Pentagon: Bush military record 'has been destroyed'

[J-10]

Bush military record 'has been destroyed'
By David Usborne in New York
10 July 2004

Records that could have helped clarify whether President George Bush fulfilled his Air National Guard duties in Alabama during the Vietnam War, as he has insisted, were inadvertently destroyed several years ago, the Pentagon has conceded.

Defence officials say that payroll information relating not only to President Bush but to dozens of others serving in the Guard at that time were ruined in 1996 and 1997 during attempts to salvage deteriorating microfiche film.

"The Defence Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS) has advised of the inadvertent destruction of microfilm containing certain National Guard payroll records," confirmed C Y Talbott, chief of the Pentagon's freedom of information department, who was responding to requests for access to the records from The New York Times, the Associated Press and other news organisations.

The Pentagon said there were no paper records to back up the information contained on the microfilm.The records were destroyed when staff tried to unspool 2,000ft rolls of the film.

"Those are records we've all been interested in," said James Moore, whose recent book, Bush's War for Re-election, examines the issue. "I think it's curious that the microfiche could resolve what days Mr Bush worked and what days he was paid, and suddenly that is gone."

Mr Bush served in the Texas Air National Guard from 1967 to 1973, mostly as a pilot, but never served in Vietnam. According to the President's version, he moved to Alabama in May 1972 to work on a political campaign and to carry out Guard duty there for one year. His story began to attract attention, however, when other officers from the period said they could not remember seeing him.

The issue is especially sensitive in a campaign where Mr Bush finds himself pitted against John Kerry, a bona fide hero of the Vietnam War era. Mr Kerry has kept a low profile in the controversy.
independent (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=539791)

[Pille1234]

oh what an accident. Well, there's still his dentist file right? rofl rofl

[Deuterium]

This is all payback from the Vince Foster and Filegate episodes the Republicans put the Clintons through. ****!! what were we thinking.

[Romulus]

YAWN............

[moughoun]

YAWN............

AWWW, Romulus is sleepy shushhh everyone, night night p-)

[usa320]

People make it sound like it was his fault his unit didnt go to vietnam...

Hell sending F-102's to Vietnam would have been utterly useless.

[moughoun]

People make it sound like it was his fault his unit didnt go to vietnam...

Hell sending F-102's to Vietnam would have been utterly useless.

Let's be honest now, sending George to Vietnam would have been useless ;)

[Romulus]

AWWW, Romulus is sleepy shushhh everyone, night night
p-)

[scm77]

Oh my god! Bush may not have fulfilled his NG service 30 years ago. That clearly makes him unfit to be president. I'm surprised he doesn't just resign. :roll: :roll:

[seruriermarshal]

a bona fide hero of the Vietnam War era

rofl

An anti - war hero ?

[budanski]

...John Kerry, a bona fide hero of the Vietnam War era.
A war hero who admittedly committed war crimes (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Documents). :roll:

Bush Sr. and Bob Dole both served in WW2 yet never made it their main selling point in their bid for presidency. Although both may not have collected as much metals (in Kerry's case, ribbons...) as Kerry, both lasted longer than 4 months.

[chauncy republicans]

Yes...but I'm sure Kerry wont apoint draft-dodgers to key positions within the pentagon. I'm also pretty sure he wont apoint a cold war expert to national securiy adviser either. Funny even Clinton had enough common sence not to do that. :roll:

[moughoun]

...John Kerry, a bona fide hero of the Vietnam War era.
A war hero who admittedly committed war crimes (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Documents). :roll:

Bush Sr. and Bob Dole both served in WW2 yet never made it their main selling point in their bid for presidency. Although both may not have collected as much metals (in Kerry's case, ribbons...) as Kerry, both lasted longer than 4 months.

I don't think anyone doubt's Bush 41 or Bob Dole,s war record, although you have to wonder what would have happened if John Mcain was pres right now

[szr]

People make it sound like it was his fault his unit didnt go to vietnam...

Hell sending F-102's to Vietnam would have been utterly useless.

Point is if you actually wanted to fight in 'Nam, ANG was not the first place you looked to sign up.

[Pooga]

Hell sending F-102's to Vietnam would have been utterly useless.

About as useful as sending Thuds. :(

[Cactuar]

George Bush was protecting American shores from the Vietcong.

[Romulus]

Point is if you actually wanted to fight in 'Nam, ANG was not the first place you looked to sign up.

Neither was Canada or England.. *cough* *Clinton* *Cough*

[Pooga]

Point is if you actually wanted to fight in 'Nam, ANG was not the first place you looked to sign up.

Who wanted to fight (Well, ok, fine, the volunteers, smart arses )? ;)

[szr]

Point is if you actually wanted to fight in 'Nam, ANG was not the first place you looked to sign up.

Neither was Canada or England.. *cough* *Clinton* *Cough*
Nobody ever said Clinton was a war hero.
There are rightwingers who will tell you Bush is a war hero, for his ANG service. I've even seen him called a decorated war hero on this very forum.

[Romulus]

I've even seen him called a decorated war hero on this very forum.

Where?

[Tane Angle]

Good point, Pooga, I don't know if too many people really wanted to be there. :|

President Clinton isn't running for President, so he's a moot point.

Of course, I did not find the carrier landing to be one of President Bush's most honorable moments. I don't agree with civilian leaders acting like military personnel or putting themselves at undue risk. He doesn't own his body, it's a piece of US Goverment Issue property and he didn't have a right to make a carrier landing, which, with all due respect for the pilot, was an unnecessary risk. I also do not agree with civilian leaders wearing military uniforms; yes, he was once in the ANG, but upon running for civilian office he forfeighted his right to wear a military uniform. No US President, to my knowledge, has donned a military uniform in connection with the office of the Presidency, not George Washington, not Dwight Eisenhower, not Zachary Taylor, not John F Kennedy, not Teddy Roosevelt, not Abraham Lincoln (who did serve in the US Army), not any of them. It's just not an American thing to do.

In short, civilian leaders must take steps to clarify that they are indeed civilians. Want to wear a uniform? Join the Girl Scouts. In the US, civilian leaders stick to suits. Want to do be a "civilian leader" but still wear a uniform? Go to Cuba. Stalin, Hitler, Casto, Saddam Hussein, Amin, and many other dictators have been fond of running nations while wearing uniforms. Let's keep it American, right?

Senator Kerry...there's no real definition of what a hero is. I don't know if he is one. He was there, so I give him credit for that. If he did commit war crimes, well, I certainly don't give him respect for them then. I'm far from a Kerry supporter. More like a political brat who's yet to be content. ;)

Good post, budanski. To be honest, while I would probably very much appreciate a president who would be concious of the horrors of war and would give US servicemembers the things they need to do their jobs as well as possible, I don't care what they did 30 years ago so much as what they've done in the past few years, and what they're going to do in the next few years. Having said that, I'm trying to think when the last time I voted for an incumbent President was.

usa320, the issue isn't necessarily what unit he was with so much as was he ever actually with that unit.

seruriermarshal, there's nothing wrong with being anti-war, is there? I certainly am not a big fan of war, and I certainly didn't agree with some of the conflicts I have been involved in. But let's face it, I wasn't doing any of it for some politician back home, I was doing it for my men and women, among other reasons. So I made my recommendations for policy changes when appropriate, but otherwise just focused on keeping my people alive and well.

In regards to the destroyed documents...if neither side can prove that he was there or wasn't there through documentation, it would seem that it falls to the people who were there to confirm or deny the future-President Bush's prescence. So far, most of them have said they don't remember him being there. So it's possible that there is something more there, that the files were destroyed on purpose; it is also possible that it was a pure accident. If the documents revealed something against President Bush's statements, it might have made more sense to fake documents than to simply say "there are none whatsoever." So I don't know about any intents to cover anything up.

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[szr]

I've even seen him called a decorated war hero on this very forum.

