British Foreign Minister apologies Poland for not helping in 39 [Archive]

Alfacentori

08-31-2009, 06:33 AM

I can understand the idea behind this, solidarity etc etc, but it smacks of 'revisionist history' to me.

Realistically what were Britains options to help Poland in 1939?

-The treaty of protecton between the western allies and Poland was always a cinderella treaty.

In 1939 Britains army was in no shape to fight the Germans and to do so would have been total folly. There was no real naval option, not in the narrows with the Luftwaffe, Uboats and mines etc. Britains bomber force was still in its infancy and its doubtful it could have made a useful contribution. Plus there is the question of whether France would have agreed to support an offensive campaign, doubtful.

The chance to stop Hitlers expansionism (if there ever was one) came and went with the Rhineland, where the western allies had the military advantage and the German forces had orders to retreat if they were opposed.

Alfa

Switek

08-31-2009, 06:35 AM

Yeah, apologise for the Red Army liberating the concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race:roll:

If Red Army left Poland in 1945 or 1946 we certainly would me much more grateful for this liberation. Unfortunately it did not bring us freedom...

lightfire

08-31-2009, 06:39 AM

Yeah, apologise for the Red Army liberating the concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race:roll:

Are you mentally challenged?

Why should Milliband apologize for what the Red army did? Liberation of concentration camps was the least of Red army's concern, the point was to crush the Nazi Germany. Poland was simply on this way. Surprise, liberation of concentration camps coincidences with elimination of polish resistance.

I believe, what he meant about 1945 was Yalta and Potsdam - leaving Poland for Stalins will (not that the West could actually do about this apart fighting the USSR)

LineDoggie

08-31-2009, 06:55 AM

Werent many of the Polish Home Army leaders arrested and executed by the NKVD after 1945?

Many of the men who fought in 1939 in Poland, in 1940 in France/Norway , in 1941-43 in North Africa, in 1943-45 in Italy, in 1944-45 in Northwest Europe and then couldnt go home because the Reds were occupying their homeland had much to be thankful for, eh Mango?

Thankful for an "Ally" which shot 10,000 of their brothers in the head. an "Ally" which stopped the campaign just outside Warsaw and let the Wehrmacht crush the Home Army & refused permission to let airfields under SU control be used for returning aircraft dropping arms and ammunition reinforce the men and women fighting the Fascists. This caused the flights to have to severely reduce their cargo loads.

Yeah, lots to be thankful for

ting

08-31-2009, 07:19 AM

Yeah, apologise for the Red Army liberating the concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race:roll:

Like others have hinted at. Appologize for Stalin having his way with Poland after the war.

The Russians liberated the North of Norway from the Germans in 1944-45. They left again. It would have been nice of them to do the same with Poland don't you think?

Though of course it is questionable what the UK could have done vs. Stalin.

On 1939, I don't really see what more the UK could have done.

TheEngineer

08-31-2009, 07:25 AM

Yeah, apologise for the Red Army liberating the concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race:roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

the Russians didn't care much about the Polish ;)

Mango Madness

08-31-2009, 07:57 AM

If Red Army left Poland in 1945 or 1946 we certainly would me much more grateful for this liberation. Unfortunately it did not bring us freedom...

I have no doubt that you would be. My point is that Poles should be far more grateful for the Red Army/SU/Russia for freeing Poland from a people that were in the process of wiping their race out than hateful towards SU/Russia for restricting "political freedom" and providing lower standard of living than they would have probably had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

the Russians didn't care much about the Polish ;)

The motivation is irrelevant, the fact is that the SU/Russia did liberate Poland's concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race. And American and British liberations were possible because the SU killed 80-93% of the Nazi's.

lightfire

08-31-2009, 08:06 AM

I have no doubt that you would be. My point is that Poles should be far more grateful for the Red Army/SU/Russia for freeing Poland from a people that were in the process of wiping their race out than hateful towards SU/Russia for restricting "political freedom" and providing lower standard of living than they would have probably had.

The motivation is irrelevant, the fact is that the SU/Russia did liberate Poland's concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race. And American and British liberations were possible because the SU killed 80-93% of the Nazi's.

