Bias exposed in Turkish education

[Aor]

From the Turkish Hurriet daily news


Bias exposed in Turkish education


A research project involving graduate students training to be teachers came up with results that showed the meaning of the term “biased” changes when the subject is the Turks themselves.
The students thought texts that consider the British “hardworking,” “brave,” “religious” and “always right” were biased, and commented on the British being “liars,” “filthy” and “deceitful.”
The study, called “Evaluating Us Through Others,” was conducted by associate professor Yücel Kabapnar from Marmara University and was published with the subtitle: “The opinions of education students on the methodology of history and the educational purpose of the lesson.” The names of the two universities where the 140 graduate student are studying were kept secret due to ethical reasons.
The texts copied from Turkish schoolbooks were altered as such: “Turk,” “Muslim” and “raiders” became “British,” “Christian” and “knights.” The texts were signed by imaginary British writers and the education students were asked to evaluate them through “the attributes of history and social studies and the feelings and thoughts they invoke.” The altered texts are as follows:
“The Christian religion has added to the strength of the already present courage of the British. The British Army was always ready for war; it did not know the meaning of being tired. It was reported by eastern writers that a hundred British were louder than ten thousand Muslims. The courage of the British soldiers was above all estimation.
“The British are the bravest people history has ever known. Through this bravery, our nation has founded great countries that have important places in history and took many peoples under its dominion. The British people hold their independence dear. They fear no one when their independence is in danger.”
“The British dislike cheating and lies. They do not cheat others. They are forthcoming. They are not afraid to say what they believe is right. They are respectful towards others’ rights. They are honest to their enemies as well as their friends because they believe in the necessity of being fair.”
“The British nation believes being clean comes from Christianity. Through this faith, they pay importance to the cleanliness of their surroundings, home and workplace. They pay importance to the cleanliness of the surroundings as much as the cleanliness of the body.”
Results showed that 60 percent of the education students did not think the texts were suitable for history education and said such texts should not be put in schoolbooks. Among the reasons for disliking the texts, students said they were “completely biased;” “prejudiced toward other nations;” “putting their nation in a higher place;” “insulting to Muslims;” and “extreme on the contents of religious or nationalist opinions.” Only 14 of the 140 education students said they disliked the texts because they were similar to the understanding of Turkish schoolbooks.
On the other hand, 27.2 percent of the education students said that such texts are normal in schoolbooks. Some made statements such as: “The students we are training will be the soldiers of the future. That is why it is normal for a nation to exaggerate things and put itself in a higher place.” When told that the texts were actually from Turkish history books, some said those qualities are not suitable for the British, but are suitable for Turks.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=it-is-biased-when-comes-to-the-british-2009-09-28

I reverted the altered text to the original.

Have a look what the youth of Turkey is being taught from early age.


The Muslim religion has added to the strength of the already present courage of the Turks. The Turkish Army was always ready for war; it did not know the meaning of being tired. It was reported by eastern writers that a hundred Turks were louder than ten thousand Christians. The courage of the Turkish soldiers was above all estimation.
“The Turks are the bravest people history has ever known. Through this bravery, our nation has founded great countries that have important places in history and took many peoples under its dominion. The Turkish people hold their independence dear. They fear no one when their independence is in danger.”
“The Turks dislike cheating and lies. They do not cheat others. They are forthcoming. They are not afraid to say what they believe is right. They are respectful towards others’ rights. They are honest to their enemies as well as their friends because they believe in the necessity of being fair.”
“The Turkish nation believes being clean comes from Islam. Through this faith, they pay importance to the cleanliness of their surroundings, home and workplace. They pay importance to the cleanliness of the surroundings as much as the cleanliness of the body.Since everything posted by Greeks is considered "anti-Turkish" and fame bait be aware this is taken from a Turkish secular newspaper and the texts from the official Turkish school books.

[TurkishDefense]

They fear no one when their independence is in danger

thats true.

[LineDoggie]

But it was still posted as Flame Bait, Turkish paper or not......

[Lov3ll]

Theres bias in all education no matter which country.

[4X4Driver]

Theres bias in all education no matter which country.


Exactly!

I'm sure the greek education is no different..esp regarding the Turks... (please say it isn't so ) :)

[saladin]

Well this is military forum so I will not comment on the bias whengreeks crying and changing their school books back to monster turks (true story recently there was an out cry in greece because propose changes to their history books in the schools were showing turks in more unbiased view. Guess what? They forced to ministery of education to keep old bad monsteraus turks. Those books explain why greeks blame us on every opportunity) but I will just ask which song the greek special forces sing during their education? What was the lyrics we will kill turks. Scum albaniansa. Will save istanbul. Or it was something like that.

[stelios1984]

Exactly!

I'm sure the greek education is no different..esp regarding the Turks... (please say it isn't so ) :)
I beg to differ...from what im aware of the Greek education system as of late, history lessons - of major Greek historical events too like our independence struggle - are being watered down, 'neutralised' and it is made sure that there is no bias against any people, including Turks (even though they ruled Greece for 400 years-as some wouldnt fail to remind you-they must now be presented as 'friends' or non-aggressors. who knows...maybe according to the history classes in a few years time there actually was no turkish occupation:roll:)

The point is what's happening in Greece is the exact opposite of what you say - still distortion of truth, but against Greece and her history, defintely not for it. Perhaps the government believes the views of the western 'neutral' observers of Greek history are more accurate than our own, despite having lived in these lands for thousands of years. It's as if we're puppets presenting the rewritten desired history accounts of another ruling state/individuals. It's as if we as a nation are not allowed to feel any pride at all for our past. This, my friends, is what is called 'sad'..

@ saladin, you truly believe that - taking into account the real history of this period - Turks can come out smelling like a rose? of course not. face it, if us Greeks ruled over Turks (& many others) for such a long period of time would 'monster' not be a suitable word for us?? (even though i really don't think you (Turks) were ever presented like that in Greek school books, not even in the past)

[4X4Driver]

I beg to differ...from what im aware of the Greek education system as of late, history lessons - of major Greek historical events too like our independence struggle - are being watered down, 'neutralised' and it is made sure that there is no bias against any people, including Turks (even though they ruled Greece for 400 years-as some wouldnt fail to remind you-they must now be presented as 'friends' or non-aggressors. who knows...maybe according to the history classes in a few years time there actually was no turkish occupation:roll:)

The point is what's happening in Greece is the exact opposite of what you say - still distortion of truth, but against Greece and her history, defintely not for it. Perhaps the government believes the views of the western 'neutral' observers of Greek history are more accurate than our own, despite having lived in these lands for thousands of years. It's as if we're puppets presenting the rewritten desired history accounts of another ruling state/individuals. It's as if we as a nation are not allowed to feel any pride at all for our past. This, my friends, is what is called 'sad'..

