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hulaku
09-20-2009, 03:15 AM
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Despite growing U.S. military losses in Afghanistan, Pakistan still refuses to target the extremist groups on its soil that are the biggest threat to the American-led mission there, the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan told McClatchy.

Eight years after Washington and Islamabad agreed to fight the Taliban and al Qaida, Pakistan has "different priorities" from the U.S., Anne Patterson said in a recent interview. Pakistan is "certainly reluctant to take action" against the leadership of the Afghan insurgency.

As the war in Afghanistan becomes more brutal — and political and popular support for it wanes in the U.S. — Pakistan's refusal to act in support of American goals is undermining the U.S. effort to deny al Qaida and other extremist groups a sanctuary in Afghanistan.

The most effective Taliban fighters, the Haqqani network of veteran Afghan jihadist Jalaluddin Haqqani and his son Sirajuddin, operate out of the North Waziristan region of Pakistan's tribal territory. Taliban founder Mullah Mohammad Omar is widely thought to be based in the western Pakistani city of Quetta, from which he directs the insurgency through the so-called "Quetta Shura," or leadership council.

Experts on the Afghanistan war think that military progress and political stability won't be possible there unless the government roots out the havens the insurgents have established in western Pakistan. The International Institute for Strategic Studies, a London-based research center, concluded in its annual review this week that "Pakistan remained the biggest source of instability for Afghanistan."

Pakistani officials, however, say that their country's priority should be to tackle Islamic militants who threaten Pakistan. They charge that the U.S. is blind to Pakistan's concerns over traditional foe India as it presses Pakistan to redeploy forces from its eastern border with India to the western border with Afghanistan.

The disagreement between Washington and Islamabad was illustrated starkly this week when former President Pervez Musharraf acknowledged in a television interview that he'd diverted American military equipment that was meant to fight the Taliban in western Pakistan for use against India. "One doesn't care who one crosses," Musharraf told Pakistan's Express News.

In testimony Tuesday before Congress, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Michael Mullen, said: "The Pakistani military ... consider their principal threat — their existential threat — to be Indian, not these extremists."

The U.S. has lavished praise on the Pakistani army for the offensive it launched in April against Taliban militants in Pakistan. The operation marked the first serious sign of determination to deal with armed extremists, but it hasn't extended to groups in Pakistan that fight exclusively in Afghanistan. Mullen said that Pakistan's recent anti-terrorism actions "had a big impact" although "it hasn't been perfect."

While Pakistan and the U.S. agree on targeting al Qaida and, more recently, the Taliban Movement of Pakistan ("Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan"), they strongly disagree over action against Afghan insurgents operating from Pakistani territory.

"Where we differ, of course, is the treatment of the groups who are attacking our troops in Afghanistan. And that comes down to Haqqani and Gul Bahadur and Nazir, to a lesser extent Hekmatyar, and yes, of course, there are differences there," Patterson said, naming some of the most prominent extremist leaders. "We have a very candid dialogue about this with some frequency."

Bahadur, based in North Waziristan, and Maulvi Nazir, based in South Waziristan, are Pakistani Taliban commanders who fight only in Afghanistan. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, an old-time Afghan militant commander, is based near the Pakistani border.

"In my view the Pakistanis don't have the capacity to go after some of these groups. Some they do, let me stress, but say Siraj Haqqani holds territory, huge swaths of territory in North Waziristan, where he's been implanted for years," Patterson said.

"My own view is that the Haqqani group is the biggest threat (in Afghanistan). The Quetta Shura, yes, is sort of a command and control. They move in and out of Afghanistan. But the Haqqani group has ... shown the ability to reach all the way to Kabul with these huge attacks, which not only kill loads of people but are also politically destabilizing."

Nevertheless, Patterson said that Pakistan had "taken more action against some of these groups than most people are aware of."

