Switzerland campaign to ban minarets.

[Lazy Lob]

Switzerland campaign to ban minarets gathers force.


A Swiss country town has become the focus of a right-wing campaign to ban minarets from all mosques in the country on the grounds that they symbolise ideological opposition to the constitution.


Published: 7:00AM BST 14 Aug 2009

Switzerland's "stop minaret" movement is backed by the powerful ultra-conservative Swiss People's Party, (SVP) which was re-elected in 2007 after mounting an anti-foreigner campaign that was denounced by the United Nations as racist, the Independent reports.

Ulrich Schüler, an SVP parliamentarian and leading member of the anti-minaret movement, said minarets were political rather than religious. "They are symbols of a desire for power, of an Islam which wants to establish a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in our constitution," he told the paper.

The "stop minaret" campaign was launched two years ago, prompting a national debate on the subject. A petition in support of its aims has since been signed by more than 100,000 citizens. Under Swiss law the issue now has to be decided by a national referendum which will be conducted in late November.

However, before then, the "stop minaret" campaign is hoping to create a legal precedent by thwarting construction of a minaret in Langenthal, a provincial town halfway between Bern and Basel.

Thomas Rufener, the town's mayor, said about eight per cent of Langenthal's residents were Muslims. "All the main parties have given their approval for the mosque," he said. The regional canton of Bern has given approval in addition for the construction of a domed mosque. That will stand alongside the planned minaret which will be little more than 30 feet high.

An anti-minaret campaign has now lodged a formal complaint with the canton, claiming that the planned mosque amounts to an "ideological intrusion".

They are hoping to force Bern to rescind its approval for the minaret. "There may be different laws governing this kind of thing in certain part of Paris or Berlin, but we don't want them in Switzerland," Mr Schüler said.

Switzerland is home to a population of about 400,000 Muslims, the majority of whom are Turks, Bosnians and Albanians.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/6025394/Switzerland-campaign-to-ban-minarets-gathers-force.html

[goat89]

:( Not good... I dont like it... I remember that citizens had a vote on whether they could ban foreigners... but this? Thats too much. :(

[2495]

Ulrich Schüler, an SVP parliamentarian and leading member of the anti-minaret movement, said minarets were political rather than religious. "They are symbols of a desire for power, of an Islam which wants to establish a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in our constitution," he told the paper.

Give the man a medal, and where do i sign up to send him some funds? at last, a Politico type with a set of balls to say it how it really is.

[muck]

Give the man a medal, and where do i sign up to send him some funds? at last, a Politico type with a set of balls to say it how it really is.x2!

Moreover, a ban minarets represents by no means a restriction to the freedom of religion.

[Bibite]

X3

Now, just watch those fundamentalists...

[ren0312]

I remember when I went to Lucerne in 2007 there were quite a number on minorities, and quite a number of vendors that were selling to tourists and waiters were Chinese, certainly did not seem that they were being discriinated against by the majority population, the place certainly seemed a lot nicer than from I am from.

[2495]

I go most winters for a bit of high altitude ice, and every ones welcome - the Swiss are some of the nicest people on earth.

No minarets is not life ending, it just means every one is welcome still, and no one has to feel they are under the shadow or in ear shot of any particular religion.

[Octavariable]

Considering the fact that a Minaret is the epitome of ***** envy, I have no objection p-)

[futurepilot2004]

Yeah good idea. Lets knock down every church steeple because they are symbols of a desire for power too.....

[Lazy Lob]

I go most winters for a bit of high altitude ice, and every ones welcome - the Swiss are some of the nicest people on earth.



http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/441/swiss.jpg


Yeah good idea. Lets knock down every church steeple because they are symbols of a desire for power too.....

Are they? Please elaborate.

[futurepilot2004]

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/441/swiss.jpg



Are they? Please elaborate.

THey`re clearly not in the same way that minarets arent!!!

[Octavariable]

THey`re clearly not in the same way that minarets arent!!!

Church spires still have bells in them. if the Muezzin will climb the stairs and call for prayers and not use a microphone and speakers (or a recorded tape for that matter) then I guess you're right.
Once something is no longer needed for it's original use, why build it in the first place?

[hatchet_harry]

don't make it sound like it's already decided. the swiss people will decide in a referendum. the parliament recommends not to accept the initiative. we'll see about the result.

to be honest, it's a non-topic in switzerland, at least in my oppinion. there are, what, about two minarets in switzerland to this day... come on.

there are efforts to install seminars for swiss imams so we don't have to import foreigners (possible extremists). better effect than ban minarets in my oppinion.

[TurkishDefense]

Yeah good idea. Lets knock down every church steeple because they are symbols of a desire for power too.....

http://i27.tinypic.com/2qs2paa.jpg

[2495]

Thats the point - they are tools of domination from a religion built for war and conquest. Show me a bit in the Quaran that says its not all about conquest and turning the whole globe muzzer and i'll eat a rat.

[Pollo Pion]

I completely agree with those who oppose to allow more muslim temples in our countries. Let´s make as the russian when they were asked to allow a new mosque in Moscow, and they answered that the mosque could be built if they could build an orthodox church in Riad (I´m not sure about the exact city they said).

[Panchito12]

X3

Now, just watch those fundamentalists...

Two options: deport them, or shoot them. Either one is fine so they better get with the program quickly or else.......BANG!

[hsh2]

:( Not good... I dont like it... I remember that citizens had a vote on whether they could ban foreigners... but this? Thats too much. :(

We have a direct democracy something the people of Singapore can't relate too, obviously.

Our country, our say. Period.


I go most winters for a bit of high altitude ice, and every ones welcome - the Swiss are some of the nicest people on earth.


Thanks. Which region if you don't mind me asking? I'm always curious when it comes to mountains and stuff, that's where my heart lies:). A solid guess would be Valais since you're British but still...


Yeah good idea. Lets knock down every church steeple because they are symbols of a desire for power too.....

Why would a Christian people knock down down church steeples in their own country?

Why don't you people ever get this? We are NOT on equal terms, nor should we be. This is our country, not theirs, and while they are (quite) welcome to immigrate and CONTRIBUTE and in the process, earn more money than they could in any other country and benefit from all the excellency we have to offer (read: live a better life than they could ANYWHERE else), they are not welcome to change the country my (and the other Swiss people's) numerous generations of ancestors have built up, to their liking.




to be honest, it's a non-topic in switzerland, at least in my oppinion. there are, what, about two minarets in switzerland to this day... come on.

I tend to agree about it being a non topic. However I don't think it's a non issue and probably many voters will say, "Hey, the threat's not imminent, but why not install preemptive measures on the quick, since they're already asking".



there are efforts to install seminars for swiss imams so we don't have to import foreigners (possible extremists). better effect than ban minarets in my oppinion.I'm really not sure if this done any good to be honest. After all we can school Imams all we want, we're not going to change their mindset or world view and we're not going to put their Mosques under surveillance to see what they're preaching anyway. It wouldn't change much if anything.

It's certainly a nicely sounding "heile Welt" feel good idea so many people long for in everyday life, but it's not a solution to a problem.

[Mackie]

there are efforts to install seminars for swiss imams so we don't have to import foreigners (possible extremists). better effect than ban minarets in my oppinion.

Good step. Same story here.
Some states try to introduce an Alevi Islam. Moderate and tolerant

[Wahnsinn]

Thats the point - they are tools of domination from a religion built for war and conquest. Show me a bit in the Quaran that says its not all about conquest and turning the whole globe muzzer and i'll eat a rat.

Nonsense - many religions (e.g. Christianity) are spread by war and conquest and would have taken much longer to reach the parts of the world they are now a major religion in if it were not for war and conquest (South America being a prime example). Christianity is no better (or worse) than Islam.

Holy texts are full of contradictions and passages of which the meaning can be debated and unfortunately, most non Muslims only hear the bad side of things because the media tend to group fundamentalists and normal Muslims together which is not how it works in the real world.

[futurepilot2004]

Two options: deport them, or shoot them. Either one is fine so they better get with the program quickly or else.......BANG!

Are you actually advocating the killing of muslims because of their religion???


Actually, I dont know why Im shocked, 90% of your posts are either anti-muslim,anti-mexicans, anti gay, anti-democrat..... in fact anti pretty much everyone who isnt white,christian, NRA member and diehard republican.

[Panchito12]

Are you actually advocating the killing of muslims because of their religion???.

Fundamentalists don't grow up on love.



Actually, I dont know why Im shocked, 90% of your posts are either anti-muslim,anti-mexicans, anti gay, anti-democrat..... in fact anti pretty much everyone who isnt white,christian, NRA member and diehard republican.

-I'm as tolerant of muslims are they are tolerant of Christian, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus.
-I like Mexicans. Just not Chihuahuas.
-I don't like biggoted gays who are intolerant about views that they don't like. See Prop 8 backlash.
-Democrats...it's embarrasing, but my wife is one of those.
-No membership in NRA, but I do have one in the Navy League.
-Registered independent (Lou Dobbs is my ideal candidate).

I'm shocked at your willingness to generalize incorrectly about me:-(

[Wahnsinn]

-I'm as tolerant of muslims are they are tolerant of Christian, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus.


The thing is, most Muslims are tolerant of other religions however you only ever hear about (and get the point of view of) the ones who hate the West and the Jews etc.

[Weasel]

Ulrich Schüler, an SVP parliamentarian and leading member of the anti-minaret movement, said minarets were political rather than religious. "They are symbols of a desire for power, of an Islam which wants to establish a legal and social order fundamentally contrary to the liberties guaranteed in our constitution," he told the paper.

Self-proclaimed Islam expert, eh?

Is it election time in Switzerland?

[LineDoggie]

after mounting an anti-foreigner campaign that was denounced by the United Nations as racist


So the UN is equally denouncing Saudi Immigration policies, and if say 40,000 Jews wanted to move to Mecca, the UN would equally support that?

Or even Milder, I want to build a Catholic Cathedral in Medina, will I be Killed the first day of construction?

Somehow I dont see the UN having the Balls to speak out about the reverse in Arab countries

I have no issues with Any Religion wanting to practice their faith, but you start your call to Prayer over Loudspeakers in My Neighborhood at 0500 you gonna feel the wrath.

[LineDoggie]

Self-proclaimed Islam expert, eh?

Is it election time in Switzerland? Your saying Sharia Law is in lockstep with the Swiss Constitution?

Or just kneejerking for the anti-establishment?

[hulaku]

Or even Milder, I want to build a Catholic Cathedral in Medina, will I be Killed the first day of construction?


You must be joking.

Non-Muslims are not even allowed into the Muslim holy cities of Mecca and Medina.

Building a Catholic Cathedral:)

[Weasel]

Your saying Sharia Law is in lockstep with the Swiss Constitution?

Or just kneejerking for the anti-establishment?

Don´t know where you read this in my post.

[Mackie]

after mounting an anti-foreigner campaign that was denounced by the United Nations as racist


So the UN is equally denouncing Saudi Immigration policies, and if say 40,000 Jews wanted to move to Mecca, the UN would equally support that?

Or even Milder, I want to build a Catholic Cathedral in Medina, will I be Killed the first day of construction?

Somehow I dont see the UN having the Balls to speak out about the reverse in Arab countries

I have no issues with Any Religion wanting to practice their faith, but you start your call to Prayer over Loudspeakers in My Neighborhood at 0500 you gonna feel the wrath.

Building a Mosque in Vatican? Or Alabama? p-)

[LineDoggie]

You must be joking.

Non-Muslims are not even allowed into the Muslim holy cities of Mecca and Medina.

Building a Catholic Cathedral:) Of course, but the UN denounces Switzerland for wanting to keep its culture, while pretending Vastly more restrictive Arab policies in countries such as Saudi Arabia in this case arent racist. The Penalty for a Non Muslim trying to enter Mecca is imprisonment I believe, correct?

[hulaku]

5 The Penalty for a Non Muslim trying to enter Mecca is imprisonment I believe, correct?

Got this from a source

If a person is caught who is not Muslim and managed to enter Mecca, he or she will be arrested and held in detention. On extensive investigation, the Minister of Interior decides the punishment based on a recommendation of a Shari'a judge. There is no set punishment for this offense. Of course, this dodges the question of a death penalty but as there is no set penalty and the death penalty is so common in Islam, this is a possible outcome..."

