Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS

[Breakfast in Vegas]

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/africa-is-giving-nothing-to-anyone--apart-from-aids-1430428.html

Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS



No. It will not do. Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilisation in Zimbabwe, the begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us, yet again.

It is nearly 25 years since Ethiopia's (and Bob Geldof's) famous Feed The World campaign, and in that time Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78 million today.

So why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country? Where is the logic? There is none. To be sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count.

One is my conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed child, yet again, gazing, yet again, at the camera, which yet again, captures the tragedy of . . .

Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially. Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there. The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a priapic, Kalashnikov-bearing hearty, siring children whenever the whim takes him.

There is, no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and ****** system; but I do not know what it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this.

It will win no friends, and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous, letter-writing wrathful, a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously. So be it.

But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of our own Famine, with this or that lazy analogy. There is no comparison. Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30pc. Over the equivalent period, thanks to western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck and the Lockheed Hercules, Ethiopia's has more than doubled.

Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness. Somewhere, over the rainbow, lies Somalia, another fine land of violent, Kalashnikov-toting, khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts.
Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of ******ly
hyperactive indigents, with tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world.

This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or commonsense. Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the next president of South Africa being a firm believer in the efficacy of a little tap water on the post-coital ***** as a sure preventative against infection. Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre, Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera.

Broad brush-strokes, to be sure. But broad brush-strokes are often the way that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters. Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa.

They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa, whereas Africa, with its vast savannahs and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.

Meanwhile, Africa's peoples are outstripping their resources, and causing catastrophic ecological degradation. By 2050, the population of Ethiopia will be 177 million: The equivalent of France, Germany and Benelux today, but located on the parched and increasingly protein-free wastelands of the Great Rift Valley.

So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult population of what is already a vastly over-populated, environmentally devastated and economically dependent country?

How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and ****** abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably jolly little lives ahead of them? Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity. But that is not good enough.

For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed.

It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade. It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating.

If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts. Oh good: then what?I know. Let them all come here. Yes, that's an idea.

kmyers@independent.ie

The Irish do have the gift of gab...

[2495]

I agree with it actually. Why should we continue to be 'guilt tripped' into feeding the masses who don't give a fvck about each other and just expect the white man to feed them ad infinitum?

The west should say enoughs enough, your on your own now - 20 years of aid and your still a fvcked up sh1thole? well, sh1t happens, we're off.

Toodle Pip.

Same with Zimbabwe - they starting to ask for western help after killing all the white farmers; well, they can fvck off as well.

[Skutatos]

Being of the utilitarian persuasion...I agree entirely. The best thing people can do for Africa is to make them solve their own problems. Obviously many people would die as a result...but their future would be saved and that is what matters.

[Atari400]

Being of the utilitarian persuasion...I agree entirely. The best thing people can do for Africa is to make them solve their own problems. Obviously many people would die as a result...but their future would be saved and that is what matters.

Agree, 100%.

[Ordie]

Perhaps we should adopt a foreign aid policy to help countries that help themselves.

[wotsnext]

It's a poor situation thats for sure but allowing children to starve to death is a step too far for me.

[Switek]

Well, I hope we will see the result of Chinese "investment" invasion on Africa soon...

[deadlast]

I'm going to have to agree with this article. You would think the people/countries sending in foodstuffs would have had the foresight for such issues.

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day, and has 6 babies, and expects you to feed them too.

[martinexsquaddie]

well possibly if the countries got a chance to move beyond subsitence farming and people at the bottom got a bit more money they would'nt want to have 12 kids.
where do you think most of the raw materials for mobile phones come from africa.
First there was colonisation that screwed over africa.
The the US and soviets took over and encouraged the mad and the bad :(

[CMNot]

Aid is influence.

[lotsoffreetime]

The aid given by America is the only thing that gives them the idea that this country isn't as bad as they heard it was, especially in countries infested with jihadi wannabe and al Qaeda. For your own sake, keep the aid coming.

[tea drinker]

The Irish do have the gift of gab...
Ha ha it's all part of our charm p-)

Myers is a bit of a loudmouth, he is as likely to have you in a rage as agreeing with him. But he seems to be hitting a few bullseyes lately.


Aid is influence.
And influence in a sh1thole is still sh1t.

nobody wants to talk about why we didn't bomb the place with condoms. Or why they had kids and THEN figure out they couldn't feed them.

And yeah, it's China's playground now - let's see of they can turn a profit.


It's a poor situation thats for sure but allowing children to starve to death is a step too far for me.
What can we do mate? Give them a few bob more and say this is absolutley the last time?
I have my favourite charities - this isn't one of them. There are many worthy causes for people, do we have money or time for all of them? But I don't want to be the one telling some dad his kid is excess. WTF to do?

[PeterG]

All 'aid' should stop now. It is good for nothing. I'm all for fair trade though. Africa need to stop living on benefits - and get a job. If we let them.

[Skutatos]

It's a poor situation thats for sure but allowing children to starve to death is a step too far for me.

It will only get worse if we continue to help...as this article state their population is exploding, leading to even wider starvation, violence, etc. Its really a matter of a shorter period of death by starvation until they get their **** together vs death by starvation, violence, and disease ad infinitum. Sometimes you just can't fix other's problems.