Until 2001, Pakistan openly supported the Taliban in Afghanistan, which in turn hosted al Qaida's leadership. Pakistan officially abandoned the Taliban, under enormous American pressure, after the 9-11 attacks. However, many Western military officers think that the Pakistani military, which remains in charge of Afghanistan policy, continues to view Mullah Omar and Haqqani as "assets," an insurance policy it might have to rely on if the U.S. pulls out of Afghanistan and the Taliban return to power. Haqqani has been close to Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence military spy agency since the 1980s.

Pakistan also has grievances against the U.S. Last year, Washington signed a civil nuclear cooperation deal with India, but not with Pakistan. India also has played a significant role in Afghanistan — with an aid program worth more than $1 billion, including road-building and education assistance — which has raised suspicions in Pakistan.

"We consider India as a threat to our security; the Americans don't," said a senior official in the Pakistani administration, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

He added: "We can't go after everyone at the same time — that would destabilize our own country — but we will do it."

Pakistan says that the U.S. has failed to provide it with the right military hardware for the anti-terror fight. Islamabad also thinks that international forces in Afghanistan haven't been effective in sealing their side of the largely unmarked, porous border, so Afghan extremists infiltrate Pakistan and fight the Pakistani army in the tribal area, especially the Bajaur region.

"We have complained and informed them (NATO) that the strength they have on their side of the border (in Afghanistan) is not even a tenth of what we have on our side," said Pakistan's chief military spokesman, Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, who added that "obviously the threat (in Pakistan) that's more significant will be taken care of first," without specifying what it is.

Underlying Pakistan's concerns in Afghanistan is the grave doubt that top Pakistani military and civilian officials harbor — which Mullen acknowledged in his testimony — about the U.S. commitment to Afghanistan, amid growing public opposition to the war there.

"What happens if America leaves? What would Pakistan's situation be the day after?" said Hasan Askari Rizvi, an analyst based in Lahore. "If we pick a fight with every group in the tribal area and Afghanistan, after the Americans leave, everybody would pounce on Pakistan."

The risk is of a self-fulfilling prophecy: that Pakistan's inaction, based on its distrust of American motives, helps lead to the very situation the country says it wants to avoid. If the Taliban retake Afghanistan, Mullen said in his testimony, "the internal threat to Pakistan by extremism will only worsen."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/world/story/75690.html

MG 3
09-20-2009, 05:49 AM
Its getting a bit old now......

hulaku
09-20-2009, 06:31 AM
Its getting a bit old now......

But still as relevant.

tyovan
09-20-2009, 07:40 AM
Pakistan's double-crossing is indeed getting old.

AL-Khalid
09-20-2009, 07:54 AM
Same old news "Do more"

RAJPUT
09-20-2009, 10:39 AM
Pakistan strategy is to act (so that the aid continues to flow in) the but minimise the consequnces(so they can use these assets later on) and to robust its military infrastructure against india

MG 3
09-21-2009, 08:57 AM
But still as relevant.

Irrelevant! We no longer care what Anne says......... McCrystal and Patraeus are on the same page with us. Her rants are politically motivated so ........


Pakistan strategy is to act (so that the aid continues to flow in) the but minimise the consequnces(so they can use these assets later on) and to robust its military infrastructure against india

Hmmmm..... You lot slow or something? Obviously if they give us AH-1s than we will use them in a conflict against India. You really think we'll just shut down our new communication/intel equipment just because the fighting is at the eastern border?

hulaku
09-21-2009, 09:08 AM
Irrelevant! We no longer care what Anne says......... McCrystal and Patraeus are on the same page with us. Her rants are politically motivated so ........

The article is not about what Anne says. Its about the reluctance of certain radical elements in the good old ISI and the Pakistani Army to go against the Haqqani father-son duo as well as Mullah Omar's Quetta Shura, looking at them as future assets when the American and NATO forces withdraw as well as their Islamic brethren. This double game has gone on for a very long time and its only now that most Western observers are seeing through this smokescreen.

