Should Russia reintroduce a Gorbachev-style anti-alcohol campaign?

[Mango Madness]

Drinking in Russia is part of the national culture. Rarely is a celebration not marked by rounds of vodka shots. As President Medvedev said, alcoholism is a national disaster. The Russian Public Chamber said in a report in June that around 500,000 Russians die annually from alcohol-related deaths. A new study has found that half of all deaths of people of working age in Russia are caused by alcohol. Russia's mortality rate in people aged 15-54 years was more than five times higher for men and three times higher for women than in Western Europe. Alcohol is also involved in some 80% of all murders and 40% of suicides in Russia.

The only effort to reduce this culture of drinking that has shown major results has the been Gorbachev's anti-alcohol campaign.

Prices of vodka, wine and beer were raised, and their sales were restricted in amount and time of day. People who were caught drunk at work or in public were prosecuted. Drinking on long-distance trains and in public places was banned. Many famous wineries were destroyed and plantations of grapes uprooted, often of precious cultivars. Scenes of alcohol consumption were cut out from films.

The positive results from the anti-alcohol campaign were immense. During its short period, it saved the lives of over 1 million Russians (http://demoscope.ru/weekly/2006/0263/tema03.php), led to a fall in criminality, there were 5.5 million newborns or 500,000 a year more than every year for the past 20-30 years (and there was 8% less disabled newborns), and it boosted the life expectancy of males by 3 years to its highest level ever in Russia's history.

In my opinion the same anti-alcohol campaign should be reintroduced. The country's population has been decimated since the fall of the Soviet Union. The demographic situation is still dire. The death rate in Russia is double that of the EU. The recent increases in the birth rate is partly due to the baby boom of the 80s. Despite the mini baby boom and nearly 300,000 immigrants coming to Russia annually, the Russian population still fell by nearly 200,000 people last year. Soon the small pool of children born in the 90s will come of child bearing age.

Russian male life expectancy is still at its 1950 level and is comparable to that of African countries. The death rate is above that of many African countries. An anti-alcohol campaign will create a healthier nation. It would significantly decrease the death rate, increase the birth rate, reduce the suicide rate (2nd highest in the world per capita) and reduce criminality.

This is not complete prohibition and it is a small price to pay for such huge benefits. Millions of lives will be saved and created. Revenues lost from alcohol sales will be offset by money saved from preventing these premature deaths and diseases.



An opinion poll published on Tuesday said that the majority of Russians are in favor of the introduction of an anti-alcohol campaign, the All-Russian Public Opinion Study Center (VTsIOM) reported. VTsIOM said that 65% of Russians would support an anti-alcohol program, with 34% totally in favor of a campaign and 31% "likely to support it." Only 8% of respondents were against the initiative and 17% preferred to say no to any campaign with 10% unable to answer. The pollster said more women were in favor of anti-alcohol measures. The most popular measure among respondents (63%) was a ban on selling alcohol to the under 21s. A ban on alcohol advertising was also popular at 57%, with 47% voting for a campaign promoting healthy lifestyles. Some 34% of respondents said drinking alcohol and being drunk in public places should also be made a criminal offense. A total of 31% of those polled were in favor of a ban on alcohol sales in the morning, 29% proposed compulsory treatment for alcoholism and 19% said alcohol prices should be increased.""
http://en.rian.ru/society/20090811/155783374.html

[Mr.K]

No, sadly you'll only have more poisonings and corruption. "BAN ALL ALCOHOL" doesn't work.

[Mango Madness]

No, sadly you'll only have more poisonings and corruption. "BAN ALL ALCOHOL" doesn't work.

The growth of consumption of "illegal" alcohol did not compensate for falling consumption of "legal" alcohol, therefore a real reduction in general consumption of alcohol was still observed, as the results of the anti-alcohol campaign attest.

[Mr.K]

More poisonings from moonshine, sure, but this will not compensate for the fall in the legal alcohol consumption. The results speak for themselves.

There is so much underage drinking going on.
I'm afraid its going to be a catch 22. Guys will become alcoholics, because they lost their job , because they bought alcohol at the wrong time of the day.
I think Russia is moving in the right direction, a couple of years ago cities were plastered with alcohol ads, and a lot of people in the crowd had a can of beer while walking.
No drastic steps should be taken when dealing with this problem.

[tyovan]

There are benefits. But lets not forget what else happened - people turned to moonshine and homemade alcohol with almost arguably worse health results overall.

