Innocent but Dead

[Bitogno]

There is a long and remarkable article in the current New Yorker about a man who was executed in Texas in 2004 for deliberately setting a fire that killed his three small children. Rigorous scientific analysis has since shown that there was no evidence that the fire in a one-story, wood frame house in Corsicana was the result of arson, as the authorities had alleged.

In other words, it was an accident. No crime had occurred.
Cameron Todd Willingham, who refused to accept a guilty plea that would have spared his life, and who insisted until his last painful breath that he was innocent, had in fact been telling the truth all along.
It was inevitable that some case in which a clearly innocent person had been put to death would come to light. It was far from inevitable that this case would be the one. “I was extremely skeptical in the beginning,” said the New Yorker reporter, David Grann, who began investigating the case last December.
The fire broke out on the morning of Dec. 23, 1991. Willingham was awakened by the cries of his 2-year-old daughter, Amber. Also in the house were his year-old twin girls, Karmon and Kameron. The family was poor, and Willingham’s wife, Stacy, had gone out to pick up a Christmas present for the children from the Salvation Army.
Willingham said he tried to rescue the kids but was driven back by smoke and flames. At one point his hair caught fire. As the heat intensified, the windows of the children’s room exploded and flames leapt out. Willingham, who was 23 at the time, had to be restrained and eventually handcuffed as he tried again to get into the room.
There was no reason to believe at first that the fire was anything other than a horrible accident. But fire investigators, moving slowly through the ruined house, began seeing things (not unlike someone viewing a Rorschach pattern) that they interpreted as evidence of arson.
They noticed deep charring at the base of some of the walls and patterns of soot that made them suspicious. They noticed what they felt were ominous fracture patterns in pieces of broken window glass. They had no motive, but they were convinced the fire had been set. And if it had been set, who else but Willingham would have set it?
With no real motive in sight, the local district attorney, Pat Batchelor, was quoted as saying, “The children were interfering with his beer drinking and dart throwing.”
Willingham was arrested and charged with capital murder.
When official suspicion fell on Willingham, eyewitness testimony began to change. Whereas initially he was described by neighbors as screaming and hysterical — “My babies are burning up!” — and desperate to have the children saved, he now was described as behaving oddly, and not having made enough of an effort to get to the girls.
And you could almost have guaranteed that a jailhouse snitch would emerge. They almost always do. This time his name was Johnny Webb, a jumpy individual with a lengthy arrest record who would later admit to being “mentally impaired” and on medication, and who had started taking illegal drugs at the age of 9.
The jury took barely an hour to return a guilty verdict, and Willingham was sentenced to death.
He remained on death row for 12 years, but it was only in the weeks leading up to his execution that convincing scientific evidence of his innocence began to emerge. A renowned scientist and arson investigator, Gerald Hurst, educated at Cambridge and widely recognized as a brilliant chemist, reviewed the evidence in the Willingham case and began systematically knocking down every indication of arson.
The authorities were unmoved. Willingham was executed by lethal injection on Feb. 17, 2004.
Now comes a report on the case from another noted scientist, Craig Beyler, who was hired by a special commission, established by the state of Texas to investigate errors and misconduct in the handling of forensic evidence.
The report is devastating, the kind of disclosure that should send a tremor through one’s conscience. There was absolutely no scientific basis for determining that the fire was arson, said Beyler. No basis at all. He added that the state fire marshal who investigated the case and testified against Willingham “seems to be wholly without any realistic understanding of fires.” He said the marshal’s approach seemed to lack “rational reasoning” and he likened it to the practices “of mystics or psychics.”
Grann told me on Monday that when he recently informed the jailhouse snitch, Johnny Webb, that new scientific evidence would show that the fire wasn’t arson and that an innocent man had been killed, Webb seemed taken aback. “Nothing can save me now,” he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/opinion/01herbert.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=Todd%20Willingham&st=cse

That's why I am against death penalty. This guy lost his 3 children and the was executed.:-(

[Skutatos]

So they murdered a guy who's children burned to death around Christmas based on virtually no evidence. Congratulations, thats what I call fine police work!

The fact they had to arrest him to keep him OUT of the fire should have been some indication.

[Aerosoul]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/opinion/01herbert.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=Todd%20Willingham&st=cse

That's why I am against death penalty. This guy lost his 3 children and the was executed.:-(

Pretty much the same reason I am against it, too. Here is a related article, though this is about a guy who was fortunately exonerated, and other exonerees in Texas.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090904/ap_on_re_us/us_exoneree_millionaires

[kitatatsumi]

If I saw some strong evidence, or even an observation, that capital punishment actually drove down the violent crime rates, I might consider supporting it. But I haven't.

[Dominique]

If you want to drive down violent crime, execute more inmates. And I'm dead serious. If a violent offender is dead, there is zero to no chance for him to get out and become a repeat offender. But with that said, I'm all for making sure that the person who's convicted of a capital crime, is actually guilty of it.

[Dragonscript]

I support the death penalty for the simple fact that some people are such a danger to society that they would keep causing harm until they die. All justice systems are flawed and at times the death penalty is applied in cases in my opinion it shouldn't be but that does not negate its necessity.

[Mastermind]

So, would this be the first proven case of an innocent man being sent to death in modern times...say since 1950 or so (...I suppose many before that year)? I have understood that no case of executed felon has ever been proven to be in error...at least, arguably, until this one.

edit: I also do not support the death penalty except in cases of indisputable evidence. Such as video, DNA, etc. I have seen conditions in even the best of prisons...a life there would be hell on this Earth.

[JKD]

Man has his three daughters burn to death, is sentenced to death on a paper thin case, spends over a decade in prison, and is killed for his trouble.
http://i30.tinypic.com/otixyb.jpg

I've always more or less considered myself pro-capital punishment. There are dangerous people out there who are unrepentant and unreformable, but one innocent man being killed is one too many IMO.

[megjur]

It's a tragedy if a mistake was made, however, the penalty is needed because there are some people who just need killing...like Eric Neno

WASHINGTON -- Texas on Tuesday put to death a convicted child rapist and murderer -- the fourth execution this month in the southern US state, the Texas Department of Criminal Justice said in a statement.
Eric Charles Nenno, 47, was administered a lethal injection and declared dead at 6:20 pm (2320 GMT), the department said, without indicating if he made a final statement.
Nenno was convicted in 1996 for the 1995 murder of Nicole Benton, the seven-year-old daughter of a neighbor he abducted during her father's birthday party. Police found the body of the little girl in Nenno's attic. She had been raped, beaten and strangled.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation testified that Nenno, who had previously molested a nine-year-old girl, was a pedophile, who "would be an extreme threat to society" and would be difficult to rehabilitate.
Nenno's was the 13th execution since the start of the year in Texas, which leads all US states in executions -- 418 -- since the US Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976

A link;

http://kidnappingmurderandmayhem.blogspot.com/2008/09/monstrous-crimes-of-eric-charles-nenno.html

If you can give me one good reason why a piece of **** like Eric neno should have the right to take one more breath while this poor little girl is dead I'd love to hear it.

[zad]

It's a tragedy if a mistake was made, however, the penalty is needed because there are some people who just need killing...like the guys involved in the prosecution/murder of this guy.

Fixed for you.

[Aerosoul]

So, would this be the first proven case of an innocent man being sent to death in modern times...say since 1950 or so (...I suppose many before that year)? I have understood that no case of executed felon has ever been proven to be in error...at least, arguably, until this one.

edit: I also do not support the death penalty except in cases of indisputable evidence. Such as video, DNA, etc. I have seen conditions in even the best of prisons...a life there would be hell on this Earth.

I don't know about after someone has been executed but there have been dozens of people exonerated awaiting execution in a lot of different states.


If you can give me one good reason why a piece of **** like Eric neno should have the right to take one more breath while this poor little girl is dead I'd love to hear it.

He doesn't, in a perfect world. But the judicial system should not be executing people when the system has so many failures. If people accept that innocent people are executed so that others who are guilty get executed, too...I find that ridiculous. Especially considering, as far as I can tell, the death penalty does jack sh*t to deter murder.

