China makes it illegal to discuss independence for Xinjiang

[Shuimo]

Wud this work?



By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai
Published: 12:34PM BST 28 Sep 2009
Xinjiang was the scene of deadly race riots earlier this year between local Uighurs, a Muslim ethnic minority, and Han Chinese.
Almost 200 people died in Urumqi, the capital of the province, as Uighurs rose up against the Chinese government.
China has accused a tiny minority of Uighurs of wanting to split the vast desert province away from the rest of the country and declare it as independent East Turkestan.
The new law bans locals from using the internet in any way that undermines national unity. It also bans the incitement of ethnic separatism or the harming of "social stability", according to the China News Service. No specific punishment was mentioned for offenders.
Under the law, internet service providers will be required to monitor users and report any sedition. Internet access across Xinjiang was blocked for several weeks during and after the riots in July to prevent protesters from co-ordinating their efforts.
Beijing has also denied charges that its policies in Xinjiang and Tibet have disadvantaged local populations. "There is no such thing as problems being created by Han Chinese migration to Tibet or other minority regions," said Wu Shimin, the vice-chairman of the State Ethnic Affairs Commission.
Critics say that increasing Han populations leave Uighurs and Tibetans as second-class citizens in their own lands.
Meanwhile, a white paper issued by China's State Council resolutely opposed any interference by foreign countries in China's internal politics under the pretexts of "human rights" or "religion". "China's ethnic issues are strictly internal affairs of the country itself," the paper said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/6239309/China-makes-it-illegal-to-discuss-independence-for-Xinjiang.html

[Alpheus]

Oh yeah, that'll work.
The only way to guarantee that people will talk about something is to make it illegal.

[Ordie]

What is forbidden becomes seductive.

[acosta]

What is forbidden becomes seductive.

does that apply to the united states around 1862, acid man?

[frank81]

independence is never discussable.each country knows that.

[Steak-Sauce]

Just wow.. What happens next? Will it be forbidden to eat rice?

[Flamming_Python]

Crude move. Of course separatism is illegal, and there is considerable ethnic tension in Xinjiang, but making discussion of seperatism illegal makes no sense. If anything, it should be discussed more and more, brought out into the open/mainstream, debated, etc... this will make both sides aware of each other's concerns, come to a compromise (autonomy, etc...) quicker, and sideline the more radical propaganda and views.


The only way to guarantee that people will talk about something is to make it illegal.

Nope, quite the opposite actually p-)

[Green6]

Just wow.. What happens next? Will it be forbidden to eat rice?

Please be reasonable and refrain from making nonsense sarcasm which in your case is not even funny, or should I ask you if sausages or krauts be banned.

So far as I know, freedom of speech does have its limit, and for each and every country on earth, independence of a certain part of the country is not acceptable.

[Steak-Sauce]

Please be reasonable and refrain from making nonsense sarcasm which in your case is not even funny, or should I ask you if sausages or krauts be banned.

So far as I know, freedom of speech does have its limit, and for each and every country on earth, independence of a certain part of the country is not acceptable.

So far as I know, Freedom of Speech is Freedom of Speech, and not known as Limited Freedom of Speech. I for one can go on the streets and protest against my government, in a normal way of course, without throwing rocks or torching cars.

If the Chinese government now declares the discussion about independence to be illegal, what does it mean for the avarage guy? I'm sitting in an internet cafe, looking for reasons these guys want independence, and before I can take another sip of my coffee the police comes and takes me away? What will be my punishment? Two weeks arrest? Two years hard labour?

The article mentions internet surveillance by the providers, however, how do they want to make sure I won't talk with my neighbour about this issue, thus undermining national unity?

Flamming Python is right, separatism and the main problems must be discussed by all people, in order to find a solution. The Chinese government on the other side just wants to oppress the opinion of the local people.

And therefore my question: What happens next?

[Solvent]

So far as I know, Freedom of Speech is Freedom of Speech, and not known as Limited Freedom of Speech. I for one can go on the streets and protest against my government, in a normal way of course, without throwing rocks or torching cars.

If the Chinese government now declares the discussion about independence to be illegal, what does it mean for the avarage guy? I'm sitting in an internet cafe, looking for reasons these guys want independence, and before I can take another sip of my coffee the police comes and takes me away? What will be my punishment? Two weeks arrest? Two years hard labour?

