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gaijinsamurai
10-01-2009, 11:08 PM
Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:51 AM
New SCOTUS Term: Watch for Loosening of Gun Regulations
Howard Fineman
When John G. Roberts Jr. testified at his confirmation hearings, he promised to be an umpire at the baseball game of constitutional law, cautiously calling balls and strikes with his eyes firmly fixed on a well-understood and relatively static strike zone. Well, as chief justice, he's turning out to be more like the owner of a baseball team, or even the commissioner, eager to rewrite the rule book if not build a whole new ballpark. His activism is a boon to conservatives─but not necessarily good news for Republicans.

The latest example of the Roberts Court's activist ambitions is its quick acceptance, for decision next year, of a gun-rights appeal from Chicago. Last year the court ruled 5-4 that the right to bear arms flows to and from individuals, even though it is mentioned in the Constitution in the context of a "well-regulated militia." Reading the Constitution in that way, the court struck down a handgun ban in the District of Columbia. But there was some doubt about whether the court's reasoning would apply in a state, as opposed to the federal District of Columbia, and how the enunciation of a new fundamental individual right should be applied. Now the court will take up the appeal of a case of a handgun ban in Chicago to clear things up.

Expect another sweeping smackdown. First, the court has already laid down a new principle─which, believe it or not, had never been directly addressed. Second, if my sense of the Roberts Court is correct, they are going to seek the most sweeping rulings they can manage to get on what they regard as their key Bill of Rights issues─gun rights, freedom of the marketplace from federal regulation, corporate rights to free speech, and official public religious expression, to name four─before the arrival of a moment they dread: when President Barack Obama get's the chance to nominate an ideological tide-changing justice.

Until that moment, if it ever comes, it's going to be pedal to the metal.

A lawyer I know who knows the Supreme Court and its habits as well as anyone in Washington (but who can't speak on the record because he practices before the court) agrees. He is a cautious man, not given to wild ****ouncements. But he sees Roberts and his three activist conservative colleagues─Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito─as being increasingly bold and assertive as they try, and generally succeed, to drag the more moderate (or some would say confused) Justice Anthony Kennedy along with them. This lawyer sees these men─especially the Core Four─as eager to carry out a sweeping campaign to lay down or rewrite as many fundamental holdings as they can get their hands on.

What that means in the case of guns is a full-scale legal assault on and sweeping away of many if not most existing regulations on their sale and possession of handguns, pistols, and rifles, at least initially. If the court decrees the use of the standard method of assessing limits on fundamental rights, it will require states and localities to show a "compelling state interest" for the regulation they seek, and a narrowly carefully tailored statute to address it. It's what the lawyers call "strict scrutiny"─and it will kill off laws by the score, at least at first.

But Republicans should beware of what they have wished for here. It is true that there has been a marked, even dramatic, decline in public support for tougher gun-control measures. For example, the Gallup poll in 1959 found that 60 percent of Americans supported a ban on the private possession of handguns. A half century later that number has been cut in half, to 30 percent. In 1991, 78 percent of Americans said that they wanted "more strict" regulation of guns; today less than 50 percent do.

And yet, if you ask Americans whether they want easier and less-strict guns laws, the answer over the years is consistent: less than 10 percent of voters say yes. That has been true since at least 1990, and probably for decades before that.

If the court acts as I think it will, by next year (if not before) states and local governments will find themselves overrun by gun-rights activists, and we'll have laws across the country like the one in Arizona, which now allows owners of guns not only to carry and conceal them in public but carry and conceal them in any bar that doesn't have a sign telling therm they can't enter if they're packing. I could be wrong (I often am), and I know that 43 percent of Americans have guns in their homes. Having a gun in your home (or a rifle for hunting) is one thing. Carrying a gun into a bar is quite another─and I can't imagine that politicians who allow it are going to be popular with the American voter.

Even Democrats like cowboys, but even Republicans (or at least independents) don't want to bring back the Wild West.

Source:

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2009/10/01/Fineman-New-Supreme-Court-Term-Gun-Regulations.aspx

gaijinsamurai
10-01-2009, 11:12 PM
"And yet, if you ask Americans whether they want easier and less-strict guns laws, the answer over the years is consistent: less than 10 percent of voters say yes. That has been true since at least 1990, and probably for decades before that."

Not from what I've read. Most sources I've seen seem to indicate that more Americans want fewer gun restrictions, and our members of Congress know it.

WarriorMonk
10-02-2009, 01:15 AM
"Wild West"

Well someone has been watching WAY too many spaghetti westerns...

seanvi
10-02-2009, 01:28 AM
This ruling will be huge. Getting all of these un-Constitutional gun bans overturned is a big step..

