Turkey and Armenia set for ties

[Migman]

Turkey and its neighbour Armenia have moved closer to establishing diplomatic ties after decades of bitter mistrust on both sides.

They are to hold six weeks of domestic consultations on the move after which their parliaments will vote on it, their foreign ministries announced.

Negotiations on the mending of ties have been brokered by Switzerland.

The two countries' dispute centres on the fate of Armenians under Turkish Ottoman rule nearly a century ago.

Turkey has resisted widespread calls for it to recognise the mass killing of Armenians during World War I as an act of genocide.

Anticipation of a diplomatic breakthrough has been growing ahead of a planned visit by Armenian President Serge Sarkisian to Turkey on 14 October.

He is due to attend the return leg of a World Cup qualifying football match between the two countries.

A roadmap for the normalisation of the relationship between the two countries was agreed in April.

The foreign ministries said the two countries had agreed to start internal discussions on two protocols: one establishing diplomatic relations and the other developing bilateral ties.

"The political consultations will be completed within six weeks, following which the two protocols will be signed and submitted to the respective parliaments for ratification," their joint statement said.

According to ******* news agency, the Turkish-Armenian border - closed by Turkey in 1993 - will re-open within two months of the protocols coming into force.

Modern Armenia, which took shape as a Soviet republic in 1920, has only had diplomatic relations with Turkey as part of the USSR.

Since declaring independence in 1991, it has pressed for recognition of what it says was genocide.

Relations have also been complicated by Turkish support for Azerbaijan in its armed conflict with Armenia over the disputed territory of Nagorno-Karabakh.
___
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230809.stm

[Thfela]

It's very dangerous way for Armenia..
We saw many times that we are not good chess player in the political area as Turk's..

[Migman]

It's very dangerous way for Armenia..
We saw many times that we are not good chess player in the political area as Turk's..

What makes me hopeful is that the BBC article does not mention anything about preconditions regarding the fate of NKR. Perhaps this will be a nonissue, if so you can say good bye to warm relations between Azerbaijan and Turkey. The Azeis will never forgive their "brothers."

Here's the actual protocol:


Between Republic of Armenia and Republic of Turkey

The Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey,

Desiring to establish good neighborly relations and to develop bilateral cooperation in the political, economic, cultural and other fields for the benefit of their peoples, as envisaged in the Protocol on the development of relations signed on the same day,

Referring to their obligation under the Charter of the United Nations, the Helsinki Final Act, the Charter of Paris for a New Europe,

Reconfirming their commitment, in their bilateral and international relations, to respect and ensure respect for the principles equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers,

Bearing in mind the importance of the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere of trust and confidence between the two countries that will contribute to the strengthening of peace, security and stability of the whole region, as wll as being determined to refrain from the threat or the use of force, to promote the peaceful settlement of disputes, and to protect human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Confirming the mutual recognition of the existing border between the two countries as defined by the relevant treaties of international law,

Emphasizing their decision to open the common border.

Reiterating their commitment to refrain from pursuing any policy incompatible with the spirit of good neighborly relations.

Condemning all forms of terrorism, violence and extremism irrespective of their cause, pledging to refrain from encouraging and tolerating such acts and to cooperate in combating against them,

Affirming their willingness to chart a new pattern and course for their relations on the basis of common interests, goodwill and in pursuit of peace, mutual understanding and harmony,

Agree to establish diplomatic relations as of the date of the entry into force of this Protocol in accordance with the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961 and to exchange Diplomatic Missions.

Protocol on Development of Relations Between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey

Guided by the Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey signed on the same day,

Considering the perspectives of developing their bilateral relations, based on confidence and respect to their mutual interests,

Determining to develop and enhance their bilateral relations, in the political, economic, energy, transport, scientific, cultural issues and other fields, based on common interests of both countries,

Supporting the promotion of the cooperation between the two countries in the international and regional organizations, especially within the framework of the UN, the OSCE, the Council of Europe, the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council and the BSEC,

Taking into account the common purpose of both States to cooperate for enhancing regional stability and security for ensuring democratic and sustainable development of the region,

Reiterating their commitment to the peaceful settlement of regional and international disputes and conflicts on the basis of the norms and principles of international law,

Reaffirming their readiness to actively support the actions of the international community in addressing common security threats to the region and world security and stability, such as terrorism, transnational organized crimes, illicit trafficking of drugs and arms,

1. Agree to open the common border within 2 months after entry into force of this Protocol,

2. Agree to
Conduct regular political consultation between the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the two countries;

Implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial and scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations;

Make the best possible use of existing transport, communications and energy infrastructure and networks between the two countries and to undertake measures in this regard;

Develop the bilateral legal framework in order to foster cooperation between the two countries;

Cooperate in the fields of science and education by encouraging relations between the appropriate institutions as well as promoting the exchange of specialists and students, and act with the aim of preserving the cultural heritage of both sides and launching common cultural projects;

Establish consular cooperation in accordance with the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963 in order to provide necessary assistance and protection to the citizens of the two countries;

Take concrete measures in order to develop trade, tourism and economic cooperation between the two countries;

Engage in a dialogue and reinforce their cooperation on environmental issues.

3. Agree on the establishment of an intergovernmental bilateral commission which shall comprise separate sub-commissions for the prompt implementation of the commitments mentioned in operation paragraph 2 above in this Protocol. To prepare the working modalities of the intergovernmental commission and its sub-commissions, a working group headed by the two Ministers of Foreign Affairs shall be created 2 months after the day following the entry into force of this Protocol. Within 3 months after the entry into force of this Protocol, these modalities shall be approved at ministerial level. The intergovernmental commission shall meet for the first time immediately after the adoption of the said modalities. The sub-commissions shall start their work at the latest 1 month thereafter and they shall work continuously until the completion of their mandates. Where appropriate, international experts shall take part in the sub-commissions.

The timetable ans elements agreed by both sides for the implementation of this Protocol are mentioned in the annexed document (See below), which is an integral part of this Protocol.

