Man collapses with ruptured appendix... three weeks after NHS doctors 'took it out'

[Geezah]

After weeks of excruciating pain, Mark Wattson was understandably relieved to have his appendix taken out.

Doctors told him the operation was a success and he was sent home.
But only a month later the 35-year-old collapsed in agony and had to be taken back to Great Western Hospital in Swindon by ambulance.

To his shock, surgeons from the same team told him that not only was his appendix still inside him, but it had ruptured - a potentially fatal complication.
In a second operation it was finally removed, leaving Mr Wattson fearing another organ might have been taken out during the first procedure.

The blunder has left Mr Wattson jobless, as bosses at the shop where he worked did not believe his story and sacked him.
Mr Wattson told of the moment he realised there had been a serious mistake.
'I was lying on a stretcher in terrible pain and a doctor came up to me and said that my appendix had burst,' he said.

'I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I told these people I had my appendix out just four weeks earlier but there it was on the scanner screen for all to see.
'I thought, "What the hell did they slice me open for in the first place?"
'I feel that if the surgery had been done correctly in the first place I wouldn't be in the mess I am today. I'm disgusted by the whole experience.'

Mr Wattson first went under the knife on July 7 after experiencing severe abdominal pain for several weeks. He was discharged but exactly a month later he had to dial 999 after collapsing in agony.

Following the second operation his incision became infected and he was admitted to hospital for a third time for treatment.

He said: 'I had a temporary job at a sports shop but when I took in two medical certificates saying I had my appendix out twice they didn't believe me.

'Now I'm helpless. I can't go out and find a job, I can't go to interviews, I can barely walk and am in constant pain. Before the first operation they told me I had to have my appendix removed and when I woke up afterwards they said it had been a complete success.
'But then I keeled over in agony one month later and when they did some tests at the hospital we could see the appendix was still there on the scans.

'As far as I was aware they took my appendix out and no one told me any different.
'I have no idea what they did take out, but I want to find out what went wrong.'
A spokesman for Great Western Hospital confirmed that a representative had met Mr Wattson and that an investigation had been started.
He was unable to confirm what, if anything, was removed in the first operation.
Paul Gearing, deputy general manager for general surgery at Great Western Hospital NHS Trust, said: 'We are unable to comment on individual cases.

'However, we would like to apologise if Mr Wattson felt dissatisfied with the care he received at Great Western Hospital.'

Compensation payments to NHS patients have risen by 20 per cent in the past year to a record high of £769million. At this rate more than £2million a day is being paid over claims against the Health Service.

Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208970/Man-collapses-ruptured-appendix--weeks-NHS-doctors-took-out.html)

The kicker is the sh!te poor excuse for an apology.

If he felt dissatisfied with the service received. Just goes to highlight how much the NHS couldn't give a crap.

[LineDoggie]

Wonder what was removed the first time?

[brainplay]

Wonder what was removed the first time?

You and me both brosef. Gall bladder maybe? p-)

[TheSteve]

yes sir, socialism is the devil. Yup.

[Mu-Meson]

Mr Wattson first went under the knife on July 7 after experiencing severe abdominal pain for several weeks. He was discharged but exactly a month later he had to dial 999 after collapsing in agony.

Several weeks? Holy Frack! What, after a week, did he pay no attention to it? After 3 weeks, did he figure it was still going to go away? After 5 weeks, any day now? When I had my appendix out, I woke up in the middle of the night with excruciating pain, and after one day of misery I went to hospital that evening, and had it out in the early hours of the morning. So, 24 hrs +/- a couple hours.

At least I think they took it out. This was in England.....

[Corrupt]

Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208970/Man-collapses-ruptured-appendix--weeks-NHS-doctors-took-out.html)

The kicker is the sh!te poor excuse for an apology.

If he felt dissatisfied with the service received. Just goes to highlight how much the NHS couldn't give a crap.

Wow, even doctors can make mistakes, unfortunately for them people tend to die, unlike people at super markets where you get charged 47p for a lettuce instead of 42p for a cabbage.

Yes its very sad and I feel sorry for the man and his family, but it is hardly representative of the NHS as a whole, which by and large does an excellent job of providing healthcare to the whole country, they did fine when my Grandfather needed a pacemaker and my brother had his tonsils removed for example.

Sorry if it seems harsh, but I remember your accusations during the NHS having evil death squads thread about it being so terrible and it kinda smarts given how well iv seen it work and the fact several of my family work there and this seems to be posted in a similar vein. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Estopped]

This is a pathetic game. How about we post stories about guys with teh same problem in the US who can't get treated because they don't have insurance in the first place. Or those that do get treated and then get saddled with a huge bill that bankrupts them and forces them onto the streets.

Negligence happens in both the UK and the US. This man would be better served by getting compensation for his troubles.

[Olybrius]

This is a pathetic game. How about we post stories about guys with teh same problem in the US who can't get treated because they don't have insurance in the first place. Or those that do get treated and then get saddled with a huge bill that bankrupts them and forces them onto the streets.

Negligence happens in both the UK and the US. This man would be better served by getting compensation for his troubles.

yeah its funny how some people don't like to focus on their own country


In the U.S., medical errors are estimated to result in 44,000 to 98,000 unnecessary deaths and 1,000,000 excess injuries each year .[1][2] One older extrapolation suggests '180,000 people die each year partly as a result of iatrogenic injury, the equivalent of three jumbo-jet crashes every 2 days'.[3] It is estimated that in a typical 100 to 300 bed hospital in the United States, excess costs of $1,000,000 to $3,000,000 attributable to prolonged stays and complications just due to medication errors occur yearly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_error

[Kaplanr]

Happens in the non communist world too.

http://milwaukee.injuryboard.com/medical-malpractice/minnesota-hospital-admits-wrong-organ-removed.aspx?googleid=233274
Minnesota Hospital Admits Wrong Organ Removed

Methodist Hospital in Minnesota acknowledged that their medical staff accidentally removed the wrong organ from a patient. Dr. Samuel Carlson, chief medical officer for Park Nicollet Health Services, stated that one of the surgeons removed a patient's healthy kidney and left the cancerous one in place.


The surgery was performed last Tuesday, but it wasn't until the next day that a pathologist noticed the kidney taken from the patient was healthy. The doctor who removed the kidney - a veteran surgeon - has voluntary stopped seeing patients. Carlson says the mistake may have originated at a Park Nicollet clinic.

Wrong-site surgeries do happen, last year there were 24 in Minnesota, but removal of the wrong organ rarely happens. In the past four-and-a-half years that Minnesota has been collecting data there has not been any wrong organ removals.

