The meaning of Mao! What do you think of Mao Zedong?

[Shuimo]

In the wake of the 60th anniversary of the founding of the PRC, the Chinese are now showing an enormous outpouring of their commemorating thoughts and feelings towards Mao Zedong, the founder of the new red China!:)

The announcement of the newly added parading squad "The Mao Zedong Thoughts Squad" to be staged in the National Day parade that consists of many squads just a few days ahead of Oct 1 has caused enormous waves of comments and repercussions among the Chinese Internet community!
Many people consider this as a positive signal of willingness of the CPC to hold onto Maoism, indicating that the leftist forces within the CPC seem to gain a slight upper hand over the other side in the power struggle of CPC at the highest echelon!:)

What do you think of Mao Zedong?
Do you know anything about his thougts?
What do you think is the biggest legacy of Mao to China more than 30 years after his death?



The Mao Zedong Thoughts parade (pic of rehearsal) to be staged in the National Day Parade this Thursday
http://cnpic.chinareviewnews.com/upload/200909/29/101089792.jpg












http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Images//2009/9/24/20099247332559580_8.jpg


Despite his officially acknowledged "mistakes", Mao remains a powerful political icon



The meaning of Mao By Dinah Gardner in Beijing
Keeping a watchful gaze on Tiananmen Square in the centre of Beijing, the giant oil painting portrait of Mao Zedong is one of the most enduring images of 20th century China.
Mao has been dead for more than 30 years but his image is everywhere: on every Chinese banknote, in countless city squares and emblazoned across t-shirts, kitsch cigarette lighters, posters, bags and mugs.
Beijing even boasts a grungy music bar, Mao Livehouse, whose logo is the hairline of the "Great Helmsman" himself.
During his two and a half decades as China's supreme leader, Mao enjoyed a fanatical following among millions of young Chinese.
But today, 60 years since he proclaimed the founding of the People's Republic of China, he has become more or less irrelevant to young people more enthralled by a growing economy and increasing materialism.
"He was just an ordinary man, like you and me," says a young fashion student from the southern city of Wuhan who gave her name as Camille.
"So many people have elevated him into a god, but the time of Mao has gone now. That's history. Personally, I don't believe he was a god."

Officially, Mao lost his godlike status when, in 1981, Deng Xiaoping, then China's leader, announced Mao was 70 per cent right and 30 per cent wrong.
It was an effort by Deng, say commentators, to abolish Mao's cult-like status and to draw a line under a brutal and turbulent episode in China's history.
More than 30 million people are thought to have died as a result of Mao's policies, including the Great Leap Forward, a radical economic plan in the late 1950s that resulted in mass famine.
That was accompanied at the same time by the Anti-Rightist Campaign, in which Mao launched a vicious nationwide purge of party critics.
In the mid-1960s Mao then announced the start of the Cultural Revolution, a decade-long drive to weed out what was considered "old thinking" led by ranks of fanatical Red Guards.
Mistakes
But Deng's 70:30 statement did not give the green light to an honest appraisal of Mao's rule. Until this day, Mao's mistakes have never been publicly debated in China.
Young Chinese views on Mao are shaped early on through school history textbooks, which refer to Mao's mistakes but gloss over the bloody details.
Mao is portrayed as a great revolutionary figure who made some errors but who is still revered as the founder of the nation.
Mao is not explicitly implicated in the Cultural Revolution, for example. Instead, the official line goes, he is guilty merely of bad judgement and of allowing himself to be hoodwinked by his wife, Jiang Qing, and her cronies.
Teachers are unlikely to fill in the gaps, say commentators.
Indeed, in some parts of the country, Mao is now hardly mentioned in text books. In Shanghai in 2006, Mao was virtually dropped from the city's high school history books except for one sentence on etiquette.
So it is no surprise then that the majority of Chinese youth grow up with little understanding of, and even indifference to, Mao's legacy.
"Parents are not interested in talking about it, the textbooks don't talk about it, their teachers don't want to talk about it and students are not interested in finding out about it," says David Moser, a professor of Chinese studies and an academic director at Capital Normal University in Beijing.
"They don't really care and they are not being pushed to find out."
While the mainstream view of Mao is indifference tinged with respect, there are minority groups who do hold strong opinions on the former Chairman.
The more nationalistic youth tend to idolise Mao. The most obvious example are the "fenqing" (angry youth), who use the internet to vent their fury against countries, organisations or people they feel threaten China's rise.
Criticism 'resented'
In retaliation for protests that disrupted China's Olympic torch relay last year, a Chinese university student posted a six-minute nationalistic homemade video on Youtube.
The opening shots are of Mao with sunbeams emanating out of his head. In the first 10 days it attracted more than a million hits.
"Some of the younger kids are nationalistic so many look at Mao as a great leader," says Moser.

Take the business of Mao impersonators, for example. These are men who make a living looking and acting like Mao for television skits and functions. These men never make fun of Mao, he says. The fun is in the re-creation.
"You can't do parodies of any leaders and the Mao impersonators just use his famous quotes and mimic his actions. It's more homage to him."
Similarly, in the movie world, filmmakers always depict Mao as a revolutionary hero.
The two propaganda blockbusters put out for the October 1 celebrations - Tiananmen and The Founding of a Republic - are good examples.
"What we do get are revolutionary history films that depict his glorious achievements. The private life, the mistakes and the declining years are unseen," says Chris Berry, a professor of film studies at the University of London's Goldsmiths College.
And it's not just because vilifying Mao would be taboo, he argues.
'Mao the hero'
"While I doubt the government would permit anything like that, I also think that most Chinese viewers are not very interested in a critical perspective on Mao. They want Mao the hero."
A film that portrayed Mao as a dictator who caused millions of people to die would he says be seen not merely as a mistake, "but as a crime – an attack on the state".
There is one area, though, where there is some scope for playing with Mao's image and that is the art world.
"Artists are able to do these sacrilegious images of Mao that go well beyond the Andy Warhol images of him wearing lipstick," says Moser. "There's almost total freedom to parody him in modern art."
It's a niche market, which is only seen by foreigners and the arts community and so the government "has given up", he says.
One of the more outspoken artists is Ai Weiwei who is not shy of sharing his opinion.
Ai holds no fond memories of Mao.
"Mao enforced his will rather than served the people," he says. "He was one of those rotten emperors."
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/09/2009923112053530390.html

[Mango Madness]

He's dreamy...

[Derbedeu]

I don't think his legacy is a good one. Had he died in 1950, he probably would have been respected not just in China, but also all over the world as bringing China out of the darkness that was 1912-1949. Personally, I admire Sun Yat-sen and Deng Xiaoping. I can't say the same about Mao. Like I stated in another thread, he was a great revolutionary leader, a horrible national leader, and not exactly an upright person when it came to his personal life.

[Skutatos]

I don't think his legacy is a good one. Had he died in 1950, he probably would have been respected not just in China, but also all over the world as bringing China out of the darkness that was 1912-1949. Personally, I admire Sun Yat-sen and Deng Xiaoping. I can't say the same about Mao. Like I stated in another thread, he was a great revolutionary leader, a horrible national leader, and not exactly an upright person when it came to his personal life.

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

[salmagundi]

If it wasn't for Mao Taiwan would still be united with China.p-)

[pacifist]

Mao kept China from developing.

After he died China started rising.

[tusiki]

A failure defeated by the Darwinism Sinister Gang in a sense. Marx is the same. Thinking on soft power.

[West Texican]

Researching his leadership reveals little to praise and much to condemn, but what matters is the Chinese view of him. He is a major part of their history.

[Connaught Ranger]

Set China back at least 150 years, caused the needless deaths of thousands through famine, need we say more? :roll:

[Ordie]

Mao was a murderous bastard that made ordinary Chinese suffer for two generations.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

^^ agree. He's one reason why China failed to develop for so many decades and now I have to constantly hear about it, as if it's some kind of an inexplicable miracle that China finally joined the rest of us.

[Euroamerican]

Murderous monster of millions. Revering him is like revering Hitler.

[dave81]

I loved his suits, though. Always wanted one.

[Hollis]

I think there is more to consider in deciding about Mao;

Condition of China prior the Japanese invasion. Major coastal cities were under a foreign military tribunal.

The civil war, the war with Japan then we drift into the cold war insanity.

Soviet-Sino relationships.

The finally the Nixon/Mao, US and China trade agreement.

A very complex man, during a complex time. Over simplifications of both man and times does neither justice.

[Ssandro]

Pure evil
In some ways he was worse than hitler, with his mass rape sprees ect

[Solvent]

I think there is more to consider in deciding about Mao;

Condition of China prior the Japanese invasion. Major coastal cities were under a foreign military tribunal.

The civil war, the war with Japan then we drift into the cold war insanity.

Soviet-Sino relationships.

The finally the Nixon/Mao, US and China trade agreement.

A very complex man, during a complex time. Over simplifications of both man and times does neither justice.

Two thumbs up, very thoughtful comment, sir.

[matthew.manhorn]

Great revolutionary and tactician, horrible leader.

Can't blame Mao, most revolutionaries end up being dictators anyway (Sun Yat Sen and George Washington were a rare case).

What's causing China's demise and suffering is not a CCP issue or a KMT issue, it's a Chinese issue in general. The KMT weren't any better until the CKS dictatorship fell apart due to US pressure. Chinese people ares still too immature to rule their own land and are always ****ed to dictatorship imo, Taiwan and Hong Kong are great examples.

[damagejackal]

Mao was a murderous bastard that made ordinary Chinese suffer for two generations.


Your totally wrong Ordie !! Mao was a genius, he managed to get 1 billion Chinese co-operating and working together for the greater good.
...I can't even get 3 Chinese to work together:)

[Hollis]

Great revolutionary and tactician, horrible leader.

Can't blame Mao, most revolutionaries end up being dictators anyway (Sun Yat Sen and George Washington were a rare case).

What's causing China's demise and suffering is not a CCP issue or a KMT issue, it's a Chinese issue in general. The KMT weren't any better until the CKS dictatorship fell apart due to US pressure. Chinese people ares still too immature to rule their own land and are always ****ed to dictatorship imo, Taiwan and Hong Kong are great examples.

I think it is not a issue of maturity, more like learning to live as "free people". People who are conditioned to be surfs, peasants, slaves, etc will generally accept that role in life. One can free the body, but the mind needs to be free. People who get greedy for power, tend not to want to empower those below them. For a revolutionary it creates a difficult paradox. How to free the mind of the oppressed without oppressing them.

Probably the biggest failure of "liberation" movements.

[Solvent]

I think it is not a issue of maturity, more like learning to live as "free people". People who are conditioned to be surfs, peasants, slaves, etc will generally accept that role in life. One can free the body, but the mind needs to be free. People who get greedy for power, tend not to want to empower those below them. For a revolutionary it creates a difficult paradox. How to free the mind of the oppressed without oppressing them.

