In Dresden, High Culture and Ugly Reality Clash

[cltknight]

DRESDEN, Germany — In early July thousands of mourners took to the streets in Egypt, chanting “Down with Germany.” Thousands more Arabs and Muslims joined them in protests in Berlin. In Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad added to the outcry by denouncing German “brutali
The provocation was the murder on July 1 of Marwa al-Sherbini, a pregnant Egyptian pharmacist here. She was stabbed 18 times in a Dresden courtroom, in front of her 3-year-old son, judges and other witnesses, reportedly by the man appealing a fine for having insulted Ms. Sherbini in a park. Identified by German authorities only as a 28-year-old Russian-born German named Alex W., he had called Ms. Sherbini an Islamist, a terrorist and a slut when she asked him to make room for her son on the playground swings. Ms. Sherbini wore a head scarf.

The killer also stabbed Elwi Okaz, Ms. Sherbini’s husband and a genetic research scientist, who was critically wounded as he tried to defend her. The police, arriving late on the scene, mistook him for the attacker and shot him in the leg.

More than a week passed before the German government, responding to rising anger across the Arab world, expressed words of sorrow while stressing that the attack did occur during the prosecution of a racist and that the accused man was originally from Russia.

Dresden is one of the great cultural capitals of Europe. It is also the capital of Saxony, a former part of East Germany that, along with having a reputation as Silicon Saxony, has made more than a few headlines in recent years for incidents of xenophobia and right-wing extremism. One wonders how to reconcile the heights of the city’s culture with the gutter of these events.

This year’s annual report of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, Germany’s domestic intelligence agency, showed that far-right crime rose last year by 16 percent across the country. Most of these offenses were classified as propaganda crimes — painting swastikas on Jewish headstones or smashing the windows of restaurants run by immigrants — but politically motivated violent acts like murder, arson and assault accounted for 1,042 of the nearly 20,000 crimes recorded, a rise of 6.3 percent over 2007.

And these violent crimes turned out to be far more commonplace in parts of the former East Germany. Saxony, with roughly 5 percent of the country’s population, accounted for 12 percent of the violence classified as far right in nature, the report said.

These days Dresden’s center, once obliterated by Allied bombs, is a marvel of civility, a restored Baroque fairyland surrounded by Socialist-era and post-Socialist-era sprawl. The rebuilt Frauenkirche, the great Baroque cathedral where Bach played, again marks the skyline with its bell-shaped dome, as it did for centuries.

The ruin of the Frauenkirche became a gathering spot for protests against the East German regime during Communist times. In February, as usual on the anniversary of the Allied air raids, neo-Nazis marched through the streets. Some 7,500 of them carried banners condemning the “bombing holocaust.” They were outnumbered, Spiegel Online reported, by anti-Nazi demonstrators, but 7,500 was nonetheless twice as many neo-Nazis as showed up last year.

The other day only the benign clop-clop of horse-drawn carriages sounded across the cobblestone square outside the cathedral, the carriages bouncing camera-toting tourists past high-end jewelry shops and overpriced cafes. Nearby, the Zwinger palace, perhaps the most beautiful of all Baroque complexes, attracted the usual supplicants to Raphael’s Sistine Madonna, which was paired in the Gemäldegalerie with an African sculpture.

Germany is now a bastion of democracy in the heart of Europe. But the far right is on the rise across the Continent, and xenophobia is gaining in this country, not least among youth and not least singling out Muslims. A recent two-year government survey of 20,000 German teenagers classified one in seven as “highly xenophobic” and another 26.2 percent as “fairly xenophobic.”

“It was known that the figures were high,” Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble said. “But I’m appalled that they’re this high.


The newspaper Tagesspiegel reported that Alex W. asked Ms. Sherbini in the courtroom, “Do you have a right to be in Germany at all?” before warning her that “when the N.D.P. comes to power, there’ll be an end to that.”


The far-right National Democratic Party, a marginal but noisy troublemaker on the German political scene with a tiny official membership (some 7,000), is as strong in Saxony as it is anywhere. Recent polls have routinely shown its support in the state as nearing 10 percent of the population; it claims 8 seats out of the 124 in the state parliament in Dresden. On Tuesday the party issued a statement calling for a black politician, Zeca Schall, working on regional elections in Thuringia for the ruling Christian Democratic Union, “to head home to Angola.” Thuringia should “remain German,” the statement said. Mr. Schall, Angolan-born, has lived in Thuringia, another region in the former East, since 1988.

High-tech industries and research institutes like the one where Ms. Sherbini’s husband works, which recruit foreign experts, have lifted Dresden economically above much of the rest of the former East, and last year nearly 10 million tourists fattened the city’s coffers. With half a million residents, some 20,000 of them foreigners, the capital looks prosperous and charming, like its old self.

All of which gets back to the problem of reconciliation: What are the humanizing effects of culture?

Evidently, there are none.

To walk through Dresden’s museums, and past the young buskers fiddling Mozart on street corners, is to wonder whether this age-old question may have things backward. It presumes that we’re passive receivers acted on by the arts, which vouchsafe our salvation, moral and otherwise, so long as we remain in their presence. Arts promoters nowadays like to trumpet how culture helps business and tourism; how teaching painting and music in schools boosts test scores. They try to assign practical ends, dollar values and other hard numbers, never mind how dubious, to quantify what’s ultimately unquantifiable.

The lesson of Dresden, which this great city unfortunately seems doomed to repeat, is that culture is, to the contrary, impractical and fragile, helpless even. Residents of Dresden who believed, when the war was all but over, that their home had somehow been spared annihilation by its beauty were all the more traumatized when, in a matter of hours, bombs killed tens of thousands and obliterated centuries of humane and glorious architecture.

The truth is, we can stare as long as we want at that Raphael Madonna; or at Antonello da Messina’s “St. Sebastian,” now beside a Congo fetish sculpture in another room in the Gemäldegalerie; or at the shiny coffee sets, clocks and cups made of coral and mother-of-pearl and coconuts and diamonds culled from the four corners of the earth in the city’s New Green Vault, which contains the spoils of the most cultivated Saxon kings. But it won’t make sense of a senseless murder or help change the mind of a violent bigot.

