Overhauling the JROTC program?

[MichaelF]

(To our foreign friends, JROTC is basically like the British/Commonwealth Cadet organizations, except not as cool and with all the "tactical" items stripped away)

Should we overhaul the JROTC program?

I place this in "Politics" as anything dealing with JROTC attracts the anti-military flakes and a political foodfight ensues.

My thought is that we should keep the instructors (retired Officers, NCOs and WOs), but strip them from the school curriculum (while still quartering the units in local schools).

The UK/Commonwealth Cadet* forces are a good template to use.

Each Service would increase its supprt and afiliation with its respective sponsored units, allowing more use of Active and Reserve Component facilities and resources.

Drop JROTC as a title (the program has no relation to ROTC, and is not a preCommissioning program). "Youth Army" might be a little much...so, "X (x being "Army/Navy/AF/MC/CG") Cadet Force" might work.

Return the "tactical" items. Basic survival, marksmanship, fieldcraft, first aid, o-courses, individual movement, etc. Why? Because it's cool, and builds self-confidence and motivation.
The AF Cadets should have access to gliders and light a/c (possibly in association with the Civil Air Patrol), as well as chances to earn a pilots license, as the UK ATC does.
Navy Cadets should get sail and deck training.

Implement basic physical standards, like those required for participation in school athletics.

Expand the program to Middle School students.

A system of Cadet rank/qualifications. Accomplishment begets recognition. Basic (local) leadership courses for cadet NCOs and JOs.

Give the Instructors an official position (in the UK, they are a special status, non-deployable branch of the various Reserve forces), and refresher training to support them.

Annual camps in the Summer. Give them several options (we've got bases all over). The current US Naval Sea Cadet Corps is pretty good at this.


Each branch of the US Armed Forces maintains a Junior Reserve Officers’ Training Corps, organized into units. As of June 2006, there are a total of 3,229 units:

1555 Army AJROTC units
794 Air Force AFJROTC units
619 Navy NJROTC units
260 Marine Corps MCJROTC units
1 Coast Guard JROTC unit

For purposes of disclosure: I'm a product of Army JROTC (Tate HS, FTW!). That led me to ROTC in College (Go Rebels!), and then a Commission in the US Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jrotc

A sample of how the UK's ACF (Army Cadet Force) operates:


Fieldcraft
In fieldcraft lessons, cadets learn infantry skills such as patrolling, section battle drills, ambush drills, harbour drills, and how to survive in the field. Field exercises take place once every few months, and at annual camp.

Out on exercise, cadets wear Disruptive Pattern Material camouflage clothing, dulled boots, camouflage cream to eliminate the face's natural shine, a bush hat and foliage to break up the shape of the head and shoulders, webbing to carry rifle magazines, water bottles and emergency rations, commonly one of either the 58 pattern webbing or the newer PLCE system and a bergen to carry a sleeping bag and basha (improvised shelter) building materials. Cadets are issued with 24-hour ration packs and hexamine cookers (known as Rat-Packs and Hexi cookers to cadets) as used by the infantry.

As part of a platoon, cadets set up harbour areas (operations bases), post sentries, and send out patrols to carry out reconnaissance, lay ambushes, and assault enemy positions. Cadets become familiar with a vast range of hand signals for silent communication, and various patrol formations for crossing different types of terrain, such as the arrowhead formation for crossing open country.

Skill at Arms

A Cadet Fires the L98 GP RifleNew recruits are taught how to safely handle, clean, operate and fire the Number 8 .22 Rifle and the L98A1 Cadet GP (General Purpose) 5.56 mm Rifle (see note 1). The Cadet GP is a hand operated single shot adaptation of the British Army's L85A1. Having mastered the Cadet GP and passed the one-star Skill at Arms (SAA) test, cadets can fire them using blank rounds in field exercises as part of a section, taking part in ambushes and assaults on enemy forces. They can also fire live rounds on a range, usually at annual camps, gaining marksman badges if they have enough skill. To pass one-star skill at arms, Cadets must show they can handle the weapon safely, perform stoppage drills, and field strip the weapon for daily cleaning.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force


*-members/graduates of those organizations are welcome to add their input. Some of the Russian MP.netters might be able to raise a few eyebrows with their stories, as well...