[Skutatos]

well possibly if the countries got a chance to move beyond subsitence farming and people at the bottom got a bit more money they would'nt want to have 12 kids.
where do you think most of the raw materials for mobile phones come from africa.
First there was colonisation that screwed over africa.
The the US and soviets took over and encouraged the mad and the bad :(

Colonization didn't screw over africa...sure it's a somewhat morally ambiguous part of the world's history but I think it is pretty universally recognized that it was de-colonization that screwed the africans. They were dumped on their asses and left without really being taught how to keep the good times going...although that is what the africans wanted in most places I suppose.

[Eye]

I guess Rhodesia was much more better place for locals then Zimbabwe is. Maybe a kind of peaceful recolonization could be solution.

[epictetus]

I'm going to have to agree with this article. You would think the people/countries sending in foodstuffs would have had the foresight for such issues.

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day, and has 6 babies, and expects you to feed them too.

That made me chuckle. Totally agree with the article. We actually increase their suffering with each dollar sent over. Maybe it sounds cruel, but sometime you have to respect nature's laws.

[2495]

I guess Rhodesia was much more better place for locals then Zimbabwe is. Maybe a kind of peaceful recolonization could be solution.


My wifes family fought hard to keep Rhodesia a civilised country, and then it went to Zimbabwe, and they stayed on to farm - Her Great Uncle Bruce paid excellent wages, treated his workers fair, and gave alot back in return for the hard work of his staff.

still, it wasn't enough, because he was dragged from his farm, tied to a truck and dragged 11 miles to his death.

Just because he was white, and had a productive farm and the blacks thought they deserved it for free. Its now a deserted dust bowl.

Africa can starve for all I give a sh1t, let the vultures grow fat.

[RoyB]

Africa got a huge potential in terms of natural resources etc etc..
But it seems like it can't develop, and it won't.. not because the white men or whatever gone through in there over the years.. but because of the fact that can't freaking develop, ever. no matter what you'll throw at them.

[Dinges]

Until you live here you will never know nor comprehend.

Do not quote this post , do not ask for more info. For I will not answer.

But I will put forth a challenge. Come here , live here. And make up your own mind.

It is paradise. I'll never leave beautiful Africa.

[budgie]

Until you live here you will never know nor comprehend.

Do not quote this post , do not ask for more info. For I will not answer.

But I will put forth a challenge. Come here , live here. And make up your own mind.

It is paradise. I'll never leave beautiful Africa.

Have to agree. I may yet go live in Africa at some point. I've been there maybe a dozen times times, northern and southern and have to say I like it. Yes the countries are poor, corrupt and underdeveloped but Africa is also full of beautiful people and abundant natural resources.

If we want China to expand its influence thre, feed and arm dictatorships and reap the benefits of the gas and oil reserves, precious metals and rare earths, then I guess we can just go ahead and turn our backs on the place. I guarantee life will become even worse for the average African than it is now.

The good guys don't quit.

[Switek]

I guess Rhodesia was much more better place for locals then Zimbabwe is. Maybe a kind of peaceful recolonization could be solution.


I hosted a student of medicine from Zimbabwe this weekend, and I'm a totally surprised of her attitude. Total lack of economic awareness and very naive, IMHO, belief that they as relatively young state are in temporarily crisis... Well, may be Mugabe is not the best president but is our, one o us...

The problem is tribal conservative system where individuals are only parts of broader system. The system which is accepted regardless economic collapse...

[TheSteve]

Yeah, ****ing Africa. They should have jumped right back from Colonialism in what, say 10 or 20 years max? I mean seriously, they could have easily restricted all their national borders to reflect their actual ethnic and tribal divisions.

[West Texican]

I don't mind handing over some pocket change. From what I've been told 5 cents will feed a village of 10,000 for a month. Walmart could learn a lot from Africa.

[2495]

Until you live here you will never know nor comprehend.

Do not quote this post , do not ask for more info. For I will not answer.

But I will put forth a challenge. Come here , live here. And make up your own mind.

It is paradise. I'll never leave beautiful Africa.

South Africa - Beautiful scenery violent sh1t hole: Durban.. well what can one say about durban?

Zimbabwe - Beautiful scenery, violent sh1t hole: Harare, starving, violent, destructive regime.

Somalia, Kenya, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Mozambique, Niger, Congo... Freaking hell, and thats just the countries that make the news... Oh and Nigeria.

Africa as a continent is doomed, for one reason and one reason alone - the blacks still live inside a deeply tribal mentality, and until they step out of that mentality, their entire continent is fvcked, forever.

personally, I think its funny as hell that the Chinese have them sweating their balls off for low wages, and the blacks complaining that they don't get treated well..

[CMNot]

South Africa - Beautiful scenery violent sh1t hole: Durban.. well what can one say about durban?

You don't know your **** from your elbow.

[2495]

I will go take a screen grab as the formats screwed up.





South Africa, Violent, ugly, nasty sh1t hole. Durban being the very scum **** at the bottom of the barrel.

[Universal_Soldier]

Being of the utilitarian persuasion...I agree entirely. The best thing people can do for Africa is to make them solve their own problems. Obviously many people would die as a result...but their future would be saved and that is what matters.

what exactly does that statement mean?
"Obviously many people would die as a result...but their future would be saved and that is what matters."

What are you suggesting?

