Discuss Obama's speech to Congress on healthcare reform...

[RxOnco]

I found that Obama is just as good as ever at being an orator and a salesman. However, he failed to meet any substantive requirements whatsoever.
He said that a public option wasn't the be-all-end-all. Later, he backtacked.
He said that he would veto any bill that would add one dime to the deficit. Whaaaaat? How in the hell does he expect this to happen? The CBO said that this was not possible.
This was a very partisan specticle. A handfull of points received bipartisan ovation. The vast majority saw a bunch of Dems standing and clapping, and a bunch of Republicans sitting on their hands.

I'm not sure who it was, but I admire the balls on whoever it was that called Obama a liar in the midst of his speech.

I think the part about Tort Reform was a joke, and Obama looked like he knew it.

And lastly, who didn't guess that he would close by invoking Old Ted's spirit to try one last rally for support? Pretty pathetic.

[Winger]

It was quite fail. Honeymoon is over. The whole effort is going to flop. I'm all for some reform but his(their) plan is not the way.

[wild_wild_wes]

I'm not sure who it was, but I admire the balls on whoever it was that called Obama a liar in the midst of his speech.

Joe Wilson:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=164783

But here is my summation of Obama's speech:

“Let me be clear: You’ve heard all of this sh*t already.”

[Deus Proeliator]

It was quite fail indeed. I can only hope that he will be a one term president. I hope all of those that voted for him and thought he was the best thing since sliced bread's eyes are finally opened because this guy doesn't have a clue. I am just stating my opinion not to start a flame war here.

[Alpheus]

“Let me be clear: You’ve heard all of this sh*t already.”

"Aye, and none of it makes any sense."

[Van Gogh]

you guys pretend like he's not actually trying to do something good for your ass. he's trying to get the government healthcare rolling based off the same costs used in private healthcare. he's just going to change it over. if it doesn't add a dime to the deficit we can always reverse what was done.

[wild_wild_wes]

Perhaps the most ludicrous part of the speech came at the end, when Obama brought up poor Teddy Kennedy's great unfulfilled lifelong quest, and dying wish: Universal Healthcare, then tried to conflate it with the nation's....character.

We must enact socialism....to honor the memory of Ted Kennedy's....character.

Kennedy....Character.

Mary Jo Copechne could not be reached for comment.

[Alpheus]

you guys pretend like he's not actually trying to do something good for your ass. he's trying to get the government healthcare rolling based off the same costs used in private healthcare. he's just going to change it over. if it doesn't add a dime to the deficit we can always reverse what was done.

No, he's trying to kill private healthcare.

Step 1) Create a public plan.
Step 2) Prevent private insurance companies from creating or modifying insurance plans. You get sick, your premiums stay the same = bankrupt insurers.
Step 3) Every is forced onto the public plan.
Step 4) Public plan adds to the debt, is run inefficiently and healthcare suffers.

But hey, who knows, you might get lucky and have healthcare run like the post office.

[budgie]

The Obamacare plan is certainly overcomplicated.

Public healthcare, as expensive as it might be for the govt, is relatively simple. Create a resevoir of money so that the poor and otherwise uninsured can get affordable or subsidized healthcare. Those who can afford better hospitals will do so through private health plans as they've always done. It won't create much competition for efficient mega-insurers and there's no need for the govt to over-regulate or try to manage the affairs of these private insurers.

This plan is going to fail because it directly threatens big business. Simply offering a public plan by itself would have been quite enough.

[wild_wild_wes]

Why should I be forced to pay for someone else's health care, just because the government says they deserve it more than me? Show me a poor person, and I will show you the lifestyle choices they make that keeps them poor.

A public plan would be a direct threat to all private healcare, eventually, because the government can always undercut private insurers, as the government has unlimited access to a source of endless money: the earnings of the American taxpayer.

Here are some solutions for you:


Tort Reform
Medical Savings Accounts
Catastrophic Medical Insurance


....none of which will ever get past the Democrats. Why?

The Democrat party is owned by the trial lawyers. Kathleen Sebelius, Obama's Health Secretary, was Director of the Kansas Trial Lawyer Association for 10 years, fer crissakes!

Personal savings accounts are out too, of course, because they encourage individual responsibility and competance, both of which are anathema to Democrats.

[Kaplanr]

No, he's trying to kill private healthcare.

Step 1) Create a public plan.
Step 2) Prevent private insurance companies from creating or modifying insurance plans. You get sick, your premiums stay the same = bankrupt insurers.
Step 3) Every is forced onto the public plan.
Step 4) Public plan adds to the debt, is run inefficiently and healthcare suffers.

But hey, who knows, you might get lucky and have healthcare run like the post office.

Step 2. Tough ******* on the insurers. Formula seems to work in Germany and elsewhere.

[USMCRTop]

[QUOTE=wild_wild_wes;4400756]Show me a poor person, and I will show you the lifestyle choices they make that keeps them poor.

I am so sorry but that statement shows so much ignorance that I can't even begin to address it-you honestly believe that people are poor due to Lifestyle choices ??

[RxOnco]

I think what he may be getting at is there are plenty of "poor" who refuse to adjust their lifestyles for sacrifice. For example, one may be on food stamps or not have health insurance, yet have a new car payment, cable bill, cell phone, and DSL internet.

[wild_wild_wes]

[QUOTE=wild_wild_wes;4400756]Show me a poor person, and I will show you the lifestyle choices they make that keeps them poor.

I am so sorry but that statement shows so much ignorance that I can't even begin to address it-you honestly believe that people are poor due to Lifestyle choices ??


lol! Come over to my town and I will show you!

Face it, poor people make stupid choices that keep them poor: junk food, drinking, drugs; buying useless crap like spinners, grills, $200 sneakers, fancy cloths etc., having babies they can't afford; all money that could have gone to savings or education. So tell me I need to pay for some stupid idiot who is too irresponsible to run his own life, and I will laugh in your face. The myth of the "noble poor" is just that- a myth.

[ronnieraygun]

Perhaps the most ludicrous part of the speech came at the end, when Obama brought up poor Teddy Kennedy's great unfulfilled lifelong quest, and dying wish: Universal Healthcare, then tried to conflate it with the nation's....character.

We must enact socialism....to honor the memory of Ted Kennedy's....character.

Kennedy....Character.

Mary Jo Copechne could not be reached for comment.

Haha! Good point, I guess. Understand that it's another in the peace offerings he must make to the Democratic party. Obama upset the apple cart and has had to play ball. Paying homage to the Kennedy legacy as it's perceived is one of those things. He speechifies to all wings of the party whether he likes it or not, as would any other president. I'm not apologizing for him, it's just that what he said should not come as a surprise to you.


Why should I be forced to pay for someone else's health care, just because the government says they deserve it more than me? Show me a poor person, and I will show you the lifestyle choices they make that keeps them poor.




If something bad happens to you through no fault of your own and you get ass****ed by an insurance company, it might be different. Good point on the catastrophic coverage, but if we put that in, would it tick you off if someone got it on the tax dollar of you and me?

There are plenty of poor in the US who are not there because of stupid choices. The world needs ditch diggers, too. But you always get ****ed when you are on the bottom end in the US. If you thought the Democrats are actually capable of pulling all of this off anyway, then you're putting too much faith in these guys.