[hulaku]

Building a Mosque in Vatican? Or Alabama? p-)

What is the percentage of Muslims in the total population in Vatican?p-)

[Bushranger]

Why don't you people ever get this? We are NOT on equal terms, nor should we be. This is our country, not theirs, and while they are (quite) welcome to immigrate and CONTRIBUTE and in the process, earn more money than they could in any other country and benefit from all the excellency we have to offer (read: live a better life than they could ANYWHERE else), they are not welcome to change the country my (and the other Swiss people's) numerous generations of ancestors have built up, to their liking.

Well said, when is europe going to stop being all PC & appeasing the muslim immigrants, Are they forgeting that europe was built over centuries on christian values not muslim. more than welcome to immigrate & assimilate to the country of there choice, if not dont bother coming, same goes here in Oz. Thats my opinion.

[Bushranger]

What is the percentage of Muslims in the total population in Vatican?p-)


There arent any.

[LineDoggie]

Building a Mosque in Vatican? Or Alabama? p-)
Good Luck in Alabama, likely get flattened in a Hurricane.

IIRC , the 110 Acres it comprises are owned by the church

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/779px-Map_of_Vatican_City.jpg

Where would you propose such a Mosque be built?

[LineDoggie]

What is the percentage of Muslims in the total population in Vatican?p-)
Now, now dont confuse him with silly things like Facts.

He wanted a zinger post and thought he had it

[Ordie]

The US has federal freedom of worship laws that exempts Churches, Mosques, Synagouges etc... from local zoning ordinanaces.

It's not an issue here in the US.

We don't have tensions with the Muslim community because of it.

[TurkishDefense]

Self-proclaimed Islam expert, eh?

Is it election time in Switzerland?

i think so.
but some people are trying to "legalize" the "movement of the 30´s and 40´s".
probably some frustrated workless youngsters.

[Mackie]

Good Luck in Alabama, likely get flattened in a Hurricane.

IIRC , the 110 Acres it comprises are owned by the church

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/779px-Map_of_Vatican_City.jpg

Where would you propose such a Mosque be built?

You mean that would be the reason? A missing place and Hurricans.
But hell I didn't expect more.

[LineDoggie]

The US has federal freedom of worship laws that exempts Churches, Mosques, Synagouges etc... from local zoning ordinanaces.

It's not an issue here in the US.

We don't have tensions with the Muslim community because of it. I disagree with that. I well remember when a Hindu Temple was Firebombed in My Neighborhood by Muslims back in the late 1970's.
And after the Golden Temple in Amritsar was attacked the Hindu Temple here was vandalized in retaliation. We may have legal freedoms, but People still harbor prejudices across the spectrum of religious and non religious.

[Xaito]

European countries have their own culture and I think it's a stigma to have oriental looking mosques build in a christian country.

[Mackie]

What is the percentage of Muslims in the total population in Vatican?p-)

And in Medina?

My intention is that it's a nonsense to discuss about the extrema.
I guess 99.9% of all Christians have no interest in visiting Medina like Muslims are not interested in Vatican (or Alabama^^).

There's no question that there are more Muslim radicals than Christians at the moment. But it's not that lang ago when Christians killed 50% of the European population.

[Mackie]

European countries have their own culture and I think it's a stigma to have oriental looking mosques build in a christian country.

You mean history? Culture isn't a closed book.

[Arsenal]

I disagree with that. I well remember when a Hindu Temple was Firebombed in My Neighborhood by Muslims back in the late 1970's.
And after the Golden Temple in Amritsar was attacked the Hindu Temple here was vandalized in retaliation. We may have legal freedoms, but People still harbor prejudices across the spectrum of religious and non religious.

I believe he may have meant tensions between the Muslim religion and local governments.

[Xaito]

You mean history? Culture isn't a closed book.

I mean the occidental culture, history being a part of it.

[hulaku]

And in Medina?

My intention is that it's a nonsense to discuss about the extrema.
I guess 99.9% of all Christians have no interest in visiting Medina like Muslims are not interested in Vatican (or Alabama^^).


You are right that we cannot discuss on the extremes



There's no question that there are more Muslim radicals than Christians at the moment.


Im sur you know that the Muslim radicals are engaged in conflicts with all the other major religions of the world. There is something diabolically wrong that they are being taught. They seem hell bent to take Islam back through the ages. They are welcome to do it but they should do it in their own countries.



But it's not that lang ago when Christians killed 50% of the European population


Are you refering to WWII?

[hatchet_harry]

Self-proclaimed Islam expert, eh? i just saw that his name is written the wrong way, it's ulrich schlüer. he's on the far right spectrum in swiss politics.

that's him ...and his halberd
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3606/218338392700d89cea23.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3912/140476728f21c780109.jpg
he also made it to the headlines in britain. the independent had an article featuring him the last time we had an initiative about foreigners. the title is quite charming: europe's heart of darkness... (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/switzerland-europes-heart-of-darkness-401619.html)

Is it election time in Switzerland?no. next federal elections are in 2011. but then again, everything works a little bit different here. basically, we have democracy, the real kind p-) in a direct democracy you always have popular/populist proposals. referendums usually have little effect on elections.


Our country, our say. Period.and somehow i don't see this proposition making it on the ballots. but then again, everything's possible. i was wrong on the complementary medicine, just because i assumed the majority of people to be intelligent/rational... we'll see.

what people don't understand: under current law it's quite difficult to build a minaret. there are regulations on height, usage etc.

imho: just leaving it as it is and not bend over for exceptions would be way better than to wake up the OUTRAGE!!! crew.

[Panchito12]

But it's not that lang ago when Christians killed 50% of the European population.

1. Le't be more specific: It was Germans who pretty much took the lead in that endavour.

2. Don't forget that it was not that long ago either that the Spaniards finished kicking the Muslim Arabs back to their desert, that King John III Sobieski of Poland led the forces that stopped the invading Muslim Ottomans at the gates of Vienna, and the Greeks finally removed the yoke of Muslim Ottoman colonialism from around their necks.

[hsh2]

and somehow i don't see this proposition making it on the ballots. but then again, everything's possible. i was wrong on the complementary medicine, just because i assumed the majority of people to be intelligent/rational... we'll see.


oh boy complimentary medicine (what a name)... Siiiiiiiiigh......... Was quite shocked at it myself, especially given that we're a country with a disproportionately big pharma/chemical industry. You can be sure as hell that when push comes to shove (ex Cancer), the Greenies and Waldorfers will be demanding Avastin and stuff rather than herb infusions. Hypocrites.


what people don't understand: under current law it's quite difficult to build a minaret. there are regulations on height, usage etc. I know what the minaret in Konstanz looks like and you can neither get inside (and shout down) nor are there any loudspeakers installed and it's no more than 8 meters high (estimation, it's really not tall at all).

Nonetheless, I really don't think a minaret has it's place in a European country, no more than a big Christian cross would have it's place in Arabia. And I'm sure the good Muslims who are here to start anew and live an accomplished life (how few or many they may be...) will not have a problem with that.




imho: just leaving it as it is and not bend over for exceptions would be way better than to wake up the OUTRAGE!!! crew.I agree in theory but we might aswell not respond to their hissy fits...or even deport them quickly like the Germans did.

20 yrs ago it was the US presence in S Arabia, then it was the Israelis of course the default excuse, then it was the Mohammad Cartoons etc. They (=the potentially or already radical Muslims among us) will always find something.

BTW do we even have a national and global, full time counter terrorist unit?
The French and German sure have, the Italians as well I think. Even the Austrians have one (with which Spiegel TV makes a doco every few yrs:lol:) but do we? Apart from Enzian?

[2495]

1. Le't be more specific: It was Germans who pretty much took the lead in that endavour.

2. Don't forget that it was not that long ago either that the Spaniards finished kicking the Muslim Arabs back to their desert, that King John III Sobieski of Poland led the forces that stopped the invading Muslim Ottomans at the gates of Vienna, and the Greeks finally removed the yoke of Muslim Ottoman colonialism from around their necks.
rofl

I LOL'd.

As for Minarets in Switzerland, I would rather it didn't happen, as I know from the Uk that their dirge like wailing at .... am/pm is fvcking horrendous.

[cltknight]

1. Le't be more specific: It was Germans who pretty much took the lead in that endavour.

2. Don't forget that it was not that long ago either that the Spaniards finished kicking the Muslim Arabs back to their desert, that King John III Sobieski of Poland led the forces that stopped the invading Muslim Ottomans at the gates of Vienna, and the Greeks finally removed the yoke of Muslim Ottoman colonialism from around their necks.


Have you heard of Crusaders, Nazis and Spaniards In The New World:)

You know what they use to call themselves...... good Christians.

[2495]

Have you heard of Crusaders, Nazis and Spaniards In The New World:)

You know what they use to call themselves...... good Christians.

Yeah but unlike islam, Christianity got a grip and stopped killing folks because of some words in an old book, and developed a civilisation and stopped living in the stone age.

If islam had its way, the cave days would be back in a flash.

[cltknight]

oh boy complimentary medicine (what a name)... Siiiiiiiiigh......... Was quite shocked at it myself, especially given that we're a country with a disproportionately big pharma/chemical industry. You can be sure as hell that when push comes to shove (ex Cancer), the Greenies and Waldorfers will be demanding Avastin and stuff rather than herb infusions. Hypocrites.
I know what the minaret in Konstanz looks like and you can neither get inside (and shout down) nor are there any loudspeakers installed and it's no more than 8 meters high (estimation, it's really not tall at all).

Nonetheless, I really don't think a minaret has it's place in a European country, no more than a big Christian cross would have it's place in Arabia. And I'm sure the good Muslims who are here to start anew and live an accomplished life (how few or many they may be...) will not have a problem with that.





You know where these pictures were taken? Oran, Algeria



http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/oran7o10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1711&u=11939012)

http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/oran5w10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1712&u=11939012)

http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/oran4u10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1713&u=11939012)

http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/34944310.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1714&u=11939012)

Waw a Christian cross overlooking a Muslim city, so intolerant.

[Panchito12]

Have you heard of Crusaders, Nazis and Spaniards In The New World:)

You know what they use to call themselves...... good Christians.

1. Crusaders were trying to take back Christian land invaded by Muslims.

2. Nazis and Spaniards (that's what you wrote) never went together to the New World. The Nazis came much later to hide, after the Spaniards had left 100 years before.

[Panchito12]

You know where these pictures were taken? Oran, Algeria



http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/oran7o10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1711&u=11939012)

http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/oran5w10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1712&u=11939012)

http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/oran4u10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1713&u=11939012)

http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/11/93/90/12/34944310.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1714&u=11939012)

What happened to the Christians that used to worship there? Forcibly deported against their will, under the threat of death, in 1962.

[TurkishDefense]

http://i29.tinypic.com/2n0lsp1.jpg

iranian chatami and schlüer,....wtf?

[cltknight]

Yeah but unlike islam, Christianity got a grip and stopped killing folks because of some words in an old book, and developed a civilisation and stopped living in the stone age.

If islam had its way, the cave days would be back in a flash.

Last time i checked Europe was living in the dark ages when Muslims and Jews were flourishing in Europe:)

[Lazy Lob]

You know where these pictures were taken? Oran, Algeria

Waw a Christian cross overlooking a Muslim city, so intolerant.

Pierre Claverie, Bishop of Oran was murdered by Algerian islamists. As well as several monks and nuns back in 1996.

[Panchito12]

Look, the beautiful Hagia Sophia!! It's a Greek Orthodox........never mind, invaded, defaced and now under different management.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6828/hagiasophia.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/i/hagiasophia.jpg/)

[muck]

I for one had something totally different in mind, too: Minarets and traditional islamic architecture don't fit into European cities. Period.

According to German laws, I can't even build a fooking carport on my very own premises without my neighbours having the right to object to my plans, but I'm supposed to silently tolerate a 30 metres tall minaret?

No thanks.

As I've said: To minister in a mosque without a minaret does not harm anybody's right on freedom of religion. To make such claims is utterly ridiculous.

[Panchito12]

Last time i checked Europe was living in the dark ages when Muslims and Jews were flourishing in Europe:)

What were Muslims & Jews doing in Europe? Clearly a long-term invitation was never extended.

Europe has been flourishing for 800 years, who is then living in darkness now?