Where?
It was in one of those threads that degenerated into 'Kerry is a treasonist for throwing away his medals' things that were popular a few months ago. Feel free to fire-up the old search engine and post it if you can find it.

[KB]

I'd say George Bush was very effective and served his state well in the Texas National Guard; while he was a member not a single enemy aircraft penetrated Texas airspace.

He's just a rich draft dodger. I can't believe he had the guts to prance around a flight deck in a military flight suit next to men who'd put it all on the line flying through AAA over Iraq and Afghanistan.

[budanski]

I'd say George Bush was very effective and served his state well in the Texas National Guard; while he was a member not a single enemy aircraft penetrated Texas airspace.

He's just a rich draft dodger. I can't believe he had the guts to prance around a flight deck in a military flight suit next to men who'd put it all on the line flying through AAA over Iraq and Afghanistan.
Your logic: Texas National Guard = draft dodger

Would you consider the National Guardsmen serving in Iraq as we speak draft dodgers as well? :roll:

Speaking of draft dodgers... Unlike Bush who enlisted to National Guardsman duties, Kerry was drafted. He had asked his draftboard in 1968 to let him study in Paris for a year so he could avoid having to go to Vietnam. After the draftboard denied him his request he enlisted in the Navy and the rest is history.

If all you can throw at Bush for his service by labeling him as a "draft-dodger", it sure beats being a traitor (http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=2004060123330738). ;)

US Code

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 45 > Sec. 953.

Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply, himself or his agent, to any foreign government or the agents thereof for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects

source (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/953.html)

[Tane Angle]

So we agree about the carrier landing at least, or no?

[obd]

George Bush did the right thing: He recognized how cowardly and stupid he was so he joined a special NG unit with other politically upward bound kids and flew delta darts a few times for photo ops so he could later brag about showing up a few days for service and show everybody a cute little picture of him posing in front of a jet aircraft he probably could barely keep in the air..........(I wonder if he actually flew the thing more than ounce and if he actually participated in any dangerous training ops.....

nah, he was too busy "drankin" and "whorin".......oh yeah, and we cant forget "prayin" and "preeechin" and "huntin armadillas" and "meetin with them Sau.....Sau.....Sad....Saudi Rabians peoples about them oil deals he was wantin to get a goin and all them "enitiatives" he was workin on with those people he cant remmember but it was this lady oftentimes he was intitiatin with all day.......der..........oh yeah.....and them Rabian folks a helped him out somethin awful so he gave 'em a 7% ownership of "A-Merica" an all that........and they paid for his campaign and bailed out his failing buisnesses somethin fierce like.....so he guesses he owe them more than he owe the A-Merican peoples dont he.....well unless thier the haves and the have mores......or as he like to call them his base....

And on top of all that, Bush kept himself away from Vietnam where he probably would have gotten several of his fellow Americans killed by bombing the chow line or flying into a barracks while "skimmin them strange Asia tree's for those pesky vietnamese Armadillas he's always lookin and hollerin fer".........

Dont know about you, but I wouldnt trust Bush Jr. with changing a jeeps tire much less with combat operations.....The man cant even speak English properly, he cant drive properly, and he cant lead the country properly......anybody trust him with dropping a dumb bomb on enemy targets within ten miles of your posiition?? Not me!!! I'd rather have a monkey doing it = the monkey might not hit Charlie but I'd feel alot safer about the monkey not hitting me than Bush Jr. not hitting me!!!!!

dumb person dropping dumb bomb = some poor dumb **** getting blasted all to hell...........

[budanski]

So we agree about the carrier landing at least, or no?
Depends on who you ask...

Senator Byrd,

As a retired Naval Officer, with two Gulf carrier deployments under my belt, I find your criticism of President Bush's visit to the Lincoln offensive in the extreme! This is the first time that the Commander-in-Chief took time out of his schedule to pay a visit to thank those who served in the line of fire, in a way that was both dramatic and meaningful to those on the carrier.

Perhaps if LBJ got off his fat ass to do something similar, our troops' morale in Vietnam might not have been so low.

As a Naval officer, I am extremely sensitive to styles of leadership.

That is, after all, our stock in trade. And it was not lost on me that the President spent about thirty seconds shaking hands with the Admiral, CO, and CAG (If you don't know these abbreviations just look them up in your Funk &Wagnalls!) He then spent the next forty-five minutes putting himself at the disposal of the people who make that ship work, the yellow shirts, the green shirts, thepurple shirts, the chiefs, the sailors.

If you don't know the significance of those colored shirts, look it up in your Blue Jacket's Manual. Not dressed out in formal uniform (I understand at Bush's request), but in their greasy, smelly, sweaty working uniforms ... working a flight deck is hot, hard work. And yet he, in his flight suit, put himself at their disposal, this was their moment for 19 or 20 something year old kids a few years out of high school, to get a picture of themselves with the President of the United States, his arm draped around their shoulder.

That is a moment that those kids never dreamed would ever happen to them, maybe not even when they knew he was coming aboard. Surely, he would see the brass, not the troops. But it was the troops to whom he gave his time ... and it was the most natural moment in the world. You might have thought it was a family reunion, and in a way, it was...

Bush is one of them, the common man, and while he is still the most powerful man on the planet right now. He hasn't lost his touch for them.

Was it a political moment?

What moment of a president's life is NOT a political moment? Was it grand standing, to come in to an OK pass to a 4 wire, a bit high in close, correcting, left of centerline? Well, hell, he didn't fly the approach anyway, though I understand from the pilots who flew him that he did a pretty good job at formation flying, tucked in close for a lead change. You can always tell a fighter pilot, you just can't tell him very much. And, apparently after thirty years, it all comes back, with a little coaching, I am sure. Frankly, I would have liked to see him come aboard in an FA-18, but the Secret Service vetoed that, and Bush accepted their judgment ... again, a mark of a good leader.

If you had spent some time in the service, instead of the Klan, you might understand the significance of that moment to all the men and women aboard the Lincoln, and indeed to all the men and women in the service who shared that moment vicariously. But you chose the bedsheet instead of the uniform, and so you don't.

I am half-tempted to move to West Virginia just so I could vote against you in your next election.

Lewis F. McIntyre CDR, USN (Ret)

Source (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=12177)
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/toons/varvel/varvel050903.jpg

Being an ex-fighter pilot, it was fitting for Bush to be in a flight suit during a carrier landing. I guess Clinton protesting the Vietnam War by taking off to Canada earned him a RC-7B CRAZY HAWK flight jacket. ;)

http://img40.exs.cx/img40/9244/clinton.jpg


dumb person dropping dumb bomb = some poor dumb **** getting blasted all to hell...........
Yep Bush proved he's not too bright.

Joining the ANG, and becoming a fighter pilot during wartime isn't a real smart way to avoid the draft.

I wonder if the NG pilots sent to fight in Nam were draft dogers too? Should I remind you to look at the stellar combat record of Indiana's Delta Rangers, for example?

This action by Bush is as stupid as Dan Quayle joining a NG Ranger BN, (during war time,) in order to avoid the draft.

The F-102 was a particularly demanding beast--it didn't tolerate pilot error or its own failings. I doubt Bush's superiors at the time were unaware of this...

Being a fighter pilot -- for that matter, simply taking off in a single-engine jet fighter of the Century series, such as an F-102, or any of the military's other marvelous bricks with fins on them -- presented a man, on a perfectly sunny day, with more ways to get himself killed than his wife and children could imagine in their wildest fears.

-- Tom Wolfe, The Right Stuff.
You've now caught on to the concept of paragraphs, next lesson: logic.

[KB]

"Speaking of draft dodgers... Unlike Bush who enlisted to National Guardsman duties, Kerry was drafted. He had asked his draftboard in 1968 to let him study in Paris for a year so he could avoid having to go to Vietnam. After the draftboard denied him his request he enlisted in the Navy and the rest is history."

Joining the Reserves and NG/ANG in 1968 was the privileged class' way of getting out of service in SE Asia. Bush got jumped ahead of a couple hundred others to get in. So as far as I am concerned, Bush is a draft dodger.

