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Shuimo
09-01-2009, 06:57 AM
The author of this article has remarks that can set you either laughing or into deep thinking!

A critical question he asked:
Are Asian countries fitting with Western democracy?
What do you think?:bash:





<LI class=byline sizset="32" sizcache="1">Ian Buruma (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/ianburuma) <LI class=publication sizset="33" sizcache="1">guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/), Monday 31 August 2009 16.30 BST <LI class=history sizset="34" sizcache="1">Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/31/japan-election#history-byline)The world has been slow to notice a seismic shift in the politics of the globe's second largest economy.
Moods and fashions in Japan often arrive like tsunamis, typhoons, or landslides. After more than 50 years of almost uninterrupted power, the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) has been buried in a general election (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/31/japan-elections-yukio-hatoyama). Once before, in 1993, change came when a coalition of opposition parties briefly took power, but the LDP still held on to a majority in the Diet's powerful lower house. This time, even that last bastion has fallen. The center-left Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ) took more than 300 of 480 seats in the lower house. The LDP rules no more.
The world, fixated on China's rise, was slow to pay attention to this seismic shift in the politics of the globe's second largest economy. Japanese politics has a dull image in the world's press. Most editors, when they cover Japan at all, prefer stories about the zaniness of its popular youth culture, or the wilder shores of Japanese ***.
The main reason for this is, of course, that Japanese politics was dull, at least since the mid-1950s, when the LDP consolidated its monopoly on power. Only real aficionados of arcane moves inside the ruling party could be bothered to follow the ups and downs of factional bosses, many of whom were from established political families, and most of whom relied on shady financing. Corruption scandals erupted from time to time, but these, too, were usually part of intra-party manoeuvres to rein-in politicians who got too big for their boots, or who tried to grab power before their time.
The system worked after a fashion: LDP faction bosses took turns as prime minister, palms were greased by various business interests, more or less capable bureaucrats decided on domestic economic policies, and the United States took care of Japan's security (and much of its foreign policy, too). Some thought this system would last forever.
Indeed, it has often been said, by Japanese as well as foreign commentators, that a de facto one-party state suits the Japanese. Stability, based on soft authoritarianism, is the Asian way, now followed by China. Asians don't like the messy contentiousness of parliamentary democracy. Look what happens when Asians are foolish enough to import such a system, as in South Korea or Taiwan. Instead of civilised debate, they have filibusters and fisticuffs.
But, notwithstanding the occasional bust-ups, Korean and Taiwanese democracies seem remarkably robust. And the argument that Japanese, or other Asians, are culturally averse to political competition is not historically true.
In fact, Japanese history is full of strife and rebellion, and Japan was the first independent Asian country with a multi-party system. Its early postwar democracy was so unruly, with mass demonstrations, militant trade unions, and vigorous left-wing parties, that a deliberate attempt was made to squeeze politics out of the system and impose the boredom of a one-party state.
This happened in the mid-1950s, not for cultural, but for entirely political reasons. Like Italy (perhaps the closest European parallel to Japan), Japan was a front-line state in the Cold War. Domestic conservatives, as well as the US government, worried about the possibility of a left-wing, even Communist takeover.
So a large conservative coalition party (much like the Italian Christian Democrats), funded to some degree by the US, was put in place to marginalise all left-wing opposition. This involved some strong-arm tactics, especially against the unions, but it worked mostly because the middle class settled for an informal deal: increased material prosperity in exchange for political acquiescence. The "LDP state" was based on the promise, given by Prime Minister Ikeda Hayato (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayato_Ikeda) in 1960, that family incomes would soon be doubled.
Increasingly marginalised, the opposition dwindled to an impotent force, mere window-dressing to a one-party state. But one-party rule breeds complacency, corruption, and political sclerosis. In the last decade or so, the LDP – as well as the once-almighty bureaucracy that ran the system – began to look incompetent.
Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1187224,00.html) gave the LDP a last breath of life by promising to reform it in 2001. Whatever he did was not enough. The patience of Japan's middle-class, rocked by economic crisis, finally cracked.
The victorious DPJ may not immediately set off any political fireworks. Its leader, Yukio Hatoyama, is an uncharismatic scion of yet another established dynasty – his grandfather, Hatoyama Ichiro, took over as prime minister in 1954 from Yoshida Shigeru, who was the grandfather of the last LDP Prime Minister Taro Aso.
The DPJ's aims are excellent: more authority to elected politicians, less bureaucratic meddling, more independence from the US, better relations with Asian neighbors, more power to voters and less to big business, and so on. Whether Hatoyama and his colleagues have the wherewithal to achieve these aims remains an open question.
But it would be wrong to belittle the importance of what has happened. Even if the DPJ fails to implement most of its reforms in short order, the fact that Japanese voters opted for change will invigorate their country's democracy. Even if the system were to become something like Japan's democracy in the 1920s, with two more or less conservative parties competing for power, this would still be preferable to a one-party state. Any opposition is better than none. It keeps the government on its toes.
A firm rejection of the one-party state will also reverberate far beyond Japan's borders. It shows clearly that the desire for political choice is not confined to a few fortunate countries, mostly in the Western world. This is a vital lesson, especially at a time when China's economic success is convincing too many leaders that citizens, especially but not only in Asia, want to be treated like children.

