In Germany Court says Nazi Slogan is Legal in English

[tusiki]

English Nazi Slogans Are Legal, German Court Rules

Using Nazi symbols and slogans is a punishable crime in Germany. But now neo-Nazis may have more leeway after a federal German court ruled that slogans are not illegal if they are translated into another language.


Is a Nazi slogan still a Nazi slogan if it is uttered in English instead of German? Not necessarily -- at least according to Germany's Federal Court of Justice.

In a landmark decision Thursday, the Karlsruhe-based court ruled that using Nazi slogans translated into a language other than German would not, in general, be a punishable crime.

The ruling is linked to a case in which a neo-Nazi was prosecuted and fined €4,200 ($6,000) in 2005 for distributing clothing and merchandising bearing the slogan "Blood and Honour," written in English. With the ruling, the court overturned the verdict against the neo-Nazi, who was not named, but said it could still be possible to prosecute him under other laws relating to right-wing extremism.


Although "Blood and Honour," which is also the name of a banned far-right organization, alludes to the Hitler Youth motto "Blut und Ehre," the court ruled that translating the words represented a "fundamental change" in the slogan, meaning its use was no longer punishable under German law. The judges said that Nazi slogans were characterized not only by their actual meaning but also by the fact that they were in German.

Senior judge Jörg-Peter Becker said that the court "is aware that its decision gives neo-Nazis a degree of leeway to translate their chants and slogans." However, he added that legislation by itself is not enough to eliminate Nazi ideas from public discourse.


Giving the Hitler salute or using symbols or slogans associated with "unconstitutional" organizations such as the Nazi party is a serious crime in Germany, punishable by up to three years in prison. In 2008, police launched an investigation after a senior member of the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD) draped a banned swastika flag across a coffin at a funeral.


cox -- wire reports

source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,642288,00.html

:roll:

[Arfah]

The title sucks btw.

You've made it read as 'English Nazi's' which is a misinterpretation.

There are Nazi's in the U.K. and they're all cnuts btw.

As for the article, any slogan or emblem can be hijacked for political purposes be they good or bad. I think Nazism should be illegal but the banning of slogans in any language is an attack on freedom of speech.


We also get alot of WWII Nazi reenactor's in the U.K. from Germany so they can don their SS uniforms and regalia without reproach. Then again, in the U.K. they're dressed up as 'evil losers.' :-)

[Warrigal]

Nazis have and always will suck.

[Eagle The Lightning]

I thought it was about English Nazis when I read the title as well, but it is about German Nazis using their slogans in a different language which is stupid because it still means the same thing.

[Herman the II]

I'm not a friend of those bans and censorship laws anyway. If those idiots want to talk stupid just let them.

[tusiki]

The title sucks btw.

You've made it read as 'English Nazi's' which is a misinterpretation.

There are Nazi's in the U.K. and they're all cnuts btw.

As for the article, any slogan or emblem can be hijacked for political purposes be they good or bad. I think Nazism should be illegal but the banning of slogans in any language is an attack on freedom of speech.


We also get alot of WWII Nazi reenactor's in the U.K. from Germany so they can don their SS uniforms and regalia without reproach. Then again, in the U.K. they're dressed up as 'evil losers.' :-)
So it's a truth. perplexing Brits you are.

[tusiki]

I thought it was about English Nazis when I read the title as well, but it is about German Nazis using their slogans in a different language which is stupid because it still means the same thing.
Went to U.K. to had a Nazi-carnival, then back to Germany and be wished to be gentlemen.

The thing was too complex to understood. :-(

[Warrigal]

You may need to find a better translater, mate.

[LineDoggie]

Yoda school of English graduate you are?

[tusiki]

You may need to find a better translater, mate.
If you had some problems to understand my expresions, I'll try to do better conversion of my mind for you.

[tusiki]

Yoda school of English graduate you are?
Sorry, I didn't.

[seraosha]

Yoda school of English graduate you are?


Sorry, I didn't.

You just can't make this up, +1 internets to you both.

