Putin Slams U.S. on Rebel Regions’ Birthday

[The Dane]

27 August 2009By Anatoly Medetsky / The Moscow Times

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on Wednesday marked the first anniversary of Russia’s recognition of the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia by saying more governments will eventually defy U.S. “pressure” and establish diplomatic ties with the tiny separatist regions.

In an event timed to the anniversary, Gazprom opened a pipeline snaking through high mountain ridges to feed gas to South Ossetia, which lifted the region’s dependence on deliveries through Georgia proper.

Russia recognized South Ossetia and Abkhazia after a brief war with Georgia last August that began when Georgian troops attempted to retake South Ossetia. None of Russia’s allies have followed suit, and Nicaragua is the only other country to recognize the regions’ independence.

Putin attributed the lack of progress to U.S. influence over the world.

“What is happening now … attests to one thing: Not many members of the international community use their sovereignty in the full sense of the word,” Putin said at a news conference. “All of them, being under pressure from one superpower, the United States, are executing its political will without penetrating — and not wishing to penetrate — the gist of the events.”

But things will change with time, he said, speaking with South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity at his side after they emerged from talks.

“I am sure that the situation will gradually change because no one wants to be a vassal,” Putin said. “Cold War-era thinking in terms of blocs will gradually dissolve in the reality of modern times.”

The statement drew skepticism from some Western analysts.

“I shouldn’t laugh, but it’s highly unlikely,” said James Nixey, a Russia and Eurasia research fellow at Britain’s Chatham House, referring to the chances of broader international recognition. “If Putin can’t convince states close to Russia … it’s a bit of a bluff.”

Putin made a point of saying Wednesday that Russia had left the issue up to its allies from the very beginning.

“We never pushed or asked anyone to recognize the independence of these two republics,” he said. “I want to stress this: We never asked anyone.”

After the talks with Kokoity, Putin said Russia, despite the global economic debacle, would not withdraw any of the funding that it had promised to South Ossetia to fill its budget and rebuild its post-war economy. Russia sent 2.8 billion rubles ($89 million) to the region’s budget this year. It set aside another 8.5 billion rubles for the reconstruction of schools, hospitals and roads this year, of which 3.5 billion rubles has been spent so far, Putin said. Russia is ready to consider more subsidies if necessary, he said.

In another sort of aid, Gazprom built a pipeline that will carry a modest 250 million cubic meters of gas to South Ossetia every year at such a height — at one point reaching 3,148 meters above sea level — that Kokoity said it belonged in the Guinness World Records. Gazprom warned that the pipeline could rupture at times because it runs through avalanche-****e areas.

Kokoity said South Ossetia was “immeasurably” thankful to Moscow and stressed that it aimed to stay independent of Russia, responding to what he described as “false rumors” to the contrary from the West.

Andrew Wood, the British ambassador to Russia from 1995 to 2000, said Russia and South Ossetia might not be one country but their leaders are now in many ways more dependent on each other than a year ago.

“It is difficult to see how that may change in such a way that South Ossetia can become a genuinely independent and widely recognized entity contributing to a more stable Caucasus,” he said.

Angela Stent, director of the Center for Eurasian, Russian and East European Studies at Georgetown University, agreed that the region would remain largely under Russia’s political and economic reign in the foreseeable future, saying it will enjoy “little room to maneuver.”

Abkhaz leader Sergei Bagapsh also expressed gratitude to Russia on Wednesday but stayed home for the celebrations.

Nixey said Abkhazia was a more viable state and required less attention from Moscow in comparison with the more economically ruined and politically unaccomplished South Ossetia.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/600/42/381352.htm

Putin is so funny :lol:

[Flamming_Python]

Putin is so funny :lol:

He's right though; those regions are already independent and have been for a long time regardless of who recognizes them; Georgia won't get them back without Russia's permission, and if the current situation persists then it's only a matter of time before the controversy over it subsides, possible political fallout of recognition falls to a minimum and nations start recognizing the break-away states independently of Western wishes.

[The Dane]

So Belarus, North Korea, etc is US vassal states ?? p-)

[Atlantic Friend]

“I am sure that the situation will gradually change because no one wants to be a vassal,” Putin said. “Cold War-era thinking in terms of blocs will gradually dissolve in the reality of modern times.”

In post-Soviet Russia, irony laughs at you.

[timetraveller]

In the the Modern world we live people in Goverments can't dictate to others whom they should be seen with ...


Interference is the cause of disharmony

[Hogan]

Another "gem" from Pouting Putin...

[Razputin]

So Belarus, North Korea, etc is US vassal states ?? p-)

Georgia and Ukraine are. So is Poland. And any other country that agreed to host and torture prisoners from the Guantanamo base.

[The Dane]

Georgia and Ukraine are. So is Poland. And any other country that agreed to host and torture prisoners from the Guantanamo base.

Ohh.. thanks for the insight. Torture is off course a bad thing.. we most improve ourselves so we can reach Russia's high humanitanian standard in that respect.

[Stormz_STA]

So is Poland. that agreed to host and torture prisoners from the Guantanamo base.

Son, you really have no idea what you're talking about. A vassal state? Just because Poland prefers the US ( a democratic and free-market economy country) to Russia dosen't make Poland a vassal.


that agreed to host and torture prisoners from the Guantanamo base.

Poland hosted Gitmo prisoners? Please. Do tou have any reliable evidence that it really happend?

[Russianlynxy]

I don't know about Poland, Poland is a relatively large European country with it's own interests.

Georgia and Ukraine for sure though. I'm not really concerned with Georgia, "good riddance", so to speak. But regarding Ukraine it is 50 million of human resources, a huge portion of Russian metalurgic and aircraft building industry, and an agricultural breadbasket. Must be won back.

[cbiwv]

I don't know about Poland, Poland is a relatively large European country with it's own interests.

Georgia and Ukraine for sure though. I'm not really concerned with Georgia, "good riddance", so to speak. But regarding Ukraine it is 50 million of human resources, a huge portion of Russian metalurgic and aircraft building industry, and an agricultural breadbasket. Must be won back.

I think Russia needs Ukraine to truly be a power.

[Stormz_STA]

Must be won back.

What do you mean by that?

[The Dane]

I don't know about Poland, Poland is a relatively large European country with it's own interests.

Georgia and Ukraine for sure though. I'm not really concerned with Georgia, "good riddance", so to speak. But regarding Ukraine it is 50 million of human resources, a huge portion of Russian metalurgic and aircraft building industry, and an agricultural breadbasket. Must be won back.

Isn't that cold war era thinking .. I thought Russia had moved on ;)

[Razputin]

Ohh.. thanks for the insight. Torture is off course a bad thing.. we most improve ourselves so we can reach Russia's high humanitanian standard in that respect.

