The Rise And Fall Of Islamic Spain

[Scythian]

The Rise And Fall Of Islamic Spain

http://www.youtube.com/v/_UqQ4B2DXZI

The rest of the series is on the right hand.Very good documentary for any one interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT-BpAMzODU


More information
http://www.islamicspain.tv/

[khalifah]

nice post there Scythian

The vid missed a lot of points but it being only 10minutes long has something to do with that.
BTW, its said that Rodrigo was betrayed by his Captains, hence why this army of 100,000 (or however big) ment very little against the Berbers. Also the Visigoth rule had not been known for its kindness of the peasentry, or much less anyone not of Galic blood. hence why it was an easy march for the Moors to get to Toledo

morover Gibralter was named after the legendary Tariq "the mountian of Tariq". Its a shame what had happend to him after his campaign in Spain, according to my research Tariq was called back by the Caliphate, along with another Commander,Musa bin Nusair, and was executed/imprisoned till the end of his days.

[cltknight]

its the same empire Osama and his allies are dreaming to rebuild

You do smell like a TROLL

[Scythian]

Khalifah it is a series of videos check the link.It is very long but I enjoyed it very much.

[Ordie]

its the same empire Osama and his allies are dreaming to rebuild

Not really.
It's more of using revisionist history to rationalize his cause.

What happened back then was more political than religion.

The Umayyad continued ruled over Al Andalus (Spain) as they were kicked out by their Abbasid rivals based in Baghdad.

The Umayyad escaped from Damascus and set up a rival Caliphite in Spain. (Its like the KMT setting up a rival Chinese government on Taiwan as they fled from the Communists)

Caught between a rock and a hard place (Christian Kingdoms in the north, Abbasid rivals in the South). The Umayyids use of diplomacy, tolerance and education was a means to buy time and win favors from the Christians in the north and the Berbers in North Africa.

I'm surprised that it lasted for several centuries. But it had left a big footprint in Spanish culture today. More specifically in the Spanish language. Where the majority of words that begins with A, AL or El has its roots in Arabic.

[AROUETLJ]

Where the majority of words that begins with A, AL or El has its roots in Arabic. Which has its roots in Greek....

[cltknight]

Which has its roots in Greek....

You must have been watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding :)

[el borracho]

I'm surprised that it lasted for several centuries. But it had left a big footprint in Spanish culture today. More specifically in the Spanish language. Where the majority of words that begins with A, AL or El has its roots in Arabic.

It goes beyond that, a map of Spain is basically Hispanicized versions of Arabic names:

Sevilla - Al-Ishbiliya
Guadalajara - Wadi Al-Hajara
Murcia - Mursiya
Cordoba - Qurtuba
Granada - Gharnata

...and so on. Even names, Alvarado, Alvarez, Albuquerque, Medina, are all Arabic in origin.

[Ordie]

Ojala (Hopefully) = Inshalla (God Willing)

[khalifah]

...and then right after the Reconqista Columbus sails the ocean blue (1492).
certainly, this was a colorful time in Spanish history:)


and AFAIK, there's a town just across the border here thats named in honor of the Christians victory in Spain. "Matamoros"
Mata=Killing/death Moros=Moors

[el borracho]

rincon (corner) - rukn
azahar (blossom) - az-zuhur (flowers)

Another subject is exotic foods brought by the Moors:

aceite, aceituna (oil, olive) - az-zayt, az-zaytun
berenjena (eggplant) - bazinjaan
azafran (saffron) - az-zafra (yellow)
arroz (rice) - al-ruz

Moros y christianos (Moors and Christians): Cuban black beans and rice (black beans, white rice, get it?)

Morisqueta (Moorish) - Southern Mexican dish of white rice usually served with pinto beans mixed in our poured on top.

I can do this all day, I love this subject. :)

[JUNKHO]

Not really.


What happened back then was more political than religion.

.

Is that also why Islam did not gain more hold?

[Ordie]

Is that also why Islam did not gain more hold?

Islam as a religion. No

Islam as a political unitary entity, yes.

The Caliphite system was only as strong as its weakest link. Tribal politics and infighting trumped everything.

Islam was lucky in speading largely due to the vacuum left behind from the war of attrition between the Persians and the Eastern Roman Empires.

The Umayyids and Abbasid had a constant struggle over succession.

