China: Developments + Opinions! (Constantly Updated) [Archive]

Shuimo

10-02-2009, 09:14 AM

How Do Japanese React to China’s Rise? Depends on Their Age

By HIROKO TABUCHI (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/t/hiroko_tabuchi/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

Published: October 1, 2009
How Japanese see the coming role reversal with China depends largely on what generation they are from. Young Japanese, in particular, feel apathy and bewilderment. They came of age in Japan’s lost decade of economic stagnation.

When the Internet research company Macromill asked 500 20-year-olds whether they would describe Japan’s future as “bright” or “dark,” 82 percent chose dark. Japanese executives are the most pessimistic in the world, according to a recent cross-cultural survey that scored responses from 7,200 respondents on the outlook for their businesses in the short term.
“Many in Japan have lost hope,” said Yuji Genda, a labor economist at Tokyo University. “And a society that loses hope loses the will to try to make things better.”
It has been a spectacular rise and fall for Japan. At the end of World War II in 1945, the country lay in ruins, hardly able to feed itself and relying on emergency shipments of food and supplies from the occupying United States Army (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/us_army/index.html?inline=nyt-org).
By 1968, Japan’s economy was on a road to rapid recovery, overtaking West Germany to jump to No. 2 in the world under the wing of its ally and biggest trading partner, the United States.
Growth slowed somewhat after the oil supply shocks of the 1970s. But into the late 1980s, the world was awash with Japanese money as corporations snapped up prime real estate like Rockefeller Center in New York.
Remembering the good times, retiring baby boomers are nostalgic for the glorious past. Indeed, bars, restaurants and even small theme parks recreating motifs from the Showa era — the period of the previous emperor’s reign from 1926 to 1989 — have popped up all over the country, serving retro beers and displaying posters of long-gone movie stars.
“Japan had good times. We all worked hard, and companies only knew how to grow,” said Atsushi Kachi, drink in hand at the Nippon Saisei Sakaba, a 1950s-era restaurant in the Shinjuku section of Tokyo that serves grilled meats and beers of the age. “Back then, people believed their lives would get better,” said Mr. Kachi, 59, who works for a trading company.
Japanese familiar with World War II and its disastrous aftermath have a different perspective. Japan may soon be eclipsed by China, said Masaru Mizuno, 77, a longtime bureaucrat who once ran Japan Tobacco, one of Japan’s largest companies. “But it is not as if we will go back to an era of mass starvation,” he said.
“The overall size of the economy does not matter. The lives of ordinary Japanese have so improved in the last few decades,” Mr. Mizuno said. “What is there to complain about?”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/business/global/02generation.html

Shuimo

10-02-2009, 09:19 AM

Chinese Economic Juggernaut Is Gaining on Japan
By HIROKO TABUCHI (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/t/hiroko_tabuchi/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
Published: October 1, 2009
TOKYO — For years, Japan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/japan/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) has been readying itself for the day that it is eclipsed economically by China (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/index.html?inline=nyt-geo). But as a result of the global slowdown, Japan’s difficulty in managing its economy and China’s rise — on vivid display Thursday as Beijing celebrated the 60th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic — that day may come sooner than anyone predicted.

Though recent wild currency swings could delay the reckoning, many economists expect Japan to cede its rank as the world’s second-largest economy sometime next year, as much as five years earlier than previously forecast.
At stake are more than regional bragging rights: the reversal of fortune will bring an end to a global economic order that has prevailed for 40 years, with ramifications across arenas from trade and diplomacy to, potentially, military power.
China’s rise could accelerate Japan’s economic decline as it captures Japanese export markets, and as Japan’s crushing national debt increases and its aging population grows less and less productive — producing a downward spiral.
“It’s beyond my imagination how far Japan will fall in the world economy in 10, 20 years,” said Hideo Kumano, economist at the Dai-Ichi Life Research Institute in Tokyo.
Not long ago, Japan was “the economic miracle,” an ascendant juggernaut on its way to rivaling the United States, which has the biggest economy.
Now, many here ask whether Japan is destined to be the next Switzerland: rich and comfortable, but of little global import, largely ignored by the rest of the world.
Yet even this widely held hope among the country’s 127 million people may be slipping from Japan’s grasp.
The per-capita gross domestic product (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/u/united_states_economy/gross_domestic_product/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) of Japan, which surged past that of the United States in the late 1980s, stalled at $34,300 in 2007; it is now a quarter below American levels and 19th in the world. Both income inequality (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/income/income_inequality/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) and poverty are on the rise.
Unemployment stands at a record high of 5.7 percent, while prices and wages are falling fast. Japan’s economy shrank at an annualized rate of 11.7 percent in the first three months of the year before recovering to a modest 2.3 percent annual rate of growth in the second quarter.
The Chinese economy is likely to expand 8 percent in 2009, while economists expect the Japanese economy to shrink 3 percent for the year before returning to anemic growth of about 1 percent next year.
The Chinese economy grew about 10 percent a year for most of the last two decades. Over that period, Japan stagnated as huge public works projects aimed at reviving the economy went toward protecting moribund industries instead of fostering new ones, failing to lift Japan out of its doldrums while creating a huge debt burden.
The troubles in Japan have been confounded by its worst recession (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/r/recession_and_depression/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) in postwar history, brought on by the financial crisis that swept across the globe. As demand evaporated in important overseas markets, production and exports slumped as much as 40 percent this year.
Even Japan Inc. is increasingly falling off the global map. In 1988, Nomura Securities issued a ranking of companies by market capitalization, and 8 of the top 10 were in Japan, topped by Nippon Telegraph & Telephone.
As of July 31 this year, not a single Japanese company made the global top 10.
The list was dominated by companies based in China and the United States; Toyota Motor (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/toyota_motor_corporation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) ranked No. 22, at $144.5 billion, and only five other Japanese companies made the top 100.
The richest man in Japan, the retailing entrepreneur Tadashi Yanai, was 76th in the most recent global Forbes list, behind moguls from countries like Mexico, India and the Czech Republic — a far cry from the late 1980s, when Japanese industrialists like the railroad tycoon Yoshiaki Tsutsumi were among those at the top.
China has also surpassed Japan in having the biggest trade surplus and foreign currency reserves, as well as the highest steel production. And next year, China could overtake Japan as the largest automobile producer.
A new government has vowed to take Japan on a new development path, one that relies less on the exports that have long driven growth and is more focused on increasing domestic demand. The Democratic Party, which recently swept the long-ruling Liberal Democrats out of power, has promised to strengthen social welfare and redistribute wealth more evenly.
Per-capita income in China is still less than a tenth that in Japan. But by other measures, the Chinese economy long ago overtook that of Japan.
In terms of overall purchasing power, China surpassed Japan in 1992 and will overtake the United States before 2020.
In some ways, this reflects economic fundamentals: As countries develop, growth tends to slow. Annual growth in Japanese gross domestic product averaged 10.4 percent in the 1960s and 5 percent in the 1970s, but only 4 percent in the 1980s and 1.8 percent in the 1990s, according to Goldman Sachs (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/goldman_sachs_group_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org). In the first decade of this century, growth has been even slower.
Some economists say Japan does not need to fear its neighbor. China became Japan’s largest trading partner in 2006, and China-bound exports were among the first to show signs of recovery in the recent slump. As the global auto market stagnates, carmakers like Toyota and Nissan are making a renewed play for the Chinese market.
“Japan is neighbors with a rapidly growing market,” said Nobuo Iizuka, chief economist at the Japan Center for Economic Research. “That is a great advantage, not a threat. The question is, can Japan build on that advantage?”
Still, said C. H. Kwan, a senior fellow at the Nomura Institute of Capital Market Research, based in Tokyo, “this is a big psychological shock to Japan.”
Mr. Kwan, a native of Hong Kong, migrated to Tokyo after being awed by the 1979 book “Japan as No. 1,” by Ezra F. Vogel, who sang the praises of the country’s fast economic growth.
Now, he is working on a book of his own: “China as No. 1.”
Based on current growth and currency trends, Mr. Kwan forecasts that the Chinese economy could surpass that of the United States in 2039. And that date could move up to 2026 if China lets its currency appreciate by a mere 2 percent a year.
“We’re no longer talking about China making lots of shoes,” he said. “China is about to leave everyone behind in a big way.”

Ordie

10-02-2009, 06:46 PM

China Is Wordless on Traumas of Communists’ Rise
By ANDREW JACOBS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/j/andrew_jacobs/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
CHANGCHUN, China — Unlike in other cities taken by the People’s Liberation Army during China (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/index.html?inline=nyt-geo)’s civil war, there were no crowds to greet the victors as they made their triumphant march through the streets of this industrial city in the heart of Manchuria.
Even if relieved to learn that hostilities with Chiang Kai-shek’s Nationalist Army had come to an end, most residents — the ones who had not died during the five-month siege — were simply too weak to go outdoors. “We were just lying in bed starving to death,” said Zhang Yinghua, now 86, as she recalled the famine that claimed the lives of her brother, her sister and most of her neighbors. “We couldn’t even crawl.”
In what China’s history books hail as one of the war’s decisive victories, Mao’s troops starved out the formidable Nationalist garrison that occupied Changchun with nary a shot fired. What the official story line does not reveal is that at least 160,000 civilians also died during the siege of the northeastern city, which lasted from June to October of 1948.
The People’s Republic of China basked in its 60th anniversary on Thursday with jaw-dropping pageantry, but there were no solemn pauses for the lives lost during the Communist Party’s rise to power — not for the estimated tens of millions who died during the civil war, nor the millions of landlords, Nationalist sympathizers and other perceived enemies who were eradicated during Mao’s drive to consolidate power.
“Changchun was like Hiroshima,” wrote Zhang Zhenglu, a lieutenant colonel in the People’s Liberation Army who documented the siege in “White Snow, Red Blood,” (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19901122&slug=1105487) a book that was immediately banned after publication in 1989. “The casualties were about the same. Hiroshima took nine seconds; Changchun took five months.”
The 40,000 who survived did so by eating insects, leather belts and, in some cases, the bodies that littered the streets. By the time Communist troops took over the city, every leaf and blade of grass had been consumed during the final desperate months.
There are no monuments or markers recalling the events that decimated Changchun’s populace. Most young people have no knowledge of the darker aspects of the siege, and the survivors, now in their 70s and 80s, are reluctant to give voice to long-buried trauma. “I’ve always heard that Changchun was captured without bloodshed,” Li Jiaqi, a 17-year-old high school student, said as she sat on the steps in front of the city’s Liberation Memorial.
Chinese scholars have largely steered clear of the subject. Several historians, when asked about the episode, declined to be interviewed. Zhou Jiewen, a retired nuclear physicist in Changchun who has become a self-taught expert on the siege, explained that many key details, if widely disseminated, would tarnish the army’s reputation as defenders of the common man. Those include shooting civilians who tried to escape the city and ignoring the pleas of mothers holding aloft starving children on the other side of the barbed-wire barricades. “To cause so many civilians to die was a great blunder by the P.L.A. and tragedy unparalleled in the civil war,” Mr. Zhou said.
While history is often written by the victors, the Communist Party has never been shy about shaping the past to serve its central narrative. Textbooks portray the revolution as the inevitable outcome of a popular uprising; the patriotic films that have flooded television in recent months are not subtle in their glorification of Mao’s troops as munificent liberators. The unpleasant aspects of the revolution, including innocents caught in the cross-fire, are often omitted.
“The party has no use for objective history,” said Bao Pu (http://blogs.wsj.com/chinajournal/2009/06/04/bao-pu-discusses-zhao-ziyangs-memoirs/), a Hong Kong publisher who infuriated party leaders last spring by printing the memoir of Zhao Ziyang (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/world/asia/15zhao.html), the deposed Communist Party leader who spent 15 years under house arrest after opposing the violent crackdown on democracy protesters in 1989. “The basic idea is that history can be rewritten and used as a tool of the state. But this requires constant censorship. And it has a destructive effect on society.”
Other unintended consequences of suppressing the truth are hard to quantify. Many Chinese, especially those who grew up during the tumultuous decades of war, famine and political persecution, carry psychic wounds that are seldom expressed, let alone healed.
Lung Ying-tai, a University of Hong Kong professor who studied the siege of Changchun, said nearly every elderly army officer she interviewed for her book about the civil war, “Big River, Big Sea — Untold Stories of 1949,” broke down when recounting what he experienced. “It’s an unspeakable national trauma that has not once been opened up and gently treated for 60 years,” she said.
The book, which was published last month in Taiwan and promptly banned on the mainland, seeks to portray the horror of the civil war through the stories of those who survived. “There are not too many left who can clearly remember,” she said.
The elderly survivors who gather in Changchun’s Labor Park most days are not eager to tell their tales. But after some prompting, the details spill out. They describe babies too weak to cry, brides sold for a morsel of food and the milewide no man’s land where thousands perished in full view of troops under orders from Gen. Lin Biao to turn Changchun into a “dead city.”
In the first few months of the siege, food could be purchased, albeit at exorbitant prices. By the end of the summer, people were trading thick gold rings for a biscuit.
“At first we ate rotten sorghum, then corncobs and then the bark off the trees,” said Meng Qinghua, 85. “After a week of not eating you’d get very sleepy. Once that happened, you would start to die.”
The few airdrops of aid, delivered by American planes, were quickly gobbled up by Nationalist troops. When those stopped, the soldiers stole food from civilians at gunpoint. In the poorer quarters of the city, according to “White Snow, Red Blood,” 9 of 10 families were wiped out.
Although her family was relatively well off, Zhang Yinghua said there was nothing to be bought by the end of summer. They opened their pillows and consumed the corn husk filling. Later they boiled and ate leather.
Then 25, Ms. Zhang understood that swallowing such unpalatable matter was the only way to survive. “Every day we would eat a spoonful, just enough to maintain the flicker of life, but the children would not,” she said. When her 6-year-old sister and her 9-year-old brother finally died, her parents, barely able to stand, dragged their bodies to the street.
Some of those charged with enforcing the blockade have come to regret their participation. Wang Junru said he was 15 when the Communists forced him to join a militia for teenagers. Later, he joined 170,000 other soldiers ordered to drive back hungry civilians. “We were told they were the enemy and they had to die,” he said.
Whatever zeal he had for the revolution was extinguished by the 23 years he spent in a labor camp — punishment, he said, for insulting the relative of a party official when he was a college student. After his release, he spent the rest of his working life hauling logs.
Now 76 and embittered, he said young people should learn about what happened in Changchun — and during the rest of the civil war. “They only know the propaganda,” he said. “Maybe if they know how horrible war is, they can try to avoid it in the future.”
Li Bibo contributed research.