Probably the biggest failure of "liberation" movements.

That's very true.

In the case of Chinese, people have been stuck in a death cycle of dynasty after dynasty for thousands years. Majority of the population were living poor and without education. Even existing education was solely to serve governing not for making people's lives better. To change it, need generations' efforts.

[matthew.manhorn]

I think it is not a issue of maturity, more like learning to live as "free people". People who are conditioned to be surfs, peasants, slaves, etc will generally accept that role in life. One can free the body, but the mind needs to be free. People who get greedy for power, tend not to want to empower those below them. For a revolutionary it creates a difficult paradox. How to free the mind of the oppressed without oppressing them.

Probably the biggest failure of "liberation" movements.

That's true, it took years of Japanese and American rule to free the mindset of Taiwanese people from the thousands of years of totalitarian rule. Same goes to the British rule of Hong Kong.

I still amazes me on how most Chinese Nobel prize winners are scientists who live in foreign democratic countries (Besides Peace Prize since most of them are dissidents who are imprisoned in China).

Dictatorship in China is a Chinese issue as we see on how the KMT brought dictatorship to Taiwan, CCP brought Dictatorship to China, and how the Chinese brought dictatorship in Singapore. Or how people can endorse a dictatorial warlord Yuen Shi Kai over an educated, democratic Sun Yat Sen as the leader of China.

[Hongjian]

That's very true.

In the case of Chinese, people have been stuck in a death cycle of dynasty after dynasty for thousands years. Majority of the population were living poor and without education. Even existing education was solely to serve governing not for making people's lives better. To change it, need generations' efforts.


...Or just a second Cultural Revolution + Collective Brainwashing to destroy everything what's left from the Chinese Culture and Tradition.

Like an extreme form of 'denazification' that aims at rooting out the chinese way of thinking.

Seriously, without the total destruction of chinese culture, we will continue to worthship our Emperors and Maos, even in the future.

[matthew.manhorn]

...Or just a second Cultural Revolution + Collective Brainwashing to destroy everything what's left from the Chinese Culture and Tradition.

Like an extreme form of 'denazification' that aims at rooting out the chinese way of thinking.

Seriously, without the total destruction of chinese culture, we will continue to worthship our Emperors and Maos, even in the future.

Yeah just like the cultural revolution did right? The best way is to preserve the good aspects of Chinese culture while eliminating the bad things of it. I despise Confucianism's sexist idiology yet I love Chinese food and family values woot .

Westerners eliminated their some of their ugly practices too such as burning witches feeding whisky to patients when they're approaching democracy. You win some, you lose some

[Shuimo]

I am not a bit surprised by these one-sided superficial understanding and views on such a complicated, historical figure of Mao, given the internationally bad reputation of the communist cause he devoted to!

I've done lots of reading of Mao's works recently in the wake of the 60 anniversary of the PRC, prompting me to do a rethinking of Mao and what he means to China and the Chinese!

I wudn't be that generous as Deng Xiaoping, who said/verdicted on behalaf of CPC that Mao is 70% right, 30% wrong!

I wud verdict that 51% of Mao is achievement, while 49% of him is failure and mistakes,not to say crimes!

He sole and uttermost achievement is doubtless his contribution to get old war-ridden China liberated from the mighty paws of bullying imperialist powers, and that being done by him almost single-handedly, shaking the Middle Kingdom off all the abysmal insufferings and shame and stigma that had been plaguing the Chinese people for more than a century following the Opium War in 1840!
For Which Mao wud always be appreciated and respected and deified by all Chinese and latter generations!
What he achieved with the founding of a new China is just truly insurmountable and unbeatable!

His greatest legacy to China and the Chinese, IMO, is neither political nor ideological, but spiritual! His sweeping reach of personality and character, of course along his delivery of a new China, lent such boosting to Chinese confidence in themsleves that it can never be overestimated!

For his mistakes and falures, I think you are all too familiar!I'd better skip it!

[Solvent]

...Or just a second Cultural Revolution + Collective Brainwashing to destroy everything what's left from the Chinese Culture and Tradition.

Like an extreme form of 'denazification' that aims at rooting out the chinese way of thinking.

Seriously, without the total destruction of chinese culture, we will continue to worthship our Emperors and Maos, even in the future.

Yes, I actually agree with you. The Culture Revolution did free people from those old mentalities, such as disrespectful to women and submissive to authority. Even the revolution was not successful, but it was really a romantic move from Mao.

I don't think second Culture Revelation is necessary. First of all, there is no such person who has that kind of charm to initiate the campaign. Secondly, it's very hard to control the direction of the revelation.

I think the country is on the track right now. Despite the censorship, China is open to the world more than never. The accumulated education and wealth make it possible for people to go around to see, feel and learn. Give it time, things are getting better.

[Shuimo]

He's dreamy...

You mean he is a dreamy revolutionary or dictator?p-)

[Shuimo]

I don't think his legacy is a good one. Had he died in 1950, he probably would have been respected not just in China, but also all over the world as bringing China out of the darkness that was 1912-1949. Personally, I admire Sun Yat-sen and Deng Xiaoping. I can't say the same about Mao. Like I stated in another thread, he was a great revolutionary leader, a horrible national leader, and not exactly an upright person when it came to his personal life.

I agree that Mao is arguably the greatest revolutionary artist in humanity while pitifully being an abysmal social engineer!

It is still hard to accurately take stock of his legacy at this moment!
Perhaps we might do him better due when China celebrated its 100th anniversary?rofl

[Shuimo]

If it wasn't for Mao Taiwan would still be united with China.p-)

OK, there are no ifs in history!

[gaijinsamurai]

Mao was a murderous bastard that made ordinary Chinese suffer for two generations.

X2.

The revolution against Chaing and the Nationalists was probably necessary and inevitable, but China would have been far better off if someone other than Mao had led them after 1949.

There were a lot of decent, well-intentioned Communists in the Revolution, whose ideals were betrayed by Mao. Unfortunately, many didn't realize what a monster he was until it was way too late.

What I fail to understand is how, after alll the misery, death, and suffering he caused, why his portrait still presides over Tienannmen Square.

[Hongjian]

Yeah just like the cultural revolution did right? The best way is to preserve the good aspects of Chinese culture while eliminating the bad things of it. I despise Confucianism's sexist idiology yet I love Chinese food and family values woot .

Westerners eliminated their some of their ugly practices too such as burning witches feeding whisky to patients when they're approaching democracy. You win some, you lose some


yeah. that was my hope too... to preserve the good and eleminate the bad.

but the longer I live in China and the more I learn from about chinese culture, the more I come to the conclusion, that almost everything in our culture is literary 'infected' by authoritarian, reactionary and savage elements. Even our culinary culture and not to say our familiy values!
Also our language is filled with anti-democratic bias, that reflects our thousand years of totalitarian rule.
So the only way to get rid of the dictatorship, is to get rid of the whole chinese culture, I feel.

And by the way. I think the Western world is faaar more of a slave to their traditions and culture than they would like to acknowledge: The first Christian Commandment - One shall not accept any gods before the 'real' god.

I think this monotheistic tradition can still be seen anywhere in the western culture even today - especially in the constant preaching of 'universal values of democracy and freedom' - in particular to China - that everyone has the obligation to adopt it, no matter who and no matter where; The implication that this world only allows one kind of truth (the western truth) to exists, and anything else must be wrong and has to be 'regime-changed' to back the claim of universalism.

so, long story short; anyone is a slave of their respective culture.
only way to change it: Brainwashing a là 1984 or Cultural Revolution.

[Hongjian]

Yes, I actually agree with you. The Culture Revolution did free people from those old mentalities, such as disrespectful to women and submissive to authority. Even the revolution was not successful, but it was really a romantic move from Mao.

I don't think second Culture Revelation is necessary. First of all, there is no such person who has that kind of charm to initiate the campaign. Secondly, it's very hard to control the direction of the revelation.

I think the country is on the track right now. Despite the censorship, China is open to the world more than never. The accumulated education and wealth make it possible for people to go around to see, feel and learn. Give it time, things are getting better.


Fully support your view, despite me being pessimistic/cynical about China's future.


As for Mao, well for someone who has family members who died in one of his campaigns, of course there isnt much 'love' for him, from my side.

But instead I have huge respect for him being the founding father of a Nation, in the same manner in which one would have respect for one of our past dynastical founding Emperors or Karl the Great/Julius Caesar in Western History.

He will remain a symbol for a united, independent and strong China, but I hope that future generations will also learn about his crimes and wrongdoings which would result in a ambivalenced, but not disrespectful view on him.

[Shuimo]

X2.

The revolution against Chaing and the Nationalists was probably necessary and inevitable, but China would have been far better off if someone other than Mao had led them after 1949.

There were a lot of decent, well-intentioned Communists in the Revolution, whose ideals were betrayed by Mao. Unfortunately, many didn't realize what a monster he was until it was way too late.

What I fail to understand is how, after alll the misery, death, and suffering he caused, why his portrait still presides over Tienannmen Square.

Perhaps you foreigners cud never understand and appreciate the Chinese ambivalent feelings towards Mao!:|

[Shuimo]

Mao was a murderous bastard that made ordinary Chinese suffer for two generations.

Little wonder to me given yr downright one-sided self-centered ideology!

[Hongjian]

X2.

The revolution against Chaing and the Nationalists was probably necessary and inevitable, but China would have been far better off if someone other than Mao had led them after 1949.

There were a lot of decent, well-intentioned Communists in the Revolution, whose ideals were betrayed by Mao. Unfortunately, many didn't realize what a monster he was until it was way too late.

What I fail to understand is how, after alll the misery, death, and suffering he caused, why his portrait still presides over Tienannmen Square.


Because only one has the cunning mind and the charismatic abilities to make the dream of a united China to come true.

Mao was a historical necessity, no more no less. We Chinese live in the world he has created with all the good and all the bad, just like China itself is a product of a lunatic tyrant - the First Emperor Qin ShiHuang.

To remove his portrait over Tienanmen, is like to refuse to belive that he is a major part of our history, to refuse to acknowledge Chinese history itself.

[Shuimo]

Mao kept China from developing.

After he died China started rising.

Yes, Mao is insufferably trapped in his own ideology--Marxism-Lennism!
I tend to believe that he is a true believer and pursuer in Communism and Soclialism, yet he just couldn't find the right way to put them into reality!

[Atlantic Friend]

The meaning of Mao! What do you think of Mao Zedong?

I'm reading Song Yongyi's "Wenge datusha", which I couldn't recommend enough.

[Hongjian]

Yes, Mao is insufferably trapped in his own ideology--Marxism-Lennism!
I tend to believe that he is a true believer and pursuer in Communism and Soclialism, yet he just couldn't find the right way to put them into reality!


truth.