• Ian Buruma is the author of Murder in Amsterdam: The Death of Theo van Gogh and the Limits of Tolerance. He is a professor of democracy, human rights and journalism at Bard College. His latest book is the novel The China Lover.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/31/japan-election

Panchito12
09-01-2009, 09:59 AM
A critical question he asked:
Are Asian countries fitting with Western democracy?
What do you think?

Yes Asian countries can operate under Democratic governments.

Rossdobby
09-01-2009, 10:54 AM
he asked if they fit with our political model not if it would work for them

Shuimo
09-01-2009, 11:03 AM
Yes Asian countries can operate under Democratic governments.

Panchito12, you are always why-shy?woot

SBL
09-01-2009, 11:19 AM
Can American-style domocracy work in Asia? Yes it can- South Korea is a great example. But South Korea also has a significant judeo-christian foundation, which allowed ideas like individual initiative and independance to take root and influence popular thinking.

As it stands, Japan is still very much a feudal society, where the notion of the individual does not exist outside professional, familial, and social relations. Cut ties with any of these, and you essentially become a non-person. This sort of thinking only encourages the sort of collectivist-thinking that has allowed the LDP to maintain dominance for the past 54 years. And I would argue that it's largely been a good fit for the Japanese.
The issue today, however, is that the inflexibility of the current political/social/economic system (which really is all the same system), is unable to compete in a dynamic global economy, which has lead to the post-bubble slump, and ultimately, to this latest change in government.

But until there's a real social evolution or revolution in Japan, the political situation is going to remain largely the same, imo.

Shuimo
09-01-2009, 11:38 AM
Can American-style domocracy work in Asia? Yes it can- South Korea is a great example. But South Korea also has a significant judeo-christian foundation, which allowed ideas like individual initiative and independance to take root and influence popular thinking.

Are you saying that adoption of Christian beliefs is necessary for Western democracy to function in an Asian country?



As it stands, Japan is still very much a feudal society, where the notion of the individual does not exist outside professional, familial, and social relations.
What do you mean by feudal?
Feudal is a highly historically-charged term. To apply it to presenday-Japan sounds rather odd!


Cut ties with any of these, and you essentially become a non-person. This sort of thinking only encourages the sort of collectivist-thinking that has allowed the LDP to maintain dominance for the past 54 years. And I would argue that it's largely been a good fit for the Japanese.

The same can be said of the Chinese!
Mind you: Oritental cultures under the influence of Confuciunism all share such feature: emphasis upon the value of the collective unit and groups!
Group-orentation is simply deep in their culture!
I guess to rid them of such collective thinking means removal of their long-standing cultural traditions and beliefs! To do that wud be extremely difficult if not impossible!:bash:




The issue today, however, is that the inflexibility of the current political/social/economic system (which really is all the same system), is unable to compete in a dynamic global economy, which has lead to the post-bubble slump, and ultimately, to this latest change in government.

What promted the Japanese post-bubble slump is certainly open to dipsutes!



But until there's a real social evolution or revolution in Japan, the political situation is going to remain largely the same, imo.


Revolutions in what sense?

the_13th_redneck
09-01-2009, 11:51 AM
Once America's power in the Western Pacific fades, democracy may no longer be healthy in East Asia.