This Protocol and the Protocol on the Estblishment of Diplomatic Relation between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey shall enter into force on the same day, i.e. on the fist day of the first month following the exchanges of instruments of ratification.

Annexed Document: Timetable and elements for the implementation of the Protocol on development of relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey

Timetable and elements for the implementation of the Protocol on development of relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey.

[bono]

Thats a surprise, usually all you hear about is Armenians trying the world to recognize massacre of Armenians in 1915 and Turks calling it tall tales.

[Help I'm stuck!]

The only thing I'm worried about if Armenia and Turkey start political ties of any kind, how is Azerbaijan going to react? And how is the stability of the area going to be affected.

[Ordie]

It's usually the Armenian diaspora living abroad that are more hardline than the Armenian government when it comes to re-establishing relations with Turkey.

[Azatavrear]

Thats a surprise, usually all you hear about is Armenians trying the world to recognize massacre of Armenians in 1915 and Turks calling it tall tales.

You might be surprised to know that some Armenian Diasporans personally don’t give a damn about Turkey recognizing anything.
BTW The President of Armenia will not attend the Soccer match since Turkey as always doubled back on its promises during the so called the road map , to no surprise to me.

[deli_dumrul]

You might be surprised to know that some Armenian Diasporans personally don’t give a damn about Turkey recognizing anything.

You have a point.... After all, a century has passed but you could not pull this off in your own - well for the sake of my argument at least - country.



Federal appeals court rejects Armenian genocide case

Descendants of victims can't sue foreign insurance companies for unpaid claims because the U.S. government doesn't legally recognize the genocide, a three-judge 9th Circuit panel rules.



By Carol J. Williams August 21, 2009


Armenian Americans descended from victims of the 1915-18 massacre by Ottoman Turks can't sue foreign insurance companies for unpaid claims because the U.S. government doesn't legally recognize that an Armenian genocide occurred, a federal appeals court ruled Thursday.

A Glendale priest and thousands of other Armenians whose relatives were among the 1.2 million killed had won a partial victory two years ago. U.S. District Judge Christina A. Snyder said then that a 2000 law passed by the California Legislature gave the descendants standing to sue three German insurance companies.

But a divided three-judge panel of the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals overturned that ruling, saying the California law attempted to undercut the president's diplomatic authority and had to be preempted by the federal policy against acknowledging the genocide.

Congress has considered resolutions three times in the last decade that would have provided official recognition of the genocide. Each time, the White House has stepped in to urge that the bills be scuttled, out of fear that passage would damage relations with Turkey, whose government disputes that a genocide took place.

"I think the decision is outrageous. If taken to its logical extension, what this decision means is that all 40 states that have recognized the Armenian genocide have to set aside that recognition," said Brian S. Kabateck, a Los Angeles lawyer representing the plaintiffs whose own maternal grandparents died in the genocide.

"This is a sad day for Armenian Americans," he said, adding that the decision would make recovery of victims' bank accounts, insurance proceeds and other property impossible. He vowed to appeal for rehearing by a larger panel of judges.

Vartkes Yeghiayan, the lawyer for lead plaintiff Father Vazken Movsesian of St. Peter Armenian Church, described the ruling as "devastating."

The attorney representing the German insurers, Neil M. Soltman, called the decision "a straight-down-the-middle determination that in the area of foreign affairs, federal power has to prevail."

Judge Harry Pregerson dissented from the majority opinion by Judges David R. Thompson and Dorothy W. Nelson. Pregerson wrote that the District Court had correctly judged the California statute as "within the state's traditional area of competence" in regulating the insurance industry.

The plaintiffs sought settlement of claims under policies issued by German insurers Victoria Versicherung and Ergo Versicherungsgruppe, as well as their parent company, Munchener Ruckversicherungsgesellschaft.



http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-armenian-suit21-2009aug21,0,2171990.story

When it comes to passing bills, everybody passes bills. When it comes to paying, nobody wants to pay... Such is the rule of honor, ah I meant interest rates.

[Excalibur]

i wonder if Armenia is going to give up on his struggle for worldwide acceptance of Armenian Genocide as historical fact.

[Faheka]

Opening the border is "out of the question" until Azerbaijan is satisfied with the solution of nk dispute. I'm sure the turkish diplomats conveyed this when they visited aliyev. Even if it isn't on the roadmap, it is largely believed that the two problems goes hand in hand, and one will not be solved until there is a solution on the other one.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-185635-100-aliyev-meets-top-turkish-diplomats-in-baku.html
_________________________

"Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu said Monday that Turkey would “guard” Azerbaijan's interest during its reconciliation with Armenia, saying in comments that “our aim is to establish stability in the Caucasus.”"

"The Turkish foreign minister said, however, that opening the border was out of the question for now. “A longer process is required for that,” Davutoğlu said Monday."

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-185635-100-aliyev-meets-top-turkish-diplomats-in-baku.html

___________________

@excalibur

here is the historical fact for you by one of the most respected historian Bernard Lewis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4

[Afro-European]