[cltknight]

1. Crusaders were trying to take back Christian land invaded by Muslims.

2. Nazis and Spaniards (that's what you wrote) never went together to the New World. The Nazis came much later to hide, after the Spaniards had left 100 years before.

:) you are funny. I was talking about two Separate Events. The first one was the Spaniards invading the new world and killing whatever moved in the name of Christ. The second event was Nazis, that after all called Themselves " good christians".

[cltknight]

What were Muslims & Jews doing in Europe? Clearly a long-term invitation was never extended.



Doesn't that sound kind of Racist :)

[Panchito12]

:) you are funny. I was talking about two Separate Events. The first one was the Spaniards invading the new world and killing whatever moved in the name of Christ. Th second event was Nazis, that after all called themThemselves " good christians.

Yeah I know, but your grammar dug you a huge hole!!p-)

[muck]

This thread is so gonna be closed for some of you can't discuss a matter like grown men.
It started with the crusades reference and will end up with a big fat lock on the front door.

[Lazy Lob]

:) you are funny. I was talking about two Separate Events. The first one was the Spaniards invading the new world and killing whatever moved in the name of Christ. The second event was Nazis, that after all called Themselves " good christians".

Nazis called themselves good christians? Bugger that. They had drawn up plans to persecute christian churches. They were pagans.

[hsh2]

You know where these pictures were taken? Oran, Algeria

Waw a Christian cross overlooking a Muslim city, so intolerant.

I'll keep it simple for you. If the Algerians are cool with a Christian cross of that minuscule size overlooking one of their cities from a height and a distance: fantastic for them and I would NOT in anyway be offended if they decided to rip it down.

That doesn't force me however to like or be in favor of a minaret in one my cities.

[SBL]

It's well within Switzerland's rights to dictate the sort of architechture they want in their country.

[cltknight]

Nazis called themselves good christians? Bugger that. They had drawn up plans to persecute christian churches. They were pagans.

Hitler considered himself a Christian, was he a real Christian :) you tell me.

[hsh2]

I for one had something totally different in mind, too: Minarets and traditional islamic architecture don't fit into European cities. Period.

According to German laws, I can't even build a fooking carport on my very own premises without my neighbours having the right to object to my plans, but I'm supposed to silently tolerate a 30 metres tall minaret?

No thanks.

As I've said: To minister in a mosque without a minaret does not harm anybody's right on freedom of religion. To make such claims is utterly ridiculous.

Very good post. There's really not much more to add.

[cltknight]

I'll keep it simple for you. If the Algerians are cool with a Christian cross of that minuscule size overlooking one of their cities from a height and a distance: fantastic for them and I would NOT in anyway be offended if they decided to rip it down.

That doesn't force me however to like or be in favor of a minaret in one my cities.

I never said ZH should follow the Algerian Example, i was just answering a statement of yours.

Nonetheless, I really don't think a minaret has it's place in a European country, no more than a big Christian cross would have it's place in Arabia. And I'm sure the good Muslims who are here to start anew and live an accomplished life (how few or many they may be...) will not have a problem with that.

[Bugaboo]

Last time i checked Europe was living in the dark ages when Muslims and Jews were flourishing in Europe:)

Muslims flourishing in Europe? What were you checking? When they came here to conquer, they were always kicked back.

Jews are important part of European history, at least where I come from.

The thing is the current situation. Were did the progress take place? And when? Progress was possible when we started to be open to thoughts and different opinions. It didn't happend in the lands of Islam. Where would they be today without oil?

[Ordie]

Look, the beautiful Hagia Sophia!! It's a Greek Orthodox........never mind, invaded, defaced and now under different management.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6828/hagiasophia.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/i/hagiasophia.jpg/)

Look what the Spanish did to the Cordoba Mosque. (I guess we're even)
FYI: The Hagia Sophia is no longer a Mosque. It's a museum and some of its mosaics have been uncovered.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Mezquita_de_C%C3%B3rdoba_-_Techo.jpg

[hsh2]

I never said ZH should follow the Algerian Example, i was just answering a statement of yours.

Aha it's the "have" you have a problem with.

Shall we continue to talk in German or French (my native languages)?

And what does the canton of Zurich have to do with anything?

[cltknight]

Muslims flourishing in Europe? What were you checking? When they came here to conquer, they were always kicked back.

Jews are important part of European history, at least where I come from.

The thing is the current situation. Were did the progress take place? And when? Progress was possible when we started to be open to thoughts and different opinions. It didn't happend in the lands of Islam. Where would they be today without oil?

Yes sir, they were in Spain:) and spain is part of Europe.

Let not go into Historical Details, Just remember that not long ago Checkoslovakia was not a spot in heaven:) At least the Škodas looks much better now :)

[Lazy Lob]

Hitler considered himself a Christian, was he a real Christian :) you tell me.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

A reader asks,"Where did the quotes from Hitler's Secret Conversations come from? How do we know that they are accurate?"

Hitler's Secret Conversations is a translation of a document called the "Bormann-Vermerke" or Borrman endorsements. They are a collection of hand written notes made by Martin Bormann who was Hitler's personal secretary during the war. Bormann is known to have been an extraordinarily powerful figure in Nazi Germany and a notorious opponent of Christianity.

http://www.cs.rutgers.edu/pub/soc.religion.christian/faq/hitler

[Wahnsinn]

Nazis called themselves good christians? Bugger that. They had drawn up plans to persecute christian churches. They were pagans.

Gott mit uns ring any bells? Hardly pagan.

Where do people get the idea that Muslims want to live in caves? Most live in houses like you and me and would rather like to keep living in them.

[Bugaboo]

Yes sir, they were in Spain:) and spain is part of Europe.

Yes, they were and Yes it is. Then there was this Reconquista thing.


Let not go into Historical Details, Just remember that not long ago Checkoslovakia was not a spot in heaven:) At least the Škodas looks much better now :)

Why not? I remember the history of my Country rather well. Theres more than one thousand years of it documented, not just the last 40 years. Europe didn't spring into being after WWII, or 230 years ago.

[boreal]

Look what the Spanish did to the Cordoba Mosque. (I guess we're even)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Mezquita_de_C%C3%B3rdoba_-_Techo.jpg


Cordoba Mosque was built over a christian church destroyed by the muslims, at least we kept the building, under the old management, for sure.

[TurkishDefense]

here it is

http://i29.tinypic.com/2v01yk2.jpg



http://i25.tinypic.com/2n71um9.jpg

[cltknight]

Aha it's the "have" you have a problem with.

Shall we continue to talk in German or French (my native languages)?

And what does the canton of Zurich have to do with anything?

Not sure about German, but we can do it in French, Spanish or maybe just stick to English.

As for the ZH, when i was visiting, some cars had the ZH Sticker so i assumed its like the German D or the French F.

[TurkishDefense]

http://i25.tinypic.com/2u6h5c5.jpg
and pope benedict...

this guy is the vatican-leader now

[hatchet_harry]

i fail to see connections between this topic and the nazis or the crusades... goes to prove godwin i guess.

BTW do we even have a national and global, full time counter terrorist unit?
The French and German sure have, the Italians as well I think. Even the Austrians have one (with which Spiegel TV makes a doco every few yrs:lol:) but do we? Apart from Enzian?civilian: not that i know of. there's the military AAD, armee aufklärungs detachement which would probably fall in this category.


As I've said: To minister in a mosque without a minaret does not harm anybody's right on freedom of religion. To make such claims is utterly ridiculous.certainly not. and while we're at it, stop these *#>&?! church bells from ringing at 5 in the morning. tradition or not, they're fvcking annoying.


And what does the canton of Zurich have to do with anything?you must acknowledge it's the most important city in switzerland - period p-)

[boreal]

Someone now is searching a pic of the "good old" Jerusalem Mufti, with his SS boys...

[Arfah]

As so much Nazi gold is Still horded by Switzerland, the concept of banning minarets can only be an extension of nazi policy.

[LineDoggie]

Hitler considered himself a Christian, was he a real Christian :) you tell me.He also considered himself a Vegetarian, And a Better Tactician than OKW, so what?

[LineDoggie]

I for one had something totally different in mind, too: Minarets and traditional islamic architecture don't fit into European cities. Period.

According to German laws, I can't even build a fooking carport on my very own premises without my neighbours having the right to object to my plans, but I'm supposed to silently tolerate a 30 metres tall minaret?

No thanks.

As I've said: To minister in a mosque without a minaret does not harm anybody's right on freedom of religion. To make such claims is utterly ridiculous. There it is..........

/thread

[hulaku]

Someone now is searching a pic of the "good old" Jerusalem Mufti, with his SS boys...

The Mufti was the grandfather or something of Yasir Arafat IIRC

[hsh2]

you know what harry? We might aswell talk about our military. I mean since Spaniards are getting blamed for destroying the foreign mosque built on the soil they have inhabited for roughly 25000yrs and Pope Benedict gets depicted as a Nazi. One can't stoop much lower really.



civilian: not that i know of. there's the military AAD, armee aufklärungs detachement which would probably fall in this category.

Ah yes, true! But is it operational? I mean really operational? I'd be quite interested to know by whom/with whom they have (been trained). In the Swiss press there was the talk of them being trained by Americans (and not the Germans, British or French). Which would mean what exactly? I mean we're not a "priority" defense partner for the US.

Besides wouldn't there be a political problem if we sent the AAD in another country? Pretty sure even Germany has that problem with their SF, therefore they use the GSG9 (just recently: Egypt. Massive operation which was peacefully resolved at the end).



you must acknowledge it's the most important city in switzerland - period p-)Certainly more important than Bern. But Basel and Geneva? Hmmm


Thx to the usual suspects for ruining yet another thread.

[TurkishDefense]

Switzerland campaign to ban minarets gathers force.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/6025394/Switzerland-campaign-to-ban-minarets-gathers-force.html

http://i25.tinypic.com/11l1w0k.jpg

[hsh2]

Not sure about German, but we can do it in French, Spanish or maybe just stick to English.

As for the ZH, when i was visiting, some cars had the ZH Sticker so i assumed its like the German D or the French F.

Ca n'a rien avoir avec le pays, du moins pas chez nous. En Suisse on a seulement et uniquement:

1) les initiales de son canton ZH pour Zurich, BS pour Bale Ville, GR pour les Grisons etc
2) le blason de son canton. par ex pour St Gall ca serait une hache entouree d'un tonneau (comme pour le vin) sur un fond vert.

Par contre si on veut, on peut encore rajouter un auto collant CH, mais c'est pas nécessaire ou obligatoire du tout.

Voila, c'est tout ce qu'il y'a savoir sur nos plaques d'immatriculation.

[LineDoggie]

http://i25.tinypic.com/2u6h5c5.jpg
and pope benedict...

this guy is the vatican-leader now You do realize you just opened a whole spate of pictures of the Grand Mufti, the 13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar, Caucasian Muslim legion, 162nd Turkoman Divisionen, , the Arabian Legion, etc. You do realize that all german Citizens after july 20th 1944 had to give that salute at official functions. Even the Military was forced to give up the traditional salute.

[2495]

http://i25.tinypic.com/11l1w0k.jpg

To be honest, they got every right to protest against a political ideology that wants to eradicate their freedoms forever under the guise of 'one Ummah'.

It starts with mosques and minerets, then it gets creeping inwards till they want whole swathes of a countrys laws changed to suite them.. just look at UK, germany, France....

[muck]

http://i25.tinypic.com/11l1w0k.jpgSo what? These pricks are members of the German NPD party, trying to adopt positions of the democratic right wing of Germany.

Like their spiritual fathers, the NPD befriends with radical Islamism as it is likewise opposed to Jewry. NPD chairman Udo Voigt said devout Muslims were the Aryans of the Middle East.

[timetraveller]

What is a Minaret ?

[SBL]

What is a Minaret ?
Use google, knucklehead.

[cltknight]

Ca n'a rien avoir avec le pays, du moins pas chez nous. En Suisse on a seulement et uniquement:

1) les initiales de son canton ZH pour Zurich, BS pour Bale Ville, GR pour les Grisons etc
2) le blason de son canton. par ex pour St Gall ca serait une hache entouree d'un tonneau (comme pour le vin) sur un fond vert.

Par contre si on veut, on peut encore rajouter un auto collant CH, mais c'est pas nécessaire ou obligatoire du tout.

