Russia: Pride and Power

[Ordie]

Pride and Power

By RICHARD PIPES (http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=RICHARD+PIPES&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

Russia is obsessed with being recognized as a "Great Power." She has felt as one since the 17th century, after having conquered Siberia, but especially since her victory in World War II over Germany and the success in sending the first human into space. It costs nothing to defer to her claims to such exalted status, to show her respect, to listen to her wishes. From this point of view, the recent remarks about Russia by Vice President Joe Biden in an interview with this newspaper were both gratuitous and harmful. "Russia has to make some very difficult calculated decisions," he said. "They have a shrinking population base, they have a withering economy, they have a banking sector that is not likely to be able to withstand the next 15 years."





These remarks are not inaccurate but stating them publicly serves no purpose other than to humiliate Russia. The trends the vice president described will likely make Russia more open to cooperating with the West, Mr. Biden suggested. It is significant that when our secretary of state tried promptly to repair the damage which Mr. Biden's words had caused, Izvestiia, a leading Russian daily, proudly announced in a headline, "Hillary Clinton acknowledges Russia as a Great Power."
Russia's influence on world affairs derives not from her economic power or cultural authority but her unique geopolitical location. She is not only the world's largest state with the world's longest frontier, but she dominates the Eurasian land mass, touching directly on three major regions: Europe, the Middle East and the Far East. This situation enables her to exploit to her advantage crises that occur in the most populous and strategic areas of the globe. For this reason, she is and will remain a major player in world politics.
Opinion polls indicate that most Russians regret the passing of the Soviet Union and feel nostalgia for Stalin. Of course, they miss not the repression of human rights which occurred under Communism nor the miserable standards of living but the status of their country as a force to be reckoned with: a country to be respected and feared. Under present conditions, the easiest way for them to achieve this objective is to say "no" to the one undeniable superpower, the United States. This accounts for their refusal to deal more effectively with Iran, for example, or their outrage at America's proposal to install rocket defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic. Their media delight in reporting any negative news about the United States, especially the dollar, which they predict will soon be worthless (even as their central bank holds $120 billion or 30% of its reserves in dollar-denominated U.S. securities).
One unfortunate consequence of the obsession with "great power" status is that it leads Russians to neglect the internal conditions in their country. And here there is much to be done. To begin with: the economy. The Russian aggression against Georgia has cost it dearly in terms of capital flight. Due to the decline in the global prices of energy, which constitute around 70% of Russian exports, exports in the first half of 2009 have fallen by 47%. The stock market, which suffered a disastrous decline in 2008, has recovered, and the ruble has held steady, but the hard currency reserves are melting and the future does not look promising: The latest statistics indicate that Russia's GDP this year will fall by 7%. It is this that has prompted President Dmitry Medvedev recently to demand that Russia carry out a major restructuring of her economy and end her heavy reliance on energy exports. "Russia needs to move forward," he told a gathering of parliamentary party leaders, "and this movement so far does not exist. We are marking time and this was clearly demonstrated by the crisis... as soon as the crisis occurred, we collapsed. And we collapsed more than many other countries."
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One of the major obstacles to conducting business in Russia is the all-pervasive corruption. Because the government plays such an immense role in the country's economy, controlling some of its most important sectors, little can be done without bribing officials. A recent survey by Russia's Ministry of the Interior revealed, without any apparent embarrassment, that the average amount of a bribe this year has nearly tripled compared to the previous year, amounting to more than 27,000 rubles or nearly $1,000. To make matters worse, businesses cannot rely on courts to settle their claims and disputes, and in extreme cases resort to arbitration.
The political situation may appear to a foreigner inculcated with Western values as incomprehensible. Democratic institutions, while not totally suppressed, play little role in the conduct of affairs defined by the leading ideologist of the regime as "sovereign democracy." Indeed, President Medvedev has publicly declared his opposition to "parliamentary democracy" on the grounds that it would destroy Russia.
A single party, One Russia, virtually monopolizes power, assisted by the Communists and a couple of minor affiliates. Parliamentary bodies duly pass all bills presented to them by the government. Television, the main source of news for the vast country, is monopolized by the state. One lonely radio station and a few low-circulation newspapers are allowed freedom of expression in order to silence dissident intellectuals. And yet, the population at large seems not to mind this political arrangement—an acquiescence which runs contrary to the Western belief that all people crave the right to choose and direct their government.





The solution of the puzzle lies in the fact that during their 1,000-year old history of statehood, the Russians have virtually never been given the opportunity to elect their government or to influence its actions. As a result of this experience, they have become thoroughly depoliticized. They do not see what positive influence the government can have on their lives: They believe that they have to fend for themselves. Yes, they will gladly accept social services if offered, as they had been under the Soviet government, but they do not expect them. They hardly feel themselves to be citizens of a great state, but confine their loyalties to their immediate families and friends and the locality which they inhabit. From opinion polls it emerges that they believe democracy everywhere to be a sham, that all governments are run by crooks who use their power to enrich themselves. What they demand of the authorities is that they maintain order: when asked what is more important to them—"order" or "freedom"—the inhabitants of the province of Voronezh overwhelmingly expressed preference for "order." Indeed, they identify political freedom, i.e., democracy, with anarchy and crime. Which explains why the population at large, except for the well-educated, urban minority, expresses no dismay at the repression of its political rights.
One aspect of the "great power" syndrome is imperialism. In 1991, Russia lost her empire, the last remaining in the world, as all her colonies, previously disguised as "union republics" separated themselves to form sovereign states. This imperial collapse was a traumatic experience to which most Russians still cannot adjust themselves. The reason for this lies in their history. England, France, Spain and the other European imperial powers formed their empires overseas and did so after creating national states: As a result, they never confused their imperial possessions with the mother country. Hence, the departure of the colonies was for them relatively easy to bear. Not so in the case of Russia. Here, the conquest of the empire occurred concurrently with the formation of the nation-state: Furthermore, there was no ocean to separate the colonies. As a result, the loss of empire caused confusion in the Russians' sense of national identity. They have great difficulty acknowledging that the Ukraine, the cradle of their state, is now a sovereign republic and fantasize about the day when it will reunite with Mother Russia. They find it only slightly less difficult to acknowledge the sovereign status of Georgia, a small state that has been Russian for over two centuries. The imperial complex underpins much of Russia's foreign policy.
These imperial ambitions have received fresh expression from a bill which President Medvedev has submitted in mid-August to parliament. It would revise the existing Law of Defense which authorizes the Russian military to act only in response to foreign aggression. The new law would allow them to act also "to return or prevent aggression against another state" and "to protect citizens of the Russian Federation abroad." It is easy to see how incidents could be provoked under this law that would allow Russian forces to intervene outside their borders.
How does one deal with such a difficult yet weighty neighbor, a neighbor who can cause no end of mischief if it becomes truly obstreperous? It seems to me that foreign powers ought to treat Russia on two distinct levels: one, which takes into consideration her sensitivities; the other, which responds to her aggressiveness.
We are right in objecting strenuously to Russia treating her one-time colonial possessions not as sovereign countries but dependencies lying in her "privileged zone of influence." Even so, we should be aware of their sensitivity to introducing Western military forces so close to her borders. The Russian government and the majority of its citizens regard NATO as a hostile alliance. One should, therefore, be exceedingly careful in avoiding any measures that would convey the impression that we are trying militarily to "encircle" the Russian Federation. After all, we Americans, with our Monroe Doctrine and violent reaction to Russian military penetration into Cuba or any other region of the American continent, should well understand Moscow's reaction to NATO initiatives along its borders.











This said, a line must be drawn between gentle manners and the hard realities of politics. We should not acquiesce in Russia treating the countries of her "near abroad" as satellites and we acted correctly in protesting last year's invasion of Georgia. We should not allow Moscow a veto over the projected installation of our anti-rocket defenses in Poland the Czech Republic, done with the consent of their governments and meant to protect us against a future Iranian threat. These interceptors and radar systems present not the slightest threat to Russia, as confirmed publicly by Russian general Vladimir Dvorkin, an officer with long service in his country's strategic forces. The only reason Moscow objects to them is that it considers Poland and the Czech Republic to lie within its "sphere of influence."
Today's Russians are disoriented: they do not quite know who they are and where they belong. They are not European: This is attested to by Russian citizens who, when asked. "Do you feel European?" by a majority of 56% to 12% respond "practically never." Since they are clearly not Asian either, they find themselves in a psychological limbo, isolated from the rest of the world and uncertain what model to adopt for themselves. They try to make up for this confusion with tough talk and tough actions. For this reason, it is incumbent on the Western powers patiently to convince Russians that they belong to the West and should adopt Western institutions and values: democracy, multi-party system, rule of law, freedom of speech and press, respect for private property. This will be a painful process, especially if the Russian government refuses to cooperate. But, in the long run, it is the only way to curb Russia's aggressiveness and integrate her into the global community.
Richard Pipes is Frank B. Baird Jr. professor of history, emeritus, at Harvard University. In 1981 and 1982 he served as Director of East European and Soviet Affairs in President Reagan's National Security Council
Source:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203550604574358733790418994.html

[Switek]

Another offensive and anti Russian article done by so called "expert" who dare says how Russian should live.