[Soldat_Américain]

Well it does. So does CAP in my opinion. I was a Sea Cadet, we do a pretty good job with everything...I would say look at that system and use it Cadet Force wide. When I was a Sea Cadet we had too many civilians that knew nothing about the military...and for some it was ok, but for most they just wanted to yell at kids and not let their cadets do their jobs.

But this is what I'd like to see:
3-week basic training evolution after this the cadet can go to further training that is also required for advancement.

I think we need to look at the British and Canadian cadet systems to reform ours.

Also Merging these programs would be a huge undertaking.

CAP is gigantic.
Sea Cadets and Young Marines put together don't equal CAP's size and resources.
Also the ACA is the Army's cadet program but they're only in some states now.

You have to centralize command because as of now you have JROTC, CAP, USNSCC, YM, and the ACA as far as national organizations are concerned.

[Bro Jangles]

Im a NJROTC grad from MPHS in WA. and we struggled to keep our "Company" Status due to low recruitment. i think it really needs to be worked on. money needs to be properly used, and PT needs to be mandatory. i really think JROTC should be a graduation requirement.

I think were they got it right is the perks for JROTC for enlisting, E3 for USA, USN, USAF, and E2 for USMC.

[MichaelF]

Only merge the "official" programs (ones sponsored by a DoD/.gov entity) that duplicate, such as Sea Cadets and Navy JROTC.

Each "force" (Army, Navy, etc) could be controlled by the respective Department (DoA, DoN, etc). Probably out of the same commands (Cadet Command, for the Army, NETC for the Navy) that now control JROTC and ROTC.

[Bro Jangles]

Only merge the "official" programs (ones sponsored by a DoD/.gov entity) that duplicate, such as Sea Cadets and Navy JROTC.

Each "force" (Army, Navy, etc) could be controlled by the respective Department (DoA, DoN, etc). Probably out of the same commands (Cadet Command, for the Army, NETC for the Navy) that now control JROTC and ROTC.
Personally, i wouldnt combine them. they each serve a great purpose. The "cadets" are a good after school program, were as JROTC is great for teaching leadership and teamwork in school.

[MichaelF]

Personally, i wouldnt combine them. they each serve a great purpose. The "cadets" are a good after school program, were as JROTC is great for teaching leadership and teamwork in school.

The schools have always been a dragging factor with JROTC. That's what led to the stripping-out of all the actual military items.

The UK model is independant of the schools. That gives it much more flexability.

[Soldat_Américain]

Only merge the "official" programs (ones sponsored by a DoD/.gov entity) that duplicate, such as Sea Cadets and Navy JROTC.

Each "force" (Army, Navy, etc) could be controlled by the respective Department (DoA, DoN, etc). Probably out of the same commands (Cadet Command, for the Army, NETC for the Navy) that now control JROTC and ROTC.
CAP and Sea Cadets are official programs...Sea Cadets mandate was established because of a Congressional Mandate. The ACA from what I understand is officially sponsored by the US Army which is why the ACA changed to all Army Units. Not so sure about YM though. But the system really needs to be changed, people should be there because they really want to be...whereas with a lot of JROTC...those kids are there for the free PE and elective credits.

[Bro Jangles]

The schools have always been a dragging factor with JROTC. That's what led to the stripping-out of all the actual military items.

The UK model is independant of the schools. That gives it much more flexability.
My school retained all military items. still have drill rifles, a shooting team, and yearly comps. but Schools NEED some way to bring atleast a small amount of teamwork to students.

[MichaelF]

My school retained all military items. still have drill rifles, a shooting team, and yearly comps. but Schools NEED some way to bring atleast a small amount of teamwork to students.

Sports. Or simply require students to participate in Cadet activities (after school). Lots of schools require extracurricular activities.

By "military items", I meant the old fieldcraft and actual non-ceremonial military activities. Army JROTC used to do them, until the 70's.

[Bro Jangles]

Sports.....
JROTC work way better than High school sports do.

[Soldat_Américain]

Well you can still teach leadership and teamwork...we have the LRC for a reason...any Army JROTC or MCJROTC kid learn how to conduct a patrol or assault a position? I did that in Sea Cadets.


JROTC work way better than High school sports do.
Didn't have JROTC in my high school...but the local JROTC programs IMO couldn't do that.