Alcohol is deeply ingrained in the culture. It's not going to be that easy to be erased. Russia is in effect, still a peasant country. Most people are only 1-2 generations removed from the village. The village mentality still seems to run pretty strongly.

Does the government still get a lot of its revenue from vodka sales?

[Mango Madness]

There is so much underage drinking going on.
I'm afraid its going to be a catch 22. Guys will become alcoholics, because they lost their job , because they bought alcohol at the wrong time of the day.
I think Russia is moving in the right direction, a couple of years ago cities were plastered with alcohol ads, and a lot of people in the crowd had a can of beer while walking.
No drastic steps should be taken when dealing with this problem.

And more guys will not lose their jobs and actually get jobs because they are sober.


There are benefits. But lets not forget what else happened - people turned to moonshine and homemade alcohol with almost arguably worse health results overall.

Alcohol is deeply ingrained in the culture. It's not going to be that easy to be erased. Russia is in effect, still a peasant country. Most people are only 1-2 generations removed from the village. The village mentality still seems to run pretty strongly.

Does the government still get a lot of its revenue from vodka sales?

This is far outweighed by the number of people saved who didn't turn to moonshine, as the results attest.

It doesn't get a lot of its revenue from vodka sales anymore as the government no longer has a monopoly on vodka sales, which is a good because this will have less of an impact on revenues then it did then.

[Seek]

banning stuff never ended in good results... there has to be a change in the mindset of people.

[Sashko]

There are benefits. But lets not forget what else happened - people turned to moonshine and homemade alcohol with almost arguably worse health results overall.

Alcohol is deeply ingrained in the culture. It's not going to be that easy to be erased. Russia is in effect, still a peasant country. Most people are only 1-2 generations removed from the village. The village mentality still seems to run pretty strongly.

Does the government still get a lot of its revenue from vodka sales?


Actually Russian villages were very "dry", this stereotype of a drunken Russian villager is from after-WW2 period. Average peasant in Czarist Russia drank about twice a year. I remember my great-grandmother telling me that being drunk was very taboo pre-WW2, however after coming from the front half the men turned to rampant alcoholism.

[tyovan]

Excessive consumption of hard liquor might also be seen as a form of disorder, but it was so integral a part of Russian peasant life, as we have already seen, that it can also be understood as belonging to the normal rhythm of daily life.

Olga Semyonova Tian-Shanskaia, Village Life in Late Tsarist Russia, ed. David L. Ransel (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1993), 109.

[Raptus_regaliter]

Actually Russian villages were very "dry", this stereotype of a drunken Russian villager is from after-WW2 period. Average peasant in Czarist Russia drank about twice a year. I remember my great-grandmother telling me that being drunk was very taboo pre-WW2, however after coming from the front half the men turned to rampant alcoholism.

Untrue.
Heavy drinking was rampant in Russia's peasantry for centuries.

[Kit]

Anti-Alcohol: no

Anti-Alcoholism: yes

Making alcohol hard to get is not going to solve issues. Russians should be made aware that alcoholism is the enemy towards their health.

[Sashko]

Untrue.
Heavy drinking was rampant in Russia's peasantry for centuries.


Average peasant worked from sunrise to sundown - with such schedule there is no time to drink daily. There were several holidays a year when peasants could afford to go on drinking binges, however painting a picture that a Russian peasant was perpetually drunk is wrong.

Here's a good essay on the subject:
http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/34/6/824

[Raptus_regaliter]

Average peasant worked from sunrise to sundown - with such schedule there is no time to drink daily. There were several holidays a year when peasants could afford to go on drinking binges, however painting a picture that a Russian peasant was perpetually drunk is wrong.

Here's a good essay on the subject:
http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/34/6/824

A good article, which confirms what I wrote earlier.

[po-belomu]

Untrue.
Heavy drinking was rampant in Russia's peasantry for centuries.

How do you know?

[JSV]

This topic just made me thirsty... I am going to join Cpt. Morgans crew tomorrow! Responsibly, or course p-)

[wicked_hind]

Prohibition never worked for us during the 1920's-early 30's.

[Spezz]

Banning of all alcohol advertisements on TV and anywhere else, except at the shops themselves, is a good start.

[Switek]

I voted "no" because it will not bring any changes... Campaigns are nothing but PR actions in fact...

