Georgia intercepts Russian arms to South Ossetia

[He219]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040707/thumb.sge.lax01.070704075158.photo00.default-212x384.jpghttp://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040704/thumb.sge.kkj70.040704204013.photo00.default-264x388.jpg
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said that he had received assurances from his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin that Moscow would not interfere in the simmering row between Tbilisi and South Ossetia

Georgia intercepts Russian convoy in disputed region (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/russia_georgia_ossetia)

Wed Jul 7, 3:52 AM ET Add World - AFP to My Yahoo!

MOSCOW (AFP) - Georgian troops intercepted a Russian convoy with arms on board headed for the disputed region of South Ossetia in a move likely to escalate tensions between Tbilisi and Moscow, Russian and Georgian media said.

A Russian defense ministry official called the incident Tuesday night a "provocation".

The interception represented a show of force by Georgia's new leadership, which is trying to win control over a territory that has proclaimed independence from Tbilisi and allegiance to Russia.

The Russian convoy included 10 trucks, two of which were carrying weapons, including several hundred missiles and other armaments, according to Russian media.

The Georgian troops released eight of the vehicles but confiscated the two carrying arms.

Georgia has repeatedly accused Russia of sneaking contraband into South Ossetia, a charge that Moscow denies.

The dispute has complicated relations that are already strained between the two neighbors because Georgia is seeking closer ties with the United States.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has been treading a cautious line between Russia and the United States in a geopolitical game over oil pipelines and military bases in the Caucasus.

Moscow has accused Georgia of refusing to crack down on alleged extremist bases in a lawless Georgian region bordering Russia. Tbilisi in response has accepted US troops to help train soldiers and police the region.

South Ossetia declared independence from Tbilisi in the early 1990s, after using Russia's help to expel Georgian troops following a brief war that broke out in the first years after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

It has effectively become a Russian protectorate, with most of its residents holding Russian passports, using rubles and relying on Russian peacekeepers to keep Tbilisi's troops at bay.

The region wants to become part of the Russian federation, hitching up with North Ossetia, with which it shares a border.

[aartamen]

Just read the original. The story as presented above is misleading a whole lot. The absolute bulk of the confiscated arms where unguided rockets for chopper rocket pods. The convoy was a Russian military one. And they do have bases in Ossetia. The Russians claim that they had all the rights to arm their own choppers. There's even a recent agreement to that effect. Whether the Ossetians even have any helicopters of their own is unknown to me. The Georgians apparently liberated the Russian soldiers from their personal effects as well. It's definitely a scuffle. It's just not "Russians tried to smuggle illegal weapons into Ossetia and the Georgians stopped them" type of story.

[Abbyy]

aartamen is right. There was some unguided rockets for Russian helos who are part of peacekeeping forces and operating in this area from Georgia permission.
Now Georgians imply that peacekeepers have no rights to carry rockets on helicopters "because they are peacekeepers". Strange logic, didnt' it.

This provocation inspired by notorious mister Saakashvili. He forgot that contrary to Adzhariya which populated by Muslim Georgians, Southern Ossetiya populated by Ossetians who also lives in Northern Ossetiya which is bordering with Georgia part of Russian Federation. So i doubt that Ossetians are happy to join back to Georgia.

[RuSoKaR]

mms://video.rfn.ru/rtr-vesti/32200.asf really cool video.

Georgians said that there is an agreement that Russian peacekeeping forse will increase in that region, combat choppers will be added, but they are saying that it doesn't say that there anything which said that rockets will be added :cantbeli:
WTF do you want from those dumbFu***** I bet they'll also confiscate fule for those choppers.

Any ways Georgian just want to force Russian peacekeepers to fight so there will NATO which will just give eveysingle peaca of land to Georgia.

Now Georgians are reminding of Nazi Germany which is trying to get everyland which is possible over there.

Nuck them!

[He219]

Why are the Russians considered as peacekeepers in Georgia especially after the resignation of strongman leader Aslan Abashidze? If Russia doesn't recognise South Ossetian de facto independence, why are Russian troops in Georgia?

Aslo, expanding the size? That seems more than provocative.

Is'nt Russia obligated (http://missilethreat.com/news/20040304143400.html) under the so-called Istanbul Accords of 1999 (CFE treaty) to withdraw its forces from Georgia?

Just curious ... Thanks!
:D

[RuSoKaR]

delete this please.

[RuSoKaR]

PS well removing military bases is not that easy, it takes time and money...

But somehow capturing property of other country is somehow fine in the modern world as I can see :roll:

this is just a provacation, Georgians want that Russian peacekeepers would make a first shot, so there will be Russian and they will be blamed for starting a new war, and South Ocetia will be a part of Georgia again..

