Air spring rifle (pellet guns NOT airsoft) shooters/hunters

[Conspectus]

I recently quit the army after a year as a light infantryman and I'm finding great satisfaction in shooting my newly acquired Diana 46 air rifle at the 50m range. The principles of rifle shooting I learned in the army apply to this kind of weapon too and this way I can keep my love of precision shooting alive.

There must be more people like me around here? So far I've only taken it to the range of our local shooting club, and I did some clandestine shooting in the woods but I never tried it for hunting since the caliber (.177) seems to small.

It's perfect for target practice though.

[flanker7]

I used to own a Diana 54 but I gave it away. Great but heavy!
A friend of mine own a Steyr with an air bottle which is accurate up to more than 100m

[Hispeed1]

Pellet guns, BB guns, airsoft BB/pellet guns-same thing buddy.

[Britishhawk]

Pellet guns, BB guns, airsoft BB/pellet guns-same thing buddy.

Well some air rifles are capable of over 1000ft per second, thats more than alot of 9mm weapons. A lead pellet at that speed would do some damage, unlike bb guns they are not toys :)

[Kap]

Pellet guns, BB guns, airsoft BB/pellet guns-same thing buddy.

Pellets are normally shaped, BBs are round. They are not the same thing.

[brainplay]

Precision air rifle shooting is going to be along the lines of other precision competition shooting styles. Many of the same add on's to assist in stabilizing your rifle are the same for small bore rifle shooting but are highly impractical for an infantry rifle. Stances can slightly or wildly different due to rifle layouts and weight distribution. Pellets come in all shapes and sizes. Wadcutters are standard for target shooting. Pointed and hollow points are more along hunting/extermination lines.

The basic caliber is .177 lead pellets but for some limited varmint hunting/extermination there are the .20 and .22 caliber pellets. Some .22 pellet rifles will match the fps of a .22 long rifle cartridge. You'll want to check your state laws as some will designate those as firearms. Benjamin has a decent priced .22 air rifle thats great for varmint extermination or starting off a kid on basic rifle shooting should you have problems getting to a range.

Years ago in highschool JROTC we shot German made spring loaded piston .177 target rifles at school. Yes at school. There are some groups serious about precision air rifle shooting out there and the tech has gone waaay beyond what I was shooting. You might want to search out those forums as they can help you with rifle builds and where to find competitions.

[gaz]

Pellet guns, BB guns, airsoft BB/pellet guns-same thing buddy.

My pre-charged air rifle runs at an air pressure of 2,700 pounds per square inch. It's not the same as an airsoft gun.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3293/img0040ald0.jpg

[Nickchios]

Pellet guns, BB guns, airsoft BB/pellet guns-same thing buddy.

No, they are not...

I have a BSA Super Ten. With 5.5mm pellets you can penetrate a metal barrel at 50 meters. It is very powerful.

In UK you need a firearm license to have one of these.

[digrar]

Pellet guns, BB guns, airsoft BB/pellet guns-same thing buddy.

So we'll be seeing airsoft in the Olympics sometime soon? Dullard.

[Hollis]

My pre-charged air rifle runs at an air pressure of 2,700 pounds per square inch. It's not the same as an airsoft gun.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3293/img0040ald0.jpg


That is one serious air rifle. Very Impressive. What is the FPS?

[simple jumper]

So we'll be seeing airsoft in the Olympics sometime soon? Dullard.

Don't give them any ideas...

[budgie]

So we'll be seeing airsoft in the Olympics sometime soon? Dullard.


Gonna be a tough event to watch if every team wears Multicam...

[digrar]

It's not swimming, they won't allow a suit that is so good it gives an unfair advantage to the wearer. Multicam> all other cam.

[gaz]

No, they are not...

I have a BSA Super Ten. With 5.5mm pellets you can penetrate a metal barrel at 50 meters. It is very powerful.

In UK you need a firearm license to have one of these.

You only need an firearms certificate if it's running at a power level of above twelve foot pounds, if it's below that anyone over the age of (I think) seventeen can buy one from a shop.


That is one serious air rifle. Very Impressive. What is the FPS?