MG 3
09-21-2009, 09:47 AM
The article is not about what Anne says. Its about the reluctance of certain radical elements in the good old ISI and the Pakistani Army to go against the Haqqani father-son duo as well as Mullah Omar's Quetta Shura, looking at them as future assets when the American and NATO forces withdraw as well as their Islamic brethren. This double game has gone on for a very long time and its only now that most Western observers are seeing through this smokescreen.

Gibrish! It isnt related to any of what you said. Its pressure for certain things that are happening behind the curtain. She had to pay a steep price for this rant.....

hulaku
09-21-2009, 09:56 AM
Gibrish! It isnt related to any of what you said. Its pressure for certain things that are happening behind the curtain. She had to pay a steep price for this rant.....

I assume you did not read the full article posted. Just quoting a part of it for you


Until 2001, Pakistan openly supported the Taliban in Afghanistan, which in turn hosted al Qaida's leadership. Pakistan officially abandoned the Taliban, under enormous American pressure, after the 9-11 attacks. However, many Western military officers think that the Pakistani military, which remains in charge of Afghanistan policy, continues to view Mullah Omar and Haqqani as "assets," an insurance policy it might have to rely on if the U.S. pulls out of Afghanistan and the Taliban return to power. Haqqani has been close to Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence military spy agency since the 1980s.

As I said it is not about the messenger but the message that has to be given importance. And being the US Ambassador to Pakistan I assume she has an understanding how things work in Pakistan. What you refer to as a 'rant' is actually the bitter truth which the world has begun to realize. There is no denying the truth that came out of Anne Patterson's mouth. A courageous lady I must add, calling a spade a spade.

MG 3
09-21-2009, 10:06 AM
I assume you did not read the full article posted. Just quoting a part of it for you

As I said it is not about the messenger but the message that has to be given importance. And being the US Ambassador to Pakistan I assume she has an understanding how things work in Pakistan. What you refer to as a 'rant' is actually the bitter truth which the world has begun to realize. There is no denying the truth that came out of Anne Patterson's mouth. A courageous lady I must add, calling a spade a spade.

Courageous my ass. The guys at Inter-Risk and their "training friends" are locked up and her rants aint gonna put any pressure. Next time she speaks you'll see a few deportations take place.

MG 3
09-21-2009, 10:07 AM
actually the bitter truth which the world has begun to realize

BTW the world had realized it and has gotten over it.

pg_ord
09-21-2009, 10:08 AM
Anything not agreeable is passed off as rant? This obfuscation between different Taliban groups must end...I do agree that there is nothing new in the news ..... Pakistan has been fudging facts since time immemorial.

hulaku
09-21-2009, 10:44 AM
Courageous my ass. The guys at Inter-Risk and their "training friends" are locked up and her rants aint gonna put any pressure. Next time she speaks you'll see a few deportations take place.
For you the US Ambassador to Pakistan carries no credibility. The country which provides the largess on which Pakistan survives. Ungrateful, anybody. Deporting the American Ambassador. Come on gimme a break.

And do you really believe in the '1000 US Marines have landed in Pakistan' BS.


BTW the world had realized it and has gotten over it.
Denial is not the name of a river in Egypt.

pg_ord
09-21-2009, 11:05 AM
For you the US Ambassador to Pakistan carries no credibility. The country which provides the largess on which Pakistan survives. Ungrateful, anybody. Deporting the American Ambassador. Come on gimme a break.

And do you really believe in the '1000 US Marines have landed in Pakistan' BS.


Denial is not the name of a river in Egypt.
US Ambassador carries credibility only when Pakistanis ask for baksheesh. p-)

hulaku
09-22-2009, 02:30 AM
Some interesting points from Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal's assessment of the war in Afghanistan.


COMISAF Initial Assessment (Unclassified) -- Searchable Document
Monday, September 21, 2009; 12:30 AM

The Department of Defense on Sunday evening released a declassified version of Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal's assessment of the war in Afghanistan. The Post agreed to publish this version, which includes minor deletions of material that officials said could compromise future operations, rather than a copy of the document marked "confidential."