[Eagle The Lightning]

http://i29.tinypic.com/r785tg.jpg

[OrangeWolf]

In my country the Neo-Nazis walk with flags of Palestine and Iran. Not to forget the keffiyah, which they too wear nowadays. Heck, there are even "autonome national socialists" who squat buildings. Pretty much all the topics they use to demonstrate about are akin with members of the International Socialists.

The sad fact is, when a right wing idiot minimizes the holocaust in history he is jailed. But when you compare a certain conflict with a death toll minimal to the holocaust it is all fine. You can say the sad situation of Gaza is a camp like Auschwitz and it is ok.

The rules to restrict right wing extremists political behavior means f***-all when you have left wing fanatics who are just as extreme, often using similar arguments as Nazis.

That's why I think all the anti-Nazi laws are hypocrite as long as the government doesn't stamp on Leftist activists (not saying they should restrict their freedom too, it is just a weird situation)

[tusiki]

Sadly, my grammar was suck, but my mind was not suck.

I'll keep reading and learning. Bye. :roll:

[GB_FXST]

In my country the Neo-Nazis walk with flags of Palestine and Iran. Not to forget the keffiyah, which they too wear nowadays. Heck, there are even "autonome national socialists" who squat buildings. Pretty much all the topics they use to demonstrate about are akin with members of the International Socialists.

The sad fact is, when a right wing idiot minimizes the holocaust in history he is jailed. But when you compare a certain conflict with a death toll minimal to the holocaust it is all fine. You can say the sad situation of Gaza is a camp like Auschwitz and it is ok.

The rules to restrict right wing extremists political behavior means f***-all when you have left wing fanatics who are just as extreme, often using similar arguments as Nazis.

That's why I think all the anti-Nazi laws are hypocrite as long as the government doesn't stamp on Leftist activists (not saying they should restrict their freedom too, it is just a weird situation)

The Nazis and the loony left have common cause in their shared hatred of Jews. Similar to Sunnis and Shia, the loony left and Nazis ignore their ideological difference in order to pursue a “higher” common cause, Jew bashing, or its PC equivalent, Israel bashing.

I too do not think that suppression of free-speech is the answer. But, you are correct to note the loony left gets a pass where others do not. Therefore, IMHO, the loony left presents the greater threat.

[Holmes85]

This story comes from *******: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090814/od_nm/us_nazis_1

Never Mind this is a Repost, Just Ignore it.


BERLIN (*******) – Nazis slogans banned in Germany may be legal if they are translated from German into English, one of the country's highest courts has ruled.

The Federal Court of Justice said it had rescinded a conviction against a man fined 4,200 euros ($5,993) for possessing 100 T-shirts due for sale emblazoned with the words "Blood & Honor" -- a translation of the Hitler Youth slogan "Blut und Ehre."

The display of Nazi symbols is forbidden in Germany, but the court said the context of the original phrase had been sufficiently distorted to render its usage legal. "By translation into another language, the Nazi slogan, which is characterized not just by its meaning but also by the German language, is fundamentally transformed," it said.

The court added, however, that the man could still be convicted of using the English phrase "Blood & Honor" because it was also the name of a far-right organization that is banned in Germany, but that the original verdict had not considered this.

(Writing by Dave Graham; editing by Robin Pomeroy)

[digrar]

Yeah it's a repost, but your thread title makes more sense. I've borrowed it for the merge.

[Eye]

The court added, however, that the man could still be convicted of using the English phrase "Blood & Honor" because it was also the name of a far-right organization that is banned in Germany, but that the original verdict had not considered this.


One mention. Every kind of socialism is definitely leftist ideology, so it's far left organization - not far right.

[OrangeWolf]

One mention. Every kind of socialism is definitely leftist ideology, so it's far left organization - not far right.

Yeah. Neo-nazi activists share way more opinions with their so-called "enemies" the International Socialist activists. The neo-Nazi leader in my country even said if I cannot vote on my own party in my district I vote for the Socialist Party, lol. But they do share a hell of a lot of points, especially when it comes to the US, Israel, protectionist economic policy nowadays even about the army (like in Germany you got neo-Nazis marching for peace, lol).

[BlackFlag]

Sadly, my grammar was suck, but my mind was not suck.