[megjur]

While you're all rushi ng to claim an inncoent man was killed, let look at the evidence not mentioned in the article;

The event which caused the three childrens' deaths was the third attempt by Todd Willingham to kill his children established by the evidence. He had attempted to abort both pregnancies by vicious attacks on his wife in which he beat and kicked his wife with the specific intent to trigger miscarriages;

2. The “well-established burns” suffered by Willingham were so superficial as to suggest that the same were self-inflicted in an attempt to divert suspicion from himself;

3. Blood-gas analysis at Navarro Regional Hospital shortly after the homicide revealed that Willingham had not inhaled any smoke, contrary to his statement which detailed “rescue attempts;”

4. Consistent with typical Navarro County death penalty practice, Willingham was offered the opportunity to eliminate himself as a suspect by polygraph examination. Such opportunity was rejected in the most vulgar and insulting manner;

5. Willingham was a serial wife abuser, both physically and emotionally. His violent nature was further established by evidence of his vicious attacks on animals which is common to violent sociopaths;

6. Witness statements established that Willingham was overheard whispering to his deceased older daughter at the funeral home, “You're not the one who was supposed to die.” (The origin of the fire occured in the infant twins bedroom) and;

7. Any escape or rescue route from the burning house was blocked by a refrigerator which had been pushed against the back door, requring any person attempting escape to run through the conflagration at the front of the house

http://www.corsicanadailysun.com/opinion/local_story_241210447.html?keyword=topstory

So, he may well have been inncoent of this crime..or not...but apparently he is also not the model loving daddy they're painting him to be. I still think the death penalty is needed. Hmmm still no one to address Eric Neno???

[Dominique]

This guy may have been innocent of killing his family, but he was still a turd who should have never been walking the streets to begin with.

[CG51]

**** him, the world is a better place without him.

[megjur]

More on this poor poor innocent angel brutally killed by the evil Texas rednecks

"testimony at trial demonstrates that Willingham neither showed remorse for his actions nor grieved the loss of his three children. Willingham’s neighbors testified that when the fire “blew out” the windows, Willingham “hollered about his car” and ran to move it away from the fire to avoid its being damaged. A fire fighter also testified that Willingham was upset that his dart board was burned."

and

Final Words:
"The only statement I want to make is that I am an innocent man convicted of a crime I did not commit. I have been persecuted for 12 years for something I did not do. From God's dust I came and to dust I will return so the Earth shall become my throne. I gotta go, Road Dog." He expressed love to someone named Gabby and then addressed his ex-wife, Stacy Kuykendall, who was watching about 8 feet away through a window and said several times, "I hope you rot in Hell, bitch." He then attempted to maneuver his hand, strapped at the wrist, into an obscene gesture. His former wife showed no reaction to the outburst.

hmmm..no mention of his beloved children

and

Neighbors of Willingham testified that as the house began smoldering, Willingham was “crouched down” in the front yard, and despite the neighbors’ pleas, refused to go into the house in any attempt to rescue the children

and


At the punishment phase of trial, testimony was presented that Willingham has a history of violence. He has been convicted of numerous felonies and misdemeanors, both as an adult and as a juvenile, and attempts at various forms of rehabilitation have proven unsuccessful.
The jury also heard evidence of Willingham’s character. Witnesses testified that Willingham was verbally and physically abusive toward his family, and that at one time he beat his pregnant wife in an effort to cause a miscarriage. A friend of Willingham’s testified that Willingham once bragged about brutally killing a dog. In fact, Willingham openly admitted to a fellow inmate that he purposely started this fire to conceal evidence that the children had been abused. Dr. James Grigson testified for the state at punishment. According to his testimony, Willingham fits the profile of a sociopath whose conduct becomes more violent over time, and who lacks a conscience. Grigson explained that a person with this degree of sociopathy commonly has no regard for other people’s property or for other human beings. He expressed his opinion that an individual demonstrating this type of behavior can not be rehabilitated in any manner, and that such a person certainly poses a continuing threat to society.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/willingham899.htm

Poor baby...innocent as a bunny he was

[INAT]

**** him, the world is a better place without him.


Is someone having a bad day?

[CMNot]

How are his previous crimes at all relevant to the crime he was killed for?

Oh that's it, they're not.

[GlassHarp]

Just a thought, but does a lack of evidence of arson necessarily mean that there was no arson?

[megjur]

How are his previous crimes at all relevant to the crime he was killed for?

Oh that's it, they're not.

Just pointing out that he wasn't the poor innocent poster boy the anti death penalty people are painting him to be..he was a sociopathic violent turd and it's not unimaginable that he killed his kds. The experts reviewed photographic evidence..the original fire marshall was at the scene.

[Laconian]

Understand that the level of proof at trial isn't absolute certainty it's beyond a reasonable doubt. That alone tells you there will be some innocent people convicted.

Arson's are tough to work. The scene will tell an investigator a lot, but cause and origin, even for a seasoned investigator is tough work. Cops know arson are committed for a several reasons: profit, to hide evidence of another crime, or gratification of some sort. Since this guy had a record of abuse it is not too much of a stretch for them to start to nose around looking for a motive. It isn't too much of a stretch for them to look close to home, and in this case it looks like they found it.

[pieisawesome]

Read the whole article here:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann?currentPage=all

Sad.

[kitatatsumi]

I am just more concerned with deterring future crimes than I am with making sure the bad guys get whats coming to them. Life in prison is pretty bad. To me, executing an innocent man, no matter how much I disagree with his decisions, is absolutely unacceptable.

[CMNot]

Removing someones freedom for the remainder of their life is a phenomenally strong punishment within societies who treasure freedom above all else (supposedly).

One thing that does really get my goat, at least here in Britain, is sentencing for crime. Life should mean life; not 25 years with the chance at release after 15 on good behaviour.

[Wahnsinn]

Removing someones freedom for the remainder of their life is a phenomenally strong punishment within societies who treasure freedom above all else (supposedly).

One thing that does really get my goat, at least here in Britain, is sentencing for crime. Life should mean life; not 25 years with the chance at release after 15 on good behaviour.

So is executing somebody. Teaching society that murder is wrong by killing someone? Pretty twisted logic if you ask me.

I would totally agree with that point, I would rather a murderer lives for 50 years in prison and dies in there, suffering every day then give them the easy way out and kill them after 12.

[megjur]

So is executing somebody. Teaching society that murder is wrong by killing someone? Pretty twisted logic if you ask me.

I would totally agree with that point, I would rather a murderer lives for 50 years in prison and dies in there, suffering every day then give them the easy way out and kill them after 12.

Yeah, but they don't "suffer every day". They get a/c, heat, 3 square meals, excercise...their victims get to rot in the ground while the victims family get deprived of their loved one and get to mourn every day. Lets look at another piece of **** that Texas got rid of:

Newton Anderson


Newton Burton Anderson, 30, was executed by lethal injection on 22 February 2007 in Huntsville, Texas for murdering a couple while burglarizing their home.
On 4 March 1999, Anderson, then 22, burglarized the Tyler home of Frank and Bertha Cobb. While Anderson was in the house, the Cobbs came home and caught him in the act. Anderson bound both victims' hands and feet with electrical tape and put them on the floor, face down. Using the Cobbs' shotgun, Anderson shot Frank, 60, in the head at close range. He stripped Bertha, 65(*), from the waist down, covered her mouth and nose with electrical tape, and raped her. He also strangled her and shot her numerous times in the head. After murdering the Cobbs, Anderson resumed stealing from their home, then set the house on fire. He fled in the couple's car.
Anderson then drove to the trailer park where he lived with his brother-in-law's nephew. He asked for help unloading clothing and other items, then left. When Anderson returned, he told the nephew that he abandoned the car behind a building off the highway. Officials later discovered the vehicle in the location that Anderson described.
At Anderson's trial, witnesses testified seeing him drive away in the Cobbs' maroon Cadillac. Other witnesses testified that Anderson, who typically had no money, was seen the night of the murders wearing expensive clothing, buying rounds of drinks, and paying generously for a car ride.
Anderson had a prior conviction for burglarizing a home in February 1995. He was sentenced to eight years' probation. When Anderson committed four more burglaries in less than three months, his probation was revoked and he was sent to prison. He was paroled in December 1998. He had been on parole for about three months when he murdered the Cobbs. Anderson also had previous convictions for assault causing bodily injury in a 1994 domestic violence case, and for theft in February 1995. He also had a juvenile record in California.
While in jail, awaiting trial, Anderson obtained a hacksaw blade and used it to cut through an air vent in his cell. During a pre-trial hearing in the courthouse, Anderson cut through his leg restraints with a razor blade and escaped. He also attempted to bribe a correctional officer to leave his cell door unlocked.
A jury convicted Anderson of capital murder in May 2000 and sentenced him to death. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed the conviction and sentence in May 2002. All of his subsequent appeals in state and federal court were denied.
While on death row, Anderson was again caught trying to cut his way out of his cell, earning him the nickname "Hacksaw Red."
In an interview from death row the week before his execution, Anderson admitted his guilt. "I am guilty. I don't deny that ... Witnesses saw me. What can I say?" He said that when he got out of prison after his earlier burglaries, he couldn't find work. "I went back to what I knew how to do. All I knew is how to break into houses." When asked about the killings, Anderson answered, "The rest of my case, I can't explain why."
The Cobb's son, daughter, and nephew attended Anderson's execution. "For all those that want this to happen, I hope you get what you want, and it makes you feel better, and gives you some kind of relief," Anderson said to them as they watched from a viewing room. "I don't know what else to say." Anderson then looked toward another viewing room, where his sister was sobbing. "For those that I have hurt, I hope, after a while, it gets better," he said. Anderson then expressed love to his relatives and said, "I am sorry. That's it. Goodbye." The lethal injection was then started. He was ****ounced dead at 6:17 p.m.

