Special forces during the Vietnam War

[Jooglae]

I was a little interested in the role of the special forces during the Vietnam war, and I thought posting a few pictures I found would be nice. I bet many of you have already seen photos like these before.

Most of the SFs in these photos are rangers, MACV-SOG, or SEALs. I put an NVA photo way down just for fun.

Btw, could someone post some high-quality pics of SEAL teams and USMC snipers during the Vietnam war? They're awfully hard to find.....

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[budanski]

Nice Photos!!

[Haiw]

sweet pics :)

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are my eyes betraying me or does the magazine in the gun held by the second guy from the left look different from the standard 30 round mag?

[dugdug]

I think that is a magazine of Ak-47.

[Dmitri]

Its probably a stupid question, but what is MACV-SOG??

[Jooglae]

Military Assistance Command Vietnam - Studies and Observation Group. They were the so-called "Green Berets", although it was consisted of many special operations forces from the army, the navy, and the air force. Their jobs were highly classified sort of stuff, such as waging guerrila warfare, assassinations, training ARVN special forces, and black bag missions in places such as Cambodia or Laos. That is what I know about the MACV-SOG. Should I be wrong, correct me.

[specialairservice]

What is under the M16 in picture 4?

[James]

I think that CAR-15 has a 40 round magazine.

[Jooglae]

What is under the M16 in picture 4?
It's the XM148 underbarrel grenade launcher, which eventually lost out to the Colt XM203.

And for the weird curved XM177 magazine......From what I know, that magazine was sort of customized by the troops. I don't know how much 5.56mm rounds it would hold, but my guess would be about 30 or more.

[RealUltimatePower]

I think that is a magazine of Ak-47.

No it wouldn't be that since an Ak fires 7.62mm rounds and the M-16, M-4 family rifles fire 5.56 mm.

[FuturePara]

MAC-V SOG weren't the Green Berets. Army Special Forces was. MAC-V SOG drew most of it's personnel from 5th Group however.

And lol, I love that sign in that one pic-"If you kill for fun, your a sadist. If you kill for money your a mercenarcy. If you kill for both your a Green Beret."

[CX20]

Where does it say the Green Beret bit? Unless you've got x-ray vision, that whole bit is obstructed by some guy's shoulder.........

The side profile colour photo of the soldier in OD fatigues firing an M16A1 isn't from Vietnam, it is a recent photo of a soldier involved in OPFOR duties. If you look you can see he is wearing the new LBV vest with his web gear. I've seen that pic before somewhere.

The soldier stood in front of the CCN sign in the 3rd photo from bottom is actually a USMC chopper pilot, I've seen that pic before on their association website. You can see his pilot's wings on his chest.

Other than that, some good pics! The first few of the operators in face paint and jeans with Stoner LMGs are of Darryl Young, an ex-SEAL who served in Vietnam and wrote several books on his experiences.

[REMOV]

"If you kill for fun, your a sadist. If you kill for money your a mercenarcy. If you kill for both your a Green Beret."Khm... a Ranger not a Green Beret, that states the orginal sign on a US LLRP base. It was also (?) the motto of Company H (Ranger) of 75th Infantry (ABN) in Vietnam.

[REMOV]

What is under the M16 in picture 4?A XM148 Grenade Launcher, derived from a SPIW program.
http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/M148.jpg

Colt's Firearms was the first out of the box with their XM-148 launcher. The barrel of the launcher telescoped forward from the receiver of the weapon to load. The barrel latch was a small pistol shaped grip that hinged forward to open the breech. There was a long combination trigger/safety rod attached to the receiver. The hook (trigger) attached to the end of the rod pivoted UP for SAFE and DOWN for FIRE. The triangular plastic handguards of the M-16 were replaced by a sheet metal stamping and a dial sight (similar to an enlarged version of rifle grenade sight) attached to the left side of the launcher for direct or indirect fire. Several hundred XM-148 launchers ere manufactured and evaluated from 1965 to 1967 when it was rejected for the XM-203 launcher. The photo shows an XM-148 launcher attached to the M-177E2 5.56mm submachinegun (aka CAR-15).Source: http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/XM148.htm

[Gringo]

Military Assistance Command Vietnam - Studies and Observation Group. They were the so-called "Green Berets", although it was consisted of many special operations forces from the army, the navy, and the air force. Their jobs were highly classified sort of stuff, such as waging guerrila warfare, assassinations, training ARVN special forces, and black bag missions in places such as Cambodia or Laos. That is what I know about the MACV-SOG. Should I be wrong, correct me.