I think what he may be getting at is there are plenty of "poor" who refuse to adjust their lifestyles for sacrifice. For example, one may be on food stamps or not have health insurance, yet have a new car payment, cable bill, cell phone, and DSL internet.

Many, but not all.


And oh yeah, insurance companies provide a lot of jobs. They have big time lawyers, lobbyists, etc. I don't know what some of you guys are scared of because no one is just going to just show up and tell the insurance companies what to do anytime soon. Especially when this administration is already spending the paper faster than it can be inflated.

[JKD]

I grew up poor because the First National Bank of Midland failed in the 80s and my dad lost his company. Took him many years to get back where he was.

People are poor for many reasons. Some because they make bad choices but not all. To lump everyone in to one group is absurd.

And it not just poor people who need health care reform anyway. The middle class accounts for plenty of medical bankruptcies.

[USMCRTop]

[QUOTE=USMCRTop;4400807]


Face it, poor people make stupid choices that keep them poor: junk food, drinking, drugs; buying useless crap like spinners, grills, $200 sneakers, fancy cloths etc., having babies they can't afford; all money that could have gone to savings or education. a myth.

I am really sorry but it seems to me that there is thinly disguised racism or classism here- don't even think we can "agree to disagree" here

[wild_wild_wes]

Why don't you defend the wisdom of the expenses I listed (then affirm that I should pay for their health insurance, since they spent all their money on that stuff), rather than accusing me of racism.

[346L3]

I dont think hes trying to defend those actions. Not all poor people are poor because of those reasons. To say so otherwise is definitely "classism".

[GlassHarp]

He needed to show humbleness in this speach, he did not. Whoever is advising him should be fired.

[wild_wild_wes]

He needed to show humbleness in this speach, he did not. Whoever is advising him should be fired.

Very much so! Instead of trying to persuade the opposition, Obama tried to pressure them. Plus he basically called them liars.

[toowoozy]

Holy crud.
Where do you think your healthcare is going to be in 4 - 8 year without reform? Do you honestly think it will be better? Do honestly believe that most middle class and blue collar workers will actually have coverage - or at least coverage that insurers will actually honour.

Warren Buffett said not long ago in regards to the overly burdened and disappearing middle class: “If class warfare is being conducted, my class is winning.”

The gap between rich and the middle class is at its greatest then it has ever been. No matter what the economic cycle the lower income and middle class never make gains - when times are good prosperity barely touches the middle class, the riches are funneled upward - the rich get richer, the poor get the picture.

How long until employer paid for healthcare plans will NOT be funded by your employer anymore? Why do you think many corporations are supporting Obama's plan? Because they know they will not be able to fund healthcare plans without reform.

Obama's speech. Stand up triple.

[budgie]

Why should I be forced to pay for someone else's health care, just because the government says they deserve it more than me? .


Unfortunately there are still plenty of poor who are stuck with it, regardless of what they do to improve their lot. Taxes spent on getting workers back into the economy (bear in mind regardless of who is paying for their care, a sick person is an indiorect drain on teh economy) are taxes well spent IMO. Better spent than a needless foreign invasion or a fleet of new superfighters? That's a matter of opinion. Taxes are inevitable but the right are curiously silent when govt money is spent on gun ****.

[gammbino]

Let's stick to discussing the speech?

First

But thanks to the bold and decisive action we have taken since January, I can stand here with confidence and say that we have pulled this economy back from the brink.

The fcuk? How do we know the 'stimulus' or the bailouts helped? For all I know they prolonged the recession and put taxpayers on the hook for generations to come. The only barometer for success we were given came from those who proposed these packages, and that standard was that unemployment would be halted at 8%. Well, we've been hovering at 10% since then. Yet the msm won't question this or ask for any evidence that the 'stimulus' worked, because none can be provided. Biden admitted as much at a speech he gave here in Cincinnati about a month ago. But he assured us it was working. Whatever, I guess we'll just continue to believe in a magical 'multiplier' and go on with the deficit spending anytime we hit a rough patch...


...since buying insurance on your own costs you three times as much as the coverage you get from your employer.

Thanks in large part to government regulation.


We are the only advanced democracy on Earth - the only wealthy nation - that allows such hardships for millions of its people.

Is collective misery a better option? If every country does things the same, how will we ever improve? Honestly, I wish there was one nation left where people were truly free - socially and economically.


More and more Americans worry that if you move, lose your job, or change your job, you'll lose your health insurance too.

Again, part of the blame for this lies with existing government interference in the insurance industry.


One man from Illinois lost his coverage in the middle of chemotherapy because his insurer found that he hadn't reported gallstones that he didn't even know about. They delayed his treatment, and he died because of it.

Opponents have been doing it with Canada and UK, no reason PBO can't do the same.


We spend one-and-a-half times more per person on health care than any other country, but we aren't any healthier for it.

Not quite sure this is entirely true as we might be the healthier for it. I know that the US health system has alot of advanced medical technologies that are not available elsewhere (or at least in fewer numbers).


It's why so many employers - especially small businesses - are forcing their employees to pay more for insurance, or are dropping their coverage entirely.

I completely agree. Health reform is needed. Its virtually impossible for small and medium sized business to offer healthcare coverage for their employees. The problem, however, is that your solution to this problem really isn't a solution at all.


Our overall efforts have been supported by an unprecedented coalition of doctors and nurses; hospitals, seniors' groups and even drug companies - many of whom opposed reform in the past.

But why are so many conservatives and libertarians still opposed to the plan, they are, afterall, just the minions of big business. I get the feeling that a lot of people on the left truly don't understand what being a libertarian/fiscal conservative is all about and I think they would do well to read this timely piece: "Down With Big Business" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122728924999048295.html . Just because big pharmaceutical companies support your plan doesn't mean we're going to fall in line like good boys and girls. You know what's worse than big government? Big government and big business in bed together.


First, if you are among the hundreds of millions of Americans who already have health insurance through your job, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA, nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have.

Except of course if your employer provides insurance coverage and the government option is cheaper (which it invariably will be) then you're going to be switched, but other than that you won't be forced to change :roll:


Under this plan, it will be against the law for insurance companies to deny you coverage because of a pre-existing condition.

I'm honestly a bit confused here. Does this mean upon application you cannot be denied or once you've paid the premiums you can't be denied. The former is just plain stupid and the latter is perfectly reasonable.


We will place a limit on how much you can be charged for out-of-pocket expenses, because in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they get sick. And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies - because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse.

So why even call it insurance anymore? Aren't these personal choices i.e. I'm a fairly healthy and safe individual who doesn't visit the doctor very often, why can't I have a high deductible / low premium plan w/ an HSA? And "no extra charge", really Barak? So private insurers will have to raise premiums to pay for routine checkups and the government can just raise taxes or borrow/print money to pay for routine checkups, but you aren't trying to drive private insurance out of business, right?


We will do this by creating a new insurance exchange - a marketplace where individuals and small businesses will be able to shop for health insurance at competitive prices. Insurance companies will have an incentive to participate in this exchange because it lets them compete for millions of new customers.