[2495]

The following statistics have been sourced from the South African Police Services (http://www.saps.org.za/) and refer to the following Police Station areas: Newark, Stanger, Glendale, Umhlali, Ndwedwe, Tongaat, Verulam, Inanda, Phoenix, Durban North, Kwamashu, Greenwood Park, Newlands, Kwadabeka, Sydenham, Mayville, CR Swart, Berea, Point, Umbilo, Cato Manor, Malvern, Westville, Pinetown, Hillcrest, Mariannhill, Kwadengezi, Chatsworth, Bellair, Montclair, Bayview, Maydon Wharf, Brighton Beach, Wentworth, Lamontville, Umlazi, Isipingo, Isipingo Beach, Kwamakutha, Umbumbulu, Amanzimtoti, Umkomaas



http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/3146/durbancrime1.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4656/durbancrime2.jpg


My wifes extended family moved from Zimbabwe to South Africa, and then straight to the UK.

[2495]

You don't know your **** from your elbow.


South Africa - beautiful scenery, violent sh1t hole. Statistics speak for themselves you delusional tw4t.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8164/sacrime.jpg

[Universal_Soldier]

South Africa - Beautiful scenery violent sh1t hole: Durban.. well what can one say about durban?

Zimbabwe - Beautiful scenery, violent sh1t hole: Harare, starving, violent, destructive regime.

Somalia, Kenya, Rwanda, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Mozambique, Niger, Congo... Freaking hell, and thats just the countries that make the news... Oh and Nigeria.

Africa as a continent is doomed, for one reason and one reason alone - the blacks still live inside a deeply tribal mentality, and until they step out of that mentality, their entire continent is fvcked, forever.

personally, I think its funny as hell that the Chinese have them sweating their balls off for low wages, and the blacks complaining that they don't get treated well..

What are you talking about? Africa wasn't like Persia or Arabs....they didn't fight to kill themselves since the beginning of time. Somehow these cycle of violence started after the colonization.

Let me give you a brief history of Nigeria and where some of Her problems is coming from. The Northern and Southern parts of Nigeria were two different locals. In early 20th century the Christian missionaries were present southwestern and southeastern parts of the country but rarely ventured into the north (due to their Islamic inclinations and harsh weather perhaps). The River Niger and River Benue naturally separated the area into two parts. But the British, under the leadership of Lord Lugard amalgamated the North and South even though they had nothing in common (lifestyle, religion to say the least). This is a common practise called divide and rule.
The consiquencies has been grave. It is certainly not the source of all evil but a little context is always in order.

[LoboCanada]

I agree with it actually. Why should we continue to be 'guilt tripped' into feeding the masses who don't give a fvck about each other and just expect the white man to feed them ad infinitum?


Shouldn't refer to the West as the white man.


Until you live here you will never know nor comprehend.

But I will put forth a challenge. Come here , live here. And make up your own mind.

It is paradise. I'll never leave beautiful Africa.


Yeah, ****ing Africa. They should have jumped right back from Colonialism in what, say 10 or 20 years max? I mean seriously, they could have easily restricted all their national borders to reflect their actual ethnic and tribal divisions.

Love the last two quoted posts.

[Skutatos]

what exactly does that statement mean?
"Obviously many people would die as a result...but their future would be saved and that is what matters."

What are you suggesting?

Im suggesting that after a period of starvation things would begin to equalize and they would be able to have a large population and support it too. The population in these countries are far outstripping any capability to support them anyways and you will have starvation on an even larger and more unprecedented scale...

Of course you could take Bernard William's simple argument against utilitarianism which I think is interesting. He says if you were presented with 20 prisoners who would all be executed unless you were to kill just one of them that there is a distinction between killing someone personally and killing by omission which would not be your fault and thus you would maintain your moral integrity.

I personally do not see a distinction since in both cases your actions result in death, and killing one person and saving 19 is clearly better than killing 20.

Sorry for going off on a little philosophy 101.

[Universal_Soldier]

Im suggesting that after a period of starvation things would begin to equalize and they would be able to have a large population and support it too. The population in these countries are far outstripping any capability to support them anyways and you will have starvation on an even larger and more unprecedented scale...

Of course you could take Bernard William's simple argument against utilitarianism which I think is interesting. He says if you were presented with 20 prisoners who would all be executed unless you were to kill just one of them that there is a distinction between killing someone personally and killing by omission which would not be your fault and thus you would maintain your moral integrity.

I personally do not see a distinction since in both cases your actions result in death, and killing one person and saving 19 is clearly better than killing 20.

Sorry for going off on a little philosophy 101.

You have serious issues.

[Skutatos]

What are you talking about? Africa wasn't like Persia or Arabs....they didn't fight to kill themselves since the beginning of time. Somehow these cycle of violence started after the colonization.

Let me give you a brief history of Nigeria and where some of Her problems is coming from. The Northern and Southern parts of Nigeria were two different locals. In early 20th century the Christian missionaries were present southwestern and southeastern parts of the country but rarely ventured into the north (due to their Islamic inclinations and harsh weather perhaps). The River Niger and River Benue naturally separated the area into two parts. But the British, under the leadership of Lord Lugard amalgamated the North and South even though they had nothing in common (lifestyle, religion to say the least). This is a common practise called divide and rule.
The consiquencies has been grave. It is certainly not the source of all evil but a little context is always in order.

You may be surprised at the amount of violence and slavery in africa before colonialism. In many places colonialism put an end to inter-tribal warfare and arab slave trading, which in places like Congo, 300,000 africans were being sold to arabs every year by some estimates. There were of course some very bad people at work in africa, like Leopold, but the majority were not so brutal.

[Skutatos]

You have serious issues.