Armenia, Turkey move closer to restoring diplomatic ties

ANKARA, August 31 (RIA Novosti) - Turkey and Armenia agreed at talks mediated by Switzerland on Monday to start "internal political consultations" on re-establishing diplomatic relations and opening their borders.
Turkey closed its border with Armenia in 1993 in a show of support for Muslim ally Azerbaijan following a bloody conflict over Nagorny Karabakh (http://en.beta.rian.ru/photolents/20080403/102774466.html) between the two ex-Soviet republics. Ankara has also demanded that Yerevan drop its campaign to have the mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915 internationally recognized as genocide.
"Political consultations will be completed within six weeks, and following that, two protocols will be signed and submitted to the two countries' parliaments for approval," Turkey's Foreign Ministry said.
"Both protocols [on establishing diplomatic relations and on the development of bilateral relations] create a base for normalizing bilateral relations... The normalization of bilateral relations will further guarantee peace and stability in region," the ministry said.
Armenia's Foreign Ministry said that the country is ready to establish diplomatic relations without preconditions, and welcomes the timeframes as reasonable.
"Both documents define reasonable timeframes for the normalization of bilateral relations," the ministry said.
However, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said in comments on the accord on Tuesday that Turkey does not plan to open the border "at the current stage."
"Turkey's goal is to maintain friendly relations with its neighbors and establish stability and lasting peace in the Caucasus," he told national TV, adding that Azerbaijan's interests must not be disregarded in efforts to improve ties with Armenia.
Armenia's Foreign Ministry said after the talks on Monday that the border would be opened within two months after the two countries have signed the protocols.
Turkey and Armenia have held talks mediated by Switzerland for two years. They agreed to a "roadmap" to normalize their relations under Swiss mediation this April.
The U.S. State Department welcomed Monday's talks.
"We urge Armenia and Turkey to proceed expeditiously," State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said in a statement. "We remain ready to work closely with both governments in support of normalization, a historic process that will contribute to peace, security and stability throughout the region."
Armenian President Serzh Sargsyan is expected to visit Turkey on October 14, where he will attend a World Cup qualifying football match between the two countries.
Turkish President Abdullah Gul watched the first leg of the match in Yerevan last year. Sargsyan said earlier he would go if the border has reopened or Turkey has lifted its economic blockade of landlocked Armenia.

[BorisA]

Again a treacherous act by the AKP government agains the turkish folk and its kin.

Turkish preconditions should be the start of negations for a solution of the NK-conflict and the acceptance of the territorial sovereignity of Turkey and its current borders.

After these points the borders may open.

[Turklegend]

Akp is going on their treacherous acts.If erdogan opens border before the solution of the NK-conflict, he will declare himself as one of the biggest liar in the world.

[Bolshoy]

So is Erdogan bey ready for consequences?

I trust Turkish people and I hope that the border will stay closed.

[Migman]

Again a treacherous act by the AKP government agains the turkish folk and its kin.

Turkish preconditions should be the start of negations for a solution of the NK-conflict and the acceptance of the territorial sovereignity of Turkey and its current borders.

After these points the borders may open.

Absolutely not. I for one applaud the Turkish govt for seeing the light of day and not rambling on about any BS preconditions regarding NKR. This is none of their concern. NKR is purely between Azerbaijan, Armenia, and of course NKR. Turkey would be wise not to meddle in this issue.

[Bolshoy]

Absolutely not. I for one applaud the Turkish govt for seeing the light of day and not rambling on about any BS preconditions regarding NKR. This is none of their concern. NKR is purely between Azerbaijan, Armenia, and of course NKR. Turkey would be wise not to meddle in this issue.

Of course its very wise to lose a importnant (resources, location) and kin country to an enemy nation

[dragonunion]

Of course its very wise to lose a importnant (resources, location) and kin country to an enemy nation
There were no enemy forever. Only nation's interests are important. If Turkey considers good relationship with Armenia is needed, they can do whatever they want. :)

[Turklegend]

Absolutely not. I for one applaud the Turkish govt for seeing the light of day and not rambling on about any BS preconditions regarding NKR. This is none of their concern. NKR is purely between Azerbaijan, Armenia, and of course NKR. Turkey would be wise not to meddle in this issue.

Do u know why Turkish border was closed? it was because of Armenian occupation of Azerbaijan % 20 land and massacre on Azeri people in Xocalı.After that events, the relations was cut, so there cant be an agrement on relations especially with borders before NKR conflict solved.It can be both meaningless and treacherous for Azerbaijan.

[clancy]

thise stap whas verry smart from Armenia..and its verry difficult for Turkey.

thise is like a chess game

[BorisA]

Absolutely not. I for one applaud the Turkish govt for seeing the light of day and not rambling on about any BS preconditions regarding NKR. This is none of their concern. NKR is purely between Azerbaijan, Armenia, and of course NKR. Turkey would be wise not to meddle in this issue.

Turkey has nothing to win with open borders (at least on the shortrun) but certainly will lose something: its good and important relations with the Azeris who are from the same kin and share the same religion.
From all or neighbours the Azeris are the only ones we can trust (apart from Nothern Cyprus) and now we doing the best to lose them. Insane!

[Azatavrear]

i wonder if Armenia is going to give up on his struggle for worldwide acceptance of Armenian Genocide as historical fact.

We will never give that up.......no matter how many centuries.
Like I said, I personally do not care what Turkey recognizes. It is their curse that they have to live with and I am too busy busting my butt down in NAS Key West at the moment while my house is under mandatory evacuation in Los Angeles to freaking give a damn about Turkish feelings.

BTW, the AG is recognized internationally and a historical fact. Politically it cannot be at this time……..Hey, It is what it is friend.

[BorisA]

Hey, It is what it is friend. Yes a myth and nothing else. And it is really poor for an ancient nation with a rich history to rely on such a lie to create a common identity and memory.



Like I said, I personally do not care what Turkey recognizes. It is their curse that they have to live with
And millions of Turks collectivly and personally don't give nada about your curse and bitching.

[BigBoss20th]

We will never give that up.......no matter how many centuries.
Like I said, I personally do not care what Turkey recognizes. It is their curse that they have to live with
Agreed, the important thing is that the rest of the world knows the truth.

On-topic:
NKR is non of Turkeys business, border opening will do good to both nations.

[Derfeuermann]

What good could it ever do to Turkey? It may do good to Armenia tho.
No disrespect but Armenia is not worth of taking the risk of hurting Azeri feelings. Armenia is politically and economically just another dwarf in Caucausus.
If some smart people are doing this for the sake of EU, they are just wasting important national resources for a dream (EU membership is still a dream for some. I agree with it, it is a pipe-dream ) that will never come true.
(Refer to the latest announcements on behalf of French government by one French minister very lately, that Turks will never be a member of EU but should still be kept attached to it)
What is Turkey gaining in this? seriously, money? what?

[BorisA]

What is Turkey gaining in this? seriously, money? what?

Remeber 1996 the fairplay award Alpay won? Well...something like that.

Or frankly spoken hicbir sey, nothing, nada, nix, rien...

[ArmenianLegion]

Must it gain something material to make it worth while??
Money, Oil, Gold?