U mean like the mission in Apocalypse Now to assassinate Col. Kurtz?
Heck of a good film!

[Merik]

standard 30 round mag

During Vietnam the standard mag was a 20-round clip.

[THEDUDE]

Quite a few of those pictures are SEALs. Obviously the one of the operators with the Stoner and the XM148 was also used in large numbers by SEALs. But some awome pictures none the less.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Third photo down appears to be an Australian or New Zealand SAS patrol. The Trooper second from the right carries an L1A1 SLR and appears to be Maori. Excellent Pics. Hood, maybe you want to start an 'historical' photo section.

[Gringo]

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Doesn't this guy kinda remind u of the character Hornster from the PC game VietCong?
"I need to kill me some VC"

[P220ST]

If you're interested in Vietnam era Special Forces you should look for a book called SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1581600585/qid=1059271774/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/002-2886059-7411262) by John L. Plaster. It's a little pricey but I think this is by far the nicest Special Operations book I've ever seen. It is hardcover, 485 pages long, and large size (11.34 x 8.88).

The book is about the SOG Group (Studies and Observation Group) in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam war. This book contains everything and is a wonderful addition to any military history library. Here is the description from the dust jacket.

Back Cover:

The continuing true story of SOG.

This is the book that was never supposed to be published about the secret wars that the U.S. government always denied. It is a companion photo history to Maj. John Plaster's award-winning SOG: The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam.

SOG was the Vietnam War's only covert special warfare unit. It reported directly to the Joint Chiefs--and sometimes even the president himself--and all its missions were "black." So well did SOG keep its secrets that only a handful of Vietnam veterans ever heard of it till long after the war was over, and most SOG men thought their missions would never be declassified. In fact, when SOG was disbanded in 1972, its thousands of photographs and negatives were ordered burned. And there it may have ended.

But some SOG veterans had brought home personal copies of "official" photos taken on operations, along with thousands of snapshots taken by the men themselves. These photographs lay hidden in dusty trunks and shoe boxes around the country for more than 30 years. When Plaster, himself a three-tour SOG veteran, began working on his history of SOG, he contacted hundreds of his secret war comrades and uncovered this wealth of photos. The result is the greatest special operations photo collection ever assembled.

It includes never-before-seen photos of the SOG heroes whose names were only whispered among the few covert warriors who knew their names, SOG's full array of exotic weaponry and devious devices in action, and recon teams on the ground behind enemy lines, as well as the first ever photos of U.S. forgeries of enemy documents. No military book collection is complete without SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars.

Inside cover:

The most highly classified covert operations of the Vietnam War were executed by the innocuously named Studies and Observations Group. Made up exclusively of volunteers from America's most elite special operations units--Army Special Forces, Air Force Air Commandos, and Navy SEALs--SOG roamed along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos, penetrated enemy sanctuaries in Cambodia, and sometimes even struck in the heartland of North Vietnam, all areas supposedly off limits to U.S. ground forces.

This powerful book--filled with more than 700 photos, maps, and captured enemy documents--brings to life the heroic stories of these SOG recon men who put their lives in jeopardy day after day to complete there harrowing missions. Most of these extremely rare and irreplaceable photos have never been seen before. They include:


Recon and HAtchet Forces on the ground
Candid and combat photos of all SOG's Medal of Honor recipients
SOG legends Larry Thorne, **** Meadows, Jerry "Mad Dog" Shriver, David "Babysan" Davidson, Billy Waugh, Walter Shumate, and Col. Arthur "Bull" Simons
Awesome aerial shots of air strikes and teams narrowly escaping the enemy
Lost and missing men, including teams that completely vanished
The Son Tay POW rescue raid, from Stateside training to photos in North Vietnam
Tactics and techniques of SOG recon teams and the NVA
Specialized Air Force and Navy PT boats modified from secret missions
Americans disguised in NVA uniforms
SOG's top-secret "Eldest Son" sabotage program


Anyone interested in special operations and military history is sure to find a wealth of detail and fascinating new information about America's top-secret wars in Southeast Asia. This book at last recognizes the courageous men of SOG and captures combat in the raw: unsurpassed acts of courage and sacrifice, piercing humor, impressive victories in the face of tremendous odds, and terrible losses from unspeakable betrayal. It belongs on the bookshelf of every American.