What we can also do, though, is accept that while the arts won’t save us, we should save them anyway. Because the enemies of civilized society are always just outside the door

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/arts/15abroad.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

[arvo10]

"The killer also stabbed Elwi Okaz, Ms. Sherbini’s husband and a genetic research scientist, who was critically wounded as he tried to defend her. The police, arriving late on the scene, mistook him for the attacker and shot him in the leg."


:cantbeli:

[2495]

Why the fvck does Germany have to apologise or try to placate the 'outrage' from the islamic world?

It was terrible, it was brutal, it was obscene, but to rise up in islamic outrage?

Muslim world it seems just searches day and night across the net for things to get all OUTRAGED!

Time they grew up and shut the fvck up.

[cltknight]

Why the fvck does Germany have to apologise or try to placate the 'outrage' from the islamic world?

It was terrible, it was brutal, it was obscene, but to rise up in islamic outrage?

Muslim world it seems just searches day and night across the net for things to get all OUTRAGED!

Time they grew up and shut the fvck up.

Man, you need to RELAX, why are you being so sensitve:) need a hug?:)
Nobody is asking Germany to Apologize. It just make us nervous to see the NDP rising within the German political arena.

[Megaman]

Why the fvck does Germany have to apologise or try to placate the 'outrage' from the islamic world?

It was terrible, it was brutal, it was obscene, but to rise up in islamic outrage?

Muslim world it seems just searches day and night across the net for things to get all OUTRAGED!

Time they grew up and shut the fvck up.

I don't want to sound racist, but Arabs in general can get really pissed off when they feel their honor was offended. They might even find it legitimate to kill another man over something that to western eyes is merely mildly offending.

[Fireball Sanchez]

Silicon Saxony? That ........ doesn't mean what I think it does, does it?

[cltknight]

I don't want to sound racist, but Arabs in general can get really pissed off when they feel their honor was offended. They might even find it legitimate to kill another man over something that to western eyes is merely mildly offending.

I did not know that Being stabbed 18 times in a court room was midly offending by Western standards.

[Fuschimuschi]

The atmosphere in Dresden IS slighty violent though.
My girlfriend is from there and every time I visit her there I feel the difference.

If you go out weekends you really have to take care where you go and who you bump into.
No matter what is being celebrated there are always tons of riot police presents. They riot over anything. It's actually a lot quieter during football season because the violent element is always busy rioting with them.

I also would not take my asian roomate there and he wouldn't want anyway. It is way more rascist than here. I'm kinda "turkish looking" and don't really feel safe there and had some bad experiences.

[cltknight]

The atmosphere in Dresden IS slighty violent though.
My girlfriend is from there and every time I visit her there I feel the difference.

If you go out weekends you really have to take care where you go and who you bump into.
No matter what is being celebrated there are always tons of riot police presents. They riot over anything. It's actually a lot quieter during football season because the violent element is always busy rioting with them.

I also would not take my asian roomate there and he wouldn't want anyway. It is way more rascist than here. I'm kinda "turkish looking" and don't really feel safe there and had some bad experiences.

They have a very good school there in Dresden, but that about it :) it must be a DDR thing.

[The Dane]

Meh.. what happend in Dresden is terrible but it could have happend anywhere.. Muslim reactions is so childish...

[2495]

Man, you need to RELAX, why are you being so sensitve:) need a hug?:)
Nobody is asking Germany to Apologize. It just make us nervous to see the NDP rising within the German political arena.

Can't you read or some thing?


More than a week passed before the German government, responding to rising anger across the Arab world, expressed words of sorrow

Rising anger across the Arab world..

It was a crime, it was terrible, it was horrible, it deserves punishment.

However, this islamic day and night watch over the west for new things to get all OUTRAGED! over is getting fvcking tiring.

The islamic world needs to grow up and shut the fvck up. Their outrage is bloody boring now.

[cltknight]

Meh.. what happend in Dresden is terrible but it could have happend anywhere.. Muslim reactions is so childish...


Can't you read or some thing?



Rising anger across the Arab world..

It was a crime, it was terrible, it was horrible, it deserves punishment.

However, this islamic day and night watch over the west for new things to get all OUTRAGED! over is getting fvcking tiring.

The islamic world needs to grow up and shut the fvck up. Their outrage is bloody boring now.

Its funny how everyone is outraged at the over reaction of the Muslim world, but no one is worried about the rise of the Far right in Germany and Austria. Maybe since Germany has a long history with the far right, they should try to learn from their PAST.

[2495]

Its funny how everyone is outraged at the over reaction of the Muslim world, but no one is worried about the rise of the Far right in Germany and Austria.


we are more worried about the millions of muslims who want a global caliphat and the destruction of everything we in the western civilised world hold dear.

The islamic world doesn't want to meet us half way, doesn't want intergration, they want one world domination - funny that, probably why the Nazis loved them so much - they after all had so much common ground.

[cltknight]

Hello cltknight, my age-old peace, freedom and democracy-loving friend!


here's some from the other side:
Now, will You come with us to chant "down with Islam?"

Now You feel the difference, huh?

I hope you are being sarcastic.

[cltknight]

we are more worried about the millions of muslims who want a global caliphat and the destruction of everything we in the western civilised world hold dear.

The islamic world doesn't want to meet us half way, doesn't want intergration, they want one world domination - funny that, probably why the Nazis loved them so much - they after all had so much common ground.

There we go again:) i thought that yesterday, you were talking about Islamism not Islam:) As for Nazism, you should try to take is easy with Islam and Nazism. We all know what Nazis did, and dont forget that Nazis were Germans after all, so you might wanna relax and take it easy with the Nazi Card.

The fact and the matter is trying to ridicule their religion is not going to help us in the West, making enemies out of two billion people is not a very good idea.

[2495]

I hope you are being sarcastic.

No man! wheres your OUTRAGE! now? come on, thats a terrible crime against a woman! make a thread denouncing them! ........ or are you an islamic apologist?