Mine's running slightly below the power level mentioned above so I don't have to get an FAC, with the type of pellets I use that comes out to about 820fps - there's no real need for more than that for Field Target (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_Target) anyway.

[big_les]

Various armies have made use of air weapons with power levels comparable to contemporary firearms (historically I mean) - it's just that chemical firearms are better for fighting wars. And don't need great big air/gas bottles hanging off the bottom of them. For 'varmint' hunting and target use though, they were and are still deadly weapons.

[Nickchios]

You only need an firearms certificate if it's running at a power level of above twelve foot pounds, if it's below that anyone over the age of (I think) seventeen can buy one from a shop.



Mine's running slightly below the power level mentioned above so I don't have to get an FAC, with the type of pellets I use that comes out to about 820fps - there's no real need for more than that for Field Target (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_Target) anyway.

Yes, you are right about the limit of 12 foot pounds in UK...:).

No specific limits about power for airguns in Greece. You have to be over 18 years to own airguns.

Mine is at 40 foot pounds if i remember well.

[big_les]

40 ft/lbs? Sweet Zombie Jesus.

[Nickchios]

40 ft/lbs? Sweet Zombie Jesus.

Yes... it is the export version!!!!:)

It is totally legal here...

It is penetrating a metal barrel in around 50 meters....

The noise it is making is almost like a G3 :):)

I need a silencer but i will never have one, because they are illegal here...

[Hispeed1]

So we'll be seeing airsoft in the Olympics sometime soon? Dullard.

I believe I was misunderstood-what I meant was the general concept of air forcing out a "projectile" (metal pellet/plastic bb) out of said "rifle". Whether it be motorized, compressed air or mechanically shot out. Anyways moving on...

[JJ_BPK]

There must be more people like me around here? So far I've only taken it to the range of our local shooting club, and I did some clandestine shooting in the woods but I never tried it for hunting since the caliber (.177) seems to small. It's perfect for target practice though.

Let your google-foo be your guide,, the force is out there...

I have a modest little BSA .22 cal Lightning, 850 FPS and at 10 yds accurate.

There are those that take it to the max. .50 cal monsters (c attached pics)

These are BB guns,, if that's what you want to call them...

[gaz]

I believe I was misunderstood-what I meant was the general concept of air forcing out a "projectile" (metal pellet/plastic bb) out of said "rifle". Whether it be motorized, compressed air or mechanically shot out. Anyways moving on...

That's an interesting interpretation. Mine would be that you gobbed off about something and were made to look like a dumbass.


I have a modest little BSA .22 cal Lightning, 850 FPS and at 10 yds accurate.

My first air-rifle was a BSA Supersport, the forerunner of your Lightning - I think they're pretty much the same except for barrel length.

[Hispeed1]

That's an interesting interpretation. Mine would be that you gobbed off about something and were made to look like a dumbass.

LOL! Wut? Oh dear-let's move on about these "spring pellet rifles" shall we. Sticks and stones my friend.

[JJ_BPK]

My first air-rifle was a BSA Supersport, the forerunner of your Lightning - I think they're pretty much the same except for barrel length.

The barrel length and the modulator..

Dennis Quackenbush Air Guns,, Good man,, great product..

Some good hunting stories on his site..

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/

Not for his'pee'd,, type 1's..p-)

[Skutatos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

This might be of interest here.

[digrar]

That's an interesting interpretation. Mine would be that you gobbed off about something and were made to look like a dumbass.


Spot on.







..........

[2495]

Mine is at 40 foot pounds if i remember well.

Now that would be a thing of beauty to behold. The Grouse would be getting it long range :)

Pics?

[Ought Six]

One thing to consider with air rifles.... I have an RWS 45 in .177. Its muzzle velocity is 900 fps. There is another RWS model that does not cost much more that has a muzzle velocity of 1100 fps, but I chose the less powerful one. The reason is that when a projectile transitions between supersonic and subsonic velocity, it briefly experiences compressibility when it is slowing down through the speed of sound. That causes turbulence and buffetting, which negatively effects accuracy. For this reason, it best to get an air rifle that has a barely subsonic muzzle velocity (1000 fps), or one that has a much higher muzzle velocity that allows the pellet to remain supersonic out to a fair distance downrange. This is more important with smaller caliber pellet rifles that may be used on small game, where the very small target requires precise shot placement (I use mine to eliminate field rats). This is also obviously a big issue for air rifle target shooters.