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/world/asia/02anniversary.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=print

Smiling_Wolf

10-02-2009, 07:35 PM

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/world/asia/02anniversary.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=print

Scary. Even I didn't know about this.

But I wonder if the youth will even care? They'll probably just cringe uncomfortably and walk away... then buy some faux-Nike t-shirts to shrug it off.

TheMiddlePath

10-03-2009, 12:11 AM

Big jump in China's internet users.

Old figures.
http://i38.tinypic.com/33le8wo.jpg

New figures drawn to scale just to properly compare. (Phone users added)

http://i38.tinypic.com/14myhb5.jpg

China’s Internet Population Hits 338 Million

The total number of China’s Internet users reached 338 million as of June 30, representing a 13.4% increase from the end of 2008, according to the latest report by the China Internet Network Information Center (CNNIC), a government-affiliated Web research organization.

Some other highlights from the report:

• As much as 94% of the Internet population—about 320 million people— use broadband connections to access the Web. However, broadband Internet speeds lag far behind more developed countries.

• Over 80% of Internet users surf the Web at home. The number of people going Internet cafés decrease by 7% since end of 2008. Only 5% of the Internet population accesses the Internet from the workplace.

• The Internet penetration rate reached 25.5% as of June 30, up from 22.6% at the end of last year. While this puts China above the global average of around 24%, China’s Internet penetration rate remains low compared to developed countries (the U.S., for example, has a penetration rate of around 75%).

• The number of people who surf the Web on their mobile phones hit 155 million, representing 46% of the overall Internet population. The number of mobile Internet users is likely to see further growth in the coming years with the launch of the third-generation (3G) mobile phone networks in China, CNNIC said.

• By June 2008, China had passed the United States to become the world’s largest Internet market by number of users. But with the total number of Web users in China reaching a critical mass, the rate of growth has slowed a bit. Liu Bing, director of CNNIC’s research and development department, forecast a 6% to 7% yearly increase in China’s online penetration rate in the coming years.

• The report also notes that the global economic slowdown does not seem to be having a big impact on China’s Internet, but that Internet safety remains a major obstacle to the substantial development of the China’s online market.

plato

10-03-2009, 01:23 AM

TheMiddlePath

10-03-2009, 03:08 AM

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=356&pictureid=16665
more like the most restricted internet users. Just checked with my Chinese friends mins ago, facebook and youtube are still blocked.

Well, who is better. A person with no internet at all or a person with internet with a few restrictions.

plato

10-03-2009, 03:11 AM

Well, who is better. A person with no internet at all or a person with internet with a few restrictions.

Of course "a person with internet with a few restrictions" is better. But, you do agree with me that facebook and youtube are still blocked, right?

Solvent

10-03-2009, 03:25 AM

Of course "a person with internet with a few restrictions" is better. But, you do agree with me that facebook and youtube are still blocked, right?

What's so brilliant about facebook and youtube?

plato

10-03-2009, 03:30 AM

What's so brilliant about facebook and youtube?
The fact that these unbrilliant things on blocked.

Solvent

10-03-2009, 03:40 AM

The fact that these unbrilliant things on blocked.

Things that suck or unbrilliant deserve to be blocked, and should be blocked right the way.

plato

10-03-2009, 03:47 AM

Things that suck or unbrilliant deserve to be blocked, and should be blocked right the way.

Who decides what sucks or is unbrilliant?

Solvent

10-03-2009, 03:49 AM

Who decides what sucks or is unbrilliant?

"The fact that these unbrilliant things on blocked" --Plato

Qoute from you. you decided for us already.

plato

10-03-2009, 03:50 AM

"The fact that these unbrilliant things on blocked" --Plato

Qoute from you. you decided for us already.

Do I get to decide if it should be blocked or not, then?

Ordie

10-03-2009, 03:53 AM

All that matters is for the Chinese internet user to know who blocked the sites.

plato

10-03-2009, 03:58 AM

All that matters is for the Chinese internet user to know who blocked the sites.
The thing is that most Chinese internet users do know who is blocking them, and a lot of them (if not most them) think this is a reasonable. They think that some sites deserve to be blocked.

Solvent

10-03-2009, 03:59 AM

Do I get to decide if it should be blocked or not, then?

Does it matter you make decision or not? Somebody made for you based on same conclusion.:)

Solvent

10-03-2009, 04:00 AM

The thing is that most Chinese internet users do know who is blocking them, and a lot of them (if not most them) think this is a reasonable. They think that some sites deserve to be blocked.

I didn't express my opinion at all. I just follow your logic, the fact is you failed.

Ordie

10-03-2009, 04:03 AM

The thing is that most Chinese internet users do know who is blocking them, and a lot of them (if not most them) think this is a reasonable. They think that some sites deserve to be blocked.

Sooner or later technology will outpace the government's effort to censor and block certain sites.

plato

10-03-2009, 04:06 AM

Does it matter you make decision or not? Somebody made for you based on same conclusion.:)

Who made what decision for me? I can still access facebook and youtube. So, you are right about "Does it matter you make decision or not? "

I didn't express my opinion at all. I just follow your logic, the fact is you failed.

I failed? at what? failed to point out the fact that as of Oct 3rd, 2009 facebook and youtube are still blocked in China?

Why did you follow my "logic"? Do I need to be logical when pointing out facts?

What are you talking about!!!!!

Solvent

10-03-2009, 04:06 AM

Sooner or later technology will outpace the government's effort to censor and block certain sites.

I am not happy with the firewall. People already are using proxy to log in Youtube if they really want to. There are bunch of similar video sharing website in China. I guess majority of users are happy with them.

plato

10-03-2009, 04:10 AM

Solvent

10-03-2009, 04:10 AM

I failed? at what? failed to point out the fact that as of Oct 3rd, 2009 facebook and youtube are still blocked in China?

Why did you follow my "logic"? Do I need to be logical when pointing out facts?

What are you talking about!!!!!

Obviously, you didn't get it.

Anyway, your trying to confuse the number of web user and the censorship is not working.

Solvent

10-03-2009, 04:11 AM

I also found ways to log into youtube when I was in China this summer. But, I had to find a new way every other week, because they kept on blocking the sites I was using to bypass the great firewall of China.

I think it is going to take months for the censorship to loose up. If it's going to happen at all.

plato

10-03-2009, 04:12 AM

Obviously, you didn't get it.

Anyway, your trying to confuse the number of web user and the censorship is not working.

Confused about what? Do you mind explaining?

SilentType

10-03-2009, 04:15 AM

Sooner or later technology will outpace the government's effort to censor and block certain sites.

Exactly, can't fight the future it is coming whether they like it or not.

Solvent

10-03-2009, 04:22 AM

Exactly, can't fight the future it is coming whether they like it or not.

In the long run maybe, but right now, it's hard to predict.

hskywalker

10-03-2009, 07:19 AM

Bloomberg blocked. And people say shanghai will be the next asian financial centre.:)

Ordie

10-03-2009, 01:16 PM

Bloomberg blocked. And people say shanghai will be the next asian financial centre.:)

Being a financial center is more than having the right location, and glass and steel skyscrapers, you need a solid foundation in the rule of law for everyone's benefit.

This is why Hong Kong will always be more attractive than Shanghai.

acosta

10-03-2009, 10:31 PM

honestly,
most china thread are posted by ordie.
shuimo only ranked #2 since he is often restricted for some notable reasons.
hulaku ranked #3, by my recent count.

acosta

10-03-2009, 10:46 PM

plato

10-03-2009, 10:57 PM

youtube was viewable several months ago, and it's basically an english site, not widely known by chinese internet users. tudou.com, youku.com, ku6.com are the top video shareing places in china, followed by some small portals. not a big deal i guess.

facebook is even a less familiar thing to chinese users, most young guys go to xiaonei.com, and the younger, jump to kaixin.com, with more cool features.

well, bbc chinese might be a point where we can start to rant about china's blocking effort.

They are not widely known, then why block them?

Since they are no big deal, then why block them?

Yes, youtube was viewable before June, and it has been blocked ever since. It was blocked several times before June as well.

Facebook was so unfamiliar to Chinese users that China's PM Wen Jiabao started his own page there: http://www.facebook.com/pages/-Wen-Jia-bao/13823116911?v=wall

Hongjian

10-03-2009, 11:04 PM

Scary. Even I didn't know about this.

But I wonder if the youth will even care? They'll probably just cringe uncomfortably and walk away... then buy some faux-Nike t-shirts to shrug it off.

You are not very expierienced with Chinese culture and history, arent you? No offence.

You just have to read old-ass novels like San Guo and forget all the epic-manly awesomeness in it that made it enjoyable, you could clearly see that the war-torn Chinese history is filled with bloodied episodes like those mentioned. And alot of chinese youngsters are hardcore San Guo fans.

It's nothing to feel uncomfortable about. Business as usual. In war, there are deaths.

Did you know that the PLA was slaughtering counterrevolutionaries and were raping dissent civilians daughters like the insurgents they where, even before Mao came to power? No? Then thats bad. Because this is how China works since the dawn of history. Thats War. Thats why we love peace and stability at all costs. even if it cost five-thousand slaughtered students on Tienanmen. Because if this peace and stability is broken because of foolish dreams of western democracy, another Mao and another PLA have to rape the living f*ck out of China to unite it again and to restore peace.

Think about it. Grand our youngsters some time of carelessness, as long as they can.

plato

10-03-2009, 11:06 PM

plato

10-03-2009, 11:13 PM

You are not very expierienced with Chinese culture and history, arent you? No offence.

You just have to read old-ass novels like San Guo and forget all the epic-manly awesomeness in it that made it enjoyable, you could clearly see that the war-torn Chinese history is filled with bloodied episodes like those mentioned. And alot of chinese youngsters are hardcore San Guo fans.

It's nothing to feel uncomfortable about. Business as usual. In war, there are deaths.

Did you know that the PLA was slaughtering counterrevolutionaries and were raping dissent civilians daughters like the insurgents they where, even before Mao came to power? No? Then thats bad. Because this is how China works since the dawn of history. Thats War. Thats why we love peace and stability at all costs. even if it cost five-thousand slaughtered students on Tienanmen. Because if this peace and stability is broken because of foolish dreams of western democracy, another Mao and another PLA have to rape the living f*ck out of China to unite it again and to restore peace.

Think about it. Grand our youngsters some time of carelessness, as long as they can.

Why are you so sure peace and stability cannot be achieved without slaughtering students on Tienanmen? Is that what you really think?

Are you sure peace and stability has to be broken by dreams of democracy? If so, why?

Hongjian

10-03-2009, 11:25 PM

Why are you so sure peace and stability cannot be achieved without slaughtering students on Tienanmen? Or is that what you think?

Are you sure peace and stability has to be broken by dreams of democracy? If so, why?

I'm pretty sure that a bloodied and corrupted country like China can only be held together by bloodied and corrupted emperors.

After all, the democratic experiments had failed three times already in China.
The first time it was the foolish dream of a man named Sun Zhongshan, who wanted to turn China, a millenia old totaliarian monarchy with a authoritarian and freedom-antagonizing culture, into a western styled Democratic Republic, which failed even in his own lifetime.
The second experiment failed when Mao and the CCP came into power who also originally wanted to turn the country into a Democratic People's Republic, with widely discussed outcome.
The third time started on the Tienanmen-Square in 1989 and is still showing his utter fail today by the fact that China was saved from the fate of becoming a second Russian Federation under Yeltzin, but instead a powerful country with world ambition and large monetary reserves.

Ah. And it is worth to mention that all three times, the failed experiments just caused turmoil, destruction and massive bloodshet.