Wow, what is this new invention, a market? Never heard of it. Again, government restrictions are a big part of the reason insurance companies don't compete nationally and across state lines. We don't need an "exchange", we just need a free market for health insurance.


That's why under my plan, individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance - just as most states require you to carry auto insurance. Likewise, businesses will be required to either offer their workers health care, or chip in to help cover the cost of their workers.

"Basic health insurance." That is required by law to cover routine checkups, pregnancy (whether you're going to pop out a kid or not) etc. and you can't be denied coverage for a preexisting condition. So, again the gov't will be the only entity that can offer this coverage at an affordable price w/out going out of business. But don't worry, the public option isn't a stepping stone on the way to single payer...

Also, why don't we force people to buy insurance for all of life's problems. It would be a fukcing utopia.


Unfortunately, in 34 states, 75% of the insurance market is controlled by five or fewer companies. In Alabama, almost 90% is controlled by just one company.

Again, existing regulation is the primary culprit.


... the same way public colleges and universities provide additional choice and competition to students without in any way inhibiting a vibrant system of private colleges and universities.

Question. Do we, by law, require private universities to accept students with preexisting low test scores and GPAs? Do we mandate that private universities cannot accept students if they happen to be residents of a different state? Do we mandate minimum curriculum for private colleges and universities? Does federal law force private universities and colleges to provide certain classes whether the students want them or not? Just curious.


Now, I have no interest in putting insurance companies out of business.
You keep saying this, but have yet to disavow your previous statements about how your goal is a single payer system.

It's late and I have to go to bed, so last one:

First, I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits - either now or in the future. Period.

I think this says it all: :-*$

[skipperbob]

Very much so! Instead of trying to persuade the opposition, Obama tried to pressure them. Plus he basically called them liars.

Maybe because the opposition had made it clear that they will not accept anything coming from this administration. Their answer is no to everything - they want to hurt and embarrass Obama, the country be damned. They have no solutions of their own, just obstruct and lie. And they are lies - Death Panel, coverage for illegals, forced to change doctors, forced to drop your insurance and take what is given to you, cuts in Senior programs - all lies.

[wild_wild_wes]

Maybe because the opposition had made it clear that they will not accept anything coming from this administration. Their answer is no to everything - they want to hurt and embarrass Obama, the country be damned. They have no solutions of their own, just obstruct and lie.

Hey skipper did you notice those folders the Republicans were waving at the Press? They contain the Republican health care reform proposals....and Obama has shown no interest at all in examining them. So yes they do have solutions; you are wrong on that. But yes they are obstructing Obama's plan for changing our medical system, and I pray they derail it entirely.


And they are lies - Death Panel, coverage for illegals, forced to change doctors, forced to drop your insurance and take what is given to you, cuts in Senior programs - all lies.

Again you are wrong. Adding 30 million new people into the system will inevitably lead to rationing; thus, the Death Panels (I suggest you google Ezekiel Emmanual). Also, how will doctors cope with the flood of new patients? And who will want to go through the overwhealming expense to become a doctor, if it only pays peanuts? With the Public Option available, employers will take the penalty, and drop thier current private insurance for their workers, who will then be dumped onto the Public option where they will have to take what is given to them- there goes your doctor, goodbye, you can't afford to see him now. Finally, Obama himself has said Medicare must be trimmed; after all, that's where he expects to find a large chunck of money to pay for his plan. He just lied about it tonight, is all.

So you see, you are wrong about every point you made.

[skipperbob]

No, you have not provided a single fact here, just your slanted views on what people like you want to happen. Are you really satisfied with the way our health system runs today? The death panels exist - they are called insurance companies - they kill people every day by denying them coverage or refusing to pay for treatments. The Republican response is ludicrous, they propose things that they themselves have refused to vote for in the past, it is just a smokescreen to pretend they have an alternative. If their ideas are so good why didn't they push them when they controlled the House and Senate for six years? Because they don't want reform - The Republicans voted against Social Security, they voted against Medicare and used the same old arguments - can't afford it, not fair etc... Lies and distortions - the world is going to end if this happens.

[BearInBunnySuit]

Regarding illegals - again, remember this is the government of "don't-ask-don't-tell". They can't even bring themselves to call them "illegal" within the bill. They're "undocumented". They'll get around the illegal issue by simply not asking them. Most of our police can't even ask them if they're here legally, why should our doctors be any different?

Open up those wallets, it's payback time.

This was in the other thread but I wanted to respond to it here.

There is no way that doctors will be allowed to ask the immigration status of a patient. Will the medical staff ask every single person who comes in to the hospital or will they focus on people who appear to be "fresh off the boat?" And even if they were allowed to ask, how many doctors will actually refuse someone medical attention because they find out the patient is an illegal immigrant. That would be breaking the Hippocratic Oath, isn't it?

As for any additional cost that Obama's plan will trigger, it will be the average middle-class American who will have to foot the bill because it usually ends up that way from my experience.

I also believe that the government should not tackle health care reforms without taking critical steps to significantly lower the overall cost of health care.

[Delay]

No, you have not provided a single fact here, just your slanted views on what people like you want to happen. Are you really satisfied with the way our health system runs today? The death panels exist - they are called insurance companies - they kill people every day by denying them coverage or refusing to pay for treatments.


http://www.*******.com/article/pressRelease/idUS202570+02-Sep-2009+PRN20090902

OAKLAND, Calif., Sept. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- More than one of every five requests
for medical claims for insured patients, even when recommended by a patient's
physician, are rejected by California's largest private insurers, amounting to
very real death panels in practice daily in the nation's biggest state,
according to data released today by the California Nurses Association/National
Nurses Organizing Committee.

CNA/NNOC researchers analyzed data reported by the insurers to the California
Department of Managed Care. From 2002 through June 30, 2009, the six largest
insurers operating in California rejected 31.2 million claims for care - 21
percent of all claims.

The data will be presented by Don DeMoro, director of CNA/NNOC's research arm,
the Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy, at CNA/NNOC's biennial
convention next Tuesday, Sept. 8 in San Francisco. The convention will also
feature a panel presentation from nurse leaders in Canada, Great Britain, and
Australia exploding the myths about their national healthcare systems.