[Switek]

... Guys will become alcoholics, because they lost their job , because they bought alcohol at the wrong time of the day.
...


Untrue, some become alcoholics because they lost control over amount of drunk alcohol... It's the most democratic disorder or illness affecting peple regardless their social and professional status...

Some are very famous actors, doctors, attorneys, businessmen, priests, soldiers... Some are very careful with hiding their problem.

[Panchito12]

Should Russia reintroduce a Gorbachev-style anti-alcohol campaign?

No. No, man.

S**t, no, man. I believe you ought to get your ass kicked for sayin' something like that, man

[Switek]

I hope you'll be kicked Panchito12, as well...

[Panchito12]

I hope you'll be kicked Panchito12, as well...

Where did you learn your English???:oops:

[Switek]

It's not your fvcking business, troll.

[Panchito12]

It's not your fvcking business, troll.


Ok kiddie boy. No problem.

[Russianlynxy]

Nationalize the booze and raise the price.
Take all the poor quality and ****ty cheap-ass vodka off the shelf.

this would be a good start.

[Switek]

Nationalize the booze and raise the price.
Take all the poor quality and ****ty cheap-ass vodka off the shelf.

this would be a good start.


Then moonlight brand will be the most popular.... or individual legal or illegal import will increase.

[Russianlynxy]

Then moonlight brand will be the most popular....

common fear yes, but bootlegging is not an easy task, you need the necessary equipment and knowledge. This needs to go with strong laws for bootleggers, i.e. high jail times, etc...

Cheap vodka is basically bootleg, except the only difference is that it has a stamp on it and is certified by the government, therefore legal.

It's just as bad as moonshine and needs to go.

The big problem here is not people drinking too much, it's people drinking too much of an awful product. There are countries that drink more than Russia, yet have lower death rates from alcohol-related health issues.

Personally I stay away from unknown brands and encourage friends and family to do the same. Your health is worth more.

[Switek]

common fear yes, but bootlegging is not an easy task, you need the necessary equipment and knowledge. This needs to go with strong laws for bootleggers, i.e. high jail times, etc...

The knowledge of technology how to produce vodka is very common between Warsaw and Vladivostok... the needed equipment is in every house... The funny thing is that in 1980's during huge crisis the home made vodka called in Poland "bimber" was produced by members of militia (police) and army (my grand uncle was one of them ;))


Cheap vodka is basically bootleg, except the only difference is that it has a stamp on it and is certified by the government, therefore legal. It's a matter of sanitary an required norm control ...


It's just as bad as moonshine and needs to go. Well' I had an experiences with home made alkohol and must say I was moves by taste, and quality...


The big problem here is not people drinking too much, it's people drinking too much of an awful product. There are countries that drink more than Russia, yet have lower death rates from alcohol-related health issues.
Agree but the other side solution is common growth of prosperity and ability to buy vodka from middle shelf. Of course there always be amateurs of lower shelf as well


Personally I stay away from unknown brands and encourage friends and family to do the same. Your health is worth more.
I buy only one brand of vodka, which makes as lower as possible devastation in my overall wellbeing known as "the day after syndrome". Ususally I drink beer...

[saturnin]

Prohibition never worked for us during the 1920's-early 30's.

that´s true and it was interesting subject to many economic research, for example this: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1017&full=1

side note: when Red army entered Czechoslovakia many people was surprised by "alcoholism" among those soldiers - it was just one of ways how to deal with reality of war but problem was that many of those probably didn´t stop after end of war. In 80´s another problem was simply fact that for low income people there wasn´t many options to have some fun. People who lived in SSSR during those times and I spoke to described live in soviet cities as monnotonic.

[Switek]

... People who lived in SSSR during those times and I spoke to described live in soviet cities as monnotonic.


This not the only reason, the main is a deep conviction of uncertainty based on traumatic experiences caused by terror, purges, famine and overall situation when individuals had a feelings that control of their life were beyond them...

[Russianlynxy]

This not the only reason, the main is a deep conviction of uncertainty based on traumatic experiences caused by terror, purges, famine and overall situation when individuals had a feelings that control of their life were beyond them...

Not in the 1980's man...:roll:

Lets not go into the whole psychoemotional reasoning behind this. It is a systematic problem like anything else and needs an adequate social policy.