The situation between the Guard of the '60s and the Guard today is very different; the reason is because Creighton Abrams and the Service Chiefs of the early '70s re-designed the force structure to ensure that should a sustained armed conflict occur elected leadership would be forced to mobilize the Guard/Reserve components and be less able to hide the true impact of the war's impact (as Johnson tried to do) and remove the "safe haven" the Guard became in in the 1960s for those who didn't want to be inconvenienced with serving in SE Asia.

Also, if Kerry was as "liberal elite" as rumored, he certainly could have made his Navy service easier, pulled some strings and gotten a job counting sheets on a oiler in the Med. Nope, he saw service as a surface line officer off the coast of Viet Nam. In fact, that wasn't challenging enough, so Kerry volunteered to serve on a Swift Boat...and in 5 months won a Silver Star and 2 Bronze Stars. His crew (with the exception of 1 guy), campaigns with him, as does the former SF officer he pulled out of the river under enemy fire. I don't care for some of his actions to protest the war, but he earned the right. He faced the ultimate test - leadership in combat- and passed.

[budanski]

"Speaking of draft dodgers... Unlike Bush who enlisted to National Guardsman duties, Kerry was drafted. He had asked his draftboard in 1968 to let him study in Paris for a year so he could avoid having to go to Vietnam. After the draftboard denied him his request he enlisted in the Navy and the rest is history."

Joining the Reserves and NG/ANG in 1968 was the privileged class' way of getting out of service in SE Asia. Bush got jumped ahead of a couple hundred others to get in. So as far as I am concerned, Bush is a draft dodger.

The situation between the Guard of the '60s and the Guard today is very different; the reason is because Creighton Abrams and the Service Chiefs of the early '70s re-designed the force structure to ensure that should a sustained armed conflict occur elected leadership would be forced to mobilize the Guard/Reserve components and be less able to hide the true impact of the war's impact (as Johnson tried to do) and remove the "safe haven" the Guard became in in the 1960s for those who didn't want to be inconvenienced with serving in SE Asia.

Also, if Kerry was as "liberal elite" as rumored, he certainly could have made his Navy service easier, pulled some strings and gotten a job counting sheets on a oiler in the Med. Nope, he saw service as a surface line officer off the coast of Viet Nam. In fact, that wasn't challenging enough, so Kerry volunteered to serve on a Swift Boat...and in 5 months won a Silver Star and 2 Bronze Stars. His crew (with the exception of 1 guy), campaigns with him, as does the former SF officer he pulled out of the river under enemy fire. I don't care for some of his actions to protest the war, but he earned the right. He faced the ultimate test - leadership in combat- and passed.

One of the most highly decorated infantry units in Vietnam was a National Guard unit from Muncie, Indiana (http://www.military.com/HomePage/UnitPageHistory/1,13506,700259%7C702363,00.html).

http://images6.fotki.com/v83/photos/1/106521/398438/KERRYForFotki2-vi.jpg

More on Kerry's Purple Hearts Not nearly as much a surprise as the fact that this was in the "The Forum" section in USA Today.


"Criticism of Kerry's Purple Heart is just" (http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20040625/6319077s.htm). 6-25-4

"Retired U.S. Army colonel David Hackworth defends presidential candidate John Kerry's Purple Hearts. He correctly notes that they are awarded for a wound that necessitates treatment by a medical officer and that is received in action with an enemy ("The meaning of a Purple Heart," The Forum, June 16).

I was commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his injury on Dec. 3 1968. I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he had fired too close. He wanted a purple heart and I refused. Louis Letson, the base physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove the tiny piece of shrapnel - about 1 centimeter in length and 2 millimeters in diameter. Letson also confirmed that the scratch was inflicted with our M-79.

We admire Col. Hackworth, but he, above all people, knows why it is unacceptable to nominate yourself for an award. It compromises the basic military principle that we survive together. To promote yourself is to denigrate your team. I hope Col. Hackworth will rethink his characterization of Kerry's swift-boat comrades as "grousers" passing pn "second-hand bilge." In our case, this is firsthand knowledge, and our integrity is unquestioned.

Kerry orchestrated his way out of Viet-Nam and then testified, under oath, before Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war crimes. This testimony was a lie and slandered honorable men. We, who were actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters."

Grant Hibbard, retired commander

U.S. Navy, Gulf Breeze, Fla.
Louis Letson M.D.
Retired lietenant commander
Medical Corps, U.S. Navy Reserve
Scottsboro , Ala.

Calling the the President a "draft dodger" suggests that that just saying something that isn't true by repetition will make it true. President Bush may not have served in Vietnam but he didn't take a deferment from service like Bill Clinton did. He didn't escape to Canada like some Americans of his generation did to protest the war. If he had been ordered to go, he would have served. To call someone serving honorably in the National Guard a draft dodger does disservice to the truth and justice.

Anyway, now that Kerry feels compelled to remind people he did serve in Vietnam, it should be on the record no one objects to his service to his country when he was there. What people do object to is Kerry's conduct after he left the military and his painting with a broad brush the rest of his fellow Americans who were in Vietnam as "war criminals."

Try as he might by changing the subject, the truth is Kerry did choose after he was discharged to choose the side of America's enemy. And he thinks that should confer him immunity from responsible criticism of his judgment. To question that is not to question a man's patriotism but I think the more Kerry whines his patriotism IS being questioned, perhaps he does protest too much. The important point to remember this election year isn't that Bush wriggled out of service in Vietnam, which Kerry's own party opposed; its what he DIDN'T DO after he left the National Guard. Bush didn't side with America's enemy in a bid to be cool with people who thought their country could do nothing right then.

[Fox2]

In regards to the destroyed documents...if neither side can prove that he was there or wasn't there through documentation, it would seem that it falls to the people who were there to confirm or deny the future-President Bush's prescence. So far, most of them have said they don't remember him being there.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, but I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with yah there, Tane. ;)

http://www.conservativetruth.org/article.php?id=2131

I'll probably attract some heat due to the political leaning of the hosting site, but still, please read the article.

I'm not quite convinced yet that a stellar military record is a prerequisite for the Oval Office.

Furthermore, as far as I know (and feel free to correct me on this one), Bush hasn't really touted his ANG service during his campaigning.


So we agree about the carrier landing at least, or no?

Personally, I don't know how that is relevant to the discussion. Sure, it was a bit over the top, I will agree. But what does that have to do with his service record?

I'll differ here to what John McCain said in a recent interview. (The entire transcript of which, can be find in this post (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19252), by the way)


The American people are not particularly interested in who did or did not serve honorably in Vietnam. I think I think the President served honorably, I think John Kerry served honorably. They’re far more interested in the war in Iraq. They’re far more interested in the war on terror. They’re far more interested in saving social security, medicare, etc. I think we’ve got to ask our candidates to project a vision for the future of this country, rather than look back at a war that ended more than 30 years ago.

It is in this respect that John Kerry's campaign (or rather, the Kerry-Edwards campaign now) falters, in my opinion.

Personally, I haven't seen any indication from his campaign of what his plans really are. All I've heard is vague "we'll make it better" statements, with no real substance to them. His campaign, for the moment (and for the foreseeable future, in my opinion) is running on hate for Bush. But perhaps it is premature for me to expect such substance yet, as the heated part of the election hasn't really started yet.

Anyway, good discussion so far. (No juvenile insults yet, wow! :D *knock on wood*)

[Freibier]

Priceless to have a rich daddy and a safe spot in the NG during wartime while kids from not so rich familes got slaughtered.
Why am I not surprised that his file was destroyed?

[KB]

How many other National Guard units served in Vietnam? The one you mention was a LRRP Company, which indeed distinguished itself in action. It is an extremely isolated example.

My question is what DID Bush do in the ANG? Its not clear; he didn't show up much of the time, judging from his "unobserved" fitness reports. Not sure of the relevance of references to Clinton, as he isn't a candidate. If he'd been as well connected as Bush, perhaps he'd have joined the ANG too.