We never claimed the moral superiority and the US and the West did. It is harder to do so after the Abu Graib scandal, mounting civilian casualties in Afghanistan, torture of Guantanamo prisoners, among many other things. I am not saying it is wrong I am just saying the US is in no position to claim moral superiority.

[Russianlynxy]

What do you mean by that?

Obviously through political means. Any war between Russia and Ukraine is ludicrous thinking - everyone knows it will ignite a civil war in Ukraine simultaneously.

A reconfiguration into a joint federative state or at least a commonwealth. Russia lost alot of it's infrastructure and industry which is crucial to Russia. The Orange Revolution was ignited to prevent this from happening. Two states that have a long history together are artificially being separated.

This has nothing to do with Cold-War era thinking or bringing back the USSR, has everything to do with the future and development of both countries.

January elections will decide a lot..I think. Yuschenko is sort of a lame duck in Ukraine lately.

Why do you think Russia is concerned with Ukraine's NATO membership? Not because of NATO bases, but because it seals the deal in terms of tearing the two countries apart from one another. permanently.

[Razputin]

Isn't that cold war era thinking .. I thought Russia had moved on ;)

Many Ukrainians feel they should be reunited with Russia or at least that Ukraine should not pursue a policy similar to that of Georgia - a blind ignorance of any geopolitical realities and the active pursual of policies that lead to confrontation with Russia. Which is what Yuschenko's govt is doing and maybe that is why Yuschenko's rating is at 3%.

[The Dane]

Well.. the tread is not about moral, torture, Afghanistan or what ever.
But about Putin's Americafobia.. and the fact that most of the world disagrees with Russia on S.O. and Abkasia.

[Russianlynxy]

Well.. the tread is not about moral, torture, Afghanistan or what ever.
But about Putin's Americafobia.. and the fact that most of the world disagrees with Russia on S.O. and Abkasia.

And yet your "most of the world" applauded Kosovo.

Funny thing is this new world order...p-)

[Razputin]

Well.. the tread is not about moral, torture, Afghanistan or what ever.
But about Putin's Americafobia.. and the fact that most of the world disagrees with Russia on S.O. and Abkasia.

Most of the world can be said to have anti-US sentiment as well))

This thread is about Putin and Russia bashing more than anything else. I rest my case...

[VAMAN]

Well.. the tread is not about moral, torture, Afghanistan or what ever.
But about Putin's Americafobia.. and the fact that most of the world disagrees with Russia on S.O. and Abkasia.
American media doesn't represent the whole world. :bash:

[widi243]

American media doesn't represent the whole world. :bash:
wait who's talking that they represent??

[The Dane]

And yet your "most of the world" applauded Kosovo.

Funny thing is this new world order...p-)

Why do you think that Kosovo gets recognized while S.Osstia and Abkasia does not ?

[The Dane]

American media doesn't represent the whole world. :bash:

Wat ??
What has American media to do with this??

[Russianlynxy]

Why do you think that Kosovo gets recognized while S.Osstia and Abkasia does not ?

Consensus of geopolitical interests, nothing more.

[VAMAN]

Wat ??
What has American media to do with this??
Then how come you came out with this thinking? Explain how many countries consist of most of the world according to you?


But about Putin's Americafobia.. and the fact that most of the world disagrees with Russia on S.O. and Abkasia.
One fine day you read about evil Russia trying to molest good boy Georgia the ally of America. And you formed the opinion that most of the world think alike you? I say you're wrong.

[Russianlynxy]

One fine day you read about evil Russia trying to molest good boy Georgia the ally of America. And you formed the opinion that most of the world think alike you? I say you're wrong.

You're right. Jeez, half of the world didn't even know where Georgia was before 08.08.08... let alone South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

[The Dane]

So it's ignorance and lack of insight that's cause of that no other than Niguragua have joined Russia in recongnizing the two?

You think politicians around the world form their opinion on foreign policy by watching American news? :)

[TR1]

Most of the world's politicians had never heard of Ossetia, nor known anything about it before this, so your point is moot Danskeren.

[Stormz_STA]

Most of the world's politicians had never heard of Ossetia, nor known anything about it before this

And how do you know that?

[The Dane]

Most of the world's politicians had never heard of Ossetia, nor known anything about it before this, so your point is moot Danskeren.

I think your wrong.. At least European politicians have known about the problems in Caucasus for many years.. and the potentional conflicts as well.

[TR1]

And how do you know that?
Because I have heard what they have to say of the situation in the Kavkaz, and it is 90% nonsense. It is a messy region, honestly unless you have lived there it is hard to get real feel/mindset of the people and situation.

[Stormz_STA]

Because I have heard what they have to say of the situation in the Kavkaz, and it is 90% nonsense. It is a messy region, honestly unless you have lived there it is hard to get real feel/mindset of the people and situation.

You've heard what most of the world's politicians have to say about that? Really? REALLY???

[Razputin]

And how do you know that?

Even if they heard they never cared much for it)) Kosovo set a precedent for S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. Georgians tried to do to S. Ossetians what Serbs wanted to do to Albanians in Kosovo -- kill 'em all)) I remember NATO bombed Serbia like there was no tomorrow.. Many Serbs are still dying of various cancers in areas where uranium tipped armaments were used. So Georgia had it easy comapred to Serbs. Russia should have destroyed whatever military capability and infrasdtructure they had completely but alas...

[TR1]

You've heard what most of the world's politicians have to say about that? Really? REALLY???
The ones that have gone public with statements about it, yes.

[Stormz_STA]

The ones that have gone public with statements about it, yes.

So you don't know what most of the world's politicians think about the whole issue.
;)

[TR1]

So you don't know what most of the world's politicians think about the whole issue.
;)
How witty of you. Give yourself a pat on the back. The response was to Danskeren, who was mentioning how no one aside from Nicaragua and Russia has recognized the regions. As I said, most of the statements made by other nations on the issue were nonsense.

[Stormz_STA]

How witty of you. Give yourself a pat on the back.

Thank you, I will.

[VAMAN]

I think your wrong.. At least European politicians have known about the problems in Caucasus for many years.. and the potentional conflicts as well.
Danskeren - First you said most of the world ---> then you came down to politicians around the world ---> now you have scaled down to European politicians.

But you haven't yet answered my question yet. How many countries consist of most of the world according to you?



You think politicians around the world form their opinion on foreign policy by watching American news? :)
I never knew that politicians around the world have formed foreign policies on Georgia-Abkhazia issue. :roll:

As Razputin rightly said most politicians the world over don't even care about it.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Is the article serious, or is it from The Onion? Am I the only one who finds a great deal of humor in the fact that Putin talks about how bad it is for the US to be exerting it's influence and making "vassals" out of states...and how those states have lost their sovereignty as a result...and yet at the same time, his government gives billions of dollars in "aid" to South Ossetia and builds them pipelines? No? Nobody else?