EDIT: so saladin, you truly believe that - taking into account the real history of this period - Turks can come out smelling like a rose? of course not. face it, if us Greeks ruled over Turks (& many others) for such a long period of time would 'monster' not be a suitable word for us?? (even though i really don't think you (Turks) were ever presented like that in Greek school books, not even in the past)

Thank you for this opportunity :)

In the Greek case, the pupils are thought to be intolerant of other nations and ethnic groups (outside and within Greece). The Greek educational system teaches them and makes them believe that the Greeks are superior to all others; that the Greeks are the direct descendent of the illustrious ancient Greeks, who are said to be the greatest civilization of ancient times and the point of departure of Western civilization; and that the Greeks (presumably the ancient Greeks) are the creators of all major human values with an incomparable contribution to world culture. Greek students are also taught that their nation is more than 3000 years old. They do not recognize the well-known fact that nationhood is a very recent phenomenon in human history and that hardly any Greek nation or people existed in the classical ancient Greek cultural-linguistic milieu of antagonistic city-states. Again the attempt at historical depth is characteristic of most national historical narratives, but the Greek case is one of the most extreme, comparable only to the Israeli or Ethiopian cases. Furthermore it is deeply held and provides the Greeks of today with one of the most glorious myths ever conceived. It gives rise to self-esteem but also to arrogance and haughtiness towards all others.

Another masterful stoke of the Greek national historical narrative is the fusion of two directly opposed movements and belief systems, namely the spirit of ancient Greek philosophy and culture (which remained alive in some peripheral intellectual and elite quarters of the Byzantine Empire) with its prime historical enemy, Christianity (notably Orthodox Christianity) and the theocratic Byzantium (which regarded itself as the state of the Christian world in its entirety) which was virulently anti-Greek (Greek being defined as heathen and infidel). In addition young Greeks are taught something even more far-fetched: that they have no relation or intermingling and cross-fertilization whatsoever with any other culture, nation or ethnic group in their vicinity. They end up regarding themselves as standing stand alone, unique, aloof, apart and well above all the rest!
All this is deeply ingrained and remains valid for most adult Greek individuals (e.g. schoolteachers, administrators, politicians, diplomats even several academics which should have known better) who do not bother to check whether the information handed over to them in school bears correspondence to historical reality. After all it is such a soothing collective identity for Greeks, so why bother to question it?


Alexis Heraclides (i)

Alexis Heraclides is Associate Professor of International Relations at the Panteion University in Athens



http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/200012/01207-006-trae-ath.htm

[stelios1984]

@ 4x4

I did not specifically stress that there was ever a single complete Greek state in the ancient past (although many small Greek-cultured city states and kingdoms). but it cannot be denied that Greek people have been in the area for a very long time, the minimum recognised by all sides, bias and non-bias, is around 4000 years. i believe that it is considerable longer than that, but not because i think Greeks are superior, & not because of it being indoctrinated by any education system (but by personal historical survey and research, and above all this is my personal opinion-this is however besides the point)

oh and yes. Alexis Heraclides. rofl that name rang a bell, and that 'article' excerpt you posted confirmed that the guy is a nutjob.
do you want to know more about this alexis heraclides??
'Alexis Heraclides supports MAKEDONIJA"
Alexis Heraclides supports the 'self-determination of minorities' in places they do not exist, because (clearly) Greece doesn't have enough problems already, and thus requires the existence of scum like him to propagate his 'just unbiased wisdom' and set the balance :bash:

i could find other 'works' by this clown but quite frankly im not going to waste my energy. oh, also i would like to congratulate you 4x4, by posting an article clearly written by a true "Greek" and not by an anti-hellenic propaganda journo whatsoever.

EDIT: well what do you know, it seems like your fellow countryman (who seems to be doing quite well now :)) also found that this exact same piece of propaganda was the "perfect article to reply with" with the "perfect opportunity"...just wow
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=986939&postcount=224

[4X4Driver]

@ 4x4

I did not specifically stress that there was ever a single complete Greek state in the ancient past (although many small Greek-cultured city states and kingdoms). but it cannot be denied that Greek people have been in the area for a very long time, the minimum recognised by all sides, bias and non-bias, is around 4000 years. i believe that it is considerable longer than that, but not because i think Greeks are superior, & not because of it being indoctrinated by any education system (but by personal historical survey and research, and above all this is my personal opinion-this is however besides the point)

oh and yes. Alexis Heraclides. rofl that name rang a bell, and that 'article' excerpt you posted confirmed that the guy is a nutjob.
do you want to know more about this alexis heraclides??
'Alexis Heraclides supports MAKEDONIJA"
Alexis Heraclides supports the 'self-determination of minorities' in places they do not exist, because (clearly) Greece doesn't have enough problems already, and thus requires the existence of scum like him to propagate his 'just unbiased wisdom' and set the balance :bash:

i could find other 'works' by this clown but quite frankly im not going to waste my energy. oh, also i would like to congratulate you 4x4, by posting an article clearly written by a true "Greek" and not by an anti-hellenic propaganda journo whatsoever.

Bla..bla..bla..

Hürriyet has an liberal views SFW!?


Why is it so hard to accept it? all countries has bias on such things...just like other posters (incl. myself) said :roll:



EDIT: well what do you know, it seems like your fellow countryman (who seems to be doing quite well now :)) also found that this exact same piece of propaganda was the "perfect article to reply with" with the "perfect opportunity"...just wow
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=986939&postcount=224

...and what the hell is that ^ ??