Ever since the Mongol sacking of Baghdad in 1258, Arab political domination of Islam and urban civilization never recovered. Since that period, it has been dominated by outsiders from the Ottomans to present day.

[khalifah]

Is that also why Islam did not gain more hold?
i think i depends on what you would describe as a 'hold' of Spain. The Moors were there for a good part of 700 years. So its easy to say the culture had set itself in very well. Moreover, Peace was achieved about the time of the Rahman III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd-al-Rahman_III) who brought about the 'golden age of Al Andalus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus). I would argue that it was around the time of Rahman III that Al-Andalus became Islam's cultural center as oppose to Syria, at the time.

HOWEVER, there were the share of Caliphates that viewed the Christians and Jews inferior, through their actions in Taxation and punishment. thus steadily turning the people of Spain against Muslim Rule, which ultimatly brings up the question of how much 'hold' the Moors had.

[JUNKHO]

^^^
Thank you for the explanation. My history knowledge is terribly shallow in that regard.

[Ordie]

HOWEVER, there were the share of Caliphates that viewed the Christians and Jews inferior, through their actions in Taxation and punishment. thus steadily turning the people of Spain against Muslim Rule, which ultimatly brings up the question of how much 'hold' the Moors had.

Whenever intolerance becomes the norm, empires tend to fall.

[khalifah]

just to also add, when the Muslims came they also brought with them their craftmanship and architecture. they made absolutly beautiful structures. Such as the Great Mosque of Cordoba.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=Great+Mosque+of+C%C3%B3rdoba&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
( i cant post images here at the Uni.:roll:)

[Sada]

It goes beyond that, a map of Spain is basically Hispanicized versions of Arabic names:

Sevilla - Al-Ishbiliya
Guadalajara - Wadi Al-Hajara
Murcia - Mursiya
Cordoba - Qurtuba
Granada - Gharnata

...and so on. Even names, Alvarado, Alvarez, Albuquerque, Medina, are all Arabic in origin.
Not so easy. Muslims vs Christians actually was a fight of south vs north, upwards at first and downwards without interruptions after Cordoba califate imploded at the beginning of XI without foreign help. Geographic names of arab origin are found in Iberian peninsula only in the south half and Eastern coast of the territory. Northern fringe(galician, asturian, cantabrian, vasco-navarre(romanized basques) of peninsula never was conquered by muslims so no arab names. Just south of this fringe, what is Old Castile, was a no-man land devastated area during the first three centuries of muslim occupation as consequence of summer muslims campaigns and subsequent burnt territory policy of northern christians. As the christians pushed to the south they applied the policy they have learnt of muslims: emptied the conquered territories of muslims as much as possible and colonized them with people from the north: The result was that the 90% of spanish surnames are of christian origin(suebian and visigoth in the case of patronimic surnames), only the 10/15% are foreign(arab or other european countries) in a whole, although in Andalucia or Levante this percentages are different almost sure. Reconquista advanced faster in the west(Galicia donwards to what it´s today Portugal) and slower in the east, so Galician and Asturian patronimic surnames(most of -ez, although the -ez it´s possible a basque influence) although not properly spanish surnames(castillian) are the most frecuent surnames in Spain and America. In a whole, most of spanish surnames have their origins in the northern fringe: Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Basque country and Navarra(romanized basques), Aragón and some time after those the catalan surnames. Galician-portugueses, basques and catalans spoke and still speak different languages of the so called today "spanish"(castillian) that today it´s hegemonic, but not in that time.

Alburquerque and Medina(city in arab) are names of town and of course of arab origin. Alvarez and Alvarado definitively are christian surnames: Alvarez it´s patronimic, the son of Alvar=Alvaro=Albert=Alberto, that it´s clearly a germanic surname and most abundant in Asturias and Galicia originally. Alvarado it´s from Cantabria and possibly related with Alvaro.
About names of food and recipes, it´s true that my ancestors learnt a lot of muslim cuisine, it didn´t happen that muslims learnt a lot of us in this and other matters and I think it´s a sign of what was going to happen.

[Sada]

i think i depends on what you would describe as a 'hold' of Spain. The Moors were there for a good part of 700 years. So its easy to say the culture had set itself in very well. Moreover, Peace was achieved about the time of the Rahman III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd-al-Rahman_III) who brought about the 'golden age of Al Andalus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus). I would argue that it was around the time of Rahman III that Al-Andalus became Islam's cultural center as oppose to Syria, at the time.