If we were to discuss it on a macro level I would say that it is more unemployment that causes drinking problems, than anything else.

when people (especially Europeans for whom drinking is part of the culture) don't have a decent job or are not busy enough, there is a higher tendency to drink.

[saturnin]

This not the only reason, the main is a deep conviction of uncertainty based on traumatic experiences caused by terror, purges, famine and overall situation when individuals had a feelings that control of their life were beyond them...

you are right but famine is not what realy tease soviet people in 80´s. And in comparison to Czechoslovakia, Poland etc - soviet people wasn´t so much in opposition to current regime. People in Czechoslovakia didn´t accepted communist regime/occupation and many was realy afraid when all of suden they heard bell from front door. But If somebody in SSSR didn´t talk to much and followed crowd he shouldn´t be much afraid - they didn´t have real control of their live but terror wasn´t so common during those times.

real problem was life between blocks of old soviet building or prefab building which was realy grey - those people who came from Czechoslovakia to SSSr for few years to work or study described reality of live in SSSR as DEPRESSIVE especially in comparison to life in Prague

[saturnin]

Not in the 1980's man...:roll:

Lets not go into the whole psychoemotional reasoning behind this. It is a systematic problem like anything else and needs an adequate social policy.

If we were to discuss it on a macro level I would say that it is more unemployment that causes drinking problems, than anything else.

when people (especially Europeans for whom drinking is part of the culture) don't have a decent job or are not busy enough, there is a higher tendency to drink.

agree with situation in 1980´s but disagree that loose of job is automatic start for drinking. Yes some people will start drinking but to what extend is quite variable. When my grand-grand father loose job during Austria-Hungarian empire - he didn´t start drinking but (as most people from his generation) start searching for another mine to work often go to czechland or slovakia (he lived in Slovakia) to find some job. Europeans are quite wide "concept" especialy when you take into account large timeline and drinking wasn´t always so popular.

[jokuvaan]

If Alcohol causes death then natural selection will eventually produce people who are not eager drinkers. Of course this would take very very long time and by so isnt very practical point of approach....

[Russianlynxy]

If Alcohol causes death then natural selection will eventually produce people who are not eager drinkers. Of course this would take very very long time and by so isnt very practical point of approach....

True in the global scheme of things, but impractical because we're speaking about a specific country.

The reason alcohol is being brought up again as a problem in Russia is mainly because of increased driving issues. Russia REALLY began driving only several decades ago. I mean, when the majority of people have their own car, etc.

Alcohol and driving doesn't mix and this is what people need to understand, first of all. Russia is a big country and there are many areas where the roads are poorly constructed.

Drinking tradition + Driving + Poor roads in many places = high death rates.
At least two of those three need to be addressed by a set of government policies.

[saturnin]

The reason alcohol is being brought up again as a problem in Russia is mainly because of increased driving issues. Russia REALLY began driving only several decades ago. I mean, when the majority of people have their own car, etc.

Alcohol and driving doesn't mix and this is what people need to understand, first of all. Russia is a big country and there are many areas where the roads are poorly constructed.
Drinking tradition + Driving + Poor roads in many places = high death rates.
At least two of those three need to be addressed by a set of government policies.

but to ban alcohol realy do not help to improve this situation. If knowledge and hardware to produce ilegal alcohol is realy no problem in Russia any Ban which would only stop legal production/sale will only worse situation. People get possible worse quality alcohol and there is so called Ironlaw of prohition etc.

as for poor roads - well I would say that much worse problem is new generation of cars on Russian roads - I mean one which can realy fast accelerate and people inside get impression that all this airbags and similar make them immortal.

[Derbedeu]

I don't think Mango was advocating prohibition. He seems to be calling for an anti-alcohol campaign, sort of similar to how here in the US we have had an anti-smoking campaign the in the last two decades. You can no longer find ads for cigarettes on TV, only anti-smoking ads. Schools have also started concentrating on teaching the ills of smoking and drinking in health classes. From what I can tell (don't have any official stats and I'm too lazy to look it up), it has led to a decrease in people smoking. Russia should start to do the same with regards to alcohol. Start instilling children in school with the concept that drinking indiscriminately is bad for their health. Start showing ads on TV calling for a stop on binge drinking and drinking while driving. Set up more alcohol addiction treatment facilities, etc. In general educate the public.

[Switek]

you are right but famine is not what realy tease soviet people in 80´s.


Not in the 1980's man...:roll:

Exactly, but heirs adopt a behavioral pattern of their ancestors...