I'll keep reading and learning. Bye. :roll:

I think I like you.

[Mackie]

This rule is not a free card to walk with translated symbols and insignias through public streets. The police have still the right to confiscate it when it provoke the public.
Same happens to people using the Reichsflagge till now.

[Basillicus]

This nazi symbol & slogan ban is very stupid idea in the first place and makes no sense today. It may have had some idea during the "denazification" after the war but today it's just a relic, and the whole idea of such censorship is sort of... facist.

[Mackie]

This nazi symbol & slogan ban is very stupid idea in the first place and makes no sense today. It may have had some idea during the "denazification" after the war but today it's just a relic, and the whole idea of such censorship is sort of... facist.

The Nazi ideology is so crap and unacceptable that this ban don't hurt the rights of normal people and the society. I don't want to see Nazi symbols on our streets. Let me say this it's a comfortable law.
And it's not facist because it's an individual law against a facist group and not possible to use it against democratic parties.

[Basillicus]

The Nazi ideology is so crap and unacceptable that this ban don't hurt the rights of normal people and the society. I don't want to see Nazi symbols on our streets. Let me say this it's a comfortable law.
And it's not facist because it's an individual law against a facist group and not possible to use it against democratic parties.

The idea that it is OK to ban things that you don't personally like is untenable. And where would you draw the line which party is democratic and which is undemocratic? It's pretty much impossible. Giving neonazis this kind of special status just works for them by mystifying nazisms, like it would be something so powerful that even it's symbols must be banned by law in order to stop it from taking over Germany. While in fact the nazis today are just a small group of uneducated knobheads and it doesn't make any difference what kind of flags they are carrying in their rallies.

[Mackie]

The idea that it is OK to ban things that you don't personally like is untenable. And where would you draw the line which party is democratic and which is undemocratic? It's pretty much impossible. Giving neonazis this kind of special status just works for them by mystifying nazisms, like it would be something so powerful that even it's symbols must be banned by law in order to stop it from taking over Germany. While in fact the nazis today are just a small group of uneducated knobheads and it doesn't make any difference what kind of flags they are carrying in their rallies.

Your opinion. I say it's comfortable to ban their symbols.
And they are undemocratic. Man, they are Neo-Nazis and not only right wingers.
Mystifying nazisms or being special don't work, especially with this law.
The NSDAP was the the evil version of "Change". Hitler ran a superior campaign and symbols and insignias were a major part of it.
So why we should allow them to show this part?
Swastika flaggs on the streets of Berlin? No way man!

[quinsen]

Now it's official: The german language is evil. :roll:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

In my country the Neo-Nazis walk with flags of Palestine and Iran. Not to forget the keffiyah, which they too wear nowadays. Heck, there are even "autonome national socialists" who squat buildings. Pretty much all the topics they use to demonstrate about are akin with members of the International Socialists.

The sad fact is, when a right wing idiot minimizes the holocaust in history he is jailed. But when you compare a certain conflict with a death toll minimal to the holocaust it is all fine. You can say the sad situation of Gaza is a camp like Auschwitz and it is ok.

The rules to restrict right wing extremists political behavior means f***-all when you have left wing fanatics who are just as extreme, often using similar arguments as Nazis.

That's why I think all the anti-Nazi laws are hypocrite as long as the government doesn't stamp on Leftist activists (not saying they should restrict their freedom too, it is just a weird situation)Probably the main reason Euro governments are down on the Nazis is the big assed body count they racked up a while back while Euro leftists mostly just write books, protest, occupy buildings and maybe whack the odd industrialist.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The Nazis and the loony left have common cause in their shared hatred of Jews. Similar to Sunnis and Shia, the loony left and Nazis ignore their ideological difference in order to pursue a “higher” common cause, Jew bashing, or its PC equivalent, Israel bashing.

I too do not think that suppression of free-speech is the answer. But, you are correct to note the loony left gets a pass where others do not. Therefore, IMHO, the loony left presents the greater threat.
The Loony Left has issues with Israel rather than Jewish folk and probably right up to the Lebanon war the average Euro leftist was an Israel fan boy. Having issues with Israel and the occupation is not always about disliking Jewish folk people or Jewish culture, maybe you should read more leftist literature and see how many have serious issues they have with Islamic culture.