HOWEVER, there were the share of Caliphates that viewed the Christians and Jews inferior, through their actions in Taxation and punishment. thus steadily turning the people of Spain against Muslim Rule, which ultimatly brings up the question of how much 'hold' the Moors had.
In no way was as such, I don´t know what peace are you talking¿? It´s true that with Abderraman III the Cordoba calife reached the highest point in all sphere. Even more, because what Abderraman III did, besides the fact his kingdom was THE POWER in west europe, it´s that he did name himself the "Califa", the highest religious authority of his kingdom, until them Al-Andalus although politically independent since Abderraman I broke obedience to Damasco two centuries before had been dependent of Damasco regarding religion, and religion was important for muslims.
But talking about peace it was a joke for christians in the north. Those tiny kingdoms were limited year after year since 711 to survive the muslims summer expeditions, that never failed, and the vikings expeditions in the winter, those were iron years for our ancestors in the north. Liberation from muslims it wasn´t like an indepence war like that of Greece from Ottomans or american rebels from king George, it was just a war or re-conquest some kilometers of territory coming from the north, cleaning it as much as possible of muslims and colonizing it with northern colonos. This only happened fast after XI century, until then life for christians in the north was hanging from a hair.

[el borracho]

Alburquerque and Medina(city in arab) are names of town and of course of arab origin. Alvarez and Alvarado definitively are christian surnames: Alvarez it´s patronimic, the son of Alvar=Alvaro=Albert=Alberto, that it´s clearly a germanic surname and most abundant in Asturias and Galicia originally. Alvarado it´s from Cantabria and possibly related with Alvaro.
About names of food and recipes, it´s true that my ancestors learnt a lot of muslim cuisine, it didn´t happen that muslims learnt a lot of us in this and other matters and I think it´s a sign of what was going to happen.

Ok, I'll admit that the Arab influence is in southern Spain but in regard to Alvarez and Alvarado...you could make the argument of Alvarez being patronymic of Alvaro; however, a possible Arabized version could be "Al-Faris" which means "the knight" or "the horseman." Highly plausible for a surname in the medieval era to arise that way. As for "Alvarado" the Arabic root would be "Al-Faridu" which means "the individual" or "the person." Kind of vague, I know, but I'm saying it's highly coincidental for both names to so easily translate between the two languages if there wasn't a link.

[USMCRTop]

This is all great stuff- too bad we can't all get in a room with a few drinks and discuss it...

[khalifah]

.
But talking about peace it was a joke for christians in the north. Those tiny kingdoms were limited year after year since 711 to survive the muslims summer expeditions, that never failed, and the vikings expeditions in the winter, those were iron years for our ancestors in the north. Liberation from muslims it wasn´t like an indepence war like that of Greece from Ottomans or american rebels from king George, it was just a war or re-conquest some kilometers of territory coming from the north, cleaning it as much as possible of muslims and colonizing it with northern colonos. This only happened fast after XI century, until then life for christians in the north was hanging from a hair.

Oh no doubt those early Visigoth kingdoms, later the Castillo and Aragorn(sp?) kingdoms, had a rough battle ahead of them to reconqer spain. Moreover it also wasnt something that happened overnight either. The Muslims didnt tuck tail and run after 7oo years, it was gradually done with , sometimes, just pockets of lands back in Christian hands.

what i know for certian was that the last stronghold of the Moors was at the city of Granada, in which case The Battle of Granada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Granada)took place over the course of 2 months in 1492.

heres a map of the steady progresss of the Christians.
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4048/reconquista.jpg

[ggk]

Al Hambra are amazing

[Sada]

Oh no doubt those early Visigoth kingdoms, later the Castillo and Aragorn(sp?) kingdoms, had a rough battle ahead of them to reconqer spain. Moreover it also wasnt something that happened overnight either. The Muslims didnt tuck tail and run after 7oo years, it was gradually done with , sometimes, just pockets of lands back in Christian hands.

what i know for certian was that the last stronghold of the Moors was at the city of Granada, in which case The Battle of Granada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Granada)took place over the course of 2 months in 1492.