[Aor]

That was to be expected. Do not reply to provocations by Turks to derail the thread. They simply want to have it locked. Don’t be lured by them. Ignore the trolls. Comment the said article and stay on topic please. If you have anything else to discuss open a new thread. Please don't derail this one. Don't turn it into another Turks Vs Greeks thread. What the youth of Turkey is being taught is pure propaganda and brain washing. I ask any westerner if the like of any of the following things written in Turkish school books can be found in western school books. What does any of the following have to do with the science of history
The Muslim religion has added to the strength of the already present courage of the Turks. religion and nationalism on this one. No relevance to historical proof
The Turkish Army was always ready for war; it did not know the meaning of being tired. It was reported by eastern writers that a hundred Turks were louder than ten thousand Christians. The courage of the Turkish soldiers was above all estimation. glorification of the military, glorification of violence, boasting. Propaganda
The Turks are the bravest people history has ever known. propaganda
The Turkish nation believes being clean comes from Islam. propaganda of being... clean? religious propaganda
The Turks dislike cheating and lies. They do not cheat others. They are forthcoming. They are not afraid to say what they believe is right. They are respectful towards others’ rights. They are honest to their enemies as well as their friends because they believe in the necessity of being fair. propaganda once again What is even more disturbing is that though the experiment showed that the teachers believed the text to be unacceptable and ludicrous when it referred to another nation, but didn't think so when it referred to the Turks. In other words the teachers themselves are fiercely nationalistic and can't differentiate science from propaganda they willingly feed to their pupils.

[stelios1984]

...and what the hell is that ^ ??
The exact same thing you posted.

[4X4Driver]

That was to be expected. Do not reply to provocations by Turks to derail the thread.

What derailment?? so far the contributing posters said that other nations are no exception and has the same stuff..but again, as usual it was denied by the greek member. It was stated "Perfect" greek society and educadion doesn't have it...not now, not in the past.

I just proved this wasn't the case.

He should have not denied it...better yet, you should know your own situation better and don't post things that gets you in trouble.

[4X4Driver]

The exact same thing you posted.

...and so?...all Turks know your situation....no secret to us.

[Azatavrear]

Aor, you bring up a very valid point and it is much worse than that. It is not fair to the kids what they teach their young these things and it is no way comparable to any other developed Nation. Good Turks have had just enough but they are powerless. Let me give you an example that Europe is very well aware.

This is from an article back in Feb 2009

Father sues Turkish Education Ministry over Armenian 'genocide' DVD

Suna Erdem in Istanbul

A father is suing the Turkish Education Ministry for forcing his 11-year-old daughter to watch a “racist” and “disturbing” film countering claims that Ottoman Turks committed genocide against Armenians in 1915 with graphic allegations of Armenian atrocities against Turks.
The landmark case takes on what human rights activists have called the State's militarist policy of brainwashing Turkey's schoolchildren to the point of racist paranoia, aiming to preserve a nationalist status quo criticised by the European Union, which Turkey is keen to join.

“My daughter was very disturbed and frightened by the documentary and kept asking me if the Armenians had cut us up,” said Serdar Kaya, an ethnic Turkish doctor, who is suing the ministry and the child's school for inciting racial hatred.

“There are many mass graves, bones and skulls in the DVD. They have interviewed old grandads who inspire confidence and compassion. When they say things like 'They cut off his head' and 'They used it instead of firewood', that is bound to stay with the children,” Serdar Degirmencioglu, a psychologist, told the Armenian newspaper Agos when news first broke that the documentary was being shown to primary school children - including ethnic Armenian Turks.

The Education Ministry says that it has stopped the distribution of the documentary, Sari Gelin (Blonde Bride), named after an Armenian folk song. But it has apparently not recalled it and critics say that it remains part of the curriculum.
Some MPs are bringing up the case in Parliament. The education union Egitim-Sen has condemned the film, and the History Foundation has dismissed it as baseless propaganda.

Another lawsuit has been filed by a foundation set up in honour of the murdered Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink. The former editor of Agos was murdered in 2007 by a young nationalist whose links to a group of ultra-nationalists, codenamed Ergenekon, operating within the security forces and state bureaucracy are now being investigated. “In the whole of the documentary the word 'Armenian' has been used thousands of times and only with negative connotations,” the Foundation said.

Mr Dink had been one of several high-profile intellectuals, also including Orhan Pamuk, the Nobel literature laureate, and Elif Shafak, the bestselling author, who had been sued by nationalist lawyers over comments and writings alluding to the mass Armenian deaths. “You can see that all those cases were part of a project of manipulation ... There is a sick, abnormal tissue of Turkish society that is poisoned by a nationalist, racist virus,” said Ufuk Uras, an independent MP who backs Mr Kaya's case.

Many historians class the 1915 events as genocide, but even those who reject the term accept that hundreds of thousands of Armenians died when the Ottoman Turks deported them from eastern Anatolia. According to the International Association of Genocide Scholars, the death toll was “more than a million”.

“You go and kill more than a million Armenians, wipe the traces of Armenians from Anatolia, grab their property, and then show children videos about 'What the Armenians did to us' ... We are cutting these children off from the rest of the world,” said Ahmet Altan, editor of the independent newspaper Taraf.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5818155.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5818155.ece)


Also on Fox News.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,502524,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,502524,00.html)

[4X4Driver]

Hehe,,welcome to greek- armenian joint Turkish bashing folks :)

I still wonder why how we're thought bothers you greeks and armenians? (I wonder what's thought in armenian schools about us :roll:)

Looks like others are not bothered since they understand there is bias in all nations' education system. I've already posted the EU member greece's system, here is another EU member's education system.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/EPIC/documents/ICSpyrou.pdf

[BorisA]

Again the story of the evil Turks...

Even if our greco and armenian friends want to make us believe other things the Ottoman Empire, in terms of a Medieval Empire (!), was tolerant...especially compared to contemporary western empires or even empires of the beginning period of the national state (with its western imperialism). Of course there was discrimination but no forced convertion, no deportations, no mass murder. It all started with the weaking of the empire and the "import" of western ideas by the different ethnicities.

But who cares about the truth if you can use your neighbour so easy as a scapegoat for your own shortcomings...

[TurkishDefense]

i have a bias for the UPC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_E4haW1upw

[Ulytau]

I read this from the main article and some changes but especially who did this must read this book ;

Türk Korkusu,Avrupa'da Türk Düşmanlığının Kökeni '' I hope i translating true Fear from Turks,Roots of the hate aganist Turks in Europe''

Book written from the Ozlem Kumrular

She did her doctorate at Salamanca University in Spain,importance of this Spanish Empire archives are really important for history even same for the Turkish History,as i read from this book from offical archives i didnt see any difference about some parts and what saying about this article..