[PeterRJG]

Now it's official: The german language is evil. :roll:

It's officially been evil for centuries. Nothing new to see here.

[Basillicus]

Your opinion. I say it's comfortable to ban their symbols.
And they are undemocratic. Man, they are Neo-Nazis and not only right wingers.
Mystifying nazisms or being special don't work, especially with this law.
The NSDAP was the the evil version of "Change". Hitler ran a superior campaign and symbols and insignias were a major part of it.
So why we should allow them to show this part?
Swastika flaggs on the streets of Berlin? No way man!

Do you think there suddenly would be "Hitler-Fahnen über allen Straßen" if they were allowed?

And why would the success of nazi shows be dependend on some abstract shapes like swastika without which they would fail? Those Germans who were amazed by these spectacles in the 1930's are either very old or dead so it doesn't really matter if symbolism somehow brings back "nazi flashbacks" for them and they feel sudden urge to vote for Hitler.

[Connaught Ranger]

This nazi symbol & slogan ban is very stupid idea in the first place and makes no sense today. It may have had some idea during the "denazification" after the war but today it's just a relic, and the whole idea of such censorship is sort of... facist.

Tell that to the people who had to endure life under such a symbol. :roll:

[Basillicus]

Tell that to the people who had to endure life under such a symbol. :roll:

You can in turn tell to those millions of people who have had to endure under hammer and sickle why communist symbols are not banned and responsible people are not convicted.

Although I think it hardly makes difference those people if some symbol is banned or not. People have been murdered and persecuted under all kinds of symbols during the entire history of mankind but nazi symbols are pretty much the only ones that have been banned. It makes no sense.

[Eye]

Tell that to the people who had to endure life under such a symbol. :roll:
I had to endure life under soviet symbols and unfortunately I can buy items with such symbols in whole Poland and in the middle of Berlin too. Officially and without any problem .

[Connaught Ranger]

You can in turn tell to those millions of people who have had to endure under hammer and sickle why communist symbols are not banned and responsible people are not convicted.

Well, I do not see any hammer & sickle symbols being worn in Romania at the moment, as far as I know its illegal in Romania, and you can see the Red Star in War Cemeteries.

Although I think it hardly makes difference those people if some symbol is banned or not. People have been murdered and persecuted under all kinds of symbols during the entire history of mankind but nazi symbols are pretty much the only ones that have been banned. It makes no sense.

Well, I respect the choice made by the people at the time, if the symbol is banned, its banned until its put to the vote by the people.

[GB_FXST]

The Loony Left has issues with Israel rather than Jewish folk and probably right up to the Lebanon war the average Euro leftist was an Israel fan boy. Having issues with Israel and the occupation is not always about disliking Jewish folk people or Jewish culture, maybe you should read more leftist literature and see how many have serious issues they have with Islamic culture.

Other than Oriana Fallacia and David Horowitz, I am unaware of any leftists who have “serious issues with Islamic cultures.” Horowitz is probably not even a good example, as he disavowed his leftist roots a long time ago. At any rate, IMHO, the silence from the left on the Islamic misogyny, religious intolerance, gay bashing, censorship, etc., is simply deafening. Advocacy on those sorts of issues is generally a mainstay of the left; but, apparently not when practiced in Islamic countries.

Now, I will admit that I am no fan of leftist literature. I was never fond of media such as NPR, Mother Jones and The Nation, but have wholly abandoned them when their shrill anti-Israel diatribes accelerated to ludicrous speed.

At any rate, I would welcome any references you may have that counter my assertion in the first paragraph.

Oh and by the way, I think your timeline is off about 15 years; the left abandoned Israel after Israel’s victory in 1967. The Six Day war heralded two significant changes: 1) Israel was no longer the under-dog; and, 2) Israel became firmly aligned with the US.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

However, he added that legislation by itself is not enough to eliminate Nazi ideas from public discourse.

Thank you. Who said judges can't have good sense every once in a while?

