German Army Too Small?

[ren0312]

Due to post Cold War downsizing, Germany's army has been reduced from 360,000 in 1991 to 100,000 today, with 350 MBTs, which is much less France's present manpower of 134,000 men and 400 MBTs, now considering the fact that Germany does lie on a major East West invasion route and its defense plan always depended on having a large army and a sizable armored force to defend its territory, and having a relatively small navy to defend the approaches to the Baltic, is Germany's present army too small for its defense needs?

[Herman the II]

You have to consider that the above is the "peace time" strength. Should there be a major war a.k.a "Verteidigungsfall", Germany can draft all its former conscripts.
However that wont happen, who should invade us? Russia? :lol:

[Schmeiser]

Due to post Cold War downsizing, Germany's army has been reduced from 360,000 in 1991 to 100,000 today, with 350 MBTs, which is much less France's present manpower of 134,000 men and 400 MBTs, now considering the fact that Germany does lie on a major East West invasion route and its defense plan always depended on having a large army and a sizable armored force to defend its territory, and having a relatively small navy to defend the approaches to the Baltic, is Germany's present army too small for its defense needs?


yes,when you look at Germany's geographical position and population of 82 milion people and all German potentials,I think you're right!

[Eztyga]

Depends. What are they planning to do?

[hastati]

France after reduction will have 250 MBT.

[Eztyga]

France after reduction will have 250 MBT.

Panzers roll!

[Warlock762]

Wasn't there a thread about the so called Fulda gap months ago ?

Don't forget the 3:1 ratio.

[Zeckenteppich]

Why should an eastern country attack Germany? MBT are not that important for the modern tasks of the Bundeswehr.

[Eztyga]

Wasn't there a thread about the so called Fulda gap months ago ?

Don't forget the 3:1 ratio.

Thats OK, 2 out of every 3 Frenchmen drop their rifles...p-)

[Tyon]

and its defense plan always depended on having a large army and a sizable armored force to defend its territory, and having a relatively small navy to defend the approaches to the Baltic, is Germany's present army too small for its defense needs?

Uhm what?
Did you miss the end of the USSR? Against which invasion should we defend with lets say 1000 tanks? Poland? Czech Rep? Austria? Switzerland? France? Or the BeNeLux? Or Denmark?

I mean seriously against what country?

[Gammelpreusse]

I think that has a lot to do with the traditon of powerful countries also having powerful armies.

What is missed in this general picture are the changing realities of todays world as a whole and the German position within the EU and NATO. There simply is no need anymore to have a big army. Germany is completly surrounded by friends and allies, no open flank whatsoever. Basicly Germany today achieved it's strategic goals it looked for since Bismarck.

A larger, continental german army would do not nothing but put our neighbours on edge again.

[Rictor]

http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/putin_cold.jpg

*plays Imperial March*

Considering the fact that Germany has no known enemies, I wouldn't say its army is too small.

[hastati]

Have a look - German units having Leopard 2A6, Puma IFV, Pzh2000 artillery, well equipted infantry, plenty of UAVs, strong close air defence and powerfull air support provided by modern jets and helicopters will have enought fire-power to face much larger enemy forces.
They just prefer quailty over numbers - i hope there will be no need to check if it was good choice.

[Gammelpreusse]

http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/putin_cold.jpg

*plays Imperial March*

Considering the fact that Germany has no known enemies, I wouldn't say its army is too small.

reality check:

http://www.tabloidprodigy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/3233774319-putin-prowl-siberia.jpg

*plays YMCA*

Threats look different, like really =)

[Seek]

Have a look - German units having Leopard 2A6, Puma IFV, Pzh2000 artillery, well equipted infantry, plenty of UAVs, strong close air defence and powerfull air support provided by modern jets and helicopters will have enought fire-power to face much larger enemy forces.
They just prefer quailty over numbers - i hope there will be no need to check if it was good choice.

man, that's quite an optimistic qiew of the cluster**** we have for defense procurement... :roll:

[Herman the II]

man, that's quite an optimistic qiew of the cluster**** that is our defense procurement... :roll:

Depends, our armoured brigades are top notch.
I don't see any possible opponent that has superior equipment. We currently have some problems with the rotary aviation, however that should be solved in 2 or 3 years.

[Mackie]

The German army lack in normal infantry. Maybe they will reduce some unefficient logistics and transfer more soldiers in infantry units.