;)

BTW Good article, thanks for posting Ordie.

[megjur]

I'm new here but I'm amazed at the hard headedness and obstinence of our Russia friends. No amount of fact or reason logic will sway them to even consider a negative thought about Mother Russia. Good article though.

[Switek]

I'm new here but I'm amazed at the hard headedness and obstinence of our Russia friends. No amount of fact or reason logic will sway them to even consider a negative thought about Mother Russia. Good article though.

It's a long tradition here. Only 300% Russians have right to write critical opinions about Russia... Even if some facts are true than worse to the facts.... ;)

[asch]

Today's Russians are disoriented: they do not quite know who they are and where they belong. They are not European: This is attested to by Russian citizens who, when asked. "Do you feel European?" by a majority of 56% to 12% respond "practically never." Since they are clearly not Asian either, they find themselves in a psychological limbo, isolated from the rest of the world and uncertain what model to adopt for themselves
a true jewel.

[Pareto]

Today's Russians are disoriented: they do not quite know who they are and where they belong. They are not European: This is attested to by Russian citizens who, when asked. "Do you feel European?" by a majority of 56% to 12% respond "practically never." Since they are clearly not Asian either, they find themselves in a psychological limbo, isolated from the rest of the world and uncertain what model to adopt for themselves

What does it mean been Europian anyway??
I dont see much common characteristics beetwen Greeks and Norwegians for example!
it's more about Georgaphics and common set of values - which created just half century ago - that's it!

[MichaelF]

The trick with Russia is......it's Russia. Not China. Not America. Not France.
It's a unique civilization, with both "western" and "oriental" (if those terms can actually mean anything) aspects.

Expecting Russians, as a people, to embrace Western European-style liberal democracy, draw down their military, and play nice with the neighbours merely shows that someone fell asleep in history class.

All the harping on whether or not Russia is economically solvent in the long term ignores the guiding doctrine of Russia. Don't be weak. Russia will become a Prussian-style military state, an "Army with a Country", before it decides to step down from being the major Power on the World Continent. They will find a way to pay for it. They have before.

Gaffes such as recently committed by our beloved VicePOTUS only serve to stimulate the Russians into building bigger and better ramparts between them and all the people who they think (with some accuracy) seek to determine Russia's destiny.

America, in particular, has a lot in common with Russia. The current era sees us struggling against the same general group of antagonists. We both have an interest in containing China. We are both on good terms with a rising Great Power (India). We don't share any land borders or have any real historical socio-ethnic vendettas.
Indeed, Russia could make much better allies than some of our current "friends".

Our State Department, sadly, seems to prefer to set our dogs loose in their yard (Sphere of Influence) and make outrageous statements. We shouldn't be surprised when the Russians don't miss an opportunity to return the favor. It's not 1995 anymore.

[Holycrusader]

One more "copy and paste" article about Russia...

Boring...

[Switek]

What does it mean been Europian anyway??
I dont see much common characteristics beetwen Greeks and Norwegians for example!
it's more about Georgaphics and common set of values - which created just half century ago - that's it!

It's perceived general order, where private ownership is protected by stable laws, is subject of succession by generations, where exists a social order ruled by system of accepted norms and what seems to be everlasting, stable, firm.

[ren0312]

The trick with Russia is......it's Russia. Not China. Not America. Not France.
It's a unique civilization, with both "western" and "oriental" (if those terms can actually mean anything) aspects.

Expecting Russians, as a people, to embrace Western European-style liberal democracy, draw down their military, and play nice with the neighbours merely shows that someone fell asleep in history class.

All the harping on whether or not Russia is economically solvent in the long term ignores the guiding doctrine of Russia. Don't be weak. Russia will become a Prussian-style military state, an "Army with a Country", before it decides to step down from being the major Power on the World Continent. They will find a way to pay for it. They have before.

Gaffes such as recently committed by our beloved VicePOTUS only serve to stimulate the Russians into building bigger and better ramparts between them and all the people who they think (with some accuracy) seek to determine Russia's destiny.

America, in particular, has a lot in common with Russia. The current era sees us struggling against the same general group of antagonists. We both have an interest in containing China. We are both on good terms with a rising Great Power (India). We don't share any land borders or have any real historical socio-ethnic vendettas.
Indeed, Russia could make much better allies than some of our current "friends".

Our State Department, sadly, seems to prefer to set our dogs loose in their yard (Sphere of Influence) and make outrageous statements. We shouldn't be surprised when the Russians don't miss an opportunity to return the favor. It's not 1995 anymore.

Everyone needs to keep in mind here that as a percentage of GDP Russia actually spends less on its military than Singapore, and is roughly in line with that of the US and China, at 4% of GDP, or about what France spent on defense as a percentage of GDP during the Cold War.

[MichaelF]

Everyone needs to keep in mind here that as a percentage of GDP Russia actually spends less on its military than Singapore, and is roughly in line with that of the US and China, at 4% of GDP, or about what France spent on defense as a percentage of GDP during the Cold War.

To some extent, the current Russian military spending is floated on a sea of legacy aquisition and funding that derives from the period ending in the mid-80's, where 25-30% of the GDP went into some form of military or defense-related programs.

It'll be interesting to see what the percentage is once the last of the Cold War-era systems is replaced (which even the US hasn't started doing in any real way, yet).

[ren0312]

To some extent, the current Russian military spending is floated on a sea of legacy aquisition and funding that derives from the period ending in the mid-80's, where 25-30% of the GDP went into some form of military or defense-related programs.

It'll be interesting to see what the percentage is once the last of the Cold War-era systems is replaced.

I think 4% is the current figure, based on IISS estimates, keep in mind the Russia is a very large country so it is always going to need a armed forces that is around 1 million strong, and there is always the possibility that its neighbor to the south may decide to annex Siberia, with its immense mineral resources and small population.

[Ordie]

I think 4% is the current figure, based on IISS estimates, keep in mind the Russia is a very large country so it is always going to need a armed forces that is around 1 million strong.

The Russian strategy historically has been to trade scorched land for time.

Keep in mind that Russia is shutting down entire Soviet era cities in the Taiga and Tundra areas in northern Siberia and shifting them towards its southern frontiers. Not that different than Canada's population density along the US Border.

[Mango Madness]

Russians are not confused about which path to take. They want to and believe that they are heading into the direction of a modern, western state. Putin's/United Russia's huge popularity is genuine and the people that vote for them generally want Russia to become a prosperous western-like state. Outside of Yabloko, United Russia is Russia's best party to take Russia on this path. Outside of them there is no "sane" opposition available to the average normal Russian; there are only radicals like the Communists, socialists and nationalists. United Russia is one huge party where all of these normal Russians have combined. This party should be split IMO so that there is at least two viable parties that can fight it out on the political scene.

[ren0312]

Russians are not confused about which path to take. They want to and believe that they are heading into the direction of a modern, western state. Putin's/United Russia's huge popularity is genuine and the people that vote for them generally want Russia to become a prosperous western-like state. Outside of Yabloko, United Russia is Russia's best party to take Russia on this path. Outside of them there is no "sane" opposition available to the average normal Russian; there are only radicals like the Communists, socialists and nationalists. United Russia is one huge party where all of these normal Russians have combined. This party should be split IMO so that there is at least two viable parties that can fight it out on the political scene.

How about Boris Nemtsov and Anatoly Chubais, both are relatively well liked by the West during the Yeltsin years.

[tea drinker]

It's perceived general order, where private ownership is protected by stable laws, is subject of succession by generations, where exists a social order ruled by system of accepted norms and what seems to be everlasting, stable, firm.
And where profits are privatised and losses are transferred to the taxpayer!

[INAT]

I love it when Euro-Atlantic types tell Slavs or Eastern Europeans about themselves.Or one country pressing its values onto another is silly.
You cannot look at all of the world from the view of the West.

The hatred of all things Russian is as strong as it ever was.
Lets just worry about no cornoring Russia and do not ever underestimate her.
The times that are the most bleek for humans especially Slavs is when we excel the most.Let Russia be Russia bad or good.Why can't they stop poking the bear with a stick over and over .I believe the globalists want a war
no matter what.

[Mousepad]

Under present conditions, the easiest way for them to achieve this objective is to say "no" to the one undeniable superpower, the United States.

When USA proposes something what is not containing "Bend over" answer is usually "Yes"


This accounts for their refusal to deal more effectively with Iran,

Well, this "to deal more effectively" as usual was "Blockade" and nothing good woll emerge from it, as usual, why support this, only one thing can emerge from it - 100% Radical Islamist country.


or their outrage at America's proposal to install rocket defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic.

Don't whine then about Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad, they not threaten US also.


One unfortunate consequence of the obsession with "great power" status is that it leads Russians to neglect the internal conditions in their country. And here there is much to be done. To begin with: the economy.

Applyable to almost any country


The Russian aggression against Georgia has cost it dearly in terms of capital flight

Uh huh for some reason this "capital flight" more connected with international crisis, + to that biggest investor country in Russia is for one particular reason is Cyprus, and it's there arright, as for Soros types of investments - i don't shed a tear bout them.