Shuimo
09-01-2009, 12:01 PM
Once America's power in the Western Pacific fades, democracy may no longer be healthy in East Asia.

So democracy hasn't taken root in Asia?

hulaku
09-01-2009, 12:03 PM
So democracy hasn't taken root in Asia?

The largest democracy in the world is in Asia just in case you have forgotten.

Shuimo
09-01-2009, 12:05 PM
The largest democracy in the world is in Asia just in case you have forgotten.

Oh, no, sir!
I must confess I don't regard India as a democracy in the Western sense, though it does copy sth from the West!:)

SBL
09-01-2009, 12:08 PM
Are you saying that adoption of Christian beliefs is necessary for Western democracy to function in an Asian country?
Not the adoption of Christianity per se, but I think Protestantism in particular has played a significant role in the development of 'modern' thinking- i.e. individual responsibilty and achievement, living independantly, liberty as a divine right and so on. I believe this to be true both in Korea as well as in the West.


What do you mean by feudal?
Feudal is a highly historically-charged term. To apply it to presenday-Japan sounds rather odd!
Maybe feudal is the incorrect term. The pre-war social structure is still largely intact- only the focus has changed from militarism to 'economyism' (to coin a phrase), and the cult of the Emperor has been superceded by the cult of 'Japan'.
Most of the changes enacted by the occupation government were either relatively superficial, or allowed to be retroceded by more stabilizing pre-war structures, in efforts to "immunize" Japan against communism.
In short, it's not a progressive society as we've come to understand the term in the west.

The same can be said of the Chinese!
Mind you: Oritental cultures under the influence of Confuciunism all share such feature: emphasis upon the value of the collective unit and groups!
Group-orentation is simply deep in their culture!
I guess to rid them of such collective thinking means removal of their long-standing cultural traditions and beliefs! To do that wud be extremely difficult if not impossible!:bash:
That's my understanding. Although, I have to admit don't know much about Chinese society by comparison.




What promted the Japanese post-bubble slump is certainly open to dipsutes!
Hmm, yes. But you have to understand that Japanese society since the early 50s has been essentially a factory, an economic engine. The Japanese are keen on doing mostly everything in a perscribed manner, and the economic, educational, and political models that brought them so much success from the late 60s onward, have not been tailored or adjusted to meet the demands of a global economic system that rewards individual success and is constantly in flux.


Revolutions in what sense?
In the sense of a social and/or political sea-change. Doesn't have to be violent, necessarily.
The way I see it, Japan can either go the way of China or the way of South Korea. I think (or rather hope) it'll take the latter route, but, as you said, it may require putting to bed some long-held values and traditions.

Panchito12
09-01-2009, 12:09 PM
he asked if they fit with our political model not if it would work for them


fit & operate are interchangeable

hulaku
09-01-2009, 12:11 PM
Oh, no, sir!
I must confess I don't regard India as a democracy in the Western sense, though it does copy sth from the West!:)

Democracy is a form of Government in which the citizens of country elect their representatives by casting their votes. Democracy is concept where you are free to choose your own Government.

Western or not India is the biggest in the sense that in the recent elections 400 million people voted to choose their Government.

You are free to have whatever opinion about anything but that doesnt change the truth.

Please do some research on the Duck Theory.:)

BearInBunnySuit
09-01-2009, 12:29 PM
Are you saying that adoption of Christian beliefs is necessary for Western democracy to function in an Asian country?

Necessary, no but it's a good start.



The same can be said of the Chinese!
Mind you: Oritental cultures under the influence of Confuciunism all share such feature: emphasis upon the value of the collective unit and groups!
Group-orentation is simply deep in their culture!
I guess to rid them of such collective thinking means removal of their long-standing cultural traditions and beliefs! To do that wud be extremely difficult if not impossible!

That is true but it doesn't necessarily mean that Confucian values will hinder democracy from taking root. As SBL pointed out, Korea is a good example. There is a joke amongst Koreans that the Korean society is more influenced by Confucian values than China where Confucius was born. But as hulaku pointed out, democracy in its simplest form means that every person has the right to participate in choosing his/her political leaders.

By the way, lay off the icons if you really want to have a serious dialogue. It's juvenile.


