F-16 taking out terrorists in Fallujah

[American Patriot]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

[seruriermarshal]

That's great !

woot

[Truthsayer]

Nintendo-warriors.

[Fintin]

Nintendo-warriors.

are you still here.... :fork:

[szr]

nice hit.. hope they were all terrorists because that was one helluva hit

500lb bomb it looked like?

[cqbrdy]

i havent heard anything about this,
when was this video taken, do u know?

[uTu]

holy sheit!!! that looks impressive
how can the view from a F-16 rotate like that?

[Makaveli]

O nice given em hell! :P Bomb hit right in the middle of the group and looks like it took all of them out.

[Delta Niner]

I hope that they have a rock solid intel on those people that got hit.

[-Archon-]

holy sheit!!! that looks impressive
how can the view from a F-16 rotate like that?

The video is taken from the aircraft's FLIR/Tareting system. The camera and laser which is used to guide the weapon is able to rotate in 3D so the aircraft can pass the target but still point the laser at it. When the aircraft passes the target it will look like the image is turned around.

[Dennis G]

I hope no innocents were among them, but that was a good shot.


Any other ground combat footage from Fallujah??

[uTu]

holy sheit!!! that looks impressive
how can the view from a F-16 rotate like that?

The video is taken from the aircraft's FLIR/Tareting system. The camera and laser which is used to guide the weapon is able to rotate in 3D so the aircraft can pass the target but still point the laser at it. When the aircraft passes the target it will look like the image is turned around.
cheers!, wow

[Sayeret]

That was a lot people. I didn't realize that the insurgents would stay together in such large groups.

[American Patriot]

Looked like 30-40 of em got whacked so it could be one of the 4 Fallujah strikes directed at Zarqawi. I remember the 2nd or 3rd one claimed around 30 jihadis.

Although the filename CAS.wmv suggests that it was part of the siege in May :|

[MEGR]

That was a lot people. I didn't realize that the insurgents would stay together in such large groups.

I agree.. I don't know. That was a huge ass blast anyways.. What was dropped?

[American Patriot]

I think it might have been a 500 pounder GBU-12 Paveway 2

[szr]

That was a lot people. I didn't realize that the insurgents would stay together in such large groups.

They might have heard the F-16 orbiting their area. And armed with knowledge of prior strikes on insurgent safehouses, they collectively decided that it was best to get the hell out of that building. Result: Large mob of people not really sure where to go other than go in the opposite direction of that building. They'd follow whoever looked like they knew where they were going because jihadists gotta stick together. ;)

[Gameholic]

nice movie..

especially the "dude" word at the end ;)

[ZeroPositive]

still very cool :)

[bertfivesix]

Gotta love whomever was transmitting at the end..

"Oh, dude.." p-)

[American Patriot]

pilot says, "Not a good day for them" at 22 seconds

[Ghostwolf]

pilot says, "Not a good day for them" at 22 seconds

Look at them fly! At least they all get their chances to screw their 72 mothers-in-law :lol:

[Andrekid]

:( :( :( :( R.I.P. :( :( :( :( :(
MORE IRAQ'S WARRIORS DEAD :( :( :(

[platform389]

Excellent...

My favorite, smashed and scambled Raghead... :D

[American Patriot]

:( :( :( :( R.I.P. :( :( :( :( :(
MORE IRAQ'S WARRIORS DEAD :( :( :(

Taken from Forum Rules..

1. Don't use tons of :bash: :fork: :slap: in your posts.

[deutschersoldat]

idiots

[He219]

idiots
Exactly my thoughts. Walking together with weapons and RPG's in a Perfect Target formation. Suckers!

Thanks for sharing that with us, American Patriot.

p-)

[Macs.]

Bah F16, a Apache could have done that job better. p-)

[ShotOver]

That's unreal, note the heavy increase in the pilots breathing after the impact, shows a slight increase of emotional stress, haha.

Must be a strange feeling blowing up 30 people.
Good job though :D

[seruriermarshal]

:( :( :( :( R.I.P. :( :( :( :( :(
MORE IRAQ'S WARRIORS DEAD :( :( :(

They are terrorists , do you understand ?