Voila, c'est tout ce qu'il y'a savoir sur nos plaques d'immatriculation.

Merci pour tes explications

[hatchet_harry]

As so much Nazi gold is Still horded by Switzerland, the concept of banning minarets can only be an extension of nazi policy.how could i miss out on that one :cantbeli:thanks good sir, now it all makes sense.


you know what harry? We might aswell talk about our military. about the aad, i'm not a specialist for al questions regarding sof. gotta ask the "fanboys" for more details. what i know is that they're working with instructors of the grenkdo and fsch aufkl. i don't know about foreign instructors, but if you will the "long line extraction" they showed on some pictures has an american touch to it. but that's just me talking out of my ass.

they use similar weapons as the rest of the army. for vehicles they received german wolfs, as used by the ksk. there are quite nice photos on mp.net from isone (demo in veru) walenstadt and lago maggiore.

Certainly more important than Bern. But Basel and Genevatheres ABSOLUTELY no doubt about it :-P


There it is..........

/threadi kinda agree, i'm not keen on minarets either. but i don't want "minarets are forbidden" written in the constitution. you're american, would you like the amendments to be: free speech, possesion of arms, (prohibition of alcohol), abolition of slavery and minarets?

thinking about all that stuff: it's actually good we have a say about such questions. i think (hope) that in switzerland, because of it's democratic tradition, extremists of all kind have a harder stay. believe me: this whole minaret thing is no big deal, really isnt.

it always amazes me how people feel left out of the loop in other countries (think lisbon treatis, us health care) and how they tend to go to the extremes.

[SBL]

i kinda agree, i'm not keen on minarets either. but i don't want "minarets are forbidden" written in the constitution. you're american, would you like the amendments to be: free speech, possesion of arms, (prohibition of alcohol), abolition of slavery and minarets?

In the intrest of preserving archetechtual and cultural heritage, I wouldn't mind. In a small, historic nation like Switzerland, it would make sense to have it in the constitution- it's a matter central to the Swiss national identity.

[hatchet_harry]

So what? These pricks are members of the German NPD party, trying to adopt positions of the democratic right wing of Germany.

Like their spiritual fathers, the NPD befriends with radical Islamism as it is likewise opposed to Jewry. NPD chairman Udo Voigt said devout Muslims were the Aryans of the Middle East.has the npd jumped on the anti minaret train?

i know they used to copy the svp's "sheep-posters". they were not amused.

[Euroamerican]

You do realize you just opened a whole spate of pictures of the Grand Mufti, the 13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar, Caucasian Muslim legion, 162nd Turkoman Divisionen, , the Arabian Legion, etc. You do realize that all german Citizens after july 20th 1944 had to give that salute at official functions. Even the Military was forced to give up the traditional salute.

That may be a really misleading photograph. WHY is is cropped so tight on the right? He may have been givign a benediction when photographed, which can be done with either two hands or one. I saw a priest at an Episcopalian church funeral hold out the right hand, palm down over a casket while saying a prayer over the decease person just last week.

The other photosgraphs aren't very pleasant, but you know that people had a habit of getting sent to the K-lagers when they didn't do what the Nazis wanted them to.

[TurkishDefense]

he was great,..

http://i25.tinypic.com/332a1cj.jpg

[cltknight]

he was great,..

http://i25.tinypic.com/332a1cj.jpg

X2 all day long

[Connaught Ranger]

What is a Minaret ?


Connaught Ranger rofl

[muck]

has the npd jumped on the anti minaret train? Like I said...

But usually, they're fine with Muslims and Islam as a whole. It should be mentioned at this point that the NPD maintains good relations with muslim Neonazi groups in Germany (yes, they do exist).

[TurkishDefense]

the NPD maintains good relations with muslim Neonazi groups in Germany (yes, they do exist).

can you prove it?

1. if you can: what are they doing ? praising to lord in a mosque?

2. if you cant: whats your point?

[TallGuy]

There's no way I'd want minarets here. The Icelandic Muslims applied for a 5000 sq.m. property in Reykjavik for a new mosque, even though there are only 402 registered Muslims in the country. The city council still hasn't given them an answer and it's been in the system for more than 5 years. The Muslims already have a place of worship which in some office building, IIRC.

Most people I know don't want a mosque here...

[muck]

can you prove it?

1. if you can: what are they doing ? praising to lord in a mosque?

2. if you cant: whats your point?Link (http://www.bpb.de/themen/YN4KP6,0,0,Das_Verh%E4ltnis_von_Islamisten_und_Rechtsextremisten.html)
(In German; The BPB is the Federal Office for Civic Education).

What they do is basically to jointly oppose laws and order of the Federal Republic of Germany and spread hatred against Jewry and Zionism.

Their main partner is Hizb ut-Tahrir.

The question is, what's your freaking point? Why do you suggest I could have made this up? Does a cooperation between Neonazis and Islamists really seem that improbable?

[2495]

Neonazis and islamists in the USA work hand in glove. Thye both hate the idea of black and white mixing, and hate the Jews... so they get together and thrash out a deal.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2596/rockwellatnationofislam.jpg

[TallGuy]

^^

The mother of Iceland's richest man was once married to George Rockwell...

[cltknight]

Neonazis and islamists in the USA work hand in glove. Thye both hate the idea of black and white mixing, and hate the Jews... so they get together and thrash out a deal.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2596/rockwellatnationofislam.jpg

Any sources? or just being a A bigot:)

[muck]

Any sources? or just being a A bigot:)Or maybe you would just stop being such a clown and did some research on your own?

[Ameen]

Neonazis and islamists in the USA work hand in glove. Thye both hate the idea of black and white mixing, and hate the Jews... so they get together and thrash out a deal.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/2596/rockwellatnationofislam.jpg

Are you a clown?

Seriously where are you getting this nonsense?

[cltknight]

Or maybe you would just stop being such a clown and did some research on your own?


Really:)So he comes up with the scoop, and i am the one who is supposed to find a source, how convenient.

[TurkishDefense]

Link (http://www.bpb.de/themen/YN4KP6,0,0,Das_Verh%E4ltnis_von_Islamisten_und_Rechtsextremisten.html)
(In German; The BPB is the Federal Office for Civic Education).

What they do is basically to jointly oppose laws and order of the Federal Republic of Germany and spread hatred against Jewry and Zionism.

Their main partner is Hizb ut-Tahrir.

The question is, what's your freaking point? Why do you suggest I could have made this up? Does a cooperation between Neonazis and Islamists really seem that improbable?

what a wack link, only thing i saw: "german neo-nazis"..

do you know fritz gelowicz or daniel schneider?

http://i28.tinypic.com/k3vsro.jpghttp://i30.tinypic.com/n4i0ly.jpg

the german terrorists? saualand cell

[cltknight]

Are you a clown?

Seriously where are you getting this nonsense?

Clowns are usually smart and funny:) the word is bigot, which is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own religion, political party, organization, belief, or opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance.

[muck]

what a wack link, only thing i saw: "german neo-nazis"..Oh well...What a terrific path is this discussion going.

The first few lines of this article read:

Bekannte Mitglieder der NPD nahmen an einer Tagung der "Hizb at-Tahrir" teil. Im Anschluss gab ein Sprecher dieser islamistischen Organisation dem Parteiorgan "Deutsche Stimme" ein langes Interview.

Well-known members of the NPD took part in a conference of the "Hizb ut-Tahrir". Subsequently, a spokesperson of this islamist organization gave a long interview to "German Voice", the party's organ.

I can't be arsed to translate more of it because honestly, I don't care at all if you regard this source - which is an official dossier of the German government for God's green earth - as trustworthy or not.

do you know fritz gelowicz or daniel schneider?Yes, but what have they got to do with Neonazism or the issue being discussed by us?

Really:)So he comes up with the scoop, and i am the one who is supposed to find a source, how convenient.Yes. Because grown men don't always yell "source! source! source!" but try to argue properly.

Clowns are usually smart and funny:) the word is bigot, which is a person who is obstinately and irrationally, often intolerantly, devoted to his or her own religion, political party, organization, belief, or opinion, especially one who regards or treats those of differing devotion with hatred and intolerance.So German Neonazis and islamists make common cause with each other because they're united in hatred against the Jews and so on - why shouldn't that be the case in the United States or elsewhere just as well?

[OrangeWolf]

It is the same all over Europe. Sure they will hate Arabs or Persians or Turks as an ethnic group amongst them (the whites) in their natural homeland (Europe). But besides that they support either pan-Arab nationalism or political Islam, which can be seen through the signs they wear. Not to mention them flirting with the Mullah regime in Iran, and it goes the other way around too. Holocaust deniers are most welcome in Iran under the Mullah regime. Heck some even support Chavez.

They will have a million arguments to support a weird mix of places: "Palestine", Iran's mullah regime, Hezbollah, Chavez. But basically if you hate the USA and Jews you're a nice guy, in case you're not white, you're still a nice guy as long as you are not in Europe.

Most neo-Nazis are also violently against pan-Atlantic relationships, often supporting over-protectionist policies like Socialists do.

Heck at one point they even turned up with Osama Bin Laden t-Shirts. Actually, if you make to pictures of Neo-Nazi demonstraters on the right and International Socialist activists on the left you'd have a pretty difficult "find the differences" game. Of course they have different values, especially about race, but fiscally speaking and policy-wise with regards to the USA and Israel there hardly is any.

Some minarets are amazingly beautiful structures, but I'd rather not have them in my backyard, I don't need a Wahabist-financed freak-show which claims to be "building bridges" and do everything to be "moderate" but inside their hate-barracks scream about killing homo******s and recruiting fanatics to go and shout hezbollah, hamas, nasrallah on our streets: it has already happened.

[cltknight]

Yes. Because grown men don't always yell "source! source! source!" but try to argue properly.

Really:) so asking for a source is too much now:) You are telling me that grown man can talk out of their A$$ES and if somebody ask for a source to what they are advancing, they PITCH A FIT

As for arguing properly, let me tell you something:) when you argue you with someone, you are trying to advance your point of view through facts ( proven facts with sources) not talking out of your A$$ and expect me to take your Bull$hit as a proven fact.

[Elbs]

I'm sure it would be just wonderful to wake up at 5 AM to the wailing and chanting by the faithful blasting from some loudspeakers.


/sarcasm

[2495]

Any sources? or just being a A bigot:)

Here, have a read.






Strange Bedfellows
Some American Black Muslims make common cause with domestic neo-Nazis and foreign Muslim extremists

In 1961, Elijah Muhammad, founder of the black supremacist Nation of Islam, met with Ku Klux Klan leaders at the Magnolia Hall in Atlanta. Although they had different ideas about the skin color of the master race, they shared the belief that blacks and whites should stay separate. The following year, Muhammad invited American Nazi Party chief George Lincoln Rockwell to address a Nation convention in Chicago, even though Rockwell had often called blacks "the lowest scum of humanity." Flanked by a dozen storm troopers in swastika armbands, Rockwell told an audience of 5,000 Nation devotees that he was "proud to stand here before black men. " Elijah Muhammad is the Adolf Hitler of the black man."

Sporadic contacts between Black Muslims and white supremacists continued after Louis Farrakhan set up his own branch of the Nation of Islam in 1975. Klan leader Tom Metzger was so impressed with Farrakhan's anti-Semitic bombast that he donated $100 to the Nation after a Farrakhan rally in Los Angeles in September 1985. A month later, Metzger and 200 other white supremacists from the United States and Canada gathered on a farm about 50 miles west of Detroit, where they pledged their support for the Nation of Islam. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," explained Art Jones, a neo-Nazi militant from Chicago. "I salute Louis Farrakhan and anyone else who stands up against the Jews."

The Nation's contacts with non-black extremists has not been limited to domestic neo-Nazis and Klansmen. During his international travels, Farrakhan has been officially welcomed in a number of countries, including several repressive Arab states. The Final Call, Farrakhan's newspaper, describes one such globetrotting expedition in 1986, when he visited Libya for discussions with Col. Muammar Ghaddafi, who had given Farrakhan a $5 million interest-free loan the previous year. After Libya, Farrakhan ventured to Jeddah, where he conferred with top Saudi Arabian officials before paying a courtesy call to Idi Amin, the exiled Ugandan despot. Farrakhan was also warmly received by General Zia-ul-Huq, the military dictator of Pakistan, whose abysmal human rights record coincided with efforts to impose a harsh Islamic fundamentalist regime in his country.


http://www.politicalwrinkles.com/off-topic/4304-strange-bedfellows-american-nazi-party-nation-islam.html

It must be painful to be so dumb as to think that being worldly wise is bigoted. I feel sorry for you actually, because I would feel very dumb and ill educated if my world view was so shallow and so blinkered.