Most hospitals have safety measures prevent wrong-site surgery, such as marking body parts that are being operated on before surgery and requiring a break in the operating room so surgical staff can double check documentation. Apparently standard protocols were followed at Methodist Hospital to avoid wrong-site surgery, but that was not enough. The hospital has now added another safety procedure requiring that surgeons double check MRI and CT scans before beginning surgery.

Neither the identity of the surgeon or the patient have been disclosed. It is known that the patient is still under the care of the Methodist Hospital.

[deagle]

"dissatisfied" ?

i wonder if thats how that hospital spokesperson or manager would feel when they get fired and getting sued.

[Corrupt]

"dissatisfied" ?

i wonder if thats how that hospital spokesperson or manager would feel when they get fired and getting sued.

Why, the botched job isnt their fault, its just their job to apologise in a very formal manner and make no other comments lest tabloids rip them to shreds in print

[seraosha]

Happens in the non communist world too.

http://milwaukee.injuryboard.com/medical-malpractice/minnesota-hospital-admits-wrong-organ-removed.aspx?googleid=233274
Minnesota Hospital Admits Wrong Organ Removed

Holy crap! That's worse than the mystery appendix...took out the healthy kidney and left the cancerous one? Sweet Jesus, I thought the sharpie pen pointing to the right side for surgery was a joke!

[Geezah]

yeah its funny how some people don't like to focus on their own country



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_error

Why would we, when the possible model for complete reform is the British one, which I have 26yrs worth of experiemce with compared to my 13yrs in the US?

If the numbers reported on Wiki are correct for the US. I would say we aren't doing half bad with our medical system compared to the NHS, considering our population size is 304,059,724 to the UKs 60,943,912.


Blundering hospitals 'kill 40,000 a year'

One in ten treated by NHS falls victim to errors, officials admit

ONE in ten patients admitted to NHS hospitals will fall victim to medical errors, which have now become Britain’s fourth-biggest killer.
Medical accidents and errors contribute to the deaths of 72,000 people a year, and they are directly blamed for 40,000. They also cost the NHS £2 billion in increased hospital stays alone.

However, fewer than a third of an estimated 900,000 annual mistakes are properly reported, an independent audit reveals today.

The report by the healthcare research group Dr Foster highlights both the scale of medical error in the NHS and the extent to which the system for reporting them is failing.

Roger Taylor, research director of Dr Foster, said: “Compared with the transport industry, the number of errors causing very high levels of death is extraordinary.”

Action Against Medical Accidents, a charity which helps victims of medical negligence, said: “The research confirms our experience of an alarming rate of errors occurring in our NHS. The figures do not even include errors occurring in primary care, such as in GPs’ surgeries, and are likely to be significantly less than the actual rate as they are only based on reported errors.

“Our experience is that all too often the health provider does not even recognise that a mistake has been made. The vast majority of clinical negligence claims which end up being successful are robustly defended by the NHS.”

The Dr Foster study, which is published today in the British Medical Journal, shows that the number of mistakes to which NHS hospitals openly admit is a small fraction of the total accepted by the Government’s patient safety watchdog.

It found that only 276,514 errors were recorded each year by English hospitals, even though the National Patient Safety Agency (NSPA) puts the true figure at closer to 900,000.

Approximately 25 per cent of errors occur during surgery, and another 25 per cent in diagnosis or pre-care. The other half of all mistakes are made during treatment on the ward. They can range from providing patients with inadequate nutrition to prescribing the wrong dose of medication.

The figures do not include any hospital-acquired infections or complications of childbirth, and almost 10 per cent of the trusts surveyed claimed an unlikely error rate of zero.

“It shows there is not enough transparency,” Mr Taylor said. “Sometimes no one ever finds out if a patient died as a result of something going wrong — it may never go outside the group involved in that patient’s care.

“We need to increase pressure and encourage organisations to make this a top priority. People would be concerned about flying with an airline which had two crashes. That’s an infinitessimal risk when compared with a problem of this magnitude. It’s an absurd situation.”

Research around the world has indicated that most hospitals have an error rate of about 10 per cent, and that about half these incidents could have been prevented.

Dr Foster analysed more than 50 million “episodes” of patient care, defined as a period spent under the supervision of one doctor, and found 276,514 were recorded as involving an adverse event. This rate of 2.2 per cent clearly underplays the true extent of the problem, the researchers said.

The NPSA estimates that medical errors contribute to around 72,000 deaths each year, making them the fourth leading cause of death after cardiovascular disease, cancer and respiratory conditions.

Male and elderly patients are the most likely to be affected, the Dr Foster report found. Many mistakes are caused by a bewildering range of equipment that is used in the same hospitals: a recent NPSA study, for example, found that most trusts use 31 different types of intravenous drip.

NHS trusts are now required to have a “no-blame” reporting system for adverse events involving error, but doctors and experts said this is not yet working smoothly.

Mr Taylor said: “There’s a culture of ‘well we’re all working very hard and it’s inevitable that these things happen’. To the public that is shocking. The only barriers to recording this information properly are ones of will, politics and breaking down culture. A doctor’s perception of this problem is very different from the man in the street.”

Edwin Borman, deputy chairman of the British Medical Association consultants’ committee, said: “These findings are not a surprise. We have to crack this issue of reliable reporting by introducing a true no-blame culture, which we haven’t acknowledged yet properly in the UK. The system is still paper-based, and it gets swamped.” Sarah Teather, a Liberal Democrat spokeswoman on health spokesperson, said a no-fault compensation scheme was needed if the NHS is to make progress on the issue.

“A no-blame reporting system is no good without a compensation system to match,” she said. “At the moment doctors face quadruple jeopardy. They face disciplinary action with hair-trigger suspensions, the police can get involved, they can be referred to the GMC and there is the prospect of tort.”

The NPSA said: “The agency welcomes this study and fully supports the conclusion that hospitals should be encouraged to improve the recording and reporting of adverse events.

“Only by gathering information from the widest possible range of sources can we establish the most accurate picture possible of patient safety issues and take steps to make the NHS safer for patients.”

A spokesman for the Patients’ Association said: “We must have confidence that any harm to patients is avoided but with such poor recording, including not having specific records for MRSA or other hospital-aquired infections, the figures suggest the tip of a much bigger iceberg.”