Mao smoked to much and got addicted to his own Opium, while other dictators, like Deng, only sold it to the people and didnt touched it himself.

Rule one of a successful, machiavellian Leadership: Never believe in your own crap. Reserve the Opium for the masses, not for you.

[Shuimo]

^^ agree. He's one reason why China failed to develop for so many decades and now I have to constantly hear about it, as if it's some kind of an inexplicable miracle that China finally joined the rest of us.
NO, it is not a miracle!
Presence of Deng Xiaoping to vigorously lauch economic reforms is just the anti-thesis of Maoist dogmatism!

[Solvent]

Fully support your view, despite me being pessimistic/cynical about China's future.


As for Mao, well for someone who has family members who died in one of his campaigns, of course there isnt much 'love' for him, from my side.

But instead I have huge respect for him being the founding father of a Nation, in the same manner in which one would have respect for one of our past dynastical founding Emperors or Karl the Great/Julius Caesar in Western History.

He will remain a symbol for a united, independent and strong China, but I hope that future generations will also learn about his crimes and wrongdoings which would result in a ambivalenced, but not disrespectful view on him.

Three of my grandparents died during that period due to Mao more or less. But I more consider the unfortunate was the misery of the whole country. It's always heartbroken to think about the suffering the old generations have been through.

[Hollis]

Because only one has the cunning mind and the charismatic abilities to make the dream of a united China to come true.

Mao was a historical necessity, no more no less. We Chinese live in the world he has created with all the good and all the bad, just like China itself is a product of a lunatic tyrant - the First Emperor Qin ShiHuang.

To remove his portrait over Tienanmen, is like to refuse to belive that he is a major part of our history, to refuse to acknowledge Chinese history itself.


About the only comment that I would add, was that the "decent, well-intentioned Communists in the Revolution" did not rise to the occasion. (for what ever reason). Also we could argue one way or the other as to how effective they would have been as the leader of the Chinese Revolution. Their leadership is a unknown. I would say, look at the 1930's China and ask yourself, what type of leader would it take to pull China out of the quagmire that it is in. China as moved a long ways in the last 70 years. The change is pretty amazing considering the starting point and where China is at today.

[Shuimo]

I'm reading Song Yongyi's "Wenge datusha", which I couldn't recommend enough.

For the Chinese, you don't read, it is real happenings yr parents or grandparents experienced!
My grandpas and parents have told me tons of these horrible things that occured in the infamous Cultural Revolution!

[Ssandro]

Perhaps you foreigners cud never understand and appreciate the Chinese ambivalent feelings towards Mao!:|
Because "ambivalent" feelings towards Mao can only be the result of having been brainwashed by propaganda

[Shuimo]

Researching his leadership reveals little to praise and much to condemn, but what matters is the Chinese view of him. He is a major part of their history.
This too true!
Mao is undeniably an integral part of Chinese history and Chinese culture@

Present-day Chinese are still struggling to come to terms to him and his role in PRC!

Or we still haven't got over our complex over Mao and his thoughts!

Discussion of Mao's merits and demerits in the open light is still off-topic in China today!

[Atlantic Friend]

For the Chinese, you don't read, it is real happenings yr parents or grandparents experienced!
My grandpas and parents have told me tons of these horrible things that occured in the infamous Cultural Revolution!

Honestly, it's one of the most horrible books I've ever read. The mob mentality it depicts, the violence against even newborn babies, the rapes, murders and tortures, it's right down there, with Primo Levi's books about the camps.

[Shuimo]

Because your so called "ambivalent" feeling are a result of having been brainwashed by propaganda. Read Jung Chang's biography

Brainwashing card hardly holds true of Shuimo! I grant you!

[Lazuris]

What's with all these Chinese threads lately? Did the Chicoms lift their thought ban on their internet access or did you find a hack through their blocks?

Oh and Mao was a murder that set China back 50+ years

[Solvent]

About the only comment that I would add, was that the "decent, well-intentioned Communists in the Revolution" did not rise to the occasion. (for what ever reason). Also we could argue one way or the other as to how effective they would have been as the leader of the Chinese Revolution. Their leadership is a unknown. I would say, look at the 1930's China and ask yourself, what type of leader would it take to pull China out of the quagmire that it is in. China as moved a long ways in the last 70 years. The change is pretty amazing considering the starting point and where China is at today.

Man, you are amazing in terms of your knowledge on Chinese history and neutral standpoint.

[Shuimo]

Murderous monster of millions. Revering him is like revering Hitler.


One crucial point has to be made:
It is not Mao's original intention to kill the masses!
But it is his failed policies and programes with most good-willed intentions that resulted in the deaths numbered in millions!

Mao is himself the victim of his own ideology in a times of severe historical limits and circumstances!

[Ssandro]

Brainwashing card hardly holds true of Shuimo! I grant you!
I've met a chinese student who didn't know anything about the killings at tiananmen square - what are your history textbooks at school like?

[Hongjian]

Because your so called "ambivalent" feeling are a result of your having been brainwashed by Chinese propaganda. Read Jung Chan's biography


lol. she should stop to believe that she is the only one that suffered to get sympathy out of uninformed western people.
Hundreds of millions of Chinese suffered more than her and are traumatized until today.

But just to say that Mao was entirely evil, to let one guide by one's personal hate, just makes one blind.

If we Chinese start to hate brutal dictators, we could just begin to rewrite our own history and deny our heritage, ie. continue to destroy old hutongs, temples and palace because every single stone of them is smeared in the blood of millions of our people.

btw. the Great Wall of China and the Great Canal should be denmolished too, since the former is build by a lunatic tyrant and is also known as the longest massgrave in the world and latter is filled to the brim with the blood of millions of slave laborers who digged this thousand kilometer long artificial river.

[Shuimo]

I think there is more to consider in deciding about Mao;

Condition of China prior the Japanese invasion. Major coastal cities were under a foreign military tribunal.

The civil war, the war with Japan then we drift into the cold war insanity.

Soviet-Sino relationships.

The finally the Nixon/Mao, US and China trade agreement.

A very complex man, during a complex time. Over simplifications of both man and times does neither justice.

A rare pearl of thought here!rofl

[Shuimo]

I've met a chinese student who didn't know anything about the killings at tiananmen square - what are your history textbooks at school like?

The school textbooks I used as a schoolkid do mention the event, but only flleetingly by whitewashing it as a political upheaval!roflWHich I never believe!

I of course know it is downright Massacre!
For anyone with the slightest political awareness in China wud easily relocate the truths throught the Internet just with a little Internet knack!

[Ssandro]

One crucial point has to be made:
It is not Mao's original intention to kill the masses!
But it is his failed policies and programes with most good-willed intentions that resulted in the deaths numbered in millions!

Mao is himself the victim of his own ideology in a times of severe historical limits and circumstances!
Why did he rape hundreds of young girls, according to his doctor? Was he a pedophile?


The school textbooks I used as a schoolkid do mention the event, but only flleetingly by whitewashing it as a political upheaval!roflWHich I never believe!

I of course know it is downright Massacre!
For anyone with the slightest political awareness in China wud easily relocate the truths throught the Internet just with a little Internet knack!
That's good to hear :)


lol. she should stop to believe that she is the only one that suffered to get sympathy out of uninformed western people.
Hundreds of millions of Chinese suffered more than her and are traumatized until today.

But just to say that Mao was entirely evil, to let one guide by one's personal hate, just makes one blind.

If we Chinese start to hate brutal dictators, we could just begin to rewrite our own history and deny our heritage, ie. continue to destroy old hutongs, temples and palace because every single stone of them is smeared in the blood of millions of our people.

btw. the Great Wall of China and the Great Canal should be denmolished too, since the former is build by a lunatic tyrant and is also known as the longest massgrave in the world and latter is filled to the brim with the blood of millions of slave laborers who digged this thousand kilometer long artificial river.
Except Mao was doing this in the 20th century. Also, I don't think that we, for example in the west, have to celebrate charlemagne, let alone caligula, just because they're part of our heritage. You can keep and take great interest or love in the castles, stories and palaces, without celebrating or condoning the brutality that occured

[Shuimo]

Your totally wrong Ordie !! Mao was a genius, he managed to get 1 billion Chinese co-operating and working together for the greater good.
...I can't even get 3 Chinese to work together:)

Real insight you have there!
That is also my greatest wonderment about Mao:
How he cud managed to bring together all these downtright little educated peasants remains the greatest mystery to many Chinese scholars today!

[Shuimo]

Why did he rape hundreds of young girls, according to his doctor? Was he a pedophile?

Just an odd pervision for great figures like him perhaps?

[Hongjian]

Why did he rape hundreds of young girls, according to his doctor? Was he a pedophile?


That's good to hear :)



He believed that *** with young virgins will prolong his life-expectancy.

Just a ancient Taoist Practice he believed in - just like any Chinese Emperor in the past 5000 years.

[Shuimo]

lol. she should stop to believe that she is the only one that suffered to get sympathy out of uninformed western people.
Hundreds of millions of Chinese suffered more than her and are traumatized until today.

But just to say that Mao was entirely evil, to let one guide by one's personal hate, just makes one blind.

If we Chinese start to hate brutal dictators, we could just begin to rewrite our own history and deny our heritage, ie. continue to destroy old hutongs, temples and palace because every single stone of them is smeared in the blood of millions of our people.

btw. the Great Wall of China and the Great Canal should be denmolished too, since the former is build by a lunatic tyrant and is also known as the longest massgrave in the world and latter is filled to the brim with the blood of millions of slave laborers who digged this thousand kilometer long artificial river.
You are being silly, aren't you?

[Ssandro]

Just an odd pervision for great figures like him perhaps?
Why do you judge a "great figure" differently to a normal man? He's just a man. If we think he's a "great man", he should be judged to a stricter, not more lenient, standard than a normal man.




He believed that *** with young virgins will prolong his life-expectancy.

Just a ancient Taoist Practice he believed in - just like any Chinese Emperor in the past 5000 years.

Except 5000 years ago that might have been scientifically plausible, whereas in the 20th century it is merely an excuse for your cruelty

[Shuimo]

Why do you judge a "great figure" differently to a normal man? He's just another man. If you excuse mao, you can definitely excuse polanski

Except 5000 years ago that might have been scienitfically plausible, whereas in the 20th century it only makes sense as an excuse for evil and brutal behaviour
NO!
His ****** perversion is indeed unacceptable and illegal!
But that pales into obvilion when you consider what he did in realtion to the founding of PRC!

[Lazuris]

That is also my greatest wonderment about Mao:
How he cud managed to bring together all these downtright little educated peasants remains the greatest mystery to many Chinese scholars today!

Its amazing how easy it is to "bring together all these downtright little educated peasants " at the tip of the sword.