The major insurgent groups in order of their threat to the mission are: the Quetta Shura Taliban (05T), the Haqqani Network (HQN), and the Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin (HiG). These groups coordinate activities loosely, often achieving significant unity of purpose and even some unity of effort, but they do not share a formal command-and-control structure. They also do not have a single overarching strategy or campaign plan. Each individual group, however, has a specific strategy, develops annual plans, and allocates resources accordingly. Each group has its own methods of developing and executing these plans and each has adapted over time. Despite the best efforts of GIRoA and ISAF, the insurgents currently have the initiative.


All three insurgent groups require resources - mainly money and manpower. The O5T derives funding from the narcotics trade and external donors. HQN similarly draws resources principally from Pakistan, Gulf Arab networks, and from its close association with al Qaeda and other Pakistan-based insurgent groups. HiG seeks control of mineral wealth and smuggling routes in the east.


Pakistan. Afghanistan's insurgency is clearly supported from Pakistan. Senior leaders of the major Afghan insurgent groups are based in Pakistan, are linked with al Qaeda and other violent extremist groups, and are reportedly aided by some elements of Pakistan's lSI. AI Qaeda and associated movements (AQAM) based in Pakistan channel foreign fighters, suicide bombers, and technical assistance into Afghanistan, and offer ideological motivation, training, and financial support. AI Qaeda's links with HUN have grown, suggesting that expanded HQN control could create a favorable environment for AQAM to re-establish safe-havens in Afghanistan. Additionally, the ISAF mission in Afghanistan is reliant on ground supply routes through Pakistan that remain vulnerable to these threats.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/21/AR2009092100110.html?hpid=topnews

transoxiana
09-22-2009, 02:35 AM
While it is theoretically neat and cosmetically nice to advance the view point that the USA should withdraw from Afghanistan. The idea is far complicated at the strategic and operational level.

While it is true that the Pakistan and US sponsored so called Mujahideen did not follow the USSR into Russia,their
successors the Taliban were allied with parties with a Pan Islamist outlook. Parties which wanted to carry Jihad into Europe,America and Africa.

The USSR withdrawal from Afghanistan was not a military defeat but a political act of withdrawal covered by the creation of the Northern Alliance which was half leftist and pro Russian. The fact of the matter remains that USSR withdrawal was fallaciously interpreted as a great victory of Islam, while actually it was not so. This interpretation led to creation of many dreams of glory and carrying on of the Islamic Jihad into India, Bosnia, Chechniya etc.

Any US withdrawal from Afghanistan would create another delusion. A false conclusion that Islam has won and USA lost. It would boost morale in the Islamists and would lead to far greater chaos and confusion than ever witnessed before in modern history.

In brief the implications of a US withdrawal would be :--

1-Collapse of the moderate Afghan regime created after billions of dollars of US and European/G 8 aid within a matter of months.

2-Creation of an unemployed and uncommitted reserve of Islamic extremists who are well trained in military art and would represent a greater threat to the Pakistani state as it presently exists and to all neighbours of Afghanistan.

3-A renewed civil war in Afghanistan with Taliban backed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and the Northern Alliance backed by Russia, Iran, Central Asian Republics and possibly USA and China.

The key to the Afghan disorder lies in Afghanistans neighbours and not in Afghanistan itself :--

1-Pakistan and Saudi Arabian states regard Afghanistan as a battle ground in between an Iran/Indian/Russian backed Northern Alliance and a Sunni puritan Talibans.

2-Russia ,India,Central Asian Republics and G 8 in general regard Taliban as a threat to their countries and to the region.

A possible solution may be in the following :--

1-Continued US presence retaining key military bases in North Afghanistan and in Baloch majority Nimroz as sword of Damocles for the Taliban. Withdrawal of US forces from South Afghanistan while retaining the Kabul Torkham Corridor which is safe in any case.