Once America's power in the Western Pacific fades, democracy may no longer be healthy in East Asia.

Interesting. Can you elaborate?

Violet Fashion by Mindy
09-01-2009, 12:49 PM
Not the adoption of Christianity per se, but I think Protestantism in particular has played a significant role in the development of 'modern' thinking- i.e. individual responsibilty and achievement, living independantly, liberty as a divine right and so on. I believe this to be true both in Korea as well as in the West.


Maybe feudal is the incorrect term. The pre-war social structure is still largely intact- only the focus has changed from militarism to 'economyism' (to coin a phrase), and the cult of the Emperor has been superceded by the cult of 'Japan'.
Most of the changes enacted by the occupation government were either relatively superficial, or allowed to be retroceded by more stabilizing pre-war structures, in efforts to "immunize" Japan against communism.
In short, it's not a progressive society as we've come to understand the term in the west.

That's my understanding. Although, I have to admit don't know much about Chinese society by comparison.




Hmm, yes. But you have to understand that Japanese society since the early 50s has been essentially a factory, an economic engine. The Japanese are keen on doing mostly everything in a perscribed manner, and the economic, educational, and political models that brought them so much success from the late 60s onward, have not been tailored or adjusted to meet the demands of a global economic system that rewards individual success and is constantly in flux.


In the sense of a social and/or political sea-change. Doesn't have to be violent, necessarily.
The way I see it, Japan can either go the way of China or the way of South Korea. I think (or rather hope) it'll take the latter route, but, as you said, it may require putting to bed some long-held values and traditions.

American model is not the best model. I would argue Japan is in a much better position to rebound from dire economic crisis then America. Individualism is all well and good to a point. But collectivism does have and in Japans case a proven track record of rebounding in spectacular fashion.

Every nation is different and has different needs.

SBL
09-01-2009, 12:54 PM
American model is not the best model. I would argue Japan is in a much better position to rebound from dire economic crisis then America. Individualism is all well and good to a point. But collectivism does have and in Japans case a proven track record of rebounding in spectacular fashion.

Every nation is different and has different needs.
Comparatively speaking, to in order to be successful in the global economy of today, where information is traded at the speed of light I would argue that yes, the US system is 'better' if only because it allows and encourages flexibility. If the Japanese can manage to be both collectivist and flexible, I say more power to them (see the South Korean example). But as it is today, the Japanese system is too insular and too rigid to compete- initiative is actively squelched in favor of keeping face.

HellToupee
09-01-2009, 01:10 PM
I dunno, Japanese business's are less likely to outsource their peoples jobs to low wage countries, like mine does with all sorts of dodgy methods.

ting
09-01-2009, 05:07 PM
I don't think collectivism vs. individualism is that important in this case. Both methods of viewing your self will have benefits and drawbacks in a democratic system.

The most important thing in my view is to keep money out of politics. Politicians should not get personal gain from their decisions. Money should not equal influence. Hence lobbies should be kept to a minimum or perhaps separated from the financial strength of their backers.

There should also be more than two parties. A two party system suffers from some of the problems a one party system does.

The focus should be on the policy and not the politicians. If to many people are taken in by charm, one could get a poor policy as well.

the_13th_redneck
09-01-2009, 05:26 PM
Interesting. Can you elaborate?

Most of the democracies in this side of the world were inspired and backed by America's influence. Once that fades, democracy may not be so healthy anymore.
First off, the major power in the region, China, is not a democracy and when a country becomes the major power in the area other countries in its vicinity tend to follow suit. Many governments and businesses will start to see the light in an organized economy where the line between government and private sector are blurry. It's not too alien of a concept in a Confucianistic society and the order and stability can appear too enticing to ignore. Although western businesses would hate this, eastern businesses may embrace it.
Sure there will be elements who protest against any sort of change in this direction, but with the main champion of democracy, the US, a whole ocean away, they won't find a whole lot of support. With no US government to put pressure on the local government, the protests could fall upon deaf ears.
Of course it's speculation but it's possible and democracy in this region won't be as firm as it is right now.