[2495]

There we go again:) i thought that yesterday, you were talking about Islamism not Islam:) As for Nazism, you should try to take is easy with Islam and Nazism. We all know what Nazis did, and dont forget that Nazis were Germans after all, so you might wanna relax and take it easy with the Nazi Card.

Muslims and Nazis worked hand in glove. I got all the proof I need to wipe the floor with you in any argument, period.

Hell, you look at islam now, its just a mirror image of what nazis in WW2 did.

# Nazis got stopped, islams carried the anti jew rhetoric forward. Nazi germany wanted to wipe away the jews, islam now carries it forward...

[Herman the II]

http://www.abload.de/img/stuooxr.jpg

Stupid thread is stupid btw.

[cltknight]

Muslims and Nazis worked hand in glove. I got all the proof I need to wipe the floor with you in any argument, period.

Hell, you look at islam now, its just a mirror image of what nazis in WW2 did.

I really, don't think you can wipe the floor with me, ill tell you why. First, since my grand father fought in WW2 and probably wiped the floor with many punks like yourself. Second, you sound pretty tough behind your computer screen, i am sure you would not be that though if you were in front of me :)

So let go back to the original subject, and stop trolling.

[cltknight]

Ola, cltknight, have You had a nationality?

are You proud enuff to tell us?

would ease a lil tension....

What's yours? can i have your social as well:) No i do not have a nationality, i am from somewhere over the rainbow.

[2495]

What's yours? can i have your social as well:) No i do not have a nationality, i am from somewhere over the rainbow.

I am a white, Christian Englishman.

My bet is cltknight is a black african muslim.

[Connaught Ranger]

I am a white, Christian Englishman.

My bet is cltknight is a black african muslim.

And he is a professional Troll. p-)

[cltknight]

Awright then. Keep on supporting all the oppressing regimes on the face of the Earth, from above the rainbow then. For which i wish You all the best.

Ok lets recapitulate, all what i did is post an article that shows how the far-right is starting to rise in Germany, and how it might represent a future threat to the Western Democracy, and just for doing that, i got bombarded with all kind of Bull$ghui.

So i do not know where did you get the " me defending oppressing regimes"

[cltknight]

And he is a professional Troll. p-)

Please do not blame you lack of argument on me:)


I am a white, Christian Englishman.

My bet is cltknight is a black african muslim.

Beside being a bigot, you are funny:)

[Connaught Ranger]

Please do not blame you lack of argument on me:)

You present no argument, just B.S. kid.:roll:

[cltknight]

Yea.

West:

extremists are rising. and there's law enforcement to act like a dam, and withheld the rise.

Regimes You supported beforehand in other threads:

extremists are rising. and there's law enforcement to act like a catalyst, and inflame the rise.










don't worry, one day, You'll grant entry visa to the free world, and You'll see for Yourself;)

Entry Visa:) Unless you are talking about North Korea other than that, i do not need a visa.


You present no argument, just B.S. kid.:roll:

You are not even worth an answer:)

[tercio67]

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6262/w003repost.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/w003repost.jpg/)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4266550

[cltknight]

You should come visit me in Asheville, NC :)

[Tyon]

It just make us nervous to see the NDP rising within the German political arena.

Say what? The NPD/NDP is rising in our political arena? Was i in coma for 24 years and did i miss something?

rising in the political arena... what the... oO

[muck]

Man, you need to RELAX, why are you being so sensitve:) need a hug?:)
Nobody is asking Germany to Apologize. It just make us nervous to see the NDP rising within the German political arena.The NPD is not a rising star, it is falling very deeply.

Racism and especially racism of the violent kind is hardly a problem in Germany. We have much more problems with leftist terrorists and violent criminals of foreign descent.

And nobody's asking for apologizes? Bollocks. Iran did even push for sanctions against Germany.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Either that, or you're very prejudiced.

[Macs.]

Ok lets recapitulate, all what i did is post an article that shows how the far-right is starting to rise in Germany, and how it might represent a future threat to the Western Democracy, and just for doing that, i got bombarded with all kind of Bull$ghui.

You are either uneducated on the topic or you just try to make stuff up.

What you write is nonsense.

The NPD is bankcrupt. It has no political influence whatsoever.

This case has NOTHING to do with the NPD.

[cltknight]

Say what? The NPD/NDP is rising in our political arena? Was i in coma for 24 years and did i miss something?

rising in the political arena... what the... oO


You are either uneducated on the topic or you just try to make stuff up.

What you write is nonsense.

The NPD is bankcrupt. It has no political influence whatsoever.

This case has NOTHING to do with the NPD.


I really hope that's the case ( about to go bankrupt) but obviously, they have enough spare cash to buy a hotel, I never said that i was an expret in german politics i just know that SPD and the CDU don.t have the 90% of the votes they use to have in the 70's, and just look at Austria. Let's say i am an ignorant, there is always a nicer way of explaining things.


Germany's far-right National Democratic party (NPD) has triggered outrage with plans for a Third Reich-style "training centre" in a small village.

The mastermind of the scheme is Jürgen Rieger, a lawyer and deputy leader of the anti-immigrant, anti-EU party that is steeped in pride for Adolf Hitler and the "achievements" of the Nazi regime. The idea is for the old Hotel Gerhus at Fassberg, near Hanover, to become a place of pilgrimage for NPD devotees, where they can learn about the "menace" of immigration, the "criminality" of Roma gypsies and the "innate decency of law-abiding German nationalists".

Mr Rieger, 61, has also tried to open Boys From Brazil-style "breeding centres" in other locations; the plan being for all white, Ayran racists like himself to produce offspring to people the Fourth Reich, which he believes is coming one day.

The abandoned hotel went into receivership 24 hours before Mr Rieger signed a 10-year lease on it with the debt-ridden owners. The receiver, Jens Wilhelm, had hoped to be granted an order this week to force the neo-Nazis off the property, but a court rejected his move. It means Mr Rieger and the NPD are there until another court hearing can be convened.

His refusal to give up his plan is likely to cause a furore in Fassberg. Left-wing, anti-Nazi groups are already promising marches that would inevitably lead to violence near the 80-room property.