Link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article468980.ece)


One million patients victims of NHS blunders

Nearly one million patients are victims of NHS blunders or near-misses each year - but the true figure is far higher, warns a hard-hitting report.
The number could be halved if the Health Service took on board lessons from previous accidents and acted promptly on safety alerts, it says.
Massive under-reporting of deaths and serious incidents means the NHS 'simply has no idea' how many people are dying each year, says the influential Commons Public Accounts Committee (PAC).
It estimates there could be almost one-quarter of a million more incidents - some of them serious - that go unreported each year, based on evidence from trusts.
Big differences between similarly-sized trusts in the number of incidents - from a few to many thousands - suggest some may be discouraging such reports.
PAC chairman Edward Leigh said official estimates show one in 10 patients admitted to NHS hospitals is unintentionally harmed and there has been insufficient progress in cutting the level of avoidable incidents.
Mr Leigh attacked the "dysfunctional performance" of National Patient Safety Agency - which costs £34 million a year to run - for delivering a national reporting system "several years late" and poor value for money for the taxpayer.
He strongly criticised trusts for failing to tell patients when things go wrong - only one in four routinely keeps patients informed.
There were 940,000 reports of incidents and near-misses last year, which include blunders ranging from medication errors and drug interactions to missing emergency equipment and the wrong limbs being amputated.
Mr Leigh said: "These statistics would be terrifying enough without our learning that there is undoubtedly substantial under-reporting of serious incidents and deaths.
"To top it all, the NHS simply has no idea how many people die each year from patient safety incidents."
He said the NHS was failing on a "staggering scale" to learn from previous experience.
"Around 50 per cent of all actual incidents might have been avoided if NHS staff had learned lessons from previous ones" he said.
'Urgency'
Peter Walsh, chief executive of the charity Action against Medical Accidents (AvMA), said it wanted an "injection of urgency" to improve patient safety.
He said even more patients were at risk than the report allowed for, as it did not include 300,000 reports of hospital-acquired infections each year including the superbug MRSA.
He said "People have not woken up to the problem. Although the reports include near misses, they stil have the potential to damage patients.
"The scary thing is we cannot have any degree of confidence that things are getting any better. We want to see more teeth given to existing guidelines and safety alerts - it should be compulsory for NHS providers to implement them.
"It will come as a shock to many that some safety alerts are more or less ignored by NHS trusts, and there is patchy compliance with guidance on reporting incidents and being open with patients when things go wrong."
A drive to improve patient safety began in 2000 when the Government's Chief Medical Officer issued a report saying one in 10 hospital patients was unintentionally harmed each year, costing the NHS £2billion in extra bed days and £400million in settled clinical negligence claims.
The PAC said there was a question mark over value for money from the National Patient Safety Agency.
It had gone at least £1 billion over budget in setting up a reporting system and was giving only limited feedback of solutions to trusts to cut serious incidents.
Safety alerts issued to trusts were not always complied with - though trusts claim they are, said the PAC.
Liberal Democrat health spokesman Steve Webb said: "In an organisation the size of the NHS, mistakes are bound to happen, but the key issue is whether lessons are learned. This was the whole point of the National Patient Safety Agency.
"Endless delays by the Government in setting up the safety information database have put patient safety at risk.
"The Government must ensure that safety information and best practice is shared throughout the NHS far more efficiently."
Dr Gill Morgan, chief executive of the NHS Confederation, said the report acknowledged progress "but quite rightly concludes that there is still further work to be done in this area".
She added: "It is still relatively early days in the new system for reporting incidents that affect patient safety. As the system becomes more routine and more incidents are reported, we would expect the headline figures of patient safety incidents to increase.
NPSA Joint Chief Executive Susan Williams said "We have launched and connected every Trust in England and Wales to our national incident reporting system - the first of its kind in health worldwide - and are now receiving up to 55,000 reports every month.
"We have issued 16 safety solutions in the form of alerts as well as a range of advisory reports to promote safer care for patients. Implementing just two of our safety alerts should save the NHS at least £52 million ? a significant proportion of the total investment in the NPSA."
Health Minister Andy Burnham said "Improving patient safety has been a fundamental priority running through our policies to improve the quality of NHS care.
"In the context where each month the NHS delivers 22.7million treatments across hospital, community and primary care, it is important to remember that the vast majority of NHS patients receive safe and effective care.
"Only a small number of errors will have serious consequences. However, as in any modern and increasingly complex health service, mistakes and unforseen incidents can and will happen.
"Any mistake is one too many but we should remember that similar rates of patient safety incidents occur worldwide."

Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-394238/One-million-patients-victims-NHS-blunders.html)

[Corrupt]

Is there a point to this thread are you now just posting every horror story you can find related to the NHS?
I cant be bothered arguing this with you as you clearly wont listen to any points, if you hate the NHS fine, I dont mind that. I personally am happy with it, yes it can be improved, but what health system cant be, at least everyone has access to it in this country
And I shall leave you with the closing quote from one of the shock articles (from the rather infamous shock story abusing daily mail might I add)

"In the context where each month the NHS delivers 22.7million treatments across hospital, community and primary care, it is important to remember that the vast majority of NHS patients receive safe and effective care.
"Only a small number of errors will have serious consequences. However, as in any modern and increasingly complex health service, mistakes and unforseen incidents can and will happen.
"Any mistake is one too many but we should remember that similar rates of patient safety incidents occur worldwide." health Minister Andy Burnham

[Geezah]

Wow, even doctors can make mistakes, unfortunately for them people tend to die, unlike people at super markets where you get charged 47p for a lettuce instead of 42p for a cabbage.

I guess comparing the NHS to a green grocers would be a bad thing. I would say most green grocers can do a better job than the NHS.



Yes its very sad and I feel sorry for the man and his family, but it is hardly representative of the NHS as a whole, which by and large does an excellent job of providing healthcare to the whole country, they did fine when my Grandfather needed a pacemaker and my brother had his tonsils removed for example.

How long was the wait to get his tonsils removed?

It was around 9mths I had to wait to get my wisdom teeth removed.



Sorry if it seems harsh, but I remember your accusations during the NHS having evil death squads thread about it being so terrible and it kinda smarts given how well iv seen it work and the fact several of my family work there and this seems to be posted in a similar vein. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't say anything about death squads, that was someone else, I made mention to the fact the NHS has a bad habit of killing people.

[LineDoggie]

This is a pathetic game. How about we post stories about guys with teh same problem in the US who can't get treated because they don't have insurance in the first place. Or those that do get treated and then get saddled with a huge bill that bankrupts them and forces them onto the streets.