So you just want them to go on in misery forever rather than a short period of misery followed by relative stability and success? You are thinking with your emotions.

[Universal_Soldier]

You may be surprised at the amount of violence and slavery in africa before colonialism. In many places colonialism put an end to inter-tribal warfare and arab slave trading, which in places like Congo, 300,000 africans were being sold to arabs every year by some estimates. There were of course some very bad people at work in africa, like Leopold, but the majority were not so brutal.

You have issues like I said. Ordinarily, I would want to have conversation with someone suggesting starvation of millions of people who did nothing but being born in Africa.

Your conjecture is hardly a response to my earlier post because they seem unrelated. Besides, which intertribal warefare did colonialism stop in Congo. And don't make generalities, give concrete answers or drop your it all together.

[CMNot]

South Africa - beautiful scenery, violent sh1t hole. Statistics speak for themselves you delusional tw4t.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[Universal_Soldier]

So you just want them to go on in misery forever rather than a short period of misery followed by relative stability and success? You are thinking with your emotions.

you are the one thinking clearly??? :roll::roll:

Starvation is hardly brief for your information. I don't know if you've been to Africa but I've been to 13 different African countries and I know a thing or two about them.

[Derbedeu]

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

He's right though. In fact I just saw an interesting documentary on South Africa. I would definitely not want to live there. You should check it out. It's called District 9 I believe.










p-)

[MichaelF]

Do not quote this post.


Haha!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Skutatos]

You have issues like I said. I would want to have conversation with some suggesting starvation of millions of people who did nothing being born in Africa.

Your conjecture is hardly a response to my earlier post because they seen unrelated. Besides, which intertribal warefare did colonialism stop in congo. And don't make generalities give concrete answers or drop your it all together.

I am not responsible for the irresponsibility of their parents. I feel bad for them like any human being would, but I will not help to make it worse.

Read the book "WW1 in Africa" for your answers. It gives a good history of colonialism in africa up to that point, the good and bad, and how WW1 started to bring an end to it.

A period of starvation would be brief in the grand scheme of things. Also I do not believe that a vast number would die. Why? Because africans would start to fix their own problems once we stopped spoonfeeding them. It would probably increase the strength of the AU which would be a big help for getting africa on it's feet. If they did not, who would be to blame? Africans.

What do african nations do when their neighbors are starving? Hmmm? They just say "dont worry, the UN will take care of it, it is not our problem". Africans must solve Africa's problems.

[Gesher]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=137635

repost of an old article, but nonetheless an interesting one

[Universal_Soldier]

I am not responsible for the irresponsibility of their parents. I feel bad for them like any human being would, but I will not help to make it worse.

Read the book "WW1 in Africa" for your answers. It gives a good history of colonialism in africa up to that point, the good and bad, and how WW1 started to bring an end to it.

A period of starvation would be brief in the grand scheme of things. Also I do not believe that a vast number would die. Why? Because africans would start to fix their own problems once we stopped spoonfeeding them. It would probably increase the strength of the AU which would be a big help for getting africa on it's feet. If they did not, who would be to blame? Africans.

What do african nations do when their neighbors are starving? Hmmm? They just say "dont worry, the UN will take care of it, it is not our problem". Africans must solve Africa's problems.

You are full of it. I told you I didn't want generalities and that I needed specific answers from you to make sure I'm not wasting my time with a total nitwit. You instead dabbled back into generalities to justify your thick-skulled comments.

If you believe that Africa is currently being spoofed, then you have never been to Africa. You apparently believe that Africans are currently surviving on foreign aid. I will stop here cos you know little of what you talking about.

[2495]

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

hahahah even SA Police shoot it out with each other - remember this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/l8Aqzs-KoAA

South Africa - A fvcking scum hole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/eDRg-bPdCOU

This final ones an oldie, bit long, but man oh man, South Africa, what a fvcking **** hole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/3YzcbasMICI

[Reaver]

I have to say not every country in africa is a **** hole, some of the northern countrys are very nice and high standards of living. Most of Southern Africa is not that bad either. South Africa has a really bad crime, however you dont hear about places like Botswana.

I do have to say I agree with the article, Africans have to realize that have to find it in them selves to make something of them selves, and that they cant live on hand outs all the time, and if they want to live like us they will have to do alot of cultrual changes, like moving from substance farming to industrial level farming in order to feed their popuations, and we have helped some africa countrys do that, however bleeding hearts from green peace try to stop that, becuase modren argi practises are bad!

Rant Rant Rant:P

[timetraveller]

It's a poor situation thats for sure but allowing children to starve to death is a step too far for me.


Very true but the fault lies with those in the various Goverments who are crooked to the core , and where has all the money gone whats it been spent on ?

And the serious lack of Foreign Investment is another crucial factor and the Goverments ignorance or the fact they don't give a 2 hoots though some Countries who's main sole of income is safari parks but still that ain't enough ...

And i've lost count how many times Ethiopa was the center for Fund raising on Blue Peter , I don't know if such expenditure is published online given the public actual info of where there money goes .. again whom are we know if they are telling the truth .

Also when you have Celebrities talking about Africa and poverty etc , Ie Bono he is nothing more than a hypocrite when he will never take a family in off the street because they happen to be homeless , It's fine well to be seen preaching to the masses , but actually being seen doing the right thing is few and far between when only care about there PR image

Liveaid and Live Earth 2 of the biggest events which many only remember for who played than rather for the reasons behind it ..
IE Pink Floyd reunion at LiveEarth more people talked about that than what actually happens in Africa ...