[The Dane]

Even if they heard they never cared much for it)) Kosovo set a precedent for S. Ossetia and Abkhazia. Georgians tried to do to S. Ossetians what Serbs wanted to do to Albanians in Kosovo -- kill 'em all)) I remember NATO bombed Serbia like there was no tomorrow.. Many Serbs are still dying of various cancers in areas where uranium tipped armaments were used. So Georgia had it easy comapred to Serbs. Russia should have destroyed whatever military capability and infrasdtructure they had completely but alas...

Ohh yeah.. the genocide in S.Ossetia :roll: forgot about that!
I think there's a bit of a difference when a huge organisation consisting of more than 20 countries agrees to interveen in a conflict compared to when one country does it without seeking any international support for it.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

So Georgia had it easy comapred to Serbs. Russia should have destroyed whatever military capability and infrasdtructure they had completely but alas...I don't think that would have helped Russia's situation. Essentially Russia got everything they wanted out of the conflict, at least short-term. Long-term gains will depend a lot on how Russia handles the post-conflict situation. Relating back to the topic at hand, it seems to me that Putin isn't handling it well.

If he wants South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be recognized by the world, he'll have to use diplomacy versus threats verbal and non-verbal.

His words are sure to find approval to a captive audience, but winning over countries not directly influenced by Russia will prove more difficult.

In my opinion the world is less anti-Russian than many Russians seem to think. Georgian guilt in the 080808 war was a hot topic in the weeks following the conflict and Russia received some prominent support from Europe in particular, which generally has a more realistic view of politics than those nations obsessed by necesssity with playing geopolitical chess.

Nonetheless, Russian determination to push independence for the regions does conjure up trust-shaking images of Russian aggression, particularly considering the open questions of eastern Ukraine and the Crimea, which although not directly related are automatically associated with the Ossetian and Abkhazian questions.

Europe and perhaps even Eastern Europe in particular don't trust Russian intentions with her neighbors and given Russia's post-WWII track record, it is understandably so.

Such is the reality of power politics.

[The Dane]

Danskeren - First you said most of the world ---> then you came down to politicians around the world ---> now you have scaled down to European politicians.

But you haven't yet answered my question yet. How many countries consist of most of the world according to you?



The world minus Russia and Niguragua ;)

[TR1]

Ohh yeah.. the genocide in S.Ossetia :roll: forgot about that!
I think there's a bit of a difference when a huge organisation consisting of more than 20 countries agrees to interveen in a conflict compared to when one country does it without seeking any international support for it.
Thank god Russia acted without international support, had it waited for this pathetic approval, Ossetia would have been cleansed of half of its population, I didn't mean necessarily killed, but nonetheless.

[The Dane]

Is the article serious, or is it from The Onion? Am I the only one who finds a great deal of humor in the fact that Putin talks about how bad it is for the US to be exerting it's influence and making "vassals" out of states...and how those states have lost their sovereignty as a result...and yet at the same time, his government gives billions of dollars in "aid" to South Ossetia and builds them pipelines? No? Nobody else?

I find it hilarious! :lol:

[Razputin]

I don't think that would have helped Russia's situation. Essentially Russia got everything they wanted out of the conflict, at least short-term. Long-term gains will depend a lot on how Russia handles the post-conflict situation. Relating back to the topic at hand, it seems to me that Putin isn't handling it well.

If he wants South Ossetia and Abkhazia to be recognized by the world, he'll have to use diplomacy versus threats verbal and non-verbal.

His words are sure to find approval to a captive audience, but winning over countries not directly influenced by Russia will prove more difficult.

In my opinion the world is less anti-Russian than many Russians seem to think. Georgian guilt in the 080808 war was a hot topic in the weeks following the conflict and Russia received some prominent support from Europe in particular, which generally has a more realistic view of politics than those nations obsessed by necesssity with playing geopolitical chess.

Nonetheless, Russian determination to push independence for the regions does conjure up trust-shaking images of Russian aggression, particularly considering the open questions of eastern Ukraine and the Crimea, which although not directly related are automatically associated with the Ossetian and Abkhazian questions.

Europe and perhaps even Eastern Europe in particular don't trust Russian intentions with her neighbors and given Russia's post-WWII track record, it is understandably so.

Such is the reality of power politics.

Concur. But I think you overestimate how much Russia cares about others recognizing S. Ossetia's or Abkhazia 's independence)

[Razputin]

The world minus Russia and Niguragua ;)

Oh yeah the coalition of the willing which includes countries like Tanzania )

[The Dane]

Thank god Russia acted without international support, had it waited for this pathetic approval, Ossetia would have been cleansed of half of its population, I didn't mean necessarily killed, but nonetheless.

Pure speculation.. I find it highly unlikely.

[TR1]

Pure speculation.. I find it highly unlikely.
In that case, you are not really connected with the reality on the ground. Just as post war a bunch of Georgians were kicked out by Ossetians, the exact opposite would have happened had Russia sat by idly.

[Razputin]

Ohh yeah.. the genocide in S.Ossetia :roll: forgot about that!
I think there's a bit of a difference when a huge organisation consisting of more than 20 countries agrees to interveen in a conflict compared to when one country does it without seeking any international support for it.

The US is the dominant force in that group. Everyone else just follows blindly whatever US says they should do. Even when the population in those countries is firmly against the policies being pursued. The NATO deployment in Afghanistan is a perfect case in point. Everyone is forced into sending soldiers overseas just because US wants them to. 19 countries just follow the lead. Which of these 19 countries actually have any real interests in that reagion of the world?

[The Dane]

The US is the dominant force in that group. Everyone else just follows blindly whatever US says they should do. Even when the population in those countries is firmly against the policies being pursued. The NATO deployment in Afghanistan is a perfect case in point. Everyone is forced into sending soldiers overseas just because US wants them to. 19 countries just follow the lead. Which of these 19 countries actually have any real interests in that reagion of the world?

Okay.. what ever dude :roll:

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Concur. But I think you overestimate how much Russia cares about others recognizing S. Ossetia's or Abkhazia 's independence)Perhaps, but Russia does have interest in the world recognizing that Georgia doesn't have a say in the future of those regions. For whatever reason, Russia has keen interest in controlling the regions and I don't believe it is only because of an attack on their peacekeepers or the safety of the local populace.