[Bro Jangles]

Well you can still teach leadership and teamwork...we have the LRC for a reason...any Army JROTC or MCJROTC kid learn how to conduct a patrol or assault a position? I did that in Sea Cadets.
and in NJROTC we didnt learn to launch a tomcat from a CVN. but we learned rates and ranks, marching, military traditions, and leadership skills. things that help you for boot, or life in general.

[Soldat_Américain]

and in NJROTC we didnt learn to launch a tomcat from a CVN. but we learned rates and ranks, marching, military traditions, and leadership skills. things that help you for boot, or life in general.
I learned those too. But what I'm saying is those programs didn't do the bread and butter of those two services.

[Bro Jangles]

I learned those too. But what I'm saying is those programs didn't do the bread and butter of those two services.
dont they teach that in boot?

[Soldat_Américain]

dont they teach that in boot?
Well I didn't learn the war fighting stuff in Sea Cadet Boot Camp.

[MichaelF]

Forest. Trees.

You could have a generic "cadet" program in the schools, and still have the "official" Cadet Force activities seperate. Provided the school board paid for the in-school program, 100%.

Branding is everything. So is resource-management. The Army (or any other Service) is only going to shell out the time and money/resources we are talking about, to achieve a UK-style Cadet organization, on a single program.

An afterschool program is most flexible. That's why Scouting isn't affiliated with school systems.

[MichaelF]

Turning kids into commandos isn't the goal. The cool tactical stuff is just the carrot.

The goal is to develop successful adults, who have a familiarity with the purpose and operation of the Armed Forces. Patriotism is another goal (as it is learned by osmosis, not lectures). General physical fitness and preparedness is a tertiary (but desirable) goal.

[Soldat_Américain]

Turning kids into commandos isn't the goal. The cool tactical stuff is just the carrot.

The goal is to develop successful adults, who have a familiarity with the purpose and operation of the Armed Forces. Patriotism is another goal (as it is learned by osmosis, not lectures). General physical fitness and preparedness is a tertiary (but desirable) goal.
But the skills were important to me at the time. However I was the Leading Petty Officer of my division as well as some other awards...but that's beside the point. I trained recruits twice once as an assistant company commander and once as a company commander; I also trained cadets at our leadership academy...granted because of the requirements at that point in time a cadet I ended up staffing with after was a grade ahead of me at the time.

[MichaelF]

But the skills were important to me at the time.

As I said: the carrot.

It gets the kids attention. The rest (that you'd never get them to sit still for, otherwise) comes in under the radar.

[Soldat_Américain]

As I said: the carrot.

It gets the kids attention. The rest (that you'd never get them to sit still for, otherwise) comes in under the radar.
That carrot wasn't used...I wanted to go to Annapolis bad and I thought it would help...and look where all my experience in cadets got me...the Army. But yes I get what you're saying...the commando stuff is the carrot and a plus but it is not the objective of the program.

[Ordie]

I was a CAP Cadet back in High School. We were part of a composite squadron and had our own aircraft.

I got alot out of CAP and the program back then was fantastic.

We did not handle weapons, we did not learn martial arts nor combat tactics. But we did fly, attended encampments at USAF bases and drilled a lot.

One thing that was really appreciated by the cadets, was that the CAP was non -judgemental, accepted everyone including people with disabilities, and it gave you a chance to earn your keep.

Ironically enough, only handful of us joined the military, none made it a career. It negates the myth that JROTC is a recruiting tool.

[brainplay]

I learned those too. But what I'm saying is those programs didn't do the bread and butter of those two services.

Not supposed to teach those. The leadership and general discipline are what high school kids more more of than anything else. After school teams were the carrot that kept the core of recruits in the program. JROTC commanders have a decent amount of leeway on what they want to do with their programs and what kind of extracurricular activities they want to plan. We did an annual trip to somewhere out of state often staying at a military base.

Did CAP for a few years before I was hooked on the ROTC shooting teams. Great fun but required afterschool transport to NAS. This was a pretty big trip for myself and several others. It killed off membership since carpooling and/or gas money wasn't always an option as membership was spread over the entire city (where as school based JROTC was nearby and activities were on campus). By the time my poor butt had a car I was already deeply invested in the JROTC after school teams. By graduation I was the cadet S-3 operations officer. I liked the CAP program but the JROTC program was more accessible and had more incentives. I also did a bit of Explorers but ran into the same problems as with CAP (they were on the same NAS) as well as the dues which my poor self could not afford.