How about reconciliation with a neighbor....... the mentality of just ignoring the presence of Armenians will no longer work. Yes, Turkey is a large, powerful nation but that doesn't mean there is no one to the east of it. Similarly, Turkey can no longer just say kurds are "Mountain Turks".... For once I applaud the Turkish government for not ignoring its problems, but rather engaging them and working to solve them in a proactive manner...

Also, open borders may increase the socio-economic status of the eastern provinces and decrease the influence of the PKK.

Most importantly however is the fact that Peace with Azerbaijan or Turkey alone is of no use..... Reconcilliation must occur between all three or else peace will just be an illusion.... Since we have to start somewhere, it makes sense that Turkey and armenia reconcile first and that will hopefullyopen the doors to Armenian-Azerbaijani reconcilliation. Eventually this will also make easier transport communication between Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Armenia has alot to lose aswell, Armenian companies are in no shape to out-compete potential incoming Turkish business.

If anyone is against Turkish and Armenian reconcilliation you are truely backward..... I cannot see how there is a single negative aspect about old enemies agreeing to work out there differences.

[Faheka]

"Reiteratingtheir commitment to the peaceful settlement of regional and international disputes and conflicts on the basis of the norms and principles of international law,"

This could have positive effect on NK. Remember reading that Azerbaijan is ok with giving autonomy to NK, not sure tho.

"Agreeto open the common border within 2 months after the entry into force of this Protocol,"

Giving up territorial claims. (Armenia recognizes Kars Treaty) I can't see any other way before border opening.


"implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations;"

Joint effort to examine the 1914 incidents.

[Flamming_Python]

Azerbaijan has built up its army, but after the results of the Georgian war, has probably made a decision not to attack. Therefore, it's army and the resources that go into it, currently serves no purpose.

Armenia has no reason to give up NKR. Closed borders and economic blockades have only strengthened its resolve, united the nation and kept the most hardline of the Armenian elite in power; supported by a population which sees nothing but enemies encircling them.

The fact is, that the situation in the Caucasus has long ago reached a deadlock. There has been no change for years, and the current status-quo serves no-one's interests in the region; Armenia suffers economically, Turkey suffers from the lack of a stable land connection to Azerbaijan, Iran and further afield, and Azerbaijan doesn't have control over its own legal territory.

Turkey is powerless to influence Armenia or to change the situation to its advantage under the current conditions; therefore it has decided to adopt different tactics, in the hope that it would inject some dynamics, and pave the way to a compromise. I would say, that it's a very smart move.

[m.i.t]

A
NKR is non of Turkeys business, border opening will do good to both nations.

Wrong. Its business of Turkey as much as diaspora Armenians . Gates can be opened . But they can be closed as opened .

FM Mr. Davudoglu said opinions of Azeribaijan will be determinative of the negotiatons. it seems Armenia should deal with Azeribaijan if she wanna gain developments in her landlocked region . l strictly recommend peacefull deal .

[Azatavrear]

Lets see.....Turkey closes borders to hurt Armenia at the worst time during the NKR war. (Note: Armenian borders are not closed) Now Turkey says if you want borders open you must accept the illegal borders of Turkey, give back the land that was liberated by the blood of your Fedayis, and forget about the AG.

Sorry guys but Eastern Turkey is Western Armenia and there is no statue of limitation for the crimes of a Genocide. Now if you wanna due business with Armenia, we will take your money but don't take us for fools.

[m.i.t]

Now if you wanna due business with Armenia, .

What business ? Industry finance agriculture mining tourism transport energy aviation defence ?

Sorry dude. l dont think you have ever been in Armenia yet . No one wish business with Armenia which also has no any business sector except living with diaspora money . Better relations is just a polite wish from EU countries such as France GB Swiztzerland . l think Armenia shouldnt waste or miss it with historical events .

[Azatavrear]

What business ? Industry finance agriculture mining tourism transport energy aviation defence ?

Sorry dude. l dont think you have ever been in Armenia yet . No one wish business with Armenia which also has no any business sector except living with diaspora money . Better relations is just a polite wish from EU countries such as France GB Swiztzerland . l think Armenia shouldnt waste or miss it with historical events .

Armenia would like to increase trade with Turkey and maybe even access to its historic trade routes with a corridor to the Black Sea but Turkey's actions show anything but friendly relationship and polite wishes. In fact the opposite is true. Armenia is all for peaceful relations with all its neighbors but it is kind of hard to do that when the motives of Turkey are as clear as day' no matter how much pressure is applied to the Armenian Government

[Beykoz]

[FONT=Verdana]BTW, the AG is recognized internationally and a historical fact. Politically it cannot be at this time……..Hey, It is what it is friend.
It's a farce... It became a political fact but never a judicial or an historical fact. There are a lot of historians disputing your so called fact.

As posted before by Fahekan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG70UWESfu4




Must it gain something material to make it worth while??
Money, Oil, Gold?

How about reconciliation with a neighbor....... the mentality of just ignoring the presence of Armenians will no longer work. Yes, Turkey is a large, powerful nation but that doesn't mean there is no one to the east of it. Similarly, Turkey can no longer just say kurds are "Mountain Turks".... For once I applaud the Turkish government for not ignoring its problems, but rather engaging them and working to solve them in a proactive manner...

Also, open borders may increase the socio-economic status of the eastern provinces and decrease the influence of the PKK.

Most importantly however is the fact that Peace with Azerbaijan or Turkey alone is of no use..... Reconcilliation must occur between all three or else peace will just be an illusion.... Since we have to start somewhere, it makes sense that Turkey and armenia reconcile first and that will hopefullyopen the doors to Armenian-Azerbaijani reconcilliation. Eventually this will also make easier transport communication between Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Armenia has alot to lose aswell, Armenian companies are in no shape to out-compete potential incoming Turkish business.

If anyone is against Turkish and Armenian reconcilliation you are truely backward..... I cannot see how there is a single negative aspect about old enemies agreeing to work out there differences.
Good post, except the reference to "Mountain Turks"... It was used briefly during the early 80s by the organizers of the 80 coup. It never gained acceptance.