A foretaste came at the weekend when shots were fired near the hotel and young people from the left and right faced off with pepper sprays and batons. Police have mobilised 24-hour patrols.

Mr Rieger is also trying to open a museum in Wolfsburg dedicated to the Nazi leisure organisation Strength Through Joy.

The NPD has about 7,000 members and lawmakers sitting in regional parliaments, but none in the Bundestag.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanys-prohitler-party-plans-training-centre-1764700.html

I guess that's nothing to worry about right?

[2495]

You should come visit me in Asheville, NC :)


Oh Christ above save us all. You are from Hippy ville? your on MP.net why then? I bet your one of those who goes down pritchard park in the summer for a 'drumming' with all the hippies.

Now it becomes clear - People, this 'thing' lives in liberal la la land and the one place on earth where this rampant 'OMFG! Germany is going all Nazi!' bvll**** is seen as 'progressive' and gets you into the 'in' crowd.

[muck]

You are either uneducated on the topic or you just try to make stuff up.

What you write is nonsense.

The NPD is bankcrupt. It has no political influence whatsoever.

This case has NOTHING to do with the NPD.Absolutely. The crime itself was an isolated case, a murder committed by someone who isn't even a natural German citizen.

There are less than 30'000 Neonazis in Germany, and trust me, they're monitored by German authorities like we lived in a ****ing Orwellian surveillance state.

Neonazis commit less than 900 violent crimes a year. Last year's three Neonazi murders were an unique peak. You'll find more racist violence in any other European country!

[muck]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanys-prohitler-party-plans-training-centre-1764700.html

I guess that's nothing to worry about right?It is not. Because as soon as Mr. Rieger opens suchlike centres, the police comes to shut them down.

[muck]

Sorry for the triple posting, but I'm just furious at the thread starter. One can really carry things too far!

I never said that i was an expret in german politics i just know that SPD and the CDU are not the only players anymore,Yeah, do you know who joined their ranks? A bunch of ****ing socialists, the spiritual successor to the communist regime of Eastern Germany.

There's no Nazi thread whatsoever in Germany.

If you're already aware that you haven't got a clue concerning German politics, why don't you just shut your trap then?

and just look at Austria.Another asinine statement, you're record-breaking.
The Austrian right-wing parties are far less radical than the German NPD is, hell some of them like late Joerg Haider's BZÖ are even pro Lissbon Treaty. Would a Nazi party support the Lissbon Treaty? Hell no.

[Macs.]

I really hope that's the case ( about to go bankrupt) but obviously, they have enough spare cash to buy a hotel, I never said that i was an expret in german politics

Then why do you come here to warn us of the threat from Germany ? :roll:


i just know that SPD and the CDU don.t have the 90% of the votes they use to have

The SPD and CDU don't have 90% of the votes - And that's your excuse for making up a story about a "rising threat from the right" ? :cantbeli:

Do some research on who is in the Bundestag currently, and at the polls for the upcoming election.


and just look at Austria.

Yeah ? Nothing to worry about going on there.

[Tyon]

It is not. Because as soon as Mr. Rieger opens suchlike centres, the police comes to shut them down.

Wasnt the Hotel cleared by the police because some nazi idiots thought it would be cool to occupy it?

Well Rieger already tried one center of his NPD and it failed...




"... Rieger Rieger immer dieser Rieger, das soll ein Nazi sein? ...."

roflrofl




Yeah ? Nothing to worry about going on there.

Oh there is something to worry. They got a green party that isnt like ours... they are cool. Even i would vote for them. oO

[cltknight]

Then why do you come here to warn us of the threat from Germany ? :roll:



The SPD and CDU don't have 90% of the votes - And that's your excuse for making up a story about a "rising threat from the right" ? :cantbeli:

Do some research on who is in the Bundestag currently, and at the polls for the upcoming election.



Yeah ? Nothing to worry about going on there.

I said they had 90% of the votes in the 70's in nowadays their combined votes are less than 70%, and i do know that the NPD does not have any seats in the Bundestag but they do have 7,000 members and lawmakers sitting in regional parliaments.

[2495]

Macs has spoken.

/THREAD.

[Macs.]

I said they had 90% of the votes in the 70's in nowadays their combined votes are less than 70%, and i do know that the NPD does not have any seats in the Bundestag but they do have 7,000 members and lawmakers sitting in regional parliaments.

Yeah, and we have a population of over 80 Million people.

So is there ANY substance to your allegations ?

[cltknight]

I never said that the NPD IS about to take over the Gov. all what i did is rise a question, and i am sorry, if i offended anyone, but there is always a nicer way of explaining things without sounding like di$$heads,LIKE SOME DID

[Silent Reader]

I never said that the NPD IS about to take over the Gov. all what i did is rise a question, and i am sorry, if i offended anyone, but there is always a nicer way of explaining things without sounding like di$$heads,LIKE SOME DID


to give you some numbers

this pdf (http://cdl.niedersachsen.de/blob/images/C15049472_L20.pdf) shows the numbers for the three main right wing parties in Germany from 2000 to 2006. the top table being in all of Germany (and the bottom one for the state of Lower Saxony but this is unimportant)

As you can see all three parties had 36,500 members in 2000. in 2006 they had 21,500 members combined. so they lost a third of their members within 6 years.

so where exactly is there a rise? yes the NPD gained 500 members.. but that is nothing.. and certainly not a reason for concern

[hsh2]

Yeah, and we have a population of over 80 Million people.

So is there ANY substance to your allegations ?

Besides a few decades ago the Republikaner or DVU were elected to the I think it was Ba Wü parlament, only to disappear soon after.

I'm much more scared of left wing extremists, like the ones that announced a wave of attacks in the week of the 24th in my city, than I am of 500 bundesweite NeoNazis

Yaaaawwnnn...