The article mentions internet surveillance by the providers, however, how do they want to make sure I won't talk with my neighbour about this issue, thus undermining national unity?

Flamming Python is right, separatism and the main problems must be discussed by all people, in order to find a solution. The Chinese government on the other side just wants to oppress the opinion of the local people.

And therefore my question: What happens next?

You lie, sir. Unlimited speech doesn't exist. Try doing some pro-terrorist speech to see what happen next.

Sitting in internet cafe to look for info is fine, as long as you don't contribute to those nonsense. Even police get lives, you know.

Xinjing is one part of China. There is no need to discuss separate it from China. Therefore, useless talking should be banned once and for all. People who like to talk about it should either China or shut up.

As for your question: nothing is going to happen. Quite disappointing, isn't it?

[saturnin]

Please be reasonable and refrain from making nonsense sarcasm which in your case is not even funny, or should I ask you if sausages or krauts be banned.

So far as I know, freedom of speech does have its limit, and for each and every country on earth, independence of a certain part of the country is not acceptable.

Yes freedom of speech has it´s limit. Even in liberal country like Czech rep. there are laws which prohibit Holocaust deniel and movements oppressing human rights and freedoms or declares national, race, religious or class hatred. This is historical consenquence of WWII and communist rule and I am O.K. with that as those ideologies/ideas caused dead and suffer to millions of people. But to deny discussion about independence fo Xinjiang is something quite different, are you aware of this?

btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_holocaust_denial

as for than no country can accept independence of it´s certain part - what world do you live in? Again Czechoslovakia/Czech rep. and Slovakia is one example when to divide country is not only acceptable but even usefull as it creates better relation for those two nations by preventing any disputation from squabbling about common budget and realocation of tax many among those two countries.

[saturnin]

You lie, sir. Unlimited speech doesn't exist. Try doing some pro-terrorist speed to see what happen next.

If sitting in internet cafe to look for info is fine, as long as you don't contribute to those nonsense. Even police get lives, you know.

Xinjing is one part of China. There is no need to discuss separate it from China. Therefore, useless talking should be banned once and for all. People like to talk about it should either China or shut up.

As for your question: nothing is going to happen. Quite disappointing, isn't it?

people like you show how dangerous world is.

1) who can judge what is useless and what not? I spend last night by conversation about WWII armor warfare and as I will never use any gained informatioun in my job is it useless according to you? I have a information for you - people often talk not only to share usefull information/ideas but also just to get some fun and get out stress from work and similar. Somebody talks about actors from some korean movie another about Xinjing. If they spend good time with that conversation it is usefull (relaxation is usefull if you don´t know that) no matter if they are idiots and don´t know much about subject.

2) "There is no need to discuss separate it from China" - this is your assumption. Somebody can have different angel of view, do you want to dicuss that? p-)

3) "People like to talk about it should either China or shut up." Is it some kind of saying like China=arrested? p-)

[Parx400]

OP, who is that hot little number in your picture?

[Solvent]

people like you show how dangerous world is.

1) who can judge what is useless and what not? I spend last night by conversation about WWII armor warfare and as I will never use any gained informatioun in my job is it useless according to you? I have a information for you - people often talk not only to share usefull information/ideas but also just to get some fun and get out stress from work and similar. Somebody talks about actors from some korean movie another about Xinjing. If they spend good time with that conversation it is usefull (relaxation is usefull if you don´t know that) no matter if they are idiots and don´t know much about subject.

2) "There is no need to discuss separate it from China" - this is your assumption. Somebody can have different angel of view, do you want to dicuss that? p-)

3) "People like to talk about it should either China or shut up." Is it some kind of saying like China=arrested? p-)

I think somebody in your family probably already told you: It's dangerous out there, don't talk to strangers. Forgot it?

Territory is #1 priority for a country. I don't know how serious your country treat it. But at least for China, it's very important issue.

Don't try to misinterpret my original meaning. I limited my talking only to separation of Xinjing. I didn't say any other topic is useless. Nice try.

[saturnin]

I think somebody in your family probably already told you: It's dangerous out there, don't talk to strangers. Forgot it?

Territory is #1 priority for a country. I don't know how serious your country treat it. But at least for China, it's very important issue.