Just an odd pervision for great figures like him perhaps

Good argement there. The Nazi's should have used that one at Nurenberg I bet that would have let them off the hook with the Jews. "Old hitler he just had his "odd perversions".

[Hongjian]

You are being silly, aren't you?


no. not really.

What I meant was just, If we Chinese suddenly begin to proclaim that brutal dictators are wrong, and that everything related to them must be destroyed, just like the denazification in Germany after WW2, then the biggest question would be, WHERE TO START?

If we just hate Mao for slaughtering our people, then we are wrong, because he was a 100% product of chinese culture and we would just disregard the philosophical tradition behind his brutality.
If we then seriously start to hate and destroy anything related to tyranny, then we must destroy the whole country, because everything was a product of tyranny.

So, I think we Chinese are in a serious philosophical impasse, that doesent encourage us to come to terms with the past.

[Solvent]

Guys, see that sticky thread regarding China. rofl

Told you guys to have some self control. Don't get yourself banned.

[Shuimo]

Its amazing how easy it is to "bring together all these downtright little educated peasants " at the tip of the sword.



Good argement there. The Nazi's should have used that one at Nurenberg I bet that would have let them off the hook with the Jews. "Old hitler he just had his "odd perversions".
Yr view as such was of course rooted in yr prejudice of juxotposing Mao and Hitler!
That is funny!

Hitler killed people with the explicitly express purposes to kill!
Mao in post-1949 PRC killed people with his failed policies and programs that were initially intended to benefit rather than to behead!

[Shuimo]

Guys, see that sticky thread regarding China. rofl

Told you guys to have some self control. Don't get yourself banned.
I suggest the MODS create a special section of CHINA on MP actually!rofl

[Hongjian]

Why did he rape hundreds of young girls, according to his doctor? Was he a pedophile?


That's good to hear :)


Except Mao was doing this in the 20th century. Also, I don't think that we, for example in the west, have to celebrate charlemagne, let alone caligula, just because they're part of our heritage. You can keep and take great interest or love in the castles, stories and palaces, without celebrating or condoning the brutality that occured


there's nothing like '20th century' or 'medieval age' in Chinese understanding. remember what I said about the infamous western claim of universalism?

that the western world achived the enlightment of the 19th and 20th century, doesent mean that the whole world is now in the age of enlightment, not to mention to have passed this exclusive western event.

You cannot claim, only because Europe has achieved something, that for the rest of the world a new age begins.

China hasnt expierienced its 'age of enlightment' in the 20th and even not in the 21th century. So the rules applied for our emperors and dictators in present are still inspired by the rules of 5000 years ago.

[Shuimo]

no. not really.

What I meant was just, If we Chinese suddenly begin to proclaim that brutal dictators are wrong, and that everything related to them must be destroyed, just like the denazification in Germany after WW2, then the biggest question would be, WHERE TO START?

Lu Xun already lambasted such absurdity most incisively and sarcastically decades ago!
It is just weird to have a logic as such!




If we just hate Mao for slaughtering our people, then we are wrong, because he was a 100% product of chinese culture and we would just disregard the philosophical tradition behind his brutality.
If we then seriously start to hate and destroy anything related to tyranny, then we must destroy the whole country, because everything was a product of tyranny.


Who is saying Mao SLAUGHTERD the Chinese people?He really SALVAGED the Chinese as a nation!



So, I think we Chinese are in a serious philosophical impasse, that doesent encourage us to come to terms with the past.


As the logic is pathetically porous, there is no such thing as philosophical impasse for the Chinese!

[Hongjian]

As the logic is pathetically porous, there is no such thing as philosophical impasse for the Chinese!


sry. your right :)

After Deng Xiao Ping, anything is philosophically and ideologically possible. It just have to work. :)

[Shuimo]

there's nothing like '20th century' or 'medieval age' in Chinese understanding. remember what I said about the infamous western claim of universalism?

that the western world achived the enlightment of the 19th and 20th century, doesent mean that the whole world is now in the age of enlightment, not to mention to have passed this exclusive western event.

Do you seriously believe the West has achieved the enlightenment?
I severely doubt it!


You cannot claim, only because Europe has achieved something, that for the rest of the world a new age begins.
Europe has its own inherently incurable flaws and problems in cultural/civilizational terms!
Europe has a far far path to follow to really achieve what I call enlightenment from my Chinese perspective!




China hasnt expierienced its 'age of enlightment' in the 20th and even not in the 21th century. So the rules applied for our emperors and dictators in present are still inspired by the rules of 5000 years ago.

You surely mean the age of enlightenment in a western sense?
No, that perhaps wud never be the achieved if you aplly western conceptions to the Chinese case!

[Shuimo]

sry. your right :)

After Deng Xiao Ping, anything is philosophically and ideologically possible. It just have to work. :)


That is charming!

Deng's greatest merit then is to lift the Chinese out of -ism-mad mentality by bringing them down to the first truth of life: PHYSICAL NEEDS come first! Practicality, fortunately, has once more returned to the Chinese mind that has been dragged in the ideological cesspool for too long!


There is no return now!
For the next round of 60 years as a choronology, China wud always be treading a delicate line btw Communist Maoism and Capitalistic Materialism!rofl

[Hongjian]

Do you seriously believe the West has achieved the enlightenment?
I severely doubt it!


Europe has its own inherently incurable flaws and problems in cultural/civilizational terms!
Europe has a far far path to follow to really achieve what I call enlightenment from my Chinese perspective!



You surely mean the age of enlightenment in a western sense?
No, that perhaps wud never be the achieved if you aplly western conceptions to the Chinese case!

haha, you're overly critical about the west. :)

what I mean was just, also out of my own experience in the west, that especially Europe have the silly habit, to proclaim that everything they believe in is the universal truth.

'Look mom, I just got twelve years old! I expect that everyone in my class should also be treated like a twelve-years-old like me. And no, I do not accept that there are people who are still six, because I turned twelve - and this is the only thing that matters!'

perfect logic. :cantbeli:

[Shuimo]

haha, you're overly critical about the west. :)

what I mean was just, also out of my own experience in the west, that especially Europe have the silly habit, to proclaim that everything they believe in is the universal truth.

'Look mom, I just got twelve years old! I expect that everyone in my class should also be treated like a twelve-years-old like me. And no, I do not accept that there are people who are still six, because I turned twelve - and this is the only thing that matters!'

perfect logic. :cantbeli:

Am I overcritical with the West?
No, not the slightest!
I am just using common sense, aided fortunately with a morsel of Chinese wisdom, to discern the horrible hypocracy looming large over Western cultures! Westerners themselves un-brainwashed by media should be aware of this!

[Ordie]

Little wonder to me given yr downright one-sided self-centered ideology!

Why give Mao all of the credit?

If it were not for the Japanese in exhasuting the KMT, Zhou Enlai's diplomatic accumen in buying time, and Zhu De military strategy, Mao would have been other forgotten rebel.

It was Mao's policies and cult of personality that led millions to die in the Great Leap Forward and the destruction of Chinese society in the Cultural Revolution. China has yet to recover from of these two events and the CCP has yet to face any trial or admission.

If the 60th anniversary is a celebration.

I wonder how the CCP will deal with the 60th Anniversary of:

Korean War in 2010
Zen Fan (counter-revolutionary pogrom) in 2010
Hundred Flowers Campaign in 2016
Great Leap Forward and Great Famine in 2018

and the 50th anniversary of the Cultural Revolution in 2016.

[Solvent]

Why give Mao all of the credit?

If it were not for the Japanese in exhasuting the KMT, Zhou Enlai's diplomatic accumen in buying time, and Zhu De military strategy, Mao would have been other forgotten rebel.

It was Mao's policies and cult of personality that led millions to die in the Great Leap Forward and the destruction of Chinese society in the Cultural Revolution. China has yet to recover from of these two events and the CCP has yet to face any trial or admission.

If the 60th anniversary is a celebration.

I wonder how the CCP will deal with the 60th Anniversary of:

Korean War in 2010
Zen Fan (counter-revolutionary pogrom) in 2010
Hundred Flowers Campaign in 2016
Great Leap Forward and Great Famine in 2018

and the 50th anniversary of the Cultural Revolution in 2016.

There is no "if" in history. What happened is happened.

You really need to read Mr. HOLLiS' comments.

[Shuimo]

Why give Mao all of the credit?

If it were not for the Japanese in exhasuting the KMT, Zhou Enlai's diplomatic accumen in buying time, and Zhu De military strategy, Mao would have been other forgotten rebel.

Again, there is no ifs in history!
In retropstect, you may add a great many ifs to fit into any of yr presumed presumptions!
Any great figures in history are a product of specific historical circumstances!


It was Mao's policies and cult of personality that led millions to die in the Great Leap Forward and the destruction of Chinese society in the Cultural Revolution. China has yet to recover from of these two events and the CCP has yet to face any trial or admission.

Did Mao harbor the express purpose to kill and butcher just as Hitler did with the jews by gassing them to deaths?
Mao is a victim of his own dearly cherished ideology --- Maxism and Lennism! It was his good-intentioned policies and programes enforced in wrongful ways that led to the deaths of millions of innocent folks!It is most regretble!





If the 60th anniversary is a celebration.

I wonder how the CCP will deal with the 60th Anniversary of:

Korean War in 2010
Zen Fan (counter-revolutionary pogrom) in 2010
Hundred Flowers Campaign in 2016
Great Leap Forward and Great Famine in 2018

and the 50th anniversary of the Cultural Revolution in 2016.




PRC has come a long way in zigs and zags, and come out stronger spiritually and materially than 60 years ago!
That is reason enough for us to celebrate!
Don't lavish all yr hatred for CPC on the whole of China and the Chinese people!

[Ordie]

PRC has come a long way in zigs and zags, and come out stronger spiritually and materially than 60 years ago!
That is reason enough for us to celebrate!
Don't lavish all yr hatred for CPC on the whole of China and the Chinese people!

Yet the former Red Guards who terrorised a generation of chinese for a decade are walking freely in the streets without care, trial or remorse.

[LazerLordz]

This is one of his legacies.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/9/23/1253740868548/Mao-Xinyu-001.jpg

[Hongjian]

If the 60th anniversary is a celebration.

I wonder how the CCP will deal with the 60th Anniversary of:

Korean War in 2010
Zen Fan (counter-revolutionary pogrom) in 2010
Hundred Flowers Campaign in 2016
Great Leap Forward and Great Famine in 2018

and the 50th anniversary of the Cultural Revolution in 2016.


For everything else, I would admitt that these where big failures.

But why Korean War?!

Seriously, there's nothing wrong about China's victorious participation in Korean War. If North Korea would be completely destroyed by the US, then China would have its enemies standing at their borders. No country in the world likes that.