Zarak
10-02-2009, 01:32 AM
Wow, what a moronic opinion peace. Eliminating unconstituional bans somehow equates to all sorts of people in bars with guns. BE AFRAID.

brainplay
10-02-2009, 04:31 AM
What that means in the case of guns is a full-scale legal assault on and sweeping away of many if not most existing regulations on their sale and possession of handguns, pistols, and rifles, at least initially. If the court decrees the use of the standard method of assessing limits on fundamental rights, it will require states and localities to show a "compelling state interest" for the regulation they seek, and a narrowly carefully tailored statute to address it. It's what the lawyers call "strict scrutiny"─and it will kill off laws by the score, at least at first.I don't see a problem with this. Why shouldn't a state be required to show a "compelling state interest" when restricting a firearm? Doing so would require the state to justify its actions but if successful would give them utmost power over said issue.

There are some states that allow the public to own: fully automatic assault rifles, sound suppressors (silencers), short barrel rifles, and small bore cannons along with concealed and open carry laws. And yet they haven't turned into the wild west. No massive shootouts. No Rambo's tearing up the towns. And in some cases reductions in crime. We are not having HEAT movie shootouts every other weekend.

Your moment of Zen Mr. Fineman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDE-YHfEEcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDE-YHfEEcc
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDE-YHfEEcc)

gaijinsamurai
10-02-2009, 08:06 PM
There are some states that allow the public to own: fully automatic assault rifles, sound suppressors (silencers), short barrel rifles, and small bore cannons along with concealed and open carry laws. And yet they haven't turned into the wild west. No massive shootouts. No Rambo's tearing up the towns. And in some cases reductions in crime. We are not having HEAT movie shootouts every other weekend.

Your moment of Zen Mr. Fineman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDE-YHfEEcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDE-YHfEEcc
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDE-YHfEEcc)

My state is a good example.

(By the way, nice HEAT embed, Brainplay! IMO, the star of that scene was Pacino's FNC.)

hank
10-02-2009, 10:12 PM
Fineman is off for a lot of reasons.

First, a lot of constitutional scholars anticipated that DC ruling and strict scrutiny will not "kill off" laws. It just changes legislation. There are thousands and thousands of laws that limit fundamental rights in significant ways. If the DC ruling is expanded to a state or a city it will have a short term effect on gun regulation but not long term. Why? Because lots of smart legislators or city aldermen or whatever will learn how to articulate compelling state/city interests and narrowly tailor laws to further those interests. So this won't be a boondoggle for the pro-gun forces for long.

Problem 2 - there is still the commerce clause which allows federal regulation of interstate commerce. So nothing in the DC or Chicago will affect the federal regs so many complain about.

Problem 3 - The Core 4 he refers to will all be on the bench for 10+ years unless somebody dies unexpectedly. As will Kennedy. The 4 libs - Ginsburg, Stephens, Breyer, and Souter - all may quit while Obama is Pres. That is true. But think about it. That won't change the balance of power. It will still be 4-4 with Kennedy being the swing vote just as it is now on the core issues Fineman talks about.

Those who know the Court issues have often said that when Bush put Alito and Roberts on the bench it didn't really change power and neither will Obama's picks. The power change will happen in a Dem is in power when Scalia retires or if a Republican is in power and Breyer or Kennedy retires.

Or, Obama could appoint someone who ends up being conservative. That has happened in both directions often. Take a look at who appointed Stephens. Ford. That's right. Think he saw that coming? I doubt it.

Fineman is trying to sell advertising.

hank

gaijinsamurai
10-02-2009, 11:09 PM
Nice to get your perspective, Hank.

SilentType
10-03-2009, 03:40 AM
Second Amendment friendly? Well, God I would hope our Supreme Court is friendly to every amendment and article within the Constitution.

The Supreme Court came out against outright Draconian blanket bans in D.C. v. Heller. They will almost certainly incorporate the Second Amendment to the states in the new Chicago case they are about to hear. However, they have upheld the right to prevent those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence from purchasing or possessing firearms.

What the Supreme Court is saying is simple "look at the person not the firearm." If the person is someone fit for military service (without some special waiver) in terms of a criminal background (specifically a lack thereof) than you can't prevent him from purchasing and possessing a firearm. Pretty simple and in keeping with the Second Amendment. Outright bans should be viewed with strict scrutiny. They are neither tailored to or the lest intrusive way to prevent criminals from obtaining firearms. Otherwise, you may as well not have a Second Amendment.

If folks don't like the Second Amendment the Constitution can be amended to do away with it.