By 1971 it was clear we were on the way out of Vietnam. Kerry had doubts about the war before he went to SE Asia. Protesting the war was Kerry's right, as it was for millions of other American citizens who did. The cost of the war was being overwhelmingly borne by the poor and blue collar members of US society; Kerry saw that first hand. He had friends killed there. He saw the toll of the war on the Vietnamese people. He saw what the cost of war really is.

Counterinsurgency warfare, fighting against an enemy who hides among the population, is the toughest combat there is. I would hope Kerry regrets some of the statements he made during his protests against the war, but the reality is that a lot of civilians got killed in Vietnam. From the official USMC history "US Marines in Vietnam: 1970-71", page 348 "...it was all too easy for women, children, or old people to be hit by stray bullets and grenades. Keyed up Marines in night ambushes found the impulse to fire at any moving figure difficult to resist, even though the moving figure could be a child violating curfew rather than an attacking Viet Cong."

Kerry earned 3 Purple Hearts; the account you quoted accounts for one incident. Maybe the Valerie Plame/Paul O'Neill/**** Clarke attack machine will dig up some ammo to discredit his other decorations.

[budanski]

Priceless to have a rich daddy and a safe spot in the NG during wartime while kids from not so rich familes got slaughtered.
Why am I not surprised that his file was destroyed?

Yeah it also happen that Bush’s father was one of two Republicans in a Democrat state. The powers that be hated him and would have done nothing to help.

You should be surprised seeing that you didnt picked off from the article that the damaged documents happened in '96-'97 while Bush was governor. Damn Bush me be good to have pulled that off knowing one day he'll be president. Must be that Skull and Bones thingy. Wait, Cheney was at Halliburton at the time *evil music starts... :roll:

[BlackRain]

Yes...but I'm sure Kerry wont apoint draft-dodgers to key positions within the pentagon. I'm also pretty sure he wont apoint a cold war expert to national securiy adviser either. Funny even Clinton had enough common sence not to do that. :roll:

Clinton was the first US President in history to be a draft dodger.

His administration was filled with draft dodgers and those later indicted and convicted of felonies for acts committed while in the service of our great country.

A Few Examples: Henry Cisneros, Secretary of Housing and Urban Development becomes the second Clinton administration official to be indicted. Former Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy was indicted on charges he accepted illegal gifts and lied to investigators. Under investigation for overbilling clients, mail fraud and tax evasion, Associate Attorney General Webster Hubbell resigned on March 14, 1994. On Dec. 6, '94 Hubbell pleads guilty and on Aug. 7, 1995 he began serving 21-month sentence for defrauding the federal government and tax evasion. The Justice Department began investigating Commerce Secretary Ron Brown on Feb. 19, 1995 for violation of tax and financial disclosure laws and whether he took money from people seeking to influence him.

[Freibier]

Priceless to have a rich daddy and a safe spot in the NG during wartime while kids from not so rich familes got slaughtered.
Why am I not surprised that his file was destroyed?

Yeah it also happen that Bush’s father was one of two Republicans in a Democrat state. The powers that be hated him and would have done nothing to help.

You should be surprised seeing that you didnt picked off from the article that the damaged documents happened in '96-'97 while Bush was governor. Damn Bush me be good to have pulled that off knowing one day he'll be president. Must be that Skull and Bones thingy. Wait, Cheney was at Halliburton at the time *evil music starts... :roll:
hmm, I wouldn't go THAT far :P
Anyway, I just find it odd that someone who asks his people to make big sacrifices for the war on terror wasn't willing to make a sacrifice himself when his country was at war.

P.S I have much more respect for his father

[BlackRain]

Priceless to have a rich daddy and a safe spot in the NG during wartime while kids from not so rich familes got slaughtered.
Why am I not surprised that his file was destroyed?

Your statement about who went to Vietnam is a myth.


Vietnam Was a War Fought By Draftees While W.W. II Was Primarily Fought By Volunteers?

Oddly enough, the opposite appears to be true. About 70% of those who died in Vietnam were volunteers, while roughly 70% of those who died WWII were draftees. (only 17,425 of Vietnamís 58,000 KIA were draftees).

Vietnam War Myths: http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/swensson/essays_mikekelley_myths.html


The "Poorly Educated Soldier" Myth. The origins of this myth are rather mystifying. The troops during the Vietnam era were, on average, the best educated in American history to that time. Fully 79 percent of them had completed high school.


The "Poor Draftee" Myth: Incidentally, during the Vietnam era (1960 through 1975, which was two years after draft calls ended) some 26.8 million men were legally liable for compulsory military service. About 8.7 million voluntarily entered the service and 2.2 million were drafted, some of whom later volunteered for additional hitches (and thus may have been double counted). Of the balance, 15.4 million were either disqualified or deferred. So approximately 500,000 men were technically draft dodgers, but of these only about 210,000 were charged and only 8,700 actually convicted.

Source: Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War
by James F. Dunnigan, Albert A. Nofi

[Freibier]

Priceless to have a rich daddy and a safe spot in the NG during wartime while kids from not so rich familes got slaughtered.
Why am I not surprised that his file was destroyed?

Your statement about who went to Vietnam is a myth.


Vietnam Was a War Fought By Draftees While W.W. II Was Primarily Fought By Volunteers?

Oddly enough, the opposite appears to be true. About 70% of those who died in Vietnam were volunteers, while roughly 70% of those who died WWII were draftees. (only 17,425 of Vietnamís 58,000 KIA were draftees).

Vietnam War Myths: http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/swensson/essays_mikekelley_myths.html


The "Poorly Educated Soldier" Myth. The origins of this myth are rather mystifying. The troops during the Vietnam era were, on average, the best educated in American history to that time. Fully 79 percent of them had completed high school.


The "Poor Draftee" Myth: Incidentally, during the Vietnam era (1960 through 1975, which was two years after draft calls ended) some 26.8 million men were legally liable for compulsory military service. About 8.7 million voluntarily entered the service and 2.2 million were drafted, some of whom later volunteered for additional hitches (and thus may have been double counted). Of the balance, 15.4 million were either disqualified or deferred. So approximately 500,000 men were technically draft dodgers, but of these only about 210,000 were charged and only 8,700 actually convicted.

Source: Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War
by James F. Dunnigan, Albert A. Nofi
Thanks for that read, didn't know that.
Doesn't change the fact that GWB preferred to stay in safety and comfort while lots of others that had no choice made the ultimate sacrifice.

[Pooga]

In Februrary of 1968, eight tactical fighter groups, three tactical recce groups, and three wing HQs (9,343 personnel) were sent to Vietnam.

In May of 1968, two more tactical fighter groups and one medevac unit (1,333 personnel) were sent to Vietnam.

ANG pilots flew 30,000 sorties, logging 50,000 hours over Vietnam.

Be careful next time you call the Air National Guard the haven of draft dodgers (in a sense, they were draft dodgers, along with the millions who volunteered to go to war) with "rich daddies."

[Freibier]

In Februrary of 1968, eight tactical fighter groups, three tactical recce groups, and three wing HQs (9,343 personnel) were sent to Vietnam.

In May of 1968, two more tactical fighter groups and one medevac unit (1,333 personnel) were sent to Vietnam.

ANG pilots flew 30,000 sorties, logging 50,000 hours over Vietnam.

Be careful next time you call the Air National Guard the haven of draft dodgers (in a sense, they were draft dodgers, along with the millions who volunteered to go to war) with "rich daddies."
Pooga, I'm not calling the NG draft dodgers - if it sounded like that my apologies.
I was just talking about GWB and his safe spot - and his spot was safe as far as I can tell.
If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

[Fox2]

I was just talking about GWB and his safe spot - and his spot was safe as far as I can tell.
If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

The fact that he was in the ANG does not mean he wouldn't have gone to Vietnam or his father somehow "pulled some strings" to keep his unit from going. That was Pooga's point, I think (correct me if I'm wrong on that one, Pooga).