[hsh2]

It must be painful to be so dumb as to think that being worldly wise is bigoted.

Excellent!

But you know what's my all time favorite quote or saying?

[2495]

not talking out of your A$$ and expect me to take your Bull$hit as a proven fact.

Ouch. You must be feeling really dumb right about now mouthy boy. Need another source? lol.

[2495]

Excellent!

But you know what's my all time favorite quote or saying?

Please do enlighten me. I am all ears.

[cltknight]

I am no expert in Islam but i do know from many Muslims that Louis Farrakhan has nothing to do with Islam. Farrakhan is just another racist and bigot. Is that all you were able to come up with, nice try.

[cltknight]

Excellent!

But you know what's my all time favorite quote or saying?

Let me guess


The Bergier Commission, which was set up in 1996 by the Swiss parliament to examine Swiss relations with the Axis powers, claims that the Swiss authorities had secret dealings with Nazi Germany which helped to prolong the second world war.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1887789.stm

[Lazy Lob]

Gott mit uns ring any bells?

Yes it does. But it was not Nazi. It was first used by the Prussians in the 17th century then the Germans had it on their helmets in WWI.

The Wehrmacht in WWII had it on their belt buckles but it was not Nazi. The SS used Meine Ehre heißt Treue. Cork your arse mate.

[2495]

Let me guess



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1887789.stm

You have got to be the dumbest most blinkered person on the Internet. First you call me out as a bvllsh1tter and get proven very wrong, now you start on a Swiss guy who is actually very well educated and worldly wise?

Blinkered? or special needs?

[hsh2]

Let me guess



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1887789.stm


LOL My national pride has been shattered. Mooommmy waaaaaaa

Seriously is that all you have to offer?

Besides my favorite sayings ever are:

Deutschland über alles and Meine Ehre heisst Treue, but I'm sure you deduced that already:cantbeli:


Dude you're BORING...

[cltknight]

You have got to be the dumbest most blinkered person on the Internet. First you call me out as a bvllsh1tter and get proven very wrong, now you start on a Swiss guy who is actually very well educated and worldly wise?

Blinkered? or special needs?

Me proven wrong:) Again, Farakhan has nothing to do with Islam, even Daniel Pipes( Ultra conservative) said it.


But this is wrong. Louis Farrakhan is not a Muslim; Islam says nothing about blacks voting in U.S. elections. Instead, Farrakhan subscribes to an American black religion founded in Detroit 50 years ago. His faith is not recognized as Islamic by real Muslims, and his teachings bear almost no resemblance to those of Islam. Farrakhan is as much a Muslim as the Shriner is an Arab.


Elijah Muhammad's main political activities had nothing to do with Islam; not his withdrawal from the U.S. electoral process, not his call for a separate state for blacks, not his emphasis on black economic self-sufficiency, and not his creation of a black paramilitary force, the Fruit of Islam.

http://www.danielpipes.org/167/louis-farrakhan-is-not-a-muslim

Have i got my point across yet?

[goat89]

We have a direct democracy something the people of Singapore can't relate too, obviously.
Our country, our say. Period.

You mock my people one more time based on what I, not my country or people, felt, I WILL report you.
But yes, its your country, your say, which I have to and must respect.

[hsh2]

You mock my people one more time based on what I, not my country or people, felt, I WILL report you.
But yes, its your country, your say, which I have to and must respect.

Mock? You're serious?

Where did I mock anyone. Please quote me.

And go ahead and report me if you want.

[goat89]

Mock? You're serious?

Where did I mock anyone. Please quote me.

And go ahead and report me if you want.
Page 1 bro. Read what you wrote.
Just a warning. OBVIOUSLY.

[hsh2]

Page 1 bro. Read what you wrote.
Just a warning. OBVIOUSLY.

I'm asking you to quote me.

Again, where did I mock anyone? Please quote me.

It's a matter of 10 seconds...

[goat89]

I'm asking you to quote me.

Again, where did I mock anyone? Please quote me.

It's a matter of 10 seconds...
We have a direct democracy something the people of Singapore can't relate too, obviously.
Our country, our say. Period.

Does that help. It MIGHT be the way you wrote it, I perceived it as a mocking stance for writing what I felt. After all, I am studying overseas and have different 'POV'.

[2495]

Ahhh... he found it for you.

I still say that it should never be given the go ahead. Look at the travesties in the UK.

[hsh2]

We have a direct democracy something the people of Singapore can't relate too, obviously.
Our country, our say. Period.

Does that help. It MIGHT be the way you wrote it, I perceived it as a mocking stance for writing what I felt. After all, I am studying overseas and have different 'POV'.

Explain me how the people of Singapore can relate to our form of government and history from which our numerous freedoms derive?

We can own full autos legally, you can't even own a .22. We have a direct democracy and have the right to Volksinitiativen, you have an autocrat.

etc

Being insulted for me saying that you cant relate to our form of government and everything that entails, is quite surreal.

BTW as I said, if you want to report me please go ahead.

[cltknight]

LOL My national pride has been shattered. Mooommmy waaaaaaa

Seriously is that all you have to offer?

Besides my favorite sayings ever are:

Deutschland über alles and Meine Ehre heisst Treue, but I'm sure you deduced that already:cantbeli:


Dude you're BORING...

I am not sure about the translation but is it something like "Germany over all and my honour is called loyalty"
And your point is? Germany over all? t'es un petit rigolo toi.

Sorry my German in not good, even though my ex was German but i never liked that language, maybe because My Grand Father was almost killed by the Germans iN WW2, i don't know.

You need to grow up and get a grip, There is no such thing as Germany over all. Never was and will never will be :)

[hsh2]

I am sure about the translation but is it something like "Germany over all and my honour is called loyalty"
And your point is? Germany over all? t'es un petit rigolo toi.

Sorry my German in not good, even though my ex was German but i never liked that language, maybe because My Grand Father was almost killed by the Germans iN WW2, i don't know.

You need to grow up and get a grip, There is no such thing as Germany over all. Never was and will never be :)

You MORON!rofl I was being sarcastic hence my:cantbeli:and phrasing.

Oh boy...Hopefully summer vacations are soon over...

[Elbs]

I am not sure about the translation but is it something like "Germany over all and my honour is called loyalty"
And your point is? Germany over all? t'es un petit rigolo toi.

Sorry my German in not good, even though my ex was German but i never liked that language, maybe because My Grand Father was almost killed by the Germans iN WW2, i don't know.

You need to grow up and get a grip, There is no such thing as Germany over all. Never was and will never will be :)

Dear god man, have you ever heard of sarcasm? :roll::roll:

[cltknight]

You MORON!rofl I was being sarcastic hence my:cantbeli:and phrasing.

Oh boy...Hopefully summer vacations are soon over...

: As i said i don't speak German:) there is no need to be rude about it, i did not disrespect you and i expect the same courtesy.

[hsh2]

: As i said i don't speak freaking German:) there is no need to be rude about it, i did not disrespect you and i expect the same courtesy.

German has nothing to do with it. My phrasing was in english...

So goat89; are you still there?

[cltknight]

Dear god man, have you ever heard of sarcasm? :roll::roll:

Sarcasm in English not In fR$%%& German. and there is a thing people use when they are sarcastic

"sarcasm"

[2495]

: As i said i don't speak German:) there is no need to be rude about it, i did not disrespect you and i expect the same courtesy.

But your happy to call people bvll sh1tters on the boards? and cannot be man enough to apologise when called to the point by links and proof?

:cantbeli:

[goat89]

Explain me how the people of Singapore can relate to our form of government and history from which our numerous freedoms derive?
We can own full autos legally, you can't even own a .22. We have a direct democracy and have the right to Volksinitiativen, you have an autocrat.
etc
Being insulted for me saying that you cant relate to our form of government and everything that entails, is quite surreal.

BTW as I said, if you want to report me please go ahead.

What does autocrat have to do with religion? Racial harmony does, and from what I feel and having been exposed to religions back home and here in S'pore, I don't agree. I plainly feel that if it does not hinder anything or anyone, why take it down? I cant relate???? WTF seriously, I am NOT RELATING! I have no intention of insulting the Swiss gov, as it is their country. A GREAT country I might add, would love to go again. The canton system is greatly studied by students here in their Social Studies classes. My words cant change anything, but I wish to plainly voice my thoughts.

And please don't bring in the car and gun issue here. Seriously, wats the big deal in buying a gun? WTF man. The gun is not my life. I prefer us civvies BACK HOME not to have a gun for safety reasons. It has worked VERY well and I am proud and happy with it. Our cars? Our cars are the most expensive in the world due to our policy of pollution. Besides, S'pore is bloody small, we don't cars clogging up the damn road. >< The Certificate of Entitlement (COE) helps limit the cars on the road for that reason, especially when we have to bid for it.

And the warning is a warning, I am not going to report you, unless you cross the line, which you havent of course. Not worth it. Besides, MP.net is a great place for everyone to debate and get info from.

PS: Sorry, still there. I type slow. ><

[cltknight]

Deutschland über alles and Meine Ehre heisst Treue, but I'm sure you deduced that already

That's what you wrote, how am i supposed to know

[Elbs]

I'm not even going to try. Cltknight, come back when you have something to offer to the discussion.

Switzerland should have the ultimate say in what goes on inside her borders. It has traditions and norms that are the result of hundreds of years of history and culture. When someone chooses to live in a foreign country, these should be respected. If you don't like it, feel free to GTFO

[hsh2]

Sarcasm in English not In fR$%%& German. and there is a thing people use when they are sarcastic

"sarcasm"
Again what does German have do with anything? My PHRASING and :cantbeli:weren't in English...only the 2 EVIDENT Nazi sayings were.

But from now on I'll use a "sarcasm" tag.

[Macs.]

You need to grow up and get a grip, There is no such thing as Germany over all. Never was and will never will be :)

You don't know what this sentence stands for, so maybe you should just shut up for once and for all. Because all you did in this thread is look like a total ****.

[cltknight]

But your happy to call people bvll sh1tters on the boards? and cannot be man enough to apologise when called to the point by links and proof?

:cantbeli:

What part of my article you did not get, Farakhan is not a Muslim:) Do you know Daniel pipes? Trust me, he is not a big supporter of Islam or Muslims.

[tercio67]

Deutschland über alles and Meine Ehre heisst Treue, but I'm sure you deduced that already

That's what you wrote, how am i supposed to know

Video, audio, disco? p-)

It is Latin; I see, I hear, I learn

[goat89]

I'm not even going to try. Cltknight, come back when you have something to offer to the discussion.

Switzerland should have the ultimate say in what goes on inside her borders. It has traditions and norms that are the result of hundreds of years of history and culture. When someone chooses to live in a foreign country, these should be respected. If you don't like it, feel free to GTFO
I like what you say, 'cept the last part. I think we should debate on it, pros and cons, academic style. Helps creative juices flow man, esp for me when I am in UNI and cant think sh*t to say in tutorials after a 3 hour lecture. :D p-)

[cltknight]

You don't know what this sentence stands for, so maybe you should just shut up for once and for all. Because all you did in this thread is look like a total ****.

How about you STF.

[Elbs]

How about you STF.

Oh no you didn't... Prepare to reap the GERMAN WHIRLWIND!

[hsh2]

What does autocrat have to do with religion? Racial harmony does, and from what I feel and having been exposed to religions back home and here in S'pore, I don't agree. I plainly feel that if it does not hinder anything or anyone, why take it down? I cant relate???? WTF seriously, I am NOT RELATING! I have no intention of insulting the Swiss gov, as it is their country. A GREAT country I might add, would love to go again. The canton system is greatly studied by students here in their Social Studies classes. My words cant change anything, but I wish to plainly voice my thoughts.


Ehm yeah ok and thx for the little compliment but what exactly does it have to do with our discussion? I'm honestly starting to loose the string of it as we say in French.