A portion of the proceeds from this book is being donated to the Special Operations Association's George C. Morton Scholarship Fund to assist the college education of orphans and children of American special operations veterans.

Contents

Introduction

PART ONE: THE SECRET WAR BEGINS
Chapter 1: Colby's Covert War
Chapter 2: Switching Back--SOG is Born
Chapter 3: Shining Brass

PART TWO: THE HO CHI MINH TRAIL
Chapter 4: Unfolding the Mysteries of the Trail

PART THREE: SOG's AIR ARM
Chapter 5: Blackbirds and Night Skies
Chapter 6: Special Helicopters and Special Crews
Chapter 7: FACs and Fighters

PART FOUR: RECON WEAPONS, MISSIONS, AND TACTICS
Chapter 8: Recon Equipment and Weapons
Chapter 9: Recon Missions
Chapter 10: NVA Counterrecon Forces and Tactics
Chapter 11: Recon Tactics and Techniques

PART FIVE: RECON OPERATIONS
Chapter 12: Gettings Teams In and Out
Chapter 13: HALO: The Ultimate Infiltration Technique
Chapter 14: The Recon Ethic
Chapter 15: Into Cambodia

PART SIX: SOG'S HATCHET FORCES
Chapter 16: Hatchet Force Operations
Chapter 17: Operation Tailwind

PART SEVEN: OTHER FRONTS IN THE SECRET WARS
Chapter 18: Bring Light Rescues
Chapter 19: The Greatest Raid of All
Chapter 20: SOG in the Defense
Chapter 21: SOG's Darkest Programs

Afterword
Glossary

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I also recommend the companion book, Sog: The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451195086/qid=1059271774/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-2886059-7411262) also by John L. Plaster.

http://www.psfp.com/viz/SOGbook148.jpg

The companion book tells the story behind the photos in the first book and the evolution of SOG during the Vietnam war.

Back Cover:

Code-named the Studies and Observations Group, SOG was the most secret elite U.S. military unit to serve in the Vietnam War--so secret its very existence was denied by the government. Composed entirely of volunteers from such ace fighting units as the Army Green Berets, Air Force Air Commandos, and Navy SEALs, SOG took on the most dangerous covert assignments, in the deadliest and most forbidding theaters of operation.

Now Major John L. Plaster, three-tour SOG veteran, shares the never-before-revealed exploits of these true American warriors. Here is a minute-by-minute, heartbeat-by-heartbeat account of SOG's stunning operations behind enemy lines--penetrating heavily defended North Vietnamese military facilities, holding off mass enemy attacks, launching daring missions to rescue downed U.S. pilots. From sabotage to espionage to hand-to-hand combat, these are some of the most extraordinary true stories of honor and heroism in the history of the U.S. military.

[Merik]

Thats a nice book I noticed a flaw in the pictures. The page with the big picture of the Huey is wrong. Thats a 212, twin-pack or a -N model. They didnt use those in Vietnam at all. Just something I pointed out lol. woot

[P220ST]

Thats a nice book I noticed a flaw in the pictures. The page with the big picture of the Huey is wrong. Thats a 212, twin-pack or a -N model. They didnt use those in Vietnam at all. Just something I pointed out lol. woot

Good eye. I just looked up that page in my book and the caption also identifies it as a -N model. Here is what it says.

A 20th SOS Green Hornet UH-1N high over Cambodia to avoid antiaircraft fire. (Photo provided by Rick Jalloway)

Below: SOG recon team practices ladder extraction with 20th SOS Huey at CCS. (Photo provided by Alfonso Rivera)

Top far right: Green Hornet Huey lifts away with SOG team on Cambodian frontier, 1970. (Photo provided by Rick Jalloway)

Middle far right: A 20th SOS Huey on the Cambodian border, 1969. It's only emblem is a greet hornet. (Photo provided by Rick Jalloway)

Bottom far right: CCS recon team dons gear beside Green Hornet UH-1F before a covert insertion mission in Cambodia. (Photo provided by Alfonso Rivera)

[gregb]

Haiw wrote


are my eyes betraying me or does the magazine in the gun held by the second guy from the left look different from the standard 30 round mag?

20 round mags were standard for many Combat Rifles of that era , and it wasnt uncommon for Troops in War theatres to Customise their weapon in order to Increase the magazine capacity.
I seen a picture of a royal marine in the Falklands campaign with a BREN gun magazine attached to his L1a1 / SLR for extra magazine capacity.

Aparrently it fits without any modification..........CX20 u might be able to confirm this.....