The latest statistics indicate that Russia's GDP this year will fall by 7%. It is this that has prompted President Dmitry Medvedev recently to demand that Russia carry out a major restructuring of her economy and end her heavy reliance on energy exports. "Russia needs to move forward," he told a gathering of parliamentary party leaders, "and this movement so far does not exist. We are marking time and this was clearly demonstrated by the crisis... as soon as the crisis occurred, we collapsed. And we collapsed more than many other countries."

That's good, and this little guy already done good few things for small business like me. Mousepad approves rofl rofl rofl (c) Shuimo


One of the major obstacles to conducting business in Russia is the all-pervasive corruption. Because the government plays such an immense role in the country's economy, controlling some of its most important sectors, little can be done without bribing officials.

Heh, this guy here definately is not a small businessmen. I pay bribes in Europe (all of it), in Russia and in Asia. Less in Europe, more in Asia, Russia in between. Dunno how about USA, but methinks - same sh/t.


A recent survey by Russia's Ministry of the Interior revealed, without any apparent embarrassment, that the average amount of a bribe this year has nearly tripled compared to the previous year, amounting to more than 27,000 rubles or nearly $1,000.

More or less - true.


To make matters worse, businesses cannot rely on courts to settle their claims and disputes, and in extreme cases resort to arbitration.

I've won all 2 cases against state. More to that, from yesterday bureaucrats can be put to jail for they mischiefs.


President Medvedev has publicly declared his opposition to "parliamentary democracy" on the grounds that it would destroy Russia.

Show me big multinational country with "parliamentary democracy" for starters.


A single party, One Russia, virtually monopolizes power, assisted by the Communists and a couple of minor affiliates

Small wonder if you look at Big dogs (with massive approval) who leads them. As for Communists - heck, for now they are only opposition.


Parliamentary bodies duly pass all bills presented to them by the government

For me - i for most part agree with those bills also.


And yet, the population at large seems not to mind this political arrangement—an acquiescence which runs contrary to the Western belief that all people crave the right to choose and direct their government.

As West i also believe in directing my govt, and as West i don't direct it


The solution of the puzzle lies in the fact that during their 1,000-year old history of statehood, the Russians have virtually never been given the opportunity to elect their government or to influence its actions.

It's muza fukking 1000 years!!! u fags :) By that time back, West was wiping they arses with chain-mail on remains of Roman Empire.


As a result of this experience, they have become thoroughly depoliticized. They do not see what positive influence the government can have on their lives: They believe that they have to fend for themselves.

It's me, or you guys really think that it's bad?


Yes, they will gladly accept social services if offered, as they had been under the Soviet government, but they do not expect them.

If you some worthless scum, why the feck you must be provided with any of those services. I pay for my services and think that it's right.


They hardly feel themselves to be citizens of a great state, but confine their loyalties to their immediate families and friends and the locality which they inhabit.

I definately "confine their loyalties to their immediate families and friends and the locality which they inhabit.". And mostly Russia fvck yeah!!! like most of people i know.


What they demand of the authorities is that they maintain order: when asked what is more important to them—"order" or "freedom"—the inhabitants of the province of Voronezh overwhelmingly expressed preference for "order." Indeed, they identify political freedom, i.e., democracy, with anarchy and crime. Which explains why the population at large, except for the well-educated, urban minority, expresses no dismay at the repression of its political rights.

I don't see how my list of "political rights" differs from the list of German citizen for example.



From opinion polls it emerges that they believe democracy everywhere to be a sham, that all governments are run by crooks who use their power to enrich themselves.

Judging from threads on political situation on this board, a don't think we alone :)


In 1991, Russia lost her empire, the last remaining in the world, as all her colonies, previously disguised as "union republics" separated themselves to form sovereign states.

Apart from particular 2 - good riddance


This imperial collapse was a traumatic experience to which most Russians still cannot adjust themselves.

Awaking in different country (literraly) is kinda massive expirience


fantasize about the day when it will reunite with Mother Russia

I fantasize at max about Commonwealth, at min Ukraine stop acting stupid. As most people here do.


These imperial ambitions have received fresh expression from a bill which President Medvedev has submitted in mid-August to parliament. It would revise the existing Law of Defense which authorizes the Russian military to act only in response to foreign aggression. The new law would allow them to act also "to return or prevent aggression against another state" and "to protect citizens of the Russian Federation abroad." It is easy to see how incidents could be provoked under this law that would allow Russian forces to intervene outside their borders.

Do you guys have any problem with short-term memory? I find it controversial for American to write such things.


......... aww fvck it i'm already tired..........

Congrats on 11000 post Ordie :)

[dragonunion]

I know one thing for sure that Russia is far more democratic than most of the Arab nations in Middle East as Saudi Arabia or Qatar. Russia maybe is in the same level with Egypt, which have a long-live President who is seen as a modern Pharaon of Egypt. But what have I heard about US's concerns for freedoom and human rights in those nations? Well, almost nothing. Maybe it is too much for the great freedoom and human right-loving USA to say ****s about their great friends, the great kings of the oil land.

[Switek]

DELETE.... problem with website access

[Holycrusader]

I know one thing for sure that Russia is far more democratic than most of the Arab nations in Middle East as Saudi Arabia or Qatar. Russia maybe is in the same level with Egypt, which have a long-live President who is seen as a modern Pharaon of Egypt. But what have I heard about US's concerns for freedoom and human rights in those nations? Well, almost nothing. Maybe it is too much for the great freedoom and human right-loving USA to say ****s about their great friends, the great kings of the oil land.

Russia is not on Egypt level. Read this part from Wikipedia (I know bad source but in this case very true)

In Egypt, a State of Emergency has been imposed almost continuously since 1967 Due to the assassination of President Anwar el-Sadat in 1981, martial law was declared. Egypt has been under martial law ever since - the Parliament has renewed the emergency laws every three years since they were imposed. The legislation was last extended in 2003 and was due to expire at the end of May 2006; plans were in place to replace them with new anti-terrorism laws, but after the Dahab bombings in April, martial law was renewed for another two years. [2][3] In May 2008 there was a further extension to June 2010. [4]


Martial law allows the government to detain anyone deemed to be threatening state security for renewable 45-day periods without court orders and also give military courts the power to try civilians.

Public demonstrations are banned under the legislation.

[Switek]

DELETE.... problem with website access

[widi243]

I love it when Euro-Atlantic types tell Slavs or Eastern Europeans about themselves.Or one country pressing its values onto another is silly.
You cannot look at all of the world from the view of the West.

The hatred of all things Russian is as strong as it ever was.
Lets just worry about no cornoring Russia and do not ever underestimate her.
The times that are the most bleek for humans especially Slavs is when we excel the most.Let Russia be Russia bad or good.Why can't they stop poking the bear with a stick over and over .I believe the globalists want a war
no matter what.

I don't know what you are talking about. It's work for Poland and it will works for Russia they both are slavic countries.

[Switek]

And where profits are privatised and losses are transferred to the taxpayer!

I refereed to the Pareto's post who asked:
themselves What does it mean been Europian anyway?? I dont see much common characteristics beetwen Greeks and Norwegians for example! In this sense many EE nations have been applied for such "order", already.

[shadowsrider]

Opinion polls indicate that most Russians regret the passing of the Soviet Union and feel nostalgia for Stalin.

I am really waiting for Putin's visit in Poland, this is gonna be "fun"

[dragonunion]

Russia is not on Egypt level. Read this part from Wikipedia (I know bad source but in this case very true)

In Egypt, a State of Emergency has been imposed almost continuously since 1967 Due to the assassination of President Anwar el-Sadat in 1981, martial law was declared. Egypt has been under martial law ever since - the Parliament has renewed the emergency laws every three years since they were imposed. The legislation was last extended in 2003 and was due to expire at the end of May 2006; plans were in place to replace them with new anti-terrorism laws, but after the Dahab bombings in April, martial law was renewed for another two years. [2][3] In May 2008 there was a further extension to June 2010. [4]


Martial law allows the government to detain anyone deemed to be threatening state security for renewable 45-day periods without court orders and also give military courts the power to try civilians.

Public demonstrations are banned under the legislation.
You are right! My bad! Egypt is worse than Russia. A president for 28 years, if I am not wrong. And from what I know, he is thinking about letting his son become the new President. Where are the concerns of US and Western governments for these actions against democracy? :cantbeli:

[ting]

Interesting article. Russia 1000? I would perhaps say 600. Any Russian thoughts on this?

I think Biden was more or less correct in the things he said. I think the fact that he said it and not Obama was a good idea. I think it's a good way to send a message to the top of Russia's leadership that the US is willing to act like Russia is a great power, but that the US wants something in return for keeping up appearances.

I don't see Russia turning into a north Korea in order to replace their cold war military machine. That would mean massive hardship for the Russians, and I don't think they are willing to suffer in order to "keep up appearances".

IIRC most of the gear produced by the Soviet union is past their "use before date" around 2020. Is this more or less correct?

It will be interesting to see what kind of military will remain at this time.

20 years is a long time, but for the Russians the loss of the "empire", is I guess not long enough. However they will have to face up to the new situation sooner rather than later or the world will pass them by.