:bash: :bash: :bash:

:fork: :fork:

[Deuterium]

:( :( :( :( R.I.P. :( :( :( :( :(
MORE IRAQ'S WARRIORS DEAD :( :( :(

Or more vicious killers of Iraqi children and women getting their just deserves... You take your pic.

[deutschersoldat]

idiots
Exactly my thoughts. Walking together with weapons and RPG's in a Perfect Target formation. Suckers!

Thanks for sharing that with us, American Patriot.

p-)

ich werd dir gleich ma was bei amerikanische Patriot ^^

[cold0]

That's unreal, note the heavy increase in the pilots breathing after the impact, shows a slight increase of emotional stress, haha.


It's simply the effect of the incresing G-load on the F-16 pilot.


Bah F16, a Apache could have done that job better.

No, absolutely. The Apache cant' carry a 500 lb. bomb and its' slower, noiser and visibler than an jet fighter. To obtain a similar effect an AH-64 must use a salvo of rockets, so it must go nearer and lower to the Iraqi, giving tham enough time to disperse in the near buildings.

[tuckerhat]

Just wondering, how does a strike like this work? ie, did a drone pick out the crowd and see their were weapons? or is it called in from the ground?

[seruriermarshal]

Just wondering, how does a strike like this work? ie, did a drone pick out the crowd and see their were weapons? or is it called in from the ground?

I think in there have information .

[ChuckThunder]

I've seen the video before and from what I understand those insurgents were on thier way to replace other insurgents that were already fighting.

[cold0]

Just wondering, how does a strike like this work? ie, did a drone pick out the crowd and see their were weapons? or is it called in from the ground?

There's no difference; it's possible that an UAV has located the crowd, zoomed on them, identified them as hostile, and called the F-16 (probably on station near Falluja) to strike them. The F-16 can "paint" them with its laser pod or use the UAV targeting laser.

The same thing happens with a combat controller on the ground. In this case the controller uses a targeting laser to designate the targer for the aircraft.

[aartamen]

I laughed, and laughed . . .

[MEGR]

That's unreal, note the heavy increase in the pilots breathing after the impact, shows a slight increase of emotional stress, haha.


It's simply the effect of the incresing G-load on the F-16 pilot.


Bah F16, a Apache could have done that job better.

No, absolutely. The Apache cant' carry a 500 lb. bomb and its' slower, noiser and visibler than an jet fighter. To obtain a similar effect an AH-64 must use a salvo of rockets, so it must go nearer and lower to the Iraqi, giving tham enough time to disperse in the near buildings.

I agree. Apaches are cool and all, but they are low flyers. One Apache against what, 40 insurgents is not a fair match. The Insurgents would've shot that thing down easily. F-16 was the right choice, and the terrorists never saw it coming.

[aartamen]

Ahhhh, no. Not easily, and probably not at all. Especially if this stuff was going down at night. It could hose them with cannon and rocket fire from well beyong their ability to respond. He can put a round through you and you can't even hear him yet. He would not have been as effective, though. Not to mention efficient.

[LordHalbert]

That was a cool video - loved it.

Is there a higher resolution video of this ?

[MEGR]

Ahhhh, no. Not easily, and probably not at all. Especially if this stuff was going down at night. It could hose them with cannon and rocket fire from well beyong their ability to respond. He can put a round through you and you can't even hear him yet. He would not have been as effective, though. Not to mention efficient.

Good point. You never know what these dudes are packing. There have been instances where helicopters were shot down by small arms in Iraq. Killing all of 'em in one big bang, was better than doing gun runs from a chopper.

[aartamen]

Oh, there's no question they could bring an AH-64 down. It is just not likely.