2-Integrating Russia,India and Pakistan in a regional solution while creating an Independent North Afghanistan which is Non Pashtun majority, South Afghanistan which is Pashtun majority, and a Baloch Autonomous Region in the south west Afghanistan.

3-Initiation of dialogue with the Taliban offering them South Afghanistan while withdrawing US/NATO forces north of the line Dilaram-Uruzgan-Ghazni-Paktiya-Paktika while retaining Baloch majority Nimroz.

Nothing in history is inevitable.Afghanistan was a province of Mughal,Saffavid and the Bokharan Uzbeks till 1747.It was controlled by a subsidy of 13 lakh per month by British from 1857 to 1919 and it was a neutral country with no threat to world peace from 1919 to 1978.

It is a misconception that Taliban control 90 % of Afghanistan or all population of Afghanistan is with Taliban unless you believe the Pakistani or Saudi establishment.The Saudi establishment fears the Shias and Iran far more than USA or Israel. Thus the deep Saudi interest in a Taliban dominated Afghanistan.

The fact is that Taliban control some 50 % of Afghanistan while some 60 % of Afghanistans population is against them.

If the USA withdraws what will happen to the 60 % who are against the Taliban ? These include Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmens, Hazaras and many educated Pashtuns .This would be a great political and strategic failure of USA and NATO ? The main winners in this case would be Russia,India and Iran in Afghamistans north and Pakistans generals and Saudis in the south.

A solution of Afghan war must be based on a combination of B-52 bombers, US Dollars, Divide and Rule and regional guarantees.

hulaku
09-22-2009, 02:48 AM
^^ A good view point on Afghanistan, Major saab.

transoxiana
09-22-2009, 03:34 AM
thanks my dear halaku

pg_ord
09-22-2009, 09:50 PM
Indian Minister Urges Afghan Political Settlement (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125364105273431343.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

NEW YORK -- India, one of the biggest investors in Afghanistan, believes there is no military solution to the conflict in that country and that NATO combat operations should give way to a political settlement with the Taliban, according to Indian Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna.

"India doesn't believe that war can solve any problem, and that applies to Afghanistan, also," Mr. Krishna said in an interview on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York. "I think there could be a political settlement. I think we should strive toward that."

India has fought three wars against Pakistan and one against China since its independence in 1947. But Mr. Krishna, in the interview, questioned the efficacy of military action. "If there are internal differences within Afghanistan I think the people of Afghanistan, the leaders of Afghanistan, will sort it out by themselves," he said.

India is heavily invested in Afghanistan, particularly infrastructure projects such as roads, hospitals, schools and the new parliament building in Kabul. In all, Indian reconstruction aid totals $1.2 billion. Mr. Krishna said the investment was worth the risk despite the continued conflict.

He played down the findings of electoral fraud, noting the U.S. election fracas in Florida in 2000, saying, "It happens in every election, [that results are] questioned."

hulaku
09-27-2009, 01:04 AM
Pakistan's army and its intelligence service, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), have long been accused of supporting armed groups fighting in Afghanistan.

But the latest warning has come from no less than the US forces' commander in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal.

In a report submitted to the Obama administration recently, he says "Afghanistan's insurgency is clearly supported from Pakistan".
McChrystal identifies the Shura Council of the Taliban in Quetta, in southwest Pakistan, led by Mullah Omar, as the biggest force fighting the Nato-led troops in Afghanistan.


Then there is the Haqqani network - run by Jalaluddin Haqqani - which is believed to have close ties to al-Qaeda and which uses North Waziristan as its main base.


McChrystal says its funding comes from Pakistan and Gulf Arab networks.
Finally, his report says, there is the Hezbi-I-Islam, run by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a veteran guerrilla from the Soviet war in the 1980s.


'Triangle of terror'

Many Afghan officials agree with McChrystal's assessment.