Negligence happens in both the UK and the US. This man would be better served by getting compensation for his troubles. You can be indigent and still recieve Surgery for Appendicitis. When I went for Mine in 98 there were 3 people getting it done for free as its an emergency procedure. 2 Chinese and 1 Hispanic, turned out all Illegals.

And Negligence does happen worldwide, IIRC someone out west had the wrong Kidney removed..

[welshmann]

I think we all know why the starter of this thread has got a problem with the NHS,at least it gives us a break of his complaints about uk gun crime.

[Corrupt]

I guess comparing the NHS to a green grocers would be a bad thing. I would say most green grocers can do a better job than the NHS.
Oh haha you master of wit, i see what you did there, please dont do it again, I can hardly breathe for laughter... My point was everyone makes mistakes, just that even minor innocent mistakes for health staff can have fatal consequences, unlike the super market cashier, who costs someone a few extra pence.



How long was the wait to get his tonsils removed?
It was around 9mths I had to wait to get my wisdom teeth removed.
About 2 and a half months (in 1995)

[quote]
I didn't say anything about death squads, that was someone else, I made mention to the fact the NHS has a bad habit of killing people.

I retract that statement then, but the point still stands as to what is the point of this thread other than to post shock horror stories about the few times the NHS screws up.
Fact is people are going to die eventually and sometimes it will be due to mistakes by hospital staff. Luckily these are rare (though none should be the goal i agree) but the NHS by and large provides an excellent service to everyone that requires it irrespective of social status and thats a brilliant achievement

[welshmann]

Corrupt,why are even bother mate...you know what Geezah is like.

[wotsnext]

Geezah on his hobby horse again.

[Geezah]

Corrupt,why are even bother mate...you know what Geezah is like.

You can't find fault in the arguement, so you attack the messenger.

[Eagle The Lightning]

You can't find fault in the arguement, so you attack the messenger.Theirs nothing wrong with the NHS...
http://i31.tinypic.com/20ueiyw.jpg

[welshmann]

no,i just think your acting a knob,we know what ure stance is on the NHS,you have explained in another thread.and i guess we will see a lot of these threads by yourself over the next few months.

[Vandervahn]

You can't find fault in the arguement, so you attack the messenger.

Well actually there was no message delivered because one hospital staff =/= the NHS.

[Geezah]

no,i just think your acting a knob,we know what ure stance is on the NHS,you have explained in another thread.and i guess we will see a lot of these threads by yourself over the next few months.

Well considering this is the Political Discussions and Rants section(feel free to ignore this thread at any time), I would say it's not out of line to post about a subject that is held close to all those that reside legally in the US. Especially since the UK model has been used time and again as an example of what we should want to be like with US healthcare.

[Geezah]

There's nothing wrong with the NHS...
http://i31.tinypic.com/20ueiyw.jpg

Fixed it for you.......

I've yet to come across anything that you have posted that offers any type of substance other than a jpeg, but you might be a closet geni-arse considering the sad state of affairs with the lack of NHS dentists!


Lack of NHS dentists forces patients abroad

In the past 10 weeks, Lisa Hewer has twice thought seriously about taking her own life. ''In moments of utterly agonising pain I've considered taking a handful of these, washing them down with something alcoholic and putting myself out of this misery for good," she says dejectedly.

Opening her clasped palm, she reveals two white tablets: they are the morphine-based painkillers Lisa was prescribed after the intensive dental treatment she received abroad to replace two missing teeth caused a raging gum infection so severe that her face swelled to twice its size, forcing both her eyes shut.

Within days of her treatment, Lisa was in such pain that she was admitted to her local hospital in Portsmouth. ''The hospital dentist was shocked when he saw me," Lisa says slowly. Her mouth is still so sore that even speaking is a struggle.

To the dentist's disbelief an X-ray revealed that Lisa's upper front tooth had been filed down so much during preparation for a dental bridge that its nerve had been killed.

The infection she contracted spread to all her teeth and, though the hospital immediately inserted a drain and gave her a course of strong antibiotics, she was told that only root-canal treatment on every molar in her mouth would save her teeth.

''On a scale of one to 10, I would say this pain is a 20," Lisa lisps. ''I don't know how serious I was about killing myself. But in dark moments it seemed like a way out. As it is, I have lost a stone in weight, I live off soup and yoghurt, I can barely speak and I can't look after my children. All I have been able to do is lie in bed in agony."

Lisa is just one of 45,000 Britons who have travelled abroad for dental treatment in the past 12 months. She did so because, like 78 per cent of people in Britain, she was unable to find an NHS dentist willing to carry out bridge work and she could not afford to pay for treatment at a private practice. Those she called quoted prices from £18,000 to £48,000.

A survey, last week, of 5,000 patients and 750 dentists revealed that Britain is now so woefully short of state-funded dentists that one in 20 people say they have resorted to some style of DIY dentistry — a handful agonisingly pulling out their own teeth with pliers — because the soaring cost of private treatment is way beyond their means.

The lengths to which some have gone is mind-boggling: desperate patients have plugged crowns with chewing gum, poured Polyfilla into cavities and used Super Glue to replace teeth that have fallen out. One in five people say they now go without treatment, again because they cannot afford private prices.

But the real scandal of the pitiful state of NHS dentistry is the spiralling numbers of those who feel forced to go abroad to receive treatment that they should get here.

While Hungary and the Czech Republic are the most popular, other countries that offer private services to Britons at a fraction of the cost are Thailand, Mexico, India and Poland.

Lisa's case is extreme: she admits that warning bells should have rung when she realised none of the staff at the Hungarian clinic she visited spoke English and she was left to communicate through a translator.

By contrast, many foreign dental practices, such as Vital Europe, which has a clinic in Budapest and carries out its initial consultations in Harley Street, offer safe, highly competitive and sophisticated dental services, with aftercare safeguards built in.

Not all, however, are so diligent. As Dr Nigel Carter, the chief executive of the British Dental Foundation, points out: ''So-called 'dental holidays' are presented as a cheap alternative to getting treatment in this country, but if things go wrong, then nothing could be further from the truth. We advise people against going abroad for dental work."

In July alone, he says, about 300,000 Britons searched the internet for details about treatment abroad, a 50 per cent increase on the month before. ''However, while the idea of saving a few thousand pounds is tempting many people to go abroad, a quick look at the risk factors might be enough to persuade them to think again."

Government policy on NHS dental services has been both conflicting and confusing. In 1999, Tony Blair promised that ''within two years everyone will once again have access to an NHS dentist". When he did get round to addressing the problem, he achieved exactly the opposite.

