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Lt-Col A. Tack
09-15-2009, 02:56 PM
U.S. Rethinks Nuclear Strategy

Sep 3, 2009

Bill Sweetman/Omaha, Neb.

The Obama administration's Quadrennial Defense Review and a parallel review of U.S. nuclear posture could give the go-ahead to two long-debated programs: a next-generation missile-launching submarine (SSBN) and a new nuclear warhead.

If so, it will be a relief to nuclear insiders who worry that the topic of deterrence has been ignored for too long in the U.S., while nations like France, the U.K., Russia and China outpace U.S. modernization plans.

"It's been the better part of two decades since most of us in the Defense Dept. invested the necessary time in the topic of strategic deterrence," Lt. Gen. Kevin Chilton, leader of U.S. Strategic Command, said here in July, kicking off the biggest conference in years on the subject, the U.S. Stratcom Deterrence Symposium.

"We've allowed an entire generation to skip class. We've allowed our understanding to plateau--but it turned out that the plateau was a ledge, and we've stayed too long on that ledge."

The Obama administration entered office with a commitment to reduce the "numbers, roles and emphasis" associated with nuclear weapons and start the world on a "path to zero." Arms negotiations with Russia have restarted and there is renewed emphasis on non-proliferation measures such as test bans and controls on fissile material.

But at the same time, some planners, theorists in deterrence and military leaders are concerned that there is a new nuclear calculus that U.S. leadership's actions may not reflect. As John Hamre, former deputy Defense secretary and now president of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, puts it, "We [in the U.S.] don't think nuclear weapons are useful. We think they are dangerous. But most countries think they are useful."

Indeed they are. Vice Adm. Robert Harward, deputy commander of U.S. Joint Forces Command, reported on a five-day Joint Operating Environment war game held last November. It reflected some probabilities: That rising nuclear powers might be willing to use tactical nuclear weapons, and that both state and non-state actors "would not view nuclear weapons as a first resort, but might not see them as a last resort." The result: "The presence of nuclear weapons brought on operational paralysis."

Adds Frank Miller, a former arms policy official under the George W. Bush administration: "Iran and North Korea are not using nuclear weapons to deter U.S. nuclear weapons; they are using them to deter our conventional forces."

It is not only rogue states and new nuclear powers that are developing weapons. Russia and China, with all three "new nuke" states on its borders, have programs for delivery vehicles and new warheads. Later this year, France will become the first nation to publicly field a nuclear warhead--the TNA (airborne nuclear warhead) for the ASMP--A air-launched missile--that has been designed and developed without nuclear testing. The TNO oceanic warhead for the submarine-launched M51 follows next year. Despite a current debate, the U.K.'s decision to develop a nuclear warhead (also without testing), together with a new missile submarine class, stands as official policy.

The U.S. is reviewing its nuclear posture. The Clinton administration renounced nuclear testing in 1996 and directed the Energy Dept.'s national laboratories to find ways to measure the reliability of stockpiled weapons, and develop new warheads, without testing.

This has been accomplished and the labs are confident that a new Reliable Replacement Warhead (RRW) can be developed, but Congress routinely blocks spending on it.

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Director George Miller comments: "There is an increasingly rare group of people who have developed a nuclear weapon and added it to the stockpile." He adds, "I read that the three of us"--Miller and his counterparts at Sandia and Los Alamos Laboratories--"have certified the stockpile, but what we do is assess it and tell people, and there are reasons why those assessment letters are classified." In the current "stewardship" program "there are a lot of issues that have tested our mettle and we see more looming on the horizon."

Veteran technologist John Foster, who started at Livermore in 1948, is more direct. "If the labs are not permitted to practice design, then the development of any warhead can't assume competence and proficiency, and a credible deterrent cannot be maintained."

RRW opponents argue that concerns over the aging of warheads are overstated--after all, the life of plutonium is pretty well unlimited--but lab directors are not so sure.