Don't try to misinterpret my original meaning. I limited my talking only to separation of Xinjing. I didn't say any other topic is useless. Nice try.

"I think somebody in your family probably already told you: It's dangerous out there, don't talk to strangers. Forgot it?"

No I didn´t but this was valid when I was few years old, now I have my own goods sense and can judge who is dangerous and who not. So why your remind me that children should not talk to strangers? Are you dangerous? p-)

"Territory is #1 priority for a country. I don't know how serious your country treat it. But at least for China, it's very important issue."

what is priority depends on current politic system, it´s politic representatives (and if there is democracy also on people). Priorities change during times. Sometimes is more pressing to improve living standard of regular people sometimes to give sucrifice to god (if we speak for example about some antic states/nations). Sometimes for those priorities there is no chance of compatibility and something must be sucrificed (and yes sometimes it is territories and sometimes it is not even sucrifice but benefit for BOTH of newly created states).

"Don't try to misinterpret my original meaning. I limited my talking only to separation of Xinjing. I didn't say any other topic is useless. Nice try"

You obviously still insist that subject "separation of Xinjing" is useless. I disagree, can we discuss that?

[Solvent]

No I didn´t but this was valid when I was few years old, now I have my own goods sense and can judge who is dangerous and who not. So why your remind me that children should not talk to strangers? Are you dangerous? p-)

O'yeah, I am dangerous. If you in fact is a handsome young lady, I am more dangerous.



what is priority depends on current politic system, it´s politic representatives (and if there is democracy also on people). Priorities change during times. Sometimes is more pressing to improve living standard of regular people sometimes to give sucrifice to god (if we speak for example about some antic states/nations). Sometimes for those priorities there is no chance of compatibility and something must be sucrificed (and yes sometimes it is territories and sometimes it is not even sucrifice but benefit for BOTH of newly created states).

Maybe it's culture thing. The territory of your country is open to dicuss. Why don't you put a price tag on some land of your country. We get some extra bucks. Maybe we can buy them and open couple of children farms.



You obviously still insist that subject "separation of Xinjing" is useless. I disagree, can we discuss that?

No, I have no intention to talk about it.

[saturnin]

O'yeah, I am dangerous. If you in fact is a handsome young lady, I am more dangerous.



Maybe it's culture thing. The territory of your country is open to dicuss. Why don't you put a price tag on some land of your country. We get some extra bucks. Maybe we can buy them and open couple of children farms.


No, I have no intention to talk about it.

"O'yeah, I am dangerous. If you in fact is a handsome young lady, I am more dangerous."

Sorry I am a handsome and straight young man.

"Maybe it's culture thing. The territory of your country is open to dicuss. Why don't you put a price tag on some land of your country. We get some extra bucks. Maybe we can buy them and open couple of children farms."

territory of my country was open to dicussion when creation of Czech. rep and Slovakia was in progress. Main and practicaly only real reason for separation was to prevent harm feeling about dividing public money among those two nations when there was need for big restructuring of industries and all social welfare after soviet occupation. We are free nation and don´t sell our home to somebody because he offers money, sorry try some different territory maybe some part of Africa or something (this was sarcasm).

As for children farms, aside from stupidity of your sarcasm (hope it sarcasm) China would be better to "produce" more children on it´s own territory given it´s demografic prediction. p-)

[Solvent]

"O'yeah, I am dangerous. If you in fact is a handsome young lady, I am more dangerous."

Sorry I am a handsome and straight young man.

"Maybe it's culture thing. The territory of your country is open to dicuss. Why don't you put a price tag on some land of your country. We get some extra bucks. Maybe we can buy them and open couple of children farms."

territory of my country was open to dicussion when creation of Czech. rep and Slovakia was in progress. Main and practicaly only real reason for separation was to prevent harm feeling about dividing public money among those two nations when there was need for big restructuring of industries and all social welfare after soviet occupation. We are free nation and don´t sell our home to somebody because he offers money, sorry try some different territory maybe some part of Africa or something (this was sarcasm).

As for children farms, aside from stupidity of your sarcasm (hope it sarcasm) China would be better to "produce" more children on it´s own territory given it´s demografic prediction. p-)

Czech? No wonder and no comments.

I meant to say chicken. It was misspelled and my fault.