I don't give a damn if 99% of the American people want to ban every firearm out there. We're not a nation ruled by a mob we're one ruled by a Constitution that protects rights even if only a minority want to exercise them. Thank God. Founding Fathers knew that majority tyranny could be as great as that of a king on a minority. Our Constitutional Liberties are not subject to some opinion poll.

SilentType
10-03-2009, 04:02 AM
Newsweek is a progressive publication folks.

They believe that our Republic should be governed by mob rule not the U.S. Constitution. That's why that article discusses opinion poll results when the topic of conversation is Constitutional Law.

Corrupt
10-03-2009, 07:35 AM
I don't give a damn if 99% of the American people want to ban every firearm out there. We're not a nation ruled by a mob we're one ruled by a Constitution that protects rights even if only a minority want to exercise them. Thank God. Founding Fathers knew that majority tyranny could be as great as that of a king on a minority. Our Constitutional Liberties are not subject to some opinion poll.

So the worlds foremost democracy couldnt possibly change its constitution (amend it as youd probably call it) it 90% or more of the population wanted it to happen?

Geezah
10-03-2009, 12:01 PM
Carrying a gun into a bar is quite another─and I can't imagine that politicians who allow it are going to be popular with the American voter.

It happens everytime restrictions are eased on firearm ownership. When Concealed Carry was put in place in Ohio, Toby Hoover our resdident anti, said there would be blood running in the streets and we would go back to the Wild West.

Still waiting for both of these to happen, and even though there is no proof to back up their claims they are never called on it.

I look for the law to change here once they show how successful this is out West. Currently you cannot carry into any restaurent that has a Class D license, which is stupid, I don't drink but my family often goes out to eat in places like Max and Erma and Applebees.

Hollis
10-03-2009, 12:09 PM
It happens everytime restrictions are eased on firearm ownership. When Concealed Carry was put in place in Ohio, Toby Hoover our resdident anti, said there would be blood running in the streets and we would go back to the Wild West.



Lawful citizens should not be confused with the criminals. Criminal have a tendency to ignore civil rights, the constitution, the laws, etc. Then again, maybe in the eyes of some of our elected ones, we are all criminals.

gaijinsamurai
10-03-2009, 01:16 PM
Well said, Hollis.

That sucks, Geeze. Politicians pass stupid laws, which make our rights all but meaningless.
I find it annoying when I'm packing, and go to some place with a sign that says "no weapons in the building" and I have to return to my car and hide my pistol under the seat. I've gotten used to the places with these notices (library, post office, and some of the local gun stores), so just prepare accordingly, in advance. Still, it makes me uncomfortable to leave a gun in the car, unattended, even if it's just for a few minutes.

Geezah
10-03-2009, 01:57 PM
That sucks, Geeze. Politicians pass stupid laws, which make our rights all but meaningless.
I find it annoying when I'm packing, and go to some place with a sign that says "no weapons in the building" and I have to return to my car and hide my pistol under the seat. I've gotten used to the places with these notices (library, post office, and some of the local gun stores), so just prepare accordingly, in advance. Still, it makes me uncomfortable to leave a gun in the car, unattended, even if it's just for a few minutes.

The CCW law here is getting better. First round, you had to have you pistol in plain sight when in your car. They changed this in our favour, and alot of the places that used to carry No CCW signs have come down.
Also, if a private busness carries a NoCCW sign, if the sign is visable when entering the location and you are found out for what ever reason, they can only ask you to leave. If you do not leave they can have you removed due to trespassing.
Also, Gov buildings will always be a no-go, but considering we are 5yrs in now it only gets better as time goes on.

hank
10-04-2009, 01:04 AM
Engage brains folk. The second amendment even if fundamental does not trump the commerce clause. Fineman is FOS and if this is fully thought out a lot won't change. Even if Fineman nails it its not a panacea.

hank

SilentType
10-06-2009, 01:21 AM
So the worlds foremost democracy couldnt possibly change its constitution (amend it as youd probably call it) it 90% or more of the population wanted it to happen?

Amendment process is difficult by design.

Soldat_Américain
10-06-2009, 01:36 AM
Posted Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:51 AM
New SCOTUS Term: Watch for Loosening of Gun Regulations
Howard Fineman

Expect another sweeping smackdown. First, the court has already laid down a new principle─which, believe it or not, had never been directly addressed. Second, if my sense of the Roberts Court is correct, they are going to seek the most sweeping rulings they can manage to get on what they regard as their key Bill of Rights issues─gun rights, freedom of the marketplace from federal regulation, corporate rights to free speech, and official public religious expression, to name four─before the arrival of a moment they dread: when President Barack Obama get's the chance to nominate an ideological tide-changing justice.



Off topic, however if the two I have put in bold go against the government we are all fvcked.