[muck]

Due to post Cold War downsizing, Germany's army has been reduced from 360,000 in 1991 to 100,000 today, with 350 MBTs, which is much less France's present manpower of 134,000 men and 400 MBTs, now considering the fact that Germany does lie on a major East West invasion route and its defense plan always depended on having a large army and a sizable armored force to defend its territory, and having a relatively small navy to defend the approaches to the Baltic, is Germany's present army too small for its defense needs?The modern German Army has 103.000 troops and a standing reserve of 35.000 troops (in German terms, this is a regularily trained reserve assigned to actively support standing units). The number of main battle tanks has been reduced to 395, not 350.
What seems little is actually still a capable fighting force and just enough for the Bundeswehr's current tasks.

Structural problems did arise though from the way how the army was downsized. In terms of figures, no more than 30.000 of these 103.000 troops really are combat troops. A 1:1:1 ratio of combat troops, combat support troops and non-combat troops would sound rational for an army of this size. But one should think that just for aforementioned purpose of support the Joint Support Service of the Bundeswehr was created a couple of years ago. It consists of roughly 35.000 further army personnel such as signallers, logisticians and command-and-support troops.

And we should get rid of our divisions. None except for one division (Division Intervention Forces/1st Armoured) of the German Army is still a real independent fighting force nowadays. They're an administrative department so to speak, but hardly capable of combined arms combat anymore.

The German Army is another modern force with the typical waterhead problem. Many sachems and aides, but few warriors.

[Seek]

Depends, our armoured brigades are top notch.
I don't see any possible opponent that has superior equipment. We currently have some problems with the rotary aviation, however that should be solved in 2 or 3 years.

yeah, but armor is not as important as other things wich are more essential to support our missions abroad.

[cbiwv]

How many of those tanks are Leopard2A6? I remember having the pleasure of going to a formal dinner which was hosted by the German army when I was stationed there. I had a great time and they were great guys.

[Difool]

Of course the German army is to small if it is to fulfill missions all around the world at one time and for several years.

[kato2k6]

How many of those tanks are Leopard2A6?
225.

What hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet is that of course Germany is under size obligations by international treaties (2+4, the one demanded for reunification). And that the Bundeswehr currently is at 70% of that size, and if all viable conscripts every year would actually be drafted (like in tense times such as back in '99) the Bundeswehr would be at around 85-90% of the allowed peacetime level. Before any reservists were drafted. This means that the Bundeswehr could still easily add another division to the peacetime level, maybe even two, but beyond that, it'd be limited without starting to break treaties.


But one should think that just for aforementioned purpose of support the Joint Support Service of the Bundeswehr was created a couple of years ago. It consists of roughly 35.000 further army personnel such as signallers, logisticians and command-and-support troops.

The SKB is mostly the "territorial side" of support. Fixed sites, depots, maintenance plants and such. Sure, these forces also support the combat forces, but it's mostly the trail back to the homeland that they handle - things that e.g. in the US would likely be part of the National Guard, or would be outsourced. The Army Logistics and such are the parts that actually widely deploy with the combat forces.

[cbiwv]

I don't think the German army has a need to get larger. There are no enemies with the logistics to invade Europe nor are there any European nations that look to even be a threat to Germany. Now if Germany is to maintain a presence in Afghanistan then they may need another 50,000 troops to rotate for the war on terror.

[muck]

The SKB is mostly the "territorial side" of support. Fixed sites, depots, maintenance plants and such. Sure, these forces also support the combat forces, but it's mostly the trail back to the homeland that they handle - things that e.g. in the US would likely be part of the National Guard, or would be outsourced. The Army Logistics and such are the parts that actually widely deploy with the combat forces.Yes but nonetheless these forces were a part of the army once. I'm taking all forces into acount which are supposed to conduct or support ground combat by their respective means, the so called Uniformträger Heer as an entity of all army soldiers in all services. Strictly speaking, we've got a 3 : 3.5 : 8.3 ratio of combat to combat support and to non-combat support troops which is a bit poor and also a reason for why we can hardly deploy more than 10.000 troops once at a given time.

[kato2k6]

Well, with the transformation it's supposed to be 25,000 sustainable. Supposed to be, i know.

But yeah, i agree there. A lot of those units would work as reserve cadre units too, say with one-fifth the size active.

[muck]

The (standing) reserve concept isn't that clever either. Although more and more reservists are needed for abroad deployments, the standing reserve is focused too much on civil military cooperation and disaster control.