[Chulo]

You lie, sir. Unlimited speech doesn't exist. Try doing some pro-terrorist speech to see what happen next.

Sitting in internet cafe to look for info is fine, as long as you don't contribute to those nonsense. Even police get lives, you know.

Xinjing is one part of China. There is no need to discuss separate it from China. Therefore, useless talking should be banned once and for all. People who like to talk about it should either China or shut up.

As for your question: nothing is going to happen. Quite disappointing, isn't it?
You can make pro-terrorist speeches here, you will be watched but you have the right to make them. Its only when you take it to action.
There are protected freedom of speech, like yelling Fire in a crowded place that will then cause panic when there was no fire.
You are allowed to talk about independence and even if you want to succeed, it problem is when you put it into action.

But obviously it sounds like you have been exposed to a very limited concept and freedom of speech

[Solvent]

You can make pro-terrorist speeches here, you will be watched but you have the right to make them. Its only when you take it to action.
There are protected freedom of speech, like yelling Fire in a crowded place that will then cause panic when there was no fire.
You are allowed to talk about independence and even if you want to succeed, it problem is when you put it into action.

But obviously it sounds like you have been exposed to a very limited concept and freedom of speech

Where? Can you say whatever you want? I don't think so.

[Chulo]

Where? Can you say whatever you want? I don't think so.
You are not reading what I am saying are you?

In reference to the thread, you can make all the pro or anti government speeches you want in U.S, you get in trouble when you act on something that is against the law.

So what you think so and what is fact is different.

[saturnin]

Where? Can you say whatever you want? I don't think so.

What chulo_Allen had probably in mind when typed "You can make pro-terrorist speeches here, you will be watched but you have the right to make them" wasn´t that you can enter police station and say: I will give million dolar to anyone who will bomb this place - and police will not aresst him. What he probably argumented than you can question current (better to say previous) government policy. You can say that Talibans are not exatly evil just some tribes and we can actually negotiate with some of them etc.. I know that this is probably suprising from somebody from China (if you live there) but it will really not get you in prison if you start publicly questioning whether there was some CIA conspiracy which pushed terrorist into 9/11 and similar BS.


EDIT: CHulo already corrected your faul

[Solvent]

You are not reading what I am saying are you?

In reference to the thread, you can make all the pro or anti government speeches you want in U.S, you get in trouble when you act on something that is against the law.

So what you think so and what is fact is different.

That's good to hear. You never know what you are learning every day.

However, I still support the ban anyway.

[Green6]

Yes freedom of speech has it´s limit. Even in liberal country like Czech rep. there are laws which prohibit Holocaust deniel and movements oppressing human rights and freedoms or declares national, race, religious or class hatred. This is historical consenquence of WWII and communist rule and I am O.K. with that as those ideologies/ideas caused dead and suffer to millions of people. But to deny discussion about independence fo Xinjiang is something quite different, are you aware of this?

btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_holocaust_denial

as for than no country can accept independence of it´s certain part - what world do you live in? Again Czechoslovakia/Czech rep. and Slovakia is one example when to divide country is not only acceptable but even usefull as it creates better relation for those two nations by preventing any disputation from squabbling about common budget and realocation of tax many among those two countries.

La République française is the country in which I live, and also it is the country where "la Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen" was born. I therefore presume that I do not need you to remind me in which world I currently live.

By saying no country in the world I was referring to countries like the USA which raged war against the confederate who wanted its own independence; the United Kingdom which would not allow Northern Ireland's separation, Canadian Québec, and also France's Corse and etc. I do believe that I need to rephrase it though.

Taking into consideration that the history of your country, as a separated case, is rather unique, I do not believe that it is suitable for most countries which have this problem.

[saturnin]

La République française is the country in which I live, and also it is the country where "la Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen" was born. I therefore presume that I do not need you to remind me in which world I currently live.

By saying no country in the world I was referring to countries like the USA which raged war against the confederate who wanted its own independence; the United Kingdom which would not allow Northern Ireland's separation, Canadian Québec, and also France's Corse and etc. I do believe that I need to rephrase it though.

Taking into consideration that the history of your country, as a separated case, is rather unique, I do not believe that it is suitable for most countries which have this problem.

this is your original words: "So far as I know, freedom of speech does have its limit, and for each and every country on earth, independence of a certain part of the country is not acceptable."

now you clasify "no country in the world" as only countries like the USA. So please next time try to be more specific as "for each and every country on earth" is quite different to "countries like the USA"....