[Chulo]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_fact_check
FACT CHECK: Obama uses iffy math on deficit pledge


(http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/House-Speaker-Nancy-Pelosi-President-Barack-Obama/photo//090910/480/4f29ec13b1d14c889f400851f83cb01b//s:/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_fact_check)AP – President Barack Obama delivers a speech on healthcare to a joint session of Congress, Wednesday, Sept., …


By CALVIN WOODWARD and ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writers Calvin Woodward And Erica Werner, Associated Press Writers – Thu Sep 10, 3:15 am ET
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama used only-in-Washington accounting Wednesday when he promised to overhaul the nation's health care system without adding "one dime" to the deficit. By conventional arithmetic, Democratic plans would drive up the deficit by billions of dollars.
The president's speech to Congress contained a variety of oversimplifications and omissions in laying out what he wants to do about health insurance.
A look at some of Obama's claims and how they square with the facts or the fuller story:
___
OBAMA: "I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits either now or in the future. Period."
THE FACTS: Though there's no final plan yet, the White House and congressional Democrats already have shown they're ready to skirt the no-new-deficits pledge.
House Democrats offered a bill that the Congressional Budget Office said would add $220 billion to the deficit over 10 years. But Democrats and Obama administration officials claimed the bill actually was deficit-neutral. They said they simply didn't have to count $245 billion of it — the cost of adjusting Medicare reimbursement rates so physicians don't face big annual pay cuts.
Their reasoning was that they already had decided to exempt this "doc fix" from congressional rules that require new programs to be paid for. In other words, it doesn't have to be paid for because they decided it doesn't have to be paid for.
The administration also said that since Obama already had included the doctor payment in his 10-year budget proposal, it didn't have to be counted again.
That aside, the long-term prognosis for costs of the health care legislation has not been good.
CBO Director Douglas Elmendorf had this to say in July: "We do not see the sort of fundamental changes that would be necessary to reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount."
___
OBAMA: "Nothing in this plan will require you or your employer to change the coverage or the doctor you have."
THE FACTS: That's correct, as far as it goes. But neither can the plan guarantee that people can keep their current coverage. Employers sponsor coverage for most families, and they'd be free to change their health plans in ways that workers may not like, or drop insurance altogether. The Congressional Budget Office analyzed the health care bill written by House Democrats and said that by 2016 some 3 million people who now have employer-based care would lose it because their employers would decide to stop offering it.
In the past Obama repeatedly said, "If you like your health care plan, you'll be able to keep your health care plan, period." Now he's stopping short of that unconditional guarantee by saying nothing in the plan "requires" any change.
___
OBAMA: "The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally." One congressman, South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson, shouted "You lie!" from his seat in the House chamber when Obama made this assertion. Wilson later apologized.
THE FACTS: The facts back up Obama. The House version of the health care bill explicitly prohibits spending any federal money to help illegal immigrants get health care coverage. Illegal immigrants could buy private health insurance, as many do now, but wouldn't get tax subsidies to help them. Still, Republicans say there are not sufficient citizenship verification requirements to ensure illegal immigrants are excluded from benefits they are not due.
___
OBAMA: "Don't pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut. ... That will never happen on my watch. I will protect Medicare."
THE FACTS: Obama and congressional Democrats want to pay for their health care plans in part by reducing Medicare payments to providers by more than $500 billion over 10 years. The cuts would largely hit hospitals and Medicare Advantage, the part of the Medicare program operated through private insurance companies.
Although wasteful spending in Medicare is widely acknowledged, many experts believe some seniors almost certainly would see reduced benefits from the cuts. That's particularly true for the 25 percent of Medicare users covered through Medicare Advantage.
Supporters contend that providers could absorb the cuts by improving how they operate and wouldn't have to reduce benefits or pass along costs. But there's certainly no guarantee they wouldn't.
___
OBAMA: Requiring insurance companies to cover preventive care like mammograms and colonoscopies "makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives."
THE FACTS: Studies have shown that much preventive care — particularly tests like the ones Obama mentions — actually costs money instead of saving it. That's because detecting acute diseases like breast cancer in their early stages involves testing many people who would never end up developing the disease. The costs of a large number of tests, even if they're relatively cheap, will outweigh the costs of caring for the minority of people who would have ended up getting sick without the testing.
The Congressional Budget Office wrote in August: "The evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall."
That doesn't mean preventive care doesn't make sense or save lives. It just doesn't save money.
___
OBAMA: "If you lose your job or change your job, you will be able to get coverage. If you strike out on your own and start a small business, you will be able to get coverage."
THE FACTS: It's not just a matter of being able to get coverage. Most people would have to get coverage under the law, if his plan is adopted.
In his speech, Obama endorsed mandatory coverage for individuals, an approach he did not embrace as a candidate.
He proposed during the campaign — as he does now — that larger businesses be required to offer insurance to workers or else pay into a fund. But he rejected the idea of requiring individuals to obtain insurance. He said people would get insurance without being forced to do so by the law, if coverage were made affordable. And he repeatedly criticized his Democratic primary rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton, for proposing to mandate coverage.
"To force people to get health insurance, you've got to have a very harsh penalty," he said in a February 2008 debate.
Now, he says, "individuals will be required to carry basic health insurance — just as most states require you to carry auto insurance."
He proposes a hardship waiver, exempting from the requirement those who cannot afford coverage despite increased federal aid.
___
OBAMA: "There are now more than 30 million American citizens who cannot get coverage."
THE FACTS: Obama time and again has referred to the number of uninsured as 46 million, a figure based on year-old Census data. The new number is based on an analysis by the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, which concluded that about two-thirds of Americans without insurance are poor or near poor. "These individuals are less likely to be offered employer-sponsored coverage or to be able to afford to purchase their own coverage," the report said. By using the new figure, Obama avoids criticism that he is including individuals, particularly healthy young people, who choose not to obtain health insurance.
___
Associated Press writer Jim Kuhnhenn contributed to this report.

[Geezah]

The Obamacare plan is certainly overcomplicated.

Public healthcare, as expensive as it might be for the govt, is relatively simple. Create a resevoir of money so that the poor and otherwise uninsured can get affordable or subsidized healthcare.

Over 10% of those are illegal immigrants, do you suggest we should provide for thier illegals arses?

Also, the number is no longer 47million, it went down to 30million in Obama's speech last night!




Those who can afford better hospitals will do so through private health plans as they've always done.

So, you advocate looking after the poor, but see no problem in the poor getting sub-
standard care?



It won't create much competition for efficient mega-insurers and there's no need for the govt to over-regulate or try to manage the affairs of these private insurers.

This plan is going to fail because it directly threatens big business. Simply offering a public plan by itself would have been quite enough.

It's going to fail because the majority do not want it!

[DC5dude]

I'll be damned if my tax dollars are going to pay for healthcare for all the bums in this country who aren't paying any taxes to benefit me. And all you liberals can take that "death panel" BS and shove it. Every one I know or have ever known is mostly middle class, but I've known alot of people in my life at the bottom of the food chain and there are so many ways for poor people to get insured it's pathetic to argue otherwise. The poorer you are the more of your college expenses the Govt. will pay and most colleges administrate their own healthcare plans and require students to subscribe to them unless they can provide proof of coverage otherwise. That's just one way of doing it but hey, most poor people would rather collect welfare and live off us the 'taxpayers' as opposed to putting in the time and effort to make a contribution to society because it's "easier".

[TheSteve]

No, he's trying to kill private healthcare.

Step 1) Create a public plan.
Step 2) Prevent private insurance companies from creating or modifying insurance plans. You get sick, your premiums stay the same = bankrupt insurers.
Step 3) Every is forced onto the public plan.
Step 4) Public plan adds to the debt, is run inefficiently and healthcare suffers.

But hey, who knows, you might get lucky and have healthcare run like the post office.
Really? Thats his masterplan? ALL of the insurance companies will go broke! No, the for profit companies just won't make as much money is the more likely scenario.

He clearly painted a single payer system as a far left idea that he is not embracing (too bad, though). Also, on Step four, private healthcare is already run inefficiently and healthcare is suffering now, not in the socialistic, police state, commie future of yours.