Anyways some parts are more realistic than about a priest who disappeared at 1453 and waiting time for finishing ceremony at AyaSofya.

[Sumadinac]

Again the story of the evil Turks...

Even if our greco and armenian friends want to make us believe other things the Ottoman Empire, in terms of a Medieval Empire (!), was tolerant...especially compared to contemporary western empires or even empires of the beginning period of the national state (with its western imperialism). Of course there was discrimination but no forced convertion, no deportations, no mass murder. It all started with the weaking of the empire and the "import" of western ideas by the different ethnicities.

But who cares about the truth if you can use your neighbour so easy as a scapegoat for your own shortcomings...

Serbs prefered life in the austrian empire than in the Ottoman Empire. No, there was no forced conversions, but a position for non-muslims that led many of them to convert. The other choice they had was to escape to mountainous regions or the Austrian Empire. And I believe it was the same for many other people.

[Loke2]

Theres bias in all education no matter which country.
Well I have never ever seen anything remotely similar to that text in Norwegian history text books. Ever.

I am sure Ting is around and will prove me wrong... :)

[stelios1984]

Anyways some parts are more realistic than about a priest who disappeared at 1453 and waiting time for finishing ceremony at AyaSofya.
wat? you must be talking about the (marble) Emperor, which wasnt/isn't even taught in history lessons (why the fvck would it be?)....and is legend/folklore (i.e false) ...from guess when..1453. so i hope next time you mention something valid about the Greek education system (which not you nor your friends have provided so far, apart from some (expected) blatant Greek-bashing junk)

[TurkishDefense]

Serbs prefered life in the austrian empire than in the Ottoman Empire. No, there was no forced conversions, but a position for non-muslims that led many of them to convert. The other choice they had was to escape to mountainous regions or the Austrian Empire. And I believe it was the same for many other people.

but serbs are still using turkish (not austrian) words...
you know... they eat baklava, they use papuc, yorgan and they also drink cay. the taste of cay is cool, isn´t it?

[Ningyou]

Ah, you silly Greeks and Turks. Don't you find it rather boring, that you keep on posting the same stuff all over again in every single topic that has something even slightly related to Turkey or Greek and then fight over it like a group of 12-year-olds?

Now, I am NOT from Greece, Turkey, nor even from southern Europe or anywhere near these two countries, I have no relatives of either nation so I'll just drop my honest opinion as an outsideer.

I have NEVER seen such a propaganda and biased super nationalistic, religiously colored and washed-with-denial posting as what I've seen from turkish users on this forum. I can't understand how turkish users even have the self respect to do silly things like that. I mean, to me it just seems to be a bit over the top.

Now, ofcourse, I will get tons of angry messages and probably plenty of turkish users come here and tell me to do all sorts of things and how much my country sucks etc. etc. but I guess I have to stick with it.

Just, both you greeks and turks... chill the **** out. You are both rather silly countries with silly military power, and no amount of forum posting, trolling and flaming will change that fact.


Being a soldier is not a profession. Every turk is born a soldier!1

[TurkishDefense]

well, close this thread.

[m.i.t]

Why do pissing races never end in MP.NET ? After several locked topics another Greek mate open an education thread about Turkey ( it seems mutual defence matters consumed ) for race .

[stelios1984]

well, close this thread.
well, why didnt you just ask from the start? rofl

[4X4Driver]

I have NEVER seen such a propaganda and biased super nationalistic, religiously colored and washed-with-denial posting as what I've seen from turkish users on this forum. I can't understand how turkish users even have the self respect to do silly things like that. I mean, to me it just seems to be a bit over the top.

Now, ofcourse, I will get tons of angry messages and probably plenty of turkish users come here and tell me to do all sorts of things and how much my country sucks etc. etc. but I guess I have to stick with it.


Naah...no need for angry messages, because we didn't deny anything in this thread, on the contrary we agreed. It was the greeks who denied such teachings in their education system, and we proved it that wasn't true. ;)

Btw,where are you from?

[Azatavrear]

Let me tell you guys something………….many Armenian youth (from the ones who are actually awake and aware of what is going on) are trying very hard to start a dialog and mutual understanding with their Turkish counterparts in today’s internet and communication technology era. There are also signs that younger Turks are becoming very curious as evident by their own attempts of interaction, as small as that may be. I personally have encouraged several Armenian kids in their attempt to open up websites that invites Turks to start dialog with each other because I believe that is the key.

I know it might be too late for some of us but they have a good chance and these kids represent our (yours/mine) future. Your Government knows this very well and sees it as a threat. They are doing everything they can at school elementary level to stop it by instilling ultra-nationalism with hate and prejudice which ruins any chance there ever was for us to reach the Turkish people, and solidifies the fact that no matter what we do there can never be any real reconciliation between the two of us, as small as that chance might have been. Armenian Government does not follow this policy and the Armenians in Diaspora are never exposed to such negative propaganda in their host country. They do however react.

Take it for what its worth guys.

[Ulytau]

wat? you must be talking about the (marble) Emperor, which wasnt/isn't even taught in history lessons (why the fvck would it be?)....and is legend/folklore (i.e false) ...from guess when..1453. so i hope next time you mention something valid about the Greek education system (which not you nor your friends have provided so far, apart from some (expected) blatant Greek-bashing junk)

Yeah when sth about Greece junk right mate?

But here cant be nothing about kind of things in Turkish books,you guys give example i give example even from some archives..

[Ningyou]

Naah...no need for angry messages, because we didn't deny anything in this thread, on the contrary we agreed. It was the greeks who denied such teachings in their education system, and we proved it that wasn't true. ;)

Btw,where are you from?

Well I do not know about Greeks and their educational system, but the greeks I know are rather mellow people and are not as nationalistic and vocal as you turkish people ;)

I'm finnishjapanese guy. And for the record, very aware of the **** Japan did back in the day, so no use to use it against me... also, one reason why I currently live in Finland ;)

[Aor]

I am rather surprised by the reaction of our Turkish friends. Nobody is refuting the facts made by the article, yet still you attack others of "Turkish bashing". Of course there is the usual excuse "everybody else is doing it". The article points out the brainwashing done in Turkish schools and the promotion of a nationalist agenda that has nothing to do with history. That is simply creating xenophobic fanatics that idolise their country based on constructed images. It doesn't challenge historical truths simply because nowhere in the said article is a single historical fact analysed or subjected to scrutiny. Instead we see one constructed stereotype after the other ingrained to the students and defended by the teachers. History is supposed to find truths and with it an understanding can be found between peoples and nations. With all the bias in the Turkish school system and its indoctrination tactics none of that takes place.