Diplomatically, Russia has to keep Georgia from gaining too much support should they try to get those regions back. It may seem far-fetched now and I think Georgia understood they won't be able to manage it militarily, but they could use other methods.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

The US is the dominant force in that group. Everyone else just follows blindly whatever US says they should do. Even when the population in those countries is firmly against the policies being pursued. The NATO deployment in Afghanistan is a perfect case in point. Everyone is forced into sending soldiers overseas just because US wants them to. 19 countries just follow the lead. Which of these 19 countries actually have any real interests in that reagion of the world?Read the news in Europe, there are debates on just this subject weekly if not daily and there are solid arguments for European participation there. The impetus for the NATO effort in Afghanistan certainly came from the US, but the Europeans (for the most part) realize why they are there.

Whether or not the effort has any chance of success is another debate entirely however.

[Razputin]

Perhaps, but Russia does have interest in the world recognizing that Georgia doesn't have a say in the future of those regions. For whatever reason, Russia has keen interest in controlling the regions and I don't believe it is only because of an attack on their peacekeepers or the safety of the local populace.

Diplomatically, Russia has to keep Georgia from gaining too much support should they try to get those regions back. It may seem far-fetched now and I think Georgia understood they won't be able to manage it militarily, but they could use other methods.

Look at the map. Those areas are not easily accessible from North Caucasus. By creating military bases in Abkhazia and South Ossetia Russia eastablishes firm foothold in that part of Caucasus and can now firmly project power in the Caspian region.

[Razputin]

Read the news in Europe, there are debates on just this subject weekly if not daily and there are solid arguments for European participation there. The impetus for the NATO effort in Afghanistan certainly came from the US, but the Europeans (for the most part) realize why they are there.

Whether or not the effort has any chance of success is another debate entirely however.

The public in those countries tends to disagree with that. Just check the polls. And with casualties mounting there will be even less public support.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

The public in those countries tends to disagree with that. Just check the polls. And with casualties mounting there will be even less public support.Governments and general public are often in disagreement... the public can vote out the government if they disapprove. Among the major contributers support is still there, even if shaky at times.

But yeah, if casualties continue to mount, especially in those nations who aren't accustomed to taking casualties, a lot of the support will dry up.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Look at the map. Those areas are not easily accessible from North Caucasus. By creating military bases in Abkhazia and South Ossetia Russia eastablishes firm foothold in that part of Caucasus and can now firmly project power in the Caspian region.I thought it was all about humanitarian help for the poor people of Ossetia and Abkhazia... p-)

Just those kind of intentions are what scares people about Russian maneuvering. I agree it is realism, but you can't expect people outside of Russia to be happy about it.

[Razputin]

I thought it was all about humanitarian help for the poor people of Ossetia and Abkhazia... p-)

that too)))

[Meatwad]

Is the article serious, or is it from The Onion? Am I the only one who finds a great deal of humor in the fact that Putin talks about how bad it is for the US to be exerting it's influence and making "vassals" out of states...and how those states have lost their sovereignty as a result...and yet at the same time, his government gives billions of dollars in "aid" to South Ossetia and builds them pipelines? No? Nobody else?

I fail to see the comparison. About Russian funds and supplies remember that S. Ossetia was ravaged by a war just a year ago. I think they need all the help they can get, it will take many years to rebuild the damage that was done. We in the West know it was Georgia that kicked off this whole thing in the first place, despite this we won't be offering any help to rebuild S. Ossetia.

[Satorius]

I don't know about Poland, Poland is a relatively large European country with it's own interests.


Ukraine is the second largest European country with its own interstes as well.




But regarding Ukraine it is 50 million of human resources, a huge portion of Russian metalurgic and aircraft building industry, and an agricultural breadbasket.

There are no Russian metalurgic and aircraft building industry in Ukraine. You mistake Soviet for Russian.



Must be won back.Don't masturbate.

[Satorius]

Many Ukrainians feel they should be reunited with Russia or at least that Ukraine should not pursue a policy similar to that of Georgia - a blind ignorance of any geopolitical realities and the active pursual of policies that lead to confrontation with Russia.

The geopolitical realities are that Russian is the raw material supplier of the West with the GDP less than the one of Italy, with collapsing infrastructure and quickly declining population. Guys, you will be living in Great China one day.



Which is what Yuschenko's govt is doing and maybe that is why Yuschenko's rating is at 3%.
There is no Yushchenko's government. There is Timoshenko's government that is in opposition to Yushchenko.

[Russianlynxy]

There is no Yushchenko's government. There is no Timoshenko's government that is in opposition to Yushchenko.

Glad to see the Banderlog is back, we missed you.
We will see what happens when elections hit, and what decisions the Ukrainian people will make in face of their sold-off, corrupt, and economically crumbling Ukraine :roll:

Something makes me doubt Ukraine will vote for the same UNA-UNSO-supported "annonisty"


Last times I was in Kiev I could see plenty of foreigners trying to 'score'. And the Passazh restraunts were filled with Ukrainian girls dining with nasty old perverts. I was disgusted.

*** tourism is fvcking despicable. And it's a big problem. Rich Europeans like Slavic girls, fact.

[Razputin]

Ukraine is the second largest European country with its own interstes as well.




There are no Russian metalurgic and aircraft building industry in Ukraine. You mistake Soviet for Russian.


Don't masturbate.

He ment investments by russian businessmen. There are plenty.

Ukraine does not have any interests whatsoever it appears to me sometimes other than being a primary destination for *** tourism. Which is rather unfortunate. Last times I was in Kiev I could see plenty of foreigners trying to 'score'. And the Passazh restraunts were filled with Ukrainian girls dining with nasty old perverts. I was disgusted.

[Sashko]

Ohh yeah.. the genocide in S.Ossetia :roll: forgot about that!
I think there's a bit of a difference when a huge organisation consisting of more than 20 countries agrees to interveen in a conflict compared to when one country does it without seeking any international support for it.


So, if I bring 19 well-respected friends with money and a lawyer to beat up one guy that noone likes, instead of doing it one on one, it makes it more legit?

[Frutzel]

Ohh yeah.. the genocide in S.Ossetia :roll: forgot about that!
I think there's a bit of a difference when a huge organisation consisting of more than 20 countries agrees to interveen in a conflict compared to when one country does it without seeking any international support for it.

And everybodys decision has as much weight as any other member. Great humour Faibrass. Stop being a hypocrite:roll:

[VAMAN]

The world minus Russia and Niguragua ;)
Nicaragua has it's own reasons to recognize Abkhazia. U.S. have a history of interfering with Nicaragua's affairs. Politicians in Nicaragua know what is bothering U.S. government and media when Georgia-Abkhazia conflict happened.