I think Medvedev understands what's going on, and is moving to adjust his people. As for Putin, I am unsure. Both talk tough in their anti-NATO rhetoric, which I think is due to a need to placate some groups in the government. However I don't think they believe what they are saying since AFAIK their best units are focused in the east.

As for internal economic reform, I think the most important thing is to have a court system which protects property and businesses from the semi mafioso oligarchs. IMHO they are the biggest threat to Russia's economic development. IIRC the court system was one of the biggest priorities for Medvedev when he came to power.

Do any of you Russians see any progress in this area?

I think the "west" should try to contain Russia, while it adjusts to the new situation. It must allow for Russia to keep up appearances, while simultaneously protecting it's neighbours from violent interference. It's a difficult balancing act, but it is doable.

[lauris71]

What I fail to understand is why some people (seem to) think, that genuinely democratic Russia with multiple strong political parties, more independent media, string NGO-s, strong judiciary etc. would be more friendly to Western interests. If anything, I'd expect Russia to become more assertive, because (a) it develops stronger and broader economy and (b) it would become much more nationalistic (nationalism is truly cheap way to win electorate - look no further than Eastern Europe for examples).
Russian and European interests are in conflict not because Russia is some imperialist tyranny but because the are in different geopolitical positions. And I fail to see, why multi-party Russia (as long as it is strong and stable state) should be more eager to make compromises, than current one-and-an-half party state. Actually the contrary - I'd expect it to be much more eager to use military force to defend it's interestes - as the leaders have more to listen their own people and less some "international opinion".

[cbiwv]

Biden should just keep his big mouth shut instead of pissing people off.

[Switek]

What I fail to understand is why some people (seem to) think, that genuinely democratic Russia with multiple strong political parties, more independent media, string NGO-s, strong judiciary etc. would be more friendly to Western interests. If anything, I'd expect Russia to become more assertive, because (a) it develops stronger and broader economy and (b) it would become much more nationalistic (nationalism is truly cheap way to win electorate - look no further than Eastern Europe for examples).
Russian and European interests are in conflict not because Russia is some imperialist tyranny but because the are in different geopolitical positions. And I fail to see, why multi-party Russia (as long as it is strong and stable state) should be more eager to make compromises, than current one-and-an-half party state. Actually the contrary - I'd expect it to be much more eager to use military force to defend it's interestes - as the leaders have more to listen their own people and less some "international opinion".

???

What are those Western interests?

---------

Multi party political system usually reflects basic internal problems within a state and allows to solve it on parliamentary, legislative system. The other value is that this system is better as for spending public money and control over it - there is always who watches at politicians hands. It's not that corruption does not happen in the democratic countries but the level of it is significantly lower.

[lauris71]

???

What are those Western interests?

---------

Multi party political system usually reflects basic internal problems within a state and allows to solve it on parliamentary, legislative system. The other value is that this system is better as for spending public money and control over it - there is always who watches at politicians hands. It's not that corruption does not happen in the democratic countries but the level of it is significantly lower.
Western interests like accepting NATO enlargement to Ukraine/Georgia, serious sanctions against Iran etc. etc.
I 100% agree, that strong multi-party system, independent judiciary, free media etc. helps to overall internal economic and social development. But many people seem to suggest, that western-style democracy in Russia would avoid foreign-policy disputes, like 5-day war, gas disputes with Ukraine, opposition to ABM and so on.

[Breerman]

Sorry but a more accurate headline would be: "Russia: Inferiority Complex and Nukes"


But many people seem to suggest, that western-style democracy in Russia would avoid foreign-policy disputes, like 5-day war, gas disputes with Ukraine, opposition to ABM and so on.
Some but democracy with strong institutions etc. would more importantly change how conflicts are resolved.

[Switek]

Western interests like accepting NATO enlargement to Ukraine/Georgia, serious sanctions against Iran etc. etc.

Don't get it. The Are Ukraine and Georgia themselves who define their political will to enter NATO. Anyway most NATO members are against them... so there's no "western" interest as a notion describing existing phenomena

[QUOTE=lauris71;4365973]I 100% agree, that strong multi-party system, independent judiciary, free media etc. helps to overall internal economic and social development. But many people seem to suggest, that western-style democracy in Russia would avoid foreign-policy disputes, like 5-day war, gas disputes with Ukraine, opposition to ABM and so on.

Usually western style democracies try to solve problems in possible blood less and cost less way...

Can you imagine That EU commission ane European Parliament are one big battlefield where are contemporary clashes of different national, social and corporation interests? Conflicts which used to be solved in Europe in real wars were replaced by diplomatic straggles where overall principle is compromise... what is defined as win-win effect. ...

[asch]

Sorry but a more accurate headline would be: "Russia: Inferiority Complex and Nukes"
trollsky hungry?

[Russianlynxy]

I am really sick of all these ridiculous, biased, unfounded Russia articles that are non topic-specific but simply make generalizations about Russia and apocalyptic forecasts. They talk about nothing really and all the "facts" can be easily disproven by someone who has at least a little background about the country.

what i dislike more is the Russophobic masturbation that goes around them after they are posted.
Really worries me about the intelligence and maturity of some people on this forum.

An article by one idiot (Biden) has really gone to far, and touched the hearts and minds who are clearly bothered by Russia's existence as a country - the rest such as this are just follow-up articles.

[Ordie]

I am really sick of all these ridiculous, biased, unfounded Russia articles that are non topic-specific but simply make generalizations about Russia and apocalyptic forecasts. They talk about nothing really and all the "facts" can be easily disproven by someone who has at least a little background about the country.

what i dislike more is the Russophobic masturbation that goes around them after they are posted.
Really worries me about the intelligence and maturity of some people on this forum.

An article by one idiot (Biden) has really gone to far, and touched the hearts and minds who are clearly bothered by Russia's existence as a country - the rest such as this are just follow-up articles.

How would you define and view Russia?

[Vityaz]

In 1991, Russia lost her empire, the last remaining in the world, as all her colonies, previously disguised as "union republics" separated themselves to form sovereign states. This imperial collapse was a traumatic experience to which most Russians still cannot adjust themselves.I think the mark of the perfect empire is when it has consolidated its conquered territories so well and so long that they're no longer considered colonial but simply an integral part of the nation-state. I would say Russia is one of the most successful empires in history because most people (including this WSJ amateur nation psycho-analyst/op-ed guy) no longer regard her as such. It's extremely odd that one would call 1991 the end of Russia's empire when it really was just a radical change in government and a marginal loss of territory. If historians operated like that, one could say the Roman Empire fell dozens and dozens of times.

I do agree with one point. Russia's modern identity as a state is inescapably imperial. So any sane person should expect her to act accordingly.

edit - I'd also hardly call the SSRs "colonies" in the traditional sense because (with the exception of the poorer Central Asian republics) a large portion of Soviet raw materials came from Russia while most of the SSRs were industrialized.

[vi]

The day American media starts to feature positive news about Russia will be the day that Russia will be politically marginalized and run by a puppet :lol:

Just shows the frustration of the anglosaxons at Russia actually doing things in her own interest

[MZKT]

By this definition Scotland would be a colony of UK.

Nor Russia nor SU ever separated between metropoly and colonies, this exact factor is the difference between colonialism and federalism. The term "empire" would be also not applicable in this case, at least not post-1922.

However the article has a point: there is a significant difference between russian aspirations and russian capabilities, but even worse there is an even larger difference between the claimed political targets and the real politics.

[vi]

What I fail to understand is why some people (seem to) think, that genuinely democratic Russia with multiple strong political parties, more independent media, string NGO-s, strong judiciary etc. would be more friendly to Western interests. If anything, I'd expect Russia to become more assertive, because (a) it develops stronger and broader economy and (b) it would become much more nationalistic (nationalism is truly cheap way to win electorate - look no further than Eastern Europe for examples).
Russian and European interests are in conflict not because Russia is some imperialist tyranny but because the are in different geopolitical positions. And I fail to see, why multi-party Russia (as long as it is strong and stable state) should be more eager to make compromises, than current one-and-an-half party state. Actually the contrary - I'd expect it to be much more eager to use military force to defend it's interestes - as the leaders have more to listen their own people and less some "international opinion".
That is a very very good point, thank you. I also believe that a growing democratic and civil society in Russia (this process is well under way and cannot be reversed) will in fact make Russia defend its own interests even more boldly. We do not share many common interests with the Americans and so there is plenty of room for conflict. No democratic government of a truly independent power such as Russia would ever willingly concede on vital interests. Compromise is very much possible in some areas, but don't forget this means a step forward from both sides

Russia is growing closer to the major continental powers of Europe such as Germany and France. This relationship is driven purely by mutual economic gain. Perhaps Britain will also join this process if it stops being America's lapdog

[INAT]

The day American media starts to feature positive news about Russia will be the day that Russia will be politically marginalized and run by a puppet :lol:

Just shows the frustration of the anglosaxons at Russia actually doing things in her own interest



Agree,here is an example.

This is from a news source in Serbia that is financed by Western money (B92)

The part I want you to pay attention to is the headline ,the rest is bs.

“U.S. satisfied with situation in Serbia”
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?mm=8&dd=8&yyyy=2009


Just to prove your point.