[BlackFlag]

2495, we can all tell you feel strongly about Africa, particularly South Africa. However, we have a lot of African users on this forum, and calling their homeland a sh*t hole and the like is childish, offensive, and most certainly flame bait.

I live in Detroit, you think I need another person who doesn't live here telling me how my hometown is a piece of crap and should be nuked for fun?

Think about what you're typing before you click, "Post reply", your future here may depend on it.

As for the article, it's hard to disagree, and in many points he's right. It's philanthropic, but irresponsible to give aid to nations who will just come to depend on that aid. However, there are a lot of variables to consider when asking yourself why Sub-Saharan nations can't get their sh*t together, such as slave trade, colonization, religious conversion etc.

I honestly don't know how I feel. Sometimes I sit and think about the fact that Humans as a species originated in Africa, which means, since Africa has had a consistent population of people for the longest time, in theory they should reached higher technology (Iron weapons, sustained agriculture, sea-faring vessels etc) faster than continents like Europe. Didn't happen that way.

I don't know..blah.

[ren0312]

2495, we can all tell you feel strongly about Africa, particularly South Africa. However, we have a lot of African users on this forum, and calling their homeland a sh*t hole and the like is childish, offensive, and most certainly flame bait.

I live in Detroit, you think I need another person who doesn't live here telling me how my hometown is a piece of crap and should be nuked for fun?

Think about what you're typing before you click, "Post reply", your future here may depend on it.

As for the article, it's hard to disagree, and in many points he's right. It's philanthropic, but irresponsible to give aid to nations who will just come to depend on that aid. However, there are a lot of variables to consider when asking yourself why Sub-Saharan nations can't get their sh*t together, such as slave trade, colonization, religious conversion etc.

I honestly don't know how I feel. Sometimes I sit and think about the fact that Humans as a species originated in Africa, which means, since Africa has had a consistent population of people for the longest time, in theory they should reached higher technology (Iron weapons, sustained agriculture, sea-faring vessels etc) faster than continents like Europe. Didn't happen that way.

I don't know..blah.

You might want to check out the past research done by Bruce Lahm about the links between genetics and IQ scores, the conclusions reached are controversial to say the least.

[2495]

deleted because i'll leave the topic alone.

[Van Gogh]

teach a man to fish or bring him one? well the answer is simple, problem is the government doesn't know.

[Andreas]

Being of the utilitarian persuasion...I agree entirely. The best thing people can do for Africa is to make them solve their own problems. Obviously many people would die as a result...but their future would be saved and that is what matters.

I agree................

[V.I.D.]

Im suggesting that after a period of starvation things would begin to equalize and they would be able to have a large population and support it too. The population in these countries are far outstripping any capability to support them anyways and you will have starvation on an even larger and more unprecedented scale...

Of course you could take Bernard William's simple argument against utilitarianism which I think is interesting. He says if you were presented with 20 prisoners who would all be executed unless you were to kill just one of them that there is a distinction between killing someone personally and killing by omission which would not be your fault and thus you would maintain your moral integrity.

I personally do not see a distinction since in both cases your actions result in death, and killing one person and saving 19 is clearly better than killing 20.

Sorry for going off on a little philosophy 101.

You wouldn't be saying the same thing if it were opposite, would you? Would you be so "cool and rational" if your family was being debated as "only one out of twenty"? Apparently, you can't teach a little bit of common sense and empathy in Philosophy 101 classes in college.

[R/cst]

I find it really fascinating that people can try and have a discussion about a place that they only know through books or news reports. Some of you may have visited some nations in Africa but that gives you no greater insight than said books and news reports.

To truly understand and appreciate Africa you need to have been born here or at least lived here for a few years.

You seem to forget that Africa is a vast continent with multitude of different people and cultures.

The comment about Africa been a peaceful place prior to colonialism is a joke, there were plenty of wars before the Europeans set foot on Africa. I good example is the migration of the Zulu and Xhosa peoples migration down from central Africa and into southern Africa. This was the result of clashes between the different population groups.

To describe Durban a ********* is really sad and shows that you have never really visited it, yes it has got some bad spots but I am sure that your hometown also has some. But other than that Durban is a really nice place to visit and live.

Africa has problems but they are slowly been sorted out.

PS for an interesting insight into Botswana I suggest you try and get hold of this series produced by HBO www.hbo.com/no1ladiesdetectiveagency/ (http://www.hbo.com/no1ladiesdetectiveagency/)

[Danielotu]

Having gone through some of the posts on this thread, I have to say that they simply reek of pure ignorance. Yes, most African countries are battling with issues like corruption and poor governance. But painting all these countries with the same brush as broken down "****-holes" just because of what you see on the news back in Europe or the US about one or two countries is simply wrong. Sometimes, I get this feeling that some of you still believe that we Africans live on trees.

Anway, you may not have noticed, but we Adricans long believed in resolving our issues ourselves. That's why you've seen African nations band together to resolve issues as those faced in Liberia, Sierre-Leone, and regions like Darfur. Then there're other political issues like the overthrow of democratically elected govts (Equitorial Guinea & Comoros Island) that were resolved by African nations. Most times, these were achieved with little or no foreign assistance, but were all initiated by us. But you won't see that on western news channels. All you get to see are pics and videos on the news and hollywood of starving children, drought, and wars ravaging lands in a few countries (afterall, they make good news and viewing). All of a sudden, all 53 African countries are tagged as "****-holes", and we get comments like "oh noes, all african nations are going down the drain, blablabla.....". No one cares to see the good side of Africa. Afterall "nothing good comes out from Africa".