[Bro Jangles]

Used to shoot 3 position in high school with this,



i used a .177 cal pressurized air rifle like this. made in the Czech republic and imported thru Daisy.

Avanti Valiant.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm112/bravo-juliet/avanti-valiant-rifle-XS40.jpg

[Superking]

I just recently got into PCP rifles and got myself a Benjamin Discovery .22, which can only be described as an entry rifle into the world of precharged rifles.

It's a really boring rifle with the swedish hammerspring. Only really suited for indoor/low range shooting at 10 joules, but then I ordered myself the original US spring and my oh my...nearly went deaf after a shoot in a closed room. 30 joules is alot more fun and I can't wait to try her out with some ranged shoots.

[JJ_BPK]

..... and my oh my...nearly went deaf after a shoot in a closed room.

DANGER DANGER, WIL SMITH...

Did you use ANY "GUN" oil in the chamber or barrel???

If it was that loud,, and you had smoke,, you might have ignited the residual oil..

very very bad,, can cause serious damage to your weapon,,, worse than shooting yourself in the eye..

Dry patches or dry felt plugs for the chamber and barrel,, or specialty made air gun lubricants.. Airguns use compression seals that can be damaged by petroleum based products. Check your manufacture's suggestions per make/model.

[gaz]

Pre-charged guns are extremely loud at the best of times hence the silencer on mine - you're talking about releasing air at nearly 3,000 PSI through a small hole very quickly.

[Superking]

No worries JJ, I know of the diesel effect. I sell these for a living. My gamo on the other hand has the firebroom effect still after 2000 pellets.

[Corrupt]

I got blooded the other week :D
A flight lefty from the RAF regiment took me hunting while we were on a course and I got a rabbit with his rather gucci air rifle. Learned how to gut it and then made a stew from it that night. Was pretty cool :)

[budgie]

My mate had one growing up and I became a fairly mean shot on paper targets at about 100 feet. Dunno the type but it was one of those with the underbarrel compressor. As I recall it took a lot of power for my puny 12-year-old arms to ****.

[Addled]

Sorry for the ****ty camera phone image:oops: This my my non-FAC Daystate Harrier, Its quite old and could probably do with a service but I'm hoping to get a good haul of rabbits this year.
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8248/harrier.th.jpg (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/harrier.jpg/)

I bought some of these pellets for hunting but after 30ft they seem to be all over the place, I'll stick with the accupells.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3623/predator600.th.jpg (http://img178.imageshack.us/i/predator600.jpg/)

[gaz]

I always used to use accupells back when I shot on a regular basis - I'd happily tolerate the fact that the wind pushed them around to get the minimal drop over long range.

[Red_Fern]

I think pellet guns are great. They're fun and ammo is way cheap!

I primarily use a Crosman 760 with flathead pellets for vermin/pesty bird control around the house. It works great on anything under 100 feet.

I still have my Daisy Red Rider from when I was younger, and despite its low FPS (in comparison with the Crosman, at least) it still works good when my little brother or cousin wants to help "exterminate" or for closer range pests, like the ones that swing over the deck from the elm tree in the back yard.

My friend has a Gamo 1000. It's beast. First time we shot it sounded like a .22 rifle. He's killed squirrels and rabbits with it, and alleges he shot a cat... don't know about that one, though, but I'm sure it'd be good enough to drop one. rofl

[CamoDeafie]

just picked up an ancient Crosman 400 .22 caliber repeater pellet gun from local flea market for the cool price of $10.....it doesnt work, the co2 knob is stuck, i think? anyhow, i will be taking it up to Ollie and Damon;'s shop for refurbishment and repairs, and then once that's done, it'll be a handy little rifle for plinking and possibly hunting if i can :D it is a bolt action, with a separate cocking knob,.....not sure how it works?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

For Rabbits I use an Air Arms S200 in 5.55 I usually put Paragon Z2's 11.5gr through her nice flat trajectory with that light pellet.