Also this war is a honourable chapter in the history of both the PLA and the USMC. Dont bother them about it.

[Solvent]

This is one of his legacies.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/9/23/1253740868548/Mao-Xinyu-001.jpg

You should salute him. He is becoming general soon.:)

[Hongjian]

Yet the former Red Guards who terrorised a generation of chinese for a decade are walking freely in the streets without care, trial or remorse.


You told us to move on about Nanjing and Unit 731.

Why shouldnt we move on about these old red-guards?

[Hongjian]

You should salute him. He is becoming general soon.:)

I still wonder why Deng Xiaoping allowed him to live. His son sits in the wheelchair because of the father of this fatty...

[Shuimo]

Yet the former Red Guards who terrorised a generation of chinese for a decade are walking freely in the streets without care, trial or remorse.
I for one wud agree to bring all these lawless thugs to jail once for all if we were able to do that!
But whose fault is it really?
Cultural Revolution is the biggest tragedy of PRC caused by the delusional policies of a deified figure drugged and cheated by his own communist ideology also hoodwinking pathetically dim-witted plebeins!

It is the downright meltdown of a whole political structure and system sweeping across the whole of the country!:roll:

What do you really want to gain out of breaking down the whole political pan in which at least 50% of the fried fish were guilty when what is really needed most is to forge ahead?:bash:

[Connaught Ranger]

You should salute him. He is becoming general soon.:)

"Dung" by name and a whole heap of dung by nature.woot

[LazerLordz]

You should salute him. He is becoming general soon.:)

He already is.

But he could use some time with Richard Simmons. It's quite unbecoming.

[goat89]

he already is.

But he could use some time with richard simmons. :rofl:
:):):):):):)p-)

[LazerLordz]

I still wonder why Deng Xiaoping allowed him to live. His son sits in the wheelchair because of the father of this fatty...

Gotta give him credit for not being the vindictive ideologue which he could have been.

Sad thing about his son really..

[Shuimo]

You guys just don't realize that Mao with his Maosim, in present-day China, is truly a powerful intellectual and spiritual resource which should and can be effectively used at the disposal of the hundreds of millions of have-nots and unpriviledged Chinese folks to formulate and forge ahead their rights of various sorts, which have now been deprived of or downtrodden by the corrutpive cliques of the CPC!

[Ordie]

You guys just don't realize that Mao with his Maosim, in present-day China, is truly a powerful intellectual and spiritual resource which should and can be effectively used at the disposal of the hundreds of millions of have-nots and unpriviledged Chinese folks to formulate and forge ahead their rights of various sorts, which have now been deprived of or downtrodden by the corrutpive cliques of the CPC!

Or kill terrorise and kill thousands of innocent Peruvians in the 1980's.

[Connaught Ranger]

You guys just don't realize that Mao with his Maosim, in present-day China, is truly a powerful intellectual and spiritual resource which should and can be effectively used at the disposal of the hundreds of millions of have-nots and unpriviledged Chinese folks to formulate and forge ahead their rights of various sorts, which have now been deprived of or downtrodden by the corrutpive cliques of the CPC!

So "Essence of Dung aftershave" and "Dung table water" in the shops yet?:roll:

In the old days of Mao, he and a select handful of his cronies were the corrupt face of the C.P.G. and the poor were still poor and downtrodden.

Now a days its any state official and his dog of the C.P.C. who is corrupt and the poor still the poor and downtrodden.

[Solvent]

I still wonder why Deng Xiaoping allowed him to live. His son sits in the wheelchair because of the father of this fatty...

Kind is better than Cruel. He is just a laughable person, but he really has nothing to do with his grandfather. Besides his dad had suffered enough already.

[Hongjian]

Gotta give him credit for not being the vindictive ideologue which he could have been.

Sad thing about his son really..


Yeah, Deng reflects the best way to deal with Mao, despite personal losses.

He respects Mao as leader and founding father, but also does everything to assure that someone like him will never happen again.

It's because of Deng's unwritten rules, that the power-struggles in the CCP nowadays doesent get out of hand anymore and spills over to the whole country.

'If you guys really are so obsessed with fighting each other for power, then do it. I dont mind.
But out of everyone's interest, please do it in a limited scale and DO NOT, NEVER EVER involve the people and the whole country anymore. We dont want another Cultural Revolution. If you do, I will come back out of my grave to kick all your asses!'

I can imagine Deng Xiaoping said these words :)

[Ordie]

You should salute him. He is becoming general soon.:)

I think he would prefer these 'pillows of death'

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/242/1515498062_c9370377ba.jpg

[LineDoggie]

That's true, it took years of Japanese and American rule to free the mindset of Taiwanese people from the thousands of years of totalitarian rule. Same goes to the British rule of Hong Kong.
American Rule? when did we rule Taiwan?

[Ordie]

He respects Mao as leader and founding father, but also does everything to assure that someone like him will never happen again.

Bull Crap

Deng did it for the greater good at that time.

There was a show trial for the "Gang of Four" to placate the masses.

[LineDoggie]

This is one of his legacies.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/9/23/1253740868548/Mao-Xinyu-001.jpg Chinese Hogan heros remake

He's a shoe in for General Burkhalter
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h222/linedoggie/leonaskin7vw.jpg

[Hongjian]

Bull Crap

Deng did it for the greater good at that time.

There was a show trial for the "Gang of Four" to placate the masses.


The gang of four excludes Mao. Every fault for the cultural revolution was laden onto the shoulders of these four.
Mao remained a Hero, even when he was responsible for the paraplegia of Deng's own son.

And of course Deng did it for the greater good at that time: that's why Deng is Deng after all.

He knew that dethroning Mao from his symbolical position was politically and psychologically harmful for China and the people at that time, after they have spend their entire lifetime into worthshipping him. A destalinisation like in Russia, would be like to take the crutches away from a disabled person.

not very nice.

[Derbedeu]

You guys are forgetting that Mao was essentially still a peasant in thought. It is what enabled him to become a successful revolutionary leader, due to his affinity with the average Chinese at the time, but it is also what limited him as a national leader.

Unlike Zhou Enlai or Deng Xiaopeng, Mao never left China as a young man to study abroad. I don't believe he ever even read Das Capital! His upbringing was that of traditional Chinese thinking mixed with half-baked socialist ideas. He loved reading Chinese classics, discussing Chinese philosophy, and his whole "zeitgeist", if you will, was very ethnocentric. It's no secret that once in power he pretty much molded his life like that of an emperor.

It's no surprising that because of all of this, he had no sound scientific or economic background, and was quite frankly suspicious of doctors and economists. This wouldn't have been so bad if either he didn't hold such authority or if he tempered his ideas, but he tended to go all out. I mean look at the Great Leap Forward: He honestly thought that by having a smelter in every commune/farm, China would have a leap in steel production, which is a key component of an economic power. No one bothered to tell him and he never bothered to find out that steel simply cannot be produced in a backyard furnace. All that came out was poorly wrought iron, and the Chinese populace suffered for it (some even melted their tools and pots to fulfill quotas).

I would say that Mao's greatest theoretical contribution, still in use today, is his Mass Line theory. I would even say that it is still applicable to China today, as the PRC Government seems to utilize it as a form of tempering social ills.

[Solvent]

I think he would prefer these 'pillows of death'

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/242/1515498062_c9370377ba.jpg

...

Even I want to have a bunch of this "pillows of death".

If I am not coming back, don't cry for me, Nancy.

[Ordie]

The gang of four excludes Mao. Every fault for the cultural revolution was laden onto the shoulders of these four.

But it happend on his watch and authority.

[Solvent]

Does anybody know how to watch the parade on line?
Any links?

[Hongjian]

But it happend on his watch and authority.


Of course. Mao is the one really at fault for the cultural revolution.

But this doesent hinders the clever Deng to choose the gang of four as badly needed scapegoats for everything that happened, while declaring his infamous 70/30 formula to save Mao's face, despite being a victim himself.

[Hongjian]

Does anybody know how to watch the parade on line?
Any links?


Oh, It's that time already?!

watch on cctv.com - they have live streaming.


edit:

http://zhibo.cctv.com/cctv9/bq/index.shtml

I thought the parade would be somewhere at 10:00 AM. Now it's still 5:00 AM? Or am I wrong?


Oh my GAWD. That KFC ad on CCTV creeps me out everytime.

[Solvent]

Oh, It's that time already?!

watch on cctv.com - they have live streaming.


edit:

http://zhibo.cctv.com/cctv9/bq/index.shtml

I thought the parade would be somewhere at 10:00 AM. Now it's still 5:00 AM? Or am I wrong?

Many thanks man, I just don't want to miss it. You are right about the time.p-)

[Ordie]

Oh, It's that time already?!

watch on cctv.com - they have live streaming.


edit:

http://zhibo.cctv.com/cctv9/bq/index.shtml

I thought the parade would be somewhere at 10:00 AM. Now it's still 5:00 AM? Or am I wrong?

They've been practicing for a while, you can't tell if its the real thing or not.

[ar15]

What do I think about Mao?

-That he was a murderous tyrant worthy of his place in hell.

[Hongjian]

What do I think about Mao?

-That he was a murderous tyrant worthy of his place in hell.


The hell doesent exist.

from a atheist with love. :)

[Solvent]

The hell doesent exist.

from a atheist with love. :)

So, Mao is RIP nowrofl

[Hongjian]

So, Mao is RIP nowrofl


Yeah, resting in one piece in his mao-soleum in Beijing.

Someday I will visit it to make peace with him. I will tell him how much sh*t happened because of him but in the end I will bow down to his majesty's corpse to end it for good.
Of course I will speak German, so that no guard can understand me. Would be pretty bad if they do, I guess. rofl

[Ordie]

So, Mao is RIP nowrofl

Not really.

He's in a glass coffin injected and formed with stuffing every other week or so.

http://www.morningsun.org/art/3257_r.jpg

[Ordie]

Yeah, resting in one piece in his mao-soleum in Beijing.

Someday I will visit it to make peace with him. I will tell him how much sh*t happened because of him but in the end I will bow down to his majesty's corpse to end it for good.
Of course I will speak German, so that no guard can understand me. Would be pretty bad if they do, I guess. rofl

I farted loudly when I walked passed him.

[Solvent]

Yeah, resting in one piece in his mao-soleum in Beijing.

Someday I will visit it to make peace with him. I will tell him how much sh*t happened because of him but in the end I will bow down to his majesty's corpse to end it for good.
Of course I will speak German, so that no guard can understand me. Would be pretty bad if they do, I guess. rofl

Haha, good luck on that.

It's funny that the conclusion ends up like this.

What do you think of Mao? He is rest in peace now.

[Solvent]

I farted loudly when I walked passed him.

Lucky you. You know your ass could be chopped off because of that.

[Ordie]

Lucky you. You know your ass could be chopped off because of that.