Oh...this may come as a suprise to some of you, but a majority African countries do NOT rely on foreign aid/donations (SHOCKER!!), and we'll do just fine without it. That is the very last thing we need. What we need in Africa is trade and a lot of investment.

Africa still has a long way to go, but she will definitely get there.

[Danielotu]

Well, I hope we will see the result of Chinese "investment" invasion on Africa soon...

Compared to western nations, I think the Chinese have done a far better job in Africa. At least they tend to give back to their host nations/communities through the construction of schools/roads/hospitals/etc and the creation of jobs, unlike western-based coys that only hold "seminars".

[R/cst]

Interesting

U.S. RELIANCE ON AFRICA FOR STRATEGIC MINERALS
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1984/HRA.htm

[Switek]

Compared to western nations, I think the Chinese have done a far better job in Africa. At least they tend to give back to their host nations/communities through the construction of schools/roads/hospitals/etc and the creation of jobs, unlike western-based coys that only hold "seminars".

I hope it'll bring a success and profits for Africans but I doubt. AFAIK, Chinese attitude was criticized many times as resembling colonial style. But can be wrong.

[CMNot]

He's right though. In fact I just saw an interesting documentary on South Africa. I would definitely not want to live there. You should check it out. It's called District 9 I believe.

Good stuff p-)

[Parx400]

2495, we can all tell you feel strongly about Africa, particularly South Africa. However, we have a lot of African users on this forum, and calling their homeland a sh*t hole and the like is childish, offensive, and most certainly flame bait.

I live in Detroit, you think I need another person who doesn't live here telling me how my hometown is a piece of crap and should be nuked for fun?

Think about what you're typing before you click, "Post reply", your future here may depend on it.

As for the article, it's hard to disagree, and in many points he's right. It's philanthropic, but irresponsible to give aid to nations who will just come to depend on that aid. However, there are a lot of variables to consider when asking yourself why Sub-Saharan nations can't get their sh*t together, such as slave trade, colonization, religious conversion etc.

I honestly don't know how I feel. Sometimes I sit and think about the fact that Humans as a species originated in Africa, which means, since Africa has had a consistent population of people for the longest time, in theory they should reached higher technology (Iron weapons, sustained agriculture, sea-faring vessels etc) faster than continents like Europe. Didn't happen that way.

I don't know..blah.

I thought Detroit was in Africa? Oh wait.....

[Audio]

Africa is governed by wrong people with wrong mentality. End of story.

thats why its still "aid" and not investment after all these years.

..but some scenery pics of it are sure beautiful :)

[seraosha]

Africa doesn't have any problems that Africa can't solve.
Wonderful people, a wonderful place, with almost endless possibilities.

And Africa can do it without one more dime from me.

[CPLHUNTER]

We do get blood diamonds from Africa right?

[deagle]

well, where does your country exploit to get its natural resources and diamonds from ?

[tea drinker]

Africa doesn't have any problems that Africa can't solve.
Wonderful people, a wonderful place, with almost endless possibilities.

And Africa can do it without one more dime from me.
Are you suggesting a natural cull, or that they revolutionise farming methods every 20 years?

[seraosha]

Are you suggesting a natural cull, or that they revolutionise farming methods every 20 years?

I'm suggesting that Africa solve their own problems, with their ingenuity, hard work, dedication and resolve to do the right thing for their continent, and for the multi-ethnic and cultural diversity that is one of their greatest resources.
I believe in Africa.
And I believe they can do it all without donations, hand-outs, and predatory loans.

[tea drinker]

I'm suggesting that Africa solve their own problems, with their ingenuity, hard work, dedication and resolve to do the right thing for their continent, and for the multi-ethnic and cultural diversity that is one of their greatest resources.
I believe in Africa.
And I believe they can do it all without donations, hand-outs, and predatory loans.
Maybe you are right, but a lot, I mean a LOT of people will die achieving that. :-(

[Skutatos]

You wouldn't be saying the same thing if it were opposite, would you? Would you be so "cool and rational" if your family was being debated as "only one out of twenty"?

This is the reason I actually stopped arguing with UniversalSoldier on the issue, his close proximity to the problem causes him to be very emotionally involved, as we would all be and I can understand his position.

But this also sort of proves my other point which is that most individuals would help their neighbors and especially their own family if they had to face a life-threatening situation themselves. Now, yes, obviously they may not be able to do much BUT, once they start crossing borders into the more stable nations, forming militias to raid for food and other goods, etc...the problem would now have to be remedied.


Apparently, you can't teach a little bit of common sense and empathy in Philosophy 101 classes in college.

Actually emotions do have a place in several moral philosophies, but utilitarianism is a quantitative/reductionist approach to ethics. Suffice to say that quantitative ethical approaches are not popular with people who take deontological or virtue approaches to ethics and vice versa. So we will never see eye to eye on the issue because we simply do not think in the same ways and thank God for that because no approach is the best for all circumstances.

[V.I.D.]

This is the reason I actually stopped arguing with UniversalSoldier on the issue, his close proximity to the problem causes him to be very emotionally involved, as we would all be and I can understand his position.