I´ve never said it all happened overnight, in fact it happened overnight the muslim conquest of most of Spain, but the reconquest was slow because there wasn´t surprise factor and christians the first centuries depended more of muslim political circumstances than of their own strength, and after the XI the christians knew they couldn´t consider they controll a territory until they have enough people to colonize it, besides having some garrison in the town castle. I´ll try to resume 8 centuries: 711aC muslims invade Spain, circa 720 they controll most of the former visigothic kingdom except the NW tip of the peninsula. In that century Abderraman ben Omeya I founds Al Andalus as a muslim state independent of abbaside empire(capital in Damasco). In the north, a visigoth noble, Pelayo, founds the kingdom of Asturias, some time later the navarres organize the kingdom of Navarre.
In the first half of X century Abderraman ben Omeya names himself as Califa, the main religious authority of the kingdom. In the second half of that century first minister Almanzor(Al Mansur) began a period of annual campains against all christians kingdoms in the north, even north of Pirinees mountains deep in francs territory. Almanzor dies in battle at the begining of XI century and after some bloody political infights, the califate blows up in over 300 independent muslims ministates(taifas). The christian kingdoms of north take advantage of the situation and can controll all territory of Old Castilla(northern half of central high lands).
At the end of XI an invassion of integrist muslims from North Africa(the Al-moravids) control all taifas under one ruler and can temporarily stop the christian advance. At the middle of XII AlMoravid empire collpase again without external help and blows up in second generation of taifas. This is 400 years after muslim invassion and in this moment the christians have leveled the muslim power. At the end of that century a new dinasty of muslims integrist from N.Africa(Al mohades) invade the muslims taifas of Spain, unify them by sheer force and began a series of tough campaings agaisnt the northern christians. In the battle of Navas de Tolosa, 1212 aC, a coalition of christian kingdoms(all except the king of Leon) smashed the almohade army, it was the biggest battle in medioeval europe I think. This meant that all Castilla la Nueva(south half of central high lands) were free of muslims and the christians stepped into the core of west Al Andalus. Again, the renmanent muslims lands blows up in several little states until a third wave of integrist from North Africa, the Beni Merines, invade the spanish muslim kingdoms and found with what remains the kingdom of Granada. Anyway, at the height of XIII Portugal had finished the reconquest of its assigned territory, Aragon crown(Aragon and Catalunia) were in the eve of conquering their respective territories(Balerares islands and Valencia) and Castilla had conquered formers muslims capitals of Cordoba and Sevilla had assigned the conquest of Granada kingdom(today provinces of Granada, Malaga, part of Cadiz and Almeria). Granada was a hard bone, but anyway since it was born always was subordinated to Castilla paying taxes.
Other thing it´s the word "visigothic", I wouldn´t identify northern kingdoms as visigothics, actually the northern kingdoms were the least romanized territories of the peninsula and the least influenced by visigothics, that stablished mainly in the nicest areas of Andalucia, Levante and the Meseta, with the exception of suevians in Galicia. What happened it´s that Asturias kingdom took the flag of the visigothic kingdom and some of its institutions after the muslim conquests, but so to speak galicians, or asturians or cantabrians hardly have some drops of visigothic blood, just were their political heirs.

Granada battle actually was a long campaign that lasted a decade and finished in January of 1492. Althought Castilla was stronger(more men) than Granada, muslims had the same technological advanced weapons than castillians and a good amount of cash, it wasn´t castillians agaisnt naked indians, the territory is very difficult and was well fortified, perfect for a defensive war. There the castillians troops developed good skills as sappers and complex maneuvers of different troops and weapons. Some thing that castillians christians learnt from muslims was the use of cavalry as skirmishers in a pitched battle, and in fact in the wars of the next centuries in europe I think there were few countries, if any, that had permanent forces of light cavalry for this purpouse except Spain.
Well, if you have read until here, I wanted to mean that Arabs should have ruling Spain today if it wasn´t by their own mistakes. Our ancestors here didn´t have a chance of surviving independents if the muslims had sustained a sistematic campaing agaisnt christians, like roman did before agaisnt our same ancestors. The collapse of Califate after the death of Almanzor has been discussed by academics, it seems the big amount of power Almanzor enjoyed was the proof that the califa was weak, what was true, but again who could imagine the strongest and most advanced kingdom(and I include the Sacro Imperio Romano here) of Europe could break in little states of no more than 50km2 in some cases? All this happened in less than 20 years after Almanzor died.
Other curious facts are that spanish muslims(most of them were former hispanorroman people converted to islam) used to be more moderated than the new invaders from NAfrica(Almoravids et alia), they even cultivated and drank wine, compared with them the almoravids and almohades were a breed of puritans muslims spartans. And it´s an amazing fact that those tiny muslims taifas although weak in terms of military power they enjoyed a refinated life and some rulers had biggers bibliothecs than any other christian kingdom in Europe.
Well, I leave it here, but it´s true that those times were fascinating and are a mine to read about.