[Smok]

The day American media starts to feature positive news about Russia will be the day that Russia will be politically marginalized and run by a puppet :lol:

Just shows the frustration of the anglosaxons at Russia actually doing things in her own interest

Problem is, that Russia remained in 30's - times of autocracy, politics of aimed gun etc. I remember that when discussion about antimisille shield in Poland begun some russian official said "we will aim our nukes at Poland". People in Poland were shocked, because that way of solving problems is something unbelivable in EU. I remember that people were talking "Russians are back in stone age".
Also big problem for Russia is obsolete and corrupted social and economical system. Poland had similar problem in 90's but we managed to make reforms (very painfull) which overturned our country and now we are going forward. Russia made just small changes and digged at it's position but it is pointless. World will not wait for Russia. World is going ahead!
Just compare
Changing of GDP (first half of 2009)
Poland +1,5%
Russia -10%
GDP (PPP) per capita (2008)
Russia $16000
Poland $17500
GDP (PPP) per capita (end of 2009 est.)
Russia $14500
Poland $18400
Inflation (2007)
Russia - 11,9%
Poland - 3%
Numbers don't lie. Face facts russian friends. You are sailing on Titanic!

[vi]

Is that supposed to be a massive difference between Poland and Russia?

p.s. what did you think Russia was going to do if a missile shield would be built in Poland? Are you saying Poles are so dumb that they cannot even predict the obvious?

[asch]

Problem is, that Russia remained in 30's - times of autocracy, politics of aimed gun etc. I remember that when discussion about antimisille shield in Poland begun some russian official said "we will aim our nukes at Poland". People in Poland were shocked, because that way of solving problems is something unbelivable in EU. I remember that people were talking "Russians are back in stone age".
Also big problem for Russia is obsolete and corrupted social and economical system. Poland had similar problem in 90's but we managed to make reforms (very painfull) which overturned our country and now we are going forward. Russia made just small changes and digged at it's position but it is pointless. World will not wait for Russia. World is going ahead!
Just compare
Changing of GDP (first half of 2009)
Poland +1,5%
Russia -10%
GDP (PPP) per capita (2008)
Russia $16000
Poland $17500
GDP (PPP) per capita (end of 2009 est.)
Russia $14500
Poland $18400
Inflation (2007)
Russia - 11,9%
Poland - 3%
Numbers don't lie. Face facts russian friends. You are sailing on Titanic!
tiny Poland is much more easy to manage than huge Russia. we have much much more complex problems due to the size alone.

btw, as far, sailing is pretty comfortable, thanks.

[zg18]

Also big problem for Russia is obsolete and corrupted social and economical system. Poland had similar problem in 90's but we managed to make reforms (very painfull) which overturned our country and now we are going forward. Russia made just small changes and digged at it's position but it is pointless. World will not wait for Russia. World is going ahead!

Small changes? , my family friend worked in USSR and now works in Russia for one Croatian firm, he has Russia in little finger , very vast experience ,if some country did change a lot in the last 25 years, than Russia is one of the candidates, he thinks Russia is more capitalistic than Europe now.

[Mastermind]

I read as far as "Joe Biden says..."...to hell with that idiot. He was a moron in the Senate and he is a lunatic and so half witted moron at that. As VP he probably was one of the worst choices for ever...Obambi probably selected him because, by comparison, he makes a dirt bag loon look smart.

I know very little of what Russia really has become...what it means to be Russian. I have known and worked with a few Russians who have come to the USA and all of them, I deeply respected. I respected them for their work ethic, their honesty (brutal at times...but always true), their abject courage under fire and their keen intelligence...a practical intelligent that gave me pause to listen to every time and I learned by experience put grave weight on when making important decisions.

Knowing these few Russians, all who grew up under the Soviet government, I have made some dramatic personal conclusions about Russians in general...yes, stereotyping...ugh...(so if you don't like that, go fk yoursefl).

Russia will always be, and has always been, a force to contend with. Why...answer is simple....It is completely over run with Russians!

[Breerman]

Damn, 12% inflation AND GDP -10%

[Sashko]

I read as far as "Joe Biden says..."...to hell with that idiot. He was a moron in the Senate and he is a lunatic and so half witted moron at that. As VP he probably was one of the worst choices for ever...Obambi probably selected him because, by comparison, he makes a dirt bag loon look smart.

I know very little of what Russia really has become...what it means to be Russian. I have known and worked with a few Russians who have come to the USA and all of them, I deeply respected. I respected them for their work ethic, their honesty (brutal at times...but always true), their abject courage under fire and their keen intelligence...a practical intelligent that gave me pause to listen to every time and I learned by experience put grave weight on when making important decisions.

Knowing these few Russians, all who grew up under the Soviet government, I have made some dramatic personal conclusions about Russians in general...yes, stereotyping...ugh...(so if you don't like that, go fk yoursefl).

Russia will always be, and has always been, a force to contend with. Why...answer is simple....It is completely over run with Russians!

Very good post.

[zg18]

Damn, 12% inflation AND GDP -10%

So? It's better to let recession clean the system.

[Andarius-Militarius]

Actually inflation is still going up, even with the recession. Which is frighteningly unique.

[gosciu555]

It's a long tradition here. Only 300% Russians have right to write critical opinions about Russia... Even if some facts are true than worse to the facts.... ;)


This guy was part of Team B, meaning he's a typical bulls*&er and merchant of nonsense and manipulation. Zbig is the godfather of the Obama administration which means the new anglo-american policy is going to be anti-russia, anti-china. He pretty much spills the beans here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZqrN3tN68E&feature=video_response

People in Poland should be jumping out of their seats to ensure that there is no confrontation between NATO and Russia, especially along the lines of this "missle crisies."

[gosciu555]

I read as far as "Joe Biden says..."...to hell with that idiot. He was a moron in the Senate and he is a lunatic and so half witted moron at that. As VP he probably was one of the worst choices for ever...Obambi probably selected him because, by comparison, he makes a dirt bag loon look smart.

I know very little of what Russia really has become...what it means to be Russian. I have known and worked with a few Russians who have come to the USA and all of them, I deeply respected. I respected them for their work ethic, their honesty (brutal at times...but always true), their abject courage under fire and their keen intelligence...a practical intelligent that gave me pause to listen to every time and I learned by experience put grave weight on when making important decisions.

Knowing these few Russians, all who grew up under the Soviet government, I have made some dramatic personal conclusions about Russians in general...yes, stereotyping...ugh...(so if you don't like that, go fk yoursefl).

Russia will always be, and has always been, a force to contend with. Why...answer is simple....It is completely over run with Russians!


When have you worked with Russians especially under fire?

[cbiwv]

I read as far as "Joe Biden says..."...to hell with that idiot. He was a moron in the Senate and he is a lunatic and so half witted moron at that. As VP he probably was one of the worst choices for ever...Obambi probably selected him because, by comparison, he makes a dirt bag loon look smart.

I know very little of what Russia really has become...what it means to be Russian. I have known and worked with a few Russians who have come to the USA and all of them, I deeply respected. I respected them for their work ethic, their honesty (brutal at times...but always true), their abject courage under fire and their keen intelligence...a practical intelligent that gave me pause to listen to every time and I learned by experience put grave weight on when making important decisions.

Knowing these few Russians, all who grew up under the Soviet government, I have made some dramatic personal conclusions about Russians in general...yes, stereotyping...ugh...(so if you don't like that, go fk yoursefl).

Russia will always be, and has always been, a force to contend with. Why...answer is simple....It is completely over run with Russians!

Traits worthy of admiration.

[Russianlynxy]

He pretty much spills the beans here


And they wonder where all the Obamamania went when he visited Moscow rofl

[Hast2]

Problem is, that Russia remained in 30's - times of autocracy, politics of aimed gun etc. I remember that when discussion about antimisille shield in Poland begun some russian official said "we will aim our nukes at Poland". People in Poland were shocked

Some Russian official said : "In case of major hostilities antimissile shield installations could become a nuclear strike target." Not (c), but the whole meaning is completely different, isn't it? I guess people in Poland should be more shocked and concerned about being brainwashed.

[Lokos]

I see pride. I see power. I see a bad ass motha', who don't take no crap from nobody!

This thread is nonsense.

L.

[Ordie]

I see pride. I see power. I see a bad ass motha', who don't take no crap from nobody!

This thread is nonsense.

L.

Not really.

I learned a lot.

I see an identity crisis pattern with countries that strattle between Asia and Europe.

More specifically countries like Turkey, Ukraine, The Caucasus, Israel, Lebanon etc...

Sometime I think Russia is a prisoner of its own history in regards to East / West paradigmns

Russia had a close symbyotic relations with the Eastern Romans (Byzantines) who they themselves shuted the Roman Church and Western Europe.

Russia was once a vassal state of the Mongols of the East.

But it had periods of Western enlightenment with Peter the Great and Cathernie.

And during the Cold War it was closed from the West.

So there's this back and forth

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

It's a long tradition here. Only 300% Russians have right to write critical opinions about Russia... Even if some facts are true than worse to the facts.... ;)

As a pole you should not write such things - i mean just look at your countrymen....rofl

[Smok]

Small changes? , my family friend worked in USSR and now works in Russia for one Croatian firm, he has Russia in little finger , very vast experience ,if some country did change a lot in the last 25 years, than Russia is one of the candidates, he thinks Russia is more capitalistic than Europe now.