[cltknight]

to give you some numbers

this pdf (http://cdl.niedersachsen.de/blob/images/C15049472_L20.pdf) shows the numbers for the three main right wing parties in Germany from 2000 to 2006. the top table being in all of Germany (and the bottom one for the state of Lower Saxony but this is unimportant)

As you can see all three parties had 36,500 members in 2000. in 2006 they had 21,500 members combined. so they lost a third of their members within 6 years.

so where exactly is there a rise? yes the NPD gained 500 members.. but that is nothing.. and certainly not a reason for concern


Thank you and i really appreciate your input. Again, iwas just raising a question, never said it was a proven fact. For the record, i have no problem with German people, as a matter of fact, my ex was German and i have lived with 4 German roommates for over 3 years.

[Silent Reader]

Besides a few decades ago the Republikaner or DVU were elected to the I think it was Ba Wü parlament, only to disappear soon after.

I'm much more scared of left wing extremists, like the ones that announced a wave of attacks in the week of the 24th in my city, than I am of 500 bundesweite NeoNazis

Yaaaawwnnn...


yes, the DVU got 12.9% in Saxony-Anhalt and therefore 16 seats in the state parliament in 1998... during the next elections in that state they failed to make it into parliament again with just 1.2%

but the DVU is finished anyway... the leader / boss who is a publisher and millionaire stepped down.. and without him the party probably won't survive on the long term.. at least that would be my guess.

[rabapone]

my ex was German and i have lived with 4 German roommates for over 3 years.


and all this in Nouakchott, i guess rofl

[Connaught Ranger]

You are not even worth an answer:)

Thanks for NOT answering kid! woot rofl woot

[cltknight]

and all this in Nouakchott, i guess rofl

Oh, so ur the new clown in town, and to answer your question, no during my stay in Nktt I was seeing ur Sis. Don't you remember that? We use to Be pretty loud.

[muck]

Oh, so ur the new clown in town, and to answer you question, no during my stay in Nktt I was seeing ur Sis. Don't you remember that? We use to Be pretty loud.You really are a clown. Go choke yourself.

[Fuschimuschi]

Truth is, I would take black friends of mine to every neighbourhood here in Hannover but not to Dresden.
My fear of the right-wing idiots is bigger than my feat of immigrant youth.

I live in a neighbourhood that has a strong immigrant population, of the 24 tenants in my house alone, 12 are Turkish/Kurdish, 2 Polish, 2 Spanish, 3 Chinese. I never had any problems. I have been to Dresden 6 times and I always encountered racism and violence or threats against me twice.

[cltknight]

You really are a clown. Go choke yourself.

Did I hurt ur feelings? I am sorry for that, Need a hug?

[afreu]

The internetz lovez all of you.

[muck]

Truth is, I would take black friends of mine to every neighbourhood here in Hannover but not to Dresden.
My fear of the right-wing idiots is bigger than my feat of immigrant youth.

I live in a neighbourhood that has a strong immigrant population, of the 24 tenants in my house alone, 12 are Turkish/Kurdish, 2 Polish, 2 Spanish, 3 Chinese. I never had any problems. I have been to Dresden 6 times and I always encountered racism and violence or threats against me twice.No offence meant, but may I ask if you're of foreign descent?

I for one am often mistaken for someone of southern descent and never encountered any form of racism in my entire life. Not even in Chemnitz, which is more like Dresden's waste dump in social terms.

Did I hurt ur feelings? Ia sorry for that, Need a hug?No, I'd already be satisfied if you did like I asked you to do.

[Mackie]

I really hope that's the case ( about to go bankrupt) but obviously, they have enough spare cash to buy a hotel, I never said that i was an expret in german politics i just know that SPD and the CDU don.t have the 90% of the votes they use to have in the 70's, and just look at Austria. Let's say i am an ignorant, there is always a nicer way of explaining things.

The German police cleared that hotel. It was rented by a private right winger and not the party itself.
A $2mil penalty is on the way and furthers investigation still run. The intelligence service observe the NPD 24/7 like Scientology or the Jihadis.
We have the greens and the FDP with 13% each. The greens are traditional partner of the SPD and the FDP of the CDU. 9% lefies, that's it.
I realize you know nothing about politics here.

About Dresden:
Dresden was always a symbol for the Neo-Nazis. It's a major tool to play down the crimes of their bunch. The number of prostesters doubled because it becomes a international meeting for Neo-Nazis.
Other reasons are high unemployment and a sick housing structure for poors.
The problem that a real denazification and 68 movement never happened are general problems in Eastern Germany.

And the famous number of over 20000 crimes by Neo-Nazis is due to the fact that we ban symbols and insignias. Every razzia against Neo-Nazis push that number in the sky. Without this, violence by left wingers isn't much lower in statistics.

[Mackie]

Truth is, I would take black friends of mine to every neighbourhood here in Hannover but not to Dresden.
My fear of the right-wing idiots is bigger than my feat of immigrant youth.

I live in a neighbourhood that has a strong immigrant population, of the 24 tenants in my house alone, 12 are Turkish/Kurdish, 2 Polish, 2 Spanish, 3 Chinese. I never had any problems. I have been to Dresden 6 times and I always encountered racism and violence or threats against me twice.

No doubt if you know the scene. I have enough friends which parents immigrated but hell - you ever walked through Berlin/Wedding at night? Was my worst decision as a tourist in Berlin

[muck]

Without this, violence by left wingers isn't much lower in statistics.In fact left wing extremists commit more violent crimes in Germany than Neonazis do.

[cltknight]

The German police cleared that hotel. It was rented by a private right winger and not the party itself.
A $2mil penalty is on the way and furthers investigation still run. The intelligence service observe the NPD 24/7 like Scientology or the Jihadis.
We have the greens and the FDP with 13% each. The greens are traditional partner of the SPD and the FDP of the CDU. 9% lefies, that's it.
I realize you know nothing about politics here.

About Dresden:
Dresden was always a symbol for the Neo-Nazis. It's a major tool to play down the crimes of their bunch. The number of prostesters doubled because it becomes a international meeting for Neo-Nazis.
Other reasons are high unemployment and a sick housing structure for poors.
The problem that a real denazification and 68 movement never happened are general problems in Eastern Germany.

And the famous number of over 20000 crimes by Neo-Nazis is due to the fact that we ban symbols and insignias. Every razzia against Neo-Nazis push that number in the sky. Without this, violence by left wingers isn't much lower in statistics.