[Sada]

Ok, I'll admit that the Arab influence is in southern Spain but in regard to Alvarez and Alvarado...you could make the argument of Alvarez being patronymic of Alvaro; however, a possible Arabized version could be "Al-Faris" which means "the knight" or "the horseman." Highly plausible for a surname in the medieval era to arise that way. As for "Alvarado" the Arabic root would be "Al-Faridu" which means "the individual" or "the person." Kind of vague, I know, but I'm saying it's highly coincidental for both names to so easily translate between the two languages if there wasn't a link.
Actually before the arabs there was life in Spain, people talked a language called latin that influenced all the lands around mediterranean sea. Arabs took many words from latin, form example the word "castellum", that it´s "castle" in your language and "al-kasr" in arab, just as an example. Many hispanorromans converted to islam an in many cases their latin or visigothic names were arabized, "Yussuf" it´s "Joseph", but without any doubt "Alvar" it´s a germanic name, "Alvarez" it´s the son of Alvaro and Alvarado is related with Alvaro and originated in Cantabria. Arabs never could reach Cantabria anyway.

[IraGlacialis]

If anything, I almost see a correlation in the fate of Islamic Spain to that of the Abbasids, or in that case, the Roman, Byzantine, and Persian empires. At first glance you would never see those empires fall considering how prosperous and advanced they were compared to the surrounding area.
However you then have political infighting and intolerance (usually correlating with the political infighting, as well as enemies at the borders) begin come up to the surface, fracturing the empire.
And a fractured empire is a weakened empire, making it easier to conquer. In Andalusia's case it was the Christians and Mongols for Baghdad.

In any case, Andalusia is a place I would really like to visit for the architecture. Namely Seville, Cordoba, and Grenada.

[Ordie]

But keep in mind that the Reconquista happened over several centuries.

[SBL]

At first glance you would never see those empires fall considering how prosperous and advanced they were compared to the surrounding area.
However you then have political infighting and intolerance (usually correlating with the political infighting, as well as enemies at the borders) begin come up to the surface, fracturing the empire.

Gosh, that sounds familiar.

[Ordie]

Gosh, that sounds familiar.

The only difference was there was no democracy back then and much of the power rested upon dynastic loyality.

[el borracho]

Actually before the arabs there was life in Spain, people talked a language called latin that influenced all the lands around mediterranean sea. Arabs took many words from latin, form example the word "castellum", that it´s "castle" in your language and "al-kasr" in arab, just as an example.

Al-Qasr is indeed "castle" in Arabic, however since Arabic uses the 3-letter root system to form verbs and derive nouns, a meaning for the root of al-Qasr, "qasara," is to limit, restrict, or confine. I would think it's more likely that the word "al-Qasr" predated even the Latin "castellum" and initially referred to a smaller fortified structure, like an outpost or perhaps a protective wall around a town, but was applied to larger structures as architectural technology improved in Europe and the Middle East. I'm not denying that the exchange went both ways, but I don't think the castellum example is accurate.

[brainplay]

Al Hambra are amazing

Somewhat yes. Several sections and fountains have been preserved and are fairly good when you remember the age when they were constructed. I had the pleasure of living in Granada, Sevilla, and near Gibraltar for several months. The cultural impact is felt more in the southern regions than the northern regions. Moorish patterns are still fairly prevalent through the city. I wish I could find my pictures now. :-(

I picked up some pretty in depth reading material on the Spanish Crusaders. They were much more flexible and adaptive than their European brethren and made up the majority of the fighting forces during the Reconquista.