Opening McDonald and Rolls-Royce dealer isn't a big change. We are talking about fundamental changes and clearing the system. Russia isn't capitalistic. Russia is oligarchic. It is country sinking in alcohol, with small amount of horrible rich individuals and big amount of poor people living in corrupted and unstable country. It is the country where journalists are murdering on streets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya), where human's law almost don't exist etc.
Russia today is something like Poland in 1990, but 10 times more extreme.



Some Russian official said : "In case of major hostilities antimissile shield installations could become a nuclear strike target." Not (c), but the whole meaning is completely different, isn't it? I guess people in Poland should be more shocked and concerned about being brainwashed.

You still can't understand. In civilised Europe we don't use that kind of rethoric since many years! We don't threat other coutries with nukes, tanks, cutting off gas etc. :bash:

[asch]

Opening McDonald and Rolls-Royce dealer isn't a big change. We are talking about fundamental changes and clearing the system. Russia isn't capitalistic. Russia is oligarchic. It is country sinking in alcohol, with small amount of horrible rich individuals and big amount of poor people living in corrupted and unstable country. It is the country where journalists are murdering on streets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya), where human's law almost don't exist etc.
Russia today is something like Poland in 1990, but 10 times more extreme
yea, folks who don't live here usually a great experts on Russia issue.
:cantbeli:

[shadowsrider]

tiny Poland is much more easy to manage than huge Russia. we have much much more complex problems due to the size alone.

btw, as far, sailing is pretty comfortable, thanks.

I understand that looking at the map you compare Poland and Russia and that is why you call it tiny, while Poland is a country with territory and population a bit smaller than Spain and I do not know anyone who calls Spain a small country.

I do not know why you show those numbers (it's to Smok)? Does it satisfy you that there is crisis in Russia? Richer Russians are good for everyone. Oil economy crisis as it was predicted by some.

[asch]

well, so far crisis is not much of what it was in the beginning of 2009. i can honestly say that i almost don't feel crisis now. in my book this means that things become better, no?

[dragonunion]

You still can't understand. In civilised Europe we don't use that kind of rethoric since many years! We don't threat other coutries with nukes, tanks, cutting off gas etc. :bash:
Are you sure? If everything can solve just by talk, so what the heck are US and EU's threats of attacks and isolate Iran? Nuclear threat of Iran, maybe? But if there is no clear evidence, so I will say STFO. And call your force In Iraq and Afghan back home. Why don't you just try to talk with Taliban and make them understand that their actions are bad.

Sometimes to solve something, we need to use force. In relation to the gas war, one easy rule here: no money, no gas.

[shadowsrider]

Are you sure? If everything can solve just by talk, so what the heck are US and EU's threats of attacks and isolate Iran? Nuclear threat of Iran, maybe? But if there is no clear evidence, so I will say STFO. And call your force In Iraq and Afghan back home. Why don't you just try to talk with Taliban and make them understand that their actions are bad.

Sometimes to solve something, we need to use force. In relation to the gas war, one easy rule here: no money, no gas.

US != EU , this is not big "united West", I do not remember EU officials threatening anyone with force.

[dragonunion]

EU's threat is the isolation of Iran. And Europe forces use in Iraq and Afghan still fall in your comment about civilised Europe.

[Mango Madness]

US != EU , this is not big "united West"

Get real, on the big issues EU and the US are united in their foreign policy (eg Georgia, Iran, Kosovo), the reason people refer to the US/EU as "the west" so often is because they almost always take the same stance on issues.

[Smok]

Are you sure? If everything can solve just by talk, so what the heck are US and EU's threats of attacks and isolate Iran? Nuclear threat of Iran, maybe? But if there is no clear evidence, so I will say STFO.

EU wants to attack Iran?? USA and UE aren't the same thing.



And call your force In Iraq and Afghan back home. Why don't you just try to talk with Taliban and make them understand that their actions are bad.


Our forces are not in Iraq any longer, and in Afghanistan we are with official request of democratically elected Afghani government.



Sometimes to solve something, we need to use force. In relation to the gas war, one easy rule here: no money, no gas.

But we paid you always. Batka Lukaschenko and Ukraine didn't pay so you cut off our (paid) gas and refuses to pay any damages!

[shadowsrider]

EU's threat is the isolation of Iran. And Europe forces use in Iraq and Afghan still fall in your comment about civilised Europe.

This is NATO detachment and it was individual decision of each country to send troops there. Also Afghanistan was not threatened simply Talibans were attacked (but comeon who discusses with them).
Iraq also divided the Europe, remember how it was called by Rumsfeld : there is Old Europe and New Europe (New Europe in his understanding was good).
EU itself very, very rarely uses force in the rhetorics.

[Shuimo]

Russia is and will always be a great force to be reckoned with, merely given its size and military might!

I'd rather see Russia and China in a similar boat with similar aspirations!

Both of them crave to clench back their glory to the center stage of the world, albeit both facing enormously daunting domestic problems!

In my view, Russia must learn from China in governing a mega-sized landmass if it is to competently compete with other world powers!

China also needs Russia a great deal if it is to rise peacefully in the world!

No wonder you would find the two echoing and supporting each other on international issues such as terrorism + separatism fighting!

[shadowsrider]

In my view, Russia must learn from China in governing a mega-sized landmass if it is to competently compete with other world powers!

China also needs Russia a great deal if it is to rise peacefully in the world!


Learn? I think Russia has far more historical experience in this than China.

[Shuimo]

America, in particular, has a lot in common with Russia. The current era sees us struggling against the same general group of antagonists. We both have an interest in containing China. We are both on good terms with a rising Great Power (India). We don't share any land borders or have any real historical socio-ethnic vendettas.
Indeed, Russia could make much better allies than some of our current "friends".


Don't you think China and Russia can also have great common interests in containg the influence of the US?

[Shuimo]

Learn? I think Russia has far more historical experience in this than China.

Then how chould you explain the collapse of the USSR?:bash:

[shadowsrider]

Then how chould you explain the collase of the USSR?:bash:

Lech Walesa destoroyed it with help of Virgin Mary and a group of angry people in Berlin who damaged some wall (hooligans). Virgin Mary and the Wall collapse did it.
So I suggest double guards at the Chinese Wall because if it will fall China wil fall too.
:):):)

[Shuimo]

Lech Walesa destoroyed it with help of Virgin Mary and a group of angry people in Berlin who damaged some wall (hooligans). Virgin Mary and the Wall collapse did it.
So I suggest double guards at the Chinese Wall because if it will fall China wil fall too.
:):):)

No, the collapse of the USSR has its profound-most root causes within the country itslef, not influences from outside!:)

Hmmm, what Chinese wall do you mean? The Great Wall?

[shadowsrider]

Simply the topic is so complex that I could only answer with joke, there are lots of books about it. So Russia should learn from China how to succesfully preserve the communism and keep occupied nations in the empire? :)
I think little bit too late but still it is a huge country with several hundreds years of tradition in colonizing vast, empty spaces.

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

This guy was part of Team B, meaning he's a typical bulls*&er and merchant of nonsense and manipulation. Zbig is the godfather of the Obama administration which means the new anglo-american policy is going to be anti-russia, anti-china. He pretty much spills the beans here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZqrN3tN68E&feature=video_response

People in Poland should be jumping out of their seats to ensure that there is no confrontation between NATO and Russia, especially along the lines of this "missle crisies."


No wonder US will go down as Obamas (and Bush's) advisor is a crazy pole.

[Shuimo]

Simply the topic is so complex that I could only answer with joke, there are lots of books about it. So Russia should learn from China how to succesfully preserve the communism and keep occupied nations in the empire? :)
I think little bit too late but still it is a huge country with several hundreds years of tradition in colonizing vast, empty spaces.

Well, the topic can be both extremely complex and simple!
You don't have to read that much to know the gist of the key issues!

BTW, China today is only a communist country in name only! Anyone with a morsel of common sense in politics wud tell you that!

Colonizing? I guess the whole human race is colonizing the planet called EARTH! Very intense rat race here!

[shadowsrider]

No wonder US will go down as Obamas (and Bush's) advisor is a crazy pole.

Everywhere I see your post you write something about Poland (and always an insult) Are you obsessed or something?

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

US != EU , this is not big "united West", I do not remember EU officials threatening anyone with force.

Who will take them serious?

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

Everywhere I see your post you write something about Poland (and always an insult) Are you obsessed or something?
Yes i am obsessed with poland from now on like poles are obsessed with russia as it seems.:)
I find it funny how poles are tryin to teach russians in every russian thread something while they are living on EU's money and poland is in deep sh!t.

[Shuimo]

Yes i am obsessed with poland from now on like poles are obsessed with russia as it seems.:)
I find it funny how poles are tryin to teach russians in every russian thread something while they are living on EU's money and poland is in deep sh!t.

You need to remember the Poland has such a love-hatred relations with Russia!

[dies irae]

poland is in deep sh!t.
Really...?

Especially ours economy will grow though crisis...