Thats why: No more experiments. China is too fragile to bear any more of them. We first have to get the necessary sh*t done. China is still not out of the woods.

Solvent

10-04-2009, 11:55 AM

Stories from old generations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ ... p;bctid=43143262001 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/?bcpid=4464161001&bctid=43143262001)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ ... p;bctid=43132723001 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/?bcpid=4464161001&bctid=43132723001)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ ... p;bctid=43132722001 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/?bcpid=4464161001&bctid=43132722001)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ ... p;bctid=43142461001 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/?bcpid=4464161001&bctid=43142461001)

Hongjian

10-04-2009, 12:41 PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/6256434/China-anniversary-Why-the-Communist-party-still-enjoys-the-support-of-its-people.html#

China anniversary: Why the Communist party still enjoys the support of its people
By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai
Published: 6:16PM BST 03 Oct 2009

This week, the Communist Party has been celebrating 60 years since Chairman Mao conquered Bejing and announced the beginning of a new China. In its early days, the Communist Party promised democracy, a free press and an independent judicial system. Six decades on, however, none of those exist in China.

Instead, between 20 and 40 million Chinese starved to death during the Great Famine at the end of the 1950s and countless others suffered untold persecution during the Cultural Revolution. Nevertheless, the Communist Party continues to enjoy the mandate of the people, a fact that often surprises Western observers.

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Qian Xiuzhen, 93: My happiest time was after Mao came into power
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Zhou Xingfen, 84: These are my happiest years
Fireworks erupt over Beijing
Key dates in 60 years of communism In a park in Shanghai's French Concession, Qian Xiuzhen, 93, broke into tears as she explained why she remains an ardent supporter. "My happiest time was after Mao came to power," she said, adding that there had been a fundamental, and incredibly exciting, shift in the social order.

"People were allowed to express their views. Before, people had no right to speak out. Life was hard before. Almost every normal family faced the difficulties that my family experienced. It was a world for the rich, not for ordinary people," she said.

In her mid-thirties by the time the Communists came to power, Ms Qian said her early life had been ripped apart by the Japanese invasion of China in 1937. "I feel so sad now when I think about the past. Two of my family were killed during the Japanese invasion. My younger brother was mauled to death by a Japanese dog and my father was shot by Japanese soldiers," she said.

"At the time, you could only buy 100ml of cooking oil per person a month and there was nowhere to buy rice. People had to queue for long time and they fought for rice for their families. Policemen in the French Concession used to beat up the people scrambling for rice, and if you were lucky enough to get rice, you still might be robbed by other hungry people."

Then during China's brief Nationalist government, under Chiang Kai-shek, food was scarce and people starved, she recalled. "People could not buy anything at all to eat," she said. When Mao arrived in power, she paraded down Shanghai's main avenue with a basket of flowers.

The South China Morning Post captured the excitement of the moment, a profound moment of change that still resonates in the minds of older Chinese, describing "jubilant scenes" as Mao spoke out from the Great Hall of the People.

Now Ms Qian draws a monthly pension of 1,800 yuan (Pounds180) and sits every day in a leafy park. "In the past, this park was forbidden to Chinese. It was an exclusive park for French children, in this concession area. After the concession was reclaimed, and all the foreigners went home, the park became a public place and is now a nice park and very convenient for us old people."

For Zhou Xingfen, 84, Chairman Mao improved the education system and gave rights to women to work and study. "In old China, women did not have a say. New China brought us rights. Beforehand we were merely domestic helpers who stayed at home and quite ignorant."

In the 1960s, more than a third of Chinese were illiterate. By the turn of the century, the figure had fallen to 7 per cent, while GDP rose from 67.9 billion yuan in 1952 to 30,067 billion in 2008.

Now, she boasts, her children have all grown wealthy. "I live in quite a big house. In the past we had a difficult time, the eye operation I just had, which cost 4,000 yuan, would have been unthinkable in the past. We could not afford to go to hospital. Now my children all make good money. They often invite us to eat out, which was impossible in the past," she said.

In a quite lane in Shanghai, Zhang Weimin, 77, lives with his wife in a run-down shack. Mr Zhang was the son of a wealthy doctor and his fortunes have faded under Communism, reducing him to an impoverished life. However, even he concedes that the Party has made life "more stable and comfortable, especially for old people".

After the death of his parents, Mr Zhang enrolled in the army, but his problems and responsibilities multiplied after his marriage. "Life was no longer easy for me, there were increased family responsibilities and my living standards decreased accordingly," he said drily.

Like many Chinese, however, he is accustomed to "chi ku", or "swallowing bitterness", and has only praise for the social system established by the CCP. "Before 1949, people who were 60 years-old were a rarity, now you are only a little brother at 60, people normally live up to their 80s and 90s. The change of social system, and the improvement of living standards have prolonged people's lives."

While they acknowledge the hardships of the past 60 years, many Chinese prefer to look forward and not to dwell on their painful history. "My father died at 46. My mother starved to death during the Great Famine," said Kuai Guoying, 86. "We did not get to eat meat. We didn't even have grain. I had five siblings but only two survived," she said.

After she was married, and moved to Shanghai, Ms Kuai's husband was sent to the other end of China, to Yunnan province, as part of a government scheme to develop the countryside. By herself, she had to care for a family of nine, including her husband's relatives, on the 20 yuan (£2) that he sent back each month.

"I went out, found a job, and got paid over 40 yuan a month. I basically supported the family. My husband later got transferred to Ningbo, Zhejiang. He asked me to move to his place but I refused to go since I had to support the elders at home. When our children were little, they did not have enough food or clothes. We bought back fabric and use to sew at night by the light of the lamp hanging from top of the mosquito net. "

Now, even Ms Kuai supports the Party, noting that her children have been able to move overseas, to the United States, and that they have enough to eat and enough money to get by. "Life has been much better now, much better. It is thanks to the Party, really."

"I often say to my husband that life is totally different for our grandchildren, not only from the life we had, but even from the lives their parents lived. They have nothing to worry about, no need to worry about food or clothes. In the past, one had to work really hard to support four people. Now it is just the opposite.

"Life has been much better now, much better, thanks to the Party, really."

no troll intended.p-)

MZKT

10-04-2009, 04:26 PM

Why are you so sure peace and stability cannot be achieved without slaughtering students on Tienanmen? Is that what you really think?

Are you sure peace and stability has to be broken by dreams of democracy? If so, why?

When considering what has happened to CIS after it's "democratic reforms" (economic collapse, border wars, displacements, genocides, explosion of crime, poverty,epidemies, millions deaths....), slaughtering of Tiananmen students may appear as far lesser evil.

TheMiddlePath

10-04-2009, 11:17 PM

honestly,
most china thread are posted by ordie.
shuimo only ranked #2 since he is often restricted for some notable reasons.
hulaku ranked #3, by my recent count.

Couldn't be more correct. I even can figure out where Ordie gets his news article from....based on the timing of his post.

Its from a news portal. He just picks the bad ones and ignores the others.

Right...Ordie ?

TheMiddlePath

10-04-2009, 11:33 PM

http://i38.tinypic.com/klu84.jpg

SHANGHAI — China (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) plans to spend billions of dollars in the next few years to develop media and entertainment companies that it hopes can compete with global giants like the News Corporation (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/news_corporation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and Time Warner (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/time_warner_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org), and will in the process loosen some of its tight control of these industries.
An ambitious plan, set forth in guidelines last week by China’s State Council, envisions the creation of entertainment, news and culture companies with a market orientation and with less government backing. China, in short, would like to consolidate its industry into companies resembling Bloomberg, Time Warner and Viacom, analysts say.
“There appears to be a feeling at the highest levels of government that they need a media machine commensurate to the rising status and power of China,” says Jim Laurie, a former ABC News correspondent who teaches at Hong Kong University and recently met with Chinese state broadcasting executives.
Beijing hopes the moves will even improve the nation’s image overseas — part of a longstanding effort to use “soft power,” rather than military might to win friends abroad.
Along the way, Beijing will allow private and foreign companies to invest in everything from music, film and television to theater, dance and opera productions — though largely through state-owned companies.
The News Corporation, Viacom and other Western media giants have for years been frustrated by their inability to win approval to produce films and television programs aimed at Chinese consumers; often, they have operated with Chinese joint venture partners and run into delays or political barriers. Several American companies said they were studying the new Chinese rules and declined to comment further on them.
In its announcement last week, Beijing said that state-owned groups would be reorganized to allow outside financing so that they could “live on their own rather than being attached to government departments as parasites.”
The companies will gain greater freedom to finance and produce a wider range of entertainment and cultural content for distribution inside the country, and even for export.
Though China has not provided a detailed plan yet, one exception is likely to be news programming, which falls under the control of the Communist Party. China has also been upgrading its state-run news media, with an eye on foreign language publications, wire services and television programs to reach readers and viewers overseas.
Among the first companies to benefit from the new government policy will be Shanghai Media Group, one of the country’s biggest state-run news and media conglomerates. In August, the government gave the company approval to reorganize its operations and to issue stock to the public.
S.M.G., as it is known, had close to $1 billion in revenue and $100 million in profit last year. It also has partnerships with companies like the News Corporation, Viacom and CNBC, and a profitable array of television units, including a home shopping network, an animation channel, fashion and lifestyle programming, as well as radio, newspaper, magazine and film production units.
The company is being split into a state-controlled nonprofit side that will house news programming and satellite transmission, and a profit-driven side focused on advertising, content development and distribution.
“The domestic media market is being changed dramatically,” says Li Ruigang, S.M.G.’s 40-year-old chairman and chief executive. “This will be a new S.M.G. In the future we’ll be a holding company, and there will be more than 10 subsidiaries.”
To help the company bulk up, the China Development Bank recently agreed to provide $1.5 billion in financing over the next five years.
The government policy bank will become a partner with S.M.G. on a separate $735 million private equity (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/private_equity/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) fund. That fund, China Media Capital, will invest in media and entertainment properties and is headed by Mr. Li, the chairman of S.M.G.
Michael Tung, the chief investment officer of China Media Capital, says the government is encouraging consolidation in the media and entertainment industry and that the fund will help develop bigger media groups.
“China’s market is very fragmented,” Mr. Tung said. “China should have four or five huge media groups. There’s nothing now like News Corp or Time Warner. But we’ll also be looking for overseas opportunities.”
Foreign media companies looking for greater access to China’s vast market may be disappointed, analysts say of the new guidelines.
“This is not an invitation for stakes by international media companies,” says Vivek Couto, director of Media Partners Asia, a Hong Kong-based research firm. “But this may be an invitation for private equity and foreign capital to do more.”
Investments by media companies, if they come, are expected to be through partnerships — something already done with government scrutiny.
“This is a good time for Western companies to come in and find partners,” says Zhu Mei, the head of Linden Consulting in Beijing.
Ms. Zhu says the policy seems likely to nurture partnerships like the joint venture formed by Gehua Cultural Development Group, a state-owned Beijing company, with Live Nation (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/live-nation-inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org), the American concert and performance organizer.
But other experts warn of regulatory hurdles, because media and entertainment companies report to a variety of agencies, each with its own imperatives.
That may be one reason China Central Television, the nation’s largest broadcaster, was not selected for the first reorganization.
CCTV is considered the mouthpiece of the central government and recently underwent a management shake-up after a fire severely damaged part of its nearly finished $700 million headquarters in Beijing, designed by Rem Koolhaas (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/rem_koolhaas/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Ole Scheeren.
Despite that setback, Mr. Couto and other analysts say some of China’s big media companies are flourishing, with film and other entertainment venues growing quickly as wealthy Chinese consumers seek leisure activities.
One of the country’s most famous film groups, Huayi Brothers Media Corporation, recently won approval to sell stock to the public in an offering that is expected to raise $90 million on China’s new Nasdaq-style exchange, the Growth Enterprises Market.
Over at S.M.G., Mr. Li concedes that taking his company public has long been one of his “obsessions.”
“This is to make the industry more market oriented,” he says. “We hope S.M.G. can be a pioneer of this reform.”

CS1.6

10-05-2009, 12:53 AM

It is so ironic to read all the supportive comments left on Wen Jiabao's facebook page. How many of these people actually accessed Wen's facebook from inside China? I wonder if any of the comments asked him why facebook is blocked in China on facebook.

if you want to get the answer so much, then just simply ask the question to him on the facebook.

i dont even think Wen himself run the page, must be his assistant or something running it.

CS1.6

10-05-2009, 12:56 AM

Couldn't be more correct. I even can figure out where Ordie gets his news article from....based on the timing of his post.

Its from a news portal. He just picks the bad ones and ignores the others.

Right...Ordie ?

What Ordie and Shuimo doing here is quite interesting,

Ordie posts so many China-evil-news and he's a hero here,

Shuimo Posts some China-developing-news and he was told to...............

dracon49

10-05-2009, 01:04 AM

I read if i remember well that in 10-20 years the Chinese economy will be bigger then the American one(according to estimates).

Universal_Soldier

10-05-2009, 01:06 AM

I dont think the world realise how rapidly China is growing. It's quite stunning how far they 've come.