[CamoDeafie]

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/CamoDeafie/misc/IMG00185.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/CamoDeafie/misc/IMG00186.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/CamoDeafie/misc/IMG00187.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t70/CamoDeafie/misc/IMG00188.jpg

my Crosman Model 400 repeater, i think this is def a 60s vintage.....fun little gun. its a restoration project for me (need change all seals, SOS cleaning, maybe sandblasting or bluing removal, then refinish the metal, leaving the stock alone)

[Conspectus]

Does anyone have any hunting experience with .177 rifles? I read they are used for pest control all the time but I'm wondering how effective they are at that.

I once saw a friend shoot a pigeon at about 30 metres with a Gamo Whisper. We could distinctly hear the impact and there were feathers flying around but the bird flew off (probably to die hours or days later from injuries or blood poisoning if the pellet went in).

The animal was suffering and there was no way to tell if the pellet bounced off, went in, or even maybe through. So when shooting birds, one should really really be a crack shot first and aim for headshots?

[CMNot]

Used to go ratting on a hangover, one the lads had a .177. Kills rats pretty well, as long as you're not to pissed to get your eye in.

[Conspectus]

Yeah but rats die quickly. Pigeons are tough as hell. Where did you go looking for rats?

[CMNot]

I shoot at a couple of farms. Best advice would be to go out to a few farms, knock on doors, ask if he minds you shooting vermin on his land, strike up some *******. Least, that's how I got started shooting.

Also makes life easier over here to have somewhere you can shoot and someone to vouch for you if you ever want a SGC or FAC.

[Addled]

Yeah but rats die quickly. Pigeons are tough as hell. Where did you go looking for rats?

Papua New Guinea?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8210000/8210394.stm

[Britishhawk]

Does anyone have any hunting experience with .177 rifles? I read they are used for pest control all the time but I'm wondering how effective they are at that.

I once saw a friend shoot a pigeon at about 30 metres with a Gamo Whisper. We could distinctly hear the impact and there were feathers flying around but the bird flew off (probably to die hours or days later from injuries or blood poisoning if the pellet went in).

The animal was suffering and there was no way to tell if the pellet bounced off, went in, or even maybe through. So when shooting birds, one should really really be a crack shot first and aim for headshots?

Ive had a few pot-shots at pigeons, if you dont get them in the neck the pellet just seems to bounce off their breast! Either that or there are quite a few birds with holes in them flying around my town...

[wotsnext]

I bet its 30years since I fired an air rifle, a pal of mine used to have a BSA Airsporter, we broke many a window with it I'm afraid...:oops:

[Red_Fern]

Ive had a few pot-shots at pigeons, if you dont get them in the neck the pellet just seems to bounce off their breast! Either that or there are quite a few birds with holes in them flying around my town...

Knew of one of my grandad's friends who went deer-hunting with a semi-auto M1 Carbine and shot 15 holes through a deer and still didn't kill it. Found it dead two hours later on the other side of the mountain. rofl rofl

[Conspectus]

Knew of one of my grandad's friends who went deer-hunting with a semi-auto M1 Carbine and shot 15 holes through a deer and still didn't kill it. Found it dead two hours later on the other side of the mountain. rofl rofl

Well that's not really funny. The M1's punch is way too low for such an animal. Especially at some distance. So the deer must have suffered

[Red_Fern]

Well that's not really funny. The M1's punch is way too low for such an animal. Especially at some distance. So the deer must have suffered

It wasn't more than 30 yards away from what I heard. My grandad always preferred using a Mosin to get deer. Not now, though...ammo's too expensive.

And yes, I agree from a humane standpoint it's not too funny... but it's a great "Well there was this one time..." story to tell back at the hunting cabin after the day's adventures. p-)

We all like to laugh at one another's hunting shortcomings, all in good fun of course.

Back on topic... I was having a chat with my dad the other day and he told me as a kid, he used to use his Daisy Golden Eagle to kill squirrels and other around-the-house vermin.