We In Poland have the main problem with addictions and crimnal rate above average (both alcoholic an narcotics), except big cities, or towns forcibly industrialized in communist times like Konin in so called Recovered or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories)Regained Territories: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0a/Northern_and_Western_Territories.PNG/150px-Northern_and_Western_Territories.PNG

The second and third generation falls in addiction trap, they still do not believe that fundamental basis of their existence is up to them... They live in so called temporary reality, not depended on them...

[saturnin]

Exactly, but heirs adopt a behavioral pattern of their ancestors...

We In Poland have the main problem with addictions and crimnal rate above average (both alcoholic an narcotics), except big cities, or towns forcibly industrialized in communist times like Konin in so called Recovered or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories)Regained Territories: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0a/Northern_and_Western_Territories.PNG/150px-Northern_and_Western_Territories.PNG

The second and third generation falls in addiction trap, they still do not believe that fundamental basis of their existence is up to them... They live in so called temporary reality, not depended on them...

I understand what you mean by regained territories and possible social/psychological effect of loose of rootage (Sudeten land had similar bad history but it was somehow different stories in regard to worse drinking behaviour of new inhabitans - their selection) but on the other hand is it realy so big problem NOW? What you mean by temporary reality? - this is democracy and (to some extend) free market ie there is always uncentainty whether you will keep your job next day or whether there will be better opportunities in another part of country/EU. "no depended on them" - but it depends now. It is up to them what they do and how and where.

sorry for this of-topic

[Switek]

I understand what you mean by regained territories and possible social/psychological effect of loose of rootage (Sudeten land had similar bad history but it was somehow different stories in regard to worse drinking behaviour of new inhabitans - their selection) but on the other hand is it realy so big problem NOW?

Call it social force of inhertia influencing individuals, a pattern of adopted behaviour, where risky drinking and drinking too much amount of alcohol is a social norm. The second thing is low power of social and institutional bounds and control (typical for rapidly developing big cities for example)... Yes it's changing very slowly but is still problem... Another negative aspect was a nature of communist government and feeling that my fate was beyond personal control - what was true. Partisans from Home Army couldn't in majority to make any career in People's Poland... another story are traumatic experiences fro war and post war period.


What you mean by temporary reality? - this is democracy and (to some extend) free market ie there is always uncentainty whether you will keep your job next day or whether there will be better opportunities in another part of country/EU. "no depended on them" - but it depends now. It is up to them what they do and how and where.

sorry for this of-topic


It's simple Most Poles living in recovered territories had not belived that they will be Polish land till the beginning of 1990's. Most grandpas of mine and my friends used to tell that they were living in a "strange" place. In language there were a differentiation between "here" and "in our place" what meant the land they came from. The physical aspect of that was law rate of individual investments and bad shape of real estates, roads and other infrastructure in rural areas and in some bigger cities... There were villages where between 1944-1989 were build only a school, store and sometimes post office. Houses were only repaired but not modernized etc.. It started changing aboy 18-16 years ago...

Our generation started to adopt another meaning of "our place" wthout complexes. There's a group of modern writers from Wrocław who writes their books in scenery of pre 2nd war Breslau.

[saturnin]

OK thanks for reply :)

[Chiptox]

common fear yes, but bootlegging is not an easy task, you need the necessary equipment and knowledge. This needs to go with strong laws for bootleggers, i.e. high jail times, etc...
Making alcohol is actually pretty easy and simple. Sugar, water, and yeast for a mash. Let it ferment. Then boil off the alcohol in a modified pot with a tube and thermometer attached.

Making Hollandaise sauce is more difficult and complicated.

[Flamming_Python]

Exactly, but heirs adopt a behavioral pattern of their ancestors...

We In Poland have the main problem with addictions and crimnal rate above average (both alcoholic an narcotics), except big cities, or towns forcibly industrialized in communist times like Konin in so called Recovered or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories)Regained Territories: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories)

The second and third generation falls in addiction trap, they still do not believe that fundamental basis of their existence is up to them... They live in so called temporary reality, not depended on them...

I keep hearing these analysis' from you and other right-wing members, about how people's psychology and thinking processes are so traumatized due to communism; that they become alcoholics, addicts, etc...