There is only one question left "WHO IS NEXT?"

[He219]

PS well removing military bases is not that easy, it takes time and money...

But somehow capturing property of other country is somehow fine in the modern world as I can see :roll:

No need to get all huffy.

How is South Ossetia 'other country' if Russia doesn't recognize it as independent?

If Chechnya shouldn't break away from Russia, why should South Ossetia break away from Georgia?

What about the people's voice (http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/8975702.htm)?



I am merely wanting to learn more about the situation and am not presenting these questions to start a flame war. Thanks!
:D

[RuSoKaR]

well there weren't any cases how South Osetia was invading other parts of Georgia? and as knonw there are peacekeeping forces where.

As I remember after new president finished with Adgjaria, they moved toward the South Ocetia, and at first they were trying to block all the roads which lead to the center of South Ocetia, so there will be military emabrgo.

Then Gerogia sent tank batallion over there, but tanks were not allowed in that zone by the argemeent which all 3 sides signed. there are only IFV allowed over there.

You can easy see georgian gola over there, provacate Russian peacekeeping force to start fighting, and then ofcousre NATO will be there to take lead in the peacekeeping force.

And Abhaziaja will be next after South Osetia, but if not this monster will be stopped, or soon there will be a conflict all over caucasus.

[He219]

You still havn't answerd my questions.

1) Why are Russian troops in Georgia considered Peacekeepers? Are they not obligated to withdraw under the Istanbul commitments?

2) Does Russia consider South Ossetia as an Independent State? If not, does Russia consider it a part of Georgia or Russia?

3) How can Georgia invade itself? How is it any different than Russian claims on Chechnya?

4) Russian forces being stationed in South Ossetia is not provocatie? How did the people vote?


Thanks!
:D

[aartamen]

[to Rusokar] How old are you and are you gay? I am 34 and not.

Abashidze is not a monster. He's a very cool dude, actually.

A little note - the Caucasus mountains is home to many peoples. Some of them live in independent countries that used to be a part of the Soviet Union. And some live in Russia in semi-autonomous enclaves. Those who live in independent countries are often a minority. There are many peoples, few countries*.

The Russians are the intervening force of choice in that regions. The hot-headed Caucasusians (using Caucasians seems wrong, though most of those guys are well-tanned white) keep picking fights among each other and with the Russians. Some of them want to join Russia, some want to stay in Russia, some want to leave Russia. Sometimes any of the sides in some conflict feel like it's time to slow down. They often invite the Russians (who are right there anyway) to "peacekeep". Which they do. Of course the side that likes them less feels like this is the old empirial tactics of divide and conquer all over again. But the can't hardly do anything about it. Chechens tried and suffered horrendously. There are not any more takers.

It is conceivable that Georgians think that if they manage to pick a fight with the Russians, but in a way that would make the Russians looke very bad, we will protect them. A scenario that is very unlikely. So I do not think that Georgians actually believe that they can get away with that. What they probably think is that the Russians don't have the stomach for another conflict. And of course they want Adjaria and South Ossetia back. Adjars and Ossetians have other ideas - see my point about Caucasusians above.

*The Chechens are Russian citizens, as well as the North Ossetians, but the South Ossetians are Georgian citizens, as well as, of course, the Georgians.

[He219]

In my view the Georgians want to re-unite South Ossetia mainly to consolidate Oil and natural resouces.

[earl]

Not sure if these will appear correctly for everyone

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d198/345.JPG


TAS40: SOUTH OSSETIA. JULY 7. A special forces detachment of defence ministry of South Ossetia leaves for patrolling roads leading to Georgian settlements. (Photo ITAR-TASS / Ruslan Kochiev)


http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/2/d198/344.JPG


TAS41: SOUTH OSSETIA. JULY 7. A special forces detachment of defence ministry of South Ossetia leaves for patrolling roads leading to Georgian settlements. (Photo ITAR-TASS / Ruslan Kochiev

Are these guys pro-Moscow ossetians, or pro-Tblisi government forces trying to bring the area under Georgian control? Are US SF still in Georgia training government forces?

[RuSoKaR]

You still havn't answerd my questions.

Well I am not a spechialist, but I did kinda followed the situation, but not for long :roll:


1) Why are Russian troops in Georgia considered Peacekeepers? Are they not obligated to withdraw under the Istanbul commitments?

There were some talks about withdraw from from Georgia.



2) Does Russia consider South Ossetia as an Independent State? If not, does Russia consider it a part of Georgia or Russia?