[KB]

Clinton wasn't the first draft dodger. An earlier president avoided Civil War service was-can't remember which. It was a campaign issue at the time.

Some questions for Pooga:
What percentage of the ANG went to SE Asia? How long did they stay?
What percentage of the overall sorties flown in SE Asia conflict did they fly? Did any units deploy before the Tet Offensive in February 1968?

There were and are plenty of former active duty pilots that joined and continue to join the ANG and Reserves. However, during the '60s for a young man of military age the Reserves and Guard/ANG were "safe havens" if you didn't want to go see action in SE Asia. The only other options were a college deferment, declaring conscientious objector status, or head to Canada. Getting into a unit was not easy and there were long waiting lines. Bush made a choice for his military service & chose the ANG. Pretty safe bet he wasn't going to see any action.

Bush's service is a legit issue in this election-he has described himself a "war president"; any military leader knows you don't ask your people to do something you wouldn't do yourself.

[OB Kenobi]

Priceless to have a rich daddy and a safe spot in the NG during wartime while kids from not so rich familes got slaughtered.
Why am I not surprised that his file was destroyed?

Yeah it also happen that Bush’s father was one of two Republicans in a Democrat state. The powers that be hated him and would have done nothing to help.

Predictable Republican apologist response.

Face it, your boy's a lying incompetent AWOL weasel and a thief. I'm sure you'll keep denying it to the end, but trust me, justice is coming for the crooked Bu$h family and their gang or corporate mass-murdering thieves.

Send this prick to the Texas electric chair for treason!

[Pooga]

The fact that he was in the ANG does not mean he wouldn't have gone to Vietnam or his father somehow "pulled some strings" to keep his unit from going. That was Pooga's point, I think (correct me if I'm wrong on that one, Pooga).

I guess I was too subtle, but yes, that was my point. Louisiana's ANG unit going to Vietnam was just as more probable as Texas's. They were all considered combat ready by 1968. Some ANG units were spliced into regular Fighter Wings, such as the 355th Fighter Wing, which was 85% ANG. F-102 Delta Daggers were "obselete" some will say, but so were A-1 Skyraiders and F-105 Thunderchiefs. All of our aircraft were not used in the way they were meant (except for a few) in Vietnam. Anyway, I'm digressing from the topic.

It's not like Bush joined the Zambikistanian National Guard and was a janitor or anything. Everytime you go up in the air, you have a chance—a rather high one—of crashing. Somebody made that point and it was ignored. You risk your life. If he wanted to stay safe—which is not at all an unreasonable urge—he could've just as easily joined up on a Naval Refueling Tanker (not dissin those guys; without them we don't float, but just to prove a point).

Tane, about that point of causing undue risk to the Viking (that or a Prowler? I think a Viking) pilot: practice makes perfect. The pilot would've practiced carrier landings anyway, and it's just more practice with more pressure. And he landed perfectly (caught number 3 hook?)! woot

[Pooga]

Predictable Republican apologist response.

Face it, your boy's a lying incompetent AWOL weasel and a thief. I'm sure you'll keep denying it to the end, but trust me, justice is coming for the crooked Bu$h family and their gang or corporate mass-murdering thieves.

Send this prick to the Texas electric chair for treason!

I hope you know you'll be pushing it to the end.

I don't mean to sling mud, but your tone kinda forces me to. You're not any more legit than the type of person you described. Opposite idealogy, same unbudging donkey-like frame of mind.

[OB Kenobi]

Predictable Republican apologist response.

Face it, your boy's a lying incompetent AWOL weasel and a thief. I'm sure you'll keep denying it to the end, but trust me, justice is coming for the crooked Bu$h family and their gang or corporate mass-murdering thieves.

Send this prick to the Texas electric chair for treason!

I hope you know you'll be pushing it to the end.

I don't mean to sling mud, but your tone kinda forces me to. You're not any more legit than the type of person you described. Opposite idealogy, same unbudging donkey-like frame of mind.

There's a difference between me and him. He's wrong, and I'm right.

I say this because Bu$h is covering up a whole host of crimes and is on the defensive. All that remains is for any one of those to finally be exposed. Then the floodgates will open and everything will be revealed. Starting with the Mujahedeen, Iran-Iraq & Saddam's WMD, Iran-Contra, Enron, the California "energy crisis", and how some of these things led us to 9/11 and the Iraq problem today.

Everything I mentioned had the hand of HW Bu$h behind it. Amazing, isn't it? Can't criticize his abilities, but, the man is evil.

[BlackRain]

Priceless to have a rich daddy and a safe spot in the NG during wartime while kids from not so rich familes got slaughtered.
Why am I not surprised that his file was destroyed?

Yeah it also happen that Bush’s father was one of two Republicans in a Democrat state. The powers that be hated him and would have done nothing to help.

Predictable Republican apologist response.

Face it, your boy's a lying incompetent AWOL weasel and a thief. I'm sure you'll keep denying it to the end, but trust me, justice is coming for the crooked Bu$h family and their gang or corporate mass-murdering thieves.

Send this prick to the Texas electric chair for treason!


You better watch the threats Nancy. We don't take kindly to this type of nonsense.

You may get a visit from the Secret Service.

[Pooga]

There's a difference between me and him. He's wrong, and I'm right.

That's when I go, "Ok, something's fishy here."

[He219]

If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

Yeah, German Politicians Kick Arse!

;)







http://www.davi****e.net/newsroom/europe/germany/pics/fischerpolice.jpghttp://www.nrc.nl/W2/Nieuws/2001/01/16/Vp/fischer.jpg

No wonder (http://www.selloutpictures.com/productions/baader/0,,1-47-371366,00.html) this is a sensitive subject, since many of those reformed radicals now run Germany. Not least Chancellor Schröder, himself a one-time Marxist whose past career as a lawyer involved representing Ulrike Meinhof’s close friend Host Mahler, a left-wing terrorist who later joined the far-right German Nationalist Party. Schröder’s Interior Minister, Otto Schily, also once defended Baader and Ensslin in court.

But most damning was the snapshot which resurfaced last year of Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer attacking a policeman at a violent 1973 demonstration. At the time, Fischer was already under pressure to resign after testifying at the trial of another ex-radical, Hans-Joachim Klein, for his part in a murderous raid on a 1975 Opec meeting in Vienna. In an intriguing twist, the source of the picture was Ulrike Meinhof’s daughter Bettina Röhl.
p-)

[Freibier]

If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

Yeah, German Politicians Kick Arse!

;)







http://www.davi****e.net/newsroom/europe/germany/pics/fischerpolice.jpghttp://www.nrc.nl/W2/Nieuws/2001/01/16/Vp/fischer.jpg

No wonder (http://www.selloutpictures.com/productions/baader/0,,1-47-371366,00.html) this is a sensitive subject, since many of those reformed radicals now run Germany. Not least Chancellor Schröder, himself a one-time Marxist whose past career as a lawyer involved representing Ulrike Meinhof’s close friend Host Mahler, a left-wing terrorist who later joined the far-right German Nationalist Party. Schröder’s Interior Minister, Otto Schily, also once defended Baader and Ensslin in court.

But most damning was the snapshot which resurfaced last year of Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer attacking a policeman at a violent 1973 demonstration. At the time, Fischer was already under pressure to resign after testifying at the trial of another ex-radical, Hans-Joachim Klein, for his part in a murderous raid on a 1975 Opec meeting in Vienna. In an intriguing twist, the source of the picture was Ulrike Meinhof’s daughter Bettina Röhl.
p-)
Joschka is way cooler than GWB :D
Funny how you guys always bring up things that have nothing to do with the discussion to discredit something you don't like to hear, is that a sign of misplaced gullibility ?:P (if that was the reason behind your post, otherwise please disregard the previous sentence)
Germany wasn't at war since WWII but during the last time there was no chicken out for sons of politicians.
Just one example: Ribbentrops son :P
P.S the US engagement in Vietnam was wrong IMO and led to nothing but bodybags. I rather have a foreign minister that protestet against that than some bloodthirsty <insert whatever here> president
P.P.S of course I know that the german engagement in WWII was wrong too, just in cas you want to bring that up :P

[OB Kenobi]

You better watch the threats Nancy. We don't take kindly to this type of nonsense.

