talking about a nation, not some groups of individuals as you know them in yr life!
Okay, fine. Why do you think we regard ourselves as the chosen people, Donger (AKA TOC)? Please tell me.

[hulaku]

Okay, fine. Why do you think we regard ourselves as the chosen people, Donger? Please tell me.

Shuimo is a sensitive person. Call him Tom of Chinap-)

[Shuimo]

Okay, fine. Why do you think we regard ourselves as the chosen people, Donger? Please tell me.


I put this as a serious argument and statement! I just know it!
Now, you said it is wrong!

It is yr turn to defeat it through arguments, not by saying it is untrue and all done!

[Rilence]

I put this as a serious argument and statement! I just know it!
Now, you said it is wrong!

It is yr turn to defeat it through arguments, not by saying it is untrue and all done!
Oh, you just know it. Fvcking brilliant, Donger. Well played.


I already gave my reasoning and you threw it out because it was based on personal experience, remember?

[Shuimo]

Oh, you just know it. Fvcking brilliant, Donger. Well played.


I already gave my reasoning and you threw it out because it was based on personal experience, remember?
I wud restate my point:

Ameircans think themselves as God's chosen people belief while Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to the world!

Very similar value systems!

[Rilence]

I wud restate my point:

Ameircans think themselves as God's chosen people belief while Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to the world!

Very similar value systems!
Now tell me why, Donger. For the love of god, tell me why you think Americans regard themselves as that. You haven't given a reason why.



/facepalm

[Shuimo]

Now tell me why, Donger. For the love of god, tell me why you think Americans regard themselves as that. You haven't given a reason why.



/facepalm
I doubt whther u r really Ameican!
Don't tell me you just came to the US not long ago!

You need to know more about yr own country and its culture and its values!

[Shuimo]

BTW, that observation is not even sth new said by Shuimo!
Sth you dislike doesnt have to be untrue!

[hulaku]

Ameircans think themselves as God's chosen people belief while Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to the world!


Do you have any source for that?

[Shuimo]

BUt I can offer you some clues to figure that out!
American religious traditions! Ameircan Constitution! American polls in such matters!American serious scholarly works on American identity!

[el borracho]

This is exactly why I didn't reply two pages ago. Look what you guys did. :roll:

[Rilence]

I doubt whther u r really Ameican!
Don't tell me you just came to the US not long ago!

You need to know more about yr own country and its culture and its values!
EDIT


Screw it. Good luck with the trolling.

[Shuimo]

But the comparison part is brought by me!

[hulaku]

BUt I can offer you some clues to figure that out!
American religious traditions! Ameircan Constitution! American polls in such matters!American serious scholarly works on American identity!

Can you explain American Religious traditions to us?

[Ordie]

I wud restate my point:

Ameircans think themselves as God's chosen people belief while Chinese regard themselves as Heaven's gift to the world!

Very similar value systems!

I beg to differ.

We are no different than any other humans living in this planet. We do what we need to do in order to survive and have a better life.

What makes America unique is that we come from different countries, with different belief systems, cultures and views.

We also place an enormous value in equality and justice. American tends to identify themselves as middle class regardless of income with a strong belief in fairness.

They value the Constitution and the same time they mistrust government and will act as watchdogs to ensure transparency.

We live in a country with many second chances, life options and the freedom to fail. For example: It's the only country that I know that anyone regardless of income, educational background, and age can walk into a Community College without prerequisites or entrance tests and complete a university degree.

We create new things and make an attempt. If we fail, we learn and start over. We protect our ideas through patents not to deny others, but to force ourselves to create better ideas and products.

We don't live in paradise, we don't have it perfect, we make mistakes, we stumble.

But we have the uncanny ability to pick ourselves up, we don't dwell on history, we adapt, change with the times, and move on.

Our system of governance at least guarantees that no one person, political party, bureaucracy, city or region has a monopoly of power.

[Shuimo]

I beg to differ.

We are no different than any other humans living in this planet. We do what we need to do in order to survive and have a better life.
Yes, fundamentally speaking, we human beings are all the same!
We all long for love and respect and dignity and for a better happier life!
What does differ btw peoples is the ways people use to achieve such ends with beliefs they have evolved over the centuries!

So this world is a colorful one with multi-cultures!


What makes America unique is that we come from different countries, with different belief systems, cultures and views.

This is true!
NY city testifies to that vividly!


We also place an enormous value in equality and justice. American tends to identify themselves as middle class regardless of income with a strong belief in fairness.

This is very good! Unfortunately, USA hasn't evolved into a commie country where equality is one of the defining features!



They value the Constitution and the same time they mistrust government and will act as watchdogs to ensure transparency.

I guess Euporeans share similar views in regards to state-individual relations! After all, you share strong historical and cultural bonds!


We live in a country with many second chances, life options and the freedom to fail. For example: It's the only country that I know that anyone regardless of income, educational background, and age can walk into a Community College without prerequisites or entrance tests and complete a university degree.
That is sth I quite admire about US culture!


We create new things and make an attempt. If we fail, we learn and start over. We protect our ideas through patents not to deny others, but to force ourselves to create better ideas and products.
I guess you are talking about intellectual property rights!
I think this is still a hugely controversial issue about its pros and cons!
We can devote a special thread to discuss that in length!


We don't live in paradise, we don't have it perfect, we make mistakes, we stumble.
That applies to all countries and cultures and persons, doesn't it?



But we have the uncanny ability to pick ourselves up, we don't dwell on history, we adapt, change with the times, and move on.
This is where China and US show marked contrasts!
Chinese wud always like to dwell upon its time-honored history in a spirit to draw lessons from history to better guide our future course!




Our system of governance at least guarantees that no one person, political party, bureaucracy, city or region has a monopoly of power.

I know what you are insinuating to!
I do admit the political systems of China and USA are simply unbridgeable for such yawning gaps, at least in the foreseeable future!