Armenia has no reason to give up NKR. Closed borders and economic blockades have only strengthened its resolve, united the nation and kept the most hardline of the Armenian elite in power; supported by a population which sees nothing but enemies encircling them.

The fact is, that the situation in the Caucasus has long ago reached a deadlock. There has been no change for years, and the current status-quo serves no-one's interests in the region; Armenia suffers economically, Turkey suffers from the lack of a stable land connection to Azerbaijan, Iran and further afield, and Azerbaijan doesn't have control over its own legal territory.
You know Turkey has a direct border with Iran, right...? And good relations with Georgia opens the door east for us. Armenian border has minimal benefit for Turkey.
Also the unity of Armenians is not a product of NK.




Now Turkey says if you want borders open you must accept the illegal borders of Turkey, give back the land that was liberated by the blood of your Fedayis, and forget about the AG.

So let me get this right... You want the borders that you don't recognized opened. You are nothing but a laugh, there is nothing illegal about Turkey's current borders and you will recognize it. Nevermind the fact that we don't give a toss whether Armenia recognizes our borders or not.




Sorry guys but Eastern Turkey is Western Armenia
LOL... Dream on !

[Azatavrear]

So let me get this right... You want the borders that you don't recognized opened. You are nothing but a laugh, there is nothing illegal about Turkey's current borders and you will recognize it. Nevermind the fact that we don't give a toss whether Armenia recognizes our borders or not.

LOL... Dream on !

Who said anything about me wanting for Turkey to open its borders? Closing the borders was a mistake you guys made in the eyes of the EU.

Anyway I personally don’t think Turks and Armenian people are ready for a border opening yet, not until Turkey comes to terms with the truth. Armenian Government willingness is understandable. They are in a tight situation playing a balance in the region that also involves the superpowers, Turkey’s ambitions, Azeri aggression, while finding ways to somehow uphold its primary responsibility with limited resources, which is the well being and prosperity of its people, never mind improving its National security. Turkey knows this very well but if they are under an illusion that they can make us hand over the keys to the fortress then they are greatly mistaken.

[Migman]

Wrong. Its business of Turkey as much as diaspora Armenians . Gates can be opened . But they can be closed as opened.

And Turkey will once again be seen for what it really is: a nation of cowards and revisionists. Borders must not be used as a weapon to influence your neighbors' policies. It just doesn't work.



You know Turkey has a direct border with Iran, right...? And good relations with Georgia opens the door east for us. Armenian border has minimal benefit for Turkey.
Also the unity of Armenians is not a product of NK.


Yes, a direct border with Iran that Turkey regularly violates to bomb and shell Iranian Kurds into submission. That's just so neighborly of Turkey. And relations with Georgia are spectacular, as was proven during last summer's splendid fiasco.

Unless you can somehow prove otherwise, the war for NKR's liberation was a huge unifying factor. Next to Genocide recognition, NKR remains the hottest issue among Armenians the world over.

[Azatavrear]

I am not talking about you, I don't give a şhit about what you think...
I am talking about all Armenians. They want the borders that they don't recognize opened ! You will recognize our borders and that is that !!!




Fvck the EU.




You are definitely a laugh...
They should give the key to you so you can put it under your pillow.

In that case then it shouldn’t matter what I say Turk and you should stop reading my posts and wasting my time by responding.
BTW, The joke is on you, are you giving orders to us?...........and your attitude towards EU, very bad. I know many Turks these days say the same thing since they finally realize that their government cannot fool the EU and can never meet the standards of conduct by EU, but that is not the dirrection of your Government now is it.

[Turklegend]

At every step of Ankara and Yerevan, Baku was informed about the compromise. So Turkey will not take a step which can upset Azerbaijan.No way is more important than our brothers, especially Armenians. Because Nagorno-Karabakh to remain outside the process to open the door is not mean It will not be discussed certainly. Despite persistent, Protocol does not contain the word “ without stipulation”. That is part of the process of Karabakh conflict. Erdogan said that The Protocol without the approval of Assembly does not enter into force. The description is also pointing to the Karabakh conflict.
It is understood that in 6 weeks all of disputes will be revised in both countries. Even after its acceptance, For make it under law, It must take the approval of Assembly. The protocol wont be presented to the Assembly to vote, until the progress of Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Provided with progress, the protocol will be presented to vote. So without a solution in NK It may not be completed. Armenia is also aware of it. Again NK conflict will be determinative of the negotiations.
Open borders will be great chance for Armenia to give birth from economical crisis, also Turkey withdraw all of its international embargos on Armenia. This is a meal for Armenia, represented with gold plate. The NK solution is the key role of developments. Choice is yours…

[Beykoz]

a nation of cowards and revisionists.
Now, now, don't get too excited.




Yes, a direct border with Iran that Turkey regularly violates to bomb and shell Iranian Kurds into submission.
You are mixing it all up with PKK camps in Northern Iraq.
Iran bombs their own terrorists without needing any assistance from us.




And relations with Georgia are spectacular, as was proven during last summer's splendid fiasco.

Seriously, what are you talking about, what have we done wrong by Georgia...?
I think you are another Armenian far detached from reality. You got Iran wrong, you got Georgia wrong, what else is left...?




Unless you can somehow prove otherwise, the war for NKR's liberation was a huge unifying factor. Next to Genocide recognition, NKR remains the hottest issue among Armenians the world over.
Anything relating to Turks is a unifying force for Armenia.
The so called genocide recognition has been the most important factor when it comes to unity. NK issue is a pittance in comparison.




In that case then it shouldn’t matter what I say Turk and you should stop reading my posts and wasting my time by responding.

I love reading your posts, but who is forcing you to respond...?




BTW, The joke is on you, are you giving orders to us?...........and your attitude towards EU, very bad. I know many Turks these days say the same thing since they finally realize that their government cannot fool the EU and can never meet the standards of conduct by EU, but that is not the dirrection of your Government now is it.
Governments come and governments go... Majority of Turks do not think favorably about EU.
I am personally loving it, the more you lot press us about this crap, better it is.