[gaz]

I'm not really much of a hunter myself but I know plenty of people who do and they almost all use .177s. To be brutally honest, if you can't hit something like a pigeon in the head at thirty yards then you shouldn't be hunting, you should be on a range practicing.

[Jippo]

I'm not really much of a hunter myself but I know plenty of people who do and they almost all use .177s. To be brutally honest, if you can't hit something like a pigeon in the head at thirty yards then you shouldn't be hunting, you should be on a range practicing.

No not really. That's why you should use a shotgun.

Seriously.

.177 shouldn't be used in hunting. I know it is used, but it shouldn't.

[gaz]

No not really. That's why you should use a shotgun.

Seriously.

.177 shouldn't be used in hunting. I know it is used, but it shouldn't.

Forgive me for being blunt but that's a crock of sh*t.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I'm not really much of a hunter myself but I know plenty of people who do and they almost all use .177s. To be brutally honest, if you can't hit something like a pigeon in the head at thirty yards then you shouldn't be hunting, you should be on a range practicing.I discovered that rabbits can't tell the difference if they have been hit by a .177 @11.5gr or a .22 @11.5 gr p-) Never had the chance to use the .25 on rabbits up close.

[Corrupt]

I was told that .177 is fine for rabbits and the like, but for pigeon you'l need a .22 to get through the feathers (which work like chainmail)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I was told that .177 is fine for rabbits and the like, but for pigeon you'l need a .22 to get through the feathers (which work like chainmail)Some say the .177 with its smaller frontal area and higher velocity work better on pigeons but I just use .22 Paragon Z2@11.5 gr on everything it flies fast and flat but will impart a decent amount of energy on impact. Never get pigeon shooters started on loads your eyes will glaze over and slaver will start running from the corners of your mouth. Most obsessive bunch of shooters ever.

[He219]

Pellet guns, BB guns, airsoft BB/pellet guns-same thing buddy.

Hardly.

Explorers Lewis and Clark carried air rifles, for example.

By 1800 airguns were among the most accurate, and certainly among the most elite, of large-bore rifles! The modern lack of awareness of such guns is understandable when one discovers that airguns were very uncommon, even then. Good airguns have always cost more to make than equivalent quality firearms. The special skills, knowledge, and great amount of time necessary to make the complex valves, locks and air reservoirs of the early airguns meant that only the wealthy shooters could afford them.
http://www.beeman.com/history.htm

Does anyone have any hunting experience with .177 rifles? I read they are used for pest control all the time but I'm wondering how effective they are at that.
I have a scoped early 1970's vintage Winchester .177 and was able to shoot < 3/4" groups at about 125 feet.
It has a muzzle velocity of 1000fps and I used pointed hunting pellets.
Got a lot of head-shots on birds with that setup.

http://www.airgunhunters.com/Gallery5.html

[Addled]

Thanks for that beeman link, that was interesting stuff.

[tea drinker]

DANGER DANGER, WIL SMITH...

Did you use ANY "GUN" oil in the chamber or barrel???

If it was that loud,, and you had smoke,, you might have ignited the residual oil..

very very bad,, can cause serious damage to your weapon,,, worse than shooting yourself in the eye..

Dry patches or dry felt plugs for the chamber and barrel,, or specialty made air gun lubricants.. Airguns use compression seals that can be damaged by petroleum based products. Check your manufacture's suggestions per make/model.
Hmmm, so adding a bit of diesel would probably be a no-no ?

none of ye try it right!

[Jippo]

Forgive me for being blunt but that's a crock of sh*t.

To be blunt it is just cruelty towards animals. I have shot my share of thrush (pests) with a .177 when I was a kid. It doesn't reliably kill them. If you hit the wing, it doesn't penetrate to the vitals but will break the wing, for instance. And it isn't about being big and manly (with yer pellet gun, mind you) and shooting only to the head, cause you won't be able to do it everytime anyway. It isn't ethical as mistakes do happen.

On the other hand a shotgun with even cheap skeet loads is quick and sure way to kill a thrush. For a pigeon, it being bigger, I would up the load a bit.

[Addled]

On the other hand a shotgun with even cheap skeet loads is quick and sure way to kill a thrush. For a pigeon, it being bigger, I would up the load a bit.