It is an independet republic, witha peacekeeping forces from Gerogia, Russia, and South Osetia. They all work together so there wouldn't be any conflicts. aka there is a commision which basicly establishing any new regulations.


3) How can Georgia invade itself? How is it any different than Russian claims on Chechnya?

ps well Chechnya was self ruled as I remember, and they were the ones who attacked Dagestan in 1999 (correct me if I am wrong)
South Osetia just live it's normal life, and most of the people do want it to be independetnt, or to be a part of North Osetia (thy are trying to do this even when they were a part of USSR)



4) Russian forces being stationed in South Ossetia is not provocatie? How did the people vote?

well they are a part of peacekeeping foce over there, and as I said before there is a comission which established them over there. (btw that is still a zone of conflict)

Also in June (maybe July don't remember) 10 of 1996 there was an agreement signed which allowed to establish an air base in South Osetia which would include combat choppers, so that ammounition was for them.


After all this conflict is just a big nonsence, so we just need to wait until Abashidze will comment what happend...

ps a couple of days before this Georgian troops confiscated Russian truck with fuel, but then they gave it back, but this here propably will not happend.



Abashidze is not a monster. He's a very cool dude, actually.
Well I really want to hear his comments on this issue. :P

btw most of South OSetian have Russian citizenship ;) but there are some Georgian villages.

[RuSoKaR]

*Update* Georgian President said that they will not let any Russian armor in the SOuth OSetia, and that they have enough forces to keep control over there, maybe this is not as bad as I thought.

But still there was a commision with which they were spose to talk BEFORE that kind of stuff happends, or that just shows that they can't communicate :cantbeli:

[Abbyy]

You still havn't answerd my questions.

1) Why are Russian troops in Georgia considered Peacekeepers? Are they not obligated to withdraw under the Istanbul commitments?


I see some misunderstanding in you. Yes there is some Russian bases still in Georgi but we're talking about Russian peacekeepers who are completely different story. They were invited more than ten years ago (before Chechnya) to help to restore peace in Abkhazia and Ossetia after wars between local population and Georgian governoment.
Ossetian conflict was almost solved during Shevarnadze ruling but Saakashvili screwed everything.


2) Does Russia consider South Ossetia as an Independent State? If not, does Russia consider it a part of Georgia or Russia?

Same status as Kosovo - no any official changes in status. Peacekeeping.



3) How can Georgia invade itself? How is it any different than Russian claims on Chechnya?


See above - it was internationally recognized peacekeeping presence with all three sides represented in peackeepers command. Now Geogians going to screw all peace efforts



4) Russian forces being stationed in South Ossetia is not provocatie? How did the people vote?
Thanks!
:D

See above.

[Abbyy]

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50915135.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A3561568ABD00A832F870CA9C30E9B9B114CE8


TKVIAVI, GEORGIA: A South Ossetian soldier stands near the poster of Russian President Vladimir Putin in Tkviavi, South Ossetia, 01 June 2004. Georgia moved some 400 troops up to the South Ossetia border 31 May 2004, as part of President Mikhail Saakashvili's bid to reunite his fractured republic. South Ossetia is seeking reunification with North Ossetia, which is now a part of Russia, and has refused closer ties with Georgia. AFP PHOTO / STR (Photo credit should read -/AFP/***** Images)

[Abbyy]

Today Georgia met consequences:
About 30 Georgian troops were captured in zone of conflict by Ossetian SF

http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/668168_20040708123603.gif

http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/668169_20040708123603.gif

http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/668170_20040708123604.gif

http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/668171_20040708123604.gif

http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/668172_20040708123605.gif

http://images.newsru.com/pict/id/large/668173_20040708123605.gif

[Herrmannek]

Troops? I think you wanted to say cops, probably from road department :)

[Abbyy]

Troops? I think you wanted to say cops, probably from road department :)

No, this is interrior ministry troops (mix of police and SF people i suppose in this case). Road department.... Ha ha. What outpost of "road department" did in the area where no any armed outposts permitted by peacekeeping forces.

Note this is mostly young strong people. Road department police looks a bit different beleive me. :)
Smth. like this one:

http://game.vsi.ru/cs/gallery/albums/userpics/10009/ace1ccd15473bfb80586fe301a40fc85.jpg

[RuSoKaR]

woot I love that picture, which propably says that there will not be second Adjaria.

btw that road police was blocking almost everything which was moving in and out of South OseTia, economic blocade.

but the who consept is that trucks were in the place where only peacekeepers were allowed still somehow 200 Georgians troops were there beated peacekeepers as they were pulling them out of the trucks, and the stole not only trucks with military equipment, but also all personal things, ah Georgia need to pay more to their military p-)