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hist2004
08-16-2009, 09:27 AM
Should we re-assess the U.S. role in Afghanistan?

August 14, 2009




http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zlQH3hY9j-E/SoXOuvs29iI/AAAAAAAABlI/kwukPBFl2os/s400/afghan_troops_0217.jpg
US Troops in Afghanistan

The recent appointment of General Stan McChrystal to command American forces in Afghanistan, and his recent hint that he needs more forces, raises an important issue. Perhaps it is an appropriate time to re-assess our role and mission in the country. Rather than merely continue a mission because "we are there," a fresh analysis may be in order.

As we all know, President Bush ordered American forces into Afghanistan in October 2001, following the September 11 attacks on the United States. The invasion was a direct response to the attacks, yes, but also a response to the Taliban-led radical Islamist government of Afghanistan after it refused to turn over Usamah bin Ladin. The Taliban became a tactical enemy, but the strategic target was Usamah bin Ladin and his al-Qa'idah organization (tanzim al-qa'idah).

In 2003, President Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq. Because of my own personal history with the regime of Saddam Husayn in the 1980's, then Desert Shield and Desert Storm, followed by a tour with the CIA Operation DBACHILLES (http://www.iraqwararchive.org/data/may16/US/wp08.pdf), I had no problem with the invasion. Since I had participated in the unsuccessful effort to overthrow the regime from inside Iraq, I knew that the only an external effort - an invasion - would be successful.

That said, there were many critics of the decision to remove Saddam Husayn when we had not yet captured Usamah bin Ladin and were still engaged in Afghanistan. Although bin Ladin had almost certainly relocated to Pakistan, American troops were still operating against al-Qai'dah and Taliban remnants. It was probably at this time when the mission in Afghanistan fell victim to what we in the military call "mission creep."

In this instance, mission creep meant the transition from pursuing al-Qa'idah and Usamah bin Ladin to nation building in the basket case that is, and his been, Afghanistan. Combat troops trained to close with and destroy the enemy were now tasked with creating a democratic form of government, rather than hunting down the organization that attacked the United States in 2001.

For the next few years, the primary focus of the American military was Iraq. In Afghanistan, the Taliban reverted to an insurgent organization that challenged the fragile democracy created by the Americans. In the neighboring Waziristan tribal area of Pakistan, the Pushtun leaders, allied with their tribal brothers in Afghanistan, created a safe-haven for the al-Qa'idah fighters running from American troops in Afghanistan. it was not until the CIA began its armed drone operations that al-Qa'idah began to feel the pressure of American reach.

Faced with the expulsion from Afghanistan, relentless American drone attacks in the Waziristan area, increased Pakistani government operations against the Pushtun Islamists, the remaining al-Qa'idah fighters were ordered to relocate to Yemen and Somalia.

What is the situation today in Afghanistan? Are American forces engaging the enemy we set out to fight eight years ago? Are we attacking those who attacked us on September 11, 2001? No - we are fighting a domestic insurgency for the future of Afghanistan. Is that our mission? Is it even in the national interest? Does the failure of the newly-formed democracy in Kabul pose a threat to the United States?

I think those are all good questions. Soon after President Obama took office, he delivered an impassioned speech in which he spoke to al-Qa'idah - he told them we would defeat them.

That's the right answer.

Al-Qa'idah is the strategic enemy, the real target. Afghanistan and Pakistan may not be the place. Maybe we need to ask ourselves just what we are doing there.

Source: (http://francona.blogspot.com/)

Wahnsinn
08-16-2009, 09:37 AM
You have to finish what you start, pulling out now would leave the country in no better (and some may argue worse) a position than pre 2001.

hist2004
08-16-2009, 09:44 AM
You have to finish what you start, pulling out now would leave the country in no better (and some may argue worse) a position than pre 2001.

Yes, you have a valid point; but how do you balance the sacrifice (lives & treasure) that has been made with what is the end game? My feeling is
that we (US & Coalition forces) will leave one day as did the Russians, frustrated and war weary.

Hist2004

Wahnsinn
08-16-2009, 10:31 AM
Yes, you have a valid point; but how do you balance the sacrifice (lives & treasure) that has been made with what is the end game? My feeling is
that we (US & Coalition forces) will leave one day as did the Russians, frustrated and war weary.

Hist2004

Pulling out now would make all that sacrafice mean nothing if AQ are still attacking the west and Afghans are no better off.

hist2004
08-16-2009, 10:48 AM
Pulling out now would make all that sacrafice mean nothing if AQ are still attacking the west and Afghans are no better off.

Francona is implying that the original mission has changed. We are now involved in a “local insurgency”.

Hist2004

commanding
08-16-2009, 10:50 AM
Having just seen a televised program a couple of nights ago on the extreme poverty and lack of education Afghan........and the Madrassas, and how the combination of poverty, lack of education, lack of jobs, the holding down of women, etc.....I was moved. However myself having been aware of the "white man's burden" theories, .....and how a 12 cent shot of drugs could save a third world person from dying of malaria, but we seem incapable of pulling that off to a great extent, but at the same time on July 16, 2005 the UK and US economies delivered 9 million copies of the latest installment of the Harry Potter books to affluent kids across the two countries in one day..........I am at a loss. I just don't know.