[Ordie]

The key is to fill the gap between 2:00 - 6:00 PM when school lets out and come back from work.

[Soldat_Américain]

The key is to fill the gap between 2:00 - 6:00 PM when school lets out and come back from work.
Well I usually went home and watched television, went to the gym, and then did homework when I wasn't playing 'ball.

[Bro Jangles]

Well I usually went home and watched television, went to the gym, and then did homework when I wasn't playing 'ball.
i was at NJROTC everyday till 730. i was on almost all the teams.

[Soldat_Américain]

There's a big difference between each school's program...like the national champions in drill are really legit...and then you have schools that don't give a crap and don't even have that week long summer camp.

[MichaelF]

Depending on geographic circumstances, the organization could have "ski", "alpine" or "desert" (even "jungle", up in the PNW) unit specialties. Urban-based units would be a good excuse to get the cadets out into the rural areas.

Create a "Ranger Challenge"-style military-sport series of events that cadets can compete in, against other units from around the country.

Above all, the sponsoring Service absolutely has to get involved, and be seen to do so. That means AC/RC cadre (either permanent or periodically), transport/logistics assistance, use of Active/RC bases (barracks and facilities), etc.

The AF could put in a cool show if they provided glider certs or familiarity flights (in Air Guard C-130s, for instance) to Air Cadets.

That said, the cadet forces should have a distinctive uniform (and an inexpensive one, at that), so that no confusion (either visible or mental) arises as to who and what they are. That means no Blues or UCP for Army cadets. No MARPAT or Charlies for the Marine units.

Involvement of the various Services "supporting groups", such as the AUSA or the Navy League, is vital. Not to mention the American Legion and VFW.

Fall and Spring weekend FTXs (with multiple units from a given sector) would probably be a good idea.

[martinexsquaddie]

your not going to get US schools to have armourys not going to happen.
Cadets in the UK are either completelty seperate from school or an after school activity.
My old cadet unit at a state school had 20 old .303s two bren guns couple of .22 rifles and some air rifles.
Plus a very dubuious nazi designed glider thing that we flew via bungees in the school grounds.
Personally any sort of US cadet force that wants to play with guns needs to be seperate from school boards or is going to end in tears.

[MichaelF]

your not going to get us schools to have armourys not going to happen.
Cadets in the uk are either completelty seperate from school or an after school activity.
My old cadet unit at a state school had 20 old .303s two bren guns couple of .22 rifles and some air rifles.
Plus a very dubuious nazi designed glider thing that we flew via bungees in the school grounds.
Personally any sort of us cadet force that wants to play with guns needs to be seperate from school boards or is going to end in tears.

qft.


...........

[Corrupt]

That said, the cadet forces should have a distinctive uniform (and an inexpensive one, at that), so that no confusion (either visible or mental) arises as to who and what they are. That means no Blues or UCP for Army cadets. No MARPAT or Charlies for the Marine units.


Interesting point, different to the Cadets (and now University Air Squadron) in the UK where we wore standard Uniforms of the arm we were attatched two, the only marker being our rank tab (pure white now am an officer cadet at uni, before then with my ccf it was just an lance/cpl/sgt stripes with CCF underneath it)

[Anthony91]

I'm in the Marine JROTC program right now as a Cadet Gunnery Sergeant, but some of the things you suggested, while it would increase enrollment into the class and generate interest, would be highly impossible with all of the school board crap.

Right now, it's a real sh!tty time to be in JROTC, due to the fact that your limited to under a third of the activities you had to sign a waiver for. I remember my Freshman year signing it, we were exciting to see "Marksmanship training with the M16 rifle", "Ride in an Armored Vehicle", etc. Of course, none of it's a surprise, due to the military having far better things to have to do than haul a bunch of High School kids on an LAV-25.

[brainplay]

The logistics for an external cadet program is still going to be pretty difficult unless you can provide transport for all throughout the city. Even dividing up the city into sections is going alleviate some of the transport issues but bring up supply issues (land, housing, etc).