Solvent

10-05-2009, 01:12 AM

I read if i remember well that in 10-20 years the Chinese economy will be bigger then the American one(according to estimates).

It is good will. But there are many uncertainties ahead.

hulaku

10-05-2009, 02:44 AM

honestly,
most china thread are posted by ordie.
shuimo only ranked #2 since he is often restricted for some notable reasons.
hulaku ranked #3, by my recent count.

Bronze medal wont do for me. Gotta go for goldp-)

hskywalker

10-05-2009, 03:55 AM

Chinese Premier Wen Meets North Korea’s Kim Jong Il (Update1)

Share (javascript:togShareLinks('shr_v');) | Email (?Subject=Bloomberg%20news:%20%20Chinese Premier Wen Meets North Korea’s Kim Jong Il (Update1) &body=%20Chinese Premier Wen Meets North Korea’s Kim Jong Il (Update1) %0D%0A%0D%0A%20http%3A//www.bloomberg.com/apps/news%3Fpid%3Demail_en%26sid%3DaxHS8ks6bZoQ) | Print (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/#) | A (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/#) A (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/#) A (http://militaryphotos.net/forums/#)

By Bomi Lim

http://militaryphotos.net/apps/data?pid=avimage&iid=ilDfOs3RrQGc

Oct. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Wen+Jiabao&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) met with North Korean leader Kim Jong Il (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Kim+Jong+Il&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) in Pyongyang yesterday amid heightened diplomatic efforts to convince Kim’s regime to return to stalled international talks on its nuclear program.
Kim greeted Wen at the airport, the official Xinhua News Agency and Korean Central News Agency reported. Wen was accompanied by Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Yang+Jiechi&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) and Vice Foreign Minister Wu Dawei (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Wu+Dawei&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), China’s top envoy to the so-called six-party talks, Xinhua said.
North Korea reiterated its willingness to denuclearize the Korean peninsula through “bilateral and multilateral dialogues,” KCNA reported.
China is North Korea’s largest trading partner and host of the nuclear talks, which also involve South Korea, the U.S., Japan and Russia. North Korea pulled out of the talks in April after the United Nations condemned the country for launching a missile over Japan. Kim’s regime detonated a nuclear device in May, after its first such test in October 2006.
Wen also met with North Korean Premier Kim Yong Il yesterday and the two men signed “a series of agreements on cooperation,” Xinhua reported, without elaborating.
The visit “clearly indicates how important the Chinese party and government regard relations with North Korea,” the state’s Rodong Sinmun newspaper said yesterday in a commentary carried by KCNA. “The history of the friendly relations between North Korea and China will continue generation after generation,” it said.
U.S. Engagement
The U.S. is willing to engage North Korea directly to restart the nuclear talks, Deputy Secretary of State James Steinberg (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=James%0ASteinberg&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) said on Sept. 30 in Seoul.
North Korea the same day warned its southern neighbor not to interfere, rejecting South Korean President Lee Myung Bak’s (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Lee+Myung+Bak%3Fs&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) offer of a comprehensive reward for giving up nuclear weapons. The communist state said the nuclear issue should be negotiated directly with the U.S.
Philip Goldberg (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Philip+Goldberg&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), the U.S. envoy on implementing UN sanctions on North Korea, visited the United Arab Emirates on Oct. 1 to discuss the Asian country’s proliferation activities in the Middle East, State Department spokesman Ian Kelly (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Ian+Kelly&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) said.
The U.S. is urging private banks in Asia to block illegal financial transactions by North Korea as part of efforts to pressure the communist country to abandon nuclear-weapons development, the Associated Press reported yesterday.
To contact the reporter on this story: Bomi Lim (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Bomi+Lim&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) in Seoul at blim30@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: October 4, 2009 19:01 EDT

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=axHS8ks6bZoQ

Good to see China not ditching north korea for some sweet craps like "responsible power" or G20, G4, G2 whatever.

Ordie

10-05-2009, 04:05 AM

Good to see China not ditching north korea for some sweet craps like "responsible power" or G20, G4, G2 whatever.

You're wrong.

China is doing exactly what a responsible power should be doing. China, along with Japan, Russia, United States and South Korea, is the major stakeholder in regards to non-proliferation of North Korea's nuke program.

China is just as uneasy with a nuclear North Korea as the Americans and Japan. Unlike the other parties, China has a closer relationship with the North Koreans.

Ordie

10-05-2009, 03:11 PM

In and around Lhasa, division, mutual contempt — and sometimes violence — are a way of life, no matter the date.

[/URL]
By Claire Duffett — Special to GlobalPost Published: October 1, 2009 06:46 ET
Updated: October 1, 2009 15:19 ET

[URL="javascript:;"] (http://www.globalpost.com/bio/claire-duffett)

Editor's note: Oct. 1 is the 60th anniversary (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8284087.stm) of the People's Republic of China. To mark the occasion we have two dispatches from two very different corners of China — Tibet and Hong Kong (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china-and-its-neighbors/090930/chinas-60th-birthday-the-view-hong-kong). And from Beijing, Kathleen E. McLaughlin examines the event's unique security arrangements (http://www.globalpost.com/video/commerce/091001/prcfinal).

LHASA, Tibet — As I rode in a truck peeling around the curves of a narrow mountain road in southwestern Tibet, wheels squealed as the driver tried to pass a van. Minutes later the van sped past and cut in front of our car, almost forcing us over a cliff. “Bad Chinese drivers!” our Tibetan driver shouted, slamming his fist on the horn. The men pulled over and began a 10-minute shouting match.
This is the dislike shared by Tibetans and the Han Chinese who now outnumber them in Tibet’s capital of Lhasa. While such animosity is usually tempered it sometimes erupts, like on the road that September afternoon or in March 2008, when riots in Lhasa (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china-and-its-neighbors/090309/tibet-riots-one-year-later) prompted by police crackdowns on monks’ peaceful protests killed 18 Chinese civilians, according to state-run media. With Beijing celebrating the 60th anniversary of the People’s Republic of China Oct. 1, mutual contempt is running high.
<H3> (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china-and-its-neighbors/090916/how-obamas-tough-stand-china-playing-beijing)

Before the treacherous drive south, I visited the capital, where armed soldiers stand on every major street corner in Lhasa’s Old Town, one of the only remaining areas in the city still dominated by Tibetans. Looking like teenagers in baggy camouflage uniforms and full riot gear, soldiers patrolled the streets and scanned the city from its rooftops, prepared to quell any unrest.
</H3>

Undercover police — dressed as tourists and even monks — search for hidden subversives. When my boyfriend photographed a caravan of soldiers entering a monastery, the plain-clothes women beside him whipped out her police badge and ordered him to erase the photos.
Enhancing an already ubiquitous military presence, in late August the Chinese legislature expedited the passage of a law ambiguously allowing police to “take necessary measures” to prevent riots and expanding their rights to interrogate “suspicious persons.” It cited the Oct. 1 anniversary.

“I’m not as afraid of police on the street as I am of the secret police,” one Tibetan shopkeeper told me. “They’ve been doing a lot of cleaning up, which means people go missing.”
According to this same shopkeeper, police arrested two of his friends in sweeps that began after the 2008 riots. One was sentenced to 15 years and one to life in prison. The shopkeeper doesn’t know their alleged crimes, but insists they were good men who happened to have strong political beliefs.
No official statistics on the total number of political prisoners in Tibet exist, though the Chinese government said it arrested more than 4,000 Tibetans after the riots last year. Several rights groups say more than 1,000 of these people, mostly monks and nuns, remain missing.

In monasteries such as Ganden, built into a hillside about 30 miles outside Lhasa, armed soldiers now outnumber monks. When I visited, uniformed men smoked cigarettes on the roof of a barracks adjacent to the monastery. Police arrested and defrocked two-thirds of the monks at Ganden after last year’s protests and today about 500 soldiers and 300 monks live at the complex, said one 38-year-old monk. As of March 2008, new monks are banned from joining all monasteries in Tibet. The Chinese government also handpicks Tibet’s leaders, including the Panchen Lama, the second-highest lama in Tibetan Buddhism. The Dalai Lama has called such control of religious practices a ''cultural genocide.''
When I passed through Shigatse, Tibet’s second largest city, its main monastery Tashilhunpo was closed in anticipation for a visit by the Panchen Lama. In a region dominated by religious devotion, only about 100 people, mostly Chinese tourists, showed up to see him. When his white SUV drove up, His Holiness, the 19-year-old son of a communist party member, motioned a slight wave through his cracked window. The real Panchen Lama, chosen by Tibetan monks according to Buddhist tradition, was arrested in 1995 — when he was 6 — and remains missing.
Several Tibetan tour guides added that some monasteries are now populated almost entirely by Chinese-appointed monks. “They listen to what I tell tourists,” one guide said, adding that they report to authorities when guides acknowledge events like the destruction of monasteries during the Cultural Revolution that began in the 1960s.

In Beijing’s version of history, retold at the history museum in Lhasa — one of the only tourist sites in the city with no entrance fee — China liberated Tibetans from their enslavement by the ruling lamas. When Tibetans this year marked the 50th anniversary of the failed 1959 uprising against Chinese rule that killed more than 80,000 Tibetans, China officially named the event “Serf Emancipation Day” and commemorated it with a ceremony in front of Potala Palace, Tibet’s holiest monastery and the Dalai Lama’s former home.
Today Chinese and Tibetans in Lhasa are required to hang red banners outside their homes with slogans praising the People’s Republic. On the Oct. 1 anniversary, authorities will stage another ceremony in front of Potala with a handpicked number of Tibetan attendees. All other Tibetans will be required to stay home, even small business owners, to prevent spontaneous gatherings, said the shopkeeper. Chinese residents can carry on as they please, he added.
Many Tibetans criticize the chasm between their rights and those of their Chinese neighbors. Tibetans have many stereotypes for the Chinese, accusing them of being clever, greedy and “naughty.” Only Chinese can own large businesses in Lhasa, widening the wealth gap between the city’s two main ethnicities, complained one Tibetan artist who ran a small portrait gallery in an old building with low ceilings. Tibetan tour guides joke that they prefer Western tourists and fight over who has to lead the demanding and noisy Chinese groups.
One Chinese tourist, a Canadian originally from Hong Kong, said she didn’t personally experience any animosity from Tibetans during her eight-day tour through the province. She said she thinks Tibet should be free, then recanted, saying: “But they are poor — I don’t know if they could support themselves.”
The shopkeeper says the Chinese look down on Tibetans and, in turn, Tibetans look down right back. “They look at us like we smell, but they smell just as bad.”
Despite his contempt, the shopkeeper said he hopes the anniversary passes without incident and believes most Tibetans feel the same.
Summoning the composure of a Buddhist, he said: “On Oct. 1, we will go to the temple and pray for peace in all the world, not just in Tibet.”

Source:http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/china-and-its-neighbors/090925/chinas-60th-birthday-the-view-tibet

Ordie

10-05-2009, 04:13 PM

Bronze medal wont do for me. Gotta go for goldp-)

Once again the American wins the Gold. woot

Solvent

10-06-2009, 11:08 PM

Hangzhou bay bridges and Yangshan port

Pics from fyjs.cn

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http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6033/254012d3f6698763af764.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1157/254012896236ded408f69.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8821/2540125205e322c869fdd.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8821/2540125205e322c869fdd.jpg)
http://img4.imageshack.us/i/2540125205e322c869fdd.jpg/http://my.imageshack.us/edit.php

Karaahmetoglu

10-06-2009, 11:09 PM

Most of the workers for that project where Indian correct?

Derbedeu

10-06-2009, 11:10 PM

^^^ Nice pics Solvent. Those are some nice bridges.

Solvent

10-06-2009, 11:12 PM

^^^ Nice pics Solvent. Those are some nice bridges.

Thanks, some parts of the port are still under construction.

hulaku

10-07-2009, 12:09 AM

Most of the workers for that project where Indian correct?

Nope there are no Indian workers in China as far as I know.

Anyway nice bridge and nice pics.

TheMiddlePath

10-07-2009, 02:05 AM

Here is to those Human Rights advocates constantly bashing China on human rights.

China overtook 7 countries in the UNHD index (Moving up as usual).

http://i35.tinypic.com/eqpnw7.jpg

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2009_EN_Summary.pdf

Shuimo

10-08-2009, 12:49 PM

I dont think the world realise how rapidly China is growing. It's quite stunning how far they 've come.

Certainly the world does!
oh ****! the computer kerboard in the internet bar of Lhasa just sucks!

Solvent

10-08-2009, 01:29 PM

Certainly the world does!
oh ****! the computer kerboard in the internet bar of Lhasa just sucks!

Cherish you life, keep distance with computers

Enjoy you trip, Shuimo.

Solvent

10-12-2009, 01:50 AM

Chairman Mao said: the strength of people is powerful.

Folks from countryside show you some color see see. Homemade submarine.

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/4290/1252336110711.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4869/1252336165223.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7823/1252336213583.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6344/1252336249913.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8826/1252336318907.jpg

Ordie

10-12-2009, 10:58 AM

I wonder how will the Han Chinese react to the death sentence.