[Fioraon]

This show was brought to you by.... The American Tax Payer. :lol:

[cold0]

The point is to kill them all en masse, without change for them to disperse. You can even make an stand-off attack with an Hellfire missile or more, but it's an anti-tank weapon, no so effettive against a concentration of enemy infantry. The first missile probably could kill 3-4 of them and wound some others but this will leave the survivors with enought time to react (probably escape). The Apache could use, as I have said, a salvo of rockets, but it must te closer and, during day time, cleary visible. During a night battle the Iraqi could cleary listen the rotor sound of the approching AH-64, they don't know the location of the AH-64 but they can always run.

See the use of Israel helicopters/fighters in the last two years and the description of the close support of OH-6s in Black Hawk Down.

[tuckerhat]

the f-16 is a 1 seater? does that mean the pilot is flying the plane while guiding the bomb?

[LordHalbert]

From what I understand about LGB, the pilot usually moves the cursor onto the target and then the pilot attempts to lock onto the target.

Once locked, the laser designator camera tracks the target automatically - unless something breaks the lock such as clouds or if certain parameters are out of range (gimbel limits, etc ..).

It appears that the pilot in the video is actually making manual adjustments though. I'm not sure if the pilot actually even made a lock since the target was moving and it's shape (a mass of people) is not easy to lock on to (for computers).

I'm no expert here, so feel free to correct me.

[cold0]

Correct, LordHalbert

A pilot can points and drops a laser guided bomb even in single- seater fighter. Cleary his workload is greater than in some specializated attack aircrafts: this is reason because the marines have ordered the 2-seaters F/A-18D 8witn a specialized WSO) as strike aircraft.
In a "no-treats" scenario as in Falluja (no AAA, no SAM and out MANPAD range), it's not a big a problem for a lone fighter pilot to "paint", lock and drop a GBU-12, expecially if helped by UAV or a ground controller as in this engagement.

[Fargin]

o-dude.

[Far]

Good shot. nice bomb to dead guy ratio....

[usa320]

the f-16 is a 1 seater? does that mean the pilot is flying the plane while guiding the bomb?

Usually the airplane flies itself while the pilot moves the crosshair onto the target and locks it up. Once that is done he can pickle the bombs and roll off of the target on his own.

Letting the autopilot maintain altitude and heading while the pilot locks the target up relieves the workload for the pilot.

Of course if it were a dense threat environment the pilot probably would continue to do both, as evassive action may be necessary, and the AP cant do that for him.

Some planes (F/A-18F/D, F-15E, F-16D) Have a WSO in the back to worry about the bombs so the pilot can concentrate on flying.


Judging by the video this plane was flying fairly low...probably under 5,000 feet.

[szr]

That's unreal, note the heavy increase in the pilots breathing after the impact, shows a slight increase of emotional stress, haha.

Must be a strange feeling blowing up 30 people.
Good job though :D

Also, if you follow the little white dot that tracks through the gun camera footage, indicating the direction the flir is looking, relative to the plane, you'll notice that after impact, he banks to the left. So he could have been pullin' some G's. :)


From what I understand about LGB, the pilot usually moves the cursor onto the target and then the pilot attempts to lock onto the target.

Once locked, the laser designator camera tracks the target automatically - unless something breaks the lock such as clouds or if certain parameters are out of range (gimbel limits, etc ..).

It appears that the pilot in the video is actually making manual adjustments though. I'm not sure if the pilot actually even made a lock since the target was moving and it's shape (a mass of people) is not easy to lock on to (for computers).

I'm no expert here, so feel free to correct me.

The flir in this sort of application doesn't lock on to a heat source or visual characteristics of the target. Instead, the computer basically locks on to a point in space, and the computer constantly updates the direction the camera is pointing, to compensate for aircraft movement. You can move the the target position manually, while lasing, though imputs on the MFD.

[Uncle Chô]

Good shot. nice bomb to dead guy ratio....
$20,000 is the average production cost of a single GBU-12.

To compare, a Tomahawk is between $800,000 and $1 million per unit...

[Sorbas2000]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?

[UkrainianAmerican]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?
Because they are terrorists you dumb faggot.

[seruriermarshal]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?

A example :

you go to there , if no reason , they kill you then they are terrorists !