Thank you for the info. Are racial tensions more common in the Eastern part of Germany?

[muck]

Thank you for the info. Are racial tensions more common in the Eastern part of Germany?Yes. That is because under communist rule, Eastern Germany hardly had any immigration except for some foreign workers from Angola or Vietnam. Even today immigrants prefer western Germany where their respective ethnic groups have built a community already, so East Germans don't have much contact with foreigners.

That being said racism isn't such a big issue over there either. Many East Germans are rather hostile towards all foreigners, even west german compatriots.

[cltknight]

Yes. That is because under communist rule, Eastern Germany hardly had any immigration except for some foreign workers from Angola or Vietnam. Even today immigrants prefer western Germany where their respective ethnic groups have built a community already, so East Germans don't have much contact with foreigners.

That being said racism isn't such a big issue over there either. Many East Germans are rather hostile towards all foreigners, even west german compatriots.

Appreciate the input. Yes, i have noticed that among Germans, the Western ones would make fun of the East germans (DDR) heavy German accent ( according to them)

[quinsen]

Yeah... if Saxony would be whole East Germany. This guy is hilarious.

[Mackie]

Yes. That is because under communist rule, Eastern Germany hardly had any immigration except for some foreign workers from Angola or Vietnam. Even today immigrants prefer western Germany where their respective ethnic groups have built a community already, so East Germans don't have much contact with foreigners.

That being said racism isn't such a big issue over there either. Many East Germans are rather hostile towards all foreigners, even west german compatriots.

+ The famous question of guilt was not that important like in the west.
Maybe because the regime had some similarities to the Nazis.

[muck]

Appreciate the input.I never said I wouldn't like to discuss with you in a civil manner. Just spare us with the dumb comments.

Yes, i have noticed that among Germans, the Western ones would make fun of the East germans (DDR) heavy German accent ( according to them)With their taxes, West Germans have invested nearly one trillion Euros (!!!) into eastern Germany.
East Germans were enthusiastic about the reunification but when their lives weren't changed to the better as quickly as they expected, they abandonded all hope and upset their western neighbours.
You must understand that many couldn't appreciate the assets democracy and capitalism offered to them. Some had to fear job loss for the first time in their lives and wages started to diverge. Even today many East Germans say they'd be ready to turn political freedoms in for personal security.

The Left party, successor of the former SED regime party, is about to gain 30 percent of all votes in eastern states.

And that's why many West Germans aren't too fond of East Germans. That being said, East Germans regard this attitude as arrogance and turn cool towards West Germans.

It's a vicious circle.

[Zeckenteppich]

hallo everybody

first: i live in Dresden and it is not as bad as you discribe if you go to the wrong place you might get beat up but this could happen in every german city (and i have been in different)

second: a lot of left wing violents in saxony is due to a beat up nazi because antifa action are quite strong in Dresden and especially Leipzig

third: there was a denazification in the GDR maybe an even harder than in the BRD BUT due official antifashist curse of government (in there mind BRD is/was a fashist state) a lot people looked over the wall and might have thought maybe fashism isn't that bad also they overheared and blocked that whole antifashist propaganda

fourth: the left wing party is a combination of PDS and WASG

fifth: a lot of younger men applied to right wing thoughts because when their youth centers were about to close the JN (youth organisation of the NPD) reopened them and "played" with the kids
this happend to my youth center and i heard from other people the same stories in the 90's but not to worry i'm definitiv not fashist
so my 2 cents

[Connaught Ranger]

Has cltknight:-

A. ever lived in Germany for an extended period of time.

b. ever visited Germany over a period of a number of years,

c. his only expertise on all things German derived from an ex-girlfriend and 3 German room mates?

As for myself, I was on a months vacation to Germany every year from 1985 - 1996

and lived there from 1997 - 2003, and still maintain contacts there.

I did not see or hear anything even amongst the people who live there at those times or even now to say the N.P.D. is on the rise.

Connaught Ranger.

[toki]

Its funny how everyone is outraged at the over reaction of the Muslim world, but no one is worried about the rise of the Far right in Germany and Austria. Maybe since Germany has a long history with the far right, they should try to learn from their PAST.

I don't think it Germany or Austria are different than any other European country in that aspect. Tell me about the long history. What do you know about the NPD in Postwar Germany?

Learn from the past? Get from your high horse. Where are you from?



Ok lets recapitulate, all what i did is post an article that shows how the far-right is starting to rise in Germany, and how it might represent a future threat to the Western Democracy.

What do you know? Not much. If you pull such BS analogies you're not to be taken seriously. Don't try to explain the German political landscape to us. Stick to your own, wherever you're from.



hallo everybody

first: i live in Dresden and it is not as bad as you discribe if you go to the wrong place you might get beat up but this could happen in every german city (and i have been in different)

I live in an equally sized city in the West. One thing is true, you also run a high chance of getting smacked here on a night out - probably more likely than in other cities, i doubt Dresden sticks out that much. BUT the casual violence here is not so much politicised as it is in the east, or especially cities like Dresden.
I've heard it too often i know people who live there, it is different.


Thank you for the info. Are racial tensions more common in the Eastern part of Germany?

Yes.

[Zeckenteppich]

BUT the casual violence here is not so much politicised as it is in the east, or especially cities like Dresden.


I have to say that this might be true.

[b0sco]

I live in an equally sized city in the West. One thing is true, you also run a high chance of getting smacked here on a night out

Yeah, but not by 'Germans'. p-)

[muck]

Yeah, but not by 'Germans'. p-)In terms of figures, you're running on a 80 percent (!) chance of getting beaten up by some Arabs or Turks in Berlin. Only 20 percent of the violent criminals are native Germans over there.

Armes Deutschland!

[toki]

Yeah, but not by 'Germans'. p-)

Altstadt D'dorf? :) The thugs don't any have ethnic lines. It's definitely not only Turks and Arabs. Just as easily eastern Europeans or Germans. Or your average Balkan guy. We have everything. Though it's often not the locals, but the drinking tourists who are worst.
We have riot police there every other weekend. It got a bit worse over the last years.
And i don't really know if it differs from Köln in that aspect. Though we draw the ruhrpott crowd, you know?