orRobert Anderson


Robert James Anderson, 40, was executed by lethal injection on 20 July 2006 in Huntsville, Texas for the kidnapping, ****** assault, and murder of a 5-year-old girl.
On 9 June 1992, Audra Reeves was walking home from an Amarillo park. As she passed in front of Anderson's house, Anderson, then 26, abducted her and took her inside. After attempting to rape her, Anderson choked her, beat her with a stool, and stabbed her with a paring knife and a barbecue fork. Anderson then took the girl into the bathroom and drowned her in the bathtub. He then placed her body in a foam ice chest and, using a grocery cart to transport it, left it in a dumpster behind another residence. The ice chest containing the girl's **** body was found in the dumpster by a homeowner throwing out his trash.
The person who found the body also witnessed Anderson near the dumpster earlier. Other witnesses reported seeing Anderson pushing a grocery cart along the street, carrying a white ice chest. The witnesses gave a description of the suspect to police, and Anderson was arrested as he was walking back home.
Anderson gave a written confession in which he admitted kidnapping and killing Audra. He said he had recently had an argument with his wife.

Anderson had no prior criminal arrests, but ample evidence was presented at his punishment hearing of his previous ****** assaults on young girls and his violent nature.

His stepsister, Rebekah Anderson, testified that when she was five years old, Anderson had her sit on his lap, then he unzipped his pants and removed her shorts. Rebekah's sister, Delores Davis, testified that when Rebekah was three, she saw Anderson with his hand beneath Rebekah's skirt as she sat on his lap.
Anderson's 11-year-old niece, Charity Anderson, testified that about six months before the murder, Anderson babysat for her and her brother and sister. He frequently invited Charity's 8-year-old sister, Raven, to sit on his lap, and on one occasion, he held her 6-year-old brother, Jeremiah, by the throat for several minutes.
Anderson's biological sister, Myra, testified that Anderson ******ly assaulted her from age 7 to age 13. He forced her to engage in oral *** and attempted to have intercourse with her. Myra also testified that Anderson pushed her down a hill once, and that he once held her down and hit her repeatedly on her knees with a baseball bat.
Another stepsister, Helena Garza, testified that Anderson began fondling her when she was six years old. When she was ten, Anderson forced her to have intercourse and perform oral *** about once a week, for about a year, by striking or threatening her with a baseball bat. Anderson also raped Helena when she was 15 or 16.
Myra's friend, Carla Burch, testified that when she was 12, she spent the night at the Anderson home. She was awakened during the night by someone touching her face. Anderson was standing in front of her wearing only a towel. He had pulled the covers off of Carla and raised her nightgown. He asked her to come to his room, but she refused.
Anderson's ex-wife, Debbie Kay Anderson, testified that Anderson was physically abusive towards her, and that he often padlocked her in their apartment when he left. Debbie also testified that when she was babysitting a 2-year-old girl, she heard the girl crying and walked into the room to see the girl with her diaper removed and Anderson with his pants down. Anderson then grabbed Debbie and began choking and hitting her, telling her not to tell anyone.
A jury convicted Anderson of capital murder in November 1993 and sentenced him to death. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed the conviction and sentence in September 1996. His subsequent state appeals were denied. In March 2004, a U.S. district court denied his federal writ of habeas corpus. Anderson filed an appeal to the U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, but then he decided to waive all further federal appeals. After a psychological evaluation found him competent to waive his appeals, the Fifth Circuit dismissed his appeal in February 2005.
In the competency hearing before U.S. Magistrate Clinton Averitte, Anderson stated that his victim often appeared to him in nightmares. He said that, in prison, he dedicated himself to a Christian way of life, and that God had forgiven him for the killing. "God has granted me peace that I didn't have before," Anderson told Averitte. "I don't want to hurt anybody any longer, and I want to be executed."
and 1 more

Jackie Wilson


Jackie Barron Wilson, 39, was executed by lethal injection on May 4, 2006 in Huntsville, Texas for the abduction, ****** assault, and murder of a 5-year-old girl.
On 30 November 1988, Toni Rhodes awoke to find that her daughter, Maggie, was missing. The window above the child's bed was raised, and the glass was broken from the outside. There was blood on the window ledge and the wall below the window. The curtains were torn and also had blood on them.
Maggie's body was found that morning in Grand Prairie, on the side of the road. She was face down, and her shorts were pulled down, exposing her buttocks. There were tire tracks on the body, with two different tread patterns. The medical examiner found that in addition to being run over, Maggie had been ******lly and anally raped while alive, then strangled and suffocated.
A woman living in the same apartment complex as the Rhodes reported that on the night Maggie was murdered, Wilson, then 22, broke into her apartment through a window and began ******ly assaulting her in her sleep. When she awoke, Wilson offered her drugs in exchange for ***. She ordered Wilson to leave, and he did. When a police officer went to Wilson's residence to question him, he fled.
Investigators located the car that Wilson was driving the night of the murder. The two different kinds of tires on the car were consistent with the two tread marks on the victim's body. Hairs found inside and on the underside of the car were matched to the victim. A bite mark found on the girl's body matched an impression taken from Wilson. Fingerprints found on the pieces of glass from the broken window of Maggie's bedroom were matched to Wilson.
Wilson had a history of fleeing from police, resisting arrest, and giving false information to police, including an instance when he assaulted an officer. During his trial, Wilson asked a deputy to change the position of his handcuffs. When the deputy agreed and removed one cuff in order to change their position, Wilson jerked away and struggled with the deputy until another deputy arrived.
A jury convicted Wilson of capital murder in September 1989 and sentenced him to death. In 1993, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals reversed the guilty verdict because of an error in jury selection. Wilson was convicted by a new jury in June 1994 and sentenced to death again. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed this conviction and sentence in February 1997. All of his subsequent appeals in state and federal court were denied.

and last but not least this useless peice of filth

Derrick Sonnier


Derrick J. Sonnier, 40, was executed by lethal injection on 23 July 2008 in Huntsville, Texas for the rape and murder of a woman and her son in their home.
On 16 September 1991, Sonnier, then 23, raped Melody Flowers, 27, in her Humble apartment. He then stabbed her, strangled her, beat her with a hammer, and stomped on her. Next, Sonnier stabbed Flowers' 2-year-old son, Patrick, to death. He left both of the victims' bodies floating in the bathtub and placed a blanket over them.
That afternoon, neighbors heard Flowers' 1-year-old daughter, Morgan, crying. After they looked inside an open patio door and saw a pool of blood on a bed, they called the police.
Also that afternoon, a neighbor spotted Sonnier, who lived two apartments down from the victim, walking toward a nearby field with a bloody towel wrapped around one hand . Police officers knocked on his door. He answered the door with the bloody towel wrapped around his hand and - before the officers even asked him any questions - said, "I didn't hurt her. I am just here with my daughter." In Sonnier's apartment, police found a bloody blouse belonging to Flowers, and some bloody towels. In the field near the apartments, police found a plastic shopping bag containing bloody clothing belonging to Sonnier. A DNA test showed that Melody Flowers' blood was on one of Sonnier's socks.
Evidence at Sonnier's trial showed that Sonnier had been stalking Flowers for several months. He had peeped into her bedroom, made suggestive comments to her and her teenage niece, and had slipped into her apartment and hid in her closet at least twice. A jury convicted Sonnier of capital murder in February 1993 and sentenced him to death. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed the conviction and sentence in November 1995. All of his subsequent appeals in state and federal court were denied.

I am glad Texas chose to remove these pieces of human debris from this planet. I'm glad here in Texas we have the death penalty..it does act and a deterrence, but that is not the purpose in my opinion. It is a just punishment for these crimes.
Willingham was a sociopathic, pregnant wife beating, animal torturing asshole, and in my opinion, child killer..good riddance.

[Macs.]

So is executing somebody. Teaching society that murder is wrong by killing someone? Pretty twisted logic if you ask me.


Wouldn't putting people in a prison be "twisted logic", too ?

You can't legally kidnap someone and lock him up in a place...

[Wahnsinn]

Wouldn't putting people in a prison be "twisted logic", too ?

You can't legally kidnap someone and lock him up in a place...

@megjur, I personally feel if I didn't have the freedom to do as I pleased then I would suffer greatly, whether I have a television or not.