[Sada]

Al-Qasr is indeed "castle" in Arabic, however since Arabic uses the 3-letter root system to form verbs and derive nouns, a meaning for the root of al-Qasr, "qasara," is to limit, restrict, or confine. I would think it's more likely that the word "al-Qasr" predated even the Latin "castellum" and initially referred to a smaller fortified structure, like an outpost or perhaps a protective wall around a town, but was applied to larger structures as architectural technology improved in Europe and the Middle East. I'm not denying that the exchange went both ways, but I don't think the castellum example is accurate.
I wouldn´t like to walk into a swamp here because I don´t speak arab, just had to study arab words related with castillian(spanish) and galician, I studied latin and it´s right that "castellum" is a little fortified structure in latin, the big one is "castrum", that was latin word for military garrison or campament, considering that roman campaments were not something temporary but usually permanent bases for their legions and in many cases origin or cities of today. From "castrum" we have the word "castro" that it´s a well known surname in all Spain and with local variations in all european western countries, and I don´t exagerate if I say that there are hundreds of "Castros" in Galicia alone, almost as many as hills near a town, but they predate even the roman times and usually were built by celts. So I don´t think "al-kasr" predates "castellum", those words lived in different centuries, but "al-kasr" was used at the same time that in Castilla was used "castillo" and in Galicia "castelo" and didn´t mean exactly the same: With castillo/castelo christians referred to a single fort, while the moors called "al-kasr" or "alcázar" as it´s said in spanish big fortified complex. Maybe the best Alcazar you can see today it´s the one of Sevilla, but there are many in almost any andalusian big town or city, although many of them are in ruins.

[Roldwin]

There are three "Reales Alcázares" in Spain, and you'll be surprised to know that the Real Alcázar de Segovia is the second most visited spanish monument just behind the Alhambra.

[Sada]

There are three "Reales Alcázares" in Spain, and you'll be surprised to know that the Real Alcázar de Segovia is the second most visited spanish monument just behind the Alhambra.
I didn´t know it was the second most visited, probably a benefit of being close to Madrid and having many good restaurants around, I escaped more than once to Segovia in the middle of the week when I was in Madrid just for looking some green an breathing fresh air. Anyway, el Alcazar de Segovia it´s not an example of muslim architecture but christian, the same that the food they have there(esos lechones crujientes :lol:)

[john@staustell]

Oh no doubt those early Visigoth kingdoms, later the Castillo and Aragorn(sp?) kingdoms, had a rough battle ahead of them to reconqer spain. Moreover it also wasnt something that happened overnight either. The Muslims didnt tuck tail and run after 7oo years, it was gradually done with , sometimes, just pockets of lands back in Christian hands.

what i know for certian was that the last stronghold of the Moors was at the city of Granada, in which case The Battle of Granada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Granada)took place over the course of 2 months in 1492.



Woah woah.

This is a subject far too complex to talk of just in terms of 'muslim occupation' and 'christian reconquest'. If you think of the dates and timescales - 711 to 1492 - these moors were Spanish just as much as their northern counterparts.

After the bloody and chaotic collapse of the caliphate in the early 11th century - due to one of Almansor's descendents trying to proclaim himself Caliph instead of just using the Caliph as a puppet - the whole country was a series of different kingdoms or Taifas. The large northern ones (Leon, Castille, Aragon) had imperial designs aimed at expanding their empires, and many cross-religious alliances were formed according to the politics of the time. As Castille became more powerful it extended it's territories southward. There were a few hiccups along the way caused by the (invited) invasions of the fanatical almoravids and almohades, but these were eventually driven back as related above, not least because their brand of fanaticism was alien to the tolerant local Spanish Muslims.

The marital union of Isabella (Castille) and Ferdinand (Aragon)created the immense force that would later become Spain (under Carlos V), and also the fact that the northern kingdoms stopped arguing amongst themselves allowed them to enlarge their empire southward.

As for the War (not battle) of Granada I have read as many Spanish sources as I can find. Ferdinand and Isabella (Fernando and Isabel in Spanish) were finally resolved to put an end to the Nazari Kingdom and incorporate it - they had an empire extending to Italy but there was still an upstart kingdom in their own backyard! They put an increasing number up to about 100,000 men (including workmen etc) into the field each summer season (almost without respite) between 1482 and 1492, which was the time it took to conquer all the kingdom (Ronda, Malaga, Almeria, Baza, Velez, Granada and surrounds as per maps already posted). They were aided by the political divisions and civil wars in Granada between Muley Hacen, Boabdil and El Zagal, and a series of monumentally poor tactical and strategic decisions by the usurper son Boabdil, including getting himself made prisoner twice and therefore indebted to F and I for his release - on one of these occasions he managed to lose a large force and the Nazari's only superb general killed in an unexplained, idiotic and suicidal attack on Lucena, which had a sizeable Christian army in supporting reach.