[Sakop]

Also, on Step four, private healthcare is already run inefficiently and healthcare is suffering now, not in the socialistic, police state, commie future of yours.

Yes, the US government efficiently runs all its social programs… You want to go from bad to worse?

[JKD]

I'll be damned if my tax dollars are going to pay for healthcare for all the bums in this country who aren't paying any taxes to benefit me. And all you liberals can take that "death panel" BS and shove it. Every one I know or have ever known is mostly middle class, but I've known alot of people in my life at the bottom of the food chain and there are so many ways for poor people to get insured it's pathetic to argue otherwise. The poorer you are the more of your college expenses the Govt. will pay and most colleges administrate their own healthcare plans and require students to subscribe to them unless they can provide proof of coverage otherwise. That's just one way of doing it but hey, most poor people would rather collect welfare and live off us the 'taxpayers' as opposed to putting in the time and effort to make a contribution to society because it's "easier".

So all anyone needs to do is stay in college forever, taking out endless loans to do so, and enjoy their school's health plan?

I know plenty of people at and below the poverty line who are sober, hard working, contributing members of society. Just because someone is productive doesn't instantly put them at the professional and economic finish line.

It's not only the poor who need health coverage. Even the insured middle class can get run over by the current system

Most of those bankrupted by medical problems were "solidly middle class" before they suffered financial disaster -- two-thirds were homeowners and three-fifths had gone to college. In many cases, these people were hit at the same time by high medical bills and loss of income as illness forced breadwinners to take time off work. It was common for illness to lead to job loss and the disappearance of work-based health insurance.

The study also found that well-insured families often had to cope with high out-of-pocket medical costs for co-payments, deductibles and uncovered services. Medical bills for medically bankrupt families with private insurance averaged $17,749, compared to $26,971 for the uninsured and $22,568 for those who initially had private coverage but lost it during their illness.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/06/04/hscout627785.html

[Alpheus]

Really? Thats his masterplan? ALL of the insurance companies will go broke! No, the for profit companies just won't make as much money is the more likely scenario.

He clearly painted a single payer system as a far left idea that he is not embracing (too bad, though).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk

Oh really?


Also, on Step four, private healthcare is already run inefficiently and healthcare is suffering now, not in the socialistic, police state, commie future of yours.

There are three healthcare systems in the US, Medicare, Social Security, and private insurance. Two of those will be bankrupt by 2017. One will not. Can you guess which one that is?

[California Joe]

I've had healthcare from GEHA, Government Employees Health...for like 20 years. It works, it's not great in some cases, excellent in others. But we get to pick from a whole bunch of plans every year. I think everyone should get to do that.

And since when are Insurance Companies a protected class of good guys? Why aren't you all railing about their lobbyists who have a helluva lot more clout than those ACORN clowns you love to hate. What's next? Used Car Salesmen and Lawyers as victims? WTF? Haven't any of you watched Erin Brockovich for chrissakes? The f*cking system is broke guys. How many people that actually have insurance still get f*cked when they actually need something? A whole lot.

[Chulo]

I've had healthcare from GEHA, Government Employees Health...for like 20 years. It works, it's not great in some cases, excellent in others. But we get to pick from a whole bunch of plans every year. I think everyone should get to do that.

And since when are Insurance Companies a protected class of good guys? Why aren't you all railing about their lobbyists who have a helluva lot more clout than those ACORN clowns you love to hate. What's next? Used Car Salesmen and Lawyers as victims? WTF? Haven't any of you watched Erin Brockovich for chrissakes? The f*cking system is broke guys. How many people that actually have insurance still get f*cked when they actually need something? A whole lot.
I dont think anyone disagrees that the system is broke, the question is how do you fix it. And I for one dont think handing it over the the government is going to fix anything, rather it will just make it worse . I guess i am libertarian in the free market idea, and today's present system is NOT free market.

[Sakop]

^x2 Government is not the answer

[Winger]

Haven't any of you watched Erin Brockovich for chrissakes?

rofl

They did an interview on her a while back. She was pretty hawt; good set of cans.

[California Joe]

I dont think anyone disagrees that the system is broke, the question is how do you fix it. And I for one dont think handing it over the the government is going to fix anything, rather it will just make it worse . I guess i am libertarian in the free market idea, and today's present system is NOT free market.

I think the government actually does some things well. Others, not so much. I don't really want the government acting as the CEO of the largest insurance company in the country either. I'd much prefer it act as a very large pissed off defensive lineman that punches scumbag insurance companies in the neck when they f*ck over the citizens of this country.

However, due to their influence, like every other well funded lobby, lining the pockets of our ****head self important representatives, I don't see meaningful change coming from the corporate sector policing themselves.

[Jobu]

I've had healthcare from GEHA, Government Employees Health...for like 20 years. It works, it's not great in some cases, excellent in others. But we get to pick from a whole bunch of plans every year. I think everyone should get to do that.

And since when are Insurance Companies a protected class of good guys? Why aren't you all railing about their lobbyists who have a helluva lot more clout than those ACORN clowns you love to hate. What's next? Used Car Salesmen and Lawyers as victims? WTF? Haven't any of you watched Erin Brockovich for chrissakes? The f*cking system is broke guys. How many people that actually have insurance still get f*cked when they actually need something? A whole lot.

I'd rather get ****ed by the insurance companies than by the government. It hurts less.

[Azatavrear]

I am not a Democrat but I agree with Obama when he says “Our health care problem is our Deficit problem”. I do wish that the republicans get off of their high horse, stop blocking him, and at least try to help him solve this big problem that will ruin and continue to put an impossible burden on our future generations.
Calling him a liar for saying his program will not benefit the illegal immigrants is nothing but political noise…….means nothing. Fix the illegal problem, we can’t deny them emergency care. What the hell.

This is very complicated for most of us to figure out a solution. All I know when I was in Australia as a legal resident fot two years I received top free health care in the best hospitals with practically nothing out of pocket with no job at the time. I know we cannot compare the population of US to Australia but man that was a blessing. I wish the same here in this great country. Americans deserve much better.

[21stArmada]

Well, I got a great solution, rather than offer "free" service to the bums who chose to stay home and have me pay for their health care, who not provide instead a free train ticket to Canada . They have universal coverage for all there. I am sure it is cheaper.

[Alpheus]

I am not a Democrat but I agree with Obama when he says “Our health care problem is our Deficit problem”. I do wish that the republicans get off of their high horse, stop blocking him, and at least try to help him solve this big problem that will ruin and continue to put an impossible burden on our future generations.

The Republicans are trying to solve the problem, but Obama has refused to let them into the discussion since April.
Yes, healthcare in the States is something of a financial balck hole, but the Congressional Budget Office has stated that Obama's plan is not deficit neutral and will add to the debt considerably.

Calling him a liar for saying his program will not benefit the illegal immigrants is nothing but political noise…….means nothing. Means nothing? What part of illegal immigrants don't you understand? Besides, Obama is lying, his plan will be available to illegal immigrants. See here: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obamacare-wont-cover-illegal-immigrants--55021087.html


Fix the illegal problem, we can’t deny them emergency care. What the hell. Nobody wants to deny emergency care to anyone. It's just using taxpayer money to pay for an illegal immigrants lung transplant that people don't like.