Why shouldnt WE do what we please in regards to ethnic group X or Y which is on our soil, live on our tax francs and is here only because of our benevolence and contribute nothing to us at all?

Unlike Singaporeans we are a FREE people, that's the whole difference. WE (not the EU or an autocrat) decide what's right for us and basta.

[2495]

What part of my article you did not get, Farakhan is not a Muslim:) Do you know Daniel pipes? Trust me, he is not a big supporter of Islam or Muslims.

he read the Quaran, prayed five times daily, went to Mecca . . . .yeah, some Christian he sure was.

[2495]

What part of my article you did not get, Farakhan is not a Muslim:) Do you know Daniel pipes? Trust me, he is not a big supporter of Islam or Muslims.


here read this too.
http://www.noi.org/mlfbio.htm








http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/malcolmx_banner1.gif (http://store.finalcall.com/media/malcolmx/)








Bio Sketch of The Honorable
Minister Louis Farrakhan
National Representative of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and The Nation of Islam

The Nation of Islam under the leadership of the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan is the catalyst for the growth and development of Islam in America. Founded in 1930 by Master Fard Muhammad and led to prominence from 1934 to 1975 by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/elijah_muhammad_history.htm), the Nation of Islam continues to positively impact the quality of life in America.

[cltknight]

You are not even worth it :)

[Elbs]

I like what you say, 'cept the last part. I think we should debate on it, pros and cons, academic style.

I understand that debate is useful and constructive at times. Let's put it this way:

I enjoy eating pork ribs and greasy pork sandwiches, I enjoy drinking beer and Irish Car Bombs, I enjoy being able to go to a club and pick up a hot chick, and I enjoy going to the beach and watching said hot chicks.

Now if someone comes to my town, and starts asking for a ban on pork products, a ban on alcohol, a law calling for women to cover up, etc. I'll be angry.

Granted this is an extreme case, but the thing with the minarets is simple to me: minarets are not essential to Muslim worship. The Swiss (might) not want them in their cities. Switzerland belongs to the Swiss. Deal closed.

[2495]

I enjoy drinking beer and Irish Car Bombs,

.

Elbs, was this the mother of all freudian slips?

[Elbs]

Elbs, was this the mother of all freudian slips?

http://www.drinksmixer.com/drink7774.html
Guinness + Bailey's + whiskey

The name is a bit so-so :oops:

[goat89]

Ehm yeah ok and thx for the little compliment but what exactly does it have to do with our discussion? I'm honestly starting to loose the string of it as we say in French.

Why shouldnt WE do what we please in regards to ethnic group X or Y which is on our soil, live on our tax francs and is here only because of our benevolence and contribute nothing to us at all?

Unlike Singaporeans we are a FREE people, that's the whole difference. WE (not the EU or an autocrat) decide what's right for us and basta.

Contribute nothing? U mean all of them are refugees? I am pretty sure they contribute through the economy through tertiary services where most people would not want to do. Freedom does not necessarily equate a respect for religion and ethnicity. When a 'large' minority is evident in a country, the gov should understand their needs and view, thought not necessarily nod their heads and say yes to everything. However, it is another country after all. Reminds me of that hijab? fiasco in France?

And LOL my 3rd party stuff is there for clarification and understanding. So you get what I am thinking and building upon.

[goat89]

http://www.drinksmixer.com/drink7774.html
Guinness + Bailey's + whiskey

The name is a bit so-so :oops:
O f*ck yeah, 1st shots I ever tried!!! LOVED IT!!!!!!!

[cltknight]

I understand that debate is useful and constructive at times. Let's put it this way:

I enjoy eating pork ribs and greasy pork sandwiches, I enjoy drinking beer and Irish Car Bombs, I enjoy being able to go to a club and pick up a hot chick, and I enjoy going to the beach and watching said hot chicks.

Now if someone comes to my town, and starts asking for a ban on pork products, a ban on alcohol, a law calling for women to cover up, etc. I'll be angry.

Granted this is an extreme case, but the thing with the minarets is simple to me: minarets are not essential to Muslim worship. The Swiss (might) not want them in their cities. Switzerland belongs to the Swiss. Deal closed.

I have no problem with your analogy, I just did not like some bigoted comments from some members.

[2495]

I have no problem with your analogy, I just did not like some bigoted comments from some members.


Solid proof is not bigotry. You really need to go back to school if you think that is the case.

[goat89]

I understand that debate is useful and constructive at times. Let's put it this way:

I enjoy eating pork ribs and greasy pork sandwiches, I enjoy drinking beer and Irish Car Bombs, I enjoy being able to go to a club and pick up a hot chick, and I enjoy going to the beach and watching said hot chicks.

Now if someone comes to my town, and starts asking for a ban on pork products, a ban on alcohol, a law calling for women to cover up, etc. I'll be angry.

Granted this is an extreme case, but the thing with the minarets is simple to me: minarets are not essential to Muslim worship. The Swiss (might) not want them in their cities. Switzerland belongs to the Swiss. Deal closed.
*Talks in ignorant tone*
A beach? Ze Swiss has no beach! They are landlocked!
*Ignorant tone off* :D

But yes, I would be pissed too. Luckily nothing of that sort has ever happened back home. Closest thing was not a religion matter, but democracy matter, ><

[cltknight]

Solid proof is not bigotry. You really need to go back to school if you think that is the case.

Again, go read the Daniel pipes article i posted:)

[hsh2]

Contribute nothing? U mean all of them are refugees? I am pretty sure they contribute through the economy through tertiary services where most people would not want to do. Freedom does not necessarily equate a respect for religion and ethnicity. When a 'large' minority is evident in a country, the gov should understand their needs and view, thought not necessarily nod their heads and say yes to everything. However, it is another country after all. Reminds me of that hijab? fiasco in France?

And LOL my 3rd party stuff is there for clarification and understanding. So you get what I am thinking and building upon.

Dude you're clueless. You don't know because of whom we're talking about such initiatives. It's not because of Turks, and certainly not because of Iberians-Italians, Tamils, Tibetans etc. Those are all well integrated.

[goat89]

Dude you're clueless. You don't know because of whom we're talking about such initiatives. It's not because of Turks, and certainly not because of Iberians-Italians, Tamils, Tibetans etc. Those are all well integrated.
I would imagine so based on my previous trip. I imagine you are talking about people from the Middle-East like Iranians, Iraqis, etc.?

PS: Are there alot of Tibetans in Switzerland?

[cltknight]

Dude you're clueless. You don't know because of whom we're talking about such initiatives. It's not because of Turks, and certainly not because of Iberians-Italians, Tamils, Tibetans etc. Those are all well integrated.





Please do enlighten us:)or is it Un secret d'Etat

[Virus]

What part of my article you did not get, Farakhan is not a Muslim:) Do you know Daniel pipes? Trust me, he is not a big supporter of Islam or Muslims.

Who gives a poop if "Daniel Pipes" says someone isn't a muslim, is he like the ultimate vetter for hajj these days? I'm sure he isn't. And when a muslim from one sect calls another one not a true muslim, it is like the catholics saying mormons aren't true christians. And someone with a marines avatar is worried about bigotry?

[cltknight]

Who gives a poop if "Daniel Pipes" says someone isn't a muslim, is he like the ultimate vetter for hajj these days? I'm sure he isn't. And when a muslim from one sect calls another one not a true muslim, it is like the catholics saying mormons aren't true christians. And someone with a marines avatar is worried about bigotry?

I did not know that having the Marine Avatar and being against bigotry were mutually exclusive.

[LineDoggie]

That may be a really misleading photograph. WHY is is cropped so tight on the right? He may have been givign a benediction when photographed, which can be done with either two hands or one. I saw a priest at an Episcopalian church funeral hold out the right hand, palm down over a casket while saying a prayer over the decease person just last week. I believe your right. If you lokk at the raised arm at the shoulder you can see the dark cassock? at an upward angle. Now look to the left shoulder and its going upwards as well. I suspect Turkish Defence has a Doctored Pic.


The other photosgraphs aren't very pleasant, but you know that people had a habit of getting sent to the K-lagers when they didn't do what the Nazis wanted them to.

2,579 Catholic Priest's were sent as Inmates to Dachau Concentration Camp alone. 1,034 of them died there.

It is estimated that at least 3,000 other Polish priests were sent to other concentration camps, including Auschwitz, while priests from across Europe were condemned to death and labor camps: 300 priests died at Sachsenhausen, 780 at Mauthausen, and 5,000 at Buchenwald. These numbers do not include the priests who were murdered en route to the camps or who died from diseases and exhaustion in the inhuman cattle cars used to transport victims. Several thousand nuns were also sent to camps or killed on the way.

The list of victims is a very long one. For many, the ordeal lasted for years. Adam Kozlowiecki, a Polish priest, was arrested by the Gestapo in November 1939 and was sent to Auschwitz in 1940; transferred to Dachau in December 1940, he spent the next five years there until he was freed by the U.S. 42nd & 45th Infantry Divisions on April 29, 1945. Kozlowiecki was made a cardinal in 1998. A few of the other notable priests at Dachau were Bl. Michal Kozal, Bl. Stefan Grelewski, Bl. Stefan Frelichowski, Bl. Karl Leisner, and Bl. Titus Brandsma.





SO you can see Turkish Defence is beig quite disengenuous

[hsh2]

I would imagine so based on my previous trip. I imagine you are talking about people from the Middle-East like Iranians, Iraqis, etc.?

PS: Are there alot of Tibetans in Switzerland?

Iranians, Iraqis, Pashtuns, Dagestanis etc yes, but mostly Bosnians, Albanians etc

In my area, the NW, there are many Tibetans indeed but even much more Tamils.
In fact in my city we have a quarter that's only Tamil shops food sari etc. However it's nowhere near in size like China Town or Japan Town in N America, evidently.

[hsh2]

cltknight, out of curiosity, where have you learned French? Are you even American (going by your avatar)?

[cltknight]

cltknight, out of curiosity, where have you learned French? Are you even American (going by your avatar)?

I went to French schools when i lived in W. AFRICA.

[hsh2]

I went to French schools when i lived in W. AFRICA.

Aha I see. Did you do the Bac? Or where you just there for a few yrs ie just enough to learn the spoken language?

[cltknight]

Yes, i got my bac from there, I was there for 7 years, so i had my fair share of French, but ive also lived in North Africa, and the Middle east.

[Fat Lazy American]

And someone with a marines avatar is worried about bigotry?

That's a pretty offensive implication you just made right there.

[hsh2]

Yes, i got my bac from there, I was there for 7 years, so i had mu fair share of French

I thought so. You certainly don't learn expressions like "T'es un p'tit rigolo" in an advanced French class.

[muck]

What part of my article you did not get, Farakhan is not a Muslim:) Do you know Daniel pipes? Trust me, he is not a big supporter of Islam or Muslims.It doesn't matter at all what Pipes says concerning one lone man.
It's a matter of fact that Nazism and Islamism have lots of common ideals and conceptions of enemies such as the Jews and it is a matter of fact that the Nazis did maintain profound relations (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1987-004-09A%2C_Amin_al_Husseini_und_Adolf_Hitler.jpg) to Islamic Clerics of the Middle East, resulting even in the establishment of Muslim volunteer units within the German military.

The Nazis' spiritual sons resumed these close ties.

Just live with it.

We basically just spent six or seven pages of this thread bitching about an issue which couldn't be further from the thread's original subject.

[cltknight]

It doesn't matter at all what Pipes says concerning one lone man.
It's a matter of fact that Nazism and Islamism have lots of common ideals and conceptions of enemies such as the Jews and it is a matter of fact that the Nazis did maintain profound relations (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1987-004-09A%2C_Amin_al_Husseini_und_Adolf_Hitler.jpg) to Islamic Clerics of the Middle East, resulting even in the establishment of Muslim volunteer units within the German military.

The Nazis' spiritual sons resumed these close ties.

Just live with it.

We basically just spent six or seven pages of this thread bitching about an issue which couldn't be further from the thread's origi

nal subject.

Obviously i can not change the way you see things:) Let's not forget that there were many more foreign legions ( French, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian and Ukrainian ). i have lived and worked with many Muslims from all over the world and reading your buL$HI^ comparing their religion to Nazism is just not fair. Maybe the west the west should take a look into the conduct of the Catholic church during World war 2.