To a Chinese yes

To a foreign tourist no.

[Solvent]

To a Chinese yes

To a foreign tourist no.

Chinese chopped from behind, foreign tourist cut from front. Doesn't look good eitherrofl

[gaijinsamurai]

Perhaps you foreigners cud never understand and appreciate the Chinese ambivalent feelings towards Mao!:|

Point taken, Shuimo (and Hongjian too!). As a foreigner, it's not my place to say who the Chinese should or shouldn't revere, and it would be inappriopriate of me to impose my cultural bias into something that's a matter for the Chinese.

It's just difficult for those of us in the West to understand.

And I agree with you, Hollis, in regards to the necessity, at times, for someone who is tough, rather than "nice" to lead a country in difficult times. I look at Russia/USSR in the 1940's and today as an example. I doubt that a leader like Alexander Kerensky could have stopped Hitler in WWII, and perhaps a strong man like Putin is what Russia needs today.

But a leader doesn't have to be a psychopath to get things accomplished or defend his people.

[11 Bravo]

The hell doesent exist.

from a atheist with love. :)

Well if hell does not exhist by your thought pattern I'd say good old mass murderer mao boy is in a bad place where his eternal afterlife is not a paradise but a pain filled void that eternity will see him though with. How's that ... you can guess I'm not a mass murderer fanboy.

[Hongjian]

Well if hell does not exhist by your thought pattern I'd say good old mass murderer mao boy is in a bad place where his eternal afterlife is not a paradise but a pain filled void that eternity will see him though with. How's that ... you can guess I'm not a mass murderer fanboy.


just say that he's dead and you wished him to die. this would be sufficient. :)

the death is the absolute end of everything after all. there's nothing after it.

[Lugiahua]

Mao? I only knew from my father that Mao confiscated all my family property and forced them on the exile to US. or maybe I should thank him because I am an US citizen today?

[matthew.manhorn]

X2.

The revolution against Chaing and the Nationalists was probably necessary and inevitable, but China would have been far better off if someone other than Mao had led them after 1949.

There were a lot of decent, well-intentioned Communists in the Revolution, whose ideals were betrayed by Mao. Unfortunately, many didn't realize what a monster he was until it was way too late.

What I fail to understand is how, after alll the misery, death, and suffering he caused, why his portrait still presides over Tienannmen Square.

X2, surprised to see such an objective yet insightful view regarding China from a foreigner. You're awesome Gaijin.

To Shuimo: You're an embarrassment to us Chinese for sympathizing a tyrant like Mao. The reason why my grandparents fled to Hong Kong was all because of him.

[Hollis]

There is a old quote that goes something like this, "Among the saddest of pen and words are these that might have been." China is much better off today, then it was in 1930's by a long way. It would have been a great thing if all the the world not just China, traveled the noble, better, honest, moral, correct path to be what we are today. What is more important than the past is today, today points us to the direction in which we will go.

[Derbedeu]

What I fail to understand is how, after alll the misery, death, and suffering he caused, why his portrait still presides over Tienannmen Square.

Because Mao established the PRC. To dismiss Mao would be to dismiss the foundation of the PRC, which could not be done without jeopardizing those in power today. Just my 2 cents...

[Derbedeu]

There is a old quote that goes something like this, "Among the saddest of pen and words are these that might have been." China is much better off today, then it was in 1930's by a long way. It would have been a great thing if all the the world not just China, traveled the noble, better, honest, moral, correct path to be what we are today. What is more important than the past is today, today points us to the direction in which we will go.

You really are "on top of a Mountain with a bowl of rice contemplating something really Important."

What you said is very sage-like. :)

[Solvent]

X2, surprised to see such an objective yet insightful view regarding China from a foreigner. You're awesome Gaijin.

To Shuimo: You're an embarrassment to us Chinese for sympathizing a tyrant like Mao. The reason why my grandparents fled to Hong Kong was all because of him.

Shuimo was expressing his point. He is not representing Chinese people. Meanwhile, there is no need for you to represent Chinese to feel embarrassed.
As many comments said in the thread, Mao is complicated figure. However, it's normal for you to think of that considering where are you from.

[Shuimo]

Hey, guys!
Our Beijing has nice fine weather today, the very weather we desperately need for prarading!
The sun is rising in the east!
Perpahs it indicates the heaven is smiling at the Middle Kingdom for another 60 grand years?

[Hongjian]

Hey, guys!
Our Beijing has nice fine weather today, the very weather we desperately need for prarading!
The sun is rising in the east!
Perpahs it indicates the heaven is smiling at the Middle Kingdom for another 60 grand years?



30 more minutes to go!!!!

[Solvent]

I am watching the online live right now.

They surely like the music from Pirates of Caribbean, haha

[Derbedeu]

Where can one see footage of the parade online (preferably an English site)?

[Hongjian]

Where can one see footage of the parade online (preferably an English site)?


http://zhibo.cctv.com/cctv9/bq/index.shtml

only on the official CCTV site.

[CG51]

Where can one see footage of the parade online (preferably an English site)?

Yes, anyone with a working link?

[Solvent]

http://zhibo.cctv.com/Americas/cdn/index.shtml

Try this one, use IE

[Shuimo]

Where can one see footage of the parade online (preferably an English site)?
You can log onto CCTV at www.cctv.com (http://www.cctv.com)
There is an all-English channel, CCTV9!
They wud surely broadcast it live on online!rofl

[Derbedeu]

http://zhibo.cctv.com/cctv9/bq/index.shtml

only on the official CCTV site.


http://zhibo.cctv.com/Americas/cdn/index.shtml

Try this one, use IE


Thanks to both!

[CG51]

http://zhibo.cctv.com/Americas/cdn/index.shtml

Try this one, use IE

Thanks, so it starts in 30 minutes? OK, I am on a work laptop, there is no **** on this link is there?

[Solvent]

Thanks, so it starts in 30 minutes? OK, I am on a work laptop, there is no **** on this link is there?

Start at 7:00 US time. I am afraid that there is no **** on it.:)

Here we go, Pirates again.

[gaijinsamurai]

There is a old quote that goes something like this, "Among the saddest of pen and words are these that might have been." China is much better off today, then it was in 1930's by a long way. It would have been a great thing if all the the world not just China, traveled the noble, better, honest, moral, correct path to be what we are today. What is more important than the past is today, today points us to the direction in which we will go.

Well said, Hollis.

[CG51]

The link that Solvent gave is up and running. I don't speak Chinese but want to watch the parade. If it's anything like the Olympis then it should be quite a show.

[AroundTheCorner]

Communist bastard..

/word

[Hongjian]

The link that Solvent gave is up and running. I don't speak Chinese but want to watch the parade. If it's anything like the Olympis then it should be quite a show.


it's even directed by Zhang Yimou - who did the Olympic Ceremony


http://zhibo.cctv.com/cctv9/bq/index.shtml


also: english commentary

[Shuimo]

I am so happy the heavenly lord is so generous to Beijing today, now with the sun beaming its tens of thousands of rays most resplendently! (Just think of the past few days of cloudy and misty weather, it even rained last night)
Oh, my goodness!
Thank Heavens!(*^__^*)

[Soldat_Américain]

Let's look at this. Revering Mao and accepting him is like revering Stalin or Hitler. Stalin was for a certain amount of time but as more of his brutality became evident his body was removed from Lenin's Mausoleum in 1961. And no Shuimo..saying he is a victim of his own policies as saying Hitler and Stalin were victims.

[Hollis]

Let's look at this. Revering Mao and accepting him is like revering Stalin or Hitler. Stalin was for a certain amount of time but as more of his brutality became evident his body was removed from Lenin's Mausoleum in 1961. And no Shuimo..saying he is a victim of his own policies as saying Hitler and Stalin were victims.


Maybe see Mao more with Lenin, rather than the those other two.

[Shuimo]

JUST GEORGEOUS SOLDIERS and GEORGEOUS CITY and GEORGEOUS WEATHER!

Everybody looks georgesous!

This is the perfect day!(*^__^*) (*^__^*) ……

[gaijinsamurai]

Gotta disagree, H. A lot of Chinese died because of Mao, and he knowingly let it happen. If the Chinese people want to gloss over his crimes, that's thier business, but it doesn't make him any better.

[Hollis]

Gotta disagree, H. A lot of Chinese died because of Mao, and he knowingly let it happen. If the Chinese people want to gloss over his crimes, that's thier business, but it doesn't make him any better.


Same could be said for Lenin. It is really a mix bag, To do what he had to do, he had to be............ one way/able to do it. Often it is like surfing, to the audience it seems the surfer controls the wave, but it is the wave that controls the surfer. How much control did he have or didn't have?

[Lao Yan Qiang]

Where can one see footage of the parade online (preferably an English site)?

You can watch on channel 265 if you have the Dish network.

You've just got to love the blue camo APCs with the white wall tires.

[gaijinsamurai]

Lenin had the Romanovs, White Army officers, and Russians who would probably be a threat to the new Soviet state killed. Not good, but understandable.

Mao had people imprisoned, tortured, and killed who he thought were more charismatic or a threat to his own unlimited power. A lot of those killed were loyal Communists who had no idea why they were targeted. Also, hundreds of thousands, possibly even more than a million, were killed in the Great Leap Forward, when Mao's disasterous industrialization plans were implemented. He knew masses were starving, but turned a blind eye.

[Soldat_Américain]

HOLLiS,

I can't compare him to any of our leaders but if a president tried to enact reforms and the result was killing millions of his own people, how would he be looked at in our history? I think we'd try to blot him out.

[Hollis]

Lenin had the Romanovs, White Army officers, and Russians who would probably be a threat to the new Soviet state killed. Not good, but understandable.

Mao had people imprisoned, tortured, and killed who he thought were more charismatic or a threat to his own unlimited power. A lot of those killed were loyal Communists who had no idea why they were targeted. Also, hundreds of thousands, possibly even more than a million, were killed in the Great Leap Forward, when Mao's disasterous industrialization plans were implemented. He knew masses were starving, but turned a blind eye.



Mao had a ship of state with a billion people. Imagine yourself at the helm of change at that time with a billion people under your command.

A side thought, one of the intrinsic problem with westerners is that often there is a need to graduate a event, measure as good as evil. Not really explore the event in relation to time and necessity or workability. If I was in China at the time, who knows, Mao may have had me shot too.

Also take Mao in context to the rest of the world. In some ways China was very much alone. (Sic. Sino/Soviet conflict). In many ways Mao was also a experimenter, trying to practically apply Marxist/Leninist theory into practice. Again, review the causation of the Sino/Soviet schism over intellectual communist thought, which probably also lead the military conflict between the two countries.

[Hollis]

HOLLiS,

I can't compare him to any of our leaders but if a president tried to enact reforms and the result was killing millions of his own people, how would he be looked at in our history? I think we'd try to blot him out.