[Alpheus]

Well, I got a great solution, rather than offer "free" service to the bums who chose to stay home and have me pay for their health care, who not provide instead a free train ticket to Canada . They have universal coverage for all there. I am sure it is cheaper.

Funny you mention us, since there is gathering momentum in Canada to expanding what little private healthcare/insurance we have.

[Chulo]

I am not a Democrat but I agree with Obama when he says “Our health care problem is our Deficit problem”. I do wish that the republicans get off of their high horse, stop blocking him, and at least try to help him solve this big problem that will ruin and continue to put an impossible burden on our future generations.
Calling him a liar for saying his program will not benefit the illegal immigrants is nothing but political noise…….means nothing. Fix the illegal problem, we can’t deny them emergency care. What the hell.

Yup.. case in point would be
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=164759

The ball is in President Obama's court to reach out to Republicans if he wants a bipartisan bill on healthcare reform, House GOP Leader John Boehner (Ohio) said Monday morning.

Boehner told reporters that the president has not invited House GOP leaders to the White House for meetings on healthcare reform since the end of April.

Earlier this year, GOP leaders sent a letter to the president in May stating that they would like to work with the administration to find "common ground" on healthcare reform.

But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/57859-boehner-gop-leaders-havent-met-obama-for-health-talks-since-april

[Azatavrear]

The Republicans are trying to solve the problem, but Obama has refused to let them into the discussion since April.
Yes, healthcare in the States is something of a financial balck hole, but the Congressional Budget Office has stated that Obama's plan is not deficit neutral and will add to the debt considerably.
Means nothing? What part of illegal immigrants don't you understand? Besides, Obama is lying, his plan will be available to illegal immigrants. See here: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obamacare-wont-cover-illegal-immigrants--55021087.html

Nobody wants to deny emergency care to anyone. It's just using taxpayer money to pay for an illegal immigrants lung transplant that people don't like.

I am not sure, maybe I am naive. I work my butt off and really don't mind to pay a little extra for the ones who are down on their luck. People taking advantage of our system can go pound sand as far as I am concerned, I see that as a seperate problem including our illigal immigrants screwing the system.

Obama also said that if no results are seen in a short time then the spendings will be cut, something he has already signed but who the hell knows.........I sure the hell don't. Are we not to believe our own Presidents words? Then what.

[danielc]

Every week there's a new excuse as to why universal health care is wrong, now its because it will protect illegal immigrants. Again, this nothing but a load of BS . The majority of people that stand to benefit from the existence of a universal health care system is the middle class. I bet in the states there are way more middle-class people that are either under-insured, or not insured, then the poor, or illegal immigrants.

If there is concern that illegal immigrants are going to abuse the system, implement something like we have in Canada. If you are citizen, or a landed immigrant, you get a health card ID, that you need to use anytime you visit a doctor, or a hospital. If you don't have one, then you have to pay for your care out of your pocket. Of course, if it's a situation where they are taken to the emergency room, things get a bit more complicated, but its still controllable. At least at that point you can call in the immigration department to came an arrest that illegal.

[Chulo]

Every week there's a new excuse as to why universal health care is wrong, now its because it will protect illegal immigrants. Again, this nothing but a load of BS . The majority of people that stand to benefit from the existence of a universal health care system is the middle class. I bet in the states there are way more middle-class that are either under-insured, or not insured, then the poor, or illegal immigrants.

If there is concern that illegal immigrants are going to abuse the system, implement something like we have in Canada. If you are citizen, or a landed immigrant, you get a health card ID, that you need to use anytime you visit a doctor, or a hospital. If you don't have one, then you have to pay for your care out of your pocket. Of course, if it's a situation where they are taken to the emergency room, things get a bit more complicated, but its still controllable. At least at that point you can call in the immigration department to came an arrest that illegal.
Yup, and that would be the verification process. Too bad that the bill doesn't have a strong one (or any for that matter)
The bill says no health care for illegals.. good, but it does not say how you verify someone is an illegal

House Health Reform Bill Will Allow Illegal Aliens to Receive Taxpayer-Funded Health Care
Critics of America’s Affordable Health Care Act of 2009 (AAHCA), the health care reform bill currently working its way through the House of Representatives, have suggested the bill will provide taxpayer-funded health care to illegal aliens. Supporters of the bill maintain that Section 246 will prevent illegal aliens from receiving benefits under the bill. Section 246 states that “[n]othing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.”1 As discussed in this memorandum, Section 246 will not prevent illegal aliens from receiving taxpayer-funded health care benefits under the bill.

(1) Illegal Aliens Eligible for Public Plan. Section 246 applies only to “affordability credit” access, but does not apply to anyone attempting to enroll in the public health insurance plan created by Section 221. Affordability credits can be used to offset the cost of health care coverage for individuals who enroll in private insurance plans, but there is currently no provision barring illegal aliens from enrolling in the taxpayer-funded public plan. An amendment offered by Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV) at the Ways & Means Committee markup would have required
that enrollees in the public plan, or those seeking affordability credits, must verify eligibility with the Income Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) system.
That amendment was rejected by the committee on a party-line vote. As currently written, the bill would allow illegal aliens to freely enroll in the public plan.

(2) Section 246 Lacks Verification Requirements. Over the years, Congress has required various methods to ensure that only eligible individuals receive federal public benefits. The most effective of these methods involves the requirement that an agency or employer confirm eligibility with a verification database. Examples of effective databases to verify eligibility include the SAVE system, which confirms an individual is a citizen or qualified alien (as defined by the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996, more commonly known as the “Welfare Reform Act of 1996”)2 and is therefore eligible for certain benefits; the IEVS, which confirms income eligibility for purposes of certain means-tested benefits like Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF); or the E-Verify system, which confirms an individual is work-authorized in the United States. A lesser method to screen for benefit eligibility would be to require applicants to self-attest eligibility, subject to penalties of perjury, on a benefit enrollment form. This method is unreliable because it depends solely on the honesty of applicants and also fails to actually determine an applicant’s eligibility. The health care reform bill does not require the use of any verification database to determine eligibility for affordability credits.
Likewise, this bill does not require any screening or self-attestation by applicants to determine eligibility for affordability credits. Instead, Section 246 bars illegal aliens from receiving affordability credits but contains no enforcement method to ensure compliance so as to preclude ineligible individuals from receiving that benefit.
Where enforcement is lacking, we can expect compliance to be similarly lacking. Accordingly, Section 246 will do nothing to actually preclude benefits from being improperly provided to illegal aliens.

(3) Government Studies Confirm: Bar on Benefits without Verification is Ineffective. Government research confirms that a statute that limits the availability of government benefits is meaningless unless it is also coupled
with a vigorous method of ensuring eligibility in order to eliminate fraud and abuse. For example, the Government

[Jobu]

There's no "new" reason. It's the same old reason it has always been. We don't want a more powerful government with more control over our lives and more control over the economy spending more money we don't have.

How dense do you have to be to think it's all about "death panels" or illegal aliens?

Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you people?

[danielc]

To Chulo_Allen:

There should be a verification system so that you don't encourage free raiders. It seems to me to be, something that is "relatively easy" to implement, and without any political downfall attached it. The text implies that nothing will ever be implemented, but that may just be interpretation on the part of the author.