BS, these people's behavior is due to a collapsed life-style and bad prospects for the future, and this has come about exactly because of capitalism, the large sell-off's of industry to foreign banks, few employment opportunities as a result of 'market forces' (scrapping of profitable and potentially profitable enterprises in return for quick profit for traders), corruption of local bureaucracies and administrations making life harder for working people, stupid policies by governments in refusing to recognize commie-era qualifications and experience, worse health-care, etc... This is common all throughout post-communist Eastern Europe and the former USSR.

[saturnin]

I keep hearing these analysis' from you and other right-wing members, about how people's psychology and thinking processes are so traumatized due to communism; that they become alcoholics, addicts, etc...

BS, these people's behavior is due to a collapsed life-style and bad prospects for the future, and this has come about exactly because of capitalism, the large sell-off's of industry to foreign banks, few employment opportunities as a result of 'market forces' (scrapping of profitable and potentially profitable enterprises in return for quick profit for traders), corruption of local bureaucracies and administrations making life harder for working people, stupid policies by governments in refusing to recognize commie-era qualifications and experience, worse health-care, etc... This is common all throughout post-communist Eastern Europe and the former USSR.

1) with all respect you should get your head out of your ass. My grandmother´s brother became for a year a alcoholics during communism - how that happened? - well, he fought at western front and get on black list of communist - was in jail for three years as "enemy of people". When he get out (in early sixties communist regime in Czechoslovakia tried to became more friendly to people... but you know how that ended...) his family firm which existed for four generation was lost to communist. His one children emigrated early just in time to prevent persecution. His second son was talented men - but with his family tight no way ho to get to colledge... - so he started to drink and than get together and escaped when it was possible and borders was open for short time (68...)

communist caused people to became alcoholics. Communist created situation when creative, educated, inteligent people was forced to work as boilerman, cleaner, bricklayer with no prospect for future. Communist violently separated many families. Young people was exclueded from schools because of their famili origin, old people who are very senstitive to their home was forced to leave because of many monster project during communist etc.

2) so why it happened so heavily in post-communist Eastern Europe and didn´t occured - IN SUCH LEVEL - in some post-communist central Europe?

keep in mind what sometimes change from communist to democracy was about: I remind one primary school visit to farm (ex družstvo...) and our tearcher asked this "farmer" what revolution bring to people? he didn´t know what to say in front of people and after a while said: you see this two "loosers" (not exact translation but cannot find proper one) drinking beer over there? when there was communist they get minimal wage and they drinked all the day in dairy cow housing, they had to be employed because it was law. Now, they have no job but get social help from state and still drinking all the day.......

3) please keep in mind what realy makes man alcoholics is ONLY and ONLY their mind and psyche. It is up to you whether you became alcoholic in bad situation or not. Some people sometimes tend to drink when they cannot solve their problem. Some people don´t even need any problem to start drinking. Some people will never drink even if situation is desperate. What we can discuss is whether some social system (democrac x totalitarism) in different economical situation create more problems and desperate situation to this people. + You should not forget then while there is some freedom of act ("democracy") you have chance to change the situation (ie you have HOPE) but if you are persona non granta for communist regime you have no hope (besides emigration or revolution)

[Switek]

....

BS, these people's behavior is due to a collapsed life-style and bad prospects for the future, and this has come about exactly because of capitalism, the large sell-off's of industry to foreign banks, few employment opportunities as a result of 'market forces' (scrapping of profitable and potentially profitable enterprises in return for quick profit for traders), corruption of local bureaucracies and administrations making life harder for working people, stupid policies by governments in refusing to recognize commie-era qualifications and experience, worse health-care, etc... This is common all throughout post-communist Eastern Europe and the former USSR.


You've just proved my words... People go to addiction when they feel they lost control over their life. The reason is secondary matter... I agree I made a simplification but average Russians life is and always has been in permanent crisis due many factors..

[Flamming_Python]

1) with all respect you should get your head out of your ass. My grandmother´s brother became for a year a alcoholics during communism - how that happened? - well, he fought at western front and get on black list of communist - was in jail for three years as "enemy of people". When he get out (in early sixties communist regime in Czechoslovakia tried to became more friendly to people... but you know how that ended...) his family firm which existed for four generation was lost to communist. His one children emigrated early just in time to prevent persecution. His second son was talented men - but with his family tight no way ho to get to colledge... - so he started to drink and than get together and escaped when it was possible and borders was open for short time (68...)