@Macs.


In criminal law, kidnapping is the taking away or asportation of a person against the person's will, usually to hold the person in false imprisonment, a confinement without legal authority.

A prison sentence isn't kidnap.

We might as well let the criminals run the streets if we can't put them in prison. Taking away their right to freedom is permissible in the name of justice but taking away their life, even if they have taken the lives of others, isn't.

Nobody deserves to die at the hands of a murderer but society cannot lower itself to the level of these people. A death sentence punishes a lot more people than imprisonment does, as the family of the criminal suffer as well and whether or not they are S****bags or not, doesn't mean we have to punish them as well (though one can debate that the victims family suffers the same).

Criminal justice will never be fair as the victims of crime often lose so much more than the perpetrators but taking an eye for an eye isn't really justice, it is raw revenge.

[XShipRider]

This case is not why I turned against the death penalty but it certainly drives the point home. One innocent is too many for a penal system which should always err on the side of innocence or acquittal. People who disagree certainly would not do so if their behind was sitting on death row as an innocent.

Our penal system is driven by emotion or feelings not rational thought. Non-violent criminals serving long sentences...? Does that make any sense? Death penalty determined by 12 so-called "peers?"

[megjur]

People who disagree certainly would not do so if their behind was sitting on death row as an innocent.


People who are opposed to the death penalty certainly would change their minds if it was their child murdered by a piece of useless vermin.

[CMNot]

People who are opposed to the death penalty certainly would change their minds if it was their child murdered by a piece of useless vermin.

How do you know this? You don't.

[XShipRider]

People who are opposed to the death penalty certainly would change their minds if it was their child murdered by a piece of useless vermin.

Agreed, I would certainly want vengeance. My problem is determining absolute guilt. Self-admission supported by evidence could solidify guilt in my mind. DNA might help too. But to put someone to death based on something less than concrete, read professional opinion, I'm not so sure.

Always a tough, arguable subject for sure.

[megjur]

Dead criminal can't escape from prison and kill more people like this guy did

Michael Rodriguez


Michael Anthony Rodriguez, 45, was executed by lethal injection on 14 August 2008 in Huntsville, Texas for the murder of a police officer while on escape from prison.
On 13 December 2000, Rodriguez, then 38, escaped from the maximum-security Connally Prison Unit in south Texas, where he was serving a life sentence for hiring a hitman to murder his wife. Rodriguez made the escape with six other prisoners - Patrick Murphy, 39; Donald Newbury, 38; George Rivas, 30; Joseph Garcia, 29; Randy Halprin, 23; and Larry Harper. They overpowered prison workers, stole guns from the armory, and escaped in a prison pickup that had been modified with a false bottom. They then drove to a nearby store, where Rodriguez's father had left another truck for them.
The leader of the escapees, George Rivas, had a plan to rob a sporting goods store by posing as employees of its security service. After that, the group intended to go to Nevada to rob a casino. Six days later, they were in the Houston area, where they robbed a Radio Shack and an Auto Zone. They also obtained uniforms from a used clothing store.
Eleven days after the escape, on 24 December, the escapees robbed an Oshman's sporting goods store in Irving. Patrick Murphy remained outside as lookout while the others went inside to tie up the employees and gather guns. A woman outside noticed what was going on, and called the police. After stealing one of the employees' Ford Explorer, Murphy drove it to the loading dock and alerted the others via radio that a policeman was coming. Irving police officer Aubrey Hawkins arrived as the robbers were leaving and pulled in behind the Explorer. The men shot him eleven times and ran over him with their getaway truck.
The robbers left with guns, camping equipment and about $70,000 in cash. Rivas purchased a recreational vehicle with the money and, posing as a lawman, bought body armor from a police supply store. The group fled to Colorado and stayed together, living in an RV park near Colorado Springs for about three weeks before they were tracked down. On 22 January 2001, a SWAT team surrounded the gang in the trailer park. When capture was imminent, escapee Larry Harper killed himself. Rivas, Rodriguez, Garcia, and Halprin were captured alive. Murphy and Newbury evaded capture, but surrendered two days later.
A jury convicted Rodriguez of capital murder in May 2002 and sentenced him to death. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals affirmed the conviction and sentence in March 2006. Later, Rodriguez chose to drop his appeals, and was allowed to do so after convincing the courts he was mentally competent.
All five of the other surviving escapees were also convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death. They remain on death row as of this writing. Rodriguez's father, Raul Rodriguez, also pleaded guilty to helping the prisoners escape.
"It was so thrilling that we actually got away with it," Rodriguez said to a reporter during an interview from death row the week before his execution. "But after Mr. Hawkins got killed, and I saw Peter Jennings on the TV news with our pictures, I thought: 'Oh my God. Oh my God, am I in trouble!'"
Rodriguez said that when he saw the police car, he hid under some sleeping bags that the gang had stuffed with stolen guns and money. "I just heard shots - pop, pop, pop. I thought it was the police, but no, it was us," he said. "I'm glad we got caught ... I'm glad it ended when it did. It would have been a mess."
Unlike many other condemned prisoners, Rodriguez had no qualms about dying for his actions. "Look, I'm guilty of what they said - everything." He said he wanted his wife's family and Hawkins' family "to know how truly sorry I am, and I am willing to pay."

So..if this guy had been executed for his first murder...he wouldn't have escaped and killed the cop.....one inncoent victim is too many..the same argument can be made

[Atlantic Friend]

Just pointing out that he wasn't the poor innocent poster boy the anti death penalty people are painting him to be..he was a sociopathic violent turd and it's not unimaginable that he killed his kds. The experts reviewed photographic evidence..the original fire marshall was at the scene.

I'd rather sent people to death row on something an awful lot more solid that "he was a sociopathic violent turd" and "It's not unimaginable that he did it".

[Hollis]

Oh my!! The New York Times published a truthful non-politically motivated article!!

Even for a non-politically motivated article, writers today seem to be great at writing and not very good a knowing what they are writing about.

Have anyone bother to read the sentencing report based on the finding of facts. How about the appeals, have those papers been read?

If he in fact did murder his children than justice was served. If he did not murder his children, then the process needs to be honestly examine to determine why it failed. Jumping to far reaching conclusion neither serves the person in this case or future victims or those accused of the crime.

[megjur]

2 of the appeals:


Willingham v. State, 897 S.W.2d 351(Tex.Cr.App. 1995). (Direct Appeal)
Defendant was convicted of capital murder by murdering more than one person during same criminal transaction after jury trial in the 13th Judicial District Court, Navarro County, Kenneth A. Douglas, J. Defendant appealed, and the Court of Criminal Appeals, White, J., held that: (1) jury could find that defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute continuing threat to society; (2) trial court properly denied defendant's motion for change of venue; (3) trial court properly refused to admit evidence offered by defense to impeach testimony of witness for state; and (4) trial court properly refused to charge jury on effect of parole in punishment phase. Affirmed. Clinton, J., filed opinion concurring in the result in which Maloney, J., joined and Baird, J., joined in part.
WHITE, Judge.
Appellant Cameron Todd Willingham was convicted on August 21, 1992 of capital murder by murdering more than one person during the same criminal transaction. Tex. Penal Code Ann. § 19.03(a)(6)(A). Two special issues were submitted to the jury under Tex.Code Crim. Proc. Ann. art. 37.071 § 2(b)(1) and § 2(e) and following the jury's verdict of guilty, the trial court sentenced appellant to death. Direct appeal to this Court is automatic. Tex.Code Crim.Proc.Ann. art. 37.071 § 2(h). We will affirm.
Appellant brings four points of error for this Court to review. In point of error number one, appellant contends the trial court erred in refusing to grant his Motion for Change of Venue, in light of inflammatory statements made by the Navarro County District Attorney. Appellant asserts in his second point of error that the trial court erred in refusing to admit evidence offered by the defense to impeach the testimony of a witness for the State. In his third point of error, appellant maintains the trial court erred in its charge to the jury during the punishment phase of the trial by failing to instruct the jury on the effect of parole, as parole would qualify as a "mitigating circumstance" under the facts of this case. Appellant contends, in point of error number four, that the evidence is insufficient to support the jury's answers to the special issues submitted in the punishment phase of the trial, particularly: (a) that the evidence is insufficient to support the finding that appellant is a continuing threat to society, and (b) that the evidence is insufficient to support a finding that mitigating circumstances would not warrant a life sentence. Appellant does not challenge the sufficiency of the evidence to support his conviction; therefore, the facts of the offense will be discussed only in reference to the error alleged in point of error number four.
Appellant contends in his fourth point of error that the evidence is insufficient to support the jury's answers to the special issues submitted in the punishment phase of the trial. Although appellant does not argue that the evidence was insufficient to support his conviction for capital murder, a review of the facts and other evidence underlying his conviction is necessary, as this is the information which the jury considered when answering the special issues in the punishment phase of the trial. James v. State, 772 S.W.2d 84, 88 (Tex.Cr.App.1989), 493 U.S. 885, 110 S.Ct. 225, 107 L.Ed.2d 178 (vacated and remanded on other issue); James v. State, 805 S.W.2d 415 (Tex.Cr.App.1990) (on remand); cert. denied, 501 U.S. 1259, 111 S.Ct. 2915, 115 L.Ed.2d 1078 (1991).
The evidence adduced at trial was that on December 23, 1991, appellant poured a combustible liquid on the floor throughout his home and intentionally set the house on fire, resulting in the death of his three children. Amber, age two, and twins Karmon and Kameron, age 1, died of acute carbon monoxide poisoning as a result of smoke inhalation, according to autopsy reports. Neighbors of appellant testified that as the house began smouldering, appellant was "crouched down" in the front yard, and despite the neighbors' pleas, refused to go into the house in any attempt to rescue the children. An expert witness for the State testified that the floors, front threshold, and front concrete porch were burned, which only occurs when an accelerant has been used to purposely burn these areas. This witness further testified that this igniting of the floors and thresholds is typically employed to impede firemen in their rescue attempts.
The testimony at trial demonstrates that appellant neither showed remorse for his actions nor grieved the loss of his three children. Appellant's neighbors testified that when the fire "blew out" the windows, appellant "hollered about his car" and ran to move it away from the fire to avoid its being damaged. A fire fighter also testified that appellant was upset that his dart board was burned. One of appellant's neighbors testified that the morning following the house *355 fire, Christmas Eve, appellant and his wife were at the burned house going through the debris while playing music and laughing. At the punishment phase of trial, testimony was presented that appellant has a history of violence. He has been convicted of numerous felonies and misdemeanors, both as an adult and as a juvenile, and attempts at various forms of rehabilitation have proven unsuccessful.
Maria Tassie Malowney, an Assistant District Attorney for Carter County, Oklahoma, listed the felonies and misdemeanors with which appellant has been charged and/or convicted. She explained that the synopsis of the juvenile offenses cannot be released, but that appellant has been involved in criminal activity since he was fifteen or sixteen years of age. Malowney testified that the felonies of which appellant was convicted are as follows:
1) May 1986: Second Degree Burglary Punishment: probation, placed in a Nonviolent Intermediate Offender Act
2) April 1987: Grand Larceny Punishment: two years probation and 60 days in the county jail
Additionally, misdemeanors for which appellant was convicted are as follows:
1) April 1986: Carrying a Concealed Weapon and Public Intoxication Punishment: 4 days in the county jail and ordered to pay fine and costs
2) May 1986: Entering a Building with Unlawful Intent and Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor (supplying paint for sniffing to a twelve-year- old child) Punishment: ordered to pay restitution, 15 days in the county jail and six months probation, running concurrently
3) November 1986: Two counts of Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor (supplying paint to a twelve-year-old child and an eleven-year-old child) Punishment: 60 days in the county jail
4) November 1988: Driving Under the Influence of Liquor and/or Drugs (substance was paint) Punishment: One year probation on the condition he check himself into an in-patient rehabilitation program for paint abuse.
5) February 1989: Shoplifting Punishment: Probation orders from April 1987 Grand Larceny conviction and November 1988 DUI conviction vacated, sent to a special boot camp program, then given a two year sentence with all but 74 days suspended on the condition he 1) complete a substance abuse treatment program, 2) attend at least one AA or NA meeting per week, and 3) take part in a urinalysis every week and a half.
The jury also heard evidence of appellant's character. Witnesses testified that appellant was verbally and physically abusive toward his family, and that at one time he beat his pregnant wife in an effort to cause a miscarriage. A friend of appellant's testified that appellant once bragged about brutally killing a dog. In fact, appellant openly admitted to a fellow inmate that he purposely started this fire to conceal evidence that the children had recently been abused. Dr. James Grigson testified for the State at punishment. According to his testimony, appellant fits the profile of an extremely severe sociopath whose conduct becomes more violent over time, and who lacks a conscience as to his behavior. Grigson explained that a person with this degree of sociopathy commonly has no regard for other people's property or for other human beings. He expressed his opinion that an individual demonstrating this type of behavior can not be rehabilitated in any manner, and that such a person certainly poses a continuing threat to society.
* * *
The judgment and sentence of the trial court are affirmed.
Willingham v. Johnson, (N.D.Tex. 2001). (Not Reported) (Habeas).
LINDSAY, J.
After making an independent review of the pleadings; files and records in this case; the Findings, Conclusions, and Recommendation of the United States Magistrate Judge, filed July 25, 2000; and Petitioner's Objections to Findings, Conclusions, and Recommendation of the United States Magistrate Judge ("Petitioner's Objections"), filed August 4, 2000; the court concludes that the findings and conclusions of the United States Magistrate Judge are correct, and they are therefore accepted as those of the court. Petitioner's Objections are overruled.
Petitioner made objections regarding the Magistrate Judge's findings that Petitioner did not have the right to represent himself on appeal; that no conflict of interest existed between Petitioner and his appellate counsel; that Petitioner's appellate counsel was effective, although he (counsel) chose not to raise as grounds for appeal that: 1) the trial court struck two venirewomen for cause, 2) the trial court limited Petitioner's voir dire questions, 3) the trial court allegedly failed to follow proper jury selection procedures, 4) the trial court admitted hearsay testimony, 5) a state expert was permitted to give opinion testimony, and 6) a defense witness was allegedly improperly impeached. Petitioner further objected to the Magistrate Judge's findings that evidence admitted during the punishment phase of Petitioner's trial did not violate the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments, that Texas's appellate review of death penalty convictions is constitutional, and that Petitioner was not entitled to a jury instruction on parole.
Upon de novo review of the Magistrate Judge's findings and conclusions to which these objections pertain, it is fairly apparent that the objections regarding self-representation on appeal, the alleged conflict of interest, jury selection procedures, the expert's opinion testimony, the defense witness's impeachment, evidence admitted during the punishment phase of trial, Texas's death penalty appellate review, and the lack of a jury instruction on parole are without merit and should be overruled without further discussion.
The objections regarding whether Petitioner's appellate counsel was ineffective when he did not appeal the trial court's disqualification of the venirewomen, the limitations placed on Petitioner's voir dire questions, and the admission of hearsay testimony appear, at first blush, to have possible merit; however, a more detailed analysis reveals that they also lack merit.
* * *
Petitioner has failed to make a substantial showing of the denial of a federal right. The state court adjudication on the merits neither resulted in a decision that was contrary to, or involved an unreasonable application of, clearly established Federal law, as determined by the Supreme Court of the United States, nor resulted in a decision that was based on an unreasonable determination of the facts in light of the evidence presented in the State court proceeding. Petitioner's petition for a writ of habeas corpus should be DENIED.

IMPORTANT from his appeal:
"Appellant does not challenge the sufficiency of the evidence to support his conviction"

If he didn't set the fire, don't you think he'd challenge the evidence agai ns him that says he did????

From the appeal also
"front concrete porch were burned, which only occurs when an accelerant has been used to purposely burn these areas."

[megjur]

Reading over Willinghams account of the fire I found the following....he was awakened by his 2 year old and saw that there was a fire....he instructed his 2 year old to leave the house....WHAT???? You find your house on fire and you "instruct" your 2 year old to leave the house????? You don't pick her up and carry her out???? Oh come on...this really stretches believability.
oh yes....Beylers report found evidence of lighter fluid on the front porch, but said it COULD have come from spilled fluid from past barbecues...so you can't say for sure that it was arson. This whole "Willingham was inncoent" crap is starting to smell more and more like anti deth penalty BS.

[Laconian]

This looks like the wrong case to get behind as an anti-death penalty case. The evidence looks beyond a reasonable doubt to me.

[Wahnsinn]

This looks like the wrong case to get behind as an anti-death penalty case. The evidence looks beyond a reasonable doubt to me.

Any case works as an Anti-Death penalty when you are against it. I don't believe that the death penalty should be used in a civilised country regardless of the crime.

I bet a lot of people think stoning somebody to death under sharia law is evil and bad but is the electric chair really any better?

[Dominique]

Any case works as an Anti-Death penalty when you are against it. I don't believe that the death penalty should be used in a civilised country regardless of the crime.

I bet a lot of people think stoning somebody to death under sharia law is evil and bad but is the electric chair really any better?

On this we're going to disagree. As I've said, I don't think we use it enough. I worked corrections for years, and there is a percentage of the population that is nothing more than predators, they commit crimes on the streets, and they do the same thing in prison. The only way they can be stopped his to kill them.