=====================================================

To Jobu:

What's so important about your life that makes you think that the government wants to control it?

If the US government did not provided you, and others like you with Police services, court services, highways, trains, air control, armed forces, system of law, money, etc, etc, etc, your life would be miserable.

[Chulo]

To Chulo_Allen:

There should be a verification system so that you don't encourage free raiders. It seems to me to be, something that is "relatively easy" to implement, and without any political downfall attached it. The text implies that nothing will ever be implemented, but that may just be interpretation on the part of the author.

Yea, you would figure, but it is not included in the Bill, and that would be an issue. Then again, the bill is so important and so long, and gets revised every day (especially when issues are brought up by people who notice something strange) that most people dont bother to read it before they vote.
I am not against change and healthcare, but i am not for government taking over, and more importantly having my representatives vote on something that will cost trillions of dollars without ever reading it.

[Jobu]

To Jobu:

What's so important about your life that makes you think that the government wants to control it?
-------------

Duh, I make money.

[California Joe]

There's no "new" reason. It's the same old reason it has always been. We don't want a more powerful government with more control over our lives and more control over the economy spending more money we don't have.

I get that part. But what if there was a Citizens Health Association like my GEHA insurance where every open season large blocks of people were allowed to pick from a great pool of plans and get a much better price break? Wouldn't that seem like a decent way to get everyone some insurance if they want some?

How dense do you have to be to think it's all about "death panels" or illegal aliens?

I say that all the time. Tell that to Charles Grassley and Sarah Palin and those f*cktards yelling at town halls that don't even understand Medicare is a government run program.

Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you people?

I hang around here.

[11 Bravo]

Are we not to believe our own Presidents words? Then what.

Hey man ... give me some of the koolaide you are drinking... it's gotta be damn good stuff !.

[Johnnyringo]

Yea, you would figure, but it is not included in the Bill, and that would be an issue. Then again, the bill is so important and so long, and gets revised every day (especially when issues are brought up by people who notice something strange) that most people dont bother to read it before they vote.
I am not against change and healthcare, but i am not for government taking over, and more importantly having my representatives vote on something that will cost trillions of dollars without ever reading it.

Will you be receiving Medicare and Medicaid benefits when you retire? What about those social security checks you'll be getting in the mail? Plan on cashing any of those? Ever drawn unemployment benefits or too proud??? I bet. Maybe V.A. care if you're a vet???

If you're against the government using tax dollars to pay for services you'll use (or likely need), don't use those services...

[Alpheus]

If you're against the government using tax dollars to pay for services you'll use (or likely need), don't use those services...

Re-read what Chulo wrote, he never said anything about being against gov't spending or providing services.

[Chulo]

Will you be receiving Medicare and Medicaid benefits when you retire? What about those social security checks you'll be getting in the mail? Plan on cashing any of those? Ever drawn unemployment benefits or too proud??? I bet. Maybe V.A. care if you're a vet???

If you're against the government using tax dollars to pay for services you'll use (or likely need), don't use those services...
Alpheus is right. But if i have the option to not use those services, then do i have the option to NOT pay taxes for what i will be NOT getting? If not then, i think every tax payers should exercise their right to what their money is being spent on and how its being spent.

[USMCRTop]

No, you have not provided a single fact here, just your slanted views on what people like you want to happen. Are you really satisfied with the way our health system runs today? The death panels exist - they are called insurance companies - they kill people every day by denying them coverage or refusing to pay for treatments. The Republican response is ludicrous, they propose things that they themselves have refused to vote for in the past, it is just a smokescreen to pretend they have an alternative. If their ideas are so good why didn't they push them when they controlled the House and Senate for six years? Because they don't want reform - The Republicans voted against Social Security, they voted against Medicare and used the same old arguments - can't afford it, not fair etc... Lies and distortions - the world is going to end if this happens.

X2 I used to consider myself a Republican-not now...

[Johnnyringo]

Re-read what Chulo wrote, he never said anything about being against gov't spending or providing services.

I actually read what I'm responding to. Which is why I bother to respond.

He said he wasn't for "Government taking over"... and that is not what the bills being presented propose. The government is trying to balance the market that provides health care to you and I. Making it cheaper to insure yourself and stay healthy and bankruptcy free.

[RxOnco]

I actually read what I'm responding to. Which is why I bother to respond.

He said he wasn't for "Government taking over"... and that is not what the bills being presented propose. The government is trying to balance the market that provides health care to you and I. Making it cheaper to insure yourself and stay healthy and bankruptcy free.

What flavor is that Kool-Aid they serve in Chicago? It's not your fault. I blame it on your geographical surroundings.

[Johnnyringo]

Alpheus is right. But if i have the option to not use those services, then do i have the option to NOT pay taxes for what i will be NOT getting? If not then, i think every tax payers should exercise their right to what their money is being spent on and how its being spent.

Let me break this down for you champ...

If you're willing to take benefits from a government run bureaucracy like Medicare or Social Security that is a tacit endorsement of that function of government. Saying you don't believe in "Government takeovers" of human services, is like saying you don't think the bureaucracy is capable of handling those services. If they can't provide health insurance to the people that can't get it on their own how could they provide it to our seniors??? Or our Veterans??? How do they provide it to our elected officials??

By the way...Get rid of that F*cking avatar of Hitler eating a watermelon you inbred POS... As if it wasn't possible to embarass yourself within the anonymity of the internet you have found a way to show your true colors...

[wild_wild_wes]

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, The Post Office....

All billions in the red. All insolvent, or soon will be.

So, this new government Private Option (a stalking horse for Single Payer i.e. socialized healthcare, admit it) will somehow avoid the fate of all other government programs? Waste, fraud, abuse. Yet somehow you true believers think this program will be different.

[Flagg]

For the record: On the Ronald Regan scale of Conservativity with Rush Linbaugh being a 1 and Ghengis Khan being a 10, I'm somewhere north of 14.

But let's be honest, President Obama is NOT the devil incarnate...he didn't brainwash the children......maybe he really does want to help.

One of the smartest folks I know mentioned that in order for the United States to be globally competitive, it's workforce needs to be healthy and smart....right now it's fat and stupid and that's no way to go through life(Animal House reference :) )

Focusing on the healthy bit, it would be good to see significant healthcare reform..on that I think pretty much everyone is agreed...the how is the only difference.

I've spoken with doctors with more schoolin' than astronauts getting fcuked 7 ways to sunday by everyone, and the worst part is they often get left with the job of either being bagman or go unpaid for those without coverage......those with the brains and the discipline to make it through medical school shouldn't have to work for a lower hourly rate than an unskilled job at times.

2/3 of personal bankruptcies being medical bill rleated tells me it's a big fcuking problem.

I'm an American living overseas......universal health care didn't make me a pod person or a dirty communist.

What's wrong with slicing healthcare reform up into a good number of manageable pieces that are easier to digest and understand?

Plus all sides get to win a few, lose a few, and then everyone can land on an aircraft carrier and declare victory.

Some of the posts here made me stupider just attmepting to read them.