Wahnsinn
08-16-2009, 11:29 AM
Francona is implying that the original mission has changed. We are now involved in a “local insurgency”.

Hist2004

I understood that, yes. Whether the mission has changed or not, we owe it to the Afghan people to leave their country in some working order after being there for eight years.

hist2004
08-16-2009, 11:34 AM
I understood that, yes. Whether the mission has changed or not, we owe it to the Afghan people to leave their country in some working order after being there for eight years.

The Taliban cannot defeat the US & Coalition forces outright. In the end, the ‘political winds’ will be the final resolution to the conflict.
Thanks for a civil exchange on this thread.

Hist2004

Jobu
08-16-2009, 11:45 AM
Does the failure of the newly-formed democracy in Kabul pose a threat to the United States?

Yes, because a return of the Taliban to power would likely mean it would go right back to being a safe haven for Al Qaeda to establish training camps, plot bombings, etc.

DID
08-16-2009, 11:59 AM
The Taliban cannot defeat the US & Coalition forces outright. In the end, the ‘political winds’ will be the final resolution to the conflict.
Thanks for a civil exchange on this thread.

Hist2004
Military they cannot but they have better option to fight, as keeping the situation in a statu quo (making some suicide bomb, and striking ISAF inside urban areas or even country) at the point that public opinion of engaged countries will force them to go out. What will be the situation for Afghanistan? Back to a medieval/Islamic law regime, giving the opportunity for all kind of religious fanatics to come back to the place.
I think the solution is not military but social. by giving more education, logistic infrastructures, better life conditions, hygiena, medical care, etc...openning minds to Human (woman) rights. What would finally give the Afghan peoples more power and less power to warlords and mollah that dont give attentoin to nothing but their religious or financial interest.
If Afghan peoples understand that and start live as a modern civilized society they will not want to see religious fanatics bringing back chaos to their homes.
But sending more troops will at my point be inefective in the next years if we dont pay much attention at the social and democratic points. We have the power to make pressure on the leaders so let do it and force them to accept more democracy and more freedom.

Jobu
08-16-2009, 12:06 PM
Having just seen a televised program a couple of nights ago on the extreme poverty and lack of education Afghan........and the Madrassas, and how the combination of poverty, lack of education, lack of jobs, the holding down of women, etc.....I was moved. However myself having been aware of the "white man's burden" theories, .....and how a 12 cent shot of drugs could save a third world person from dying of malaria, but we seem incapable of pulling that off to a great extent, but at the same time on July 16, 2005 the UK and US economies delivered 9 million copies of the latest installment of the Harry Potter books to affluent kids across the two countries in one day..........I am at a loss. I just don't know.

Harry Potter books are big business. There is money to be made by many companies if they can get those 9 million copies out on the first day. They will do whatever they can to make it happen. If people do not meet that deadline or that bottom line, they get fired. There are people lined up to do a better job. Business is a passionate thing because the company has to make money to survive.

Now if you're at some NGO trying to deliver malaria drugs to the third world it's quite different. Your staff are all volunteers. There are no lines of people banging down the door to work for you. You may care about the recipients of these drugs but are you passionate enough to fire the people who volunteered to help you when they cannot deliver the medicine quickly enough? Of course not. Who are you going to replace them with? You don't have the resources to deliver 9 million copies in one day. Companies are not competing to see who will help you deliver 9 million copies in one day. So you do not meet your deadlines. Your bottom line is hundreds or thousands of people dead.

So what's the moral here? Only this:

Find a way to make delivering malaria drugs to the third world a profitable business and the problem is solved. Manufacturers will be pumping millions of copies out and Fed Ex will have that **** to Bufu, Africa overnight.

tea drinker
08-16-2009, 04:25 PM
......However myself having been aware of the "white man's burden" theories, .....and how a 12 cent shot of drugs could save a third world person from dying of malaria, but we seem incapable of pulling that off to a great extent, but at the same time on July 16, 2005 the UK and US economies delivered 9 million copies of the latest installment of the Harry Potter books to affluent kids across the two countries in one day..........I am at a loss. I just don't know.
Well, what about all the drugs we buy from Afghanistan, surely that is more than 12 cent? Who is going to feed all these people who grow from having a small mouth to a large mouth? Who is going to feed their multiples of successful births? And on and on. If they can't stand on their own we can't help, it's simply impossible for us in the West, or for all the other coloured and Asians to do this. There are many populous non white christian nations - what are they doing, exactly? We can give assistance in the areas of education and infrastructure. Long term feeding people in a quarry or desert doesn't work as they will NEVER be self sufficient.
I'm sick of this white people are the source of all problems. It's used in our own societies to make middle class people feel guilty about all the people on the dole who need houses and free education and prison space for their kids. Sure we whites made a litany of mistakes, but look over how the african tribes and American / south american tribes waged wars - then tell me how that's our fault? These people have to stand on their own feet - same as our own. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be the one telling a father we don't want to give his starving kids food - I want to be the guy telling him if he can't afford to have kids don't start a family.