That is true, but you did not live in China with a history of about 100 Years of foreign rule, exploitation and two wars going on. Again, understand China in the 1930's.................


Regardless of anything a person learns of China, know that the Chinese will do it their way.

Example the agreement made with the Chinese Nationalist and Chine Communist when China was invaded by the Japanese. Chinese unity was more important than vengeance, justice, and winning the civil war.

[CG51]

You can watch on channel 265 if you have the Dish network.

You've just got to love the blue camo APCs with the white wall tires.

It took about 40 minutes to get rolling but I like so far. Who are the chicks in maroon dresses?

[BorisA]

I read once in high quality nuddie magazine with scientific background that he had a commie harem with nice polit-virgins. He believed making love to them would expand his life-span...and he never brushed his teeth and terrorized with his bad breath his enviroment. Cool info he? wootrofl

[Solvent]

:-( CCTV sucks as usual. Probably **** is only thing they should make, since making **** doesn't need brain.

[CG51]

:-( CCTV sucks as usual. Probably **** is only thing they should make, since making **** doesn't need brain.

Got no problem here with the link you gave and I'm in Florida. Every once in a while there is a little lag but for the most part the video is smooth. It has been very good and very colorful so far.

[Solvent]

Got no problem here with the link you gave and I'm in Florida. Every once in a while there is a little lag but for the most part the video is smooth. It has been very good and very colorful so far.

I am glad you liked it. I have to say I am a bit disappointed. Wait to see how the edited version looks. Cheers

[Derbedeu]

I liked the parade, but it could have been more concise, if that makes any sense. Either way, congrats to the Chinese people.

[Shuimo]

I liked the parade, but it could have been more concise, if that makes any sense. Either way, congrats to the Chinese people.


Thank you!rofl
Today is the pefect day for the Chinese!:)
It is just awsomely georgeous to me with tears in eyes when I saw our boys and girls can be this good!

[Gunge]

Murderous monster of millions. Revering him is like revering Hitler.

x2
i never thought the toll was in the millions til recently, ive even heard 70 million!
i know its probably not that much but he presided over some serious blood-letting

[matthew.manhorn]

Maybe see Mao more with Lenin, rather than the those other two.

Mao opposed cult of personality worshipping of him when he first became leader, and yet end up liking it like all dictators do. Mao labeled Peng De Huai (the general who had the guts lead the Chinese forces during the Korean) a criminal and tortured him to death. Which was simply what Stalin did to his people and general

Mao was simply a tragic hero who ended up being a dictator like most revolutionaries do, except that he had 1 billion + people under his disposal.

Who knows, maybe Lennin would end up being a dictator like Stalin had he lived. Maybe his early death somewhat saved him from having a false reputation.

[Connaught Ranger]

Thank you!rofl
Today is the pefect day for the Chinese!:)
It is just awsomely georgeous to me with tears in eyes when I saw our boys and girls can be this good!

Was there an "Occupation of Tibet Military Section" in the parade.p-)

[Hongjian]

Was there an "Occupation of Tibet Military Section" in the parade.p-)


not in the military part. but in the civilian part there was a Tibet-themed float.

with their monastery, the railway and lots of girls dancing for teh great communist overloards :)

[lzdbb]

I don't think his legacy is a good one. Had he died in 1950, he probably would have been respected not just in China, but also all over the world as bringing China out of the darkness that was 1912-1949. Personally, I admire Sun Yat-sen and Deng Xiaoping. I can't say the same about Mao. Like I stated in another thread, he was a great revolutionary leader, a horrible national leader, and not exactly an upright person when it came to his personal life.
Sun Yat-sen?
he is a US citizen, and he is a dummy of Russia. He is a guy who want to sell the northeast, Taiwan to Japan.

[TR1]

I think Mao had gross teeth.

[TR1]

Thank you!rofl
Today is the pefect day for the Chinese!:)
It is just awsomely georgeous to me with tears in eyes when I saw our boys and girls can be this good!
Well if they had really been practicing for months like popeye posted its not THAT impressive. p-)

[Ordie]

I think Mao had gross teeth.

At the end of his life, he had green teeth and gums full of pus.


The Emperor Has No Clothes: Mao's Doctor Reveals the Naked Truth


November/December 1994
John E. Wills, Jr.
John E. Wills, Jr., a Professor of History at the University of Southern California, has written widely on the history of Chinese foreign relations. His most recent book is Mountain of Fame: Portraits in Chinese History.Dr. Li Zhisui met Mao Zedong for the first time on April 25, 1955, late in the afternoon. The doctor had finished a busy day in his clinic, but Mao was just starting his day's work. On a wooden bed beside his indoor swimming pool, the chairman lounged "naked beneath an open terry-cloth robe . . . his lower body loosely covered by a towel." Dr. Li was impressed by Mao's healthy appearance: broad shoulders, a big belly, thick black hair, "skin like butter, delicate, and hairless." Dr. Li, summoned by the awesome and remote Great Leader, was nervous, but Mao soon put him at ease, while at the same time impressing him with his wisdom. Mao made it clear that Dr. Li's education in missionary schools would be no bar to his holding a position of the greatest trust under the chairman. He reminded the doctor that the great second emperor of the Tang Dynasty, Li Shimin, had made a general with a questionable background one of his closest and most trusted aides.
Li became Mao's personal physician, and there were only a few periods between that first interview and Mao's death on September 9, 1976, when he was not immediately responsible for his medical care. There were many times when Dr. Li wanted out, but escape would have labeled him a counterrevolutionary, dooming him and his family. Dr. Li has turned his 21 years of thralldom and anxiety into a book that will absorb anyone interested in China or in the total corruption of total power.
Some of the characteristics of Mao's inner circle, which Dr. Li recounts in great detail, were foreshadowed in that first interview. Mao was frequently charming when meeting someone for the first time; his willfulness and urge for total control became apparent only after the individual was irretrievably enmeshed in the inner circle. He had no use for the proprieties of dress, work hours, and leisure time observed by others. People came to Mao when he was ready to talk or work, at any hour of the day or night. These peculiarities, Mao's reference to Li Shimin, and his indoor swimming pool - an amazing luxury in 1950s China - were Dr. Li's first indications that he was dealing with someone who cast himself as a revolutionary leader but whose conduct and attitudes reminded one of China's emperors.
Dr. Li would later learn more about Mao's "imperial" attitudes and witness firsthand Mao's voracious appetite for a never-ending stream of eager young women. Dr. Li's brief testimony on this subject in a 1993 television documentary, much milder than the details in the book, produced furious condemnations from Chinese government spokesmen and such harsh pressure on Hong Kong that the program was not broadcast there. The current Chinese leadership, after all, is a product of the same basic political order that produced and sustained Mao. Its senior leaders were part of his high command and saw a great deal of him. If the Chinese people could become any more cynical about their leadership, Dr. Li's revelations might provide a push in that direction. His book is sure to arouse a good deal of controversy, with the powers that be in the People's Republic doing everything they can to impugn its authenticity and accuracy.
To be sure, this work reaches us in a way that leaves something to be desired. Dr. Li says he recorded his experiences regularly, but then destroyed his notes during the Cultural Revolution, fearing dire consequences if they were discovered. In 1977 he rewrote his notes from memory. He says his memories of Mao's words and deeds are extraordinarily vivid because his life depended on them at the time. No doubt having kept a contemporary record strengthened the memories he would later rely on. But the tendency to rewrite history grows stronger over time. There is no mention of the location or accessibility to scholars of Dr. Li's notes or his original manuscript. Still, there is no obvious reason to doubt that Dr. Li is genuine and that his book represents a reasonable effort to record his experiences. Highly reputable scholars of China, Andrew J. Nathan and Anne F. Thurston, helped edit the book; other eminent scholars have had a chance to review the English text before publication. Dr. Li is least surprising, and his information is most likely to be derivative or unreliable, on larger political events and famous struggles within the high command. For details on these, and for much about Mao's character and private life, he probably will remain our only or best source.
THE LAST EMPEROR
It is not surprising that Dr. Li thought Mao's conduct imperial: he lived in isolation, shared his bed with many young women, and traveled around the nation to luxury villas in a great cocoon of guards and private trains. Dr. Li is in general not judgmental about the endless parade of young women in Mao's bed, citing the Daoist practice of using *** for longevity. But he was shocked by Mao's lack of concern about transmitting a ******l infection from one woman to another. Far more insight into the pathologies of the inner circle is provided by his many accounts of the flattery and servility that surrounded the chairman; his description of these traits in the widely respected Zhou Enlai will upset many in China, if they ever have a chance to read it. Especially horrifying is his picture of the vast Potemkin village of perfectly planted fields full of peasant women dressed in red and green, with village blast furnaces smoking everywhere, as the chairman's train traveled south in the first autumn of the Great Leap Forward. Dr. Li describes a leader who has lost touch with reality and confesses that he himself was caught up in the enthusiasm. As millions died in the famines brought on by the Great Leap policies, Mao acknowledged it by occasionally abstaining from eating meat.
Also of considerable interest in explaining the perverse twists of the Cultural Revolution are Dr. Li's descriptions of Mao's growing paranoia, especially his fear of being poisoned, and of Mao's wife, Jiang Qing, a neurotic hypochondriac who was impossible to deal with, but who strikingly improved in health and attitude as she began to take a leading role in the Cultural Revolution.
Mao can be seen playing cat-and-mouse with his opponents, letting them put out documents he had not approved so that he could attack them later. Dr. Li testifies that Mao, citing the tradition of using distant foreigners against those close at hand, had begun to talk about improving relations with the United States as early as 1969, at the height of the tensions with the Soviet Union.
HISTORY BUFF OR BLUFF?
Mao's reference to Li Shimin in his first interview with Dr. Li was far from accidental. The chairman was obsessed with Chinese history. In 1936 Mao told American journalist Edgar Snow that when he was a boy he loved to hear tales of the heroes of the Three Kingdoms period from the old men of his village. Certainly Mao's penchant for bold action and heroic rhetoric could have been inspired by those great heroes. But many Chinese heroes, including Li Shimin, were admired for their ability to listen to their ministers. In their imperial lives lies another strand of the Chinese heritage: the moral glamour of the selfless, earnest minister, hoping to be given power to do what he knew was right, always ready to remonstrate fearlessly when the emperor was straying from the path of Confucian righteousness.
Mao's tolerance for independent advice, however, was limited. On one occasion the chairman became fascinated with the history of a vigorous reformer, a mid-Ming Dynasty official named Hai Rui, who was dismissed after repeatedly condemning abuses of power at the imperial court. Mao was attracted by Hai Rui's selflessness and the ideal of the honest official, but he himself was unwilling to hear any criticism. Too many people saw a parallel between the Ming emperor's dismissal of Hai Rui and Mao's dismissal of the frankly critical Marshal Peng Dehuai in 1959. So powerful was the parallel that a leading scholar in Ming history, Wu Han, became one of the first targets of the Cultural Revolution because he had written a play about Hai Rui.
The Chinese political tradition is full of warnings that Mao did not want to hear: against ruthless centralization of power, against pushing ahead with a policy when the best advisers oppose it. Since these ideals ran counter to his aim of transforming China by revolution, he ignored them. Although Mao's fascination with China's past predated his revolutionary zeal, it was subordinate to or at least distorted by it. Dr. Li offers fascinating new evidence on this point, recounting Mao's praise for Emperor Yang of the Sui Dynasty, Empress Wu of the Tang Dynasty (the only woman ever to sit on the Dragon Throne in her own name), the notorious first emperor of Qin, and Zhou, the last king of the Shang Dynasty. Despite the traditional negative judgments of all four, modern students would have some sympathy with Mao's views of at least three of them as important and partly effective builders and wielders of central power, but it is hard to see more in the praise of Zhou than willful reversal of a traditional verdict. The first emperor of Qin, in particular, is credited by many modern nationalists with a key contribution to what they regard as China's natural or essential condition of political unity.
One should, however, beware the tendency to explain Mao's conduct and attitudes by pointing to continuities with the emperors of the old order. Leninism has produced grotesque leader cults in societies with political heritages as diverse as those of Russia, Cuba, Cambodia, Romania, and China. Iraq, Syria, Uganda, and others have had their own share of dictators without much help from Leninism. The cultural sources of glorification and abuse of authority in the modern world are diverse indeed, and some of them are endemic and recurring pathologies of the nation-building process.
DO MEN MAKE HISTORY?
Dr. Li's vivid portrait of the corruption and hypocrisies of Mao's inner circle is an important document for every student of Chinese politics. One should be careful, however, not to rely too heavily on this highly personal portrait to explain the immense and wrenching political changes of contemporary China. Western writing on China between the 1940s and 1976 focused on "Mao's China." Few took into account the political realities not under Mao's control. In the book's introduction, Nathan writes that "no other leader in history . . . inflicted such a catastrophe on his nation." This is probably true if one counts victims, but it is not likely that the proportion of victims to the whole population was as high as that of Pol Pot or the nameless machete-wielders of Rwanda. "Politics in a dictatorship," Nathan continues, "begins in the personality of the dictator." While China was certainly shaped by Mao's personality, an approach that emphasizes the personal over the political seems to trivialize the patriotism, idealism, savagery, careerism, longing for discipline and meaning, and hope for a more comfortable life that shaped the politics of the People's Republic.
Dr. Li was an eyewitness to Mao's famous swims in China's rivers. Despite pleas from the doctor, who worried about the dangerous currents, sewage, and parasites, Mao insisted on them. In doing so, he demonstrated that he was in charge and that there was nothing to fear if one just plunged in. Once in the water his fat helped keep him afloat, while his entourage of guards and worried courtiers simply floated along with the current.
Water is an important symbol in Chinese culture. It associates human wisdom with making use of the tendency of water to flow downhill, cutting channels so that a flood can drain instead of trying to dam it up, diving into the whirlpool below a waterfall and going with the flow to come up safe. Mao's conduct as a swimmer was in this great tradition, but he too often forgot its lessons in his politics, breasting the currents of political resistance and human inclination, acting like the Lord of the River in the Daoist masterpiece Zhuang Zi, who thought himself the master of all splendor and power until the river carried him into the unfathomable vastness of the North Sea.
Source:http://www.foreignaffairs.com/print/50563