Livermore's Miller calls a nuclear warhead "a wonderful chemistry experiment" in which, over time, low-level radiation from the plutonium "pit" affects almost every component in the system. Old technology is another issue. Sandia Director Tom Hunter's reaction to a call to rebuild one warhead subsystem was that "I was being asked how much it would cost to make an eight-track player."

If there is one big upside to the development of an RRW, aside from hedging against unexpected aging issues, it is summed up as "surety." A great deal of the cost of sustaining nuclear weapons has to do with safeguarding against accidents and theft. But if the weapon were made inherently safer (for instance, by using even more insensitive explosives) and virtually impossible to exploit if stolen, it would be much easier to handle.

Work along these lines has proceeded in the U.K. In a 2005 interview, Livermore Weapons Director Bruce Goodwin remarked that work at the U.K.'s Atomic Weapons Establishment was "vibrant" and aimed at fielding a comprehensive test ban treaty-compliant warhead. He referred to the U.K.'s emphasis on what he called a "smug bomb," known formally as the High Surety Warhead.

Goodwin also said U.S.-U.K. cooperation was closer at the time than it had been for years. Since late 2008, AWE Management Ltd., which operates the U.K. research center, has been majority U.S.-owned, with Lockheed Martin and Jacobs Engineering holding one-third each.

A new deterrent posture could include conventional ballistic missiles (CBMs), a new factor in deterrence, but so far more dangerous to careers than to adversaries. Asked about CBMs at the Space and Missile Defense Conference in Huntsville, Ala., in August, Marine Corps Gen. James E. Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, responded: "You want to see the scar tissue?"

The case for CBMs is strong. "The only systems that we have that can get to the fight in minutes have been nuclear warheads," Cartwright says. "Is that prudent? It is relevant, in that the enemy believes we will use it." Air Force Gen. (ret.) Eugene Habiger, involved in the CBM effort, notes, however, "a 1,000-lb. conventional warhead with a few meters CEP (circular error probable) has the same effect as 50 kilotons at 3,000 ft."

CBM, Habiger told the Omaha conference, "was a great idea. The Navy calculated that they could provide 100 CBMs for $500 million. But Stratcom didn't get the regional [commanders-in-chief] involved to persuade the secretaries of State and Defense that we needed it, and that was a great way to kill it."

However, as Cartwright noted, the initial CBM--Conventional Trident--is being brought to a point where it could be fielded within 18 months (as Congress directed). Also, tests being conducted in "four to five months" will demonstrate technologies to deal with "ambiguity issues"--the problem of demonstrating that a missile launch is not nuclear. "That's seen as more of a way forward."

CBM at least begins to respond to another important question: Are nuclear weapons a credible deterrent against a chemical or biological threat? "Is it credible to use the threat of a nuclear warhead against a chemical attack that kills 1,000 people?"

Hamre asks, adding, "It's not helpful to have policies based on your own confusion."

Link (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=dti&id=news/NUKE090309.xml&headline=U.S.%20Rethinks%20Nuclear%20Strategy)

domokun
09-15-2009, 03:38 PM
Seems like there is always something more urgent to defense budgets on... at least until Ohio-class becomes either obsolete or too worn out.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-15-2009, 03:41 PM
I hadn't hear about France's TNA (airborne nuclear warhead) or the ASMP (A air-launched missile)

Reminds me of the Skybolt (GAM-87A) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAM-87_Skybolt)



Seems like there is always something more urgent to defense budgets on... at least until Ohio-class becomes either obsolete or too worn out.
I think if we start now, it won't be so expensive.

vryhpyammoadded
09-15-2009, 03:48 PM
Wow, that got me remembering watching the USS Ohio being built at EB and realizing that was thirty years ago! Sheesh… Yep, we need a new SSBN class soon.

Mu-Meson
09-15-2009, 04:52 PM
If so, it will be a relief to nuclear insiders who worry that the topic of deterrence has been ignored for too long in the U.S., while nations like France, the U.K., Russia and China outpace U.S. modernization plans.