[Wahnsinn]

On this we're going to disagree. As I've said, I don't think we use it enough. I worked corrections for years, and there is a percentage of the population that is nothing more than predators, they commit crimes on the streets, and they do the same thing in prison. The only way they can be stopped his to kill them.

I respect your experience in the matter but I honestly don't think there are that many people beyond redemption in this world, maybe my faith in humanity is misplaced, but I honestly don't.

[megjur]

I respect your experience in the matter but I honestly don't think there are that many people beyond redemption in this world, maybe my faith in humanity is misplaced, but I honestly don't.


Ohhhh there's a whole lot of human debris thats way beyond redemption. Just read the examples I posted..lots more where they came from..absolute pieces of sh*t these "people" are. Even if some of them find spiritual redemption and forgiveness for their sins..they still need to pay the price for thier crimes..and for some to only just price to pay is to forfeit their right to live.

[SOG]

If I saw some strong evidence, or even an observation, that capital punishment actually drove down the violent crime rates, I might consider supporting it. But I haven't.

I couldn't care less if it "drives down crime rates". I just think we shouldn't house sick monsters for the rest of their natural lives on tax payer money.

[SOG]

I respect your experience in the matter but I honestly don't think there are that many people beyond redemption in this world, maybe my faith in humanity is misplaced, but I honestly don't.

Scotland is a nice place... I'm not saying that to be an ass but it is very different from even say, America.

It's interesting, my friends sister was exactly like that, benefit of the doubt, criminals are misunderstood or their mommy was a drunk and their daddy diddled them so they HAVE a reason. She's white, married to a black guy, was driving their two kids around in daddies pimped out Cadillac. Gang banger walks up tot he side of the car at a traffic light, points a gun at her face, grabs her by the hair and starts yelling at her to get out of the car. She is ****ting bricks that he will drive off with her kids or they will get hurt. She starts screaming at the kids, they get out, purp drives off.

In one day she had her opinion she held for a lifetime changed. She filed with the police and even went so far as to try and track various parts of the car that were later chop shopped. now she is uber careful and somewhat prejudice. She finally woke up to the fact: It doesn't matter what your story is or how your childhood went. Their is no JUSTIFICATION for what you are doing. I don't know if you feel the same way as her but man from the stories of crimes I have had the misfortune of reading I can easily say we don't execute enough people.

[CMNot]

Scotland is a nice place...

You should visit Glasgow. Beautiful.

[Laconian]

I respect your experience in the matter but I honestly don't think there are that many people beyond redemption in this world, maybe my faith in humanity is misplaced, but I honestly don't.

I envy that you still have faith in humanity. There may not be "that many people beyond redemption," but I'd settle for getting rid of those that are for a start.

[brainplay]

If I saw some strong evidence, or even an observation, that capital punishment actually drove down the violent crime rates, I might consider supporting it. But I haven't.

Deterrence is based on 3 things. Certainty, Celerity, and Severity. Certainty of being caught and prosecuted. Celerity or speed at which the sentence is processed. Severity or how harsh a sentence is given out.

Certainty and Celerity are what keeps the death penalty from being an effective deterrent. Too often a prosecutor will seek a lesser sentence that is a guaranteed win as opposed to the actual death penalty. Celerity is the big one though. Quick and speedy trial only seems to apply to the initial trial not appeals. Instead of cases being given priority and resources the convicted are put on "row" and the resources are rationed out. Hence cases that take decades to complete.

Not the best deterrent with things the way they are. But then the death penalty isn't about serving vengeance. Its about serving out justice. Its about issuing a "penalty" or punishment to match the crime. You need to wrap your head around that if you ever want to understand it.

With the increase in forensic technology that has exonerated many on death row the potential for an innocent to be executed shrinks to miniscule levels. It works both ways.

[Mastermind]

Every murder is heinous. Every taking of a life, is heinous. AS a prison guard, I was naturally privy to some of the most disgusting, horrible information about what people do to each other. My whole family is in law enforcement in some way, active or retired. We have shared. Some things, you can hardly sleep. Children murdered, fathers murdered, mothers, sisters, brothers, grannies...all taken for absolutely nothing. The wreckage these monsters leave behind them is unfathomable. It makes you want to just scream...to cry forever. You feel hollow after reading the cases, talking to the people who did these things...and many of them have not one shred...not a sliver of remorse...many will tell you quite openly how much they enjoyed doing it. I could fill this forum with cases.

The onese that are the most damaging are the ones about the victim children.

How does a society deal with the monsters within? Really? We have seen through history that some societies were positively draconian about punishment...burning people at stakes, beheading them, drawing and quartering them, ripping them on the rack, whipping them to death...yet, still they are there...every step of our way...they are with us.

It would seem, the monsters are part of us. How do you rehabilitate someone who burned his children to death? How do you rehabilitate a wife who put a kitchen knife through her abusive husband's throat? How can you possibly punish a man enough who slaughtered five kids for no reason in a day school? I do not know the answer.

You can murder them back...you can put them away forever in a cell...you can starve them to death...there will always be another one and yet another one.

Slaughtering the monsters is just not an option...it absolutely solves nothing. Supporting them for the rest of their natural life does nothing ...they read, they play cards, they go to school, they mop floors, they watch TV....they essentially get a fully paid retirement plan (especially in modern prisons). Every one of them will tell you that after a few years, prison is not so bad.

Basically, what I am saying is, there is nothing you can do except separate them from the rest of us. How you do that is not important. I believe, personally, killing them is a solution...so long as it is done immediately after the ****unciation of sentence and done publicly. What we do now, giving them fifteen to thirty years on death row is not working at all...Hell, none of us know if we are going to live one more year...but for a court to give a death sentence where the perps know they are going to possibly get a reprieve, that in ten years the SCOTUS might declare death penalty unconstitutional, that some far distant liberal tard of a governor will give blanket commutations (as happened in New Mexico about 1990)...that is just a fking joke of justice. Better to give them a firm, no possibility of parole life sentence than that. Even that is no guarantee...I have know of prisoners on death row actually issuing a damn near successful hit on their victim's families in revenge...yes, from Death Row!.

I think to murder them quickly is correct...but, we are never going to do that. Every death sentence, with all the mandatory, state paid appeals, costs the tax payers more than incarcerating a felon for thirty years. Life sentences...well, thats a big "IF" too...

So really, it is up for no solution for a civilized society. If killing them made just one person who survived them feel good...then kill them...put them on death row.

But, believe me...it makes not one gd damned bit of difference in the long run.

[aavp7a1]

Then don't blame the person, blame the jury who found him guilty, and blame society and the jury for individuals as stupid as they are to return a guilty verdict on that paper-thin evidence.

The Christian-newsome case. Google it.

[Wahnsinn]

I envy that you still have faith in humanity. There may not be "that many people beyond redemption," but I'd settle for getting rid of those that are for a start.

And what have you solved by killing them? Nothing that couldn't be solved by locking them away for years instead of murdering them.

@SOG, justice shouldn't be governed by the cost to the taxpayer, it should be about punishing those that deserve punishment in whatever way society deems acceptable.

I get the feeling that whether the country you live in has the death penalty or not is a big factor in whether you support it. Having grown up in Britain where the Death Penalty isn't used and seems cruel and barbaric, I am against it. But our American cousins, who have grown up with it and see it as normal support it. Am I right?

[Dominique]

I respect your experience in the matter but I honestly don't think there are that many people beyond redemption in this world, maybe my faith in humanity is misplaced, but I honestly don't.

There is always a percentage of the population that are beyond help. They're sociopaths, they could care less about you, or anyone else. They take what they want and if you're not willing to give it to them, they're more than happy to kill or maim you to get it.

[Dominique]

And what have you solved by killing them?
Well for starters, you don't have to worry about them assaulting as staff member, or another inmate. You don't have to worry about them escaping. You're not forcing the taxpayer to support this guy in his old age as his health begins to deteriorate.

[QUOTE=Wahnsinn;4392338]Nothing that couldn't be solved by locking them away for years instead of murdering them.

See my reply above.


@SOG, justice shouldn't be governed by the cost to the taxpayer, it should be about punishing those that deserve punishment in whatever way society deems acceptable.

I agree that justice should be fair, which is why I agree with MM. Executions, should be conducted swiftly, in public, and in the most humane way possible. No hanging out for 15-20 years. If you get convicted and sentenced to death, your appeals get fast tracked; all the evidence should be reviewed independently, and unless they can find a reason to throw out the conviction, the sentence should be carried out within a year to 18 month.


I get the feeling that whether the country you live in has the death penalty or not is a big factor in whether you support it. Having grown up in Britain where the Death Penalty isn't used and seems cruel and barbaric, I am against it. But our American cousins, who have grown up with it and see it as normal support it. Am I right?

