PDA

View Full Version : Does Flipping off fall under First Amendment Rights



Kilimunati
09-16-2009, 10:51 AM
David Hackbart was mad, and he wanted to show it, but he didn't think he would end up in federal court protecting his right to a rude gesture and demanding that the city of Pittsburgh stop violating the First Amendment rights of its residents.
Hackbart, 34, was looking for a parking space on busy Murray Avenue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood on April 10, 2006. Spotting one, he attempted to back into it, but the driver of the car behind him refused to back up and give him sufficient room. Hackbart responded in the classic way. "I stuck my hand out the window and gave him the finger to say 'Hey, jerk, thanks,' " says Hackbart. "That's all I was trying to say - 'Thanks, thanks a lot.' "
At that moment, a voice rang out telling Hackbart not to make the rude gesture in public. "So I was like, How dare that person tell me? They obviously didn't see what happened. Who are they to tell me what to say?" he says. "So I flipped that person off. And then I looked, and it was a city of Pittsburgh cop in his car right next to me."
That turned out to be police sergeant Brian Elledge, who happened to be passing in the other direction in his cruiser. Elledge whipped around and pulled Hackbart over, citing him under the state's disorderly-conduct law, which bans obscene language and gestures. And here's where the problem lies, says state American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) legal director Witold (Vic) Walczak: the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression. A famous 1971 Supreme Court case upheld the right of a young man to enter the Los Angeles County Court House wearing a jacket emblazoned with the words "F___ the Draft." (Read about how disorderly conduct is often a cop's call.)
"The law is clear that people have the constitutional right to use profanity, especially when it comes to government officials, because that is a form of political speech," Walczak says. "But despite that, we have police officers regularly misapplying the law to punish people who offend them - that's really what it comes down to." (Read a brief history of disorderly conduct.)
U.S. District Judge David Cercone ruled in March that the citation, along with the $119.75 court costs imposed by a city court, was clearly unconstitutional. The question, however, is whether the city has a pattern of tolerating this kind of constitutional violation. The ACLU says it found 188 cases from 2005 to 2007 in which people were cited under similar circumstances, despite an entry in the police department's training manual making clear that vulgar speech is not illegal.
The question was set to go to trial in Federal District Court last week, but the matter was delayed at the last moment while the two sides explored a settlement. The city's law department declined to comment on the case.
The problem is not confined to Pittsburgh. In 2007, a woman in Scranton, Pa., was cited for yelling obscenities at an overflowing toilet in her home - a tirade overheard by her neighbor, an off-duty police officer. She was later acquitted on constitutional grounds, and the city paid her a $19,000 settlement. "We probably handle a dozen of these cases every year," Walczak says. "We're actually negotiating with the state police right now, trying to force them to change their training and written materials to make clear you can't do this."
It is, of course, part of a larger question. The recent controversy over the arrest of historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. - who was charged with disorderly conduct in his home after police arrived to investigate an erroneous report of a burglary in progress - was cast in racial terms: a white officer distrusting a black homeowner. But Walczak says this issue seems to have more to do with a police officer being confronted by an angry and disrespectful person and turning disorderly-conduct laws into a "contempt of cop" law, as he puts it. "Frankly, I think having someone dropping the F-bomb is better than resisting arrest or taking a swipe at a police officer," Walczak says. "But what we're seeing too often is that police who are offended by a lack of respect, often manifested by profanity or cursing, will punish people for that." (Read Ta-Nehisi Coates on the Henry Louis Gates Jr. affair.)
Elledge and the city police department have consistently refused to comment on the case. But Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, says police officers are not out to systematically punish people who mouth off. "There is certainly no substitute for good judgment on the street," says Pasco, whose organization represents officers nationwide, including Pittsburgh, "and if in the officer's judgment, maintenance of order is going to be preserved by giving a citation or making an arrest, then the officer is going to use his judgment to make that arrest or issue that citation." (See pictures of Henry Louis Gates Jr.)
Officers clearly have varying levels of tolerance for rudeness from the people they encounter, he says, but he expressed little sympathy for anyone making rude remarks to or gestures toward officers. "Police officers have better things to do than give people citations," he says. "And if people are doing things to distract police officers from doing those things, then they should be held accountable in some way."
But Hackbart, a paralegal who learned about court rulings on vulgar language in a communications-law class, says police should not be able to punish people by issuing citations they know to be unconstitutional. Elledge "shouldn't be allowed to conduct himself like that with no repercussions," he says. "Does everybody have to go through this to defend themselves against a bogus charge?"

I hate to say it but, "The Land of the Free" thing is slowly slipping away.

grenadier07
09-16-2009, 10:59 AM
If burning the flag is still legal under the First Amendment then we should be allowed to give the one fingered salute as well.

Kilimunati
09-16-2009, 11:03 AM
If burning the flag is still legal under the First Amendment then we should be allowed to give the one fingered salute as well.

Wow...you are going too far with your analogy. Somebody pisses you off in public and you flip the person in the heat of the moment...how's that related to burning the flag. you can do better than that outlandish comparison.

grenadier07
09-16-2009, 11:21 AM
No actually I think the comparison is not outlandish. Both gestures are offensive in nature to most of your average US citizens. The bird is obviously meant as an insult and offensive otherwise people wouldn't do it when pissed at somebody. In the same way but in a larger context of insulting or protesting the actions of the government or just the country in general by people who are pissed off over something, protestors burn the flag. If you're going to allow one why not the other.

seraosha
09-16-2009, 12:11 PM
Wow...you are going too far with your analogy. Somebody pisses you off in public and you flip the person in the heat of the moment...how's that related to burning the flag. you can do better than that outlandish comparison.

Was the asshole that flipped me the bird wearing a flag?

Very relevant.

wigon
09-16-2009, 12:18 PM
I agree with grenadier. The two are very much comparable. However people need to step back a bit from the legal arguements and use a bit of common sense. The guy flipped off a cop. Cops get so much crap day in and day out, that its just a bad idea to flip off a cop and overall really disrespectful. There needs to be a simple law for doing such things such as simply writing a ticket with a one-time $200 fine for a person stupid enough to do that.
If its just a matter of flipping off a stranger, then usually the punishment occurs in the form of getting a fist to your face or getting shot or run off the road by a very angry person experiencing road rage.

Wigon

grenadier07
09-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Oh no doubt that there was a big time lack of situational awareness with flipping off the cop. Please don't take my arguement as condoning such actions.

wigon
09-16-2009, 01:02 PM
Thats where I think lawmakers and judges need to put lawyers in their place and look at this in a matter of degrees of law rather then a zero-sum game. I would be a horrible lawyer as it infuriates me to no end how rigid and inflexible our legal system can be. I applaud judges who show a bit of common sense and who risk their seat as judge by being a bit flexible. I think everyone would agree (other then lawyers out to make $$ or a name for themselves), that someone who flips off a cop (even accidentally) needs to pay some type of penalty such as a reasonable fine. That should have been the end of the issue in the courts... but instead they'll probably try to drag this stupid case to the Supreme Court if they can.

Wigon

Yeti2424
09-16-2009, 02:51 PM
the legal history
of the finger
1977: A state appeals court in Connecticut overturns the conviction of a high school student who gave the finger to a state trooper from the back of his school bus. The officer had stopped behind the bus at a red light.
1980: Police arrest a contractor in Hammond, Louisiana after he paints a 30-foot-high image on a supermarket wall of Mickey Mouse flipping the bird with the caption, "Hey Iran!"
1983: A Texas court upheld a breach of the peace conviction against a student who flipped off his principal during graduation.
1990: In the case of an Arizona man pulled over in 1987 for flipping off a cop, a federal court rules that "no matter how peculiar, abrasive, unruly or distasteful a person's conduct may be, it cannot justify a police stop unless it suggests that some specific crime has been, or is about to be, committed." It also ruled, "We cannot condone Duran's conduct; it was boorish, crass and, initially at least, unjustified. Our hard-working law enforcement officers surely deserve better treatment from members of the public. But disgraceful as Duran's behavior may have been, it was not illegal; criticism of the police is not a crime."
1990: When a patrol helicopter hovers 800 feet over a home in Oceanside, California, the owner grabs a flashlight, aims it at the chopper and flips off the officers. Minutes later, a dozen officers converge on the home, hogtie him and arrest him and his wife. The prosecutor refuses to press charges against the couple, who later win $300,000 in damages.
1991: Police arrest a driver who gave the finger to Santa Claus as he speaks to a girl and her parents in Portsmouth, Rhode Island. Santa turns out to be an off-duty cop.
1995: Jimmie Wayne Jeffers (right), being executed in Arizona for killing his ex-girlfriend in 1976, flips the bird to the warden after being strapped in for his lethal injection. According to witnesses, it is still raised as he dies.
1996: Ohio and seven other states ban Bad Frog Beer because its label shows an amphibian with a webbed finger raised. The brewery argues that because the frog only had four fingers, it couldn't be raising the middle one.
1996: A judge in Mercer County, New Jersey who refused a defense request for a mistrial complains about the reaction of a public defender. "I observed an expression on her face of great anger," he writes. "At the time her left hand was raised and thrust toward the bench with her middle finger in a raised position."
1998: A jury awards a junkyard owner in Arkansas $4000 in damages against a state trooper who arrested him for flipping the bird as they passed on a county road. Earlier that year, the man's nephew had received a $2500 settlement after being arrested for flipping off a different cop.
1998: Police fined a Pennsylvania woman $25 for yelling "**** you!" and flipping off a flag worker. In 2000 the state supreme court reverses the fine, saying that the bird cannot be considered obscene, as required by state law. It rules, "It would be a rare person who would be turned on by the display of a middle finger or the language it represents."
2000: After being interrupted, a school board member in Allentown, Pennsylvania gives the finger to the board president. During his trial, the member argues his gesture had not been ******, and therefore not obscene. But a tape of the meeting shows he'd later threatened to "put some Vaseline" on his bird. A judge fines him $100.
2001: An officer in Medley, Florida arrests a man on obscenity charges for two stickers he had placed on his pickup. One shows a foot-high Calvin of the Calvin & Hobbes strip sticking up his middle finger while he urinates on the names of the driver's ex-girlfriend, her husband and their daughter.
2001: An accused drunk driver asks a Pennsylvania judge to throw out the charge because the cop pursued her only after she flipped him off. An appeals court rules in her favor.
2001: Robert Coggin allegedly gives the finger to a slow driver on a San Antonio highway. The driver calls police, and Coggin spends $15,000 over the next two years to get the $250 fine reversed. An appeals court rules that the digitus impudicus ("impudent finger") is protected speech, especially if its target is not "violently aroused."
2002: A woman representing herself at trial in Calgary, Alberta for reckless driving apologizes to the judge for rolling her eyes and flipping off witnesses who testify against her.
2003: School officials in Waterloo, Ontario suspend a 12-year-old after he gives the finger during the class portrait. "I didn't even realize that my middle finger was sticking out," he claims. His mother says of school officials: "They're not anthropologists. They can't look at a picture and determine someone's intentions."
2003: A judge in Dallas sentences a mechanic to 30 days in jail for contempt after he flips her off during jury selection. The man had ignored her instructions to answer questions verbally rather than by nodding his head.
2003: Five people in the audience at a city council meeting in Chandler, Arizona file a police report after a retired stockbroker gives the council a double-finger salute. They want him charged with disorderly conduct. The retiree, who said he felt the mayor and police had been heckling him, said, "I didn't think it was a crime to give someone the finger."
2004: An American Airlines pilot, irritated that officials at Sao Paulo airport had fingerprinted and photographed him, flipped the bird into the camera (right). Police arrested him for disobeying authority, and a judge fined him $13,000 for "his insult to Brazil's national pride and the federal police."
2006: Police ticketed a motorist in Colchester, England for giving the finger to a camera designed to catch speeders, even though he was driving under the speed limit. The ticket read that Simon Thompson had "used offensive hand gestures toward police in full view of passing public for three to four seconds." Thompson explained, "I wasn’t giving the officers the finger. I was aiming my anger at the camera."


http://www.chiprowe.com/articles/legal-history-finger.html (http://www.chiprowe.com/articles/legal-history-finger.html)

Kaplanr
09-16-2009, 04:24 PM
Sorry but in this case cops shouldn't be a protected class, and flipping someone off shouldn't be a citation deserving offense in most cases. My exceptions would be in the case where it's done with or around a group of children, or in an environment with with a heightened expectation of public civility - the library for example.

The story does resonate with me on so many levels though. 1. I live in Pittsburgh and am always in Sq. Hill. 2. I had sort of the same thing happen to me in the 70s, about a month after I'd gotten my license. Waiting to make a left turn on a busy road, and I can see the police car in the opposite lane - crawling. Better safe than sorry so I waited. He finally gets to the intersection and turns right. I just sort of say (not shout or yell) a five letter exclamation that rhymes with trick. I have to wait 3-4 cars before I can make the left. I turn, travel about 50 feet and see the lights and hear the siren. "What did you say after i made the turn?" Got a lecture, a reminder that I was a probationary driver, but no ticket.

Flounder
09-16-2009, 04:27 PM
Ignorance of the Law is no excuse, citizen.