[uTu]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?
IMHO a resistance fighter, would be what you would call someone in the right. these people are morally wrong - they do not stand/fight for a just society as defined by centuries of cultural development, and they practise terrorism to achieve what they want - some half arsed/tribal/religious/sexist... nightmare backed by the threat of death.

[Truthsayer]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?

A example :

you go to there , if no reason , they kill you then they are terrorists !

No reason?

I'm not defending them, but trust me, they have many reasons...

[Uncle Sam]

You really don't hear or see much about air support in Iraq. So this video was excellent!

[cqbrdy]

This show was brought to you by.... The American Tax Payer. :lol: stay tuned......

[ZeroPositive]

god they are in no way resistence fighters go there say hi and I am sure they would hold u hostage and cut ur head off :)

[Midav]

idiots

Ja, das waren Idioten. So viele Leute zusammen.... Perfektes ziel ;)

[Chuckie]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?
Because they are terrorists you dumb faggot.

HAHA! Great Response RA.

SoreAss: Why would you ask such a stupid question?

[BusterHyman]

Or better yet why is your ass sore? Nevermind I don't wanna know.

[Deuterium]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?

For the same reason we don't call Nazis resistance fighters.

[LordHalbert]

Does anyone have a high resolution version !!!

Somebody must have it !!

[wyrm_142]

You really don't hear or see much about air support in Iraq. So this video was excellent!

Unless the video is relased to the press (with all the #'s blurred out) the video is classified to the same level as the Air Tasking Order which generated the mission (however there's nothing 'displayed' that is sensitive).

For example, the target Coords (in MGRS) are in the mid-upper left (38S LB 8462 9186). Slant range to target is that 15---' number on the upper right (he wasn't at 5000' AGL - more like 15,000')

[cropduster]

For the same reason we don't call Nazis resistance fighters.

Nope! You can't call the Nazis resistance fighters as they were in power. Should they resist against themselves??? :bash:

The word resistance fighter is absolutely unlinked to the fact if they are good guys or bad guys. They just oppose the party in power, thats all. Nazis were never resistance fighters for logical reasons!!

[Ratamacue]

We call them terrorists because the majority of casualties in Iraq today are civilian casualties caused by attacks by your so-called "freedom fighters." Go ahead and ask Argyll, he knows what's going on over there.

[Kilgor]

"owned"

woot

[Andrekid]

Sorbas2000 wrote:
American Patriot wrote:
mirror 1
mirro2

Sorry if this has been posted before.


why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?


For the same reason we don't call Nazis resistance fighters.



But you called American resistance in Independence War of RESISTANCE FIGHTERS, the same for the french resisntance IIWW. The only difference is who tell the history or who write the history or who won the war.
But in Iraq this "terrorists" fight againt a one of more power country of the world, that invade other country with out support o UN .
About Nazi, The USA today is very similar to WWII Germany , when the Nazis invaded Poland, France.

And the resisntance of this country murdered many nazis.

[aartamen]

They are guerillas. How's that? A guerilla can have a negative meaning. "Marxist guerillas" for instance.

Terrorism has a definition (even though not all agree on it). It's use or threat of use of violence against civilians to attain a political goal by a sub-national entity. If, for a second, we assume that these particular mofos were only after killing armed people, they do not qualify as terrorists. Sorry.

It's a good thing they died, though, whatever their classification was.

Oh, btw, they are nominally "resistance fighters". They fight and they resist. Unlike "terrorist" or "querilla" that definition has no widely accepted meaning.

[Tengu]

But you called American resistance in Independence War of RESISTANCE FIGHTERS, the same for the french resisntance IIWW. The only difference is who tell the history or who write the history or who won the war.
But in Iraq this "terrorists" fight againt a one of more power country of the world, that invade other country with out support o UN .
About Nazi, The USA today is very similar to WWII Germany , when the Nazis invaded Poland, France.

And the resisntance of this country murdered many nazis.My grandparents who were in the resistance and the army during ww2 would laugh their ass off. Compairing nazi's with coalition soldiers and resistance fighters during ww2 in europe with terrorist scum.

[MEGR]

American resistance fighters didn't blow up their own people with car bombs, and mortars.