Basic firearm safety was taught in the JROTC programs regularly. At my old school this was done using drill rifles. Rifle and pistol team weapons consisted of Competition grade air rifles which required more in depth safety training since they could cause serious injury. These were kept on campus and fired in one of those portable buildings on stilts you see outside of every school.

.22 smallbore rifle was an option and some schools had a deal with local ranges. Transportation has handled through the school using a mini-bus to travel to the range and back to campus. Never heard of any school in Texas going above that caliber and I competed against most. Frankly there was no point either for those under 18 anyway. Too much liability and it would not improve any safety training.

Other than the uniform you've already got most of what you're looking for in the current JROTC programs. If you want a revamp, curriculm is where you want to go. Physical fitness requirements (it did substitute the PE credit in high school) of some sort. More focus on community service and discipline. The people on "teams" or aspiring to be on teams stood out from the rest in their presentation.

Get too militant and the school board will come down on the program if put under pressure by liberal groups. Get too reliant on real military during a war and you're asking for a serious letdown. Get too exclusive and you leave the poor kids out of the loop who will benefit from the discipline and comraderie the most (committing weekend crimes instead of team competition prep get togethers).

Let the college level ROTC guys handle the next tier up.

[Bro Jangles]

^ most of our local units allow .177 competition shooting in schools.


I'm in the Marine JROTC program right now as a Cadet Gunnery Sergeant, but some of the things you suggested, while it would increase enrollment into the class and generate interest, would be highly impossible with all of the school board crap.

Right now, it's a real sh!tty time to be in JROTC, due to the fact that your limited to under a third of the activities you had to sign a waiver for. I remember my Freshman year signing it, we were exciting to see "Marksmanship training with the M16 rifle", "Ride in an Armored Vehicle", etc. Of course, none of it's a surprise, due to the military having far better things to have to do than haul a bunch of High School kids on an LAV-25.
also there is a lack of marines around to do that.

JROTC is not a Recruitment/Training tool. it is meant to instill a element of Teamwork and leadership in high school students. the mission was never to make kids ready for combat or create mini militias.

[Soldat_Américain]

^ most of our local units allow .177 competition shooting in schools.


also there is a lack of marines around to do that.

JROTC is not a Recruitment/Training tool. it is meant to instill a element of Teamwork and leadership in high school students. the mission was never to make kids ready for combat or create mini militias.
I think it was to inspire patriotism as well as get kids off the street.

[Martino]

The mission of Army JROTC is to "motivate young people to become better citizens" and blah blah blah blah........

I don't think JROTC needs an overhaul and I believe an external cadet program would be way to drastic. However, I do believe that standards need to be upheld more stringently, not to accommodate kids to increase enrollment. Uniformity is a big thing too. Too many units play by their own rules and regs even within the same region and training brigade.


andddddddd I'm done complaining

[MichaelF]

If the Brits and Canadians/Australians can do it (and they have wayyyy less militarization in their civil societies than we do)...I see no reason that we cannot do as much*.

The related question: "Is the British model more effective than the JROTC model?" is perhaps a question of personal opinion. Mine is that it is, having seen it up close (both as a kid, and having seen the Cadets a while back while working with the British Army).


*-the US has a different (wider) geographical population spread. But so do the Canadians, and they run a successful program...

[MichaelF]

I think it was to inspire patriotism as well as get kids off the street.

And to give the kids (future voters) an understanding of what the Armed Forces are and what they do.

[MichaelF]

For an example of what I'm getting at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force

http://www.youtube.com/v/jC__wbD83EI&hl=en&fs=1&

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Training_Corps

http://www.youtube.com/v/W8LfM2Q28l0&hl=en&fs=1&

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Cadet_Corps_(United_Kingdom)

http://www.youtube.com/v/JUKH2C4YwMk&hl=en&fs=1&

[Corrupt]

.22 smallbore rifle was an option and some schools had a deal with local ranges. Transportation has handled through the school using a mini-bus to travel to the range and back to campus. Never heard of any school in Texas going above that caliber and I competed against most. Frankly there was no point either for those under 18 anyway. Too much liability and it would not improve any safety training.


In the UK we fire .22 and Full bore (5.56 and 7.62 rifles) from the age of 13 with cadets and I first fired the LSW at 14 just as an experience and regularly used one at ages 16-18 as a senior cadet to live fire and we never had any major safety issues. Interestingly almost every weapon i fired at the age of 13-17 apart from the target rifles and .22 rifles were illegal in civvie hands, but fine for teenagers to carry aslong as theres a forces NCO somewhere within a kilometre or so.