This is the entire German Army's structure with reserve units marked

1st Armoured Division
: Staff Company
: Army Band 1
: Artillery Regiment 100
:: Staff Battery
:: Armoured Artillery Target Acquisition and Surveillance Battalion 131
:: Rocket Artillery Battalion 132
: Engineer Regiment 100
:: Staff Company
:: Armoured Engineer Battalion 1
:: Heavy Engineer Battalion 130
:: Engineer Battalion 902
: Signals Regiment 1
: Air Defense Regiment 6
: NBC Defense Battalion 7
: NBC Defense Battalion 906
: Reconnaissance Battalion 3
: Logistics Battalion 3
: NBC Defense Company 110
: Light Air Defense Company 610
: Armoured Brigade 9
:: Staff Company
:: Armoured Battalion 33
:: Armoured Battalion 93
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 92
:: Armoured Artillery Battalion 325
:: Armoured Engineer Battalion 90
:: Logistics Battalion 141
:: Reconnaissance Company 90
:: Reconnaissance Company 912
: Armoured Brigade 21
:: Staff Company
:: Armoured Battalion 203
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 212
:: Armoured Artillery Battalion 215
:: Armoured Engineer Battalion 200
:: Logistics Battalion 7
:: Reconnaissance Company 210

10th Armoured Division
: Staff Company
: Army Band 10
: Armoured Brigade 12
:: Staff Company
:: Armoured Battalion 104
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 112
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 122
:: Reconnaissance Battalion 8
:: Armoured Engineer Battalion 4
:: Engineer Battalion 904
:: Signals Battalion 8
:: Logistics Battalion 4
: Mountain Infantry Brigade 23
:: Staff Company
:: Mountain Infantry Battalion 231
:: Mountain Infantry Battalion 232
:: Mountain Infantry Battalion 233
:: Mountain Reconnaissance Battalion 230
:: Mountain Reconnaissance Battalion 911
:: Mountain Signals Battalion 210
:: Mountain Engineer Battalion 8
:: Mountain Engineer Battalion 904
:: Mountain Logistics Battalion 8
:: Mule Company 230

13th Armoured Infantry Division
: Staff Company
: Army Band 2
: Mechanized Infantry Brigade 37
:: Staff Company
:: Armoured Battalion 393
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 371
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 391
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 909
:: Reconnaissance Battalion 13
:: Reconnaissance Battalion 910
:: Armoured Engineer Battalion 701
:: Engineer Battalion 903
:: Signals Battalion 701
:: Logistics Battalion 131
: Mechanized Infantry Brigade 37
:: Staff Company
:: Armoured Battalion 413
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 401
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 411
:: Mechanized Infantry Battalion 908
:: Reconnaissance Battalion 6
:: Armoured Engineer Battalion 803
:: Engineer Battalion 901
:: Signals Battalion 801
:: Logistics Battalion 142

Special Operations Division
: Staff Company
: Army Band 300
: Special Reconnaissance and Surveillance Company 200
: Light Air Defense Battery 100 (Airmobile)
: Special Operations Division Signals Battalion (Airmobile)
: Special Forces Command
: Airborne Brigade 26
:: Staff Company
:: Paratrooper Battalion 261
:: Paratrooper Battalion 263
:: Paratrooper Support Battalion 262
:: Reconnaissance Company 260 (Airmobile)
:: Engineer Company 260 (Airmobile)
: Airborne Brigade 31
:: Staff Company
:: Paratrooper Battalion 313
:: Paratrooper Battalion 373
:: Paratrooper Support Battalion 272
:: Reconnaissance Company 310 (Airmobile)
:: Engineer Company 270 (Airmobile)

Airmobile Operations Division
: Staff Company
: Army Band 12
: Medium Transport Helicopter Regiment 15
: Medium Transport Helicopter Regiment 25
: Light Transport Helicopter Regiment 30
: Airmobile Operations Division Signals Battalion
: Airmobile Brigade 1
:: Staff Squadron
:: Air Assault Infantry Regiment 1
:: Attack Helicopter Regiment 26
:: Attack Helicopter Regiment 36
:: Light Transport Helicopter Regiment 10
: Army Troops Brigade
:: Staff Company
:: Artillery Regiment 345
:: NBC Defense Regiment 750
:: NBC Defense Battalion 907
:: NBC Defense Battalion 908
:: Armoured Air Defense Battalion 12
:: Light Air Defense Battery 120
:: Light NBC Defense Company 120

: Franco-German Brigade
:: Staff Company (Franco-German)
:: 110th Infantry Regiment (French)
:: Light Infantry Battalion 291 (German)
:: Light Infantry Battalion 292 (German)
:: Rocket Artillery Battalion 295 (German)
:: 3rd Hussars Battalion (French)
:: Support Battalion (Franco-German)
:: Armoured Engineer Company 550 (German)