[deli_dumrul]

Azerbaijan has built up its army, but after the results of the Georgian war, has probably made a decision not to attack. Therefore, it's army and the resources that go into it, currently serves no purpose.

I don't understand why you are thinking like that. Russia being broke and bogged down in Georgia, it is the perfect time for Azeris. At least, that's what I would think if I were an Azeri.

I also believe that Nabucco is a great threat to Russian economic interests in Central Asia. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia plays an active role to ignite the area if the situation is not resolved by then and if it comes to delaying Western access to Central Asia energy. Another reason I would stand ready.

Btw, anybody who argues that Turkey should turn her back to a 9 million Azeri market to access to the 4 million Armenian market (at this point they are mutually exclusive) is simply nuts... Stop photoshopping Kemal posters in your university and start attending your economics classes.

Oh, and f*ck the EU... Just wanted to add that. :hug:

[Turklegend]

..........

[Azatavrear]

At every step of Ankara and Yerevan, Baku was informed about the compromise. So Turkey will not take a step which can upset Azerbaijan.No way is more important than our brothers, especially Armenians. Because Nagorno-Karabakh to remain outside the process to open the door is not mean It will not be discussed certainly. Despite persistent, Protocol does not contain the word “ without stipulation”. That is part of the process of Karabakh conflict. Erdogan said that The Protocol without the approval of Assembly does not enter into force. The description is also pointing to the Karabakh conflict.
It is understood that in 6 weeks all of disputes will be revised in both countries. Even after its acceptance, For make it under law, It must take the approval of Assembly. The protocol wont be presented to the Assembly to vote, until the progress of Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Provided with progress, the protocol will be presented to vote. So without a solution in NK It may not be completed. Armenia is also aware of it. Again NK conflict will be determinative of the negotiations.
Open borders will be great chance for Armenia to give birth from economical crisis, also Turkey withdraw all of its international embargos on Armenia. This is a meal for Armenia, represented with gold plate. The NK solution is the key role of developments. Choice is yours…



This is way too complicated to be resolved in such short order, in my humble opinion.
The greatest mistake is excluding the legitimate government of NKR in such decisions, not to mention all the secrecy behind it that does not build any confidence in its outcome in regards to the interest of the people and the future of a Nation.

[Turklegend]

This is way too complicated to be resolved in such short order, in my humble opinion.
The greatest mistake is excluding the legitimate government of NKR in such decisions, not to mention all the secrecy behind it that does not build any confidence in its outcome in regards to the interest of the people and the future of a Nation.

there is no country in the world named with NKR. It was only recognised by occupaying Armenia. So your opinion can only be dream.

[Derfeuermann]

Sorry guys but Eastern Turkey is Western Armenia and there is no statue of limitation for the crimes of a Genocide. Now if you wanna due business with Armenia, we will take your money but don't take us for fools.
Hahaha dream on azat,
even in Van you guys did not have the majority.
Let's assume that you did, you all were Ottoman subjects, living in the known and recognized (since 1639 Kasr-i Shirin Treaty vis-a-vis Iran) borders of the said empire, of which Turkey IS the successor.
If all the Armenians would leave USA and return to Van, let's say, even in that case borders would remain the same and the sovereignty would be Turkish and they would be proud citizens of Turkey.
If the Armenian state has claims on Eastern Anatolia then Mexico should ask and get Florida from USA, due to the high number of hispanics.
Sorry to rain on your hate-laden diaspora propaganda-parade but those are weak and unsustainable claims.

[ Genocide crime can not and shall not be applicable to that case. Genocide as a crime was devised in 1948 and these things allegedly happened in 1915. Law can not be applied retrospectively.
On another note I know that one would be at pains to prove that events qualify as a genocide (assuming the convention be applicable to the case), after all, it was mainly a civil strife between the moslems of the region and the revolting Armenians. First revolt was in 1896 for example in Cilicia, Zeytun.
Now go lecture me about Armenian innocence, after I submit that the number of the moslems perished exceed that of deceased Armenians by 300 000 according to some figures. (May they all rest in peace) As you go on, tell me about the 30 000 man Armenian militia, half of which was ordered to operate from within Ottoman borders (treason? what do you do to one traitor especially in 1915?) The other half was operating under the command of Rusian Chief of Staff.
This figure of 30 000 does NOT contain the armenian armed gangs and other paramilitary groups as well as the those Armenians who had formed an Armenian legion under the guidance of the French BTW. ]

add on:: screw you EU !!!!!

[Raptus_regaliter]

there is no country in the world named with NKR. It was only recognised by occupaying Armenia. So your opinion can only be dream.

Actually none recognizes NK as a state, not even Armenia... too many consequences if they were to.

[d'artagnan]

Yeah, Turkey be tough, since you guys have the balls to call Israel and China having committed "genocide". Yeah, giant Turkey lecturing hobbit sized Israel and China... made me feeling totally WTF as if a dwarf stepped upon a giant's toe! Now, it's armenia~

[Karaahmetoglu]

Few things.

A few Armenians are saying Turkey has nothing to do with NKR they should mind there own business.
Turkey has any right to get into the NKR subject who the hell are you to make the decision of the Turkish people. Why don't you say the same to Russia who picks your side.
This would have never happened if AKP wasn't in. So as soon as they leave Turkey is going to turn their back on Armenia.
I don't think the majority of the Turkish population are going to stay quiet about this.

[Derfeuermann]

Yeah, Turkey be tough, since you guys have the balls to call Israel and China having committed "genocide". Yeah, giant Turkey lecturing hobbit sized Israel and China... made me feeling totally WTF as if a dwarf stepped upon a giant's toe! Now, it's armenia~
hahaha
out of the blue comes one bitter civil servant of Chinese government. Enjoy your 25 cents well deserved.
now you may disappear..

[Derfeuermann]

Few things.