[Andrekid]

That time, didn´t have cars, and mortars (1789). But the american patriots of indepebndence killed the american that gave support to british troops

[szr]

That time, didn´t have cars, and mortars (1789). But the american patriots of indepebndence killed the american that gave support to british troops

Seeing as at that time everyone had similar ethnic heritage and America wasn't a a sovereign country yet, people were distinguished as either with the British Empire or with the the Colonies seeking independence. People who assisted the British were most likely to be jailed. Others, who were accoused of treasonist related crimes, would have been killed, but there was never the kind of savagery commitied against innocent people caught in the middle, as there is in Iraq. American soldiers were not cutting off hands and gouging out the eyes of people who may have allowed the British to camp out on their land or provide them with some milk and wheat or something.

[Sorbas2000]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?
Because they are terrorists you dumb faggot.

Calm down, kiddy!

[Sorbas2000]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?

A example :

you go to there , if no reason , they kill you then they are terrorists !

Before US war against Iraq there was no terrorists acts, then coalition forces were attacked and now even Iraqis are attacked. BUT: As a member of a coalition force, I can't go there without no reason...the reason would be my presence!

US army and coalition forces are (were) occupants and equal to terrorists, because they acted without UN mandate.

[aartamen]

Oh yeah, sure.

[henksmoeder]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?
Because they are terrorists you dumb faggot.

:bash: simple mind. You can see who is a terrorist in that video. You can't see a difference between a child and an adult on such a video, let alone the difference between a resistance fighter (terrorist for you americans) and a civilian.

[percell_086]

have you not been reading the posts about the UAV's and the groundcontrollers???henk'smoeder??
What you think kids would go on a fieldtrip in a city where their was fighting going on?? :bash:

Percell

[chauncy republicans]

have you not been reading the posts about the UAV's and the groundcontrollers???henk'smoeder??
What you think kids would go on a fieldtrip in a city where their was fighting going on?? :bash:

Percell
Thats not even what he was trying to say! :cantbeli: Maybe you should take a reading comprehension course, and re-read the post. :backhand:

[henksmoeder]

have you not been reading the posts about the UAV's and the groundcontrollers???henk'smoeder??
What you think kids would go on a fieldtrip in a city where their was fighting going on?? :bash:

Percell

First of all, yes, kids do run around militiamen, look at photos of the israeli-palestinian conflict.

Second of all, Do you think they can identify every single one of them in the time that a group of 20 + people runs from building to building? No they can't.

[Deuterium]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?

A example :

you go to there , if no reason , they kill you then they are terrorists !

Before US war against Iraq there was no terrorists acts, then coalition forces were attacked and now even Iraqis are attacked. BUT: As a member of a coalition force, I can't go there without no reason...the reason would be my presence!

US army and coalition forces are (were) occupants and equal to terrorists, because they acted without UN mandate.

Completely clueless... You live in a dreamworld. Have a nice day.

[szr]

US army and coalition forces are (were) occupants and equal to terrorists, because they acted without UN mandate.

UN lolz

[anonymous individual]

That is why you should avoid to travel in large group.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

Nintendo-warriors.

Hey, if it keeps our soldiers from taking casualties, then so be it.

[seruriermarshal]

mirror 1 (http://members.cox.net/winston_wolf/CAS.wmv)
mirro2 (http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/stuff/CAS.wmv)

Sorry if this has been posted before.

why don't call them resistance fighters instead of terrorists!?

A example :

you go to there , if no reason , they kill you then they are terrorists !

Before US war against Iraq there was no terrorists acts, then coalition forces were attacked and now even Iraqis are attacked. BUT: As a member of a coalition force, I can't go there without no reason...the reason would be my presence!

US army and coalition forces are (were) occupants and equal to terrorists, because they acted without UN mandate.

Before Iraq war , terrorists to the world , from more support terrorists countries (including Iraq) . They are wait , wait attack world (like 911). Now , allies don't give those terrorists time !

[aartamen]

Ok, the sentiment is appreciated.

[Truthsayer]

Nintendo-warriors.