In April 2006, when new NHS dental contracts were drawn up, they severely limited the number of treatments dentists could claim from the NHS. The supposed aim was to make the service less complicated. Instead, the result was that dentists flocked into the private sector.


While it is true that the number of dentists has increased from 15,000 in 1999 to more than 24,000 now, almost none works exclusively for the state.

Thus, in the past year, 1.4 million people have been left without access to a NHS dentist and, according to a survey by HSA, the medical payment plan provider, about 40 per cent of those questioned believed it was ''only a matter of time" before NHS dentistry disappeared altogether.

Needless to say, the private sector is booming. Virtually non-existent 20 years ago, it is now worth £2.4 billion. In 1990, for example, only five per cent of a dentist's income came from private patients. Today it is nearer 60 per cent.

The prices they charge, compared with those offered abroad, are what makes dental tourism seem such a tempting solution. In Britain, for example, an implant costs about £2,100; root-canal treatment, £300, and a crown, £500.

Those same procedures in Hungary or the Czech Republic are respectively £629; £65 and £189. A full set of implants for someone who has lost all their teeth because of gum disease can cost £50,000 in this country. In eastern Europe, the procedure costs an average of £16,000.

But lower costs (including the expansion of bargain flights) and the paucity of NHS dentists are not the only reasons. Increasing concerns about the standard of hospital cleanliness have also made many wary.

''We have a lot of enquiries from people who fear contracting MRSA from dental practices in this country," says one overseas company. ''Frankly, Britain's poor record for hospital infections has coloured many people's views on all medical procedures."

Lisa was offered a permanent bridge for her two missing teeth, whitening and the replacement of five mercury fillings for £3,500 — considerably less that the lowest price of £18,000 she was quoted here.

She flew to a little-known Hungarian town and was impressed when she saw the finished work. Two days later she was in agony.

She has, however, been one of the lucky ones. When a private dentist in Liverpool heard on a radio programme of her plight, he agreed to repair the work free of charge. ''I owe him everything," she says. ''My final appointment is in four days' time and I cannot wait to be pain free. Going abroad was the worst decision of my life."

Even when they heard of Lisa's problems, the Hungarian clinic had refused to do the repairs. ''That is the sad result of travelling abroad for treatment," says Dr Carter. ''Some people are left with shoddy work that will need to be repaired by a UK dentist at a much higher cost. One of our dental helpline advisers recently took a call from a patient who had travelled to India to save on the cost of crowns.

"Instead of saving money, the patient returned after an unsuccessful procedure in a great deal of pain and without an obvious route to recoup his money. He was clearly distressed and it was made worse with the news that it would cost £9,000 to rectify the treatment carried out so far."

For others, however, the experience has been pain free and positive. As dentist Anthony Halperin, the chairman of the Patients' Association, points out, the majority of foreign dentists are well qualified.

About 95 per cent of those travelling abroad will be satisfied, he says. ''But protection and independent advice for patients going abroad is something that needs to be addressed fast and we are looking into it urgently."

Myra Lovett, 61, who lives in Benfleet, Essex, searched long and hard for an NHS dentist before doing a thorough investigation into overseas practices. ''My teeth were in a dreadful state, I needed an enormous amount of work. I opted for Vital Europe because they did their consultations in London, I met the dentist before flying to Budapest and they have a tremendous reputation."

Ms Lovett made three trips to the Hungarian capital, where she received treatment and accommodation at a cost of £7,400. The work carried out included six root-canal treatments, two implants, 24 crowns and 23 bridges. In Britain it would have cost more than £21,000.

Yesterday, as she sat in the dentist's chair for the last time, she was, says her partner, Martin, a changed woman. ''Myra had absolutely no confidence because of the poor condition of her teeth," he said. ''She wouldn't go out and if she did, she covered her mouth with her hand when she spoke. Now she is vibrant."

Twenty minutes later, Ms Lovett emerged from the surgery happy to bare her new, brilliant smile. ''I've been treated with compassion and, importantly for me, not made to feel that because I had tooth decay I was someone who had not bothered with dental hygiene," she says.

''In England, even if I could have afforded private treatment, I know I would have been herded into a production-line clinic and spoken to as though I had caused my own problems. Here the staff realise that many of us find dental appointments nerve-racking and we are embarrassed by the state of our teeth.

''And every procedure is explained in detail. At home, dentists behave as though we should not question them. In this clinic, the patient comes first. That makes an enormous difference."

In the next treatment room Karen Sparkes, 44, from London, is also finishing her final treatment. She, like Mrs Lovett, has saved more than £4,000 by opting to be treated in Hungary. ''I spent ages making phone calls to try to find an NHS dentist," she says. ''No one would take me, so when I read about this clinic I jumped at the chance."


''Apart from quoting me much higher prices, private dentists at home were suggesting that I have the work done over six months — with monthly appointments. I would much rather get it all over with in a week as I'm doing here."

Richard Petho, the co-owner of the clinic, says he has been swamped with calls from potential patients in the UK. He estimates his four dentists are treating about 200 British patients a month, and he is scathing about the professionalism of his British counterparts.

''We are filling the gap left by the NHS," he says. ''Dental costs are now so horrendously high in the UK that the middle classes can't afford them. And dentists in the UK's private sector see only a handful of patients a day, then leave for an afternoon on the golf course.

"Here, our dentists are conscientious and hard working. We give attentive treatment. Something your dentists seem to have forgotten about. Our patients come here to get the treatment they once would have received in their home country where they pay their taxes and national insurance. Who can blame them. England no longer puts its citizens first."

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566872/Lack-of-NHS-dentists-forces-patients-abroad.html)

[wotsnext]

Theirs nothing wrong with the NHS...
http://i31.tinypic.com/20ueiyw.jpg
Damn you Eagle...........I'm at the dentists tomorrow.

[welshmann]

Well considering this is the Political Discussions and Rants section(feel free to ignore this thread at any time), I would say it's not out of line to post about a subject that is held close to all those that reside legally in the US. Especially since the UK model has been used time and again as an example of what we should want to be like with US healthcare.

i agree,but ure like a stuck record.

[Eagle The Lightning]

Fixed it for you.......

I've yet to come across anything that you have posted that offers any type of substance other than a jpeg, but you might be a closet geni-arse considering the sad state of affairs with the lack of NHS dentists!
I'm glad to see you're not letting your education get in the way of your ignorance...http://i30.tinypic.com/a1i7px.jpg

[CMNot]

You can't find fault in the arguement, so you attack the messenger.