Your so called irrelevance is ignorance. One rapist is changed by another, that, compared to the first one is milder. Should the victim be grateful for less brutal rape? Point is - SU liberated and did not leave, on the contrary - "took care" of those who did not want Stalins sun. You can leave your "more grateful" to yourself.

Switek

08-31-2009, 08:07 AM

I have no doubt that you would be. My point is that Poles should be far more grateful for the Red Army/SU/Russia for freeing Poland from a people that were in the process of wiping their race out than hateful towards SU/Russia for restricting "political freedom" and providing lower standard of living than they would have probably had.

The motivation is irrelevant, the fact is that the SU/Russia did liberate Poland's concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race. And American and British liberations were possible because the SU killed 80-93% of the Nazi's.

The problem is that deserved gratitude for soviet troops was replaced very quickly by fear and uncertainty, just after first NKVD arrests and liquidations of enemies of communist rule ...

Mango Madness

08-31-2009, 08:10 AM

Your so called irrelevance is ignorance. One rapist is changed by another, that, compared to the first one is milder. Should the victim be grateful for less brutal rape? Point is - SU liberated and did not leave, on the contrary - "took care" of those who did not want Stalins sun. You can leave your "more grateful" to yourself.

Yes, the country that was wiping out the Polish race is a rapist while the country that restricted political freedom and facilitated a lower standard of living than they probably would have had is a "slightly milder" rapist :roll: Get real.

lightfire

08-31-2009, 08:23 AM

Yes, the country that was wiping out the Polish race is a rapist while the country that restricted political freedom and facilitated a lower standard of living than they probably would have had is a "slightly milder" rapist :roll: Get real.

Get real yourself,

Do you know anything that was happening in soviet occupied Poland in 1940 and then from 1945? "Restricted political freedom" isn't quite a word for NKVD actions.

tyovan

08-31-2009, 08:39 AM

Yes, the country that was wiping out the Polish race is a rapist while the country that restricted political freedom and facilitated a lower standard of living than they probably would have had is a "slightly milder" rapist :roll: Get real.

Katyn? Wladyslaw Anders' Corps formed from the Poles sent to Siberia? The LWP recruited from Polish deportees?

You're making yourself look very ignorant.

Holycrusader

08-31-2009, 09:01 AM

Katyn? Wladyslaw Anders' Corps formed from the Poles sent to Siberia? The LWP recruited from Polish deportees?

You're making yourself look very ignorant.

Are you quote the right guy? This thread start to be really confusing...

Drako

08-31-2009, 09:22 AM

Yes, the country that was wiping out the Polish race is a rapist while the country that restricted political freedom and facilitated a lower standard of living than they probably would have had is a "slightly milder" rapist :roll: Get real.

Heh, you have no idea what was going on here after 1945. If it was only "lower standard of living" we wouldn't be so unhappy about whole liberation thing. For thousands of Polish soldiers war ended in late 60's. When western countries were enjoying freedom in Polish forests the fight was going on. NKVD (both Russian and Polish) were spreading silent terror for over 20 years. If you knew what they were doing with whole families after 1945 you wouldn't dare to write so mild words about "liberation".

Holycrusader

08-31-2009, 09:49 AM

Heh, you have no idea what was going on here after 1945. If it was only "lower standard of living" we wouldn't be so unhappy about whole liberation thing. For thousands of Polish soldiers war ended in late 60's. When western countries were enjoying freedom in Polish forests the fight was going on. NKVD (both Russian and Polish) were spreading silent terror for over 20 years. If you knew what they were doing with whole families after 1945 you wouldn't dare to write so mild words about "liberation".

Don't be a drama queen... Things are not so simple as you show.
Stalinism start in 1948, before situation in central Poland was not so bad. Lots of exAK soldiers found jobs in administration. Even officials from II RP get high positions in PRL. Here is a best example of such person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Zi%C4%99tek

In memuars from that period you see that people actually think that was liberation, maybe because Germans were so bad at us...

For some reason people say that PRL was the funniest barrack in the lager...