Hey, if it keeps our soldiers from taking casualties, then so be it.

Of-course, but the comment was somewhat refering to his "o-yeah" of enjoyment.

He just killed 20+ people and he had a field-day.


"I just killed some 80 people in a game and are having a blast."

As I said, Nintendo-warriors.

Many could be seen during the beginning of this war even amongst the ground-troops (have movie of soldiers shooting iraqi soldiers and lauging) and didn't end until they themselfs started taking daily casualitys.

[szr]

Of-course, but the comment was somewhat refering to his "o-yeah" of enjoyment.

One problem though... He never said "o-yeah" :cantbeli:

He said "Oh dude..." Go watch it again...

[Truthsayer]

Of-course, but the comment was somewhat refering to his "o-yeah" of enjoyment.

One problem though... He never said "o-yeah" :cantbeli:

He said "Oh dude..." Go watch it again...

You are correct, was some days ago I saw it.

I stand corrected, but my point still stands.

[n4292936]

can we please differentiate between resistance fighters (rebels, insurgents or whatever you want to call them) and terrorists. The former are those who attacks coalition soldiers and military targets because they consider their presence unjust, the latter are people like Zarqawi who use car bombs to kill civilians and create an atmosphere of panic and chaos for their political ends. Taking arms up against an occupation does make one a terrorist! Lets be intelligent about our use of the word "terrorist" mmkay :| ;)

[SeanAshi]

Taking arms up against an occupation does make one a terrorist! Lets be intelligent about our use of the word "terrorist" mmkay How about heavily armed hooligans?

[Vance]

have you not been reading the posts about the UAV's and the groundcontrollers???henk'smoeder??
What you think kids would go on a fieldtrip in a city where their was fighting going on?? :bash:

Percell

First of all, yes, kids do run around militiamen, look at photos of the israeli-palestinian conflict.

Second of all, Do you think they can identify every single one of them in the time that a group of 20 + people runs from building to building? No they can't.
If kids were in that mix of people, I say it's too damn bad for them. They shouldn't of been in the middle of 30+ armed men during a battle.

[n4292936]

Taking arms up against an occupation does make one a terrorist! Lets be intelligent about our use of the word "terrorist" mmkay How about heavily armed hooligans? Only if they're English soccer hooligans ;)
I just think we need to remember that terrorists employ certain tactics. Not everyone who violently opposes the occupation uses tactics of terror. Remember it is a tactic, not an ideology. A Shiite radical who aims an RPG at a military Humvee is no terrorist - a radical who aims that same RPG at a convoy of a newly appointed government minister on his way to work is a terrorist. In the present conflict, I believe, a distinction can be made. That does not, however, mean that one is any less a virulent problem than the other. Both must be combated, but we must understand the enemy in order to fight them properly.

[iflu]

Taking arms up against an occupation does make one a terrorist! Lets be intelligent about our use of the word "terrorist" mmkay How about heavily armed hooligans? Only if they're English soccer hooligans ;)
I just think we need to remember that terrorists employ certain tactics. Not everyone who violently opposes the occupation uses tactics of terror. Remember it is a tactic, not an ideology. A Shiite radical who aims an RPG at a military Humvee is no terrorist - a radical who aims that same RPG at a convoy of a newly appointed government minister on his way to work is a terrorist. In the present conflict, I believe, a distinction can be made. That does not, however, mean that one is any less a virulent problem than the other. Both must be combated, but we must understand the enemy in order to fight them properly.

agreed, but it seems that the same group of men conduct both. :lol:

[n4292936]

Taking arms up against an occupation does make one a terrorist! Lets be intelligent about our use of the word "terrorist" mmkay How about heavily armed hooligans? Only if they're English soccer hooligans ;)
I just think we need to remember that terrorists employ certain tactics. Not everyone who violently opposes the occupation uses tactics of terror. Remember it is a tactic, not an ideology. A Shiite radical who aims an RPG at a military Humvee is no terrorist - a radical who aims that same RPG at a convoy of a newly appointed government minister on his way to work is a terrorist. In the present conflict, I believe, a distinction can be made. That does not, however, mean that one is any less a virulent problem than the other. Both must be combated, but we must understand the enemy in order to fight them properly.