WTF has all this got to do with anything? Yes, it's true that people became alcoholics due to such reasons as well; although it was hardly a common occurance for one to be thrown into a KGB cell or get listed as an enemy of the people, even less to end up as an alcoholic because of it (as traumatising as it must have been).

However, in terms of the scale of the upheavals in the late 80's and early 90's, none of this stuff even compares. Far more people became alcoholics during this period than all the others since WW2 combined; and the reasons for this were exactly the ones I listed in my previous post.


communist caused people to became alcoholics. Communist created situation when creative, educated, inteligent people was forced to work as boilerman, cleaner, bricklayer with no prospect for future. Communist violently separated many families. Young people was exclueded from schools because of their famili origin, old people who are very senstitive to their home was forced to leave because of many monster project during communist etc.I disagree, communists on the contrary performed very rapid industrialisation, urbanisation, mass-housing, literacy and education campaigns that made it possible for huge amounts of smart people living in the rural countryside to abandon their peasent lifestyle, move to the cities, and live to see their sons and daughters go through a thorough education system, graduate from university, be trained as specialists and enjoy all the benefits of modern society.

Anyway, this is again irrelevant to the topic at hand. During the Afghan war, there were a great many war veterans coming back that turned straight to alcohol upon their return; there was a real crisis. Should we blame the communist system for this? No, it was nothing to do with communism; it was to do with young guys getting conscripted into the army and being sent to fight in a brutal war.


2) so why it happened so heavily in post-communist Eastern Europe and didn´t occured - IN SUCH LEVEL - in some post-communist central Europe?Well quite simply, in Russia the whole transition period and 'level' was worse; the whole period from 1985-1999 was a complete disaster where no progress was made (and what progress was made regressed later during the economic crashes), only decay and further depredation. I mean the USSR ceased to exist and cracked into 15 parts; and you had all the wars and instability that resulted as well.

For Eastern & Central Europe on the other hand, with the exception of Yugoslavia, everything went peacefully, including the seperation of the Czech Republic and Slovakia. And in economical and political terms, the EU provided massive assistance and a soft cushion so to speak, that meant that the transition period was far shorter and Eastern European countries were able to commence development again after a few years, well before the end of the 90's. This process was even smoother for the countries close to the developed West, such as Poland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, etc... although some still got screwed, such as East Germany which has many problems even now.


keep in mind what sometimes change from communist to democracy was about: I remind one primary school visit to farm (ex družstvo...) and our tearcher asked this "farmer" what revolution bring to people? he didn´t know what to say in front of people and after a while said: you see this two "loosers" (not exact translation but cannot find proper one) drinking beer over there? when there was communist they get minimal wage and they drinked all the day in dairy cow housing, they had to be employed because it was law. Now, they have no job but get social help from state and still drinking all the day.......Sounds like the same people are just as useless now as then, neither communism or capitalism has anything to do with such people; they will leech off the system regardless. Yet there are also plenty of people, that actually were very productive in communist times, yet do nothing but drink nowadays. I don't think I've heard of anyone before, who was useless in communist times, but makes a good living now; the socialist system did a good job in sorting out those who're capable of working from those that aren't :)


3) please keep in mind what realy makes man alcoholics is ONLY and ONLY their mind and psyche. It is up to you whether you became alcoholic in bad situation or not. Some people sometimes tend to drink when they cannot solve their problem. Some people don´t even need any problem to start drinking. Some people will never drink even if situation is desperate. What we can discuss is whether some social system (democrac x totalitarism) in different economical situation create more problems and desperate situation to this people. + Of course it's ultimately up to the individual, but we are talking statistics here. The fact is, the more the government bolloxes up the situation and fails to take into account the interests of its own people, including the one's near the bottom of society or the one's close to falling to it; the more alcholics that society is going to end up with.


You should not forget then while there is some freedom of act ("democracy") you have chance to change the situation (ie you have HOPE) but if you are persona non granta for communist regime you have no hope (besides emigration or revolution)You can also become a persona non-grata in a capitalist system for whatever number of reasons (made enemies of powerful businessmen, have been bankrupted, etc...), and than life becomes pretty harsh as well; banks will not loan you money if you have a patchy record, your property could be taken away if you can't pay your debts, people won't invest in your businesses, and in general you will probably be doomed to a life where you are exploited for your labour in low-skilled jobs. Many such problems didn't exist in socialist Eastern Europe, although they did have their equivalents as you pointed out.