You may get a visit from the Secret Service.

Calling for impeachment of a criminal is not a threat.

[OB Kenobi]

There's a difference between me and him. He's wrong, and I'm right.

That's when I go, "Ok, something's fishy here."

Listen, I know most of you already know that Bu$h is guilty, and I know you won't admit it. I'm just waiting until he's finally caught. Then I'm going to say:

I TOLD YOU SO!

[Fox2]

http://www.simplifiedsigns.org/crazy.jpg

[Freibier]

oops, dbl post :oops:

[Pooga]

Fox2: I'm beginning to think so… p-)

[BlackRain]

Definitely off his meds. Paranoid and delusional at the same time.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/bso104/crazy.jpg

[Tane Angle]

Fox2, it's very possible that I read wrong. That's why I don't say "just some facts..." :D I've been on the beach since April, so I'm a bit behind the times. p-)

Regarding the NG, from what I understand, it was that specific unit that was known as, as KB said, a "safe haven." Some NG units did go, and performed with great distinction. But some everyone knew weren't going anywhere.

Regarding that at least Bush wasn't a janitor, with all due respect to janitors, because we'd be in deep doodoo without them (literally), if you're trying to go pick up a lady, are you going to say you're a pilot or a janitor? p-)

Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[martinexsquaddie]

which is the easyiest route finding a spot in a part time air force unit that does'nt ask much of you and only a remote chance of being called up or high tailing out of the country with a threat of criminal prosecution hanging over you.
I think it legit to ask questions of a political leader who starts wars but when he was of an age to go fight found an nice safe role :(
As for tony "we prepared to pay the blood cost" did'nt see ewan on the front line did anyone else? :(

[szr]

His administration was filled with draft dodgers
Ever take a look at Bush's VP or maybe a good chunk of the Pentagon's current civilian leadership?

Doing things to avoid being sent to war is just what rich kids did and probably still do, democrat OR republican. Yet somehow John Kerry ended up on the rivers of Vietnam. Anyone who can't concede this simple fact is lying to themselves.

[Pooga]

Ok, as usual, this is going nowhere (does it ever?).

Have fun kids. ;)

[OB Kenobi]

Ok, as usual, this is going nowhere (does it ever?).

They always run away when faced with the truth. I can't wait for the presidential debates.

http://members.optushome.com.au/addd/force.jpg

[Pooga]

http://www.static3d.com/gaming/bf1942/images/cupofbs.jpg

[OB Kenobi]

Ok, now that that's out of the way, let's get a little back on topic...

Name: George W. Bush (R-TX)
Born: 1946
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: You know when a guy walks away from a National Guard obligation during wartime and gets away with it, he must come from "a good family." Not that his daddy had anything to do with his getting a Guard slot in the first place - oh, no ...

Name: Richard "****" Cheney (R-WY)
Born: 1942
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Says he had "other priorities." You bet he had other priorities. Imagine how early in life you must begin scheming to get away with what this guy has. He was too busy thinking about Halliburton to go fight Charlie.

Name: I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Born: 1950±
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby is **** Cheney’s Chief of Staff. He’s had a string of no-doubt well-paying government jobs in State and Defense. He’s also practiced law. In fact, he was Marc Rich’s lawyer for years. Yes — the Marc Rich whose pardon from President Clinton was excoriated by so many high and mighty Republicans. Maybe if Scooter had been a better lawyer, his client wouldn’t have needed that pardon. Speaking of legal questions, “Scooter” is alleged by some to have traded energy stocks while helping his buddy **** Cheney cook up a new energy policy in secret. He’s also suspected of having inserted the bogus “Niger yellowcake” reference into the President’s State of the Union address. As if all that weren’t enough, he’s also a top suspect in the outing of CIA operative Valeria Plame. Clearly “Scooter” is a ballsy kind of guy, so it’s a complete mystery to us why, when he graduated from Phillips Andover in 1968, he didn’t enlist in the Marines or go Airborne instead of going to Yale.

Name: Karl Rove
Born: 1950
Employer: Satan
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: This little cherub was born on Christmas Day, 1950. Karl “Bush’s Brain” Rove ran George W.’s campaign, right down to the tiny detail of deciding Bush was going to run. The hardest part was convincing a horde of Republican skeptics that it could be done.

Name: Donald "The Don" Rumsfeld
Born: 1932
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Korea
Notes: When the shooting started in Korea Rummy here was either 18, or about to turn 18. Not to worry for him, though — he spent the war at Princeton, wearing a ROTC uniform. Once the war was over he flew jets for the Navy for a few years. Defenders of Rumsfeld will say he’s no chickenhawk — he served, and it’s not his fault the war ended before he got his commission. To which others answer, “plenty of farmers and mechanics and kids just out of high school served. Anyone as full of whatever that stuffing in him is, could have tried out for a battlefield commission.”

Name: Paul Wolfowitz
Born: 1943
Employer: The U.S. Taxpayer
Conflict Avoided: Vietnam
Notes: Deputy Secretary for Defense - yet another Bush administration man in the Pentagon who has no idea what it's like to wear a uniform. He got a BA at Cornell in 1965. Maybe if we'd had a guy as bright as he thinks he is in Vietnam, it would have turned out differently.

[Pooga]

Ok, now that that's out of the way, let's get a little back on topic...
Aww, getting outflanked by your own tactic? ;)

[Merik]

Hey anyone here that says the National Guard is for draft-dodgers can kiss my white, hairy ass.

[Pooga]

Or chug a nice warm glass of You-Know-What.

[Ratamacue]

You know when a guy walks away from a National Guard obligation during wartime and gets away with it, he must come from "a good family." Not that his daddy had anything to do with his getting a Guard slot in the first place - oh, no ...
I have a buddy in Texas who joined the National Guard last year. He certainly doesn't come from an extremely wealthy family, and guess what: he's being deployed to the Middle East soon.

[budanski]

Has the “dumbing down” of society finally culminated in a fatal disease with OB Kenobi in what he lacks the instinct to know what "truth" is?

Have you ever wondered why is it that the top 5 wealthiest senators are all Democrats? The common man? :roll: Go figure.

Presidential Net Worths
Asset Comparisons (http://www.publicintegrity.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=1&act=pfin)

Kerry / Edwards
total $16,980,265 - $79,303,304

Bush / Cheney
total $1,184,672 - $6,725,392


George W. Bush
Top 5 Income Sources
U S TREASURY NOTE DUE 05-15-06 $25,003 - $80,000
U S TREASURY NOTE DUE 05-15-04 $20,002 - $65,000
U S TREASURY NOTE DUE 05-15-07 $20,002 - $65,000
U S TREASURY NOTE DUE 02-15-03 $15,001 - $50,000
U S TREASURY NOTE DUE 02-15-04 $15,001 - $50,000

$347,852 - $1,076,000

John Kerry

Top 5 Income Sources
HEINZ H J CO $5,200,007 - $22,000,000
UNITED STATES TREASURY BILLS (1) $260,005 - $2,130,000
LEXINGTON CAPITAL PARTNERS II L P NEW YORK NEW YORK (6,7) (SEE ATTACHMENT 4 OF 2001 REPORT) $130,003 - $1,100,000
BECTON ****INSON & CO $105,002 - $1,015,000
COMERICA INC $105,002 - $1,015,000

$15,550,935 - $77,540,000

John Edwards

Top 5 Income Sources
Buyout provision of Interest in Law Firm (see Part IX) $1,250,000 - $1,250,000
AMERICAN GROWTH FD OF AMER-A $15,001 - $50,000
CHARLOTTE NC 4.75% GO $5,202 - $16,000
Bldg, TS&H investor Ptrship, Raleigh, NC $5,001 - $15,000
BRISTOL MYERS SQUIBB $5,001 - $15,000