Some Canesten will clear that up a treat;-) I wouldn't try and take something like a crow with my pcp rifle (.22) but I have shot pigeons with it before and a head shot isn't needed to kill. And once you have fired your shotgun you have to move on or wait for everything to come back right?

[Jippo]

I had to use a ****ing dictionary because I don't know what the **** this little bastard is in english! :D Feeding them Canesten might work, though.

[wilhelm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

This might be of interest here.

Yes, the Girandoni was actually issued in the Austrian Army.

I know that this is not really related to hunting, but there was an American fellow a few years back who designed a submachinegun that was powered by a pre-charged air tank. If memory serves me correctly, it was in .32 calibre and had an effective range out to about 120 metres and delivered a punch similar to the .32 ACP for just over 100 shots before velocity declined somewhat. It could be fired on single shot or fully automatic.

EDIT: It was a guy called Caselman, and it was fed from a 30 round magazine. I think they were built from plans and weren't factory produced per se. Below is a picture from the net.

[Panzerknacker]

Some picture for the ones whom still have doubts about the "seriousness" of air rifles. small game huntings in the Province of santa Fe and Buenos Aires ( Argentina). the guns are Air Force, Sharks, and Menaldis, all .22 Pre compressed Pneumatic rifles


vizcacha.

http://i31.tinypic.com/qywz2o.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/30ijpdu.jpg

http://i32.tinypic.com/2h4z3gn.jpg


Pigeons by the thousand and some Partrigdes

http://i25.tinypic.com/2rwolz5.jpg


http://i25.tinypic.com/2ngvdpw.jpg


http://i27.tinypic.com/2gxprew.jpg


http://i28.tinypic.com/2meelat.jpg

[Conspectus]

Anyone know any Belgian farmers who would allow me to hunt on their grounds? ;)

[CMNot]

http://i32.tinypic.com/2h4z3gn.jpg


What are these? They look like, "dog rabbits", for want of a better term.


Anyone know any Belgian farmers who would allow me to hunt on their grounds? ;)

Go knock on their doors and ask them if they need anyone to shoot vermin. That's what I did.

[Panzerknacker]

What are these? They look like, "dog rabbits", for want of a better term.

That is vizchacha, a rodent hunted mostly by night.

This is my Hatsan 85X. Nice gun, powerful enough with 223 meter per second with 15 grain pellets, the trigger isnt very good though.

http://i29.tinypic.com/ouo974.jpg

http://i28.tinypic.com/2qcpcv6.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/6p6z2r.jpg

[Dinges]

Great idea for a thread. I've been shooting air-rifles since i was around six-ish.

Personally I own a Falke 90 and Gamo (both .177 or as we call them no.1 , no.2 being .22). The Falke (over 40 years old) will definitely be my favourite of all , having shot a wide variety of air-guns in both target shooting and birding.

Would have loved to put up a couple of pics but alas I am out of country.

I personally believe an air-gun to be the perfect platform for teaching youngsters how to handle a firearm correctly and shooting skills.

Found this : http://canadianguitars.com/falke/

[Panzerknacker]

My new one. Hatsan 88, muzzle velocity 800 fps with one gram pellet ( 5,5 mm) that is 243 mps and 26 joules.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3499/hatsan88001.jpg


http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/244/hatsan88002.jpg


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2443/hatsan88003.jpg


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4246/hatsil3.jpg


and here with the 4x32 mm scope in place.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7702/bosque005.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8660/bosque007.jpg

[armored_diplomacy]

http://i28.tinypic.com/2qcpcv6.jpg



Tiro Federal !
woot

I know that shooting range !

[Panzerknacker]

Tiro Federal !
woot

I know that shooting range !

Tiro Federal de Cordoba to be more accurate. Argentine maybe ? :-)

[armored_diplomacy]

Tiro Federal de Cordoba to be more accurate. Argentine maybe ? :-)

Yes - Tiro Federal Córdoba !

(ha ha ; I even have a similar plastic-box like yours :grin:)

I have a personal issue with those metalic figures :lol:. Damn small and metalic birds !