Poland is among the countries that have coped best with the global crisis. This year, Poland's neighbors face a biting recession that may see their GDP shrinking 6 or 7 percent, or even more, as is the case in Ukraine. Meanwhile, Poland's GDP is still growing. According to the World Bank, the Polish economy will grow 0.5 percent this year and 0.9 and 3.5 percent in 2010 and 2011 respectively. It is clear to the World Bank that Poland is highly likely to fend off the general recession and, consequently, become a notable example of economic success.http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/20668

[dragonunion]

This is NATO detachment and it was individual decision of each country to send troops there.
EU itself very, very rarely uses force in the rhetorics.
Yes, Nato detachment, but many man still coming from EU nations. You can't say that: Look, it is Nato, it has nothing to do with Europe. If you say like that, why can you agree with some Russian idea that the crimes and problems of SU is not the problem with Russia. Idea is similar, EU is Nato but not completely Nato, and Russia is SU but not completely SU.

[hastati]

Yes i am obsessed with poland from now on like poles are obsessed with russia as it seems.:)
I find it funny how poles are tryin to teach russians in every russian thread something while they are living on EU's money and poland is in deep sh!t.

Keep dreaming boy - EU donation per year are only about 1% of Polish yearly GDP.

[vi]

Poland strong!!!11111

[Switek]

Could any moderator stop this senseless anti Polish whining because is absolutelly irrelevant to this topic?

Is there any doctor, as well?

[widi243]

Yes i am obsessed with poland from now on like poles are obsessed with russia as it seems.:)
I find it funny how poles are tryin to teach russians in every russian thread something while they are living on EU's money and poland is in deep sh!t.

you are rather pathetic with your insults :bash:

[intelligenzija]

http://www.spiegel.de/flash/0,5532,14940,00.html 2005 data but still gives you an idea

[KoTeMoRe]

I love it when Euro-Atlantic types tell Slavs or Eastern Europeans about themselves.Or one country pressing its values onto another is silly.
You cannot look at all of the world from the view of the West.

The hatred of all things Russian is as strong as it ever was.
Lets just worry about no cornoring Russia and do not ever underestimate her.
The times that are the most bleek for humans especially Slavs is when we excel the most.Let Russia be Russia bad or good.Why can't they stop poking the bear with a stick over and over .I believe the globalists want a war
no matter what.

And unfortunately they're right most of the time (since they're pressing their values)...however we get to live, they get to pray. And that's unvaluable.

[hastati]

I don't know what was your point but this statistc only confirm my last post.

[shadowsrider]

Julik I created a thread for you :)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163924

[KoTeMoRe]

His point? Watch out where you step...sometimes being too close to the "facts sheet" is missing the picture.

[Sashko]

you are rather pathetic with your insults :bash:



And I'm still waiting for that list of countries, besides Germany, that apologized for their wrongs during WW2... It was "almost everyone" according to you, and I am dying to know who exactly. :roll:

[Hast2]

You still can't understand. In civilised Europe we don't use that kind of rethoric since many years! We don't threat other coutries with nukes, tanks, cutting off gas etc. :bash:
"Europe" or not "Europe" absolutely doesn't matter here. Antimissile shield could be anywhere near Russian borders. What matters is the fact : Antimissile shield(aka Poland, so far)WILL be nuked in case of war and "some Russian official" just pointed it out. And another fact as well : it will be Poland's fault.

Russia never threatened to cut off gas, hysterical "western" press calls Russian gas "a weapon" and " a threat" but not Russia.

You seriously need some reality check.

[Derbedeu]

And I'm still waiting for that list of countries, besides Germany, that apologized for their wrongs during WW2... It was "almost everyone" according to you, and I am dying to know who exactly. :roll:

The US for one (interment of Japanese), Japan for another, various countries have apologized for their role in the Holocaust, etc. Out of the big three, Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union (i.e. Russia), only the latter has really failed at apologizing for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact or 40+ years of imposing communism on unwilling states. I don't think Russia has apologized for Hungary in '56 or Czechoslovakia in '68, though to be honest I'm not 100% sure on that.

[ting]

"Europe" or not "Europe" absolutely doesn't matter here. Antimissile shield could be anywhere near Russian borders. What matters is the fact : Antimissile shield(aka Poland, so far)WILL be nuked in case of war and "some Russian official" just pointed it out. And another fact as well : it will be Poland's fault.

Russia never threatened to cut off gas, hysterical "western" press calls Russian gas "a weapon" and " a threat" but not Russia.

You seriously need some reality check.
I'm not usually that direct, however the highlighted elememts of your post illustrates my point.

Your an idiot.:cantbeli:
Where do you think this wonderfull fall out from nuking the missile silos will go?
http://maps.howstuffworks.com/world-prevailing-winds-map.htm


So I nuke you and it's your fault? How old are you?

[Russianlynxy]

Not really.

I learned a lot.

I see an identity crisis pattern with countries that strattle between Asia and Europe.

More specifically countries like Turkey, Ukraine, The Caucasus, Israel, Lebanon etc...

Sometime I think Russia is a prisoner of its own history in regards to East / West paradigmns

Russia had a close symbyotic relations with the Eastern Romans (Byzantines) who they themselves shuted the Roman Church and Western Europe.

Russia was once a vassal state of the Mongols of the East.

But it had periods of Western enlightenment with Peter the Great and Cathernie.

And during the Cold War it was closed from the West.

So there's this back and forth

I See. However it's not really what the article is about. Stuff like this is usually written with malicious intentions and poor forecasting. It is making too many unconnected generalizations, IMO.

[Sashko]

The US for one (interment of Japanese), Japan for another, various countries have apologized for their role in the Holocaust, etc. Out of the big three, Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union (i.e. Russia), only the latter has really failed at apologizing for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact or 40+ years of imposing communism on unwilling states. I don't think Russia has apologized for Hungary in '56 or Czechoslovakia in '68, though to be honest I'm not 100% sure on that.

1) I was talking about WW2

2) nice of you to put SU on the same side as people who burned other people in ovens and chopped heads off with katanas for fun...:roll:

3) I was more thinking along the lines of US apologizing to citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, rather than to a marginal (by WW2 terms) segment of its own population. Or Brits apologizing for Dresden... Of course, all those events are portrayed as necessary acts of great heroism on the side of Allies, while Soviets are made to look like barbarian cattle with guns.

4) Japanese "apology" was an opportunist political move, and it was taken as such by the Chinese.

[zg18]

The US for one (interment of Japanese), Japan for another, various countries have apologized for their role in the Holocaust, etc. Out of the big three, Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union (i.e. Russia), only the latter has really failed at apologizing for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact or 40+ years of imposing communism on unwilling states. I don't think Russia has apologized for Hungary in '56 or Czechoslovakia in '68, though to be honest I'm not 100% sure on that.

Did France and UK ever apologized for Munich agreement ?? One thing follows another Munich agreement >>> Soviet-Nazi pact. France, UK and USSR tried everything to make deal with Hitler in hope that he will turn his divisions eastward or westward , Germans knew the game and outplayed all three of them.

[Hast2]

I'm not usually that direct, however the highlighted elememts of your post illustrates my point.

Your an idiot.:cantbeli:
Where do you think this wonderfull fall out from nuking the missile silos will go?
http://maps.howstuffworks.com/world-prevailing-winds-map.htm


So I nuke you and it's your fault? How old are you?

It doesn't matter where fallout goes, because at war destroying antimissile shield is a matter of surviving, literally.

Nobody forced Poland to install AM shield, only if by "forced" we understand "money". It was Poland's decision, Poland will take the consequences of this decision. Russia asked many times not to install AM shield, by the way and i really don't think Poles are stupid and don't understand all dangers of having such shield in case of major war(in reality this shield- absolutely unnecessary) , as unlikely as it is. So who's fault is it?

As for your insults... Oh, please... I'll try to remember them, and you, after 5 minutes, but i can't guarantee nothing, sorry.

[Hollis]

Did France and UK ever apologized for Munich agreement ?? One thing follows another Munich agreement >>> Soviet-Nazi pact. France, UK and USSR tried everything to make deal with Hitler in hope that he will turn his divisions eastward or westward , Germans knew the game and outplayed all three of them.


It is more than that. Only N. Germany (and Japan in the Pacific) was ready for war, everyone else was unprepared and built down their military after WWII. There was a strong anti-war and isolationist movement going on. By the time the 'Allies" figure it out, it was too late. The only hope was to stall for time, even then it was not going to build up any of those countries military with the current anti-war public sentiments.

Probably the best example of the anti-war movement was in the US, even with the invasion of China and war in Europe, the US still was not able to get the political support needed to build it's military in preparation to going to war. After Pearl Harbor, it still took something like a year and half to equip, train and raise a military to face the threat.

The SU wasn't prepared either. Stalin was busy purging the Red Army (my understanding). The Soviets were able to do some amazing feats, hold the nazis, move their factories to the East and build and equip a very large army all under invasion and partial occupation.

Warning, best not become a Russia VS Poland thread. Smok and Hast, I hope you pay attention.. along with one or two others.