It looks to me like the UK's "modernization plans" consist mainly of disarnament. Aren't they talking about scrapping their nukes to save money?

Paddy51
09-15-2009, 04:57 PM
It looks to me like the UK's "modernization plans" consist mainly of disarnament. Aren't they talking about scrapping their nukes to save money?

The debate in the UK has centred around the question of whether to replace Trident or not. The government has been largely leaning towards a replacement programme but have been putting off any detailed discussion, such as "replace with what".

I suspect that with the credit crunch and recession the question of replacement will be raised again.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-15-2009, 05:07 PM
It looks to me like the UK's "modernization plans" consist mainly of disarnament. Aren't they talking about scrapping their nukes to save money?

I think some think tank promoted that idea.

I think I'm right in saying Blair's idea was to reduce but not eliminate the UK nuclear stockpile.

Blair: Retain UK Nuclear Weapons (http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2007_01-02/Blair)

Paddy51
09-15-2009, 05:15 PM
Partly the debate in the UK has been characterized by those that want to scrap everything either for ideological reasons and/or economy. There is however, a strong argument that is perhaps growing that says that there should not be cuts in funding but the money should be diverted to other areas, e.g. to support land forces in Afghanistan.

Many see Trident as "useless" except as a deterrent. After all the subs don't attack other subs or ships and don't fire missiles at land targets. Tridents just hide...

I recently saw a suggestion that Trident should be replaced by hunter killer nuke subs that carry nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles. This could be the deterrent. However, it was stated that this could not be done for technical reasons. No explanation and I am curious about this. On my list of things to research when I have a moment.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-15-2009, 05:31 PM
I recently saw a suggestion that Trident should be replaced by hunter killer nuke subs that carry nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles. This could be the deterrent. However, it was stated that this could not be done for technical reasons. No explanation and I am curious about this. On my list of things to research when I have a moment.
That is an odd argument. We can launch Tomahawks from subs. In fact our SSGNs carry quite a few Tomahawks and at one time there was a nuclear Tomahawk. Don't know if this is permitted under INF agreement though.

Tomahawks aren't terribly fast, though. I would think something like the big Russian supersonic cruise missiles would be more survivable.

Does the UK have any land based ICBMs?

Shadowstorm
09-15-2009, 05:39 PM
That is an odd argument. We can launch Tomahawks from subs. In fact our SSGNs carry quite a few Tomahawks and at one time there was a nuclear Tomahawk. Don't know if this is permitted under INF agreement though.

Tomahawks aren't terribly fast, though. I would think something like the big Russian supersonic cruise missiles would be more survivable.

Does the UK have an land based ICBMs?
Nope, but they had plans to build there own MRBM's back in the 1950's, but were canceled because of venerability and cost, so decided to go with stand-off missiles for the V-Bombers instead.

Paddy51
09-15-2009, 05:39 PM
That is an odd argument. We can launch Tomahawks from subs. In fact our SSGNs carry quite a few Tomahawks and at one time there was a nuclear Tomahawk. Don't know if this is permitted under INF agreement though.

Tomahawks aren't terribly fast, though. I would think something like the big Russian supersonic cruise missiles would be more survivable.

Does the UK have any land based ICBMs?

The "technical" problem may of course be INF agreement! The UK have never had their own land based ICBMs as far I know. I think blue streak was to be such but was cancelled. We did of course house US land based cruise missiles for a while. The UK did have air launched nuclear bombs and rockets at one point but these were phased out a long time ago in favour of sub based systems.

domokun
09-15-2009, 05:40 PM
Does the UK have any land based ICBMs?

Nope, no land based missiles. RAF has (or at least had) tactical nukes for aircraft, but that is another thing.

Subsonic cruise missile relatively easy target for defense when compared ballistic missiles.

Shadowstorm
09-15-2009, 05:44 PM
Here's some information about the Blue Streak MRBM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Streak_missile

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/6133/bluestreak.html

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/films/1951to1964/filmpage_rocket.htm

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-15-2009, 05:51 PM
Nope, but they had plans to build there own IRBM's back in the 1950's, but were canceled because of venerability and cost, so decided to go with stand-off missiles instead for the V-Bombers instead.