You think politicians around the world form their opinion on foreign policy by watching American news? :)
Politicians in Nicaragua do (time to answer your earlier question)

[The Dane]

And everybodys decision has as much weight as any other member. Great humour Faibrass. Stop being a hypocrite:roll:

Stop being an idiot :roll:

[Satorius]

As to the recognition of S. Ossetia and Abkhazia as independant states. These territories don't even want to have formal attributes of states. All their local populations have the citizenship of the neighbouring state, they openly delelgated the duties to guard their borders to Russian frontier guards, their governments are made up of Russian officers/bureaucrats assigned from the RF. My point is that if one recognizes the S. Ossetia and Abkhazia as independant states one should recognize all the subjects of Russian federation as independant states as well because there is no difference in their real status.

[Frutzel]

Stop being an idiot :roll:

Nice counter Fairbrass but you doesn't need to be a genius to know how decisions are made in this organisation. But sure every country has the same weight:roll:

[Satorius]

He ment investments by russian businessmen. There are plenty.

All the metalurgic industry is controlled by local eastern Ukrainian business groups. Russian businessman do not own any aircraft industry plants either.



Ukraine does not have any interests whatsoever it appears to me sometimes other than being a primary destination for *** tourism.

Nothing can really compete with Russia in this field.


Which is rather unfortunate. Last times I was in Kiev I could see plenty of foreigners trying to 'score'. And the Passazh restraunts were filled with Ukrainian girls dining with nasty old perverts. I was disgusted.

So you should keep away from this whorehouse Ukraine. You don't need it in Russia. It will just infect Russians with diseases and your life will be even more miserable than it is now.

[TR1]

Russian buisness means a lot to Ukranian aviation industry, one would have to be blind to ignore that. The An-148 program, the only one of that scale in Ukraine for example, would be nowhere if it were not for Russia.

"It will just infect Russians with diseases and your life will be even more miserable than it is now."
What a pathetic, arrogant statement. Thanks for showing us that you has some serious inadequacies in your life....

[Satorius]

Glad to see the Banderlog is back, we missed you.
We will see what happens when elections hit, and what decisions the Ukrainian people will make in face of their sold-off, corrupt, and economically crumbling Ukraine :roll:

Hi, Putinoid. It does not really matter whom they elect as all the current mainstream politicians are not able to solve the necessary problems. Perhaps, Yanukovich will be elected, Russian Mass media will just shut up and you will automatically think that everything is OK in Ukraine. All these attributes like sold-off, corrupt, and economically crumbling fit present-day Russia as much as present-day Ukraine.

[Satorius]

Russian buisness means a lot to Ukranian aviation industry, one would have to be blind to ignore that. The An-148 program, the only one of that scale in Ukraine for example, would be nowhere if it were not for Russia.

It is not owned. You mistake cooperation for ownership.


"It will just infect Russians with diseases and your life will be even more miserable than it is now."
What a pathetic, arrogant statement. Thanks for showing us that you has some serious inadequacies in your life....Razputin just claimed that Ukraine wants to be only a whore-house. So following Razputin's logic any normal state should keep away from Ukraine then

[Hast2]

Razputin just claimed that Ukraine wants to be only a whore-house. So following Razputin's logic any normal state should keep away from Ukraine then

There's no need to be an idiot just because someone is.

[LineDoggie]

Stop being an idiot :roll: Good luck on that , look what your dealing with......

[Satorius]

Nicaragua has it's own reasons to recognize Abkhazia. U.S. have a history of interfering with Nicaragua's affairs. Politicians in Nicaragua know what is bothering U.S. government and media when Georgia-Abkhazia conflict happened.


Politicians in Nicaragua do (time to answer your earlier question)


Actually Nicaraguan comarades in power are former friends of the USSR. Perhaps they counted on some economic-financial aid from Moscow in exchange for politcal statements like in old, good times. But they are sure to receive none. The times of Soviet communist generosity sank into oblivion long ago.

[hogdriver]

The US is the dominant force in that group. Everyone else just follows blindly whatever US says they should do. Even when the population in those countries is firmly against the policies being pursued. The NATO deployment in Afghanistan is a perfect case in point. Everyone is forced into sending soldiers overseas just because US wants them to. 19 countries just follow the lead. Which of these 19 countries actually have any real interests in that reagion of the world?

No one, but it's a signal to the terrorists that terrorism like 911 doesn't work. The taliban-government and his supporters has been kicked out and 19 countries are shooting at them every day and every day for years:)

[megjur]

Stop being an idiot :roll:

He can't help it. It seems our Russian friends simply cannot control themselves. Whenever a thread is started that even remotley critcizes anything Russian they run, foaming at the mouth to defend the Motherland. It gets pretty funny somethimes.

[Frutzel]

He can't help it. It seems our Russian friends simply cannot control themselves. Whenever a thread is started that even remotley critcizes anything Russian they run, foaming at the mouth to defend the Motherland. It gets pretty funny somethimes.

Did you even read what this was about? I was talking about the "organisation" Danskeren mentionend. It seems he believes that they sit at the table and eveybody has the right to make the decision. NATO is everything but not a balanced deciding organ. Btw nothing to see here, except some **** comment you just quoted

[Razputin]

No one, but it's a signal to the terrorists that terrorism like 911 doesn't work. The taliban-government and his supporters has been kicked out and 19 countries are shooting at them every day and every day for years:)

9/11 unfortunately has a lot more to do with wahhabism implicitly supported by Saudi Arabia's oil wealth than Pashtun opium farmers))

[hogdriver]

9/11 unfortunately has a lot more to do with wahhabism implicitly supported by Saudi Arabia's oil wealth than Pashtun opium farmers))

ooww...Saudi Arabia is behind the 911..:roll:

[[ KOOSHAB ]]

ooww...Saudi Arabia is behind the 911..:roll:

To an extent, yes.

[TR1]

He can't help it. It seems our Russophobic friends simply cannot control themselves. Whenever a thread is started that even remotley mentions anything Russian they run, foaming at the mouth. It gets pretty funny somethimes.
Fixed for you.

[lauris71]

The US is the dominant force in that group. Everyone else just follows blindly whatever US says they should do. Even when the population in those countries is firmly against the policies being pursued. The NATO deployment in Afghanistan is a perfect case in point. Everyone is forced into sending soldiers overseas just because US wants them to. 19 countries just follow the lead. Which of these 19 countries actually have any real interests in that reagion of the world?
Some states from "New Europe" maybe are whoring for US support, but I think most of Europeans are completely capable to decide independently.
The reason is simply, that occasional trade disputes nonwithstanding, US and European economic interests mostly overlap. While Europe probably has not enough motivation to secure its own presence in Cenral Asia (Afganistan), they very much prefer US to Russia/China/Iran (and probably India too). So they give some support, but avoiding being too intensely involved.
But for the some reason I'd not consider their collective opinion to somehow be more legitimate than Russian one. The are in similar geopolitical situation, have similar interests and it is very natural to act together. Russia is in completely different situation and has to act accordingly.