In an interview to Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr, Daoud Muradian, a senior adviser at the Afghan foreign ministry, said the main factor in the Taliban's resurgence is the support it enjoys from Pakistan's intelligence services.

"What we face in Afghanistan is a triangle of terror - it comprises Taliban, al-Qaeda and the ISI of Pakistan," he said.

"Pakistan uses the Taliban as a leverage against us, against India and also as a leverage against the international community - to blackmail them. What we are facing in Afghanistan is state-sponsored terrorism."

But Imtiaz Gul, a Pakistani expert on politics and security in the tribal regions, dismissed the Afghan authorities' allegations of a Pakistani connection as out of date.

"This was true some time ago, but I am not sure you can lump the ISI with the insurgency given their co-operation with the US military," he said, speaking to Al Jazeera from Islamabad.

"If you went through the statement by General McChrystal two days ago, he spoke about the increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan. This is the first official expression of concern on the Indian involvement inside Afghanistan."
He said that "if Afghanistan remains destabilised ... we cannot have a stabilised Pakistan".

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/09/2009926101231313412.html

MG 3
09-28-2009, 01:51 PM
Hmmm! This is an interesting development. Well the intel about McChrystal's claims is sketchy at best and its something that only the US military intelligence seems to know about cause the drone operators the CIA have made it clear that Quetta is of no interest to them and the ISI has also been unable to locate the "Ashura" that McChrys is onn about.
This will get ugly.

SilentType
09-28-2009, 01:58 PM
We need full access into Pakistan for ISAF forces.

Until that happens there will be no real solution to the terrorist threats or the insurgency in Afghanistan. That simple. How many more attacks need to happen or terrorists need to be arrested that all originated out of Pakistan before NATO wakes up?

I'm not saying there wouldn't be risks and challenges, but it's either takes those risks or accept others to your citizens at home.

hulaku
09-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Hmmm! This is an interesting development. Well the intel about McChrystal's claims is sketchy at best and its something that only the US military intelligence seems to know about cause the drone operators the CIA have made it clear that Quetta is of no interest to them and the ISI has also been unable to locate the "Ashura" that McChrys is onn about.
This will get ugly.

By Ashura I assume that you mean the Quetta Shura.

What in your view would be Pakistan's reaction in case the CIA starts hitting targets in Quetta/ Baluchistan?

And I agree with you that it will get ugly.

MG 3
09-28-2009, 02:11 PM
By Ashura I assume that you mean the Quetta Shura.

What in your view would be Pakistan's reaction in case the CIA starts hitting targets in Quetta/ Baluchistan?

And I agree with you that it will get ugly.

There are different names for it but for the Taliban its the southern and western command.

The CIA will not hit Quetta or Baluchistan but that does no mean that there will be no attack from the US. Get my drift....

Oh no.... The last time this happened no one died and only a CH47 was damaged. Now the terrain and distances will be different so hurt will be in good supply.

hulaku
09-28-2009, 02:17 PM
Im just curious to know what kind of a relationship do the Taliban in Baluchistan have with the Baloch insurgents?

MG 3
09-28-2009, 02:23 PM
Im just curious to know what kind of a relationship do the Taliban in Baluchistan have with the Baloch insurgents?

They dont get along as the Taliban there are Phatan while the BLA folk are either Bugti or Marri plus they are pretty weak on Islam, as most of their leaders have been heretics but thats a general theme followed by most "waderas and nawabs" of this belt that stretches from Lahore to Eastern Sindh.

pg_ord
09-28-2009, 02:48 PM
Read a couple of baloch separatist leaders supporting pashtuns who wanted a separate Pakhtoonkwa.

MG 3
10-02-2009, 06:25 AM
Read a couple of baloch separatist leaders supporting pashtuns who wanted a separate Pakhtoonkwa.

Taliban are anti Pakhtoonkwa..... Taliban are pro-unity. according to them all land from East Timor to Dakar is a single emirate.