[Zeckenteppich]

In the "east" you have the privilege to get beat up by "real" germans.:)

[b0sco]

And i don't really know if it differs from Köln in that aspect. Though we draw the ruhrpott crowd, you know?

Köln, the west-German Klein-Istanbul. :p

Though as long as you have Turks in the group you're going out with, you're usually fine.

[quinsen]

Though as long as you have Turks in the group you're going out with, you're usually fine.
Just depends WHERE you are in Cologne. As long as you are not walking into a group of arabs/libaneses/(german-)russians/... These groups partially think they own their 'block' and no one else is allowed to enter this territory. Unfortunately I know from some cologne policemen that they are already avoiding certain areas at night without backup (remember that incident with the 'fake' police call last year, when some arabs just wanted to kill some policemen).

[toki]

Köln, the west-German Klein-Istanbul. :p

Though as long as you have Turks in the group you're going out with, you're usually fine.
I know that Turks are more dominant in Cologne, but we also have 18% with a foreign pass. Though no real turkish quarter. It seems we have a more mixed crowd up here. I tend to believe the Balkan crowd is just as strong as the Turkish community. Maybe it's indeed a difference to Cologne. :)

Oh and we have almost 2% Japanese.

[Fuschimuschi]

No offence meant, but may I ask if you're of foreign descent?

Well, my biological father is from Georgia. Often people just talk Turkish to me because they identify me as "one of their own". :D

I just have a very uneasy feeling going around by myself in Dresden and other east-german cities. I'm afraid of my fellow Germans, it's sad but it's the truth.


I do understand though that many Germans in western-Germany probably feels the same, they are afraid of going through certain neighbourhoods by themselves in their own country because they are in danger of getting threatened for being a "Scheiß Kartoffel".

[Mackie]

Guys, it seems you have serious problems in your cities.
Thanks god I live in Ulm where Arabs don't beat people but prepare for fighting in Astan and planning terror attacks around the world.
Like always Swabians are more professional

[toki]

Guys, it seems you have serious problems in your cities.
Thanks god I live in Ulm where Arabs don't beat people but prepare for fighting in Astan and planning terror attacks around the world.
Like always Swabians are more professional

Recently a gang of youths did some kind of road block on our chickimicki shopping street at night and pulled drivers out of their expensinve cars, beat them up to steal the rides and joyride across town.
Turned out it was a group of DUTCH kids (probably from the Roermond area) on a binge dinking tour across the border. ETHNIC TERROR :)

[Fuschimuschi]

Wow. I have to say it's pretty boring here in Hannover (we have to live up to the stereotype I guess) compared to that. :D

[Warlock762]

Don't pull out that Ruhrpott Card ! That wouldn't be fair p-)
But every time i visit D'Dorf Altstadt, i see riot police standing around waiting for the big clash.

http://www.abload.de/img/polizisten-12929744-qucslz.jpg

[Connaught Ranger]

Don't pull out that Ruhrpott Card ! That wouldn't be fair p-)
But every time i visit D'Dorf Altstadt, i see riot police standing around waiting for the big clash.

http://www.abload.de/img/polizisten-12929744-qucslz.jpg

Oh! I thought it was the fashion police in action. woot

[Macs.]

Some cities have real problems.

Last time I was in Cologne, there were drug people and beggars infront of the railway station during clear daylight. It was dirty and filthy.

**** like this ain't going down in Stuttgart, and I am really happy about it. Same goes for violence on the street, the last real punch up I have witnessed was new years eve, and that was a little pathetic trade of 3 or 4 punches.

We really have a great number of Police patroling the street, especially people who come from other big cities always tell me how there is Police everywhere here. After visting almost all other major German cities, I am really happy about that.

[zapatero]

I really don't know what is it all about... Just came back from Dresden. Beautiful city, lovely cathedral, NPD posters all over the place... Oh! Now I get it!

[Solvent]

Just depends WHERE you are in Cologne. As long as you are not walking into a group of arabs/libaneses/(german-)russians/... These groups partially think they own their 'block' and no one else is allowed to enter this territory. Unfortunately I know from some cologne policemen that they are already avoiding certain areas at night without backup (remember that incident with the 'fake' police call last year, when some arabs just wanted to kill some policemen).

Man, that's shocking to hear.

[Warlock762]

Last time I was in Cologne, there were drug people and beggars infront of the railway station during clear daylight. It was dirty and filthy.

x2 for Wuppertal.

Although they increased police patrols in the pedestrian precinct, the area around the main train station remains "heisses Pflaster".

[toki]

Don't pull out that Ruhrpott Card ! That wouldn't be fair p-)
But every time i visit D'Dorf Altstadt, i see riot police standing around waiting for the big clash.

http://www.abload.de/img/polizisten-12929744-qucslz.jpg

I'm glad they're there, even though we pay the bill. Every other weekend seems to be rated like a big football match being in town.

I think we're the capital of stag parties, it's extremely annoying. And when other Bundesliga clubs play, the away fans don't bother to stay in Dortmund, Mönchengladbach, Schalke etc. but come here. I've seen Frankfurt fans clubbing it out with police, even though they did play in Dortmund, 80km away. :cantbeli:

I'd say i live in a safe city which is pretty rich actually, but the bar district on a weekend can be very rough. I kinda recall to read somewhere that 'we' lead the NRW statistics for assault and pickpocketing etc. The typical alcohol and crowd related problems. And leading NRW is never good in that aspect.

Macs, we also have that kind of Train station, even though it got better. But to be honest Stuttgart has a village feel anyway. It may come from the fact that even though our cities have equal population numbers, the towns directly attached to ours make it easily a milion. And the area in general is much more crowded, Cologne being 25 minutes away, i think we have easily 10 million in a 80km radius. And your town is spread across the surrounding hills and just outside there is simply countryside.

Same goes for Munich which feels pretty quaint for a city of a million.

Anyway: I like Cologne (somehow), but it is anything but beautiful. Our place is much nicer. :-)

[User_Name]

The problem that a real denazification and 68 movement never happened are general problems in Eastern Germany.