There is little point. We've all seen you have an axe to grind, and will never change tack.

Despite the fact that infant mortality is far lower in the UK, and life expectancy longer.

Not bad for pinko commie scum.

[Niels]

Despite the fact that infant mortality is far lower in the UK, and life expectancy longer.
Yeah, but can you walk around with a gat in your pants to defend yourself from tyranny and oppression?

[Corrupt]

Yeah, but can you walk around with a gat in your pants to defend yourself from tyranny and oppression?

More importantly is there a need to?
I've managed 19 years living in Middlesbrough (apparantly the worst town in the Uk) and Manchester (which is known for its gun crime these days) and have yet to come home with a hole in me

[welshmann]

oh christ! plz dont say anthing about gun crime ffs.u will encourage him.

[XShipRider]

Wonder what was removed the first time?

One of the attendings missing a finger, maybe?

[Geezah]

I'm glad to see you're not letting your education get in the way of your ignorance...http://i30.tinypic.com/a1i7px.jpg

Well, now that's a little better than a jpeg. Good for you.

[Geezah]

There is little point. We've all seen you have an axe to grind, and will never change tack.

Despite the fact that infant mortality is far lower in the UK, and life expectancy longer.

Not bad for pinko commie scum.



The babies born in hospital corridors: Bed shortage forces 4,000 mothers to give birth in lifts, offices and hospital toilets

Thousands of women are having to give birth outside maternity wards because of a lack of midwives and hospital beds.
The lives of mothers and babies are being put at risk as births in locations ranging from lifts to toilets - even a caravan - went up 15 per cent last year to almost 4,000.
Health chiefs admit a lack of maternity beds is partly to blame for the crisis, with hundreds of women in labour being turned away from hospitals because they are full.
Latest figures show that over the past two years there were at least:

63 births in ambulances and 608 in transit to hospitals;

117 births in A&E departments, four in minor injury units and two in medical assessment areas;

115 births on other hospital wards and 36 in other unspecified areas including corridors;

399 in parts of maternity units other than labour beds, including postnatal and antenatal wards and reception areas.
Additionally, overstretched maternity units shut their doors to any more women in labour on 553 occasions last year.
Babies were born in offices, lifts, toilets and a caravan, according to the Freedom of Information data for 2007 and 2008 from 117 out of 147 trusts which provide maternity services.
One woman gave birth in a lift while being transferred to a labour ward from A&E while another gave birth in a corridor, said East Cheshire NHS Trust.
Others said women had to give birth on the wards - rather than in their own maternity room - because the delivery suites were full.

Tory health spokesman Andrew Lansley, who obtained the figures, said Labour had cut maternity beds by 2,340, or 22 per cent, since 1997. At the same time birth rates have been rising sharply - up 20 per cent in some areas.
Mr Lansley said: 'New mothers should not be being put through the trauma of having to give birth in such inappropriate places


'While some will be unavoidable emergencies, it is extremely distressing for them and their families to be denied a labour bed because their maternity unit is full.
'It shows the incredible waste that has taken place that mothers are getting this sort of sub-standard treatment despite Gordon Brown's tripling of spending on the NHS.
'Labour have let down mothers by cutting the number of maternity beds and by shutting down maternity units.'

The NHS employs the equivalent of around 25,000 full-time midwives in England, but the Government has promised to recruit 3,400 more.
However, the Royal College of Midwives estimates at least 5,000 more are needed to provide the quality of service pledged in the Government's blueprint for maternity services, Maternity Matters.
At the same time almost half of all midwives are set to retire in the next decade.

Jon Skewes, a director at the Royal College of Midwives, said: 'The rise in the number of births in other than a designated labour bed is a concern. We would want to see the detail behind these figures to look at why this is happening.
'There is no doubt that maternity services are stretched, and that midwives are working harder and harder to provide good quality care. However, we know the Government is putting more money into the service.
'The key now is to make sure this money is spent by the people controlling the purse strings at a local level.'

Care services minister Phil Hope said: 'The number of maternity beds in the NHS reflects the number of women wanting to give birth in hospital. Giving birth can be unpredictableand it is difficult to plan for the exact time and place of every birth.
'Local health services have plans to ensure high quality, personal care with greater choice over place of birth and care provided by a named midwife.
'We recognise that some parts of the country face particular challenges due to the rising birth rate and that is why last year we pledged to increase funding for maternity by £330million over three years.

'We now have more maternity staff than ever before and we have already met our target to recruit 1,000 extra midwives by September.'


Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1209034/The-babies-born-hospital-corridors-Bed-shortage-forces-4-000-mothers-birth-lifts-offices-hospital-toilets.html)

Are abortions factered into the infant mortality rates in the US and the UK?
I'm just curious that a country that has a horrendous standard of care would rate higher. Plus considering the debate over abortion here, compared to the UK, I would say that any infant death would place in that number.

[Eagle The Lightning]

Well, now that's a little better than a jpeg. Good for you.You must be the arithmetic man; you add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance.

[Geezah]

You must be the arithmetic man; you add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance.

See, that's all it took.

Now where is the jpeg?

[Eagle The Lightning]

See, that's all it took.

Now where is the jpeg?Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you abuse the privilege.

[JJC]

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you abuse the privilege.
So how do you explain the article's claims? 4000 births in toilets, lifts, and offices due to shortages in beds sounds pretty scary for a developed country.

[Far]

You and me both brosef. Gall bladder maybe? p-)Physiologically speaking, he probably had what is commonly called "stump appendicitis". Stump appendicitis is a rare clinicopathologic complication characterized by inflammation of the appendiceal remnant after incomplete appendectomy. Basically, most of his appendix was removed, but a small "stump" was left, which in turn got infected and ruptured. The appendix is located at the junction between the terminal ileum and beginning of the cecum (large intestine). The gall bladder is located under the right lobe of the liver, in the upper (not lower) right quadrant of the abdomen.
If the specimen that was removed was not apendix, the pathologist who looked at the specimen after the surgery would have notified the surgeon and they would have gone in and taken out the correct organ. Also, clinically, his symptoms would not have changed after a few days out from surgery, which would have alerted the surgeon...or so it would be here in US.

[CMNot]

Infant mortality rarely takes abortion into account, as abortions are pre-natal mortality. Unless you are of the mad ass Jesus persuasion. They do however tend to stake spontaneous abortions into account.

The article raises valid points, but unfortunately serves more to highlight media strain theory than anything objective regarding the NHS. Just look at the ambiguous language.