October 12, 2009
China Sets Sentences in Brawl Tied to Riot

By DAVID BARBOZA (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/david_barboza/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
SHANGHAI — China sentenced one man to death and another to life in prison on Saturday for their roles in a deadly toy factory brawl that was blamed for setting off riots in western China’s Xinjiang region this past summer, according to the official Xinhua news agency.
Two courts in southern Guangdong Province, where the toy factory was located, also sentenced nine other people to prison terms ranging from five to eight years for taking part in the fights in June, according to Xinhua (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-10/10/content_12205433.htm).
Xiao Jianhua was sentenced to death as the “principal instigator” in the factory melee that pitted a group of Han Chinese against a group of Turkic-speaking Uighurs (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/u/uighurs_chinese_ethnic_group/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) from the Xinjiang region.
Mr. Xiao and Xu Qiqi, who was sentenced to life in prison, were both convicted of manslaughter, Xinhua said.
The fight, at the Early Light Toy Factory in Shaoguan City, was incited by rumors that a group of Muslim Uighurs had raped two Han Chinese women. It raged at a factory dormitory through the early-morning hours of June 26, eventually leaving two Uighur men dead and, by some accounts, about 120 other people injured, most of them Uighurs.
The police said no woman was raped. The government said the fight was caused by a misunderstanding involving a woman who accidentally ventured into a dormitory room of Uighur men. According to the government’s account, a Han Chinese man later posted reports of rape on the Internet, setting off a bloody showdown.
On July 5, after reports of the brawl spread to Xinjiang, where most of the country’s Uighur Muslims live, demonstrations and riots broke out. There have been longstanding tensions there between Han Chinese, who have flooded into the area, and native Uighurs.
The government said the Uighurs went on a murderous rampage against Han Chinese, killing more than 200 people and leaving more than 1,000 wounded. Uighurs say the government has not fully accounted for Uighur deaths in the region; and some Han Chinese have said the death toll among their group was higher.
The government eventually put down the riots, but the region remains tense.
On Saturday, the Intermediate People’s Court in Shaoguan City sentenced the men involved in the brawl after a short trial, following their Sept. 23 indictments. In contrast to the accounts that indicated scores were hurt, the court said three other people were severely injured and six slightly injured.
The court said Saturday that Mr. Xiao and his accomplices beat the Uighur men with iron bars and “obstructed” medical workers from treating the injured.
Of the 11 men sentenced Saturday, three were Uighur men, who were given five to six years in prison.
Xinhua said several other men also faced indictment for their roles in the brawl.
Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/world/asia/12china.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=print

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 12:12 PM

I wonder how will the Han Chinese react to the death sentence.

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/world/asia/12china.html?_r=1&ref=world&pagewanted=print

ohshi-

Appeasement policy - China-style. p-)

I just fear that some of the more important and decision-making Uighurs (domestic and foreign) are already fanatic and hatefilled enough to not give a crap about this death sentence. As for most of the normal Uighurs, well I dont think they will be appeased with just this death sentence. The CCP must kill all Han-people in Xingjiang to appease them.

As for the Han. Well, there are some fanatics and xenophobes who will see this as a affront of the CCP against the 'rights of the Han population'. surely they will hate the government for this. But I think normal Han-people should be able to understand the reasoning behind this death sentence and keep quiet about it. Hoping that their restored moral superiority in this case could prevent further turmoil.

The CCP could profit from these sentences. Every oppressive action against the Uighurs will gain more support from the Han-populance because they will see them as a sign of a 'fair rule of law' or late 'satisfaction'; after all the CCP also killed some Han for stirring up violence between the minority.

Solvent

10-12-2009, 12:37 PM

I wonder how will the Han Chinese react to the death sentence.

The trial is still going on. It's too early to react.

acosta

10-12-2009, 12:51 PM

Solvent

10-12-2009, 12:57 PM

Hongjian,Solvent,

why do you guys always fall into that dirty trap by responding a stup!d post like "how will the Han Chinese react to the death sentence"?

it's purely legal and justice thing, none of "uighur and han" things. and all criminals should be punished, fairly and in the means of justice.

Come on, it's fun part of life on forum. He trolls, and we kick back. Why so serious?

acosta

10-12-2009, 01:03 PM

Come on, it's fun part of life on forum. He trolls, and we kick back. Why so serious?

wow, you earn my vote in next round.

bonne chance~

hulaku

10-12-2009, 01:12 PM

A Chinese court has sentenced six people to death for murder and other crimes during ethnic riots in Xinjiang region in July, state media have said.

Nearly 200 people were killed during the riots between ethnic Uighurs and members of China's dominant Han group.

A seventh person received a life sentence, the official Xinhua news agency said.

These are the first convictions relating to the riots - the worst ethnic clashes in China for decades.

The six sentenced to death at the Intermediate People's Court in Urumqi - Xinjiang's capital - were reported to be Abdukerim Abduwayit, Gheni Yusup, Abdulla Mettohti, Adil Rozi, Nureli Wuxiu'er, and Alim Metyusup.

As well as murder, state media reported that they were convicted of other crimes ranging from arson, leading mobs and causing "economic loss".

Rising tensions
Tayirejan Abulimit was given the lesser punishment of life imprisonment because he admitted to charges of murder and robbery and helped the police capture Alim Metyusup.

The government says most of those killed in the riots were Han Chinese, but the exile activist group the World Uighur Congress (WUC) claims many Uighurs were also killed.

Dilxat Raxit, a spokesman for the WUC, said the trial had been a sham.
"The whole process lacked transparency and was unfair. They were not given any kind of legal aid," he told ******* news agency.
"Uighurs have no protection under the law."

A protest by Uighurs in Urumqi erupted into violence on 5 July, leaving at least 197 people killed and another 1,700 injured.

Shops were smashed and vehicles set alight and passers-by set upon by rioters.

'Heavy police presence'
Hundreds of people were detained after the violence and, according to Xinhua, 21 people have been charged.

The BBC's Quentin Sommerville says 14 people are still waiting to be tried.
"It is a very long way from Beijing but it is one of the most heavily policed parts of the country," our correspondent says.

"The security forces are really keeping the peace between these two ethnic populations in that part of China."

Further ethnic unrest in Xinjiang was provoked in August by a wave of attacks with hypodermic syringes that many Han blamed on Uighurs.

Growing tensions
The initial protest in July was over an earlier fight in a toy factory in Guangdong province - on the other side of China - that left two Uighurs dead and 14 others seriously injured.

On Saturday a court in Guangdong sentenced Xiao Jianhua to death and Xu Qiqi to a life sentence for their roles in the factory brawl.

Nine others were jailed for sentences of between five to eight years for the violence at the Xuri Toy Factory.

Tensions between the mainly-Muslim Uighurs of Xinjiang and Han have been growing in recent years. Millions of Han have moved to the region in recent decades.

Many Uighurs want more autonomy and rights for their culture and religion - Islam - than is allowed by China's strict centrist rule.

According to a government white paper on Xinjiang, released last month, the July riots were caused by Uighur separatists promoting an independent "East Turkestan".

It also noted that during the violence 331 shops and 1,325 motor vehicles were destroyed or burned with many public facilities also attacked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8302140.stm

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Hongjian,Solvent,

why do you guys always fall into that dirty trap by responding a stup!d post like "how will the Han Chinese react to the death sentence"?

it's purely legal and justice thing, none of "uighur and han" things. and all criminals should be punished, fairly and in the means of justice.

of course. it SHOULD be treated as a normal legal case. But I think Ordie's question is alright, because such cases are laden with ethnic tensions, because the hate runs pretty deep for some people of both sides.

Ordie

10-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 01:58 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8302140.stm

Thats a pile of Bull. Again some ethnic groups claim to be exempted by the 'chinese law', which doesent even exists in the first place, analogue to the rediculous claim of the Tibetans that the Chinese particularly aimed at destroying THEIR culture during curtural revolution. Which is also a pile of Bull, since pretty much everyone was raped at that time, not only Tibetans.

Noone in China enjoys 'protection of law' since law doesent even exists for political sensitive cases. I believe the Han people who where sentenced to death also didnt get their lawyers and an fair and open process.

WUC is talking crap again. Everyone is oppressed in China, not only their poor minority, so they should step back.

sad thing is just, westerners tend to believe their funny claims more than the real facts. what a shame.

Solvent

10-12-2009, 02:09 PM

From what I see, it is a test for the Chinese legal system and whether or not they can deliberate without political and public pressure.

Regardless of the outcome, the damage is done in terms of inter racial relations between Chinese Citizens.

The legal system is always under the influence of political and public pressure.

But since the case is so sensitive, the trial is really a hot butt issue. Let's us how the gov walk the fine line this time.

The damage is always there. The tension between ethnic groups has been going on for long time. The gov used to keep one eye closed on it. Right now it is the time to rethink the minority policy.

Solvent

10-12-2009, 02:19 PM

sad thing is just, westerners tend to believe their funny claims more than the real facts. what a shame.

The funny thing about the blind charge is that more they are, more patriotic the people will be. Remember the "Anti-CNN"?

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 02:23 PM

The funny thing about the blind charge is that more they are, more patriotic the people will be. Remember the "Anti-CNN"?

speaking of patriotism: good article to update this relevant thread.

http://www.teachabroadchina.com/why-chinese-patriotism-is-to-be-respected-and-feared/

Why Chinese Patriotism is to be Respected and Feared

Posted by Robert Vance on April 25th, 2008
“My father was sent to a camp to be re-educated and my uncle went to prison because they knew someone who the government did not like,” one of my close friends told me recently. She explained to me that because of ill treatment and poor nutrition, her father developed severe stomach problems in the camp which have remained with him into middle age. Her father and her uncle, of course,were detained and released long ago while Chairman Mao still ‘held the reins’ of power over the PRC. When I asked my friend if her father held a grudge against the Chinese government because of his unjust detainment, I was startled by her answer. She replied that while her father viewed his detainment as a serious mistake by the government, he was never resentful because he believed that such ‘errors in judgement’ were an integral part of the growing process for the new PRC. She explained to me that her father is not a Communist but that he greatly admires “what Chairman Mao did for China” and that he was more than willing to sacrifice his time and his health for the well-being of the country.
This fierce patriotism is the ’superglue’ that has held China together during the last 60 years. It is what has prevented people from losing faith in their government and in themselves during periods of intense starvation, political upheaval, and national turmoil. The Chinese patriotism in fact a powerful phenemenon that transcends Chairman Mao, the CCP, and the creation of the PRC in 1949. This patriotism emanates from the land itself: the mountains and valleys, the rivers and the lakes, the forests and the deserts, the rolling countryside and the sprawling cities. It is a feeling that is based on thousands of years of history, a feeling that has been passed down from generation to generation. This patriotism, which sometimes seems almost tangible, is the only form of religion that most Chinese people have ever adhered to. They worship their country and treat her with the respect that other cultures would bestow upon a ‘god.’ Of course, the principal way in which they feel they can show that respect an honor is through an unwavering allegiance to their government.

In many ways, I do respect this Chinese patriotism which is ’second to none’ in the modern world. The patriotic facade that is ‘put on’ by many Chinese people is often harsh and defensive. However, I have been able to break through that ‘wall’ and discover that behind the rhetoric there is a deep sense by Chinese people that the survival of their country in such a hostile world has been ‘nothing short of miraculous.’ So many things in China have changed but the love of country and a steadfast trust in the government are the only ideologies that Chinese people have been able to ‘hang onto’ in the past 60 years. Without this patriotism, it is highly unlikely that the PRC would have survived and continued on its current path of development. It is no wonder then that Chinese people are so defensive when people attack their government and their system of life. They feel as if their foundation and their mainstay for existence is being ‘ripped out from under them’ by the foreign media.
While I admire this patriotism and how it unifies China, I also fear it. A Chinese friend once told me that “every man, woman, and child” would be glad to take up arms for China should the Taiwan conflict ever escalate. I believe him. Patriotism is driven into Chinese children from a very early age. They grow up believing that there is nothing more important in life than their country and its interests. I would pity the country that had the collective patriotism and will of the Chinese people focused upon it in war; it would be like a military grade laser beam being focused on a single grain of wheat. The results would be catastrophic. It would be foolish to underestimate the strength of the Chinese in a conflict. For this reason, the Chinese government in recent days has attempted to gently ‘calm the masses’ as they have descended upon Carrefour and protested the comments made by CNN’s Jack Cafferty. The government does not want to dampen the patriotic spirit but at the same time understands the danger in allowing the protests to go too far.

While it is easy to imagine how Chinese patriotism would influence the outcome of a war in China, it is more difficult to imagine the Chinese with guns in their hands. The Chinese people are peaceful; they have demonstrated that quality recently during their protests at Carrefour. They just want to be heard. One of my students asked me today if I “thought it was wrong for the Chinese people to ask CNN for an apology.” I thought about it for a moment and realized that the Chinese people have this right. CNN has the right to refuse the request as well but there is no reason why the Chinese people cannot ask a news organization to retract a statement that they feel was detrimental to their culture. I just hope that they can make these protests based on their own informed opinions and patriotism and not on what the government is saying through the media. If that is the case, then the Chinese people should cherish their right to protest and do it proudly.

of course highly controverse, but thats this thread is all about. p-)

Ordie

10-12-2009, 03:18 PM

wow, you earn my vote in next round.

bonne chance~

acosta,

chill.