The "technical" problem may of course be INF agreement! The UK have never had their own land based ICBMs as far I know. I think blue streak was to be such but was cancelled. We did of course house US land based cruise missiles for a while. The UK did have air launched nuclear bombs and rockets at one point but these were phased out a long time ago in favour of sub based systems.

Nope, no land based missiles. RAF has (or at least had) tactical nukes for aircraft, but that is another thing.

Subsonic cruise missile relatively easy target for defense when compared ballistic missiles.

Many thanks, everybody.

I know at one time the UK was interested in the Skybolt (GAM-87A) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAM-87_Skybolt), which would have been an medium-range ballistic missile

Paddy51
09-15-2009, 05:57 PM
The history of Skybolt on Wiki makes for interesting reading. I did not know that Polaris came of the "Skybolt crisis". :-)

Elbs
09-15-2009, 06:02 PM
That is an odd argument. We can launch Tomahawks from subs. In fact our SSGNs carry quite a few Tomahawks and at one time there was a nuclear Tomahawk. Don't know if this is permitted under INF agreement though.

Tomahawks aren't terribly fast, though. I would think something like the big Russian supersonic cruise missiles would be more survivable.

Does the UK have any land based ICBMs?

Good points Lt. Col.

Another point to consider: you can't launch at targets from within your own waters with Tomahawk. A boomer doesn't even have to leave US waters to launch Trident D5s.

A Tomahawk can be intercepted. A Trident D-5 with decoys and MIRVs... that's another, much more difficult proposition.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-15-2009, 06:10 PM
Good points Lt. Col.

Another point to consider: you can't launch at targets from within your own waters with Tomahawk. A boomer doesn't even have to leave US waters to launch Trident D5s.

A Tomahawk can be intercepted. A Trident D-5 with decoys and MIRVs... that's another, much more difficult proposition.

I thought this part was interesting


A new deterrent posture could include conventional ballistic missiles (CBMs), a new factor in deterrence, but so far more dangerous to careers than to adversaries. Asked about CBMs at the Space and Missile Defense Conference in Huntsville, Ala., in August, Marine Corps Gen. James E. Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, responded: "You want to see the scar tissue?"

The case for CBMs is strong.

"The only systems that we have that can get to the fight in minutes have been nuclear warheads," Cartwright says. "Is that prudent? It is relevant, in that the enemy believes we will use it." Air Force Gen. (ret.)

Eugene Habiger, involved in the CBM effort, notes, however, "a 1,000-lb. conventional warhead with a few meters CEP (circular error probable) has the same effect as 50 kilotons at 3,000 ft."

CBM, Habiger told the Omaha conference, "was a great idea. The Navy calculated that they could provide 100 CBMs for $500 million. But Stratcom didn't get the regional [commanders-in-chief] involved to persuade the secretaries of State and Defense that we needed it, and that was a great way to kill it."

However, as Cartwright noted, the initial CBM--Conventional Trident--is being brought to a point where it could be fielded within 18 months (as Congress directed). Also, tests being conducted in "four to five months" will demonstrate technologies to deal with "ambiguity issues"--the problem of demonstrating that a missile launch is not nuclear. "That's seen as more of a way forward."

CBM at least begins to respond to another important question: Are nuclear weapons a credible deterrent against a chemical or biological threat? "Is it credible to use the threat of a nuclear warhead against a chemical attack that kills 1,000 people?"

Hamre asks, adding, "It's not helpful to have policies based on your own confusion."

I believe we need to maintain (and improve) our strategic weapon systems, but they really can't be used for anything tactical.

Shadowstorm
09-15-2009, 06:16 PM
I thought this part was interesting



I believe we need to maintain (and improve) our strategic weapon systems, but they really can't be used for anything tactical.
Hm, that CBM proposal reminds Taiwanese diesel submarine project fiasco when the United States was planning to build them for until US Navy along with Congress and Senate put end to that proposal.