But this also sort of proves my other point which is that most individuals would help their neighbors and especially their own family if they had to face a life-threatening situation themselves. Now, yes, obviously they may not be able to do much BUT, once they start crossing borders into the more stable nations, forming militias to raid for food and other goods, etc...the problem would now have to be remedied.



Actually emotions do have a place in several moral philosophies, but utilitarianism is a quantitative/reductionist approach to ethics. Suffice to say that quantitative ethical approaches are not popular with people who take deontological or virtue approaches to ethics and vice versa. So we will never see eye to eye on the issue because we simply do not think in the same ways and thank God for that because no approach is the best for all circumstances.

I am not from Africa so there's no "emotional involvement thanks to proximity". Loving and debating philosophy has nothing to do with the basic human empathy. I asked you clearly: What if your immediate family lived in Africa and someone across the other side of the planet suggests it's OK if they die out of starvation, since, my gosh, it will help their country in the long run. What if the US was in the same position, would you still suggest "survival of the fittest" strategy?

If you can't say answer both of these questions with "Yes, please do refer to my family as the statistical error", then you're a hypocrite. And that, my friend, cannot be whitewashed with basic philosophical semantics.

[wilhelm]

The problem is that the circle has to be broken somehow.

The population growth in Africa is simply unsustainable and unnacceptable. This leads to starvation, instability and crime, due to too many people chasing too few resources. I've stated over the years on this site that Africans need to be made to understand that if you cannot feed or educate your 2nd or 3rd child, then it is absolutely unacceptable to have 6, 7 or 8 kids. I see it here everyday. The beggars, flotsam, and streetkids. This is not to say everybody in Africa is like this, but it does very much seem to apply to the majority. There are pockets, or countries, that have seemed to be beginning to grasp at some sort of responsibility toward this, but they are drops in the ocean.

Africans need to understand that you simply cannot just mindlessly breed and then moan and point fingers at your impoverishment. Africans need to start taking responsibility, from having sustainable families through to electing decent leaders. Anything else is just hot air.

Of the countries on this planet with the highest birthrates, 18 of the top 20 countries are in Africa. The average women in the following 11 countries of The Congo, Sierra Leone, Ethiopia, Angola, The DRC, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Somalia, Uganda, Niger, and Mali have between 6 to 8 children. The average!

Lest anyone get the wrong idea here, I was born, raised, and currently live in Africa. So I have a vested interest in seeing my fellow Africans become more sustainable. But what is going on is unacceptable. And the longer it goes on, the more it will become your problem, whether you have pay to clothe and feed, or be forced to try and absorb this excess into your own countries. This is simply not fair, particularly to your own children and grandchildren.

Aid should be given to those countries that demonstrate that they are doing something about it. If they choose not too, then they must deal with the consequences alone.

And to Universal Soldier, some of your ideas defy reality. Are you insinuating that all was peace and harmony in Africa before colonialism? Because if you are, I would urge you to educate yourself further on the matter before commenting.

[Fallap]

I survived 10 days in South Africa

Also, does anyone know how safe Namibia is?

[R/cst]

I survived 10 days in South Africa

Also, does anyone know how safe Namibia is?


I would put it on par with SA

[seraosha]

I am not from Africa so there's no "emotional involvement thanks to proximity". Loving and debating philosophy has nothing to do with the basic human empathy. I asked you clearly: What if your immediate family lived in Africa and someone across the other side of the planet suggests it's OK if they die out of starvation, since, my gosh, it will help their country in the long run. What if the US was in the same position, would you still suggest "survival of the fittest" strategy?

If you can't say answer both of these questions with "Yes, please do refer to my family as the statistical error", then you're a hypocrite. And that, my friend, cannot be whitewashed with basic philosophical semantics.

*yawn*
Does your high school debate team know how weak your forum-fu is?

Africa's problems are Africa's...just stop sending aid, let them sort it out for themselves. Any other response is paternalistic post-colonialism hand wringing over your white-mans burden gone wrong, which I don't share.

If the US was in the same boat, you can bet a kidney I'd say the same thing about the US...we'll solve our own problem, in our own way, kthnxbye.

[Dinges]

And this African should stop posting when pissed.:)

[V.I.D.]

*yawn*
Does your high school debate team know how weak your forum-fu is?

Africa's problems are Africa's...just stop sending aid, let them sort it out for themselves. Any other response is paternalistic post-colonialism hand wringing over your white-mans burden gone wrong, which I don't share.

If the US was in the same boat, you can bet a kidney I'd say the same thing about the US...we'll solve our own problem, in our own way, kthnxbye.

Sure thing pal, so you'd be OK with people proposing your family starves out for "the greater good"? I have no problem believing that, none whatsoever.

My high school debate team also asked me to remind you that it wasn't Africa's problems when those nice shiny diamonds & oil have been plundered from the "white man's burden". Then you were "helping", but now they don't need "our help" anymore. And, on top of that, like someone said earlier, the smartest thing would be to leave millions of uneducated, starved youngsters open to the jihadist philosophy surrounding them. That would bear no consequences for the future, right? I mean, after all, there is an entire Atlantic ocean between you and them. Sleep well at night.

[Audio]

My high school debate team also asked me to remind you that it wasn't Africa's problems when those nice shiny diamonds & oil have been plundered from the "white man's burden". Then you were "helping", but now they don't need "our help" anymore.

Umm...do you think it would be any different if Europe was like Africa? Do you think the tribal mentality chiefs would be helping you? Or your family???