A few Armenians are saying Turkey has nothing to do with NKR they should mind there own business.
Turkey has any right to get into the NKR subject who the hell are you to make the decision of the Turkish people. Why don't you say the same to Russia who picks your side.
This would have never happened if AKP wasn't in. So as soon as they leave Turkey is going to turn their back on Armenia.
I don't think the majority of the Turkish population are going to stay quiet about this.
It does not have to be that way only.
NKR is freed under international guarantees and financial assurance etc. then people may bury their hatchets and move on, AND I MUST ADD enjoy the wealth to be created by the pipelines and stuff.
Even one rudimentary customs union might be feasible one day. I would go and visit Erivan then (Yerevan). I heard it has one beautiful view of Mount Agri (Ararat). and Armenians can easily visit Turkey too, some may even find jobs and settle in Istanbul or elsewhere. yeah why not?
Lose one, gain a thousand.
This game called int'l politics is not always a zero-sum game, look what EU has turned into itself, despite the conflict-ridden history of Germany and France.

[hulaku]

Lol, as if you guys worth as much as freaking 25 cents.

Cmon, just be that freaking hobbit throwing verbal attacks to China and Israel while both countries can make turkey disappear without sending each own army. Since Armenia has none, so i'd like to see Turkey to be more manly than ever.

Quit trolling

This thread is about Turkey and Armenia. It is not about China.

[Derfeuermann]

Lol, as if you guys worth as much as freaking 25 cents.

Cmon, just be that freaking hobbit throwing verbal attacks to China and Israel while both countries can make turkey disappear without sending each own army. Since Armenia has none, so i'd like to see Turkey to be more manly than ever.
seriously,
you are making me LOL.
"shi shi" (thanks) from the bottom of my heart.
With that said,
next time better stick to the issues, you have a clue about, please.

[hulaku]

So turks can troll about Gaza and Xinjiang, and other can't troll on your territory?

How did you come to the brilliant conclusion that im a Turk?


Who the bloody hell do you think Turks are? Dunya lideri? Of course not even.

Again I tell you quit trolling.

[Hollis]

I didn't mean it and soz for using "your".

I'm just saying that:

Since Turks have the balls to mess with others, why can't I merely encourage them to keep their balls hanging and continue their verbal crusade. (while Gaza's still bombed and Xinjiang's still under strict control)


Knock off the trolling................

[m.i.t]

Try to find a hooker . It is not usual to see so much f.ck in a post in MP.NET.

[Azatavrear]

Actually none recognizes NK as a state, not even Armenia... too many consequences if they were to.

It is called strategy……..did you know that the President of Armenia served in NKR war?

Anyway I was hoping to discuss this with our Turkish posters here but it seems it ends up going the wrong direction with everybody getting excited for nothing.
My last post.

[ArmenianLegion]

Turkey And Armenia Can they shake that hand?

Asli Aydintasbas (http://search.forbes.com/search/colArchiveSearch?author=asli+and+aydintasbas&aname=Asli+Aydintasbas), 09.04.09, 01:37 PM EDT Forbes.com


On television they look just like my people--cynical, gloomy and forever complaining. (Just see M.I.T's post above :P)

I am talking about Armenians--street interviews with residents of Yerevan, Armenia's capital, who sound just as skeptical as Turks about this week's sudden announcement by the two neighbors to "normalize" relations.

That normalcy, of course, is arriving about a century after the two peoples faced each other in a brutal civil war. Hundreds of thousands of Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire were deported and massacred in 1915 in what is now eastern Turkey, in a period of turmoil and violence that Armenians call "genocide" and Turks insist was "killing by both sides."
Anatolia was "ethnically cleansed" of its Armenian heritage early last century, but the ghosts of unspeakable deeds have never quite left the crime scene. Since the founding of modern Turkey in 1923 by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Turks have been grappling with "the Armenian issue" one way or another, facing in recent years an ever-widening international campaign to recognize and condemn.

For Turks and Armenians, the issue has always been semantics--whether or not to use the g-word in describing 1915. The majority of Turks believe, and were taught in school, that the killings were not officially sanctioned and do not amount to genocide. To Armenians on the other hand, 1915 is what the Holocaust is to Jews--the single most defining moment in establishing a national identity and a nation-state.
So it made great sense this week for the official announcement to avoid the question of genocide altogether. Similarly left out was the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh, a disputed enclave that Armenians seized from Turkey's close ally Azerbaijan.

The tentative, timid, American- and Swiss-mediated plan calls for opening the border, starting diplomatic relations and, more importantly, establishing a joint "history commission" to study the events of 1915. But the two protocols signed on Monday still need to be ratified by each country's parliament after a period of review--and that, surely, will not be easy.
Already, opposition leaders in both countries are crying foul. Armenian opposition has taken to the streets in protests. Here in Turkey, "We will never vote for the protocols," said Deniz Baykal, Turkey's chief naysayer and the leader of its social democrats. In a country of rising nationalism, still harsher comments are pouring into my Inbox for supporting the initiative in my column in a Turkish daily.

The problem is, although neighbors, Turks and Armenians have practically no reference point about each other except decades of resentment and hate-talk. The border has been sealed for 15 years, and there was practically no communication between the two nations during the period of the Soviet empire.

Here, the Armenian culture has been erased from the face of modern Turkey, so much so that most ordinary Turks of my generation would be shocked to hear that some of our popular dishes are Armenian, that there are town-names derived from Armenian words or even that some Turks have Armenian ancestors going back to orphans of 1915.
In Armenia, there may be more cultural familiarity, with many Armenians still speaking Turkish and carrying out traditions from mainland Anatolia. But in modern Armenia's national ethos, Turks and Turkey have been demonized for so long that it is difficult to one day wake up and accept a peace deal.
So live Turks and Armenians, side by side, enslaved by their governments' poisonous rhetoric for decades, unable to bond, to touch, or even hear each other.

Although a shock to the system, the decision to "normalize" relations is the right one. The economic and international benefits for both sides are immense. But more than that, uniting with the despised sibling would start to fill that big gaping hole that both nations have lived with. It takes baby steps, a personal encounter, a visit or maybe a popular word or song to break the ice. That has not happened so far, but there now is a chance.
A chance, that is, if Turks and Armenians are willing to take it. They can grow tall and big, if willing to take the hand stretched out. Or they can do business as usual. That is, hate and resent and curse and cry.