Oops my fault, I thought it was conventional powered ballistic missile submarines. I misread it.

Paddy51
09-15-2009, 06:16 PM
I thought this part was interesting



I believe we need to maintain (and improve) our strategic weapon systems, but they really can't be used for anything tactical.

I agree - this also caught my eye. Are there any agreements on the use of "long range missiles" with conventional warheads? It is an interesting idea to bomb a target from a great distance like this. Nuclear or not, would not such a capability offer a deterent?

Elbs
09-15-2009, 06:19 PM
I believe we need to maintain (and improve) our strategic weapon systems, but they really can't be used for anything tactical.

Fully agree. The risks outweigh the benefits. I think the solution to time sensitive targets is going to be in hypersonics, like RATTLRS and other concepts.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-15-2009, 06:23 PM
I agree - this also caught my eye. Are there any agreements on the use of "long range missiles" with conventional warheads? It is an interesting idea to bomb a target from a great distance like this. Nuclear or not, would not such a capability offer a deterent?
These could be used. Most western nations, I quite sure, would only use nuclear weapons only under the most extreme circumstances. The most expensive weapons we can never use.

Might be a respectable alternative to a nuclear ICBM, not that have any qualms with the UK having nuclear ICBMs.

JRT
09-16-2009, 08:11 AM
Just imagine the reactions in Moscow if a Cosmos satellite picked up several ICBM launches in North America, how would they know where they are being launched at and with what warhead? They would very well assume they are nuclear armed, launched towards Russia. That couldn't be verified until the calculated flight time suggested the missiles would be in range of Russia's BMEWS. By that time a launch command for the SS-18's, SS-19's and SS-27's would already be in.

JRT
09-16-2009, 08:13 AM
These could be used. Most western nations, I quite sure, would only use nuclear weapons only under the most extreme circumstances. The most expensive weapons we can never use.

Might be a respectable alternative to a nuclear ICBM, not that have any qualms with the UK having nuclear ICBMs.

The UK cannot afford to have both SLBM's and ICBM's. The former offers both 1st and 2nd strike capability, while the latter would offer only 1st. They would never have the pounds to make enough silo-launched weapons to survive a saturation attack.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-16-2009, 09:17 AM
Just imagine the reactions in Moscow if a Cosmos satellite picked up several ICBM launches in North America, how would they know where they are being launched at and with what warhead? They would very well assume they are nuclear armed, launched towards Russia. That couldn't be verified until the calculated flight time suggested the missiles would be in range of Russia's BMEWS. By that time a launch command for the SS-18's, SS-19's and SS-27's would already be in.

From the article:

"Also, tests being conducted in "four to five months" will demonstrate technologies to deal with "ambiguity issues"--the problem of demonstrating that a missile launch is not nuclear."

Paddy51
09-16-2009, 01:07 PM
From the article:

"Also, tests being conducted in "four to five months" will demonstrate technologies to deal with "ambiguity issues"--the problem of demonstrating that a missile launch is not nuclear."

I found those words interesting and wondered what was meant? How would you verify that a launch is not nuclear? I am assuming that this would involve some kind of technology that might detect the presence of a nuke?

Paddy51
09-16-2009, 01:11 PM
Just imagine the reactions in Moscow if a Cosmos satellite picked up several ICBM launches in North America, how would they know where they are being launched at and with what warhead? They would very well assume they are nuclear armed, launched towards Russia. That couldn't be verified until the calculated flight time suggested the missiles would be in range of Russia's BMEWS. By that time a launch command for the SS-18's, SS-19's and SS-27's would already be in.

Valid points obviously. I read years ago that NATO had got upset by what appeared to be a missile launch in the Middle East. There were moments of worry and confusion until it was realised that the "missile" was not moving. This turned out to be fire in an oil or gas well that obviously produced a big heat signature that was picked up by satellites. p-)

JRT
09-16-2009, 02:09 PM
From the article:

"Also, tests being conducted in "four to five months" will demonstrate technologies to deal with "ambiguity issues"--the problem of demonstrating that a missile launch is not nuclear."