63 births in ambulances and 608 in transit to hospitals;

Naughty Mum, couldn't she just hold it? Women :roll:


117 births in A&E departments

What proportion of these were direct admittances to A&E? How many of these mothers were hurt in an accident? Did this induce on Labour? How many of these were emergency c-sections?


399 in parts of maternity units other than labour bedsHow many of these were birthing pool deliveries, etc.? Where where they delivered then? I'm going to assume it was the floor (which is what they want you to think), as if that was the case the Mary Whitehouse brigade at the Mail would have postered it all over the story.


115 births on other hospital wards and 36 in other unspecified areas including corridors;What other wards? Was mother in intensive care when the infant was delivered?

Total, unspecific drivel aimed at the type of idiot who buys newpapers (particularly but not limited to tabloids) and who has no analytical skills what so ever.

There are in excess of 700,000 births per annum in the UK. It stands to good reason, that as all of these involve humans, there will be errors. 4000 already sounds fairly low; as I have demonstrated, the real figure will be a good way below 4000. But then the Mail know this, which is why they are so non-committal with their figures. Insinuation and inference are far effective at shifting **** to the chattering classes than actual, credible intelligence.

There is only one important part of the entire article:


The rise in the number of births in other than a designated labour bed is a concern. We would want to see the detail behind these figures to look at why this is happening.

'There is no doubt that maternity services are stretched, and that midwives are working harder and harder to provide good quality care. However, we know the Government is putting more money into the service.

'The key now is to make sure this money is spent by the people controlling the purse strings at a local level.'That's it. That's the relevant public service information. But hell, that ain't going to sell newspapers.

[Corrupt]

So how do you explain the article's claims? 4000 births in toilets, lifts, and offices due to shortages in beds sounds pretty scary for a developed country.

Note the article is from a paper known as the Daily Mail, that regularly runs shock headlines that are based on rumours at best to sell papers. Its also quite racist (it supported Hitler during WW2 aswell) Noone in the Uk really pays it much attention, though I sometimes read it for a giggle.
Im just waiting for the headline "Unrecorded islamic immigrants bring new form of HIV that will lower your houseprice" where they can get every single worry of the British public in one title

EDIT: CMN explained it much better than me

[Eagle The Lightning]

So how do you explain the article's claims? 4000 births in toilets, lifts, and offices due to shortages in beds sounds pretty scary for a developed country.It's hard to get the big picture when you have such a small screen, I was talking about Geezah.

[wotsnext]

Well I servived the dentist this morning, I'm just £38 quid lighter.

[Geezah]

Well I servived the dentist this morning, I'm just £38 quid lighter.

Private or NHS?

[Geezah]

Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you abuse the privilege.

That's grand coming from paint by numbers.

Like I wrote before, I have not come across anything where you have offered anything of substance to the debate or arguement, other than jpegs or now one liners.

Troll springs to mind........

[Geezah]

Note the article is from a paper known as the Daily Mail, that regularly runs shock headlines that are based on rumours at best to sell papers.

Please, it is not the Sport.



Its also quite racist

Run by the BNP as well now?



(it supported Hitler during WW2 aswell)

Incorrect, it gave support to Hitler prior to his invasion of Poland, then they backed the people and the British Government 100% when the war started.



Noone in the Uk really pays it much attention, though I sometimes read it for a giggle.
Im just waiting for the headline "Unrecorded islamic immigrants bring new form of HIV that will lower your houseprice" where they can get every single worry of the British public in one title

There are plenty of stories from other tabloids that highlight the poor service the NHS offes, just because a story comes from a tabloid you do not like does not make it false.

[Eagle The Lightning]

That's grand coming from paint by numbers.

Like I wrote before, I have not come across anything where you have offered anything of substance to the debate or arguement, other than jpegs or now one liners.

Troll springs to mind........ Keep copying and pasting all your facts you Wisenheimer, Don't go away mad, just go away, or talk to someone else because I don't care what you think.

[wotsnext]

Private or NHS?
I think its a bit of a mix, NHS topped up with a small private charge.

[Geezah]

I think its a bit of a mix, NHS topped up with a small private charge.

OK, I used to go private for dental care, but went through the NHS to get my wisdom teeth taken out. Hence the almost 9mth wait from when I went to the NHS Dentist to when I was called the night before to report to the hospital.

[Bia]

If he felt dissatisfied with the service received. Just goes to highlight how much the NHS couldn't give a crap.Storys much worse... with private American physicians happen all the time too... this isnt a NHS issue... it's a human retard issue.

[Corrupt]

Please, it is not the Sport.

Run by the BNP as well now?

Incorrect, it gave support to Hitler prior to his invasion of Poland, then they backed the people and the British Government 100% when the war started.

There are plenty of stories from other tabloids that highlight the poor service the NHS offes, just because a story comes from a tabloid you do not like does not make it false.

1) No its not, but its hardly a respected broadsheet.
2) No, but it is famed for targeting immigrants and anything else not stereotypically british
3) I stand corrected, its still an excellent piece of evidence of the quality and nature of daily mail journalism though
4) Il start worrying when higher end papers start proclaiming our doom. Its doesnt make it false, but it does make it exaggerated and misrepresented as CMN explained

[wotsnext]

How about a few examples of the US system.
Celebrities Aren't Immune To Medical Malpractice

We’ve seen tons of examples where medical malpractice has had disasterous consequences for patients. Now we read that a number of celebs have faced these screw-ups. Here are some famous and, unfortunately, some fatal cases.
NOTE: Some readers are mistakenly thinking that being aware of medical malpractice means one doesn't want to reform the system. Quite the contrary. Mistakes DO happen. But the current system benefits everyone except MOST patients, it hurts docs and it cripples healthcare. Thank you, the management.
John Ritter
http://thismakesmesick.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/ritter.gifIn March 2006, the wife and four children of the late actor who died in 2003 at Providence St. Joseph Medical Center in Burbank, California, reached a settlement with the hospital for his death. Ritter's family alleged that doctors misdiagnosed his condition as a heart attack and failed to provide proper treatment for the tear in his aorta, which led to his death.
**** Schaap
http://thismakesmesick.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/schaap.jpgThe legendary sportswriter and broadcaster went in for a routine hip replacement surgery at the prestigious Lenox Hill hospital in New York in 2001. Schaap contracted an infection at the hospital and died three months later at the age of 67. After Schaap’s death, his widow Trish said, “I'm so angry because **** did his--any job that he did, he did very well. He did them to the best of his ability. He didn't leave stones unturned. And all those doctors had to do--they didn't have to be brilliant or geniuses. All they had to do was do their job the way **** always did his. It's devastating that this is the way he had to die.” The Schaap family filed a lawsuit and the jury found the doctors negligent in their care for Schaap and awarded the family $1.9.
Dana Carvey
http://thismakesmesick.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/carvey.jpgThe comedian sued his heart surgeon for operating on the wrong artery when he underwent a double bypass in 1998. The doctor settled for an undisclosed amount, which Carvey donated to charity. Carvey said, “This lawsuit, from the beginning, was about accountability and doing everything I could to make sure that it wouldn't happen to someone else.”
Julie Andrews
http://thismakesmesick.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/andrews.jpgShe underwent surgery in 1997 to remove non-cancerous nodules in her throat. The surgery ended her singing career. She filed a lawsuit claiming she had not been told “the operation carried the risk of permanent hoarseness, ‘irreversible loss of vocal quality’ or other complications that might leave her unable to sing.” It also accused the doctor of operating on both sides of her vocal cord when there was no reason to do anything to the right side. The case was settled in 2000.