[brainplay]

Many Serbs are still dying of various cancers in areas where uranium tipped armaments were used.

roflrofl Omg that was funny. I mean for a second I thought you were being serious with that debunked crap.


So Georgia had it easy comapred to Serbs. Russia should have destroyed whatever military capability and infrasdtructure they had completely but alas...

And that would have risked killing off any political credibility they had over the conflict as well as scaring other satellite states to put their NATO applications as fast as possible.


In my opinion the world is less anti-Russian than many Russians seem to think. Georgian guilt in the 080808 war was a hot topic in the weeks following the conflict and Russia received some prominent support from Europe in particular, which generally has a more realistic view of politics than those nations obsessed by necesssity with playing geopolitical chess.

If you watch from the sidelines how do they have a more realistic view? That sounds an alot more like hindsight than realistic view. A bench warmer is not a player and doesn't have a realistic view. Utopian or idealistic is a better adjective for them.

[miguelencanarias]

http://www.step.es/personales/jlarena/russiastrong.jpg

[Razputin]

ooww...Saudi Arabia is behind the 911..:roll:

Most of the hijackers were Saudi.. I am not saying it is behind those attacks but a lot of the money is flowing to terrosrists from sponsors in Saudi Arabia.. SA is home to some of the most extreme radical islam - Wahabiism.

[Razputin]

roflrofl Omg that was funny. I mean for a second I thought you were being serious with that debunked crap.



And that would have risked killing off any political credibility they had over the conflict as well as scaring other satellite states to put their NATO applications as fast as possible.



If you watch from the sidelines how do they have a more realistic view? That sounds an alot more like hindsight than realistic view. A bench warmer is not a player and doesn't have a realistic view. Utopian or idealistic is a better adjective for them.

We have Germany and France now to make sure no new unstable regimes a la Saakashvili's join NATO))

[Razputin]

roflrofl Omg that was funny. I mean for a second I thought you were being serious with that debunked crap.



.

Nothing funny to those who are dying.

BTW I was always wondering how could Japanese ever forgive the US for bombing civilian population of Hershima and Nagasaki given that even by very conservative estimates the nuclear bombing has been responsible for over 1000000 deaths linked to oncological ilnesses over the last 65 years)) Or is that some debunked crap as well?

[Razputin]

http://www.step.es/personales/jlarena/russiastrong.jpg

When there are no intelligent counterarguments to provide people tend to post silly pictures and degrade discussion to personal insults... Is that the best you can do? ))

[Razputin]

Some states from "New Europe" maybe are whoring for US support, but I think most of Europeans are completely capable to decide independently.
The reason is simply, that occasional trade disputes nonwithstanding, US and European economic interests mostly overlap. While Europe probably has not enough motivation to secure its own presence in Cenral Asia (Afganistan), they very much prefer US to Russia/China/Iran (and probably India too). So they give some support, but avoiding being too intensely involved.
But for the some reason I'd not consider their collective opinion to somehow be more legitimate than Russian one. The are in similar geopolitical situation, have similar interests and it is very natural to act together. Russia is in completely different situation and has to act accordingly.

They absolutely are capable of that but they do not do it. They just go along with what US wants them to do. Like trying to shove Turkey EU membership down Europeans throat)))

[miguelencanarias]

When there are no intelligent counterarguments to provide people tend to post silly pictures and degrade discussion to personal insults... Is that the best you can do? ))Talking of silly pictures: nice choice of avatar there, champ. By the way: I wasn't thinking of you when I posted the pic. Now I am.

[Russianlynxy]

Talking of silly pictures: nice choice of avatar there, champ. By the way: I wasn't thinking of you when I posted the pic. Now I am.

Bet you don't even know who that is. Seriously, your attempt at trying to be funny is poor at best.

[miguelencanarias]

Bet you don't even know who that is. Seriously, your attempt at trying to be funny is poor at best.Looks like Rasputin to me, which tells me a lot about you. Seriously, your attempt at trying to be taken seriously is poor at best. Now let it go.

[TR1]

Looks like Rasputin to me, which tells me a lot about you. Seriously, your attempt at trying to be taken seriously is poor at best. Now let it go.
WHat is your purpose in this thread, aside from immature and un-original flaming?

[Razputin]

Talking of silly pictures: nice choice of avatar there, champ. By the way: I wasn't thinking of you when I posted the pic. Now I am.

At least other champs on this site try to be creative with their avatars) You obviously are not familiar with that concept since you posted your picture (i assume it's you)

[Razputin]

Looks like Rasputin to me, which tells me a lot about you. Seriously, your attempt at trying to be taken seriously is poor at best. Now let it go.

I would love to hear your deep psychological insight into what the Rasputin avatar is suppose to mean)) but that is atopic for another thread

[Difool]

WHat is your purpose in this thread, aside from immature and un-original flaming?
That's exactly the purpose.

[hogdriver]

Most of the hijackers were Saudi.. I am not saying it is behind those attacks but a lot of the money is flowing to terrosrists from sponsors in Saudi Arabia.. SA is home to some of the most extreme radical islam - Wahabiism.

Yes, but the SA government is/was not behind the 911, the Afghanistan-government (Taliban) was! And I am proud to live in a NATO-land because as you can see that government attaqued a NATO member and 19 countries still shooting what is left of them and/or those supporters and already for 8 years and they keep shooting every day.:)

[hogdriver]

Nothing funny to those who are dying.

BTW I was always wondering how could Japanese ever forgive the US for bombing civilian population of Hershima and Nagasaki given that even by very conservative estimates the nuclear bombing has been responsible for over 1000000 deaths linked to oncological ilnesses over the last 65 years)) Or is that some debunked crap as well?

They started the war and the civilians stood behind that government and they wouldn't surrender.

[Holycrusader]

R-word should be prohibited on this forum... Too many emotions...

[sarhat]

a letter

"Dear Mr Saakashwili,
We, people of Astrashnskiy region, ask you: would you please bomb us a little, so we will get money for reconstruction from federal budget."

joke

[sarhat]

I thought it was all about humanitarian help for the poor people of Ossetia and Abkhazia... p-)



big US millitary base in Kosovo in centre of EU it's ok, of course, for everyone.

[lightfire]

a letter

"Dear Mr Saakashwili,
We, people of Astrashnskiy region, ask you: would you please bomb us a little, so we will get money for reconstruction from federal budget."

joke

bad idea, a lot of money for reconstruction of S.Ossetia has simply vanished. The ones who got the money would be interested Saaka to make his stunt again though..

[TR1]

bad idea, a lot of money for reconstruction of S.Ossetia has simply vanished. The ones who got the money would be interested Saaka to make his stunt again though..
I am sure you have specific proof and figures for all the money that "disappeared".