[wild_wild_wes]

Saying you don't believe in "Government takeovers" of human services, is like saying you don't think the bureaucracy is capable of handling those services. If they can't provide health insurance to the people that can't get it on their own how could they provide it to our seniors??? Or our Veterans??? How do they provide it to our elected officials??

seniors: Medicare/Medicaid are going broke.

Veterans: The VA has not been a shining light for quality healthcare.

elected officials: This is several thousand people at most (535 current members, plus retirees). You really think their premiums cover their costs? WE are paying for their ride.

So since the government is now in charge of the healthcare for the above groups, you consider that proof that it can handle 330 million more "customers"? Even in the face that none of the above groups pay their own way?

Where is the money going to come from to pay for all this?

[Derbedeu]

I'm an American living overseas......universal health care didn't make me a pod person or a dirty communist.



It does make you a dirty socialist.

p-)

[Flagg]

seniors: Medicare/Medicaid are going broke.

Veterans: The VA has not been a shining light for quality healthcare.

elected officials: This is several thousand people at most (535 current members, plus retirees). You really think their premiums cover their costs? WE are paying for their ride.

So since the government is now in charge of the healthcare for the above groups, you consider that proof that it can handle 330 million more "customers"? Even in the face that none of the above groups pay their own way?

Where is the money going to come from to pay for all this?

A couple things........

Notice how the President said entitlements wouldn't be CUT from the very politically powerful bluehairs?

Did you notice what he failed to mention:

Any change to entitlement age.

"Hello there Mr. and Mrs. Six Pack. I see you are both 69 years old. It's amazing really......neither of you look a day over 60, Mrs. Six Pack you could even pass for 40.....wink wink. Surely you are both far too young to retire. Your country needs you.....specifically to help serve Frappachinos for minimum wage to our visiting Chinese tourist overlords. 70 is the new 40. Your entitlements are safe and sound and ready for you to collect when you turn 75."

I reckon there will be substantially greater use of midwives, physician's assistants, and nurse practitioners to carry more of the primary health care burden to try and reduce costs.....no offense against the aforementioned professions, but reducing costs can often include a reduction in quality.

I'd be happy to see Congress get hit with a rider on the bill requiring it to "eat it's own cooking"...that would be cool seeing your congressman in the queue with a #874 medicattletag.

It would be good to see the illegal immigration issue dealt with too.......maybe failure to display an official US Patriot ID at a doctor.gov franchise should result in illegal aliens having their illegal organs harvested?

Since the IRS is rumoured to be getting involved to make sure those who can pay WILL(again), maybe get the INS in on the action....give agents a 20% commission on all illegal alien organs collected.......that's cross-departmental cost savings synergy.

[epc]

X2 I used to consider myself a Republican-not now...

X3. I have voted for every republican presidential or gubernatorial candidate since 1990. But now the party of Lincoln has been taken over by religious fanatics and people who are just nuts. The Republicans have resisted every single social progress in the last 100 years. The great prosperity in the 1990's and 2000's have not benefitted the middle class. The census data released yesterday shows the US median household income decreased from 1997 to 2007. I think people knew it instinctively and voted out the Republican Party in 2008. The people who are shouting death panels at townhalls are further alienating the party from the mainstream.

The Repuicans' waving of papers during Obama's speech? Just another political theater like Joe Wilson's "spontaneous" outburst. Where were all those papers and policy ideas when I voted them into the whitehouse and congress all thsoe years??

I voted for McCain and Palin. I still respect McCain tremendously, but now I'm glad Palin is not a VP. The Repuican Party would have been better off if there were more McCains than Palins. Sadly it's the other way around.

[Crux]

Get rid of that F*cking avatar of Hitler eating a watermelon you inbred POS...


Ahh, you had to resort to ripping on his avatar and insulting him?

Some Forum Rules


The Do's

1. Be civil to your fellow forum user. They'll respect you if you respect them.


5. Don't use racism in any form including derogatory statements about the Islamic faith or any other faith. Likewise extended religious ranting will see you booted out the door.

[brainplay]

If there is concern that illegal immigrants are going to abuse the system, implement something like we have in Canada. If you are citizen, or a landed immigrant, you get a health card ID, that you need to use anytime you visit a doctor, or a hospital. If you don't have one, then you have to pay for your care out of your pocket. Of course, if it's a situation where they are taken to the emergency room, things get a bit more complicated, but its still controllable. At least at that point you can call in the immigration department to came an arrest that illegal.

Danielc, we have sanctuary cities where the police are not even allowed to ask citizen status. Various states are issuing state ID's to illegal aliens. They have political and moral support from many who think its inhumane to make "those poor illegals pay for their own health care out of their own pocket when they can't afford it." Do you really think that the left is going to let that happen? Yes, its dumb. But that's nation I live in.


I get that part. But what if there was a Citizens Health Association like my GEHA insurance where every open season large blocks of people were allowed to pick from a great pool of plans and get a much better price break? Wouldn't that seem like a decent way to get everyone some insurance if they want some?


That's one of the Republican plans.......

[Chulo]

Let me break this down for you champ...

If you're willing to take benefits from a government run bureaucracy like Medicare or Social Security that is a tacit endorsement of that function of government. Saying you don't believe in "Government takeovers" of human services, is like saying you don't think the bureaucracy is capable of handling those services. If they can't provide health insurance to the people that can't get it on their own how could they provide it to our seniors??? Or our Veterans??? How do they provide it to our elected officials??

By the way...Get rid of that F*cking avatar of Hitler eating a watermelon you inbred POS... As if it wasn't possible to embarass yourself within the anonymity of the internet you have found a way to show your true colors...
I wonder what twisted your panties up in a bunch. We normally get along here in these discussions without having to personally attack someone, never mind their avatar. Now if me making fun of Hitler offends you, i am sorry. But I exercise my right to have any avatar i want as long as it conforms to the forum rules.
As for showing your true colors, your hateful statements to people you disagree with speaks more than my desire to make fun of Hitler, or me stating my opinions.

Having to pay taxes does not mean you endorse everything the government does. You are taking things out of context and making things up. Please tell me where i said:

Saying you don't believe in "Government takeovers" of human services,
I said i dont believe in government takeover of the health care system. Not human services. Then again, maybe we should cover the basics and figure out what our opinions are on the role of government and the and the intent of the development of the Republic of the United States.

is like saying you don't think the bureaucracy is capable of handling those services.

Oh they can, but not efficiently and at the cost of your own liberties.

If they can't provide health insurance to the people that can't get it on their own how could they provide it to our seniors??? Or our Veterans??? How do they provide it to our elected officials??
Well look at those systems, then again, you dont have much to compare to , but are you saying that our social security plan is working out great? Its a wonderful government run ponzi scheme that is running out. (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Politics/story?id=7571108&page=1)

As for your statement on providing it to elected officials? You are right, just how the hell do they give them full coverage and the BEST health care for those who are supposed to be representing us and working in our intrest. The term "public servant" does not seem to apply any more, rather it is that we are now the "servant public" that should keep them in power.

I think your anger stems from the distinct differences in opinion between you and others. And I think the role of the federal government is to set policy, and laws for the promotion of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And that would be because the very Constitution ensures that the government is only second to the people.

[Sakop]

^Bravo! Bravo!