[stelios1984]

Yeah when sth about Greece junk right mate?

But here cant be nothing about kind of things in Turkish books,you guys give example i give example even from some archives..
i explained 'Alexis Heraclides brilliance before, enough said.
as for 4x4's 'discovery' about Cyprus, it wasn't even about the education system, just what people generally thought about the turkish nation. for goodness sake you cant expect to illegaly occupy and displace people from their own country and expect them not to see you as 'evil'. that's the difference...Greeks, Armenians -whoever- we haven't actually *done* anything to provoke such bias views from your public let alone your education system

[Try&die]

Ah, you silly Greeks and Turks. Don't you find it rather boring, that you keep on posting the same stuff all over again in every single topic that has something even slightly related to Turkey or Greek and then fight over it like a group of 12-year-olds?

Now, I am NOT from Greece, Turkey, nor even from southern Europe or anywhere near these two countries, I have no relatives of either nation so I'll just drop my honest opinion as an outsideer.

I have NEVER seen such a propaganda and biased super nationalistic, religiously colored and washed-with-denial posting as what I've seen from turkish users on this forum. I can't understand how turkish users even have the self respect to do silly things like that. I mean, to me it just seems to be a bit over the top.

Now, ofcourse, I will get tons of angry messages and probably plenty of turkish users come here and tell me to do all sorts of things and how much my country sucks etc. etc. but I guess I have to stick with it.

Just, both you greeks and turks... chill the **** out. You are both rather silly countries with silly military power, and no amount of forum posting, trolling and flaming will change that fact.

Can you remember the last thread, that was started by a Turk, about greece?

[Ningyou]

Nope, and I don't care about some old threads.

Back in the day, monkeys were throwing stones at each other. But it's no use brewing over it in this thread or in this subject. I don't give a damn what someone said or did before. Just behave now.

[TurkishDefense]

aor is not greek.

[Ulytau]

aor is not greek.

He is bro:|

[Try&die]

Nope, and I don't care about some old threads.

Back in the day, monkeys were throwing stones at each other. But it's no use brewing over it in this thread or in this subject. I don't give a damn what someone said or did before. Just behave now.

If you don't care, don't fvcking whine like a bitch. If you don't like it, get back to your ****hole. Nobody asked your ****.

These greeks and armenians open threads about Turkey on daily basis. When we discuss about it, people like you start whining about why we are so nationalistic and aggresive bla bla bla. If you really want this to stop, don't come to us, go to those who start these fvcking threads.

[TurkishDefense]

He is bro:|


he is finnishjapanese.

[TurkishDefense]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1p0iC6-_6U

[Ningyou]

If you don't care, don't fvcking whine like a bitch. If you don't like it, get back to your ****hole. Nobody asked your ****.

These greeks and armenians open threads about Turkey on daily basis. When we discuss about it, people like you start whining about why we are so nationalistic and aggresive bla bla bla. If you really want this to stop, don't come to us, go to those who start these fvcking threads.

Just look at yourself. Just take a really good look at yourself.

Don't you ever wonder why neutral people don't whine to greeks then? Perhaps you should get your act together and not act like a damn child. Being able to take criticiscm over ones actions is one good sign of adulthood.

[4X4Driver]

Let me tell you guys something………….many Armenian youth (from the ones who are actually awake and aware of what is going on) are trying very hard to start a dialog and mutual understanding with their Turkish counterparts in today’s internet and communication technology era. There are also signs that younger Turks are becoming very curious as evident by their own attempts of interaction, as small as that may be. I personally have encouraged several Armenian kids in their attempt to open up websites that invites Turks to start dialog with each other because I believe that is the key.

I know it might be too late for some of us but they have a good chance and these kids represent our (yours/mine) future. Your Government knows this very well and sees it as a threat. They are doing everything they can at school elementary level to stop it by instilling ultra-nationalism with hate and prejudice which ruins any chance there ever was for us to reach the Turkish people, and solidifies the fact that no matter what we do there can never be any real reconciliation between the two of us, as small as that chance might have been. Armenian Government does not follow this policy and the Armenians in Diaspora are never exposed to such negative propaganda in their host country. They do however react.

Take it for what its worth guys.

These are good thoughts on your behalf, but some parts are far from the truth.


First, there is a dichotomy of interests among the Armenian stakeholders in this dialogue. The interests of the Armenian Diaspora, even different Diaspora organizations, the American political establishment and Armenia are divergent. The increasingly boisterous voices in the Armenian Diaspora which object to the Armenian government's engagement with Turkey; the dismissal of the bilateral process by U.S. lawmakers who carry the Armenian lobby's torch in Congress; as well as the full blown campaign by all Armenian advocacy and lobby groups in furthering their legislative, educational, political and public affairs agenda in the U.S.and elsewhere, are proof of this divergence

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/recommendations-for-the-a_b_193136.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/recommendations-for-the-a_b_193136.html)

[Try&die]

Just look at yourself. Just take a really good look at yourself.

Don't you ever wonder why neutral people don't whine to greeks then? Perhaps you should get your act together and not act like a damn child. Being able to take criticiscm over ones actions is one good sign of adulthood.

Perhaps you should just stfu. If you think I am childish, how lucky for you.

[Ningyou]

Perhaps you should just stfu. If you think I am childish, how lucky for you.

Or perhaps you should shut up, and let other people discuss the topic at hand? As I noted in my first post, I was sort of expecting an angry turk to come here bashing me and calling me names and such. :)

Had to make a fool of yourself.

And oh, you Greek guys doing the same as he does - you suck too!

Now stay on topic!

[4X4Driver]

Well I do not know about Greeks and their educational system,;)



Ah...no problem mate...if you wanted, you could actually learn about it...it's only on the first page of this very same thread..;)

Its never enough to learn:)

[hulaku]

Runs

*brings popcorn*

[Ningyou]

Read it, it was rather silly piece of text indeed.