I would be quite surprised if such technology exists and even if it did, I'd be even more surprise if such technology was handed over to Russia by the US.

But maybe it's just me being overly sceptical.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-16-2009, 02:20 PM
I found those words interesting and wondered what was meant? How would you verify that a launch is not nuclear? I am assuming that this would involve some kind of technology that might detect the presence of a nuke?


I would be quite surprised if such technology exists and even if it did, I'd be even more surprise if such technology was handed over to Russia by the US.

But maybe it's just me being overly sceptical.

I would think a transponder would be a reasonable way to approach the problem.

Paddy51
09-16-2009, 03:28 PM
I would think a transponder would be a reasonable way to approach the problem.

OK, we are then talking about some kind of FOF system? I do not understand how that would indicate the presence of a nuke or rather the absence of one.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-16-2009, 04:04 PM
OK, we are then talking about some kind of FOF system? I do not understand how that would indicate the presence of a nuke or rather the absence of one.
My thinking was that we would establish procedures to identify a non-nuclear icbm.
Maybe we could establish an office of some kind, manned by military personnel from both countries.

Russia can likely establish a few things from orbit:
1) where the missile is being launched from
2) where its trajectory terminates
3) the number of launches. Given that retaliation would be massive; I think it unlikely that the US would attack Russia with just one ICBM.

I am a bit worried that any radio frequency identification could be intercepted by the target or relayed to the target.


Cartwright may have something completely different in mind, who knows.

Paddy51
09-16-2009, 04:16 PM
My thinking was that we would establish procedures to identify a non-nuclear icbm

Russia can likely establish a few things from orbit:
1) where the missile is being launched from
2) where its trajectory terminates
3) the number of launches. Given that retaliation would be massive; I think it unlikely that the US would attack Russia with just one ICBM.

I am a bit worried that any radio frequency identification could be intercepted by the target or relayed to the target.


Cartwright may have something completely different in mind, who knows.

Old Cold War enemies Russia and NATO are now "friends" and I believe do have representatives stationed in each other's military control centres as observers. Might it not therefore be possible to inform each other that non nuclear missiles are about to be used?

In the current world climate, it would seem unlikely that e.g. the USA would want to fire a non-nuke ICBM at Russia but might want to do so against another country.

When the shock and awe campaign against Iraq started, might that have been a scenario where such missiles might have been used?

2495
09-16-2009, 04:41 PM
I cannot believe they are going back to this conventional ICBM issue. Its insanity, total and utter insanity. The Russian are rightly pissed about it, so are the Chinese.

Its one think to notify about a test or a satellite launch, but to have a submarine launched ICBM as a weapon of first choice? total, utter insanity.

They only have to wait 18 months to 2 years till the tech at TRL 5/6 becomes available, and then the USA will have its system, mounted on B-52s that will be able to strike at any point on the globe within 55 minutes.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-16-2009, 04:47 PM
Old Cold War enemies Russia and NATO are now "friends" and I believe do have representatives stationed in each other's military control centres as observers. Might it not therefore be possible to inform each other that non nuclear missiles are about to be used?I don't see why not.


In the current world climate, it would seem unlikely that e.g. the USA would want to fire a non-nuke ICBM at Russia but might want to do so against another country.

When the shock and awe campaign against Iraq started, might that have been a scenario where such missiles might have been used?
Some of the targets were inside Baghdad; I think a conventional ICBM would have been a rather large munition (a 1,000-lb. conventional warhead, Eugene Habiger) to use in such a case.