That's a possibility.

[Laconian]

And what have you solved by killing them? Nothing that couldn't be solved by locking them away for years instead of murdering them.



You get rid of them, and all the problems they cause. By locking them away you are diverting resources that may be better used elsewhere.

[Wahnsinn]

You get rid of them, and all the problems they cause. By locking them away you are diverting resources that may be better used elsewhere.

I'm more than happy to pay taxes to let them rot. Maybe they do have a cushie life in Prison but if a few of the luxuries are taken away, I'm sure it won't be quite so appealing.

[Hollis]

I'm more than happy to pay taxes to let them rot. Maybe they do have a cushie life in Prison but if a few of the luxuries are taken away, I'm sure it won't be quite so appealing.

In our two culture we have some different. The States being rather young, missed the period of time in Europe when it seemed the death penalty applied to almost every crime and executions where often barbaric and cruel.


Long prison terms may also be just as nasty to the criminal and to who is around the criminal. The criminal is still able to victimize other people.

There is also the choice that the criminal makes when they decide to commit a crime. Then we can add, what about the victim.

There are crimes that are just too barbaric/predatory/inhumane that seems to call for the termination of the life of the perpetrator.

Allowing some to go prison as other problems. As in Mexico, a raid by narcos on a prison freed murderers, why so they can murder again.

In a ideal world, none of this would be needed, but we have some truly evil people out there.

Also as with terrorists, time makes their crimes seem less and they can be traded (Punishment reduced). Lockerbie comes to mind. We also must consider the victims and potential for the perp having more victims.

[Eye]

Then don't blame the person, blame the jury who found him guilty, and blame society and the jury for individuals as stupid as they are to return a guilty verdict on that paper-thin evidence.

The Christian-newsome case. Google it.
We know only some internet info. We don't know records of that case. So don't be so sure that evidence were so thin. I don't suppose that judges are so narrow minded and hungry for blood to sentence people to death without any really important reason.

[Macs.]

You get rid of them, and all the problems they cause. By locking them away you are diverting resources that may be better used elsewhere.

Aren't the costs to carry out the death penality in the US (or better said, the states that still carry it out) higher than simply locking someone away for the rest of his life ? Talking about jamming up resources - These death penality cases get alot of appeals and sometimes take decades to actually get carried out, as far as I understand it.

[megjur]

Then don't blame the person, blame the jury who found him guilty, and blame society and the jury for individuals as stupid as they are to return a guilty verdict on that paper-thin evidence.

The Christian-newsome case. Google it.

Whats does Christian Newsome case have to do with this? 4 POS scumbags commited 2 horrific murders and need to now die for it. Whats your point?

[Mastermind]

Some facts on costs of incarceration in one state (Connecticut)

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0099.htm

In NM all the way back to the last year i was a Corrections Employee, 1998...minimum security was about 24,000, medium security, about 45,000, maximum security level was about 70,000 and death row was about 80,000....just annual costs to keep the felons fed and clothed.

A report issued by the state attny general on total costs to the state and the victims exceeded a million bucks for a life time of petty crime. My sister, a warden ,told me the estimate for last year was past 1.8 million for each life time criminal. That figure, of course, does not include the human suffering.

[Dominique]

Aren't the costs to carry out the death penality in the US (or better said, the states that still carry it out) higher than simply locking someone away for the rest of his life ? Talking about jamming up resources - These death penality cases get alot of appeals and sometimes take decades to actually get carried out, as far as I understand it.

What tuns up the cost of an execution, is how long they drag out some of theses cases, repeatedly going to court to review the same evidence over, and over again is expensive. In VA, they've limited the number of appeals a Death Row inmate can get. Unless he can show he didn't get a fair trail, or some new evidence pops up, they've cut years off the amount of time an inmate sits on Death Row. It's still a few years, as they have to give him time to prepare his defense, and go through all of his appeals, but it's nowhere near the amount of time some states take.

[Wahnsinn]

Aren't the costs to carry out the death penality in the US (or better said, the states that still carry it out) higher than simply locking someone away for the rest of his life ? Talking about jamming up resources - These death penality cases get alot of appeals and sometimes take decades to actually get carried out, as far as I understand it.

I would agree with that.

I don't mind my taxes paying to keep a murder locked up, I pay for lazy s*ites to sit at home and watch Sky, MP's to buy **** and alcoholics to have new livers, criminals are no worse a money sink.

[brainplay]

I would agree with that.

I don't mind my taxes paying to keep a murder locked up, I pay for lazy s*ites to sit at home and watch Sky, MP's to buy **** and alcoholics to have new livers, criminals are no worse a money sink.

You should be fighting to change that, not sitting apathetic about it.


justice shouldn't be governed by the cost to the taxpayer, it should be about punishing those that deserve punishment in whatever way society deems acceptable.

Its not acceptable in the EU but it is here.

[Wahnsinn]

You should be fighting to change that, not sitting apathetic about it.



Its not acceptable in the EU but it is here.

In an ideal world, yes, I would be able to change things. But I can't. Doesn't mean I don't try, you don't know whether I do or not.

I would agree.

[RxOnco]

As was said earlier...this smells like some anti-death penalty garbage to me. This wasn't some black and white, innocent but executed case like the title implies. There's still plenty of questions that are up in the air.

I still ask any of you lifers to give one real example of when a person was wrongfully executed. As was mentioned before, there have been a handfull of cases where a capital conviction has been overturned...but that's why they get 100 f*cking appeals and it takes 20 f*cking years to juice these pieces of sh!t.

All this crap boils down to one's opinion on the death penalty. Either you're for it...or you're against it. Down here in Texas, we love it. We can't get enough of it. I look forward to reading the paper every week to learn that one, two, hell maybe even three or four scumbags have taken the cocktail overnight.

This guy might have been innocent. After years of appeals, he wasn't ever able to prove it. Tough sh!t.

[Niels]

People who are opposed to the death penalty certainly would change their minds if it was their child murdered by a piece of useless vermin.
People who are pro-death penalty certainly would change their minds if it was them being wrongfully sentenced to death.

Down here in Texas, we love it. We can't get enough of it. I look forward to reading the paper every week to learn that one, two, hell maybe even three or four scumbags have taken the cocktail overnight.
Going by your posts, I wonder whose death you wouldn't get an erection for. Maybe you should get help for that.

[Eye]

People who are pro-death penalty certainly would change their minds if it was them being wrongfully sentenced to death.


Are you against road transport because of many lethal casualties of car accidents?
We can't implement perfect legal system, because nothing done by human is perfect, but IMHO death penalty is crucial for any fair legal system. Penalty should be adequate to fault.

[Niels]

Are you against road transport because of many lethal casualties of car accidents?
I don't see how a voluntary act that carries the risk of an accidental death equates to being forced to die.

We can't implement perfect legal system, because nothing done by human is perfect,
And exactly for that reason I believe it's wrong to have the death penalty in a modern society. As long as the probability that an innocent person gets executed is significant, I'd rather have a million criminals sit in a cell all their life (which really isn't a treat) and use up tax money. I wouldn't class keeping dangerous people away from you and me as one of the biggest money wasters.

[brainplay]

As long as the probability that an innocent person gets executed is significant

As pointed out the probability is not as significant with the rise of technology. At this point we are righting some wrongs and maintaining others that were fairly convicted. Forensics works both way.

[Wahnsinn]

As pointed out the probability is not as significant with the rise of technology. At this point we are righting some wrongs and maintaining others that were fairly convicted. Forensics works both way.

No matter how good technology is, mistakes (and corruption you may argue) happen and that can't be risked.

[kitatatsumi]

It seems that my opposition to the death penalty runs along more practical grounds than some type of moral position. If we execute these people, to me, it has to serve a higher purpose and I feel that that purpose should be deterring future crimes. In my opinion that should be the real redeeming value of capital punishment which allows us to kill when we know killing is wrong.
Leaving the victims families with a sense of justice is a good thing and I am sure that it does some real good there. But without a measurable benefit for society as a whole, its revenge and I don't feel comfortable with that.
Not out of empathy for the criminal, but out of a desire to stick to the basic principle that killing is wrong.

[RxOnco]

...But without a measurable benefit for society as a whole, its revenge and I don't feel comfortable with that.
Not out of empathy for the criminal, but out of a desire to stick to the basic principle that killing is wrong.

Joe Criminal kills John Doe.
Joe is convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.
The State of Texas actually follows through on said sentence, and executes Joe.
Joe is no longer around to commit any more murders...or any crimes at all for that matter.

I think that's a pretty measurable benefit.