We're having a good debate. If we were to meet in real life, I'd buy you a beer and argue just the same.

It's a good way to learn.

Solvent

10-12-2009, 03:22 PM

speaking of patriotism: good article to update this relevant thread.

http://www.teachabroadchina.com/why-chinese-patriotism-is-to-be-respected-and-feared/

of course highly controverse, but thats this thread is all about. p-)

Good read. Not mean to be corny. But I am touched. :oops:

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 03:37 PM

Good read. Not mean to be corny. But I am touched. :oops:

this article reminds me a bit of Yue Fei's story.

"Return me my rivers and mountains!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFQsk4yciDY&feature=player_profilepage

probably best describtion of Chinese patriotism.

being tortured and killed by your own emperor you sworn loyalty to, but never fail in serving the empire.

Lyrics:

歌手：屠洪刚专辑：精忠报国
狼烟起江山北望
龙起卷马长嘶剑气如霜
心似黄河水茫茫
二十年纵横间谁能相抗
恨欲狂长刀所向
多少手足忠魂埋骨它乡
何惜百死报家国
忍叹惜更无语血泪满眶
马蹄南去人北望
人北望草青黄尘飞扬
我愿守土复开疆
堂堂中国要让四方来贺

Dedication and Loyalty to the Country

When the fiery smoke rises I look at the vast land towards the north，

the roaring of the dragons and neighing of the horses are echoed by the chilling sword，

my heart is as boundless as the water of the yellow river,

who could challenge the power in the past twenty years

hatred is driving me towards madness,

where my wide sword points,

countless brothers with loyal souls buried their bones in unfamiliar lands,

all would die a hundred times to protect the country and the land,

I sigh with the deepest regret, yet I could not find a word to say, only blood and tear fill my eyes

the horses runs towards the south, but the people look towards the north,

towards the north, the grass are just dry and yellow, with dusts flying high

I am willing to station here and re-claim my land

the mighty China should be paid tributes and respect

Ordie

10-12-2009, 03:39 PM

being tortured and killed by your own emperor you sworn loyalty to, but never fail in serving the empire.

Blind loyalty

Solvent

10-12-2009, 04:06 PM

How about this one? National Mourning for Sichuan earthquake 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiaZmT7WuOQ&feature=related

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 04:13 PM

Blind loyalty

Well, Yue Fei is THE role model of the brave warrior in chinese culture, who is serving his country with the utmost loyalty, despite being hated by the guys he has sworn to protect. And in reality, it was not directly the emperor who executed him, but two traitors at the imperial court who denounced him befor the emperor because they were against his reconquista campaign against the invading Jurchen tribes and favored a appeasement policy by sending the Jurchen leader the daughter of the emperor as wife. Yue fei was tortured and executed by their 'command' because he stood against their plans.
This lead to the Chinese proverb 'In the whole chinese history there is always a lack of everything, save traitors'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Fei

But whatever. This is just a further prove that we have lots of deep-rooted tendencies in our culture that is just incompatible with western philosophy and ideals.
If China really wants to become a democracy, we have to destroy our whole culture again including burning of books, brainwashing, 1984-styled new-speak introduction to root out any 'anti-democratic and blind-loyalty supporting'-proverbs etc. to denazify our entire Chinese being.

The result would be a democratic China that is just not China anymore - just a bad copy of the USA without any culture, wich would be even worse than the US in this cultural regards.

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 04:22 PM

How about this one? National Mourning for Sichuan earthquake 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiaZmT7WuOQ&feature=related

Random democratic idiots would say that this is a sign of a gigantic brainwashing campaign by dem evul Chinky Commie Party.
Of course the more refined, civilized and natural western reaction to an earthquake would be to hate your country and stone your leaders, not to support them in their relief-work rofl /troll-post ends

Well. I can see that Germans for example would rage about the mass shoutings of 'Zhonguo Jia You!!!'. It reminds them of choir shouting 'Heil Hitler' (really happened in german forums - I, for my part, raged and baawwed at the same time).

Our culture and histories are just too different to coexist peacefully. Live with it.

Ordie

10-12-2009, 04:49 PM

How about this one? National Mourning for Sichuan earthquake 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiaZmT7WuOQ&feature=related

The Sichuan Earthquake woken up the dormant and surpressed Chinese civil society. Where individuals, independent from government restrictions, took the initiative and volunteered money, resources and themselves to help the victims.

Given from my experiences in China, it seems that the people had to be constantly reminded of thier patriotism. That is something that never happens in the US.

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 05:04 PM

The Sichuan Earthquake woken up the dormant and surpressed Chinese civil society. Where individuals, independent from government restrictions, took the initiative and volunteered money, resources and themselves to help the victims.

Given from my experiences in China, it seems that the people had to be constantly reminded of thier patriotism. That is something that never happens in the US.

Thats normal. Remember how China got the nuke? Right. In the midst of insane political campaigns against intellectuals, oversea-chinese intellectuals who worked on the US Nuke-Program, travelled back to China to help their motherland in its nuclear ambition.

Or how established patriotic Hongkongnese businessmens established a network during China's Isolation to supply the Communist Government with Knowhow and Technology despite knowing about the horrendous atrocities comitted by them against their own people. Chinese Patriotism IS highly irrational by western understanding. Dont try to understand us.

My emperor killed my family? Well, I still love him!rofl

no need to be reminded that one was, is and will always be the subject of the mythical yellow emperor. thats the source of everything.

Solvent

10-12-2009, 05:04 PM

Given from my experiences in China, it seems that the people had to be constantly reminded of thier patriotism. That is something that never happens in the US.

Erecting too long will damage the organ. :)

Ordie

10-12-2009, 05:28 PM

Hongjian

10-12-2009, 05:44 PM

Professor Tsien Hsue- shen was deported to China on the premise of being a Communist.

Over the objections of the US Navy and others in the US.

He later became the father of the Chinese rocket program.

He also wrote a paper claiming new methods and process could increase agricultural production by twenty times. This led to Mao's 'Great Leap Forward', resulting in the death of millions from starvation.

Oh. you're right. That guy was just frustrated with the US. OK.

Funny thing is, that this claimed '20x increase' of productivity was actually in some sort achievable by the input of a different patriotic Intellectual in the midst of cultural revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Longping

Professor Yuan Long Ping, one of the two 'Pings' who are regarded as saints and saviors of China.

Ssandro

10-13-2009, 10:10 AM

But whatever. This is just a further prove that we have lots of deep-rooted tendencies in our culture that is just incompatible with western philosophy and ideals.
If China really wants to become a democracy, we have to destroy our whole culture again including burning of books, brainwashing, 1984-styled new-speak introduction to root out any 'anti-democratic and blind-loyalty supporting'-proverbs etc. to denazify our entire Chinese being.

The result would be a democratic China that is just not China anymore - just a bad copy of the USA without any culture, wich would be even worse than the US in this cultural regards.
Japan inherited much of its culture from china, its culture is even less western than china, yet it's democratic, its gdp per capita is over ten times higher than china's, and it's not a bad copy of america - it still has a unique culture

Thats normal. Remember how China got the nuke? Right. In the midst of insane political campaigns against intellectuals, oversea-chinese intellectuals who worked on the US Nuke-Program, travelled back to China to help their motherland in its nuclear ambition.

Or how established patriotic Hongkongnese businessmens established a network during China's Isolation to supply the Communist Government with Knowhow and Technology despite knowing about the horrendous atrocities comitted by them against their own people. Chinese Patriotism IS highly irrational by western understanding. Dont try to understand us.

My emperor killed my family? Well, I still love him!rofl

Just because some people once acted irrationally doesn't mean that you have to. If people behave stupidly (in reality just a lack of knowledge or desperation), then that's nothing special which is inaccessible to westerners. This is common in every country. If you jump off a cliff, that equally stupid in every culture.

plato

10-13-2009, 11:01 AM

Thats normal. Remember how China got the nuke? Right. In the midst of insane political campaigns against intellectuals, oversea-chinese intellectuals who worked on the US Nuke-Program, travelled back to China to help their motherland in its nuclear ambition.

Or how established patriotic Hongkongnese businessmens established a network during China's Isolation to supply the Communist Government with Knowhow and Technology despite knowing about the horrendous atrocities comitted by them against their own people. Chinese Patriotism IS highly irrational by western understanding. Dont try to understand us.

My emperor killed my family? Well, I still love him!rofl

no need to be reminded that one was, is and will always be the subject of the mythical yellow emperor. thats the source of everything.
"Remember how China got the nuke?", yeah, never mind the Russians. They did nothing for the CCP?

Which overseas Chinese who worked on US nuke program?

"Chinese Patriotism IS highly irrational by western understanding. Dont try to understand us." Yes, some Chinese patriotism is indeed very irrational, but that doesn't mean people (not just the west) should not try to understand this irrational patriotism.

Hongjian

10-13-2009, 02:24 PM

Japan inherited much of its culture from china, its culture is even less western than china, yet it's democratic, its gdp per capita is over ten times higher than china's, and it's not a bad copy of america - it still has a unique culture

And still, Japan is by far not a western styled Democracy. I even doubt that it was a 'real' democracy at all before the landslide election and the common frustration of the populance with the ruling Liberal Democrats, who reigned over the country with a strange mix of highly undemocratic elitist functionaries and a clan-based administrational oligarchy of 'guanxi'-connected bureaucrats, where your family connections where more worth than your meritocratian skills or democratic rights. And Japan is by far the most 'democratic' nation in asia.

EDIT: (And even the unsurprising, but impressive Landslide election in Japan is not a prove of 'democratic maturity' for me. I would interpret it rather as a typical case of a Dynasty that ruled a country over more than five decades has suddenly lost its mandate of heaven. The future of the new government will show wether Japan can break through their conservative chinese-influenced political culture.)

Dont get me started on the other 'asian tigers' and major economic nations like Singapore (development autocracy with draconical legalist laws), S.Korea (pretty much like Japan - just with suicide generating hereditary enmity between politicians, parties and fractions over minor political frictions) and Taiwan (KMT vs. Chen Shui Bien's corruption case - victors justice and 'political murder'. Chaos 'Democracy' FTW!!!). None of these countries are real democratic in western sense.
None of them has a healthy constructive debating culture like western nations. Loosers of the continuous political power-struggle that characterizes a healthy democracy cant accept defeat and resort into blocking every decision out of personal interest and injured honour - not for the sake of the nation or genuine scepticism.

Only with the right of freely expressing the opinion and free press, doesent make a country a real democracy. Lots of african dictatorships and kleptocracies allow free press but are anything beside a democracy. And not to mention well working progressive autocracies with free press like Singapore...

Basically they just put a democratic 'hat' over an ancient, chinese-influenced, hierarchical/monarchal structure based on king-vassal loyality and clan-affiliation.
These asian 'democracies' are really too 'Chinese'-influenced to become real democracies in western sense. Like Germany's federal representative democracy or not to mention switzerland's direct democracy for example.
There is simply a lack of culture for independent and critical thinking, constructive disputes (without killing each other in the process and accepting defeat) and (most importantly) lack of cultural-anchored disrespect towards authority that enabled critical thinking in the first place.

Just because some people once acted irrationally doesn't mean that you have to. If people behave stupidly (in reality just a lack of knowledge or desperation), then that's nothing special which is inaccessible to westerners. This is common in every country. If you jump off a cliff, that equally stupid in every culture.Like I stated numerous times before. Noone can free himselfs from being a slave of one's own culture. Your absolutely correct identification of them being utter 'stupidity' (in western understanding) cannot change the fact that people will continue to act according to these stupid irrationalities.

Could western people just stop thinking according to their western culture and education? Absolutely No. Because they think it's the truth and it's right. Are they able to prove its rightness, beside only axiomatically stating that what they believe in is the only truth because every other westerner agreed on it for some reason? (or even just because God agreed, dont bother him about it). Obviously no...

Now translate this to the mentioned Chinese self-conception...

Mutual understanding is futile without severely infringing each others fundamental principles.

Hongjian

10-13-2009, 02:39 PM

"Remember how China got the nuke?", yeah, never mind the Russians. They did nothing for the CCP?

Read about the fanatical personal enmity between Mao and Stalin again.

Stalin practically hated China because of Mao. He would rather nuke her than to help her with nuclear technology.
Nice try though - I know that westerners (or western influenced Chinese) would have hard time to believe that allegedly 'communist brothers' would hate each other so much because of a 'impassionate' hate between two mens of great ambition.

Which overseas Chinese who worked on US nuke program?

"Chinese Patriotism IS highly irrational by western understanding. Dont try to understand us." Yes, some Chinese patriotism is indeed very irrational, but that doesn't mean people (not just the west) should not try to understand this irrational patriotism.As for question one; Ordie posted it to correct my post.

Two: Stated above.

Chinese and western culture, resp. self-conceptions, are like oil and water. What Chinese would worthship, Westeners would hate like the devil itself.
Just like the relationship between Islam and Western women-emancipation.