[Mango Madness]

2) nice of you to put su on the same side as people who burned other people in ovens and chopped heads off with katanas for fun...:roll:

Indeed, this revisionist comparison is quite disconnected from reality. Romania actually fought WITH with the Nazi's, providing equipment, oil, more troops than all the other Axis powers combined during Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union and massacred hundreds of thousands of Jews. And they have not come to terms with their shame http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,594036,00.html

The world doesn't equate SU with Nazi Germany as I explained in another post. The Soviet Union on the contrary is considered the hero of WWII by the world outside of Poland and the Baltics. It fought with the allies and made by far the biggest contribution to the defeat of the Nazi's (at least 80% of Nazi's killed). After the cold war ended, it's decisive role, that dwarfed that of the other allies, in crushing the Nazi's is coming to light and being appreciated even more by people in the west.



3) i was more thinking along the lines of us apologizing to citizens of hiroshima and nagasaki, rather than to a marginal (by ww2 terms) segment of its own population. Or brits apologizing for dresden... Of course, all those events are portrayed as necessary acts of great heroism on the side of allies, while soviets are made to look like barbarian cattle with guns.


x 2

[Derbedeu]

Indeed, this revisionist comparison is quite disconnected from reality. Romania actually fought WITH with the Nazi's, providing equipment, oil, more troops than all the other Axis powers combined during Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union and massacred hundreds of thousands of Jews. And they have not come to terms with their shame http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,594036,00.html

Completely true that we haven't done enough in this respect and it is quite shameful as well as sad. However we are making some progress in that direction, and I believe we will make even more progress on the issue in the future. The article makes an interesting point though, regarding this reticence, basically that all communists states tended to downplay the Holocaust, since the Soviets viewed Hitler's main target the communists, and not the Jews:


The Holocaust was taboo in post-war Romania because Jews weren’t remembered in official Soviet history as Hitler's main victims: communists were. In Soviet history books, it was communists across Eastern Europe who helped Russia beat back the Nazis.The Soviet leadership was adamant in not admitting that Jews were the primary target and disproportionate victims of Hitler. I had a Russian friend in my college class who actually got into an argument over this very issue with the professor, since he held the same viewpoint as stated above.


The world doesn't equate SU with Nazi Germany as I explained in another post. The Soviet Union on the contrary is considered the hero of WWII by the world outside of Poland and the Baltics. It fought with the allies and made by far the biggest contribution to the defeat of the Nazi's (at least 80% of Nazi's killed). After the cold war ended, it's decisive role, that dwarfed that of the other allies, in crushing the Nazi's is coming to light and being appreciated even more by people in the west.

I don't equate the two either, nor do others here. That doesn't change the fact that the SU, while not being on par with Nazi Germany, committed many crimes in its own name.

I believe it's easier for many Eastern Europeans to forgive Germany as opposed to Russia, since Germany never imposed communism on them after the war. They also have apologized and can be considered to be today the most upstanding European citizens around, having faced their past and come to terms with their actions, all the while actively engaging with their neighbors and victims to right their wrongs. It is also only natural that injustices from only 20 years ago (i.e. SU) would be remembered more than those that occurred 60 years ago. This is also compounded by Russia's attitude which, sadly, isn't the most forthcoming when it comes to admitting wrongdoings.

[MZKT]

The US for one (interment of Japanese), Japan for another, various countries have apologized for their role in the Holocaust, etc.


Japan actually never apologized, they even still deny their bloody occupation of china.

USA never done any international aplogies, not even for Hiroshima.


Out of the big three, Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union (i.e. Russia), only the latter has really failed at apologizing for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact or 40+ years of imposing communism on unwilling states.

As already said, Japan never aplogized, nor did any weuropean country apart from Germany. Poland never apologized for 1938 not 1919, and USA never apologized for 100+ years of imposing pupper regimes on south american countries. And of course not UK, nor France, nor Spain nor Portugal ever apologized for centuries long colonial oppression.


I don't think Russia has apologized for Hungary in '56 or Czechoslovakia in '68, though to be honest I'm not 100% sure on that.

Indeed. Nor did UK for dozens colonial wars it fought, nor USA for Panama, Greanada, Iraq

[Switek]

I See. However it's not really what the article is about. Stuff like this is usually written with malicious intentions and poor forecasting. It is making too many unconnected generalizations, IMO.

Few pages earlier you was asked by:


How would you define and view Russia?

You haven't answered yet. Anyway I'm curious your reply....

[Ordie]

You haven't answered yet. Anyway I'm curious your reply....

I'm clueless about Russia.

I grew up during the Cold War where the Soviet Union was demonized as a godless state hell bent on taking over the world.

After the cold war, many of my college classmates were former Soviet citizens. Including Russians, Estonians, Moldiovans, Armenians, Kyrghiz, and Ukrainians.

They were the most intelligent, cultured folks that would put any average American student to shame in terms of academics and sincerity. Naturally each one had thier own take on the Soviet government. The Estonian hated the Communist, while the Kyrghiz lamented the fall of the Soviet Union.

I have niether the privilage or opportunity to visit Russia. The Trans-Siberian Railway journey is on my bucket list to do before I die.

I really cannot comment about Russia, because I don't know much about the place. I feel that I'm in Plato's allegory of the cave. Where my reality of Russia is a shadow on a blank wall. Hopefully I'll get out fo this cave and see it for myself.

[Russianlynxy]

You haven't answered yet. Anyway I'm curious your reply....

My views vary depending on what aspect of Russia we are talking about. I do not, however, throw all the eggs in one basket as many authors like to do to prove a point, and to please a target audience at which these kinds of articles are written for.

There are many instances where this article simply doesn't make sense, and there are several posts on these 7 pages that have digested this article from beginning to end and where it falls short. So no point in repeating what has already been said.

All in all it takes facts which are completely unrelated and manages to model what it assumes is contemporary Russia.


I'm clueless about Russia.
Which is why I have no problems with your point of view, I am aware of your curiosity.
It's the author's attitude I have a serious problem with.

[Switek]

I'm clueless about Russia. ...

I grew in the family of Polish Army officer - member of communist party who really believed in communist reality and supported ruled order of Polish People Republic. In fact I was breed in atmosphere where was simple division between good (Warsaw Pact members with leading USSR) and evil (NATO with superevil Germany and imperialistic USA). My father accepted official soviet vision of the history but tried to have broader clue and sed to read different books (officially edited). In my home Germans were responsible for Katyn massacre what I as boy and later teen believed.

I late of 1970's my father as a commander of one tank regiment in Northwest Poland had professional and private relations with soviet commander of assault fighters regiment located few km away... I remember my parents were often invited for different parties and in revenge some of rage were held in our home as well. My father always repeated that there is some in common between Brits and Russians (for us everyone who spoke Russian were Russian - we did not see a difference) - the ride. Everything i USSR was the best, the greatest, the longest... etc.

My father was very good at his job, he completed all possible courses an military academy of general staff in Warsaw and he was to go Moscow General School - "Voroshilovka" . But something happened. One day a little drunk soviet commander visited us in a kind of "dacha" a small house near the lake used for recreation. My father was away... An the commander asked my mother what was the name of my brother and mine... My is very common in EE and Russia but my brother's one not He asked if it was a nobleman name. My mother confirmed. And he asked my mother if she was a nobleman by origin ... my mother was very upset about his curiosity answered (she lied) brazenly - yes!... Few months later happened dangerous accident in my father's regiment barracks - on barracks' dustbin exploded a mortar grenade wounding several soldiers... It was the end of career of my father he was send to one officer school as a commander of one chair... I thank God my father got easier job because I had remembered him before as permanently absent at home...
What interesting during this time, regardles offical propaganda and change of Polish constitution in 1976 what made our ties with SU stronger I always met people who always criticized USSR and communism I really had no clue why, but their stories were interesting... I also remember that first color TV sets and refrigerators were Soviet made.

I do remember official meetings and rallies or commemoratings where Russian also were invited. Always made curious one thing how it was that while Soviet officers had quite modern uniforms simple troops always were wearing still WW2 models... in this case Polish Army seemed to me much more modern.

In my high school one of our classmates was born in Moscow - Dimitr whose father was Ukrainian officer who left his mother, He was adopted by her second husband - Polish officer who studied in Moscow. Dimitr was one of the best mate ever. After graduation of his studies in Moscow he brought original Russian vodka in clear capped bottles. It was Stolichnaya produced by "Moskowskoy Zavod Kristal"... It was the only time when I almost died by so much booze... At high school my political opinions begun changed, due illegal press an leaflets and may be because of implementation of martial law... I remember never ending discussions about "if Russians come in or not" - but it was in two last years of my basic school.

As for Dimitr, we did not discuss with him and if he was close to hear how bas Soviet Union is and Katyn and many other hot issues.. That's funny but Im my school you could find descendants of all nationalities which completely opposite WW2 family experiences... In those times we used to hear and share stories about secret military bases and even towns which weren't mentioned in any map. I remember separate ticket office a ralway ststions in some cities, where worked only Russian personnel. For us, Russians lived in separate state inside Poland...

In 1990's Rsoviet army was replaced by Russian and Ukrainain gangs and thousands of small traders from every possible part of former SU




....
Which is why I have no problems with your point of view, I am aware of your curiosity.
It's the author's attitude I have a serious problem with.

Pity, because it's difficult to draw conclusions from general remarks...