There are some fascinating accounts of individual towns' battles and warriors' heroism during this war (particularly in El Hechicero del Gran Capitan by De La Fuente), but the general principal was that if a town put up a decent show then surrendered they would get good terms, keep their goods etc and in some cases their religion. Malaga however was in the control of 2 North African fanatical mercenaries who sent the emissary's head back in a basket, so when it was taken all the population was sold into slavery or killed and the 2 chaps in question unpleasantly tortured.

So when it came to Granada itself only remaining, we had Boadbil now in sole charge - a man who was in hock to the Christians and realised the hopelessness of the situation. He could not surrender without a fight for his own political reasons and safety, and there followed a fairly strange surreal siege of Granada throughout 1491. Actions took place, but some food was smuggled in from the Christians in return for secret co-operation and to avoid rebellion. People also seemed to come and go fairly freely as emissaries and/or spies.

Eventually the terms of surrender were secretly agreed and during the night all the main fanatical rabble rousers in the city had their throats cut or disappeared off to Africa. Final surrender 1st Jan 1492.

Ferdinand and Isabella have moorish symbols on their tombs, and weren't particularly anti-Muslim. But their introduction of the Inquisition (or the introduction under them) and repeated breaking of the treaty terms by moors led to a gradual climate of huge intolerance during the next century or 2, when anyone of jewish or muslim extract (or anything else for that matter) was eliminated or removed.

A poster on page 1 comments on Columbus (Colom in Spain). It wasn't a coincidence that he set off in 1492 so that it was 'a colourful time'. The man was a complete pest and after hawking his project around Portugal and England (his brother was taken by pirates on the way to England) he arrived at the court of Ferdinand and Isabella. They told him there was no way they could finance such a thing whilst putting huge armies and navies into battle during the war of Granada and also fighting off the Turks in Italy. He waited at La Rabida and the bishop there, well-in with Isabella, got her to agree to sponsor him AFTER the Granada war. Cunningly she forbade him to get any private sponsorship elsewhere on pain of death, which made him very impatient indeed over time. He went to see the monarchs again during the siege of Granada, but arrived just as the huge accidental fire engulfed the camp in the baking july of 1491, and thought it better to retire prudently and wait.

Once the war was over, off he went!

But really when you realise that the Visigoths came to Spain in around 507 and the Moors in 711, by the time of the Caliphate they were all as Spanish as each other. So it was really a series of civil wars - albeit with fanatics on both sides, templars or almoravides for example - and those who were driven out weren't 'driven back', they had nowhere to go!! They were either christianised or deported often to be killed by strange, hostile (and fearful) north African peoples. We cannot put it in the same context as today's politics.

Of course in the ways of the fanatically christian Spanish Empire that followed it was all black and white, and that is where our common perspective derives from.

[timetraveller]

nice post there Scythian

The vid missed a lot of points but it being only 10minutes long has something to do with that.
BTW, its said that Rodrigo was betrayed by his Captains, hence why this army of 100,000 (or however big) ment very little against the Berbers. Also the Visigoth rule had not been known for its kindness of the peasentry, or much less anyone not of Galic blood. hence why it was an easy march for the Moors to get to Toledo

morover Gibralter was named after the legendary Tariq "the mountian of Tariq". Its a shame what had happend to him after his campaign in Spain, according to my research Tariq was called back by the Caliphate, along with another Commander,Musa bin Nusair, and was executed/imprisoned till the end of his days.


Wasn't there a film made about this ... that went by the title "El Cid "


Cracking film by all accounts

[khalifah]

Wasn't there a film made about this ... that went by the title "El Cid "


Cracking film by all accounts

havnt seen it honestly,

though i find Al-Andalus to be a facinating subject of history.

[john@staustell]

Wasn't there a film made about this ... that went by the title "El Cid "


Cracking film by all accounts

Good case in proof of the whole complicated nature of Spain. Over-bearing mercenary who worked part for Christians, part for Moorish states (the Emir of Zaragoza). Came up trumps by taking Valencia from those nasty almoravids from Africa with his sort of 'private army' and went into legend.

Was given Gormaz castle as reward for his services toward the end. If anyone is travelling the Duero valley, Eastern end, check it out. (South of Soria). The guides say it is the largest castle in europe (area wise). It was originally built by the moors and the original moorish-shaped entrance arch is still there.

Get there before it over-enthusiastically undergoes 'restauracion' and turns into something fantastic rather than historical like many others, for example Almodovar del Rio! We were there a couple of years ago and there were signs of the cement trowel even then!!