$1,429,330 - $1,763,304

**** Cheney

Top 5 Income Sources
SHORT-TERM TAX-EXEMPT FUND ADMIRAL SHARES (VWSUX) $102,502 - $1,005,000
INTER-TERM TAX-EXEMPT FUND ADMIRAL SHARES (VWIUX) $100,001 - $1,000,000
INTER-TERM TREASURY FUND ADMIRAL SHARES (VFIUX) $100,001 - $1,000,000
LIMITED-TERM TAX-EXEMPT FUND ADMIRAL SHARES (VMLUX) $100,001 - $1,000,000
SIMON & SCHUSTER INC $100,001 - $1,000,000

$836,820 - $5,649,392



Nothing like "solidifying the support of wealthy lawyers who can contribute millions..." (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/07/politics/campaign/07lawyers.html?ex=1089777600&en=e7008ebb2f9bc764&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

Its just unfortunate that Kerry doesnt have an 's' to add the $, I guess this will do... K€RRY/EDWARD$ ;)

[Kilgor]

rofl

OB just got told

[budanski]

Oh, yeah. Speaking of Saudi Arabia... (http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=34673) ;)

[Pooga]

Kerry's wife is German so the Euro works fine. p-)

[szr]

Kerry's wife is German so the Euro works fine. p-)

Better boycott that Ketchup! p-)

[Kilgor]

Guard dogs will now be called "freedom shepherds" p-)

[n4292936]

I couldnt believe the whole "freedom fries" thing when it happened, this new "W" ketchup is just as juvenile and moronic. :roll:

[OldRecon]

People make it sound like it was his fault his unit didnt go to vietnam...

Hell sending F-102's to Vietnam would have been utterly useless.

:lol: :lol:
Convair F-102 Delta Daggers were actualy deployed to South Vietnam (Da Nang amongst other places).
Initialy for Air defence purposes, later occasionaly flying escort missions for B-52's over the north. One aircraft from 509th FIS being shot down by a Mig-21 during one such escort mission on 3. february 1968.

[Jack Mehoff]

What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.

[Secret Squirrel]

What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.

Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.

[Ratamacue]

What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.
Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.
But that's Jack's point. The National Guard doesn't just sit on its ass at home doing nothing, they do get sent into combat when required.

[OB Kenobi]

Has the “dumbing down” of society finally culminated in a fatal disease with OB Kenobi in what he lacks the instinct to know what "truth" is?

Have you ever wondered why is it that the top 5 wealthiest senators are all Democrats?

Budanski, I thought we were talking about Bu$h's draft dodging?

But since we're talking about wealth, Thereza Heinz Kerry was married to a Republican most of her life before marrying Kerry. The Bu$h family itself is filthy rich, and from not particularly wholesome endeavors.

Since we're on the subject, maybe we can go over Bu$h-Cheney's business dealings with the Bin Ladens, Saudi Royal family, Kuwaitis, Saddam Hussein and other assorted scum?

As usual, you assume I am a Demorat, I am not. I would like Bill Clinton thrown in jail as much as I would like Bu$h executed by a firing squad for treason.

That's the difference, Budanski. I want all these crooks caught, and you're an apologist for crooks.

[OB Kenobi]

Oh, yeah. Speaking of Saudi Arabia... (http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=34673) ;)

Wow, sounds like he's one of your good ol' boys. Kerry was in the Skull & Bones club too. So what are you trying to say?

But, one big difference between Bu$h and Kerry, Kerry isn't a draft dodger.

The only reason I will vote for Kerry is because I want Bu$h's crimes exposed. Under a Republican administration that's obviously not going to happen. I will vote for ANYONE but Bu$h as long as that person has a chance of getting elected.

We need to start somewhere with these crooks, better now than later. Bu$h is a great first rich boy candidate for the guillotine.

[chauncy republicans]

Has the “dumbing down” of society finally culminated in a fatal disease with OB Kenobi in what he lacks the instinct to know what "truth" is?

Have you ever wondered why is it that the top 5 wealthiest senators are all Democrats?

Budanski, I thought we were talking about Bu$h's draft dodging?

But since we're talking about wealth, Thereza Heinz Kerry was married to a Republican most of her life before marrying Kerry. The Bu$h family itself is filthy rich, and from not particularly wholesome endeavors.

Since we're on the subject, maybe we can go over Bu$h-Cheney's business dealings with the Bin Ladens, Saudi Royal family, Kuwaitis, Saddam Hussein and other assorted scum?

As usual, you assume I am a Demorat, I am not. I would like Bill Clinton thrown in jail as much as I would like Bu$h executed by a firing squad for treason.

That's the difference, Budanski. I want all these crooks caught, and you're an apologist for crooks.
God talks to George Bush...so all his crimes are justified. :cantbeli:
I'm sure though, his fan club will reply back with all kinds of acusations against Bill Clinton :cantbeli: and also informing us as to how evil radical Islam is.

[Secret Squirrel]

What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.
Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.
But that's Jack's point. The National Guard doesn't just sit on its ass at home doing nothing, they do get sent into combat when required.

The point, or so i thought, was that when there is a draft there are certain things one can do to avoid going into combat.

[Jack Mehoff]

What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.
Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.
But that's Jack's point. The National Guard doesn't just sit on its ass at home doing nothing, they do get sent into combat when required.

The point, or so i thought, was that when there is a draft there are certain things one can do to avoid going into combat.

WTF??!!! How do you avoid combat by joining the National Guard? In every America's conflict the NG/Reserve got more than their share of fighting. The draft is the last resort just in case they run out of active duty and national guard people. Currently there is NO DRAFT right now and my NG unit is already on alert status for 1 year duty in Iraq. My NG unit is the last NG unit in UTNG who has not been deploy to either Ghanny or Iraq.

[Pooga]

And you, my friends, are sitting in front of your monitors accusing people of immensely dishonorable activities that you cannot know for certain. This thread reminds me of that guy accusing Argyll and Tane of being posers.

Don't be a smacktard. At least send the man an e-mail or knock on his door. Don't witch hunt behind his back.
—Confucius, 7th Saying, Volume XI

[Secret Squirrel]

What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.
Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.
But that's Jack's point. The National Guard doesn't just sit on its ass at home doing nothing, they do get sent into combat when required.

The point, or so i thought, was that when there is a draft there are certain things one can do to avoid going into combat.

WTF??!!! How do you avoid combat by joining the National Guard? In every America's conflict the NG/Reserve got more than their share of fighting. The draft is the last resort just in case they run out of active duty and national guard people. Currently there is NO DRAFT right now and my NG unit is already on alert status for 1 year duty in Iraq. My NG unit is the last NG unit in UTNG who has not been deploy to either Ghanny or Iraq.

my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.

[BlackRain]

my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.


The best way of avoiding the draft was fleeing to Canada or or by going to college at Oxford or joining the Peace Corps or cavorting with the North Vietnamese in Paris.

[Merik]

What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.
Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.
But that's Jack's point. The National Guard doesn't just sit on its ass at home doing nothing, they do get sent into combat when required.

The point, or so i thought, was that when there is a draft there are certain things one can do to avoid going into combat.

WTF??!!! How do you avoid combat by joining the National Guard? In every America's conflict the NG/Reserve got more than their share of fighting. The draft is the last resort just in case they run out of active duty and national guard people. Currently there is NO DRAFT right now and my NG unit is already on alert status for 1 year duty in Iraq. My NG unit is the last NG unit in UTNG who has not been deploy to either Ghanny or Iraq.

my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.


Hey, if all the active duty units are off fighting a war then who is going to stay and keep the home turf safe?