[CMNot]

Why do you hate freedom?

[gaz]

I'm glad to see you're not letting your education get in the way of your ignorance...http://i30.tinypic.com/a1i7px.jpg


You must be the arithmetic man; you add trouble, subtract pleasure, divide attention, and multiply ignorance.


Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but you abuse the privilege.


It's hard to get the big picture when you have such a small screen, I was talking about Geezah.


Keep copying and pasting all your facts you Wisenheimer, Don't go away mad, just go away, or talk to someone else because I don't care what you think.

Did someone buy you the big book of internet retorts?

[Geezah]

Storys much worse... with private American physicians happen all the time too... this isnt a NHS issue... it's a human retard issue.

I never ever said that mistakes do not happen over here, it's just that if our current option was replaced with a Government run plan(without an option), things would be a hell of alot worse.
I can pick and choose which Doctor I go to here, I can go for a second, third, forth and so, referral.
My Wife's Grandmother is 93, she has been a cancer survivor for 6yrs now(I think it is 6). She did go to Mas General for treatment as her daughter works there, but she received the best care possible, alot better in my mind than someone in their late 80s would have received while in the care of the NHS.

The Government can not do anything right, this is not just exclusive to the UK, but any country, so why on Earth would I want anything that resembles like the NHS to come to life over here.

[Geezah]

How about a few examples of the US system.
Celebrities Aren't Immune To Medical Malpractice.

I never said things don't go wrong over here, it just happens in far less numbers than it happens in the UK.

[CMNot]

I never said things don't go wrong over here, it just happens in far less numbers than it happens in the UK.

That's a pretty definitive statement. Figures would suggest that gap is not quite as clear cut as you think it is.

200,000 (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=deaths-from-avoidable-medical-error-2009-08-10) preventable deaths from medical mistakes and infections sure sounds like a pretty significant number. For reference, the wiki numbers from an IOM report are ten years out of date. Extrapolate the figure of 30000 deaths through medical error reportedly for the UK (and this is at the top end of the British Medical Journals 20-30k estimate for the sake of fairness) to the US population of 300M, and...oh...that would leave you at ~150,000 deaths per annum through medical error. Those figures no longer look massively disparate. Hell, 22% (http://www.commonwealthfund.org/%7E/media/Files/Publications/Fund%20Report/2002/Apr/Room%20for%20Improvement%20%20Patients%20Report%20on%20the%20Quality%20of%20Their%20Health%20Care/davis_improvement_534%20pdf.pdf) of Americans reported that they or a family member had experienced a medical or prescription drug error. A fifth? Holy lol.

Incidentally having had another good grin at the Mails horror childbirth tales...given the choice between the US and the NHS, I would take my chance with them filthy socialists [sic]. UK maternal death rate seemed quite high at 7.71 per 100000[1] (http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Maternal-Mortality.htm), high until you look at the free worlds (in comparison) whopping rate of 15.1 per 100000[2] (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2409165). Guess those massively overpriced insurance premiums are better for driving the derivatives market than they are for actually providing healthcare. Well, at least ISDA are happy.

[Vandervahn]

I never ever said that mistakes do not happen over here, it's just that if our current option was replaced with a Government run plan(without an option), things would be a hell of alot worse.

Non sequitur. And most plans have the option to go private aswell.


I can pick and choose which Doctor I go to here, I can go for a second, third, forth and so, referral. As you can do in pretty much any other public health care models. The NHS is the odd one out here.



The Government can not do anything right, this is not just exclusive to the UK, but any country, so why on Earth would I want anything that resembles like the NHS to come to life over here.Please stop transferring your bad impression of the NHS to other countries. The NHS is renowned for its inefficiency. Despite your claims, most health care systems in the developed world work entirely different. The most obvious difference is that the NHS employs the medical personnel and facilities itself and also sets the treatment policy, while the usual method that works very well is that the government only sets the guidelines for the insurance companies or manages the insurance itself.

The whole medical community is separate from direct government influence in this case (apart from hospitals being mostly community-owned). This is also the direction Obamacare is taking - the idea is a government-insured general protection, not taking over half the health industry á la NHS. With this, most of your arguments fall flat, your shock stories are not applicable to anyone outside of the UK. Hospitals and private doctors will continue business as usual. The quality and availability of treatment is simply not dependent on the specific form of insurance.

[11 Bravo]

[QUOTE=Vandervahn;4370358. The NHS is renowned for its inefficiency. QUOTE]



So you admit this and to wit what's your freaking point.. matey.... ????.

[muttbutt]

[QUOTE=Vandervahn;4370358. The NHS is renowned for its inefficiency. QUOTE]



So you admit this and to wit what's your freaking point.. matey.... ????.
Did you read what he said besides that bit?

[Corrupt]

Just out of interest did anyone see "mock the week" last night.
If not, check out about 7:30 in on Iplayer. Frankie Boyle has a brilliant opinion on this matter...Andy Parsons has a beautiful follow up joke (and serious point)

http://bbc.co.uk/i/mff4z/?t=6m55s The joke..

[CMNot]

Haha, joint ops. Saw that. The guy kills me. Bit like a death panel, but more definitively.

[Macs.]

So you admit this and to wit what's your freaking point.. matey.... ????.

The NHS isn't the only public health care system out there.

[martinexsquaddie]

What the NHS can't do it can't Guaruntee you get to see the specialist of your choice at a time of your choosing.
it can give you 24-7 care reguardless of your ability to pay. The ability to see a doctor if you are just a bit worried so things get picked up early.