How are we going to win the war against terrorism, if we keep calling Two billion Muslims terrorists and Nazi Lovers.

[Macs.]

Obviously i can not change the way you see things:) Let's not forget that there were many more foreign legions ( French, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian and Ukrainian ). i have lived and worked with many Muslims from all over the world and reading your buL$HI^ comparing their religion to Nazism is just not fair. Maybe the west the west should take a look into the conduct of the Catholic church during World war 2.

How are we going to win the war against terrorism, if we keep calling Two billion Muslims terrorists and Nazi Lovers.

You just don't get it, do you ?

He isn't comparing islam to nationalsocialism. He is saying that SOME people from both groups used or are having relationships and similar/same goals in some aspects which is why they found together.

[cltknight]

You just don't get it, do you ?

He isn't comparing islam to nationalsocialism. He is saying that SOME people from both groups used or are having relationships and similar/same goals in some aspects which is why they found together.

That was my point, we have to be specific, I see why you would compare Alqiada and the rest of the Muslim fanatics to Nazism but you can not compare Islam itself to Nazism, we just can not afford to keep making more enemies, especially, that these people take their faith seriously.

[muck]

Obviously i can not change the way you see things:) Let's not forget that there were many more foreign legions ( French, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian and Ukrainian ). i have lived and worked with many Muslims from all over the world and reading your buL$HI^ comparing their religion to Nazism is just not fair. Maybe the west the west should take a look into the conduct of the Catholic church during World war 2.

How are we going to win the war against terrorism, if we keep calling Two billion Muslims terrorists and Nazi Lovers.

That was my point, we have to be specific, I see why you would compare Alqiada and the rest of the Muslim fanatics to Nazism but you can not compare Islam itself to Nazism, we just can not afford to keep making more enemies, especially, that these people take their faith seriously.You should learn to read and enjoy the feeling, you nitwit!

Islamism

Islamists

islamists

radical Islamism
Quite obviously, I've never referred neither of my arguments to Islam as a whole but to Islamism which happens to be two absolutely different things.

You could have noticed my wording way better than you actually did if you hadn't wasted your time on accusing people of bigotry and making a damn fool out of yourself!

[cltknight]

Next time you can be more specific, words like radicals and Extremists might help.

[Crazed Aussie]

Ahhh the smell of democracy on the internet. Gentlemen, you do us all proud.
And as for the Swiss, it's THEIR country< let them do as they collectively will, and all power to them. By the by, there was an issue in the south west of Sydney, here in Oztralia, whereby citizens forced local councils to rescind planning approval for mosque/minaret. So it's not just a Swiss issue, but then again we're a bigotted. racist bunch of bastards here in terra australis. sarcasm guys!! get it!!

[Wahnsinn]

Yes it does. But it was not Nazi. It was first used by the Prussians in the 17th century then the Germans had it on their helmets in WWI.

The Wehrmacht in WWII had it on their belt buckles but it was not Nazi. The SS used Meine Ehre heißt Treue. Cork your arse mate.


So the people doing the bidding of the Nazi's can have it on their belt buckle but not have anything to do with the Nazi's at all? I'm not saying Germans were Nazis but if the Nazis disliked it that much they would of got rid of it.

[Lazy Lob]

So the people doing the bidding of the Nazi's can have it on their belt buckle but not have anything to do with the Nazi's at all? I'm not saying Germans were Nazis but if the Nazis disliked it that much they would of got rid of it.

I think the Nazis disliked many things and you are quite right in saying that not all of Germany sympathised with the Nazis. The process of getting rid of aspects of life that the Nazis disliked was just that, a process. What I am saying is that Gott mit Uns was not a Nazi slogan as alluded to. It predated the Nazis by nearly 3 centuries and was already part of the German army when Hitler came to power. When and how they would have wiped the slate clean is anyone’s guess, but as we all now know that process had begun. No point antagonising the Wehrmacht when they were so heavily reliant on it to spread their “gospel”.

Hitler and many Nazis privately and even publicly disliked Christianity and many other religions for differing reasons.

[Wahnsinn]

I think the Nazis disliked many things and you are quite right in saying that not all of Germany sympathised with the Nazis. The process of getting rid of aspects of life that the Nazis disliked was just that, a process. What I am saying is that Gott mit Uns was not a Nazi slogan as alluded to. It predated the Nazis by nearly 3 centuries and was already part of the German army when Hitler came to power. When and how they would have wiped the slate clean is anyone’s guess, but as we all now know that process had begun. No point antagonising the Wehrmacht when they were so heavily reliant on it to spread their “gospel”.

Hitler and many Nazis privately and even publicly disliked Christianity and many other religions for differing reasons.

I know it predated the Nazis, hell, even Wikipedia can tell me that. I would just of thought that after 12 years in power they would of found plenty of time to get rid of it.

[muck]

Next time you can be more specific, words like radicals and Extremists might help.Islamism is pretty damn specific you fool.

[Lazy Lob]

I know it predated the Nazis, hell, even Wikipedia can tell me that. I would just of thought that after 12 years in power they would of found plenty of time to get rid of it.

Obviously they didn't they were a bit busy fighting on a few fronts as well as exterminating quite a few people. If you like Wiki so much then carry on reading. Suggestions would be the Thule society, the DAP, Bibelforscher and others given the purple triangle, "Positive Christianity", Dietrich Bonhoeffer and others like him.


As Martin Bormann put it, "Priests will be paid by us and, as a result, they will preach what we want. If we find a priest acting otherwise short work is to be made of him. The task of the priest consists in keeping the Poles quiet, stupid, and dull-witted."

History has many examples of new ideologies having to piggyback on existing ones in order to permeate society. The Nazis used some christian symbology and some some was wiped and replaced.

[Connaught Ranger]

Let's not forget that there were many more foreign legions ( French, Italian, Romanian, Hungarian and Ukrainian ).

Like a few others, including the "British Free Corps" the so called "Romanian Legion" was a paper Legion, it never had enough man-power oe equipment to be of the strength as an independent legion, and those, mainly "volksdeutch" from the Transylvania region and members of the fascist Romanian "Iron Guard" who joined were soon pushed into other units such as "Wiking".

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Connaught Ranger]

Yes it does. But it was not Nazi. It was first used by the Prussians in the 17th century then the Germans had it on their helmets in WWI.

The Wehrmacht in WWII had it on their belt buckles but it was not Nazi. The SS used Meine Ehre heißt Treue. Cork your arse mate.

I believe, it might have appeared on the Prussian "picklehauber" (sp?) leather helmets early in WW1, as part of the Kaisers Cipher, but by 1916 and the introduction of the first steel helmets there were no motifs on the helmets or the words "GOTT MIT UNS."

More specifically the Prussian Military carried it on their belt buckles in WW1, other associated Germanic states had their own design on their Regimental buckles.

It was also part of the Wehrmacht 1937 belt buckle design along with the Eagle and swastika.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Lazy Lob]

I believe, it might have appeared on the Prussian "picklehauber" (sp?) leather helmets early in WW1, as part of the Kaisers Cipher, but by 1916 and the introduction of the first steel helmets there were no motifs on the helmets or the words "GOTT MIT UNS."

More specifically the Prussian Military carried it on their belt buckles in WW1, other associated Germanic states had their own design on their Regimental buckles.

It was also part of the Wehrmacht 1937 belt buckle design along with the Eagle and swastika.

Connaught Ranger.:)

You're quite right. Their steel pots had no external motifs, but they were only introduced in 1916.

[Steak-Sauce]

I believe, it might have appeared on the Prussian "picklehauber" (sp?)
Pickelhaube.

Gentlemen, thanks for this awesome thread. Completely derailed, but nonetheless very entertaining.

€dit: I just saw that you can translate it into "German spiked helmet".

[Ghost Nappa]

I for one had something totally different in mind, too: Minarets and traditional islamic architecture don't fit into European cities. Period.

.


Just for a LOL factor, rofl



Albania > Europe > European

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Lura_Albania_mosque.jpg


Oh well if people are so stuck upp with their ass, then they must crying river when Albania joning the EU or a matter of fact excluding Bosnia and Hezegovina from the European continent, ya know after all they're native europeans
Joke aside, I get your point, Western hemsihpere a.k.a the civillized ad developed one. And hideous architecture is like personal flavor

[hatchet_harry]

reviving this old thread to present you the newly created official poster for the campaign.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2285/hbq30iecpxgenr495x700.jpg

already sparked some controversy here. but who knows, maybe it's gonna be an export succes like that other one:

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/5510/hb2rjipspxgenr457x318.jpg

[Crazed Aussie]

Hi Hatchet Harry, can you inform me what the bottom poster is all about ? The top poster seems self evident but the bottom one has me puzzled. Appreciate your help, cheers mate.

[OrangeWolf]

Hi Hatchet Harry, can you inform me what the bottom poster is all about ? The top poster seems self evident but the bottom one has me puzzled. Appreciate your help, cheers mate.

It means they want to restrict the possibilites for foreigners to move to Switzerland and settle there as immigrants. Bulgaria and Romania are now EU members but several parties in the old EU countries want to limit the amount of immigrants and "guest workers" from these countries. Switzerland is not in the EU so they in particular have every right to say who can and cannot come in, I suppose. I just wonder how many immigrants from these countries they got, I thought it were primarily people from former Yugoslavia.

[muck]

Just for a LOL factor, rofl

Albania > Europe > European

Oh well if people are so stuck upp with their ass, then they must crying river when Albania joning the EU or a matter of fact excluding Bosnia and Hezegovina from the European continent, ya know after all they're native europeans
Joke aside, I get your point, Western hemsihpere a.k.a the civillized ad developed one. And hideous architecture is like personal flavorFrom a cultural-historical point of view, minarets don't fit into Albanian cities either. The architectural heritage of this region is not confined to the height of the Ottoman empire. In historical terms speaking, Albania and Bosnia belong to the European culture area. Thats true. My statement remains valid though anyhow. It's not like these less-than-five-million people would be representative for 500 million other Europeans, right?

[TurkishDefense]

muck, if i may venture a guess:

the thread is about "switzerland and minarets" not about the "balkans".

[muck]

muck, if i may venture a guess:

the thread is about "switzerland and minarets" not about the "balkans".You don't say. No pun?
Basically this thread is about the compatibility of islamic influences with European culture because otherwise no one would give a damn about an effing building.
So you can make a guess that it's pretty damn important for the matter that it is discussed if presumable compatibility in one European country necessarily means compatibility in all European countries.

[TurkishDefense]

well, "balkan" comes from a turkish word meaning "a chain of wooded mountains".

[muck]

I see: Switzerland is a chain of wooded mountains as well.

Hooray for minarets!