Drako

08-31-2009, 10:16 AM

Don't be a drama queen... Things are not so simple as you show.
Stalinism start in 1948, before situation in central Poland was not so bad. Lots of exAK soldiers found jobs in administration. Even officials from II RP get high positions in PRL. Here is a best example of such person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Zi%C4%99tek

In memuars from that period you see that people actually think that was liberation, maybe because Germans were so bad at us...

For some reason people say that PRL was the funniest barrack in the lager...

Well, for average worker it wasn't so bad. And yes, Poland was that funniest barrack. But still, terror was going on, families were disappearing, there was no mercy for anyone, even children (i know it from the solid source). We can't stay silent just because others were in worse position.

oldsoak

08-31-2009, 10:24 AM

I'm not sure why he did this.
Alfa made a point - what could we have done other than what we did - which was go to war with the Nazis. We had almost nothing to hit the Nazis with. We even needed to fight the battle of Britain with Polish, Czechoslovak, Free French and Commonwealth pilots.

If anything - Czechoslovakia is who we should apologise to.

The Warsaw uprising is of course another matter.

Mango Madness

08-31-2009, 10:27 AM

Heh, you have no idea what was going on here after 1945. If it was only "lower standard of living" we wouldn't be so unhappy about whole liberation thing. For thousands of Polish soldiers war ended in late 60's. When western countries were enjoying freedom in Polish forests the fight was going on. NKVD (both Russian and Polish) were spreading silent terror for over 20 years. If you knew what they were doing with whole families after 1945 you wouldn't dare to write so mild words about "liberation".

Spare me the melodramatics. Life for the average Pole was fine, just as it was for the average Soviet citizen. People led their lives. They went to work, studied, had families, raised children. Poland's population consistently grew after WWII, almost doubling in fact, from 23 million in 1946 to 38 million in 1989 (post-communist Poland's population has since remained static).

nemowork

08-31-2009, 10:41 AM

Back on track, a fairly decent feature from todays Daily Telegraph on the complacency, lack of willpower and Mussolinis input into the events.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/world-war-2/6105782/Second-World-War-Why-we-delayed-declaration-of-war.html

Yet the central reason for the delay was an offer by Mussolini for an immediate Five Power conference of Britain, France, Poland, Germany and Italy. Although Chamberlain told the Commons that Britain 'would find it impossible to take part in a conference while Poland is being subjected to invasion, her towns are under bombardment and Danzig is being made the subject of a unilateral settlement by force', so naïve were the prime minister and foreign secretary about the true nature of modern Blitzkrieg warfare that they genuinely imagined that there was even an outside possibility of Hitler simply calling off the attack.
'If the German Government should agree to withdraw their forces', Chamberlain stated with supreme wishful thinking, 'then His Majesty's Government would regard the position as being the same as it was before the German forces crossed the Polish frontier.'
To this day we do not know whether Mussolini made his offer of a peace conference in good faith or as a means of muddying the waters for the Western Allies just as his ally in the Pact of Steel, Adolf Hitler, concentrated on crushing the Poles, and anyhow it does not matter. The delay came to an end only when furious Cabinet ministers met behind the Speaker's Chair in the Commons and an outraged House imposed its will on Chamberlain and Halifax on the evening before war was finally declared. Appeasement was at an end, and not a moment too soon.

Drako

08-31-2009, 10:46 AM

Spare me the melodramatics. Life for the average Pole was fine, just as it was for the average Soviet citizen. People led their lives. They went to work, studied, had families, raised children. Poland's population consistently grew after WWII, almost doubling in fact, from 23 million in 1946 to 38 million in 1989 (post-communist Poland's population has since remained static).

Yeah, cool, so death of those who should be named heroes after the war you call melodrama? Your ignorance is unacceptable. The truth is - did not Soviets remained in Poland after the war and installed communist government here life in Poland would be much better and a lot of people would be alive today. And keep your ignorant comments to yourself, as disrespecting those who were murdered for their commitment to the country is below everything.

happyslapper

08-31-2009, 02:22 PM

For those of us who don't understand Polish, what is it Milliband has apologised for?