Asli Aydintasbas is an Istanbul-based journalist and a columnist for the Turkish daily Aksam.

Original @: http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/04/turkey-armenia-ataturk-genocide-history-commission-opinions-contributors-asli-aydintasbas.html

[Turklegend]

wooww An article from an agent, serving in Turkey under the mask of journalist. What a great artcile :) As If writen by an American or Armenian.

Who knows her can guess easly who is she.. When using the mask of American newspaper journalism puplish writings, writen by others, with her own signature.
Most people know, she works for private institutions on behalf of journalism under the mask of the dark things. I am not sorry for her..

[ArmenianLegion]

wooww An article from an agent, serving in Turkey under the mask of journalist. What a great artcile :) As If writen by an American or Armenian.

Who knows her can guess easly who is she.. When using the mask of American newspaper journalism puplish writings, writen by others, with her own signature.
Most people know, she works for private institutions on behalf of journalism under the mask of the dark things. I am not sorry for her..

Maybe its Putin disguised as Ocalan disguised as Sarkozy disguised as Obama disguised as a Bird which is really an Armenian who is disguised as a turkish women named Asli........

Or........ Maybe her name is really Asli, She's really from Istanbul, She's really Turkish and she really meant everything she said........

[Turklegend]

Maybe its Putin disguised as Ocalan disguised as Sarkozy disguised as Obama disguised as a Bird which is really an Armenian who is disguised as a turkish women named Asli........

Or........ Maybe her name is really Asli, She's really from Istanbul, She's really Turkish and she really meant everything she said........

Really? are you serious? I didnt say she is not a Turk :) I will give you an easy clue, Saddam was Iraqi but once upon a time he was a agent of America...

[Razputin]

It's very dangerous way for Armenia..
We saw many times that we are not good chess player in the political area as Turk's..

Armenia is not alone in this and Turkeys position on many things has changed lately in many respects to the point that Azerbaijan felt even a litlle betrayed by its brother nation.. It is a good development.. If anything the Amrenian economy will definitely benefit)

[Razputin]

..,in the long term that is

[RIPTIDE]

Armenia is not alone in this and Turkeys position on many things has changed lately in many respects to the point that Azerbaijan felt even a litlle betrayed by its brother nation.. It is a good development.. If anything the Amrenian economy will definitely benefit)
Not to mention Azeri's elite know that their bread is buttered in Moscow.

[Razputin]

Not to mention Azeri's elite know that their bread is buttered in Moscow.

good one)) better yet -- in Moscow and Ankara

[Scythian]

Why do the Iranians who are Muslim support and help the Armenians.This I have never understood.

[RIPTIDE]

Why do the Iranians who are Muslim support and help the Armenians.This I have never understood.

Ahh. Thats complicated. Even when you consider Ayatollah is an Azeri!!


North Iran has a large Azeri group of people. Elchibey, in Azerbaijan, said publicly that he would like to Annex part of Iran where the Azeri's live. This permanently pissed off the Iranians. :D

[MeteHan]

Armenia is not alone in this and Turkeys position on many things has changed lately in many respects to the point that Azerbaijan felt even a litlle betrayed by its brother nation.. It is a good development.. If anything the Amrenian economy will definitely benefit)

Well, Armenia is NOT alone but Azerbaijan IS alone?
And you say, Turkey BETRAYED their kins?

Turkey is not consist of the current government AKP.

Ah you diaspora..

[Ulytau]

Today Azerbaijan Ambassador speak to some news and Turkiye and Azerbaijan Minister of Foreign Affairs speak too and both side relax now even mostly Azerbaijan i think.

Seems akp daring to check our patience seems someone remind to them when a dude tried to do kind of things his heart stopped magically.

Honeslty about kind of things they must speak with citizens,other parties,National Secret Information Service even with military too,they just tryin to do hey we signed a protocol lets do this..

[Beykoz]

Anyway I was hoping to discuss this with our Turkish posters here but it seems it ends up going the wrong direction with everybody getting excited for nothing.
We discussed the topic, just because you don't like what you're reading don't brush off the content. Maybe you need to discuss this topic with a "Turk" who shares the same sentiments as you.

For example, "fvck the EU" line is a short and sweet answer to your arguments as most of your arguments seem to revolve around on EU's insistence.




Why people here didn't write about Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus?
It's same situation as NKR..
Because if we start talking about TRNC, we will get accused and reported of diverting the subject. Plus your role in NK as the majority is comparable to Greece's role in Cyprus, not ours.





To our Turkish friends:
Bir devlet iki millet? Bu kelimeyi KKTC'yi tanimayan, ulkelerinde Turkce'yi yasaklayan ve Rusya ile dogalgaz anlasmasi yapariz diye tehditler savuran kardeslerinize hatirlatin evella..

Ayrica sayin Aliyev'in dedikleri aynen sunlardir.. Biz Ermenistan'dan 3 kat daha buyuk orduya, 4 kat daha buyuk askeri butceye ve 2.5 kat daha fazla nufusa sahibiz.. Sanirim artik Azerileri sirtinizdan indirmenin, arkanizda saklanip atip tutanlara bir sans vermek zorundasiniz.. Artik o mazlum size muhtac Azerbaycan'in olmadigin bilmek ona gorede politikanizi sekilendirmelisiniz.. Tipki Azerbaycan'in yaptigi gibi..

Sevgiler
Yemezler !
We can dissect our relations with Azerbeycan on our own, without an Armenian's input.




Why don't you ban this troll? Does he offer anything to this thread or to this forum except flames?
What is you input to this thread or to this forum...?
BAN !!!

[80 EAN]

What is you input to this thread or to this forum...?
BAN !!![/QUOTE]


Write in English please I cannot understand / also drop this fvck EU comment in your posts because you'll start hearing "Fvck Turkey" from european members.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Write in English please I cannot understand.



I will translate.


Shut the **** Up. Stop flaming.

[80 EAN]

I will translate.


Shut the **** Up. Stop flaming.


Beers talking, apologies.