[front]

http://www.iolfree.ie/~frontacsb/90-20.gif


The CMH has the following book (cover page above) online at this link:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/Vietnam/90-23/90-23C.htm


Vietnam Studies
U.S. Army Special Forces
1961-1971

Cover Image: U.S. Army Special Forces 1961-1971
CMH Publication 90-23
Department of the Army
Washington, D.C. 1989 (First Printed, 1973)

Contents

FOREWORD

PREFACE
PART I The Early Years: 1961-1965

I. INTRODUCTION

The Origin of the Special Forces
The Unconventional Requirements.

II. BEGINNINGS OF THE CIVILIAN IRREGULAR DEFENSE GROUP PROGRAM

The Montagnard Culture
The Buon Enao Experiment
Command and Control During the Buon Enao Period
Early Paramilitary Programs
Operation Switchback, November 1962-July 1963
The Turnover of Buon Enao

III. THE CIDG PROGRAM UNDER THE U.S. MILITARY ASSISTANCE COMMAND, VIETNAM: JULY 1963 MAY 1965

Combat Operations
Logistics
Civic Action and Psychological Operations
The Montagnard Uprising
The 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne)
PART II The Middle Years: 1965-1968

IV. THE CIDG PROGRAM BEGINS TO MATURE

page vii

V. THE COMBINED SPECIAL FORCES CIDG ON THE OFFENSIVE

Intelligence Operations Overhauled
The Tet Offensive: The CIDG Grows Up

VI. UNCONVENTIONAL OPERATIONS
PART III The Latter Years: 1968-1971

VII. THE VIETNAMESE ARMY ABSORBS THE CIDG PROGRAM

Summary by Corps of Combat Activity During 1970
The Stand-Down

VIII. THE BALANCE SHEET

Credits
Debits
The Future of the Special Forces
APPENDICES

A. Chronology of U.S. Army Special Forces, 15 April 1970- 1 March 1971
B. U.S. Army Special Forces Honors
C. List of Special Forces Camps, 1961-1971
D. U.S. Army Special Forces Engineer Activities
E. After Action Report MIKE Force: ATTLEBORO, 1-7 November 1966
F. After Action Report: Operation BLACKJACK 33
G. Chronology of Logistic Events

GLOSSARY

INDEX

[Jooglae]

Thanx for all the good info about the SOG books.

But isn't there a nice book that provides detailed information about Navy SEALs, marines, and most importantly, NVA&Vietcongs?
I've recently acquired some good books on the Vietnam era, but couldn't find good books about SEALs. And there were almost no books on North Vietnamese.(A biography of Ho Chi Minh was all that I could find here)

It would be really thankful if somebody could help me out here.

[front]

"but couldn't find good books about SEALs"


"Seals: Udt/Seal Operations in Vietnam" by T. L. Bosiljevac is a good read.

You can buy it direct from him at his website:

http://www.dobermanbite.com/

cheers

front

[Andyman]

Awesome pics from everyone! I must say if theres anything this sight has to offer its great pictures man oh man. :lol:
If you guys ever wanna check out a really cool war photography book look for "SHOOTING UNDER FIRE" its all post world war 2 and its got some impressive stuff and the photographers have little captions about what was going on when they took the picture and facts about what the media wouldnt let them publish and blah blah blah. But the timeline ranges I think from vietnam to operation enduring freedom no Iraq 2 photos though too bad :petting:

[Beowulf]

I have "shooting under fire" It's a good book. I'm an amateur photographer, just black and white, but I used to process my own stuff.

It was a coffee table book but I had to transfer it to the bookshelf because it's pretty graphic...
All Best
Beowulf

[Andyman]

Thats pretty sweet!! I took a photography course in highschool and thats the closest I've ever been to the world of photography. I must say it is a real art when you capture those moments in time. Such emotion its almost like painting a picture

[Royal]

I seen a picture of a royal marine in the Falklands campaign with a BREN gun magazine attached to his L1a1 / SLR for extra magazine capacity.

Aparrently it fits without any modification..........CX20 u might be able to confirm this.....

The Bren fired .303 ammunition, however many were converted into the LMG in the 1950's - these retained the 30 round mag and were 7.62mm. These were extensively used with the SLR throughout UK forces.

Because the Bren/LMG mag feeds from the top, the springs were a bit weak, we usually got a tame armourer to beef them up a bit. They also needed to be debombed and 'rested' regularly to avoid stoppages.