On the other hand, it was said to be of an opinion of an extremist, so...

Anyways, I'm off to bed. You guys have fun with your fights and try not to get this topic locked again ;)

[4X4Driver]

Don't you ever wonder why neutral people don't whine to greeks then? .

They do too...but seems like you don't want to know about it :)


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4442430&postcount=68

[Try&die]

Read it, it was rather silly piece of text indeed.

On the other hand, it was said to be of an opinion of an extremist, so...

Anyways, I'm off to bed. You guys have fun with your fights and try not to get this topic locked again ;)

People like you get these threads locked up. What was your first post about? Nothing to do with this thread. Only attracts offtopic reactions. Now go to sleep.

[4X4Driver]

Read it, it was rather silly piece of text indeed.

On the other hand, it was said to be of an opinion of an extremist, so...

;)

Yep...that's the usual label for anyone criticize them :)

[4X4Driver]

I am rather surprised by the reaction of our Turkish friends. Nobody is refuting the facts made by the article, yet still you attack others of "Turkish bashing". Of course there is the usual excuse "everybody else is doing it". The article points out the brainwashing done in Turkish schools and the promotion of a nationalist agenda that has nothing to do with history. That is simply creating xenophobic fanatics that idolise their country based on constructed images. It doesn't challenge historical truths simply because nowhere in the said article is a single historical fact analysed or subjected to scrutiny. Instead we see one constructed stereotype after the other ingrained to the students and defended by the teachers. History is supposed to find truths and with it an understanding can be found between peoples and nations. With all the bias in the Turkish school system and its indoctrination tactics none of that takes place.

...and I ask you a question; why does it bother you what they teach in our schools? After all, we're bunch of "barbarian hordes from central Asia"..you're the inventors of the civilization and you should worry about your own education system more.


In the Greek case, the pupils are thought to be intolerant of other nations and ethnic groups (outside and within Greece). The Greek educational system teaches them and makes them believe that the Greeks are superior to all others; that the Greeks are the direct descendent of the illustrious ancient Greeks, who are said to be the greatest civilization of ancient times and the point of departure of Western civilization; and that the Greeks (presumably the ancient Greeks) are the creators of all major human values with an incomparable contribution to world culture. Greek students are also taught that their nation is more than 3000 years old. They do not recognize the well-known fact that nationhood is a very recent phenomenon in human history and that hardly any Greek nation or people existed in the classical ancient Greek cultural-linguistic milieu of antagonistic city-states. Again the attempt at historical depth is characteristic of most national historical narratives, but the Greek case is one of the most extreme, comparable only to the Israeli or Ethiopian cases. Furthermore it is deeply held and provides the Greeks of today with one of the most glorious myths ever conceived. It gives rise to self-esteem but also to arrogance and haughtiness towards all others.

Another masterful stoke of the Greek national historical narrative is the fusion of two directly opposed movements and belief systems, namely the spirit of ancient Greek philosophy and culture (which remained alive in some peripheral intellectual and elite quarters of the Byzantine Empire) with its prime historical enemy, Christianity (notably Orthodox Christianity) and the theocratic Byzantium (which regarded itself as the state of the Christian world in its entirety) which was virulently anti-Greek (Greek being defined as heathen and infidel). In addition young Greeks are taught something even more far-fetched: that they have no relation or intermingling and cross-fertilization whatsoever with any other culture, nation or ethnic group in their vicinity. They end up regarding themselves as standing stand alone, unique, aloof, apart and well above all the rest!
All this is deeply ingrained and remains valid for most adult Greek individuals (e.g. schoolteachers, administrators, politicians, diplomats even several academics which should have known better) who do not bother to check whether the information handed over to them in school bears correspondence to historical reality. After all it is such a soothing collective identity for Greeks, so why bother to question it?


Alexis Heraclides (i)

Alexis Heraclides is Associate Professor of International Relations at the Panteion University in Athens



http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/arch...6-trae-ath.htm (http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/200012/01207-006-trae-ath.htm)

[Sumadinac]

but serbs are still using turkish (not austrian) words...
you know... they eat baklava, they use papuc, yorgan and they also drink cay. the taste of cay is cool, isn´t it?

They also eat gulash, burgers, etc. There's nothing surprising here. Every empire bring a part of its culture to the conquested territories. What's your point?

[Aor]

I have already answered you.
History is supposed to find truths and with it an understanding can be found between peoples and nations. With all the bias in the Turkish school system and its indoctrination tactics none of that takes place. yet you either choose not to read what one writes, or you are too busy derailing the thread with the usual " the biased Greeks , Armenians, Kurds, Israelis,..., Senegalese, Finns,etc they are out to get us". again I haven't seen ONE comment from you on the topic. I want an opinion on this. Do you support these biased view of history in Turkey? Do you find it positive for your country? Do you think that propaganda and xenophobic indoctrination make Turkey a better place and contribute to the country's future?

[4X4Driver]

I have already answered you. yet you either choose not to read what one writes, or you are too busy derailing the thread with the usual " the biased Greeks , Armenians, Kurds, Israelis,..., Senegalese, Finns,etc they are out to get us". again I haven't seen ONE comment from you on the topic. I want an opinion on this. Do you support these biased view of history in Turkey? Do you find it positive for your country? Do you think that propaganda and xenophobic indoctrination make Turkey a better place and contribute to the country's future?


Well...here is my honest thoughts ; The only concern I have regarding current the education system in Turkey is that the current erdogan gov't has changed a lot according to their understandings during the last 7 years of governing the counrty...they've managed to done much more serious damage to the system than the stuff in the article. Other than that, It is difficult to take the article you dug up to post here too seriously after seeing what they teach you in your schools as an EU country.

