Excellent video on complexities of Afghan War

[wigon]

Here is a great bit of journalism cutting through political BS and really nailing the complex situation in Afghanistan and why peace is possible if we really master the complex political situation and are willing to work with moderate Taliban to form coalitions.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/video/module.html?mod=0&pkg=14082009&seg=6

I would recommend that we also engage the Taliban on a theological basis to convince them that we are not attacking their religion and are willing to work with them to develop a moderate Islam based governmental system that can be mostly compatible with international human rights standards. It would not be perfect, but it beats staying there for another decade wasting hundreds of billions of dollars.

Wigon

[wigon]

What's frustration is that currently, as far as I'm aware of, there are no theological counter-extremism training coarses within the U.S. military for Psychological-Operations units for example. I've been trying to contact the right people in the military and DoD but so far no luck. I've actually had fairly good luck developing dialog with extremists and getting them to think critically about their interpretations of Islam. I'm not Muslim myself, but I understand Middle Eastern cultures (having lived in the Middle East and in Indonesia), and I understand the historical and cultural forces at play that give Islamic extremists a very romantic and passionate belief that what they are doing is the will of Allah based upon cherry picked theology taken out of historical context. I'm also a former soldier so I understand the warrior mentality that young Muslim men are often swept up in. When you see the world through their eyes, what they do is the most beautiful and most noble thing in the world that they could devote their live to. I share understanding with them but then show them passages from the Qu'ran and Hadiths (and Islamic theologians throughout history) that contradict those ideas so as to get them to think more critically. If they are made to believe that they may be in jeapordy of being a munafiqun (hyprocrit) then they know that their soul is in jeapordy of hellfire. Once they believe that, they begin their own journey towards a deeper, more spiritual, and more critical understanding of Islam rather then just an austere "FOLLOW THE RULES OR DIE" mantra as taught by many Salafi and Deobandi Muslims.

My hope is that as more and more U.S. military officers are equipped with such knowledge, that they will become vastly more skilled at dealing with young Afghani men who most likely fight for the Taliban when not smiling and shaking hands with U.S. soldiers. Afghani culture is also alot different then Iraq and is one based on pragmatism. I've had some excellent discussions with Afghan Army officers training here in the United States. They pretty much gave off the impression that they will switch sides if things appeared that America was losing power and would shoot an American soldier in the back if need be. It was nothing personal. Just a basic survival strategy that has served them for centuries. So in Afghan culture, countering that tendency of side-switching (within the ANA) and encouraging it within the Taliban should be paramount along with theological engagement with the Taliban.

Wigon

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

why cant they say TALIBAN properly??? Taaalibaaaan!! lol

[Rictor]

What's frustration is that currently, as far as I'm aware of, there are no theological counter-extremism training coarses within the U.S. military for Psychological-Operations units for example. I've been trying to contact the right people in the military and DoD but so far no luck. I've actually had fairly good luck developing dialog with extremists and getting them to think critically about their interpretations of Islam. I'm not Muslim myself, but I understand Middle Eastern cultures (having lived in the Middle East and in Indonesia), and I understand the historical and cultural forces at play that give Islamic extremists a very romantic and passionate belief that what they are doing is the will of Allah based upon cherry picked theology taken out of historical context. I'm also a former soldier so I understand the warrior mentality that young Muslim men are often swept up in. When you see the world through their eyes, what they do is the most beautiful and most noble thing in the world that they could devote their live to. I share understanding with them but then show them passages from the Qu'ran and Hadiths (and Islamic theologians throughout history) that contradict those ideas so as to get them to think more critically. If they are made to believe that they may be in jeapordy of being a munafiqun (hyprocrit) then they know that their soul is in jeapordy of hellfire. Once they believe that, they begin their own journey towards a deeper, more spiritual, and more critical understanding of Islam rather then just an austere "FOLLOW THE RULES OR DIE" mantra as taught by many Salafi and Deobandi Muslims.

My hope is that as more and more U.S. military officers are equipped with such knowledge, that they will become vastly more skilled at dealing with young Afghani men who most likely fight for the Taliban when not smiling and shaking hands with U.S. soldiers. Afghani culture is also alot different then Iraq and is one based on pragmatism. I've had some excellent discussions with Afghan Army officers training here in the United States. They pretty much gave off the impression that they will switch sides if things appeared that America was losing power and would shoot an American soldier in the back if need be. It was nothing personal. Just a basic survival strategy that has served them for centuries. So in Afghan culture, countering that tendency of side-switching (within the ANA) and encouraging it within the Taliban should be paramount along with theological engagement with the Taliban.

Wigon

So what you're saying is that the Taliban are not necessarily the Wehrmacht In Turbans, as they've been portrayed for eight years now? Intriguing. I wish you all the best in your efforts, though given Afghanistan's history I can't say I'm optimistic.

Personally, the main reason for negotiating with Taliban, or elements thereof, ought to be the simple reality that they can and will outstay the United States. It's their turf; they can fight this war for another century if need be. So the only way to make progress is to acknowledge that and work around it.

[wigon]

Yeah you pretty much summed up my rationale in a nutshell. I don't like the Taliban, but there are alot of people and groups in the world that I don't like. Life is like that and we have to learn to overcome serious differences and compromise sometimes. The alternative is to admit that we must commit genocide/ethnic cleansing using WMD's.

That of coarse would rationaize in every Muslim's mind the need for their nations to develop WMD's and advanced delivery systems to protect themselves or to strike us first before we destroy them. There's no hope for a future like that and no way of stopping that train once it's left its station.

Wigon