JCR

08-31-2009, 02:25 PM

I feel the need to apologize to Poles for something as well.
So sorry to Antek from Wroclaw for stealing a bottle of Cianti on his birthday party last year....
rofl

Mr.K

08-31-2009, 02:28 PM

I feel the need to apologize to Poles for something as well.
So sorry to Antek from Wroclaw for stealing a bottle of Cianti on his birthday party last year....
rofl

Me too, Apologies Jacek, I still have your ski gear .

widi243

08-31-2009, 03:57 PM

Don't be a drama queen... Things are not so simple as you show.
Stalinism start in 1948, before situation in central Poland was not so bad. Lots of exAK soldiers found jobs in administration. Even officials from II RP get high positions in PRL. Here is a best example of such person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Zi%C4%99tek

In memuars from that period you see that people actually think that was liberation, maybe because Germans were so bad at us...

For some reason people say that PRL was the funniest barrack in the lager...

Really you must joking?? Right??
Tell it to gen. Emil Fieldorf!

widi243

08-31-2009, 03:59 PM

I feel the need to apologize to Poles for something as well.
So sorry to Antek from Wroclaw for stealing a bottle of Cianti on his birthday party last year....
rofl

I hope that it tasted :)

oldsoak

08-31-2009, 04:01 PM

Emil Fieldorf RIP.

To our shame we actually had those who conspired to his murder in the UK and we didnt hand them over to the Polish authorities who requested their extradition.

Lazy Lob

08-31-2009, 05:19 PM

I'm not sure why he did this.

It could be that he's of Polish descent and his father was a marxist? Oh yeah and he's Neu-Arbeit, and oooh very pc.

I would like to apologise for squeezing one out.

gaz

08-31-2009, 06:10 PM

I'm not really sure on who's behalf it is that he's apologising. It's certainly not mine bearing in mind it happened forty years before I was born.

lightfire

08-31-2009, 06:13 PM

I'm not really sure on who's behalf it is that he's apologising. It's certainly not mine bearing in mind it happened forty years before I was born.

Yes, when a politician speaks about deeds of his country he or she certainly and specifically has in mind you. Elect a new one.

seer

08-31-2009, 06:24 PM

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80271,6982405,Szef_brytyjskiego_MSZ__Przepraszam__ze_w_1939_r__nie.html

Apologies continuation.

David Miliband, British Foreign Minister apologies Poland for not helping in 1939.
Better late... than (?)

The title of this article is very misleading. He said: “We know and regret that in 1939 the allies of Poland were not able to render military assistance to Poland” ( this is my translation form polish quote)
I think there is a difference between 'Sorry that we didn’t..' and 'Sorry that we couldn’t.'

nemowork

08-31-2009, 06:57 PM

For those of us who don't understand Polish, what is it Milliband has apologised for?

Tony Blair used to apologise for everything we might ever have done to anybody as long it got on the international news.

Millibands just reminding people he's available once theres a vacancy at the top.

Musashi

08-31-2009, 07:45 PM

It could be that he's of Polish descent and his father was a marxist? Oh yeah and he's Neu-Arbeit, and oooh very pc.

I would like to apologise for squeezing one out.
Actually his father was a Marxist Polish Jew who fought against Poland during the Polish-Bolshevik War in 1919-1920.

Holmes85

08-31-2009, 08:02 PM

I have no doubt that you would be. My point is that Poles should be far more grateful for the Red Army/SU/Russia for freeing Poland from a people that were in the process of wiping their race out than hateful towards SU/Russia for restricting "political freedom" and providing lower standard of living than they would have probably had.

The motivation is irrelevant, the fact is that the SU/Russia did liberate Poland's concentration camps and the country from the Nazi's who were in the process of wiping out the Polish race. And American and British liberations were possible because the SU killed 80-93% of the Nazi's.

Spare me the melodramatics. Life for the average Pole was fine, just as it was for the average Soviet citizen. People led their lives. They went to work, studied, had families, raised children. Poland's population consistently grew after WWII, almost doubling in fact, from 23 million in 1946 to 38 million in 1989 (post-communist Poland's population has since remained static).

I can't believe I'm hearing this.:roll: