17.09.2009 - 70-th anniversary of Soviet "back-stab" attack on Poland

[NBDX]

Interesting reason for historical discussion (and maybe next flame war, hope not...)

With 50+ Polish users here (maybe 150+ or even more, I dont know exact data), more or less active, it is strange that no one started discussion here about this historical event....

It seems like all they have own problems in Poland now, despite that Poland is now "economic Tiger of Europe, only country in EU with predicted + 1% GDP at the end of this year"

[shadowsrider]

Because we're discussing it in countless threads together with our Russian friends "Merkel, Putin..." thread, "invasion of Poland" thread etc.
We all know it was protection of Belarussian and Ukrainian people against potential hostile Nazi actions.

And being serious: todays Polish media cover it widely. Also Polish parliament had a problem how to call this action in official statement not to make Russians furious but still to name this thing.

But do we need to start another thread on this?

[NBDX]

Because we're discussing it in countless threads together with our Russian friends "Merkel, Putin..." thread, "invasion of Poland" thread etc.
We all know it was protection of Belarussian and Ukrainian people against potential hostile Nazi actions.

And being serious: todays Polish media cover it widely. Also Polish parliament had a problem how to call this action in official statement not to make Russians furious but still to name this thing.

But do we need to start another thread on this?


Are you drunked already? Or what?

Your - bolded above - sentence should be:

"We all know it was protection of Belarussian and Ukrainian people against potential hostile Nazi actions." :cantbeli:

Without special marks and emoticon someone here can understand that your sentence is serious...


"But do we need to start another thread on this? "

Yes, exactly, for common knowledge.

[Hast2]

I bet i can predict around 15 pages of this threadrofl

[Switek]

Are you drunked already? Or what?

Your - bolded above - sentence should be:

"We all know it was protection of Belarussian and Ukrainian people against potential hostile Nazi actions." :cantbeli:

Without special marks and emoticon someone here can understand that your sentence is serious...


"But do we need to start another thread on this? "

Yes, exactly, for common knowledge.

Some people will never learn what sarcasm is.

[NBDX]

Hast2:

Oh, really?

Switek:

Right, and for those people special marks and emoticons are needed.

[shadowsrider]

I am not sick. Someone had to protect those nations on noones land. Poland collapsed, moreover those lands were grabbed from Belarus and Ukraine in invasion in 1920 so should those people be left for their own fate while Nazis were coming?

[Switek]

I am not sick. Someone had to protect those nations on noones land. Poland collapsed, moreover those lands were grabbed from Belarus and Ukraine in invasion in 1920 so should those people be left for their own fate while Nazis were coming?

"Protection" was the last thing which Stalin considered on August and September of 1939, I guess.

[NBDX]

I am not sick. Someone had to protect those nations on noones land. Poland collapsed, moreover those lands were grabbed from Belarus and Ukraine in invasion in 1920 so should those people be left for their own fate while Nazis were coming?

Bvllshyts, not worth any comment.


And here we catched you: you are probably false Pole, genuine Ukrainian in Poland, grandson of some UPA bandit, ukrainian fascist, murderer of innocent Polish women and children... Right? Are you? For sure!
If not, if you are Pole (not Polish Ukrainian, Polish Jew etc) it could be only most ridiculous example of Polish mental and psycho self-hating Pole ever.

[shadowsrider]

And here we catched you: you are probably false Pole, genuine ukrainian in Poland, grandson of some UPA bandit, ukrainian fascist, murderer of of innocent Polish women and children... Right? Are you? For sure!

Pal... you get provoked too easy... "Murderer", "false Pole", jeez...

[Timmy!]

And here we catched you: you are probably false Pole, genuine ukrainian in Poland, grandson of some UPA bandit, ukrainian fascist, murderer of of innocent Polish women and children... Right? Are you? For sure!
Ahahahahhaha! :D That's just golden! And already on the first page. :)

[Xaito]

if you want a polish circle-jerk, why don't you go discuss it at some polish board where you're undisturbed in living out your fantasies?


Poland is now "economic Tiger of Europe
I think someone forgot to tell the guys who pick strawberries for a meager pay on our local fields...

[shadowsrider]

NBDX tomorrow you'll be reported. Of course I do not believe a single word from this what I wrote but you are mentally sick.

[Switek]

NBDX was few times in this forum IIRC, with the same result. Epic quick fail and permaban.


Poland Strong !!!!!11!!!!1!!!!1!!!!!111!1

:(

[NBDX]

if you want a polish circle-jerk, why don't you go discuss it at some polish board where you're undisturbed in living out your fantasies?


I think someone forgot to tell the guys who pick strawberries for a meager pay on our local fields...

Yes, I forgot but I dont remember what :) As to the Polish strawberries pickers: yes, there are such people. Maybe not only Polish. And what with this? Do you try to negate that according to latest European Commission predictions Poland is only country in EU with + 1% GDP growth now?

[Mr.K]

Bvllshyts, not worth any comment.


And here we catched you: you are probably false Pole, genuine Ukrainian in Poland, grandson of some UPA bandit, ukrainian fascist, murderer of innocent Polish women and children... Right? Are you? For sure!
If not, if you are Pole (not Polish Ukrainian, Polish Jew etc) it could be only most ridiculous example of Polish mental and psycho self-hating Pole ever.


Trow ze fals' Pol dawn ze well! So mai kantry can be free!:)


Yes, I forgot but I dont remember what :) As to the Polish strawberries pickers: yes, there are such people. Maybe not only Polish. And what with this? Do you try to negate that according to latest European Commission predictions Poland is only country in EU with + 1% GDP growth now?

If you still have room to grow, it's because you're undevelopped. Most of the developped countries economy have reached maturity.

[NBDX]

NBDX tomorrow you'll be reported. Of course I do not believe a single word from this what I wrote but you are mentally sick.

Why tomorrow? Perhaps you are now too drunked to do this, right?

Such reporting as in your case is commonly known as "black-mailing" or "kapusiowstwo, szmalcownictwo" in Polish.

Who is here mentaly sick or healthy is obvious.

[NBDX]

NBDX was few times in this forum IIRC, with the same result. Epic quick fail and permaban.

I feel now that I was banned here few times due to your blackmailing, right?

You should be warned that using plain and unmodified photo of general Skrzypczak as your avatar is simply very stupid and it breaks all traditional net rules for avatars usage. Do you have permission from him? No!? And this is the point! Copyrights are another question.

[Switek]

Why tomorrow? Perhaps you are now too drunked to do this, right?

Such reporting as in your case is commonly known as "black-mailing" or "kapusiowstwo, szmalcownictwo" in Polish.

Who is here mentaly sick or healthy is obvious.

My grandma used to say "If you are to do something tomorrow, do it today. Then you will get one day off!"


I did. I reported you and your flamebait posts. The last thing here, for me, is to agree with Russians here. I must take care about my Russophobe opinion I worked so hard.


There are such people who cal me "what a prick" and this is great compliment from them. The same is when you call me "kapuś" or "szmalcownik". Whatever!

[NBDX]

My grandma used to say "If you are to do something tomorrow, do it today. Then you will get one day off!"


I did. I reported you and your flamebait posts. The last thing here, for me, is to agree with Russians here. I must take care about my Russophobe opinion I worked so hard.


There are such people who cal me "what a prick" and this is great compliment from them. The same is when you call me "kapuś" or "szmalcownik". Whatever!

You should report me also to Wiesenthal. This is so clear that I am also antisemite. And homophobe. Because all antisemites are homophobes!!!

[Switek]

You should report me also to Wiesenthal. This is so clear that I am also antisemite. And homophobe. Because all antisemites are homophobes!!!

If you gave such examples it must be a sign of your obsessive efforts to deny it. Go on!

[Mr.K]

Oh man this is too good, Poles fighting eachother. :)

[Switek]

Oh man this is too good, Poles fighting eachother. :)

Indeed the nationality matter makes it more spicy but not nationality is a key here. :lol:

[Xaito]

Oh man this is too good, Poles fighting eachother. :)

Comrade NBXD must have been sent by Putin's neo-KGB to instigate discord between Polish members. p-)

[NBDX]

Oh man this is too good, Poles fighting eachother. :)

Yes, in some cirumstances, Poles can fight hard eachother, even to the last living Pole...:)


OT. Some commentators here should read one rare Polish sci-fi novel from 70-ies. I dont remmember titlle and author, shortly:

Earth in neare future is attacked by aliens, almost all Earth`s cosmic fleet is dramatically destroyed on the spot due to alien`s secret weapon disturbing mentally Earth` pilots of cosmic fighters... The second to last Eart`s line of defence is Nigerian squadron :) (if I remember correctly) which is massacred by aliens. The last stance is Polish squadron. And in final battle Poles miraculously totally destroyed whole alien cosmic fleet despite of alien mental disturbing weapon... Why? Because Polish pilots were already more mentally disturbed :) At the end of this novel, small rest of alien fleet reported to the headquarter, that earthlings in the final battle used theirs most secret weapon: special super-warriors named "The Poles" :)

[Xaito]

alien cosmic fleet vs earth's comic fleet? p-)

[lightfire]

He still can't catch the sarcasm thingy? Too bad..

[Domen]

Always the same - so maybe instead of writing anything here, I will just provide a link to similar discussion on some other forum:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=291241&page=7

Of course everything ended in a very usual way.

Starting with WW2, moving to the war of 1920, then listeing how our Russian friends praise the Soviet Union ("it was such a great country! everyone was happy there! we just wanted to liberate our Slavic brothers!"), "landgrabbing wars of Poland", then to the partitions of Poland, anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe, Casimir the Great and the Union of Lublin, then listening to "why Wilno and Lwow were never Polish", ending on Poland stealing the lands of ancient Kievian Rus...

Of course it wouldn't have been a normal discussion without accusations of "Polish ultranationalism", because of different view on history.

And all Russians are completely arguments-proof and sources-proof.

I'm just tired, no more time wasting.

And - btw - I really don't care if Katyn was a genocide (or part of genocide) or " just " a war crime. It doesn't matter at all.

[Connaught Ranger]

This is a thread with great potential to FAIL!:roll:

[Mr.K]

Yes, in some cirumstances, Poles can fight hard eachother, even to the last living Pole...:)


OT. Some commentators here should read one rare Polish sci-fi novel from 70-ies. I dont remmember titlle and author, shortly:

Earth in neare future is attacked by aliens, almost all Earth`s cosmic fleet is dramatically destroyed on the spot due to alien`s secret weapon disturbing mentally Earth` pilots of cosmic fighters... The second to last Eart`s line of defence is Nigerian squadron :) (if I remember correctly) which is massacred by aliens. The last stance is Polish squadron. And in final battle Poles miraculously totally destroyed whole alien cosmic fleet despite of alien mental disturbing weapon... Why? Because Polish pilots were already more mentally disturbed :) At the end of this novel, small rest of alien fleet reported to the headquarter, that earthlings in the final battle used theirs most secret weapon: special super-warriors named "The Poles" :)

Written in the '70s? thats commie soviet bolshevik propaganda!

[Mordoror]

Earth in neare future is attacked by aliens, almost all Earth`s cosmic fleet is dramatically destroyed on the spot due to alien`s secret weapon disturbing mentally Earth` pilots of cosmic fighters... The second to last Eart`s line of defence is Nigerian squadron :) (if I remember correctly) which is massacred by aliens. The last stance is Polish squadron. And in final battle Poles miraculously totally destroyed whole alien cosmic fleet despite of alien mental disturbing weapon... Why? Because Polish pilots were already more mentally disturbed :) At the end of this novel, small rest of alien fleet reported to the headquarter, that earthlings in the final battle used theirs most secret weapon: special super-warriors named "The Poles" :)

cool story bro :roll:

ah and BTW cool thread also .....:roll:

[Domen]

Interesting reason for historical discussion


Nazi-Soviet cooperation episodes are interesting if it comes to military aspects of this invasion (the only interesting aspects for me). There were at least four battles during the Polish Campaign of 1939 during which direct Soviet-Nazi cooperation on the battlefield against the Polish forces took place.

One of them is also the biggest (and the most bloody for Soviet forces) battle fought by Ukrainian Front during the invasion.

By the way - if somebody is interested, here is a map showing positions of Polish / Soviet / German forces in Eastern Poland soon before the invasion:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=65290&p=1374704#p1374694

[Switek]

Nazi-Soviet cooperation episodes are interesting if it comes to military aspects of this invasion (the only interesting aspects for me). There were at least four battles during the Polish Campaign of 1939 during which direct Soviet-Nazi cooperation on the battlefield against the Polish forces took place.


Please do not post about seige of Grodno and method used by RKKA to decrease morale of Polish defenders and what happened to them later, after the "liberation".

This kind of knowledge is beyond Russian mp.net members abilities of the truth acceptance.

[Domen]

Don't worry - I'm not going to write about these Polish children who were used as "living shields" by Soviet tank crews in Grodno. ;)

There was no any German - Soviet cooperation during the battle of Grodno, I was talking about the 2nd battle of Tomaszow Lubelski as the most important example of German - Soviet cooperation on the battlefield. Here you can read my description of German - Soviet cooperation during this battle in Polish.

At the same time, this battle was the biggest and the bloodiest battle of Soviet Ukrainian Front during the Polish Campaign.

And Soviet participation in this battle is one of the least-known episodes of the campaign (despite numerous Russian and Polish sources which say about it).

I'm going to translate it to English if anyone here would like to read it (I was planning to do it anyway).




22.09.1939:

22 IX – w tym dniu czołowe oddziały 8. Korpusu Strzeleckiego znajdują się na pozycjach nad Bugiem w rejonie Sokala (a tyłowe są jeszcze pod Włodzimierzem).

23.09.1939:

23 IX – delegacja niemiecka do sztabu 6. Armii we Lwowie z prośbą o pomoc w walce z Frontem Północnym, skierowanie 8. Korpusu Strzeleckiego za Bug do rejonu Hrubieszowa w związku z tą prośbą, aby zbadał sytuację i ewentualnie włączył się do bitwy przeciwko Polakom. Jeszcze tego samego dnia wojska korpusu forsują Bug (nie bez oporu wojsk polskich) na odcinku Hrubieszów – Sokal, wchodząc w tym rejonie w styczność bojową z bliżej niezidentyfikowanymi wojskami Polaków – są to elementy wojsk o których mówili im Niemcy. M.in. w rejonie Strzyżów – Hrubieszów batalion rozpoznawczy 81. Dywizji Strzeleckiej toczy dosyć zacięte walki przeciwko jednostkom polskim, które ostatecznie oddają pole i wycofują się w stronę Hrubieszowa. Walki z oddziałami sowieckimi lub przeciwko ukraińskiej dywersji toczą się tego dnia i w dniach następnych także w okolicach wsi Sahryń niedaleko Hrubieszowa i wsi Turkowice pod Tyszowcami, gdzie w walce z Sowietami ginie między innymi oficer z naszego 44 pp (13. Brygada Piechoty). 23 września czerwonoarmiści wjechali również na Zamojszczyznę. Doszło tu tego dnia oraz w dniach kolejnych do wielu bitew oraz jeszcze większej ilości walk i potyczek z oddziałami WP, m.in. pod Rogalinem koło Horodła (zapewne 23 IX), Tyszowcami (24 – 25 IX), Grabowcem (25 IX), Frampolem, Komarowem (walki w dniach 24 – 25 IX), Niemirówkiem w gminie Tarnawatka (25 IX), Miętkiem w gminie Mircze czy też pod Lubyczą Królewską oraz w wielu innych miejscach. Po walkach tych żołnierze sowieccy i kolaborujący z nimi milicjanci (tzw. czerwone opaski) dokonywali niejednokrotnie mordów na żołnierzach i oficerach polskich, policjantach, księżach katolickich, itd.

24.09.1939:

24 IX – rankiem 2. Korpus Konny, 10. Brygada Czołgów oraz 99. Dywizja Strzelecka zostają poinformowane o ciężkiej sytuacji Niemców i obecności silnych wojsk polskich w rejonie Zamość – Tomaszów – Hrubieszów, które to wojska kontratakowały na Niemców w rejonie Tomaszowa. Informuje się je także o rozpoczętych już działaniach 8. Korpusu przeciwko tym siłom polskim na zachód od Bugu. Jednocześnie 2. Korpus Konny otrzymuje rozkaz współdziałania z 8. Korpusem Strzeleckim i w tym celu osiągnięcia do godziny 16:00 w dniu 24 IX rejonu Turinka – Dobrosin – Żółkiew, z wysuniętymi oddziałami w Lipniku, Magierowie oraz Wiszynce Wielkiej oraz wysłania rozpoznania w kierunku Krystynopola, Bełżca i Uhnowa. W razie napotkania większych sił nieprzyjaciela ma on je zaatakować i pojmać. Jednocześnie korpus ma uniemożliwić przebijanie się tych oddziałów polskich na południe od rejonu Lwów – Kamionka Strumiłowa, czyli w kierunku na Węgry.

Tego samego dnia toczą się dalsze uporczywe walki dywizji 8. Korpusu Strzeleckiego z Polakami na terenie powiatu hrubieszowskiego oraz w kierunku na Krasnystaw i Chełm. Po dwugodzinnym, krwawym boju zajęty zostaje Hrubieszów.Toczy się bój pod Husynnem (14 pułk ułanów, szwadron konny PP, baon chemiczny). W rejonie Trzeszczany - Hrubieszów – Terebin sowieckie dywizje strzeleckie 81. oraz 44. meldują walki z oddziałami nieprzyjaciela, które zidentyfikowano jako elementy polskich dywizji piechoty: 41., 1. oraz 5. Również w dniach 24 - 25 IX jednostki sowieckie opanowują w walkach (zapewne przeciwko elementom polskiej 10. Dywizji Piechoty gen. Dindorfa-Ankowicza) miejscowość Komarów, gdzie biorą do niewoli żołnierzy polskich, spośród których bestialsko mordują 17, w tym trzech oficerów.

36. Brygada Czołgów poruszając się w dniu 24 września po osi Nowosiółki – Kobło – Ubrodowice, w kilku potyczkach bierze do niewoli 10 oficerów, 150 żołnierzy oraz zdobywa dwa ciągniki opancerzone.

25.09.1939:

25 IX – w dalszym ciągu trwają uporczywe walki 8. Korpusu Strzeleckiego na terenie powiatu hrubieszowskiego oraz w kierunku na Krasnystaw i Chełm. Tego dnia mają miejsce zacięte walki 81. Dywizji Strzeleckiej z Polakami w rejonie Grabowca, Danczypola i Niemirówka. O skali tych walk świadczy chociażby liczba jeńców – pod Grabowcem Sowieci biorą do niewoli ok. 1000 polskich żołnierzych (m.in. z 27 pułku ułanów i sformowanego ad hoc w Kowlu szwadronu ppor. rez. Antoniego Chorążego). W samym Grabowcu Sowieci zdobywają szpital polowy, w którym znajdowało się co najmniej kilkudziesięciu rannych (zapewne po toczących się tam niedawno walkach z Sowietami) oraz kilku lekarzy. Sowieci zamordowali bestialsko 3 lekarzy oraz 2 rannych podchorążych. Kolejnych 37 rannych żołnierzy zapędzili do pobliskiego Grabowca Góry i tam zakłuli bagnetami. Nieco wcześniej w tej samej miejscowości zamordowali kilku wziętych do niewoli oficerów. W Niemirówku także wzięto do niewoli sporo jeńców – spośród nich zamordowano 14 podchorążych. Również 25 września oddziały sowieckie - wg. Władimira Bieszanowa - opanowują Zamość (być może są to oddziały 87. DS lub 44. DS wysłane z odsieczą 36. Brygadzie Czołgów pod Chełm Lubelski - o czym później - lub też pododdziały samej 36. BCz.), natomiast inne oddziały sowieckie wkraczają tego dnia do Tomaszowa Lubelskiego od strony Bełżca. Jeszcze zanim zajęto Tomaszów, miał miejsce kilkugodzinny bój krasnoarmiejców z 2. pułkiem saperów kaniowskich pod Tyszowcami. Sowieci musieli tam ponieść niemałe straty, gdyż – zapewne rozgoryczeni zaciętością polskiego oporu – zamordowali po bitwie kilkudziesięciu żołnierzy z tego pułku, natomiast majora J. Eborowicza rozstrzelali po uprzednim przeprowadzeniu parodii procesu sądowego.

Z kolei 44. Dywizja Strzelecka toczyła tego dnia walki w kilku miejscach – jeden Oddział Wydzielony zaangażowała w rejonie Zubowic i Tomaszowa, biorąc tam do niewoli ok. 1500 polskich żołnierzy przy stratach własnych (wg. danych sowieckich) 7 zabitych oraz 5 rannych. Inny Oddział Wydzielony – zapewne liczniejszy (gros sił całej dywizji) – zaatakował od tyłu w ścisłej współpracy z niemiecką 8. Dywizją Piechoty wojska generałów Kruszewskiego i Przedrzymirskiego, toczące ciężkie walki (zwłaszcza 39 DP) w rejonie niedawno zdobytego przez Polaków Krasnobrodu. W wyniku tej wspólnej sowiecko-niemieckiej operacji (która trwała trzy dni – od 25 do 27 IX) odbito z rąk polskich Krasnobród po czym przeprowadzono natarcie w kierunku na Rudki, a także – co było głównym jej celem – zmuszono do kapitulacji wojska wspomnianych generałów, które zgodziły się na złożenie broni pod warunkiem przepuszczenia ich przez linie niemieckie w kierunku zachodnim. Obaj generałowie złożyli broń 27 IX, choć wiele spośród ich oddziałów nie uczyniło tego i kontynuowało walki. Natomiast ostatnia, trzecia grupa pododdziałów z 44. DS – w składzie dywizyjnego baonu rozpoznawczego i dywizyjnego baonu czołgów – zmuszona była w ciągu dnia oderwać się od pozostałych sił dywizji i spieszyć z pomocą 36. Brygadzie Czołgów, która napotkała silny opór wojsk polskich i znalazła się w trudnej sytuacji w rejonie Chełma Lubelskiego.

Ta ostatnia – mająca na stanie 196 sprawnych czołgów T-26 oraz 23 samochody pancerne – już od świtu 25 września nacierała kolumnami batalionowymi w kierunku Krasnegostawu i Chełma, napotykając po drodze na silny opór Polaków, niszcząc lub rozbijając wiele polskich jednostek. Dopiero pod samym Chełmem Lubelskim oddziały brygady zostały przez Polaków zatrzymane i znalazły się w bardzo trudnej sytuacji z powodu odcięcia części jej sił pancernych wewnątrz miasta przez oddziały polskie, które odmówiły złożenia broni. Po tym jak oddziały brygady (za wyjątkiem tych odciętych) zostały wypędzone z miasta, ciężkie walki przeniosły się do pobliskich lasów. Dowódca brygady zdecydował się okrążyć miasto i po raz kolejny uderzyć na nie, siłami dwóch batalionów czołgów i batalionu rozpoznawczego. Uderzenie najpewniej nie powiodło się, gdyż wezwano na pomoc wspomniane baony z 44. DS oraz baon czołgów i baon rozpoznawczy z 87. DS.

Również 25 września 14. Dywizja Kawalerii z 2. Korpusu Konnego prowadziła działania oczyszczające i rozpoznawcze w rejonie Rawy Ruskiej a następnie w kierunku na Zamość, blokując w ten sposób możliwość przedostania się oddziałów Frontu Północnego i grup żołnierzy WP ku granicy z Węgrami. Według Władimira Bieszanowa oddziały 14. Dywizji Kawalerii zajęły również Komarów, który został opanowany w dniach 24 - 25 IX, chociaż może tutaj chodzić o powtórne, późniejsze zajęcie.

26.09.1939:

26 IX – tego dnia jakieś pododdziały z 81. oraz 44. dywizji z 8. Korpusu Strzeleckiego wychodzą na rubież Krasnystaw – stacja kolejowa Zawada w odległości 10 – 12 kilometrów od Zamościa. Miasto Zamość już w dniu poprzednim (25 IX) zostało zajęte przez Sowietów (najpewniej przez oddziały, które następnie ruszyły na odsiecz pod Krasnystaw i Chełm Lubelski lub przez elementy 36. BCz.), jednakże teraz oddziały zwiadowcze wspomnianych dywizji wkraczają do Zamościa od strony Szczebrzeszyna wieczorem 26 IX po czym zatrzymują się na wysokości miejskiej stacji kolejowej. 26 lub 25 września (a być może trwały one przez dwa dni) miały też miejsce walki i potyczki z oddziałami polskimi w wielu innych miejscach, między innymi w rejonie wsi Miętkie w gminie Mircze, pod Izbicą czy w rejonie Gołębia.

Tego samego dnia zakończyły się także ostatnie walki w rejonie Chełma Lubelskiego (chociaż wg. części źródeł sowieckich bitwa ta została już rozstrzygnięta przed godziną 18:00 czasu moskiewskiego w dniu 25 września). Łącznie 36. Brygada Czołgów rozbroiła pod Chełmem w dniu 26 września (oraz częściowo już w dniu poprzednim) 8,000 polskich żołnierzy, zdobyła ponad 7,000 karabinów, 1250 rewolwerów, 10 armat polowych, 14 samochodów i 1,5 tysiąca koni. W czasie walk o Chełm Lubelski sama tylko 36. BCz. (nie licząc pododdziałów 44. i 87. DS.) straciła zapewne kilkanaście rozbitych pojazdów pancernych oraz 2 oficerów poległych – liczby poległych podoficerów i szeregowców, a także liczby rannych lub zaginionych oficerów, podoficerów oraz szeregowców Sowieci nie podali. Pewna część wojsk, które uczestniczyły w obronie Chełma przed Sowietami zdołała uniknąć niewoli i odeszła w kierunku na Krasnystaw (gdzie toczyła walki w dniach następnych).

27.09.1939:

27 IX – Sowieci zajmują m.in. Zwierzyniec i Józefów. Tego dnia dogasają już walki pod Krasnobrodem, choć spora część wojsk nie złoży broni i będzie się przebijać.

28.09.1939:

28 IX – Sowieci zajmują m.in. Biłgoraj i wkraczają do Lubaczowa (oddziały z 17. Korpusu Strzeleckiego). Walki pod Moszczanicą. 24. BCz. dociera do Cieszanowa.

[...]

06.10.1939:

6 X – tego dnia "zgodnie z wytycznymi Rady Wojennej Frontu Ukraińskiego został zorganizowany niewielki Oddział Wydzielony z 24. Brygady Czołgów, liczący 152 ludzi oraz kilkanaście wozów bojowych i samochodów transportowych, który otrzymał zadanie ewakuacji zdobytego sprzętu w rejonie Krasnobród – Józefów – Tomaszów, zajętego już przez wojska niemieckie. Oddział wywiózł wiele cennej zdobyczy, m.in. 2 niemieckie czołgi, 2 niemieckie armaty przeciwpancerne, 9 polskich czołgów, 10 polskich tankietek i do 30 armat [polowych ?]." - dosłowny cytat ze sprawozdania dowódcy 24. Brygady Czołgów pułkownika Fołczenkowa.


Of course - all rights reserved - please don't copy.

[Switek]

I know I rather meant the method used by soviet troops, which were much more not standard and even Nazis could lean from them...

[Domen]

Nazis also sometimes used to use crowds of civilians as "living shields". Anyway, this was a very efficient method. :roll:

But Nazis were not executing Polish POWs (especially officers) on such a scale like Soviet forces.

In case if our foreign readers don't know - Soviet forces used to execute captured officers yet during the campaign, not only one year later in Katyn.

Around 7,000 - 7,500 Polish soldiers were killed by RKKA in September of 1939 (total casualties amounted to 20,000 killed and wounded).

It is sometimes estimated that only around 5,000 of them died in combat.

Among murdered POWs was for example general Olszyna-Wilczynski, commander of forces defending Grodno and the neighbouring areas:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/J%C3%B3zef_Olszyna-Wilczy%C5%84ski.PNG

He was murdered by Soviet soldiers on 22.09.1939.

[Switek]

Soviet soldiers used very simple method in identifying enemies of the people - members of intelligentsia and upper classes. They examined hands - if there were no corns, hands were too soft you could be executed at the place.

[Mordoror]

Soviet soldiers used very simple method in identifying enemies of the people - members of intelligentsia and upper classes. They examined hands - if there were no corns, hands were too soft you could be executed at the place.


some proofs or it is another War rumor (i.e i heard somebody who heard somebody who heard somebody who told him he has seen ze evilz (-----) fill the blank with Huns/Jows/Ruskis/etc .... are eating roasted babies) ?? :roll:

[Domen]

There are rather a lot of first-hand accounts saying about that, as well as some Russian sources.

But these were not Soviet soldiers who were examining hands, but members of NKVD.

[Xaito]

There are rather a lot of first-hand accounts saying about that
from people who got executed, right?

[Domen]

from people who got executed, right?


No - from people who didn't have "too soft" hands and survived.

[Mordoror]

you realize that your statement makes you lose any credibility, right
so you basically say that in Grodno which is basically a town (so at 90% full of nomenklatura and intellectual soft handed people) NKVD choosed purposely those ones to be executed on that criteria

well that makes the NKVD the most useless and un efficient death squad of the century because it seems they missed A LOT of their targets

AFAIK there were still scholars, teachers, doctors and any "not manual workers" people in the soviet occupied zone when the German attacked

until you don't give me a link/scanned document, that assesment is, as i said above, a rumor exactly the same that : Jews are making bread with christian child blood or any kind of same BS that is quite common in eastern europe

[savushka]

On one hand - if it weren't for 1939, we wouldn't have such a cozy place as L'viv to go to on vacations. On the other hand - there would be no "were are the real Ukrainians" bitchin' coming from that part of Ukraine.

I think I like things the way they are now p-)

[Switek]

On one hand - if it weren't for 1939, we wouldn't have such a cozy place as L'viv to go to on vacations. On the other hand - there would be no "were are the real Ukrainians" bitchin' coming from that part of Ukraine.

I think I like things the way they are now p-)

You know? Majority of Poles do not miss Lwów (Lviv) or Wilno (Vilnus) :roll:

It's not about land, territory. It's much more about remembrance of atrocities and undeserved suffer.

[shadowsrider]

You know? Majority of Poles do not miss Lwów (Lviv) or Wilno (Vilnus) :roll:

It's not about land, territory. It's much more about remembrance of atrocities and undeserved suffer.

I do, my family owned 2 buildings in central Lviv market square and I am from generations connected with this city.

[shadowsrider]

And here some personal stories of my family connected with the Soviet invasion:

- a member of my family was resting at typical Polish noblesman building (dwór) in regions of contemporary Belarus; Sep 17th the rumours started to spread that Soviets are coming; he was told: go away from here, but we are staying; indeed they took some hunter rifles... my uncle was walking the road and saw 2 Soviet tanks and a crowd of peasants wielding any possible weapons, soon some shots were heard and a black smoke exploded into sky
- My father had to search his things and carefully throw away award for Polish-Ukrainian war he received; it did not save him to be arrested by NKVD very soon in the night

[shadowsrider]

some proofs or it is another War rumor (i.e i heard somebody who heard somebody who heard somebody who told him he has seen ze evilz (-----) fill the blank with Huns/Jows/Ruskis/etc .... are eating roasted babies) ?? :roll:

Its not rumour - it is documented and there are hundreds of witnesses for that.
For example officer's wifes, ordinary soldiers who accompanied them or accidental people. Simply those executions were "picky" : officer was to be killed as "opporessor", the rest as "working class" was "freed".

[Xaito]

Its not rumour - it is documented and there are hundreds of witnesses for that.
For example officer's wifes, ordinary soldiers who accompanied them or accidental people. Simply those executions were "picky" : officer was to be killed as "opporessor", the rest as "working class" was "freed".

this sounds at least more realistic then killing everybody with soft hands :)
now if someone could find some of "documented facts" from a good source it would be nice if he shared it with us.

[Switek]

this sounds at least more realistic then killing everybody with soft hands :)
now if someone could find some of "documented facts" from a good source it would be nice if he shared it with us.

It will be. AFAIK, there is still collecting of the witnesses reports and documents from this period.

[Xaito]

It will be. AFAIK, there is still collecting of the witnesses reports and documents from this period.

aint it a bit too late for that?
Any newly started "investigations" make the impression of "let's change history into what we think it should be like - nobody's left to disagree anyway" on me.
Afair there's some interest in proving Soviet guilt instead of finding the truth for those still digging, no? :)

shadowsrider seemed pretty confident though when he said it's a well documented thing - so maybe there are already good sources there from a time more closer to the actual events?

[shadowsrider]

aint it a bit too late for that?
Any newly started "investigations" make the impression of "let's change history into what we think it should be like - nobody's left to disagree anyway" on me.
Afair there's some interest in proving Soviet guilt instead of finding the truth for those still digging, no? :)

shadowsrider seemed pretty confident though when he said it's a well documented thing - so maybe there are already good sources there from a time more closer to the actual events?

It is not new topic, I was never very deeply interested in it but always when I enter bookstore history dept. there are lots of books refering to this topic since 90s.

The crimes should be distinguished:
- Red Army crimes
- NKVD crimes (more obvious)

Red Army crimes had accidental and emotional character and were typical revenge for casaulties or defence (like sometime Wehrmacht did in Poland)
NKVD of course had prepared plan : lists of people to arrest.

According to Wiki about 2500 Polish soldiers and several hundreds civilians became victims of war crimes during the campaign.


As for Polish interests in it I am asking: what interests? What history changing? Its still gathering facts only.
Imagine that for 50 years no knowledge was allowed to gather, so we had just 20 years for historical research. So imagine we are just in 60's.

[Holycrusader]

cool thread...

People should read this article. Sorry is in Polish...
http://www.dziennik.pl/opinie/article445156/Byl_17_wrzesnia_Groza_narastala_powoli.html

[Switek]

aint it a bit too late for that?
Any newly started "investigations" make the impression of "let's change history into what we think it should be like - nobody's left to disagree anyway" on me.
Afair there's some interest in proving Soviet guilt instead of finding the truth for those still digging, no? :)

This how history is probably crated in Kremlin. I would never think that way, you suggested. Many of witness reports were made after the war but were dispersed in many archives in Poland and abroad.


shadowsrider seemed pretty confident though when he said it's a well documented thing - so maybe there are already good sources there from a time more closer to the actual events?

Because it is but yesterday was an occasion for some leakages.. :)