A violent clash of culture (yeah yeah, i know) is inenvitable. No matter what gullible multiculturalists are claiming.

LazerLordz

10-16-2009, 09:52 AM

Ordie

10-16-2009, 02:25 PM

Solvent

10-16-2009, 03:04 PM

Singapore is a non-muslim country with an ethnic Chinese majority within an ocean of Malay/Indonesian Muslims.

Singapore is operated at a Fortune 500 business that uses social engineering methods to ensure that Singapore demographics is unchanged.

Housing policies to deter ethnic neighborhoods from emerging.
Not allowing guest workers from Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines the privilage of permanent residency (with exception of China, Hong Kong)
Big bonuses for having large families.

Yeah, China couldn't care less if you want to be Chinese state. But if you try to keep distance due to that, it is your loss. Business will always give to the one with positive approach.

Solvent

10-16-2009, 03:27 PM

Brazil and China have been praised for their efforts to tackle hunger, in a development charity's report released to coincide with UN World Food Day.

But the ActionAid report criticises India and others countries for not doing enough to alleviate the problem.
The agency also ranked rich countries, saying Luxembourg is trying hardest to end global hunger, while the US and New Zealand rank bottom.
Studies estimate that one billion people are malnourished globally.
That figure, given in studies by a number of think tanks and aid agencies, represents roughly one in seven of the world's population.
ActionAid's report, Hunger Free, says hunger is "a choice that we make, not a force of nature".
"Hunger begins with inequality," it says, and then grows because of "perverse policies that treat food purely as a commodity, not a right".
"It is because of these policies that most developing countries no longer grow enough to feed themselves, and that their farmers are amongst the hungriest and poorest people in the world," says ActionAid.
'Unacceptable'
Among the developing countries ranked, Brazil wins the top spot, with the aid agency praising President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's support for land reform and community kitchens for the poor.
ActionAid said Brazil's success shows "what can be achieved when the state has both resources and political will to tackle hunger".
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46545000/gif/_46545530_global_hunger_map466.gif

China is also praised for cutting the number of hungry by 58 million in 10 years through strong state support for smallholder farmers.
But the report criticises economically liberal India where, it says, 30 million people have been added to the ranks of the hungry since the mid-1990s and 46% of children are underweight.
It says hunger exists in India not because there is insufficient food, but because people cannot access it, and that the exploitation of natural resources has led to "horrific displacements" of people, pushing many into poverty.
"When people are already on the brink of starvation this is simply unacceptable," it says.
The report said some progress had been made, with a scheme to protect rural employment in the case of drought, but it needed to be implemented more effectively.
Neighbouring Bangladesh is praised for reducing the number of chronically food-insecure people from 40 million to 27 million in the past 10 years and for improving childhood nutrition in the past two decades.
But the report says Bangladesh has a long way to go to reduce overall malnutrition and build a sustainable agricultural system.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif This scandal could easily be ended if all governments took determined action http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif

Anne Jellema, Action Aid

The Democratic Republic of Congo is at the bottom of the list, with 76% of the population listed "chronically hungry".
The cost of foods is growing in the country, there has been very low investment in agriculture and the government offers no social protection.
Robert Dekker, the World Food Programme's (WFP) DR Congo director, told the BBC that Congolese people live almost exclusively on a diet of cassava flour, which is low in nutritional value.
He said health experts recommend adults eat 2,100 kilocalories a day for a healthy diet but in Congo the average is 1,650 a day.
The BBC's Tomas Fessy, in the capital Kinshasa, says decades of war and neglect have meant there is no proper agricultural infrastructure in the country, while a poor road system makes it hard for people to reach food supplies.
In Ethiopia, Action Aid says famine is "once again stalking" the country, as a result of continuing drought, a growing population and damaging land policies.
Although the government has begun to introduce reforms, 7.5 million Ethiopians are classed as "food insecure".
Biofuel 'invasion'
ActionAid also assessed richer, developed countries, praising those that have invested in agriculture in the developing world but criticising others that have promoted biofuels which, the report says, have displaced food crops.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44623000/jpg/_44623241_palmoil_afp_226_170body.jpg Western demand for biofuel takes up valuable land in developing countries

It says Tanzania, Mozambique, Ghana and Ethiopia have seen an "invasion" of agrofuel producers from the West, using up land that could be used to grow food.
The rankings are weighted to account for what ActionAid calls effort and progress, not just outcomes - that is how the winner in the rich country list is tiny Luxembourg, with all the Nordic countries close behind.
New Zealand is at the bottom of the rich country list, accused of making particularly harsh cuts in its official aid to agriculture.
And the US is second from last, described as "miserly" in its aid to developing world farmers.
"The US owes a huge climate debt to developing countries and it must not delay in agreeing to find the finance to help developing countries adapt to climate change, and in signing up to a just global deal," said the report. ActionAid said the level of hunger in the world is "perhaps one of the most shameful achievements of recent history" and that there is no reason for anyone to go without food.
"Every six seconds a child dies from hunger," said the charity's policy director, Anne Jellema.
"This scandal could easily be ended if all governments took determined action."http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8309979.stm

Ordie

10-16-2009, 03:28 PM

Yeah, China couldn't care less if you want to be Chinese state. But if you try to keep distance due to that, it is your loss. Business will always give to the one with positive approach.

But in the Singapore model, the Board of Directors are its 5 million citizens who elect a CEO and executive staff, governed by the rule of law.

P.Koschei

10-16-2009, 03:54 PM

In the above light, we might having the best potential to break out of this Chinese-influenced political culture because of the relative melting pot and intermingling of cultures here in the long term, not to mention a slow evolution of a Singaporean culture that may not be entirely "chinese-based".

In fact, we're not even a Chinese state.. and we should always remember that we should never allow ourselves to become one.

Hah! I love it when political correctness and wishful thinking blinds people to reality. Singapore a melting pot of cultures? Hah, only according to Ang Mo visitors, the ministry of tourism, and Singapore's own home grown hippies. Ask any Chinese Aunty or Uncle what they really think of the Malays and the Indians or vice versa. Not so much of a melting pot as a chunky mix of people who would rather not live next to each other but don't have much choice. What is Singaporean political culture if not Chinese? What could it become? Malay political culture? Indian political culture? Don't make me laugh. It's a one party state governed by Lee Kuan Yew and family primarily for the benefit of it's Chinese majority. Oh sure, the pretty words coming out of gahmen's mouth say it's a cosmopolitan international city representative of Asia. These are lies.

I don't know what it is that drives the apuneh to think that Singapore is anything other than a Chinese enclave in the heart of Southeast Asia. Oh wait, I do, they want to import more of their countrymen to displace the locals and take the place over. :-*$

plato

10-16-2009, 03:55 PM

Solvent

10-16-2009, 04:01 PM

Some people tend to forget that China has one of the largest trade SURPLUS in the world, and that is contributing to her growth (not saying all her growth came from export). So, who is the one that need to be the "one with positive approach."?

We are always positive, no need to mention about it. Read this.

China auto sales jump 78 percent in September
By ELAINE KURTENBACH
SHANGHAI

China's vehicle sales vaulted 78 percent in September from a year earlier, widening a lead over the U.S. as the world's top auto market, with sales spurred by tax cuts and government stimulus spending.

Overall vehicle sales totaled 1.33 million units, while passenger car sales climbed 84 percent to 1.02 million units, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers reported.

Total sales for the first nine months of the year rose to 9.66 million units, up 34 percent from a year earlier, it said.

September was the seventh month that China's auto sales, boosted by tax cuts and subsidies as part of Beijing's stimulus, exceeded 1.1 million units. Sales in smaller cities have been booming as automakers rush to woo first-time car buyers with new models,

China leads the world in total 2009 sales, with the U.S. in second place with January-September sales at about 7.85 million units. U.S. sales plunged 41 percent from a year earlier in September to 746,000, following a summer buying spree driven by big discounts to consumers.

Given the weakness in other major markets, global automakers are looking to China to drive revenues amid sluggish demand elsewhere.

General Motors saw total sales for January-September surge 55 percent to nearly 1.3 million vehicles. Ford Motor Co. said sales rose 32 percent in the first nine months of the year to 316,639 units, with sales in September jumping nearly 80 percent from the year before.

Other foreign automakers have reported similar, hefty double-digit sales growth.

China, with 1.3 billion people, has long been expected to overtake the United States as the biggest vehicle market. But the U.S. economic slump hastened that shift by depressing American sales while China surged ahead.

"The China market we expect to surpass the U.S. market in size for both the right and the wrong reasons," General Motors Co.'s CEO Fritz Henderson told reporters in Shanghai on Tuesday.

Henderson predicted a "very modest recovery" in 2010 for the U.S. market.

But China, he said, would continue to enjoy very strong growth.

"The China market has benefited from economic stimulus that has generated primary demand. We see substantial opportunities in product-driven, competition-driven growth," he said.

And she is going to be bigger.

LazerLordz

10-16-2009, 04:01 PM

Hah! I love it when political correctness and wishful thinking blinds people to reality. Singapore a melting pot of cultures? Hah, only according to Ang Mo visitors, the ministry of tourism, and Singapore's own home grown hippies. Ask any Chinese Aunty or Uncle what they really think of the Malays and the Indians or vice versa. Not so much of a melting pot as a chunky mix of people who would rather not live next to each other but don't have much choice. What is Singaporean political culture if not Chinese? What could it become? Malay political culture? Indian political culture? Don't make me laugh. It's a one party state governed by Lee Kuan Yew and family primarily for the benefit of it's Chinese majority. Oh sure, the pretty words coming out of gahmen's mouth say it's a cosmopolitan international city representative of Asia. These are lies.

I don't know what it is that drives the apuneh to think that Singapore is anything other than a Chinese enclave in the heart of Southeast Asia. Oh wait, I do, they want to import more of their countrymen to displace the locals and take the place over. :-*$

Lies? I'm a Singaporean born and bred here, my views are shaped by my own experiences here. Maybe you might want to ease off on the polemic criticism..

Yes, we have an ethnic Chinese majority, but it remains to be seen if our political culture retains this flavor for the long term. There's nothing wrong with a bit of a thought exercise about the evolution of political culture vis-a-vis in what Ordie brought up to be "Chinese states".

plato

10-16-2009, 04:02 PM

We are always positive, no need to mention about it. Read this.

And she is going to be bigger.

is bigger always better?

LazerLordz

10-16-2009, 04:05 PM

Yeah, China couldn't care less if you want to be Chinese state. But if you try to keep distance due to that, it is your loss. Business will always give to the one with positive approach.

We're always good for business, no worries about that. p-)

plato

10-16-2009, 04:05 PM

Can Chinese individuals afford private cars? Yes, they can.

Can China as a nation afford private cars? No, she can't.

LazerLordz

10-16-2009, 04:06 PM

Singapore is a non-muslim country with an ethnic Chinese majority within an ocean of Malay/Indonesian Muslims.

Singapore is operated at a Fortune 500 business that uses social engineering methods to ensure that Singapore demographics is unchanged.

Housing policies to deter ethnic neighborhoods from emerging.
Not allowing guest workers from Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines the privilage of permanent residency (with exception of China, Hong Kong)
Big bonuses for having large families.

Hence, we should be sensitive in how we portray ourselves to be.. within Tanah Melayu..

I could point out that example #2 is not entirely accurate. ;)

Solvent

10-16-2009, 04:08 PM

Can Chinese individuals afford private cars? Yes, they can.

Can China as a nation afford private cars? No, she can't.

What are you talking about?

Solvent

10-16-2009, 04:12 PM

We're always good for business, no worries about that. p-)

Let's see then. :)

plato

10-16-2009, 04:22 PM

OCTOBER 15, 2009 Chinese Reserves Hit $2.273 Trillion
Article Comments more in Economy »
BY ANDREW BATSON
BEIJING -- China's reserves of foreign exchange continued to swell in the third quarter, figures published by the central bank show, an indication that foreign money is still flowing into an economy that rebounded quickly from the global crisis.

The People's Bank of China said its foreign-exchange reserves, which were already by far the world's largest, climbed to $2.273 trillion at the end of September, from $2.132 trillion at the end of June.

China's central bank adds to the reserves when it buys up foreign currency coming into the country -- either as export earnings or investment flows -- in ............

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125549031253384213.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories

Ordie

10-16-2009, 04:25 PM

We are always positive, no need to mention about it. Read this.

And she is going to be bigger.

I find it ironic that Chinese urban planners are trying to emulate the US transportation land use models of the 1950's and 60's

While American urban planners are trying to emulate high density mixed use pedestrian and bicycle friendly neighborhoods akin to the Hutongs in Beijing.

P.Koschei

10-16-2009, 04:25 PM

Lies? I'm a Singaporean born and bred here, my views are shaped by my own experiences here. Maybe you might want to ease off on the polemic criticism..

Yes, we have an ethnic Chinese majority, but it remains to be seen if our political culture retains this flavor for the long term. There's nothing wrong with a bit of a thought exercise about the evolution of political culture vis-a-vis in what Ordie brought up to be "Chinese states".