[Derbedeu]

Sun Yat-sen?
he is a US citizen, and he is a dummy of Russia. He is a guy who want to sell the northeast, Taiwan to Japan.

CCP seems to have no problem venerating the guy.

[Shuimo]

CCP seems to have no problem venerating the guy.

That has a lot to do with seeking re-unification with Taiwan I should say!

[Ordie]

A revolution in thinking for Chinese athlete

Basketball opened Kai Chen's eyes to civil liberties. Now a U.S. citizen, he focuses on anti-communist protest.

By Ching-Ching Ni
October 5, 2009




For years Kai Chen enjoyed the good life of a professional basketball player in China, playing on the national team and traveling around the world.

But he was never happy representing a government that he said tore his family apart and was responsible for millions of deaths in his country. So after Chen married U.S. foreign exchange student Susan Gruenegerg in 1981, the couple moved to the United States to start a new life together.

Chen eventually earned a degree in political science from UCLA and has since become a passionate anticommunist crusader. His main target: the legacy of Mao Tse-tung, leader of the People's Republic of China from 1949 until his death in 1976.

Last week, Chen led a group of demonstrators at the Nixon Presidential Library and Museum in Yorba Linda in calling for the removal of a bronze statue of Mao, part of a permanent World Leaders exhibit featuring 10 former heads of state and government.

"I'm grateful to Nixon. Without Nixon opening China, how could I have met my wife?" said Chen, 56, who has written a book about his life under communist rule that details how his family were victims of purges. "But Mao has nothing to do with freedom and people's happiness and everything to do with tyranny, power and atrocity."

As part of his campaign, Chen has called for the removal of Mao posters at restaurants and other establishments around Los Angeles and has set up a website to promote his cause. He also ran a 10-city marathon to protest the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

But some of Chen's friends are concerned that he has taken his crusade too far. They say his views of China are stuck in the past and do not reflect recent changes there and how the country continues to transform itself into a 21st century global power.

"As an old friend and teacher, I think he has gone a little out on a limb," said Richard Baum, director of the UCLA Center for Chinese Studies. "I don't feel comfortable endorsing these rather extreme ideas and gimmicks."

But fellow activists said they found Chen's outspokenness refreshing.

"Most people who support human rights and democracy see him as great," said Ann Lau, chairwoman of the Los Angeles Visual Artist Guild, a nonprofit group supporting free speech. "We certainly need more people like him."

Saved by the ball

When he was 7, Chen's parents were branded counter-revolutionaries and exiled to Liuhe, a small town in northern China. He stayed behind in Beijing with three older brothers and an ailing grandmother.

By the time Chen was 16 he had reached his full height of 6 feet 7. But he saw no future beyond joining his parents in exile, which he eventually did.

Basketball saved him.

The tallest of three brothers, Chen was recruited by a local grain depot wanting to start its own team. Soon the three were the talk of the town.

They didn't know it at the time, but the success of Ping-Pong diplomacy in introducing China to the outside world in the early 1970s had inspired the government to do the same with basketball. Recruiters were scouring the country looking for potential players for the national team.

Chen was the only one of his brothers chosen and was sent to a training camp in Beijing.

But officials determined that he could not be trusted to represent the country abroad because of his family's history, and he was ordered back to Liuhe. Chen ran away but was caught and placed in solitary confinement.

Once he returned home, Chen enlisted in the army in Shenyang, near North Korea, because he knew it had its own basketball team. In the military, he dug ditches and built dams in freezing weather while enduring near-starvation.

A serious illness and the death of a friend convinced Chen that basketball was his best hope for a better life. "My goal was to get back on the national team," Chen said. "This goal was not for basketball. It was for freedom" to choose his own fate.

He approached his training with new determination and soon became one of his team's best players.

During an exhibition match in Shenyang, the elite August First national military team saw the talented young forward in action. "They saw me and said, 'We've got to get this guy,' " Chen said.

It was 1973. Nixon had made his historic trip to China. Mao was near death.

With the August First team, Chen traveled outside the country for the first time. During a trip to Mexico City, Chen met members of a U.S. team.

"I immediately felt a kinship with the Americans," he said. "They were free. They didn't have fear in their eyes. They just spoke their minds. That was tremendously attractive to me."

In 1978, Chen joined the Chinese national team and traveled to the U.S. on a five-city tour that included Los Angeles and Washington, D.C., where team members visited the White House. After that, Chen was ready to quit.

"I no longer wanted to be a tool," he said.

Back to school

Back in China, his next goal was to get an education, so he enrolled in school. That's how he met Gruenegerg, who spoke Chinese and played on the Beijing University basketball team. Soon they were married and moved to the U.S.

Chen's mother and father eventually immigrated to the this country too. The last time Chen went back to China was to visit his brother in 1989.

During that trip, thousands of protesters gathered in Tiananmen Square in Beijing to call for democratic reforms. The demonstration ended in a deadly crackdown.

The experience cemented Chen's views of his country. "I am not going back to China again until the communist government is gone," he said.

Soon afterward he applied for U.S. citizenship. "I am happy here," he said. "In China, I was dying on the inside."

Asked about the economic and social changes China has undergone in recent years, Chen said the country had no choice. "China had to open the door to the outside world for the regime to survive," he said. "They did not do this for the people."

But Philip Young, 48, former president of the Chinese American Citizens Alliance, said that although he agrees that Mao is a controversial figure, China cannot remain a prisoner of its past.

"China just celebrated the 60th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic, and it just so happens this is the 30th anniversary of my arrival in America," he said. "I was able to look back and compare the changes between now and then. Ideologies put aside, China is completely different now. Whether you call it communism, capitalism, market economy, these are political terms. The fact of the matter is, China has changed and for the better."

Source:http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-kai-chen5-2009oct05,0,7625343,print.story

[deagle]

mao did some bad things to do some good things, or good things in a bad way ?

[Smiling_Wolf]

Mao's regime robbed my mother of some of the best years of her life. She lost a lot of dear friends too.

Down with Mao.

[PeterG]

What do you think of Mao Zedong?
Do you know anything about his thougts?
What do you think is the biggest legacy of Mao to China more than 30 years after his death?










I think he was a narcissistic psycopath that could rival Stalin and Hitler in illusions of his own greatness, and he was like them, an evil man through and through. Stupid, vile and in all respects a horrible man.

His idiocy, lunacy and purely black soul, cost the lives of tens of millions of chinese.
He was a communist as well, and i hate communists.

[Shuimo]

I think he was a narcissistic psycopath that could rival Stalin and Hitler in illusions of his own greatness, and he was like them, an evil man through and through. Stupid, vile and in all respects a horrible man.

His idiocy, lunacy and purely black soul, cost the lives of tens of millions of chinese.
He was a communist as well, and i hate communists.


Well, I trust that Mao never intended to kill his compatriots!
But his failed policies did cause millions of deaths!rofl

Here in Lhasa I talked to some Tibetans of the older generation on Mao! Wow, a Tibetan couple in their 70s told me that they even received audience with Mao in the 1960s! (I took my hats off to them!) It was an unbelievable talk with them!

They still hold them in such awe and reverence! rofl I believe them!

[Ordie]

My neighbors father was a KMT general during the war. Zhu De was his teacher in the academy and was his family's house guest when he was a child.