[The Dane]

I am sure you have specific proof and figures for all the money that "disappeared".

Would it surprise you if it's real?
Not me.. i think corruption is just a big a problem as it is in Russia and proberly alot worse now given the war only a year ago.

[sarhat]

Would it surprise you if it's real?
Not me.. i think corruption is just a big a problem as it is in Russia and proberly alot worse now given the war only a year ago.

Corruption was always in Russia.
Big country, logistic&communication problems.

It is good described in Gogol's novels (nineteenth century)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Gogol

[Flamming_Python]

Nonetheless, Russian determination to push independence for the regions does conjure up trust-shaking images of Russian aggression, particularly considering the open questions of eastern Ukraine and the Crimea, which although not directly related are automatically associated with the Ossetian and Abkhazian questions.

Europe and perhaps even Eastern Europe in particular don't trust Russian intentions with her neighbors and given Russia's post-WWII track record, it is understandably so.

Such is the reality of power politics.

WTF? It was the West that started this whole thing with Kosovo. And while we're on the subject, who exists to counter illegal declarations of independence for regions, and counter Western aggression in the Middle East and Eastern Europe apart from Russia? It's all well, good and easy for many Poles, Czechs, etc.. to 'disagree with the independence of Kosovo', give moral support to their 'Serb brothers', while putting no pressure on their own governments which are among the very instigators of this action; yet those very same Eastern Europeans are the first to jump on Russia's throat when it does the same thing in response to a Western-backed invasion. In fact it was Russia which was taking action and leading the campaign against Kosovo's independence, and had it succeeded than we could have avoided many of the problems that have appeared in the last year; perhaps even the Georgian war could have been avoided.

If you're gonna play hardline, than I could just as easily say that much of Latin America and the Middle East doesn't trust America; and for those reasons Russia should base Iskanders in Syria and open airbases in Venzuela and Cuba. But that would be judged as a huge escalation and rightly so, launch an arms race that not Russia not America can afford, etc... So actually trust has little to do with anything when it comes to stability and geo-politics.

The world needs Russia as a counter-balance to America; China is obviously content to sit and wait while it is slowly encircled by hostile military forces and tactic support is given to its seperatist movements; but Russia is in the position to fight back and rightly so.

[lightfire]

I am sure you have specific proof and figures for all the money that "disappeared".

The citizens of SO were quoted in few Russian media articles. You'd rush to call that rumors, provocations against the pure motherland, but it's hard to deny facts of massive corruption in Russia. Chechnya was a good example (maybe still could be). I haven't made an investigation, questioned Russian officials etc. on that matter, if that is what you insist to make a point valid. Surprisingly, you and your crew would always rush to make opposite claims without any proofs.

[dragonunion]

The citizens of SO were quoted in few Russian media articles. You'd rush to call that rumors, provocations against the pure motherland, but it's hard to deny facts of massive corruption in Russia. Chechnya was a good example (maybe still could be). I haven't made an investigation, questioned Russian officials etc. on that matter, if that is what you insist to make a point valid. Surprisingly, you and your crew would always rush to make opposite claims without any proofs.
Give the proofs for your claims first, then you can ask people to show their proofs.

[Derbedeu]

The world needs Russia as a counter-balance to America

No not, really. Besides, if you want to be a counter-balance to a superpower, you have to be a superpower yourself. Russia no longer is a superpower.

[Russianlynxy]

No not, really. Besides, if you want to be a counter-balance to a superpower, you have to be a superpower yourself. Russia no longer is a superpower.

No but it is a continental power, therefore it can balance out issues having to deal with it's own backyard and the superpower's interests in it.

[widi243]

No but it is a continental power, therefore it can balance out issues having to deal with it's own backyard and the superpower's interests in it.

What do you mean as continental power??

[Russianlynxy]

What do you mean as continental power??

meaning it can project influence over it's nearby surrounding territories. In both Europe and Asia.

[Flamming_Python]

No not, really. Besides, if you want to be a counter-balance to a superpower, you have to be a superpower yourself. Russia no longer is a superpower.

There are many people's in the world that would prefer Russia to America, just as there are many people's in the world that would prefer America to Russia.

Both balance each other out; American hegemony is bad for all concerned including the Americans themselves; leads to excessive militarism, invasions which in turn lead to a huge rise in anti-Americanism in the world, encourage radical movements in opposition to it (as opposed to the situation in the Cold War when anti-US states were at least offered economic development and stable systems by the USSR and vica-versa) and create a less stable and more dangerous world; ****e to exactly such phantom and fleeting threats as international terrorism.

But you're right, Russia is not a superpower; and probably the only way we will become one again is by re-uniting with Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc... which would be hard to pull off although possible. But there is no need to do that; there are no threats right now not even NATO expansion that can warrant such geo-political shifts which could restart an arms race with America and maybe even China. For now, it's best for Russia to focus on economic development, fight racist extremism at home and radical movements in the Caucasus & Central Asia, and support pro-Russian political systems on its periphery that are prepared to develop an economic union with us; as opposed to the colour-revolution governments that came to power with Western support.

[Derbedeu]

No but it is a continental power, therefore it can balance out issues having to deal with it's own backyard and the superpower's interests in it.

Personally speaking, I don't consider Russia a continental power, that is outside of its military. Russia simply is not looked upon as attractively as the EU is by other nations. The only real place I see Russia continuing to have some sort extra-territorial impact is the Caucasus and the many-stans regions. Again, just my personal opinion.

[Flamming_Python]

Personally speaking, I don't consider Russia a continental power, that is outside of its military. Russia simply is not looked upon as attractively as the EU is by other nations. The only real place I see Russia continuing to have some sort extra-territorial impact is the Caucasus and the many-stans regions. Again, just my personal opinion.

Realistically, Russia won't be an attractive economic alternative for Eastern Europe for many years, a couple of decades at least, although I believe that it's rise to such a position is inevitable in the long-term due to its vast size, low population, abundant natural resources, focus on research and theoretical sciences, very large domestic market, many export goods and increasing role of manufacturing and innovation in its economy. Europe on the other hand is overcrowded; there is far more potential for labour migrants to Russia's vast agricultural and resource-rich areas than for example, Polish plumbers in Britain :) Simply put, over the coming years a larger and larger proportion of Eastern European trade will be connected to Russia, this situation has already developed in Turkey and some other countries, including those in Europe, and certainly Russia hasn't lost its position as the largest trade partner for the CIS countries; despite 18 years of diversification.