King of the Grey
09-02-2009, 07:43 AM
Not the adoption of Christianity per se, but I think Protestantism in particular has played a significant role in the development of 'modern' thinking- i.e. individual responsibilty and achievement, living independantly, liberty as a divine right and so on. I believe this to be true both in Korea as well as in the West.

really? Religion? The last time i checked organized religions tend to hinder the development of so-called 'modern beliefs'. The need for obedience when you are within the religious hierarchy stops a lot of thinking needed for progress.

Back to the topic. Democracy shouldn't be viewed as a 'Western' ideal. It flourished in the West, but the idea that every person should have their say in choosing their government/leader should be universal. The execution, while varying in regions, should stick to uphold that very idea.

For the West, the answer on how to make it work was the separation of power, which relies on all 3 powers to stick to the constitution whilst keeping the others in check.

For Asia, the politics has always and only been Top-Down. Laws are made and changed from the top. I think most Asian countries are now learning the Bottom-Up method(Western democracy), and seeing its advantages and faults. Hopefully they'll develop something thats a mix of both, a system that is unique but also guarantees the basic ideals of democracy.

DS73
09-02-2009, 09:31 AM
I dunno, Japanese business's are less likely to outsource their peoples jobs to low wage countries, like mine does with all sorts of dodgy methods.
Are you kidding?
They started all this mess with making investments in south east Asia. Just check where all these "panasonics" are made.
Research labs in Germany (Darmstadt etc.) and USA, management in eastern USA, financial institutions in NYC and London. Labour/chemically intensive stuff in "cheep" countries. Japan is "globalistic" as a country can get.
One of the essential if not critical problems of japan economy is big number of artificial jobs.
Even in this the europeans weren't the first ones.

The only thing that defines japanese as conservatives, they restrict immigration. So far. So far because the only real limitation is population's xenophobia. People wouldn't understand idea of letting "everybody in".

SBL
09-02-2009, 10:54 AM
really? Religion?
Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

The idea that the individual is responsible and has the right to seek the truth for his or herself is the central idea behind the Reformation and resulting Protestantism. This thinking is also the central idea behind the political, philosophical, and social shifts that lead to the Enlightenment, American and French Revolutions, and so on.

This same principle was what spurred Korean christians and christian organizations to push for independance from the Japanese, as well as the more recent push to transform the authoritarian government.



One of the essential if not critical problems of japan economy is big number of artificial jobs.
Even in this the europeans weren't the first ones.

I wouldn't argue that the problem is 'artificial jobs' so much as that the company is expected to take absolute care of their employees. Total healthcare, housing, sports teams, a guaranteed place in the corporation until retirement, and so on. Just don't rock the boat or embarrass your boss with ideas.
It all makes some exhorbidant overhead and a reluctance towards change.

ren0312
09-02-2009, 11:40 PM
American model is not the best model. I would argue Japan is in a much better position to rebound from dire economic crisis then America. Individualism is all well and good to a point. But collectivism does have and in Japans case a proven track record of rebounding in spectacular fashion.

Every nation is different and has different needs.

I would say that the Japanese model has served it very well, for all of its alleged flaws Japan Inc. has actually managed to keep the peace between labor and capital better than say, the US or the United Kingdom.

ren0312
09-02-2009, 11:44 PM
Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

The idea that the individual is responsible and has the right to seek the truth for his or herself is the central idea behind the Reformation and resulting Protestantism. This thinking is also the central idea behind the political, philosophical, and social shifts that lead to the Enlightenment, American and French Revolutions, and so on.

This same principle was what spurred Korean christians and christian organizations to push for independance from the Japanese, as well as the more recent push to transform the authoritarian government.



I wouldn't argue that the problem is 'artificial jobs' so much as that the company is expected to take absolute care of their employees. Total healthcare, housing, sports teams, a guaranteed place in the corporation until retirement, and so on. Just don't rock the boat or embarrass your boss with ideas.
It all makes some exhorbidant overhead and a reluctance towards change.

It is always a mystery as to why if liberal democacies are the best system for governing people, then why is it that the very best of the Forune 500 companies are run by people like Steve Jobs and Jack Welch, people who run their companies like well, an absolute monarchy.

DS73
09-03-2009, 03:34 PM
It is always a mystery as to why if liberal democacies are the best system for governing people, then why is it that the very best of the Forune 500 companies are run by people like Steve Jobs and Jack Welch, people who run their companies like well, an absolute monarchy.Lol. LOL
:cantbeli:.