IIRC, we used quite a few Tomahawks

Also, we attacked a restaurant with (1) or (2) 2,000 JDAMs.
Total time from time the tip was received to the time the bombs were dropped was 47 minutes Link (http://books.google.com/books?id=4fXKcszQhG0C&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=b-1+saddam+hussein&source=bl&ots=uvlq1rdxyn&sig=9KSHTjBXNWyghy_miSDMt8VbRl8&hl=en&ei=4kuxSoSoI5K2Nt687fIN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=b-1%20saddam%20hussein&f=false).

But we had an orbiting B-1 in that case.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-16-2009, 04:56 PM
I cannot believe they are going back to this conventional ICBM issue. Its insanity, total and utter insanity. The Russian are rightly pissed about it, so are the Chinese.

Its one think to notify about a test or a satellite launch, but to have a submarine launched ICBM as a weapon of first choice? total, utter insanity.

They only have to wait 18 months to 2 years till the tech at TRL 5/6 becomes available, and then the USA will have its system, mounted on B-52s that will be able to strike at any point on the globe within 55 minutes.

I have to admit, I'm surprised it is still in progress. I wouldn't have thought that this administration would support development. I just talk about the conventional ICBM in the abstract.

Paddy51
09-16-2009, 04:59 PM
I cannot believe they are going back to this conventional ICBM issue. Its insanity, total and utter insanity. The Russian are rightly pissed about it, so are the Chinese.

Its one think to notify about a test or a satellite launch, but to have a submarine launched ICBM as a weapon of first choice? total, utter insanity.

They only have to wait 18 months to 2 years till the tech at TRL 5/6 becomes available, and then the USA will have its system, mounted on B-52s that will be able to strike at any point on the globe within 55 minutes.

It does seem a bit strange. Deploying such weapons is bound to cause a great deal of mistrust that is for sure. What is the perceived military advantage?

2495
09-16-2009, 05:00 PM
I have to admit, I'm surprised it is still in progress. I wouldn't have thought that this administration would support development.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7877/84482618.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5782/27403177.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5621/94115934.jpg

2495
09-16-2009, 05:02 PM
It does seem a bit strange. Deploying such weapons is bound to cause a great deal of mistrust that is for sure. What is the perceived military advantage?

Depth of strike, lack of ability to intercept, hitting deeply buried targets and the ability to have it submarine launched and thus always available unlike manned aircraft.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-16-2009, 05:13 PM
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5621/94115934.jpg

Very cool, sir. What program is that?

2495
09-16-2009, 05:19 PM
That is the Boeing Phantom Works X-51A wave rider mach 6 missile system.

Testing 'cough cough' starts this winter. However, theres been some really strange sonic booms around the missile test ranges off the West coast the last few months.

Lt-Col A. Tack
09-16-2009, 05:29 PM
Thank you, sir.

Alpheus
09-16-2009, 05:36 PM
That is the Boeing Phantom Works X-51A wave rider mach 6 missile system.

Testing 'cough cough' starts this winter. However, theres been some really strange sonic booms around the missile test ranges off the West coast the last few months.

How do you know all this stuff? Do you work in the industry, or are you just a really, really big military nerd? :)

domokun
09-16-2009, 06:16 PM
How do you know all this stuff? Do you work in the industry, or are you just a really, really big military nerd? :)

Follow news, x-planes tend to make those.

Strange sonic booms tend to mostly hmmm.... excite tin foil hat folks, but sometimes even they got things at least partially right. Real reason is rarely what they claim, but still. Official news of what actually happened usually comes out few months later and even that usually is either down played or opposite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-plane

http://history.nasa.gov/monograph31.pdf

Paddy51
09-17-2009, 04:19 AM
Depth of strike, lack of ability to intercept, hitting deeply buried targets and the ability to have it submarine launched and thus always available unlike manned aircraft.

Thanks. In other words every advantage possible, except possibly starting a nuclear war....

Paddy51
09-17-2009, 04:22 AM
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7877/84482618.jpg





Thank you. Wow - that is one cool looking system ....

vryhpyammoadded
09-17-2009, 10:52 AM
Meanwhile I hope the USN's RATTLRS development keeps chugging along...
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/rattlrs.jpg