How much did they get in aid already? What did they do with it?
Your moral highgrounds are simply wrong...they work nice in debating but have absolutely no connection to real life as it is now.
Enough is enough....we got our own problems...

...not to mention the integration shock that this ppl cause in Europe...remember France's riots couple of years back?

[seraosha]

Sure thing pal, so you'd be OK with people proposing your family starves out for "the greater good"? I have no problem believing that, none whatsoever.

Lets review the situation from a more objective position...too many people, not enough food, not enough water. Either the people move to where there is food and water, or the people die. This is not a foreign concept, this is pretty much the same for any living organism. What makes Africans different?


My high school debate team also asked me to remind you that it wasn't Africa's problems when those nice shiny diamonds & oil have been plundered from the "white man's burden". Then you were "helping", but now they don't need "our help" anymore. And, on top of that, like someone said earlier, the smartest thing would be to leave millions of uneducated, starved youngsters open to the jihadist philosophy surrounding them. That would bear no consequences for the future, right? I mean, after all, there is an entire Atlantic ocean between you and them. Sleep well at night.

I'll sleep just fine, thanks. And when I see the starving millions reaching out again for more and more and more, I'll just turn the channel, or maybe send .30 cents a day to feed a kid, and get a postcard to put on my refrigerator..
But there is no moral obligation to help people that won't help themselves.
If they can get a better deal from the Jihadis, go for it. Look at Somalia, sure seems to be working out for them, doesn't it?:roll:

[Danielotu]

... how many African states need outside peacekeeping forces as of now? ...

Apart from the Congo, Somalia, and Sudan (Darfur), the the remaining 50 countries are all ok.....well, maybe 49 `cos of Zimbabwe.

[Dennis nist]

Hi, wierd first post :)

What I gathered from our african exchangestudents in our uni is that africa has experienced a tremendous economic growth in these past 10-15 years.

The good thing is that this growth has happened, in not just mining, but sectors OUTSIDE mining.

[seraosha]

Hi and welcome to the boards!

And it's great hearing good news from Africa. I hear some of the same from Djibouti, although I have to use a grain of salt considering my friends there.p-)

[IraGlacialis]

Just curious, where does North/Mediterranean Africa fit into all of this?
I'm noticing that all of the talk is about sub-Saharan and "Horn" Africa.


Maybe you are right, but a lot, I mean a LOT of people will die achieving that. :-(
Huge reform does not come cheap and rarely comes without somebody getting hurt.
It is a really hard idea to swallow, and I know admittedly extremely hypocritical for folks that will not have to go through that (the majority, if not all, of us on this forum).

[tea drinker]

Just curious, where does North/Mediterranean Africa fit into all of this?
I'm noticing that all of the talk is about sub-Saharan and "Horn" Africa.

I'm sitting in Rabat and I find Moroccans can largely look after themselves. UAE is putting a lot of money in here in terms of housing / marina / hotel projects, so they actually have a building boom on. But it's basically a police state, ever watchful for a recurrence of the bombings they had a few years ago.

I think in general North Africa is making a fair few strides towards "normaility". There is still potential for disaster, Algeria has qaida problems as reported here. Egypt, similar qaida problem.
Libya.

[IraGlacialis]

^^^^^
It's just that that when North Africa is mentioned, it seems to be practically a separate entity than Africa itself, other than the fact that it is in the African continent.
Does it have to do with the size of the Sahara, the majority of the pop not being black, prevalence of Islam, or all of the above?
And what accounts for the comparative economic and security advantage the North seems to have over the rest of Africa (possibly barring South Africa), other than oil?

[Nansouty]

Apart from the Congo, Somalia, and Sudan (Darfur), the the remaining 50 countries are all ok.....well, maybe 49 `cos of Zimbabwe.


And Ivory Coast. The French Army is doing a topnoch job of keeping peace there.

[tea drinker]

^^^^^
It's just that that when North Africa is mentioned, it seems to be practically a separate entity than Africa itself, other than the fact that it is in the African continent.
Does it have to do with the size of the Sahara, the majority of the pop not being black, prevalence of Islam, or all of the above?
And what accounts for the comparative economic and security advantage the North seems to have over the rest of Africa (possibly barring South Africa), other than oil?
IMHO it has to do with colonialism. There are areas which benefitted better not more than other places. Also the exit strategy / conditions of withdrawal influenced the outcome. I'm sure the Moroccans were happy enough to see the french go, but they did learn from then, and got an international language to do business with. The french left behind some significant infrastructure, especially water dams for agriculture and domestic use, as well as power generation. So Morocco is a relatively wealthy stable state, meaning education is possible, and will bear fruits.
We aren't talking European norms, but they have the right idea.

Jumping continents to illustrate the point, UAE, especially Dubai are anglophiles, something to do with their role in the foundation of the state and resolving tribal differences. They have excellent education and English skillz. And Oil.

I think cultures have a memory for trauma, if your country was majorly buttfvcked in 1900 there will still be an echo today. That could manifest as poor cohesion in society for example. The African countries need about 100 years relatively conflict free to mature.

I know Europe was ripped to bits in WW2, but they had well defined societies long before this, and culture has a memory for stability and wealth too.

[RIPTIDE]

Ha ha it's all part of our charm p-)

Myers is a bit of a loudmouth, he is as likely to have you in a rage as agreeing with him. But he seems to be hitting a few bullseyes lately.

He another love/hate guy for me. And very often comes across as a wanker. But I do admire his wit, and some of his views. BTW this article is > a year old.