Point being why would it be such a liability, we rarely have issues with cadets shooting each other in the UK.

[commanding]

One interesting recommendation that Col. Hammes makes in the book "the Sling and the Stone" is to about halve the number of officers in the U.S. military...which to me would indicate a reduction in the Officers training corps. However he does recommend other expansions of certain abilities in the military...so it might just be a matter of renaming SOME of the pre military training to something else.

[brainplay]

In the UK we fire .22 and Full bore (5.56 and 7.62 rifles) from the age of 13 with cadets and I first fired the LSW at 14 just as an experience and regularly used one at ages 16-18 as a senior cadet to live fire and we never had any major safety issues. Interestingly almost every weapon i fired at the age of 13-17 apart from the target rifles and .22 rifles were illegal in civvie hands, but fine for teenagers to carry aslong as theres a forces NCO somewhere within a kilometre or so.

Point being why would it be such a liability, we rarely have issues with cadets shooting each other in the UK.

JROTC is directly associated with our high schools and is integrated into the curriculm. Grades and Credit from the JROTC program are part of your overall school GPA. Anything the JROTC program does needs approval of a school board first. Having a school board approve a liability insurance or waiver program isn't exactly easy. Getting them to approve one that includes EVIL BODY SLAYING BLACK RIFLES OF DEATH is almost impossible (yes, school boards will see an M16 as just that). Basic firearm safety is universal regardless of the weapon and is not the same as weapon familiarization.

The UK Army Cadet program is a separate entity. We have similar groups like Civil Air Patrol, Young Marines, Boy Scouts, etc. Heck we popped off rounds with local AR-15's in Boy Scouts when we had access but that was under a different set of rules.

[Corrupt]

JROTC is directly associated with our high schools and is integrated into the curriculm. Grades and Credit from the JROTC program are part of your overall school GPA. Anything the JROTC program does needs approval of a school board first. Having a school board approve a liability insurance or waiver program isn't exactly easy. Getting them to approve one that includes EVIL BODY SLAYING BLACK RIFLES OF DEATH is almost impossible (yes, school boards will see an M16 as just that). Basic firearm safety is universal regardless of the weapon and is not the same as weapon familiarization.

The UK Army Cadet program is a separate entity. We have similar groups like Civil Air Patrol, Young Marines, Boy Scouts, etc. Heck we popped off rounds with local AR-15's in Boy Scouts when we had access but that was under a different set of rules.

Aaaah yeah i see the problem. My schools cadet unit was affiliated to the school, but entirely optional as an extra curricular activity and was mostly independant (other than havin an armoury on site which was always a laugh when little kids ask if the guns are real) Fair enough then, I was just wondering why it was so bad.

Remind me of some reported asking someone teaching army cadets weapon safety and saying surely he was training killers by equipping them with skills to fire rifles and his reply was something like "well you're equipped with a vagine but not every woman is a whore"

[MichaelF]

One interesting recommendation that Col. Hammes makes in the book "the Sling and the Stone" is to about halve the number of officers in the U.S. military....

That's another argument entirely. Start a new thread and maybe you will find out the reason we have a massive surplus of Officers (and SNCOs) in the US Army.

[MichaelF]

JROTC is directly associated with our high schools and is integrated into the curriculm. Grades and Credit from the JROTC program are part of your overall school GPA. Anything the JROTC program does needs approval of a school board first. Having a school board approve a liability insurance or waiver program isn't exactly easy. Getting them to approve one that includes EVIL BODY SLAYING BLACK RIFLES OF DEATH is almost impossible (yes, school boards will see an M16 as just that). Basic firearm safety is universal regardless of the weapon and is not the same as weapon familiarization.

The UK Army Cadet program is a separate entity. We have similar groups like Civil Air Patrol, Young Marines, Boy Scouts, etc. Heck we popped off rounds with local AR-15's in Boy Scouts when we had access but that was under a different set of rules.

Hence the need to seperate the program from the schools. It also artificially constricts the time the program has, and splits the cadets up into small groups (to accomodate the school's class schedule). The UK programs don't have that problem, being afterschool activities.