And OB kenobi, what in god's green earth are you talking about when you say Bush's "crimes?" Your not Micheal Moore under a hidden screen name are you? Cause if you are then it would be really helpful for you to tell me where you live :fork:

[Jack Mehoff]

Air National Guard or not who gives a ****. You don't see me bitching why all the Navy and AF guys get warm meals, hot shower and cable television every day while I eat **** and sleep in the dirt for the last 6 years. Everybody contribute something as long as they put on the uniform. So tell me, what is your contribution beside talking **** about the AF and the National Guard?








What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.
Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.
But that's Jack's point. The National Guard doesn't just sit on its ass at home doing nothing, they do get sent into combat when required.

The point, or so i thought, was that when there is a draft there are certain things one can do to avoid going into combat.

WTF??!!! How do you avoid combat by joining the National Guard? In every America's conflict the NG/Reserve got more than their share of fighting. The draft is the last resort just in case they run out of active duty and national guard people. Currently there is NO DRAFT right now and my NG unit is already on alert status for 1 year duty in Iraq. My NG unit is the last NG unit in UTNG who has not been deploy to either Ghanny or Iraq.

my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.

[Secret Squirrel]

Air National Guard or not who gives a ****. You don't see me bitching why all the Navy and AF guys get warm meals, hot shower and cable television every day while I eat **** and sleep in the dirt for the last 6 years. Everybody contribute something as long as they put on the uniform. So tell me, what is your contribution beside talking **** about the AF and the National Guard?








What kind of low IQ moron says that National Guard is for draft dodgers? Obviously that low IQ moron doesn't have friends in NG/Reserve currently fighting in Iraq and Ghanny.
Is there a draft now? He's talking about Vietnam.
But that's Jack's point. The National Guard doesn't just sit on its ass at home doing nothing, they do get sent into combat when required.

The point, or so i thought, was that when there is a draft there are certain things one can do to avoid going into combat.

WTF??!!! How do you avoid combat by joining the National Guard? In every America's conflict the NG/Reserve got more than their share of fighting. The draft is the last resort just in case they run out of active duty and national guard people. Currently there is NO DRAFT right now and my NG unit is already on alert status for 1 year duty in Iraq. My NG unit is the last NG unit in UTNG who has not been deploy to either Ghanny or Iraq.

my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.

Get off your "moral high ground" please. Whos talking **** about anything. I was clarifying a point you couldnt seem to understand.

[Merik]

while I eat **** and sleep in the dirt for the last 6 years


Jack, now we both know that that's the fun part ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

This is just too ****ing funny. Avoiding the draft by joining the National Guard rofl . ****, the National Guard is hurting for recruitment/retention right now because all NG soldiers are oversea fighting wars.

[Jack Mehoff]

My advice for all you FNGs who want to join the National Guard and Army Reserve: do not join the national guard/reserve and not expect to fight wars and especially don't listen to that dumbass Secret Squirrel, unlike him I speak this from personal experience.

[Secret Squirrel]

My advice for all you FNGs who want to join the National Guard and Army Reserve: do not join the national guard/reserve and not expect to fight wars and especially don't listen to that dumbass Secret Squirrel, unlike him I speak this from personal experience.

With experience? You were in the National Guard during the Vietnam war? :roll: are you a complete idiot? Do you have any ability to comphrehend a historical debate/argument? NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE CURRENT DEPLOYMENT OF THE NATIONAL GUARD. The issue was during the Vietnam draft a fairly safe way to avoid humping through Vietnam or grunt work was to join the Air National Guard. Again...
my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.
I dont know how to dumb it down any further than this.

[BlackRain]

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/MichaelMoore/images/wright.gif


http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/MichaelMoore/images/ramirez.gif

[Jack Mehoff]

My advice for all you FNGs who want to join the National Guard and Army Reserve: do not join the national guard/reserve and not expect to fight wars and especially don't listen to that dumbass Secret Squirrel, unlike him I speak this from personal experience.

With experience? You were in the National Guard during the Vietnam war? :roll: are you a complete idiot? Do you have any ability to comphrehend a historical debate/argument? NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE CURRENT DEPLOYMENT OF THE NATIONAL GUARD. The issue was during the Vietnam draft a fairly safe way to avoid humping through Vietnam or grunt work was to join the Air National Guard. Again...
my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.
I dont know how to dumb it down any further than this.

Dip****, I think I know exactly what you are trying to insinuate. If anybody want to avoid fighting in wars--JOIN THE NATIONAL GUARD. rofl Another thing, try www.google.com and see how many NG soldiers were in Vietnam War before you open your pie hole.

National Guard/Reserve fought in every America's conflict.


You CAN'T be that stupid. So you are saying an Army/USMC infantryman is more valuable than a supply clerk? Without them I wouldn't have my bullets and beans to do ****. :| Everybody (except for chairborne rangers like you) regardless of MOS is just as important to make the military machine works.


Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work?

[Secret Squirrel]

My advice for all you FNGs who want to join the National Guard and Army Reserve: do not join the national guard/reserve and not expect to fight wars and especially don't listen to that dumbass Secret Squirrel, unlike him I speak this from personal experience.

With experience? You were in the National Guard during the Vietnam war? :roll: are you a complete idiot? Do you have any ability to comphrehend a historical debate/argument? NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE CURRENT DEPLOYMENT OF THE NATIONAL GUARD. The issue was during the Vietnam draft a fairly safe way to avoid humping through Vietnam or grunt work was to join the Air National Guard. Again...
my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.
I dont know how to dumb it down any further than this.

Dip****, I think I know exactly what you are trying to insinuate. If anybody want to avoid fighting in wars--JOIN THE NATIONAL GUARD. rofl Another thing, try www.google.com and see how many NG soldiers were in Vietnam War before you open your pie hole.

National Guard/Reserve fought in every America's conflict.


You CAN'T be that stupid. So you are saying an Army/USMC infantryman is more valuable than a supply clerk? Without them I wouldn't have my bullets and beans to do ****. :| Everybody regardless of MOS is just as important to make the military machine works.


Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work?

Man, why cant you grasp what i'm saying? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CURRENT NATIONAL GUARD DEPLOYMENTS OR GENERAL DEPLOYMENTS OF THE NATIONAL GUARD...NOTHING. Sorry to use caps lock, but maybe thats the only way to dumb it down enough for you to understand the argument. The debate consists solely of this (i'll try to type slowly so you can follow)...If you were Bush during the Vietnam draft , and you (as Bush ) wanted to avoid military combat , or grunt work , what would be your best choice to both fullfill military service and ensure, as much as possible that you would not experience humping through Vietnam . Again, it has nothing to do with a general discussion of the National Guard, and nothing to do with current deployments of the National Guard.

[Pooga]

Bushes grasping, humping and grunting in Vietnam? Good lord, what has this topic degraded to?

[NcDeuce]

My advice for all you FNGs who want to join the National Guard and Army Reserve: do not join the national guard/reserve and not expect to fight wars and especially don't listen to that dumbass Secret Squirrel, unlike him I speak this from personal experience.

With experience? You were in the National Guard during the Vietnam war? :roll: are you a complete idiot? Do you have any ability to comphrehend a historical debate/argument? NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE CURRENT DEPLOYMENT OF THE NATIONAL GUARD. The issue was during the Vietnam draft a fairly safe way to avoid humping through Vietnam or grunt work was to join the Air National Guard. Again...
my point is during the Vietnam draft what would be your best choice if you wanted to avoid combat or humping through Vietnam? Would joining the Air National Guard be your best bet to both fullfill military service and avoid grunt work? It has nothing to do with how the National Guard is deployed today.
I dont know how to dumb it down any further than this.

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfupope.jpg

[Truthsayer]

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/toons/varvel/varvel050903.jpg

May I ask you, Mister Budanski, what upsets you most?

- ***
- War

[Pooga]

May I ask you, Mister Budanski, what upsets you most?

- ***
- War

May I ask you, Mister "Truth"sayer, what upsets you most?

- Earlobes
- Hotdogs

Touché!

http://images.countingdown.com/images/countdowns/movies/3317862/3317862_main.jpg