[hsh2]

If you want to drive down violent crime, execute more inmates. And I'm dead serious. If a violent offender is dead, there is zero to no chance for him to get out and become a repeat offender. But with that said, I'm all for making sure that the person who's convicted of a capital crime, is actually guilty of it.

x2

Sums it up perfectly.

[Eye]

OK, and what about wartime. Do you agree that death penalty is essential to maintain order during the war?

[kitatatsumi]

If it clearly deters others from deserting, which I believe it does, then I have no real problem with it.....but a certain Kubrik film does come to mind.

[timetraveller]

The big question is how much is the man 's relation going to sue the state for and what price do you put on a innocent man ...

Put to death by the state

[timetraveller]

If you want to drive down violent crime, execute more inmates. And I'm dead serious. If a violent offender is dead, there is zero to no chance for him to get out and become a repeat offender. But with that said, I'm all for making sure that the person who's convicted of a capital crime, is actually guilty of it.


Why don't they bring back The Roman's Game of Death


"Gladiators " in the Arena ... whereby those caught fight for there freedom


Now that is entertainment ...

[brainplay]

It seems that my opposition to the death penalty runs along more practical grounds than some type of moral position. If we execute these people, to me, it has to serve a higher purpose and I feel that that purpose should be deterring future crimes. In my opinion that should be the real redeeming value of capital punishment which allows us to kill when we know killing is wrong.

Thats not practical grounds, thats moral grounds. The death penalty is a punishment for a crime committed. Its not revenge. Its not so the victim's family feels closure. Its to punish an individual for a crime committed with what a society deems appropriate. Deterrence is an added bonus. However, in order for deterrence to work the process must be quick and simple rather than long and overly complicated.



Leaving the victims families with a sense of justice is a good thing and I am sure that it does some real good there. But without a measurable benefit for society as a whole, its revenge and I don't feel comfortable with that.
Not out of empathy for the criminal, but out of a desire to stick to the basic principle that killing is wrong.

See above paragraph for the first part. Kitatatsumi you say killing is wrong and many especially from European nations follow that line of thought and compound it with "avoid death at all costs no matter the circumstances". Is there any crime for which you feel someone has forfeited their right to live? Beheading or setting children on fire? Gassing hundreds of people to death in a packed train? Betraying their country by giving away crucial information causing thousands of soldiers to die? If you thought "yes" to any of those then you don't have much of an arguement to use for lesser criminals. You just require stricter guidelines.

[Wahnsinn]

Joe Criminal kills John Doe.
Joe is convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.
The State of Texas actually follows through on said sentence, and executes Joe.
Joe is no longer around to commit any more murders...or any crimes at all for that matter.

I think that's a pretty measurable benefit.

Joe kills John Doe.
Joe is convicted of Capital murder and sentenced to life in prison.
Joe is no longer around to commit any more murders...or any crimes at all for that matter.

@brainplay, I firmly believe no crime should be punishable by death. No exceptions.

[brainplay]

Joe is no longer around to commit any more murders...or any crimes at all for that matter.

Joe will murder, assault, rape, whore, solicit, deal, and extort in prison. His crimes are hidden behind a wall of concrete from the general public but still inflicts them on others. Some less deserving than others.

[Wahnsinn]

Joe will murder, assault, rape, whore, solicit, deal, and extort in prison. His crimes are hidden behind a wall of concrete from the general public but still inflicts them on others. Some less deserving than others.

If you care enough about criminals to let them be executed, why do you care if this happens? In a maximum security prison you won't have your petty little theives and scam artists.

[RxOnco]

I'd much rather kill 'em and not have to pay for them over the next 30-40 years. Plus, that would be one more bed which can be occupied by lesser criminals which, unfortunately, don't qualify for the death penalty.

[Eye]

Joe is no longer around to commit any more murders...or any crimes at all for that matter.


Criminal mates of Joe kidnap and kill innocent people to force Joe's release.

[Wahnsinn]

Criminal mates of Joe kidnap and kill innocent people to force Joe's release.

Wow. I have never heard of anything like that happening. Frightening stuff. :|


@RxOnco, I've said before, criminal justice isn't about the cost to the taxpayer, it is about doing justice.

[brainplay]

If you care enough about criminals to let them be executed, why do you care if this happens? In a maximum security prison you won't have your petty little theives and scam artists.

Strawman redirection not needed here. I take the death penalty very seriously. It is not to be applied except in the gravest capital crimes. Those that commit lesser crimes are due their time or fine as everyone else, no more no less location not withstanding. These punishments are derived from the original common law which has been reinterpreted into our state and federal laws.

I sound like a certain comic book character now. Should I get a shirt with a skull on it?

[RxOnco]

...@RxOnco, I've said before, criminal justice isn't about the cost to the taxpayer, it is about doing justice.

Why not kill two birds with one stone?...so to speak.

[Flagg]

I like the idea of the death penalty in terms of it's potential to prevent crime as well as it's potential to reduce costs(my own personal pet peeve).

The question is does the death penalty do either at the moment?

Does the fear of state execution if convicted of certain crimes have a preventative effect on crime?

Does the death penalty result in any achieved cost savings when taking into account the substantial legal costs?

I'd be a fan of seeing the following:

KEEP capital punishment, but use it only on the very, very, very worst pieces of sh!t.

If prosecution SEEKS the death penalty, it needs to be a 100% "no brainer" and fast tracked across the board with the resources allocated to do so.

"No Brainer" premeditated, cold-blooded rape/murder today...arrested tomorrow....officially charged with a capital offense a few days later......fast track trial in a month found guilty, appeal in two, in hell by Xmas.......if you're going to use the death penalty......make it a guarantee, make it swift, and make sure it's front page everywhere.

For any other piece of sh!t(including the odd innocent that slips through) of nearly similiar calibre, imprison for life in an ultra-low-cost and ultra-low-comfortable environment.

I think there's room for capital punishment, but rather than a long, slow, death row assembly line....make it very lean, make it very swift, make it very personal......if it's as rare as rocking horse sh!t all the better to ensure it's front page news and the risk of an innocent man swinging approaches zero.

[California Joe]

Flagg, these motherf*ckers had better stop taking my pretend name in vain in this thread...

[Dominique]

In a maximum security prison you won't have your petty little theives and scam artists.

Which tells me you have no idea what actually happens in prison. Just because some is in prison, doesn't mean they stop committing crimes.

[Aerosoul]

http://submiturpics.com/images/mi5550g81iveg9d5iqcj.jpg

Link (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates).

[brainplay]

Flagg, read my comments at the top of page 4. That's textbook deterrence policy right there. However, due to the bureaucracy of our legal system its not not currently possible to fast track anything. ACLU would crap bricks if we did and the impending ****storm would scare off any politician.

[Flagg]

Flagg, these motherf*ckers had better stop taking my pretend name in vain in this thread...

Should we execute a couple of them?

If so, we better include an innocent one or two for extra irony points :)

[PrivateBunny]

How are you going to make the amends to the wrongly convicted and executed people?
Death sentence may exist in only perfectly functioning judicial system, which never produce incorrect convictions. Otherwise wrongly made sentence make the social system also guilty in human death. Relatives of wrongly executed person can lose their trust and loyalty to the authorities.

[brainplay]

How are you going to make the amends to the wrongly convicted and executed people?

The same way we make amends to those wrongly incarcerated for decades only the recompense is given to the family. Doesn't bring back the dead guy but neither does it bring back the lost years to someone wrongly incarcerated. Its a bit cold but thats just what happens.

[PrivateBunny]

Dead cannot protect himself. And if judicial system makes mistakes - why i should be more perfect? Maybe it gives me moral right to make same mistakes too? I'm about killing innocent people.
In my vision death penalty depreciate the human life in society. At moral point of view.
Life sentence left the ability to correct the mistake and left hope for person and relatives. This measure also prevents the further possibility of person to commit crime. Life in prison not sweet - and this fact also prevent crimes.

[Wahnsinn]

Which tells me you have no idea what actually happens in prison. Just because some is in prison, doesn't mean they stop committing crimes.

I never said they didn't stop commiting crimes, but I would assume that murderers and petty thieves don't mix in prison and if they do, they shouldn't. I thought it was fairly obvious the point I was trying to put across.

@RxOnco, I certainly don't believe any civilised society should find justice in killing somebody.

I value human life and whilst a murderer obviously doesn't, this doesn't make it right to kill them. I personally think it seems bloodthirsty and morbid wanting more executions.

[Geezah]

If I saw some strong evidence, or even an observation, that capital punishment actually drove down the violent crime rates, I might consider supporting it. But I haven't.

There is no evidence to prove that the death penatly does not act as a deterrent.

Tookie Williams got his, a few years too late for my liking, but he got his.

But but but but, he was nominated for a nobel peace prize(I hear people say)........so was Hitler.......