The EU economy, simply by virtue of being so massive, will of course continue to dominate a very large geographic area in the world and will do so far more thoroughly than Russia; but as we have seen multiple times; one co-ordinated, concentrated power is far more influential than one that isn't but is 5x as large; much has been made of Russia 'exploiting divisions' in Europe; but this would imply that Europe is united in the first place into a single country or power bloc, which it isn't; rather Russia has been making bi-lateral relations with countries and using such methods to achieve its interests with great success. Turkey for example, has the majority of its trade with EU countries. But it's largest single trade partner is Russia; and it's Russia's position that it has been drawing closer to for the last couple of years, to the weakening of its partnership with Europe.

The EU is a set of treaties and structures that allow European countries to follow certain common interests with great efficiency; what it isn't is a federation or nation state like Russia; and for this same reason it would also be a mistake to compare Russia to the EU in terms of how powerful it can be or how much of a model for development it could become.

[Derbedeu]

If you say so. I'm of a different opinion, but it would be pointless to argue over it, since none of us can really prove what's going to happen in the future.

[Atlantic Friend]

The US is the dominant force in that group. Everyone else just follows blindly whatever US says they should do.

Hardly so.

[Atlantic Friend]

(...)and support pro-Russian political systems on its periphery that are prepared to develop an economic union with us; as opposed to the colour-revolution governments that came to power with Western support.

Which leads me to wonder whether the colour revolutions would have happened if Russia had indeed focused on the various issues you listed. There was a serious lack of alternative, or rather the choice seemed to be between pleasing Russia and making their own choices.

[Flamming_Python]

If you say so. I'm of a different opinion, but it would be pointless to argue over it, since none of us can really prove what's going to happen in the future.

What's your opinion? I don't think it's pointless to argue over it; that way you can say that this whole forum is pointless because no-one ever agrees and no-one ever changes their positions p-) But actually, it does happen; once in a while :)

[Derbedeu]

What's your opinion? I don't think it's pointless to argue over it; that way you can say that this whole forum is pointless because no-one ever agrees and no-one ever changes their positions p-) But actually, it does happen; once in a while :)

Well for one thing I see a coalescing of the EU in the future, and comparisons between the two will become much more applicable. Additionally, I do believe that you're painting a way too optimistic portrait of Russia's future, there is still a lot of work to be done, though I guess you qualified this when you said it might take decades. Russia's intransigence when it comes to its relationships with its neighboring countries (whether it's Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc) doesn't bode too well for it. Then there's the whole Caucuses mess, that doesn't seem to be alleviating any time soon. That's why I don't see Russian influence, or whatever you want to call it, expanding.

Again all this is just my opinion.

[widi243]

meaning it can project influence over it's nearby surrounding territories. In both Europe and Asia.
But about what power are you talking about ?? Military?? Economical??

[Russianlynxy]

But about what power are you talking about ?? Military?? Economical??

mostly economical and political. Why military? We aren't at war with anyone really..

[Stormz_STA]

We aren't at war with anyone really..

...yet
;)

[widi243]

mostly economical and political. Why military? We aren't at war with anyone really..

I know it, it was only example.

[Flamming_Python]

Well for one thing I see a coalescing of the EU in the future, and comparisons between the two will become much more applicable. Additionally, I do believe that you're painting a way too optimistic portrait of Russia's future, there is still a lot of work to be done, though I guess you qualified this when you said it might take decades. Russia's intransigence when it comes to its relationships with its neighboring countries (whether it's Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc) doesn't bode too well for it. Then there's the whole Caucuses mess, that doesn't seem to be alleviating any time soon. That's why I don't see Russian influence, or whatever you want to call it, expanding.

Again all this is just my opinion.


Well I was discussing in another thread, about just how many countries Russia has 'strategic partnerships' with, and how many countries we%

EDIT: Ah hell my post disappeared :( Can any mod roll it back?

[Flamming_Python]

Found my post saved onto my clipboard... sheer luck :)


Well for one thing I see a coalescing of the EU in the future, and comparisons between the two will become much more applicable. Additionally, I do believe that you're painting a way too optimistic portrait of Russia's future, there is still a lot of work to be done, though I guess you qualified this when you said it might take decades. Russia's intransigence when it comes to its relationships with its neighboring countries (whether it's Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc) doesn't bode too well for it. Then there's the whole Caucuses mess, that doesn't seem to be alleviating any time soon. That's why I don't see Russian influence, or whatever you want to call it, expanding.

Again all this is just my opinion.

Well I was discussing in another thread, about just how many countries Russia has 'strategic partnerships' with, and how many countries we are building good relations and significant economic projects with; many of those are old friends from the Soviet-era, but equally many are new partners that have come about as a result of Russia's new and pragmatic foreign policy. The only problems we have are actually, are with a few countries in Eastern Europe, a few in the former USSR, and some old rivals in Europe. No-one else.

Take this for example: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/aug2009/gb20090825_345428.htm
This is not the sort of partnership that every country can achieve; even if they are in the same political bloc and have common interests; Russia has the expertise and the international reckoning to create partnerships like this with France, Italy, South Korea, Germany, Japan, Norway, China, etc... Whereas when smaller states try to do the same they run into problems, economic pressures from powerful countries, etc... This includes most EU members, and in a situation where they rely on France, Britain, etc... to ally with them and fight their battles with them; it's going to be countries like France and Britain that would take advantage instead. This is by definition the problem of the EU, it is too centralised for everyone to screw each over, but equally too de-centralised for everyone to forget their own interests, and the more powerful countries benefit from such a system and will sooner exit such an institution rather than submit to federalism/greater centralisation and give up their privileged positions to a supra-national entity that benefits the poorer countries more than them. The same problem happened when Russia, Belarus and the Central Asian states were thinking of making another union in the 90's; Russia insisted on too many privileges (wrongly IMHO). Actually the USSR and the EU are similar in that way; industrialised regions subsidising development in the less developed regions.

Russia has no chains tying us to anything; not ideology, not allies, not obligations, not bad politics, only some history that is remembered bitterly by some EE countries to justify their own political ambitions and interests. America and Europe (including EU's Eastern members) on the other hand have their hands and options tied down due to ideological reasons, prior mistakes and attempting to isolate countries (which leads them to look towards Russia). America has a complex kaleidoscope of problems with countries in the Middle East, South America, Central America and Asia; which put a huge drain on the West's resources and create many obligations to propping up client and puppet states such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc...

[contra_dude]

Actually Nicaraguan comarades in power are former friends of the USSR. Perhaps they counted on some economic-financial aid from Moscow in exchange for politcal statements like in old, good times. But they are sure to receive none. The times of Soviet communist generosity sank into oblivion long ago.

They gave em some buses. :)
http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=29039

[RIPTIDE]

WHat is your purpose in this thread, aside from immature and un-original flaming?
Shyte Talk by the sounds of it.