[TurkishDefense]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/image.php?u=32561&dateline=1217479196
cheers

[hatchet_harry]

Hi Hatchet Harry, can you inform me what the bottom poster is all about ? The top poster seems self evident but the bottom one has me puzzled. Appreciate your help, cheers mate.
switzerland is not a member of the eu. however, the eu and switzerland have bilateral treaties which in a lot of fields come very close to a membership. for example: you're free to travel or choose a place to work within the eu. by a bilateral treaty, this was also valid for switzerland. later on, romania and bulgaria joined the eu. there was a mandatory referendum whether to expand this to the new members or not (ausdehnung der personenfreizügigkeit). the swiss people accepted an expansion to the two countries by about 60%.

the poster at the bottom was advertising not to expand it. it was created by the swiss people's party (svp), the same party that already created the infamous sheep poster. the anti minaret people are also affiliated with the svp.
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3532/ausgrenzung.jpg

the sheep were later copied by the german npd and they tried the same thing with the birds which was promptly stopped by a german court. german article (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/europa/Volksverhetzend--Deutsches-Gericht-stoppt-ElsternPlakate/story/13107056)


---

@orangewolf: foreigners in switzerland by nation

romania: 4452
bulgaria: 2377

that's nothing. the biggest group is italians, followed by germans , portugese and serbians. if you add up all of former yugoslavia they make up for the biggest group. totally, a whole 21.7% of the population of switzerland are foreign citizens. the fastest growing group being the germans... what is this country coming to :-( ... p-)
source (http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/01/07/blank/key/01/01.html)

[Crazed Aussie]

My thanks for your comprehensive explanation Harry. It would seem that this is a sensitive issue (minarets & the implications therein) no matter where you reside on the planet. Europe's situation is certainly complex and you do wonder if a reasonable balance can be found, for me it's the threat posed by Islamic radical elements, not your average Muslim who I suspect wants to live life in peace and quiet. Cheers mate

[Derbedeu]

Swiss appear to back minaret ban
Projections from exit polls suggest that voters in Switzerland have backed a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets.
The result is not yet official, but the BBC's correspondent in Berne says if it is confirmed, it would be a surprise.
The proposal was backed by the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which claims minarets are a sign of Islamisation.
Opponents say a ban would discriminate and that the ballot has stirred hatred.
The government opposes a ban.
Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets. Official referendum results are due at 1700 GMT.
Under the Swiss system, a referendum result is not binding unless a majority of canton voting districts approve it, as well as a majority of voters.
'Huge surprise'
The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the voting trends are very bad news for the Swiss government which had urged voters to reject a ban on minarets, fearing unrest among the Muslim community and damage to Switzerland's relations with Islamic countries.
But voters worried about rising immigration, and with it the rise of Islam, seem to have ignored the government's advice, our correspondent says.
Partial results from the poll which closed at 1100 GMT indicated that the German-speaking canton of Lucerne accepted the ban, while French-speaking cantons Geneva and Vaud voted against, news agency AFP reported.
"The initiative would appear to be accepted, there is a positive trend. It's a huge surprise," French-language television said, 30 minutes after polls closed at midday.
Islam is the most widespread religion after Christianity in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.
There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.
Supporters of a ban claim that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.
But others say the referendum campaign has incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.
Before the vote, Amnesty International warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.
'Political symbol'
Sunday's referendum was held after the People's party collected 100,000 signatures from eligible voters within 18 months calling for a vote.
SVP member of parliament Ulrich Schluer said the referendum campaign had helped integration by encouraging debate. He rejected the charge of discrimination.
"Every Muslim is allowed to come together with other Muslims to have the religion together," he told the BBC.
"But a minaret is a political symbol. It is a symbol for introducing, step-by-step, Sharia rights also in Switzerland, parallel to the Swiss law which is a result of Swiss democracy. And this is the problem. It is nothing against Muslims."
In recent years many countries in Europe have been debating their relationship with Islam, and how best to integrate their Muslim populations.
France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques in Cologne.






http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385069.stm

[Mackie]

Swiss are right. Modern religious buildings should be integrated in the cities culture and not connected to a architecture used thousands of kilometers away.

[tyovan]

Congratulations to the Swiss voters for their political courage.
A minaret is not essential to a mosque, it exists solely as a political statement. Particularly with the increasing politicization of Europe's Muslim population, minarets should not be allowed in Europe's skyline..

[Stefan850]

Congratulations to the Swiss voters for their political courage.
A minaret is not essential to a mosque, it exists solely as a political statement. Particularly with the increasing politicization of Europe's Muslim population, minarets should not be allowed in Europe's skyline..

Agree...........

[Ordie]

Swiss are right. Modern religious buildings should be integrated in the cities culture and not connected to a architecture used thousands of kilometers away.

Perhaps the Swiss should practice what they preach.


http://www.archdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/958759918_a2-kofmehl-www.jpg

It's stupid issues and policies that only give Al Qaida fodder for their cause.

The Swiss should be like Americans and consider Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

[2495]

Good on the Swiss. Time this relentless march of islamisation was forced to take a back seat to a native populations wishes.

[Ordie]

Congratulations to the Swiss voters for their political courage.
A minaret is not essential to a mosque, it exists solely as a political statement. Particularly with the increasing politicization of Europe's Muslim population, minarets should not be allowed in Europe's skyline..

Just live and let live.

[2495]

Just live and let live.

Thats the problem - islam doesn't want to live and let live. A simple look at the world today will show you that with ample proof.

They want global domination, and no unbeliever is worth sh1t, so in their eyes why should they live and let live?

[tattooman]

Well, it is democracy! Swiis people speak and say no. I support them.

[Mr.K]

Their country, their rules.

[quinsen]

It's their county, it's their decision. I respect that.

Wish we had this democracy, too.

[Tyon]

Congratulations to the Swiss voters for their political courage.
A minaret is not essential to a mosque, it exists solely as a political statement. Particularly with the increasing politicization of Europe's Muslim population, minarets should not be allowed in Europe's skyline..

Indeed thats why iam against any synagogue in europe.

This is a christian continent!




:roll: Oh boy thats so sad....

[Afro-European]

Great news.Vox populi:voice of the people. I wish we had the same sh!t here in The Netherlands.

[IcyHot]

Congratulations you sure have my support woot

[JBH22]

good decision hope they enforce it...

[Octavariable]

Indeed thats why iam against any synagogue in europe.

This is a christian continent!




:roll: Oh boy thats so sad....

Yes, very bad, especially considering that this is a ban on Minarets, not mosques.

[m.i.t]

Do really just a couple of minaret called long towers scare all people so much ?

If a muslim country banned the particularites of chistianity faiths such as crosses or bells would she not been called primitive fundamentalist or islamo facsist ?

Yes.because she would has deserved to be called like that.

Mates. dont let fear mongering captive you. Islamic fundamentalist bastards wish this.

Because those dark minded idiots almost hate everybody except themselves . Dont let them win.

[Tyon]

Yes, very bad, especially considering that this is a ban on Minarets, not mosques.

Too bad that a minaret is a fundamental part of a mosque. So they could have just banned the whole thing.

[Ozzy[NO]]

I'd be OK with it if it were not used for call to prayer(adhan). I don't cherish the idea of waking up at sunrise every day...

[Octavariable]

Too bad that a minaret is a fundamental part of a mosque. So they could have just banned the whole thing.

Too bad that since the advent of PA systems, it lost it's sole functional purpose :roll:

[MkH]

It's good to see that after 70 years the swiss are still not ready to surrender to fascism.

[Telmar]

Good call.

I'm glad that the Swiss had their say on it.

A minaret with a muezzin calling all to prayer (and several times a day) is proselytism. Freedom to practice religion yes, but no voiced call to prayer intruding on people's lives. A muezzin is much more vocal than the chimes of a bell.

And the bells have been with us for centuries. Our societies have been built on the foundation of Judeo-Christian values. Immigrants will just have to blend in. It should not be so hard since the freedom to practice all religions is granted.

[2495]

It's good to see that after 70 years the swiss are still not ready to surrender to fascism.

Thats just it - islamic facism that wants what it demands or issue thinly veiled threats to the population that disagrees with its wishes and stated aims.

So why should the swiss bow down to their wishes? they got a mosque, so suck it up and deal with it.

[Ayub -al -Somal]

;4589141']I'd be OK with it if it were not used for call to prayer(adhan). I don't cherish the idea of waking up at sunrise every day...
^
rofl

If the majority of the people do not want it , I am okay with it , I don't agree with it but I have to accept it .

[frenchy]

;4589141']I'd be OK with it if it were not used for call to prayer(adhan). I don't cherish the idea of waking up at sunrise every day...

I back this opinion.
And in addition, when we'll see total freedom of cult in muslim countries, we'll can accept minarets with strict controls in order to avoid imams which are encouraging terrorism.

[saturnin]

Just live and let live.

I agree with you, but you need both side to understand that. Many muslim immigrants have practicaly no education, no sense for compromise and respect law only if it suit them at the moment. To have working multicultural population you need effort on each side. Switzerland have relatively very hard conditions to get citizenship, they know why they do that.

[Ordie]

It's good to see that after 70 years the swiss are still not ready to surrender to fascism.

I think it's the opposite.

Because of this act, the Swiss have become more Facist.

[quinsen]

I think it's the opposite.

Because of this act, the Swiss have become more Facist.
It seems you have no knowledge, what fascism means, but go on...

[Afro-European]

I think it's the opposite.

Because of this act, the Swiss have become more Facist.
Do you 5-6 millions of those that voted for ban are fascists? How many catholic churches are there in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Malaysia,etc again?
I strongly back this move and hope more European countries to follow suit.

[Ordie]

;4589141']I'd be OK with it if it were not used for call to prayer(adhan). I don't cherish the idea of waking up at sunrise every day...

This is not the case.

Many mosques (with minarets) in non Muslim majority countries, allows the call to prayers over the radio. Where people can choose to tune in or not. In respect to the community at large.

The ban on minarets will only give the fundamentalist a recruiting tool for thier cause. To fight extremist, we in the west must adhere to the principle of religious freedom, tolerance and acceptance. This includes the architecture of houses of worship.

It is the responsibilty of a democracy to protect the minority from the majority. The Swiss are less tolerant by this act.

[Ayub -al -Somal]

Afro European

How many catholic churches are there in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Malaysia,etc again?
I strongly back this move and hope more European countries to follow suit.
How many christians are there in those countries is the question you should ask yourself .
Malaysia : 9.1 %
church
http://www.tripandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/christ-church-mekaka-malaysia.gif

Iran : wikipedia estimated 600 churches
http://www.irantravelingcenter.com/images/Iranian_Christians3.jpg

As for SA and Kuwait , do you expect them do build churches for the expats?:cantbeli:

[LineDoggie]

I think it's the opposite.

Because of this act, the Swiss have become more Facist.

Yes, next they're building ovens, right Ordie? :roll:

The People Voted, in every other thread you call that Democracy.

[Ghost Nappa]

It seems you have no knowledge, what fascism means, but go on...


Facism and is ideological core is different

"Islamism" doctrine and ideas was developed in India, Egypt and elsewhere long from Europe base on some preacher serval hundred years ago. Independently from Facism.




Do you 5-6 millions of those that voted for ban are fascists? How many catholic churches are there in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Malaysia,etc again?That argument is lame, many ME countries (Levant) including Iran is multi-ethnical.

[Zarak]

I'm glad we have Ordie. Basically, whatever position he takes, the opposite is the most logical. Makes things a lot more simple.

There's just nobody else on this board that is so uniformly wrong, on every opinion and post, ever. Even Macs.

[gazell]

^
rofl

If the majority of the people do not want it , I am okay with it , I don't agree with it but I have to accept it .

Why do you not agree with it?

How many Christian churches are there in muslim countries that do the bells at noon in remembrance of the defeat of the Ottomans? And why would they? Why do you expect such things of others?

[quinsen]

Facism and is ideological core is different

"Islamism" doctrine and ideas was developed in India, Egypt and elsewhere long from Europe base on some preacher serval hundred years ago. Independently from Facism.

That argument is lame, many ME countries (Levant) including Iran is multi-ethnical.
The term 'facism' wasn't directed towards islam by him, but switzerland.

Multi-ethnical yes. But how christians are treated in these countries is another story, especially in arabic ones.

[gazell]

I think it's the opposite.

Because of this act, the Swiss have become more Facist.

You gotta be joking. Why would people give up their countries and cultures to others? Immigrants, who want to forcefully change the land instead of integrating are occupiers.

Why does the US keep an army for? Just give it up.p-)

[Jaeger07]

Democracy... it works p-)

[Ayub -al -Somal]

Gazell
1/ I don't know what "bells at noon in remembrance of the defat of the ottomans" you're talking about here .
If you {assuming you're swiss} would let me build a mosque in your country , I would like to have built the traditional way , that's why .

[Gunbird]

Thank god I live in the United States, where we don't ban everything that makes us uncomfortable. (Minarets)

Jesus Christ.

[Xaito]

I agree with you, but you need both side to understand that. Many muslim immigrants have practicaly no education, no sense for compromise and respect law only if it suit them at the moment. To have working multicultural population you need effort on each side. Switzerland have relatively very hard conditions to get citizenship, they know why they do that.

what's wrong with teaching them how things work in Europe instead of recreating their domestic environment in miniature?
We're talking about a country, not a zoo.
Integration is a must - if immigrants don't try to integrate they'll keep on sticking out like a sore thumb which in turn creates conflict and hurt feelings on both sides - and I say that being an immigrant myself. :)

[Ozzy[NO]]

As for SA and Kuwait , do you expect them do build churches for the expats?:cantbeli:

Saudi Arabia have no religious freedom, the ex-pats aren't even allowed to own a Bible, or hold services. I'm glad European, Christian countries don't treat people of other religions as they do in some Muslim countries.