And how about Bayern :)
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/96/sw3002690520copy1.jpg

On serious note, the unemployment is the biggest problem there, people without job and perspective are easy pray for nazi wankers or leftwing extremists.

[Jarhead]

Good ol' South FTW

[toki]

Good ol' South FTW

No, thank you.

[b0sco]

Well, if I had the money, I'd seriously consider moving to Munich.

[Weasel]

No, thank you.

X2

Never ever.

[Macs.]

Macs, we also have that kind of Train station, even though it got better. But to be honest Stuttgart has a village feel anyway. It may come from the fact that even though our cities have equal population numbers, the towns directly attached to ours make it easily a milion. And the area in general is much more crowded, Cologne being 25 minutes away, i think we have easily 10 million in a 80km radius. And your town is spread across the surrounding hills and just outside there is simply countryside.

The Region Stuttgart has 2.7 Million inhabitants, the third biggest city-region after Berlin and the Ruhrgebiet. But yeah, there really isn't that much around it besides that.

The bar/party district is for a large part around the Theodor-Heuss-Straße, but especially that part is pretty safe, even on a Saturday night. You still have alot of police presence there, pretty much around the clock.

And that is also pretty crowded on a normal saturday, and then you have days when there is the Volkfest + Football game + normal party crowd on one day, and I still don't recall any big violence.

A pratical example on crime: Just last week I saw a TV report about gypsie children who go stealing around Berlin, and can't be arrested because they are too young. The families of them obviously exploit the law. Now, why does this happen in Berlin and not Stuttgart ? Well, the wise goverment in Berlin put those children, once they pick them up for stealing, in a OPEN orphanage where they can leave and come as they want. So after they get there, they simply go out and back to stealing.

They even exploit that, as they use the orphanage to sleep and eat. The same thing is not possible in Stuttgart, because there are closed orphanage here which will not let them go back on the street and thus hurting their profit very much.

But now I heared the ****ing idiots in the Berlin goverment also want to hand out Gewerbescheine to gypsies who """clean""" windows at traffic intersections... rofl

"Arm und Sexy" my ass.

[sig]

"Arm und Sexy" my ass.

It's "Arm aber Sexy."

For the rest:

http://blog.zitty.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/27052008.jpg

;-)

[toki]

Well, if I had the money, I'd seriously consider moving to Munich.

If you like a high standard of living, but don't want to leave the western culture > move up to your beloved neighbours. :-P But leave Hennes and Poldi there please.

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article2084064/Duesseldorf_schlaegt_Muenchen_bei_Lebensqualitaet.html

Düsseldorf schlägt München bei Lebensqualität

nach einer internationalen Vergleichsstudie 2008 zur Lebensqualität in Großstädten zählen Düsseldorf mit Rang 6 sowie Frankfurt und München auf Rang 7 zu den Top-Ten-Metropolen weltweit.

[Macs.]

;-)

"Berliner Kultur" ?

The culture of burning cars or starting street riots ? p-)

[toki]

"Berliner Kultur" ?

The culture of burning cars or starting street riots ? p-)

swabian blockwart in Berlin:

http://www.youtube.com/v/eF3qxtO70Zw

[Mackie]

And how about Bayern :)
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/96/sw3002690520copy1.jpg

On serious note, the unemployment is the biggest problem there, people without job and perspective are easy pray for nazi wankers or leftwing extremists.

I love it. Remember that the the strong conservative south was the center of the 68 movement. And by the way, the north was the stongest Nazi supporter p-)

[Mackie]

Macs, we also have that kind of Train station, even though it got better. But to be honest Stuttgart has a village feel anyway. It may come from the fact that even though our cities have equal population numbers, the towns directly attached to ours make it easily a milion. And the area in general is much more crowded, Cologne being 25 minutes away, i think we have easily 10 million in a 80km radius. And your town is spread across the surrounding hills and just outside there is simply countryside.

Same goes for Munich which feels pretty quaint for a city of a million.

Anyway: I like Cologne (somehow), but it is anything but beautiful. Our place is much nicer. :-)


Yes, Stuttgart is very small compared to the Cologne Region. But Stuttgart has the most effective police in Germany. Police and courts are fast and well coordinated.
A good friends work in a court.
Also they have a special program for social housing which avoids "ghettos".

[sig]

"Berliner Kultur" ?

The culture of burning cars or starting street riots ? p-)

Not much time for answers.
Must go to the daily riot.

[toki]

Yes, Stuttgart is very small compared to the Cologne Region. But Stuttgart has the most effective police in Germany. Police and courts are fast and well coordinated.
A good friends work in a court.
Also they have a special program for social housing which avoids "ghettos".

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_q5nS4OXOc64/SDSzVOO18wI/AAAAAAAAAZk/IR-6DV0j0DM/s400/angry%2Bface.jpg

[muck]

Not much time for answers.
Must go to the daily riot.Remember to set fire to DLH delivery cars at first. The world image of leftist terrorists - and set's what these mass arsonists are - regards them as decisive for the Blitzkrieg against Afghanistan.

p-)

[User_Name]

I love it. Remember that the the strong conservative south was the center of the 68 movement.

Didnt know that Kommune I was in Munich or Stuttgart.
By me it was in "arm und sexy(Berliner Schnauze????rofl)" capital.:)


And by the way, the north was the stongest Nazi supporter p-)
SUUURRREEEE:)
the events in 20s in Munich prove itp-)



to make a clear and full picture:
Go NRW GOOOO!!! STRONG!!"!11!1:)

[Macs.]

Remember to set fire to DLH delivery cars at first. The world image of leftist terrorists - and set's what these mass arsonists are - regards them as decisive for the Blitzkrieg against Afghanistan.

p-)

It's all in good fun, but...

http://www.brennende-autos.de/

WTF, over.


P.S. South-Germany is best Germany.

[muck]

It's all in good fun, but...

http://www.brennende-autos.de/

WTF, over.


P.S. South-Germany is best Germany.Holy fvck.

[johanness]

P.S. South-Germany is best Germany.

South-West Germany, BADEN, to be exactly.