[Green6]

this is your original words: "So far as I know, freedom of speech does have its limit, and for each and every country on earth, independence of a certain part of the country is not acceptable."

now you clasify "no country in the world" as only countries like the USA. So please next time try to be more specific as "for each and every country on earth" is quite different to "countries like the USA"....

I am sorry I confess, I said that I would prefer to rephrase it in my second post forchrissake.

[RxOnco]

I'm no big fan of the Chi-coms, but c'mon. If they want to ban wiping your a$$ after taking a sh!t, they can. That's the beauty of Communism. So, get off their jocks so they can have their little celebration.

edit: I thought this was the other "China makes it illegal..." thread.

[saturnin]

I am sorry I confess, I said that I would prefer to rephrase it in my second post forchrissake.

No problem just that original post was too much generalizing. And Czechoslovak case war rare from historical view, but it doesn´t mean that all separation must be highly violent and bloody. If there is common sense on both side it is not necessary. Also many government can at the end see separation as viable choice to prevent costly war etc.

btw. No offence but why I almost always hear so proudly about "Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen" from French? (not speaking of you particulary) it was not like they were first with that or that revolution gave something extra great to Europe. I even hear that in some France schoold this revolution is portreted as something what "saved" Europe and helped to improve live of regular people? Just asking when there is oportunity to have chat with another French.

sorry for offtopic :oops:

[Ordie]

I'm no big fan of the Chi-coms, but c'mon. If they want to ban wiping your a$$ after taking a sh!t, they can. That's the beauty of Communism. So, get off their jocks so they can have their little celebration.

edit: I thought this was the other "China makes it illegal..." thread.

If it wasn't for the United States Constitution, you would've been locked up and sent away in your advocacy for Texas Independence.

I only hope that once Texas is independent, that you will allow that same privilage to the folks that are seeking independence for South Oklahoma.

[Henry's Fork]

Nothing from China surprises me anymore. Drop in the ocean.

[Green6]

I'm no big fan of the Chi-coms, but c'mon. If they want to ban wiping your a$$ after taking a sh!t, they can. That's the beauty of Communism. So, get off their jocks so they can have their little celebration.

edit: I thought this was the other "China makes it illegal..." thread.

I am a big fan of the lone star actually and I speak openly that I think G.W.Bush is a real dude by being damn honest unlike a lot other phony politicians who only talk the talk.

However, I would like to correct something in your statement. Banning things at will is not the beauty of communism, it is the dictatorship that ruins every regulation. IMHO, China should be like one of the most non-communist countries because the commie virus has nothing in common with the traditional Chinese values which do, in the other hand, respect a lot hierarchy and absolute power.

[Henry's Fork]

I am a big fan of the lone star actually and I speak openly that I think G.W.Bush is a real dude by being damn honest unlike a lot other phony politicians who only talk the talk.

However, I would like to correct something in your statement. Banning things at will is not the beauty of communism, it is the dictatorship that ruins every regulation. IMHO, China should be like one of the most non-communist countries because the commie virus has nothing in common with the traditional Chinese values which do, in the other hand, respect a lot hierarchy and absolute power.

Agreed.

60 years of full court press brainwashing has changed traditional Chinese values into the twisted psudo commie tyrany that we see today.

I cant wait to see that new "historical" movie with Yaki Chan and Zhang Ziyi that is playing in all the Chinese theaters. :oops:

[acosta]

I am a big fan of the lone star actually and I speak openly that I think G.W.Bush is a real dude by being damn honest unlike a lot other phony politicians who only talk the talk.

However, I would like to correct something in your statement. Banning things at will is not the beauty of communism, it is the dictatorship that ruins every regulation. IMHO, China should be like one of the most non-communist countries because the commie virus has nothing in common with the traditional Chinese values which do, in the other hand, respect a lot hierarchy and absolute power.

are you wondering away from the topic?

let alone Texas in the proposed health reform would be a more "related" topic.

laws and government acts are "baning" something. all governments (u.s,russia,india,canada,etc.) enact some laws concerning secession and espionage. it's anything but "banning things at will" and it's nothing of communism. and value thing? absolute power?

what' your point? you are so confusing.