[Vandervahn]

This nazi symbol & slogan ban is very stupid idea in the first place and makes no sense today. It may have had some idea during the "denazification" after the war but today it's just a relic, and the whole idea of such censorship is sort of... facist.


The Nazi ideology is so crap and unacceptable that this ban don't hurt the rights of normal people and the society. I don't want to see Nazi symbols on our streets. Let me say this it's a comfortable law.
And it's not facist because it's an individual law against a facist group and not possible to use it against democratic parties.

I feel there is some clearing up necessary; there is no "ban" on Nazi insignia in Germany.

The law also does not prohibit the use of Nazi symbols explicitly, it prohibits the use of insignia (including slogans) of all recognized unconstitutional organisations with the intend to spread them and/or for political purposes ; it allows their use for pretty much all other purposes.



Now it's official: The german language is evil. :roll:

"Blut und Ehre" is a recognized slogan used by the Hitler Youth, which was an organ of the outlawed NSDAP. When you translate that slogan into another language, it is arguably no longer a Hitler Youth slogan.

Thats all there is to that court ruling.

[loganinkosovo]

So......do we use "Arbeit Macht Frei" or "Work makes you Free" when we throw all these slaphead neo-nazi's in Auschwitz?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

At any rate, I would welcome any references you may have that counter my assertion in the first paragraph.

Oh and by the way, I think your timeline is off about 15 years; the left abandoned Israel after Israel’s victory in 1967. The Six Day war heralded two significant changes: 1) Israel was no longer the under-dog; and, 2) Israel became firmly aligned with the US.Without ripping open boxes of cuttings as yet digitized I can off the top of my head give a couple of well known left leaning critics of certain Islamic ideals Salman Rushdie being the best known along with Taslima Nasreen and Philippe Val of journal Charlie Hebdo which is very Left but often publishes critiques of Islam and the Middle East. If you veer into modern Marxist writings you find Islam being portrayed as backward and foolish.

[Basillicus]

Well, I respect the choice made by the people at the time, if the symbol is banned, its banned until its put to the vote by the people.

Was it even a democratic choice made by the people or something installed by Allied denazification authorities? Not that it really matters, I do not and never will respect laws that I feel are wrong even if they are a product of democratic process.

[bababooey]

I'm not a friend of those bans and censorship laws anyway. If those idiots want to talk stupid just let them.
X2 As moronic as it is, let them be dumb amongst themselves.

[GB_FXST]

Without ripping open boxes of cuttings as yet digitized I can off the top of my head give a couple of well known left leaning critics of certain Islamic ideals Salman Rushdie being the best known along with Taslima Nasreen and Philippe Val of journal Charlie Hebdo which is very Left but often publishes critiques of Islam and the Middle East. If you veer into modern Marxist writings you find Islam being portrayed as backward and foolish.

Thank you for the references. Yet, another excuse to play with google … :)

I did take a look Taslima Nasreen’s website; an impressive, admirable person. I found it interesting that Nasreens’ website post a letter of solidarity from Bat Ye’or.

A question if I may, I wonder why you consider her a leftist? She is definitely a humanist, but so are some conservatives or rightists. In other words, are her political view really to the left? Is she maybe instead apolitical?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Thank you for the references. Yet, another excuse to play with google … :)

I did take a look Taslima Nasreen’s website; an impressive, admirable person. I found it interesting that Nasreens’ website post a letter of solidarity from Bat Ye’or.

A question if I may, I wonder why you consider her a leftist? She is definitely a humanist, but so are some conservatives or rightists. In other words, are her political view really to the left? Is she maybe instead apolitical?
Probably one of those writers who would if asked would say that they are apolitical but write in left leaning vein, read any of her writings and you will realise its not centrist or right leaning and was mostly until recently found only in left leaning publications. Bernard-Henri Lévy is another writer that is anti Marxist and has been since the 60’s that is also very critical of Islamic and Arab attitudes but at the same time is fawned over by the left especially the progressive left.

[GB_FXST]

Probably one of those writers who would if asked would say that they are apolitical but write in left leaning vein, read any of her writings and you will realise its not centrist or right leaning and was mostly until recently found only in left leaning publications. Bernard-Henri Lévy is another writer that is anti Marxist and has been since the 60’s that is also very critical of Islamic and Arab attitudes but at the same time is fawned over by the left especially the progressive left.