agreed, but it seems that the same group of men conduct both. :lol: I think in many cases this is true but there is a fundamental difference between people like Zarqowi and his subordinates, and former bathists, and shiite militias. Ideologically they are disimilar, and they work towards different ends to a certain extent. As far as their tactics are concerned, the shiites seem content to simply oppose US forces directly. Others seem intent on doing this both indirectly by employing classic bombing tactics, and directly by ambushes or suicide bombs. That the lines are blurring is I think a reflection of the assymetry that the Iraqi insurgents must necessarily engage US forces with if they expect any sort of positive outcome. They seem to be acutely aware that America's foreign policy and military exposure is highly politicised, and many of these attacks are designed to exploit that fact. This does NOT at all mean that American detractors of the war are playing into the hands of the terrorists. Dissent is and always will be part of the democratic process of free nations. However, it is telling of the level of sophistication the enemy is employing - if indeed they can ensure the UN is too casualty-shy to have a presence, and that coalition members abandon Iraq, they make the US position increasingly untenable, or at least more unilateral and difficult. What they don't seem to realise is that by doing this they are probably either prolonging the US presence or merely destroying the future prospects of their own country - probably both.
On a final note, we should also understand the qualitative difference in motivation and MO that foreign fighters bring to the game versus local insurgents. They are completely different animals.

[Fargin]

What ever they were, they are no more.

I wouldn't call them terrorists or freedom fighters, I'd call them disassembled.

[Tengu]

First of all, yes, kids do run around militiamen, look at photos of the israeli-palestinian conflict.

Second of all, Do you think they can identify every single one of them in the time that a group of 20 + people runs from building to building? No they can't.There are a lot more ppl there than just the F-16 pilot and the uav controller :cantbeli: . And collatorol damage; HEY thats war. At least they try not to kill civilians unlike those terrorists.

[Kilgor]

If kids were in that mix of people, I say it's too damn bad for them. They shouldn't of been in the middle of 30+ armed men during a battle.

some people have trouble grasping that concept.

:cantbeli:

[American Patriot]

If civilian human shields die along with terrorists who is to blame, the terrorists or coalition?

[Swedish_Marine]

Definitions:

Terrorist: A person who wishes to achieve a political or religious goal by harming or killing civilian people or sabotaging civlilian infrastructure. Ergo, the people attacking and killing civilian people are terrorists.

Guerilla/Freedomfighter: A group of people or combatants who wishes to acheive a political or religious goal by attacking military targets only. Causing no nessessary harm to civilian people. Normally these may be considered to be legal combatants and are supposed to be treated as POW:s if they are captured and have the same rights as soldiers of a nation´s army under the laws of the Geneva Convention.

This means that the Iraqi people who attack American soldiers are not terrorists if acts of terrorism can not be proven. So please stop calling them terrorists if you can´t post any evidence on acts of terrorism by these freedomfighters/Guerilla-soldiers. Not all of them attack civilians.

[aartamen]

But we can assume the worst. Besides, as it waspointed out, they are all dead.

[Chuckie]

have you not been reading the posts about the UAV's and the groundcontrollers???henk'smoeder??
What you think kids would go on a fieldtrip in a city where their was fighting going on?? :bash:

Percell

First of all, yes, kids do run around militiamen, look at photos of the israeli-palestinian conflict.

Second of all, Do you think they can identify every single one of them in the time that a group of 20 + people runs from building to building? No they can't.

I beleive that the decription of this video stated that the people running down the street were going to help their terrorist buddies who were engaging US troops.

Second, it isn't the US's problem that the terrorists decide hide amongst women and children and use them as shields

I think it's unfortunate whenever innocents are killed, but you are making it sound like the F16 bombed a group of kids running towards an Ice Cream Truck!

[Seoulstriker]

Excellent, excellent video. One of the dreams of a pilot is to drop a mk-82 on a croud full of terrorists. :)