I'm just saying my honest opinion as you asked...so don't throw a fit and blamed it all on us now again..OK ? :)

[sheytanelkebir]

as a neutral observer, i'd just like to put my five cents to the discussion.

i have both turkish and greek friends, and both countries are lovely. actually in real life the greeks and turks get on really well with each other, primarily because their similarities in food, music etc... outweigh their differences.

with regards to the bias in education systems, the turkish one is very bad, and I have seen worse in countries like Iraq. Whilst countries in the EU by and large do not have such extreme bias in their curiculum, the national bias still exists via other means of propaganda that children are exposed to.

one very interesting video being the "fitna" video of geert wilders that certainly portrays the behaviour of several thousand muslim terrorists, and passes them off implicitly as the behaviour of over a billion muslims. pretty bad, in fact i would consider it in the same league as joseph goebbels' "the eternal jew".

arab education is very crude and horrendous in its propaganda against jews, crusaders, you name it, they hate it. and arabs, after all are honourable, great warriors, just and fair etc...

i have not experienced iranian or israeli education, but from the "results" I can judge that either the education or the "pop culture" or both certainly inspire a lot of overt pride and derisory view of the neighbours...

we live in a sad world unfortunately. and even the "best intentioned" and most developed countries have a large amount of negative xenophobic and bombastic "culture" in certain sections of their societies.

Of course such an undercurrent of the "other" is necessary for the functioning of a modern state and its justification for a military, borders, passports, economic-protectionism, and all the other trappings of the "modern nation state".


I will demonstrate:

I must say, that hungary is the greatest country on earth, with the largest contribution to science for their population size, the fiercest fighters (at least the Huns if not the magyars, but why quibble about semantics). Hungarian food is the best in the world, and the hungarian cake shops are envied world wide. Liszt IS the best classical musician of all time, and the treacherous austrians allowed hungary to be cut up into a tiny nation of its former self, whilst the austrians lost the war and didn't lose any lands (a few km in slovenia/italy doesn't count!!! hungary lost a lot more). the soviets were great and liberated hungary from the heinous nazis (educated during the communist period), but the russians after all are just Cinkotalyi Cigany, Cinytanyerba Pisaly (after education "pop culture"). Gypsies are odious and the slavs are inferior. Hungary bogged down the turks and with the power of bikaver kept the turkish horde at bay (at least for some time, but lets not ruin a good story). on the topic of bikaver, hungary has the BEST wines in the world. Yes. I don't want to hear anything else. ad nauseum...




finally, we can agree that the turkish education system is probably biased so massively in order to "fight" the "pop culture" that is not so hostile to the armenians and christians anymore (with the help of internet and wider knowledge of english in turkey's youth). In europe which is more civilised, the education system is very PC and squeaky clean, but only to the extent as to fight some of the "street culture" and "widespread xenophobia" in the press / society... in both instances governments are trying to do their "bidding" via education as a counter to what the kids hear OUTSIDE school.

[BorisA]

Well, my Serbian friend the old greeks prefered the Turkish Turban compared to the Latin hat (was it Lucas Notaras who fist said that?)...so much for the christian solidarity.

And our hindu friend should watch out that he doesnt run into a cow while running for pop-corn....imagine he hurts the cow.



again I haven't seen ONE comment from you on the topic. I want an opinion on this.Counterquestion: Wouldn't it be better if you first sweep in front of your own door, question yourself about the bias in your educational system and your historty books that creates so much hatred against turks and paranoia?

Well why should you if it is easier to flame around?

[Beykoz]

Here is the reality, Europe in general do not give two ****s about Turkey. They are vocal when it comes to EU accession and that is a good thing. We don't wanna be a part of EU, some in the country support it for the fact that EU pushes Turkish Government towards some reforms, BUT, reforms done for the sake of EU are pointless and do more harm than good. Take the accession out of the picture, most Europeans will tell you how wonderful Turkey is and how great and hospitable their poeple are.

Greece on the other hand eat, **** and sleep thinking about Turkey. The hate and fear of the Turk is so evident where ever you go, just look at all the threads opened regularly, begging "westerners" to confirm and back their crusade. How pathetic !!!

Turkey is on your east and no amount of subs, planes or tanks you buy will change that fact. Instead of putting all your efforts on us barbarian Turks, worry about your own pathetic country, the leech of EU. Billions of Euros in aid over the course of decades and we still have news and reports like these about you in 2009.


An agency of the Council of Europe on Tuesday held the Greek Church responsible for the discrimination and prejudice against minority groups in the country, triggering a swift response from the government in Athens. The Greek Orthodox Church affects the manner in which members of minority religious groups are treated, as they sometimes face discrimination and prejudice in various areas...
.
.
On education problems, the ECRI noted that some schoolbooks still contain negative references to non-Orthodox traditions, urging the government to remove these parts from the textbooks.
.
.
The Greek authorities should combat anti-Semitism by ensuring the arrest, prosecution and conviction of those who commit anti-Semitic acts, the ECRI said.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=church-responsible-for-bias-in-greek-says-report-2009-09-15

[Aor]

Thank you very much for the honest response.


Well...here is my honest thoughts ; The only concern I have regarding current the education system in Turkey is that the current erdogan gov't has changed a lot according to their understandings during the last 7 years of governing the counrty...they've managed to done much more serious damage to the system than the stuff in the article.

Ok so this hogwash


The Muslim religion has added to the strength of the already present courage of the Turks. The Turkish Army was always ready for war; it did not know the meaning of being tired. It was reported by eastern writers that a hundred Turks were louder than ten thousand Christians. The courage of the Turkish soldiers was above all estimation.
“The Turks are the bravest people history has ever known. Through this bravery, our nation has founded great countries that have important places in history and took many peoples under its dominion. The Turkish people hold their independence dear. They fear no one when their independence is in danger.”
“The Turks dislike cheating and lies. They do not cheat others. They are forthcoming. They are not afraid to say what they believe is right. They are respectful towards others’ rights. They are honest to their enemies as well as their friends because they believe in the necessity of being fair.”
“The Turkish nation believes being clean comes from Islam. Through this faith, they pay importance to the cleanliness of their surroundings, home and workplace. They pay importance to the cleanliness of the surroundings as much as the cleanliness of the body.is acceptable to you. The only thing you have a problem with is Erdogan's reforms of the educational system. My commends of finding the truth and using historical scientific knowledge to promote better understanding between the nations, defusing the hatred, are I guess also rejected.



they've managed to done much more serious damage to the system than the stuff in the article.

So it is not the N.Korea style propaganda you indoctrinate your youth with. It is the article that exposes the problem.



Other than that, It is difficult to take the article you dug up to post here too seriously after seeing what they teach you in your schools as an EU country.