I am not sure about the progressive left, but others under that general umbrella do not seem to like BHL:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2516/ (http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2516/)

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f555be7f-dd65-4941-bfa7-a5197b5e8bbe (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f555be7f-dd65-4941-bfa7-a5197b5e8bbe) (Select TalkBack comments)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I am not sure about the progressive left, but others under that general umbrella do not seem to like BHL:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2516/ (http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2516/)

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f555be7f-dd65-4941-bfa7-a5197b5e8bbe (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f555be7f-dd65-4941-bfa7-a5197b5e8bbe) (Select TalkBack comments)When you consider the Marxist roots of many writers on the left it is no surprise he gets the odd hatchet job done on him every now and again.

[GB_FXST]

When you consider the Marxist roots of many writers on the left it is no surprise he gets the odd hatchet job done on him every now and again.

At what point does someone like BHL cease to be part of the vanguard, and become more of a contrarian or gadfly?

But to return to the original issue at hand, the loony left and anti-Semitism. I do think that the loony left is infested with it, and consequently, any leftist critique of Israel is tainted with it.

Credibility and common ground are perquisites for any serious discussion on this subject. However, common ground and trust has eroded to nothingness. In its place, I find irrational vitriol.

Without belaboring examples, the push to de-legitimize Israel is rife with double standards and hypocrisy, especially considering that true humanitarian crises are given such short shrift.

Why the almost atavistic response to perceived “crimes” of Israel?

I simply conclude it is function of hatred or lunacy or both.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I think many members of the loony left are racist towards many groups actually.

Not only Israel, but many of these people consider themselves morally and intellectually superior to anyone who is not a member of the loony left.

I find their attitudes towards many non-westerners as well as some segments of the population in western nations (read: People who value tradition, patriotism and heritage) to be extremely condescending at best and hateful at worst.

They amount to a new form of colonialist thought in my opinion.

[ren0312]

This rule is not a free card to walk with translated symbols and insignias through public streets. The police have still the right to confiscate it when it provoke the public.
Same happens to people using the Reichsflagge till now.

So if I drive a rental car and I have the old imperial German flag as my bumper sticker I will get arrested?

[Connaught Ranger]

So if I drive a rental car and I have the old imperial German flag as my bumper sticker I will get arrested?

Not unless there is a swastika on it as well rofl

I attended many militaria shows in Germany while visiting and living there, all the offending insignias and badges had to be covered (Swas and ss on medals and badges had to be covered with a sticker, uniform insignia had to have a piece of paper pinned over it, the police patrolled amongst the tables looking for infractions) as its illegal to display them in public, its not illegal to own them, its illegal to show them.

You can sell out Nazi Insignia and items from Germany, but, you cannot bring it into the country.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[GB_FXST]

Megaraptor;4343973']I think many members of the loony left are racist towards many groups actually.

Not only Israel, but many of these people consider themselves morally and intellectually superior to anyone who is not a member of the loony left.

I find their attitudes towards many non-westerners as well as some segments of the population in western nations (read: People who value tradition, patriotism and heritage) to be extremely condescending at best and hateful at worst.

They amount to a new form of colonialist thought in my opinion.

Agree. Israel is not the only issue where the loony left is simply hysterical to the point of hateful irrationality. Attacks on religion, patriotism and the constitution in the US are other prime examples.

[quinsen]

So if I drive a rental car and I have the old imperial German flag as my bumper sticker I will get arrested?
In Germany it depends on the situation. Generally you won't be asked to remove it by the police or even get removed it by them. But many neo-nazis are using the old imperial Reichskriegsflagge, because it's legal (no swastika), anti-democratic (in their mind and the mind of lots of leftys..) and contains the colors black-white-red. So if it's used in the context as a sign of anti-democratic or racial behaviour it could be possible to get removed and the owner gets fined.
Due to the neo-nazis, today it's almost completely connected to them if it's shown in public. So, I wouldn't drive with a bumper sticker here, especially because I don't want to get broken windows on my car or other damages by left criminals.