I'm just saying my honest opinion as you asked...so don't throw a fit and blamed it all on us now again..OK ? :)

Oh what a surprise, another "they are out to get us" and " they are just as bad as we are". You have shown your true colours of being blind and deaf to facts embracing fanatical propaganda instead. Since your comprehension of your own countries history and current educational problems are viewed from an extreme nationalistic and fanatical view , then I guess you can only be a poor judge of issues of countries you don't understand, don't want to understand and most importantly try tooth and nail to fit to your small world of xenophobia and extreme nationalism.



Counterquestion: Wouldn't it be better if you first sweep in front of your own door, question yourself about the bias in your educational system and your historty books that creates so much hatred against turks and paranoia?

Well why should you if it is easier to flame around?Another Turk refusing to answer a simple question.

To indulge you, I would welcome very much a similar experiment in Greece like the one that exposed the bias in the Turkish one. Though, even with their own faults, nowhere in Greek history books will you find crap like this. All history school books are re-evaluated at present, so we are "sweeping our own floor". Plato and Thucydites are taught a at Greek schools also. A philosopher who taught people to put "noble lies" under scrutiny and a historian that wrote

"On the whole, however, the conclusions I have drawn from the proofs quoted may, I believe, safely be relied on. Assuredly they will not be disturbed either by the lays of a poet displaying the exaggeration of his craft, or by the compositions of the chroniclers that are attractive at truth's expense; the subjects they treat of being out of the reach of evidence, and time having robbed most of them of historical value by enthroning them in the region of legend."

promote truth, not propaganda.

[Beykoz]

Ok so this hogwash

is acceptable to you. The only thing you have a problem with is Erdogan's reforms of the educational system. My commends of finding the truth and using historical scientific knowledge to promote better understanding between the nations, defusing the hatred, are I guess also rejected.

No it is not, but similar stuff exist in many countries.
If you wanna promote a better understanding, start with criticizing your own before anything else.

[4X4Driver]

Thank you very much for the honest response.



Ok so this hogwash

is acceptable to you. The only thing you have a problem with is Erdogan's reforms of the educational system. My commends of finding the truth and using historical scientific knowledge to promote better understanding between the nations, defusing the hatred, are I guess also rejected.




So it is not the N.Korea style propaganda you indoctrinate your youth with. It is the article that exposes the problem.



Oh what a surprise, another "they are out to get us" and " they are just as bad as we are". You have shown your true colours of being blind and deaf to facts embracing fanatical propaganda instead. Since your comprehension of your own countries history and current educational problems are viewed from an extreme nationalistic and fanatical view , then I guess you can only be a poor judge of issues of countries you don't understand, don't want to understand and most importantly try tooth and nail to fit to your small world of xenophobia and extreme nationalism.


Another Turk refusing to answer a simple question.

To indulge you, I would welcome very much a similar experiment in Greece like the one that exposed the bias in the Turkish one. Though, even with their own faults, nowhere in Greek history books will you find crap like this. All history school books are re-evaluated at present, so we are "sweeping our own floor". Plato and Thucydites are taught a at Greek schools also. A philosopher who taught people to put "noble lies" under scrutiny and a historian that wrote

"On the whole, however, the conclusions I have drawn from the proofs quoted may, I believe, safely be relied on. Assuredly they will not be disturbed either by the lays of a poet displaying the exaggeration of his craft, or by the compositions of the chroniclers that are attractive at truth's expense; the subjects they treat of being out of the reach of evidence, and time having robbed most of them of historical value by enthroning them in the region of legend."

promote truth, not propaganda.


I'm not sure what the hell you babling about..you asked my opinion and I gave it to you..if it doesn't satisfies you, though luck. The education was not like this in my school days. It's being changed by the gov't which your country supports very much.

Like I said..don't worry about us "barbarians"..we'll never be part of your club anyways :). Just be concerned about your own situation....I've posted the teachings in your schools above..and the result is below.



On November 6, 2003, yet one more European Social Survey was published and it once again shook Greeks’ national self-image as a friendly, hospitable, and tolerant people. According to the survey, Greeks are the loneliest, most insecure, cynical, intolerant, and xenophobic people in Europe. The results came as a surprise to some, but not to those who have been studying Greek society over the past few years. Although the exact figures of the survey are publicly available on the Web, worth mentioning here are some of its most shocking statistics. (This comparative survey was conducted throughout the European Union, and a sample of 2,566 people was interviewed in Greece. The results can be found online at www.ekke.gr/ess (http://www.ekke.gr/ess) and www.europeansocialsurvey.org (http://www.europeansocialsurvey.org). For relevant articles, see Eleutherotypia and Kathimerini [both November 6, 2003].)

One out of four Greeks is homophobic and believes in some restrictions on how homo******s lead their lives. Eight out of ten Greeks believe that no foreigners, or very few, should be allowed to live in Greece. And, among Europeans, Greeks trust their fellow citizens the least. Greece enjoys the fruits of Europeanization, with GDP growth twice the EU average, but feels threatened by Europe. Having the lowest crime rates in the EU, Greece is, theoretically, among the safest places to live on the continent; Greeks, however, feel insecure, blame foreigners for the lack of law and order, and mostly trust the police among all institutions. For the first time in its history, Greece has had a stable democracy for almost three decades, but its citizens are disillusioned with parliament and mistrust politicians. Finally, according to the survey, Greeks are, by far, the most religious people in Europe.


http://www.greekworks.com/content/index.php/weblog/extended/unorthodox_politics/

[Sumadinac]

Well, my Serbian friend the old greeks prefered the Turkish Turban compared to the Latin hat (was it Lucas Notaras who fist said that?)...so much for the christian solidarity.



I've never said there was a christian solidarity.

[Hollis]

Maybe what we ought to do, is Greeks can only post about Greece and Turks only post about Turkey, If one makes a thread about the other country they win a holiday.......

So if a Greek post about Turkey or a Turk about Greece, PM me, I will see to their holiday. If civility between the members of the two countries is impossible, that is what we will have do. Does it sound childish? Yes it does....................... Then, look at how people post in these these Greek VS Turk threads.



Just wanted to add, Each member here has a wealth of information about their own country, sharing that information adds to the intellectual wealth on this forum. For those who are obsessive about slamming something, only drags this forum down. While a person may think they are slamming another country, they are really slamming themselves/country with pettiness. Maybe out do each other in excellence rather than pettiness.