The only way that will happen is if Chinese become the minority in Singapore. The sooner Mandarin becomes the primary lingua franca of Singapore, the better.

Solvent

10-16-2009, 04:26 PM

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125549031253384213.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories

No worries, we are going to buy your missile technologies from your country with the money.

plato

10-16-2009, 04:27 PM

I find it ironic that Chinese urban planners are trying to emulate the US transportation land use models of the 1950's and 60's

While American urban planners are trying to emulate high density mixed use pedestrian and bicycle friendly neighborhoods akin to the Hutongs in Beijing.

I was in Tokyo for 5 days before I headed to China in late May. It was an eye opener to see how the Japanese park their cars.

Solvent

10-16-2009, 04:28 PM

I find it ironic that Chinese urban planners are trying to emulate the US transportation land use models of the 1950's and 60's

While American urban planners are trying to emulate high density mixed use pedestrian and bicycle friendly neighborhoods akin to the Hutongs in Beijing.

China is playing catch-up game. We are still way behind your guys. We still need to build the free way system. And the electricity cars are on the way.

Solvent

10-16-2009, 04:29 PM

I was in Tokyo for 5 days before I headed to China in late May. It was an eye opener to see how the Japanese park their cars.

Other countries have no luxury on land size like America does.

Ordie

10-16-2009, 04:36 PM

The only way that will happen is if Chinese become the minority in Singapore. The sooner Mandarin becomes the primary lingua franca of Singapore, the better.

It will be up to the people of Singapore who define culture, values, beliefs and language. Not by decree and government policies.

P.Koschei

10-16-2009, 04:41 PM

It will be up to the people of Singapore who define culture, values, beliefs and language. Not by decree and government policies.

Are stupid or something? The government of Singapore has been defining the culture, values, beliefs, and languages of it's people for the last 60 years.

More to the point, what I meant was that the transition to mandarin as Singapore's primary language will keep away undesirable immigration and drive others to leave, keeping Singapore a racially Chinese nation.

Ordie

10-16-2009, 04:47 PM

China is playing catch-up game. We are still way behind your guys. We still need to build the free way system. And the electricity cars are on the way.

Believe me, you don't want to be like the USA.

We are paying a heavy price with freeways and auto dependency. More specifically in foriegn oil dependency which has caused two wars in the middle east and promoted despotism in rich countries full of poor people.

Electric cars are fine, but there is no free lunch. You still need the energy to recharge the batteries. That could only come from fossil fuels.

Moreover, even though China is big, it has limited arable land for food production and water. Building freeways will only displace this valuable land.

Ordie

10-16-2009, 04:49 PM

Are stupid or something? The government of Singapore has been defining the culture, values, beliefs, and languages of it's people for the last 60 years.

More to the point, what I meant was that the transition to mandarin as Singapore's primary language will keep away undesirable immigration and drive others to leave, keeping Singapore a racially Chinese nation.

Not really.

The government only responds to culture and the desires of its citizens.

The Singapore government has been trying to promote Mandarin for quite some time, but only 40% of households use Chinese (Fukienese?) as a primary language, while English-language households have climbed from 26% in 1990 to 60% today.

That is because Mandarin is not a native language to many Singaporean Chinese.

English is more desirable because it means greater access to economic and educational opportunities globally.

plato

10-16-2009, 05:06 PM

Believe me, you don't want to be like the USA.

We are paying a heavy price with freeways and auto dependency. More specifically in foriegn oil dependency which has caused two wars in the middle east and promoted despotism in rich countries full of poor people.

Electric cars are fine, but there is no free lunch. You still need the energy to recharge the batteries. That could only come from fossil fuels.

Moreover, even though China is big, it has limited arable land for food production and water. Building freeways will only displace this valuable land.

China will consume more oil than US one day, and she is ALREADY more dependent on Mideastern oil than US. Many people know that US import a lot of oil from Mideast, but they don't know Mideast is only the 4th largest oil exporter to US. We get most of our oil from Mexico and Canada. Japan is 80% dependent on foreign energy, therefore the very carefully planned cities they have. Can China as a nation afford so many private cars? The contradiction they have in China is that the auto industry keeps a lot of people employed, at this period of weak export they have to keep the auto industry growing in place of the sectors effected by weak export.

Solvent

10-16-2009, 05:08 PM

Ordie

10-16-2009, 05:10 PM

Not entirely like America, because our foundation is thin, necessary construction is needed.

That is why it's important to learn from our mistakes and grow smartly with the least amount of environmental impacts.

P.Koschei

10-16-2009, 05:44 PM

Not really.

The government only responds to culture and the desires of its citizens.

The Singapore government has been trying to promote Mandarin for quite some time, but only 40% of households use Chinese (Fukienese?) as a primary language, while English-language households have climbed from 26% in 1990 to 60% today.

That is because Mandarin is not a native language to many Singaporean Chinese.

English is more desirable because it means greater access to economic and educational opportunities globally.

Where are you getting your figures from? Nevermind, you are probably just making them up as you go along.

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/popn/ghsr1/chap2.pdf

General Household Survey circa 2005 from Singapore. Scroll down to page 17.

Percentage of Chinese households whose primary language is English is 28.7%. Percentage of Chinese households whose primary language is Chinese is 47.2%. The remainder are Chinese dialects like Hokkien.

And I quote

Although usage of English has increased over the years, there appears to be a greater tendency to switch from Chinese dialects to Mandarin than to English at home among the Chinese resident population at all educational levels.

Singaporeans do not need English, they did not need it to become a first world country anymore than Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, or Hong Kong did. All English as a primary language in Singapore serves to do is make Chinese second class citizens in their own city. Mandarin is different than Hokkien, but it is much closer to their native language than English. All English has managed to accomplish is to attract economic migrants from India while driving highly educated Chinese to leave. Why stay if the government is deliberately undermining your wages when you have the language set to move to Canada, Australia, or the US? Once Mandarin becomes the official language of Singapore, then the Indians and to a lesser degree the Malays will go away.

Solvent

10-16-2009, 06:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvVtk2hLleA

Those kids' Chinese are almost in native level.

Ordie

10-16-2009, 06:38 PM

Once Mandarin becomes the official language of Singapore, then the Indians and to a lesser degree the Malays will go away.

So you support ethnic cleansing.

P.Koschei

10-16-2009, 08:20 PM

I support policies that end linguistic economic discrimination against the majority population and that will maintain the cultural and social legacy of Singapore's forefathers. No more, no less.

You are American are you not Ordie? Is it ethnic cleansing to call for a secure border policy, English as the official language, and the deportation of illegal aliens?

TheMiddlePath

10-16-2009, 08:54 PM

In the above light, we might having the best potential to break out of this Chinese-influenced political culture because of the relative melting pot and intermingling of cultures here in the long term, not to mention a slow evolution of a Singaporean culture that may not be entirely "chinese-based".

In fact, we're not even a Chinese state.. and we should always remember that we should never allow ourselves to become one.

Look LazerLordz, we Chinese in the South Seas including you are constantly reminded that we are foreigner Chinese surrounded by 200 million Malay. I have a relative living in Indonesia who speak perfect Malay but had to flee to Singapore durring the last anti-Chinese riot. Yes I am refering to the Indonesia Chinese who try their best to "FIT IN' have a Malay name, speck only Malay. Still we are still Chinese and Singapore to the Malays is nothing more than a Chinese colony.

You mention being perananakan (Baba Nynonya) first Chinese 2nd, but perananakan is still 100% Chinese. Just that they came to the South Seas during the Ming Dynasty and the rest came durring the early 1900s. Still they speak like a Chinese look like a Chinese eat like a chinese, dress like Chinese, mingle with Chinese and marry Chinese. I have several peranakan classmates that came from Melaka dating back SEVEN generations. But are they "BUMIPUTRA" ? No they are still Chinese.

Ordie

10-16-2009, 09:11 PM

I support policies that end linguistic economic discrimination against the majority population and that will maintain the cultural and social legacy of Singapore's forefathers. No more, no less.

It is the responsibilty of any democratic society to protect the minority from the majority in terms of ethnicity, religion, race, language and political views.

I also believe that everyone should be given equal due process under a common laws regardless of nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, language, and political views.

Once a civil society becomes intolerant, it becomes less prosperous both in economic and cultural terms.

it is the people that determines the fate of any language. Driven by the day to day contact of people regardless of background and language abilities.

Solvent

10-16-2009, 09:16 PM

Look LazerLordz, we Chinese in the South Seas including you are constantly reminded that we are foreigner Chinese surrounded by 200 million Malay. I have a relative living in Indonesia who speak perfect Malay but had to flee to Singapore durring the last anti-Chinese riot. Yes I am refering to the Indonesia Chinese who try their best to "FIT IN' have a Malay name, speck only Malay. Still we are still Chinese and Singapore to the Malays is nothing more than a Chinese colony.

You mention being perananakan (Baba Nynonya) first Chinese 2nd, but perananakan is still 100% Chinese. Just that they came to the South Seas during the Ming Dynasty and the rest came durring the early 1900s. Still they speak like a Chinese look like a Chinese eat like a chinese, dress like Chinese, mingle with Chinese and marry Chinese. I have several peranakan classmates that came from Melaka dating back SEVEN generations. But are they "BUMIPUTRA" ? No they are still Chinese.

The door of homeland is always open to our fellow Chinese like you. Give a visit if have time. :)

P.Koschei

10-16-2009, 09:40 PM

It is the responsibilty of any democratic society to protect the minority from the majority in terms of ethnicity, religion, race, language and political views.

I also believe that everyone should be given equal due process under a common laws regardless of nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, language, and political views.

Once a civil society becomes intolerant, it becomes less prosperous both in economic and cultural terms.

it is the people that determines the fate of any language. Driven by the day to day contact of people regardless of background and language abilities.

Since when did a state's policies become dictated by non-citizens. A significant proportion of Singapore's populations are "residents" and have no political rights in Singapore. I simply desire Mandarin to be the standard language of everyday interaction in country. Our "guests" simply have no say in the matter. Hmmm places like Japan, South Korea, Denmark, and Switzerland seem like terrible places to live devoid of economic prosperity and cultural interest. They should invite millions of immigrants to their shores by changing their language to make themselves more "multicultural" and "tolerant".

Oh and MiddlePath and Solvent, Lazerlord is not Chinese.

ShanghaiExpress

10-16-2009, 10:21 PM

OCTOBER 9, 2009

China's New Cultural Revolution

The world's largest country has a long way to go, but there's no question it's changing for the better.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703298004574459890698286648.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

By TONY BLAIR

Yesterday, just a week after the 60th anniversary celebrations of the People's Republic, China kicked off its first World Media Summit. It shows how far China has come—and how far it has to go.

First, understand the problem. We all know China is a nation of 1.3 billion people, but that is just a statistic. Think of how we regard the United States—how different California is from Ohio, for example. Then quadruple it. Think of trying to meld China's 56 native ethnic groupings into one cohesive state. Think of the disaster, not just to the Chinese, but to ourselves, if it fractured.

Understand also how dramatic and daunting the challenge of China's development is. The U.S. has 4% of its population employed in agriculture. Almost 60% of Chinese make their livelihood farming, and more than 150 million live on $1 a day. They need to shift from farming to industry, and they need to do so desperately. The East Coast of China, especially around Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou, may look, in parts, like the First World. But rural China, inland and to the West, is in the beginning stages of development. It will have to change at a pace the world has never seen before.

Are China's leaders concerned about ensuring that this happens with minimum chaos and maximum stability? Of course, and so they should be. Disorder is their enemy and ours.

Today, we analyze feverishly whether China will be able to help rebalance the world economy; whether it will play its full part in the Copenhagen negotiations on climate change; and what its position may be on Iran. Imagine we were analyzing the consequences of a threat to China's stability and cohesion. And then be glad we are not.

None of this means that we should stop posing tough questions to China's leaders. It simply means that we should appreciate how their country looks to them from the inside. We may criticize the speed of political reform, and raise concerns about human rights and the rule of law. But we should at least understand that their political and economic endeavor is unique in human history. Its magnitude is beyond the comprehension of most Western leaders, and its complexity should be recognized.

Prior to 1949, China was a deeply riven and unequal society. There was a reason for the civil war and the multiple invasions of foreign powers. There was a reason for the upheaval of 1949. In the first 30 years came the completion of the revolution and the establishment of the People's Republic. But then came the Cultural Revolution.

It is difficult for us to grasp the pain of that period, when China closed down and engaged in a bizarre and cruel experiment that left scars, even to this day, on those who experienced it—including many in the present leadership. Talk to those who lived during that time, when reason was turned on its head, when survival depended on the whim of officialdom, and when all independent thought was snuffed out, and you will understand how momentous the change has been since then.

The opening up of China has its ups and downs. But over the past 25 years, the number of people below the World Bank poverty line has fallen by over 80%, GDP per head has more than doubled, and Chinese entrepreneurs are among the most innovative in the world.

China is now the world's largest market for automobile sales, but it is also investing heavily in green vehicles. It is the world's second largest market for wind turbines and the third largest in solar power. Over the next decade, it will almost double its energy output from renewable sources, its cities will change much of their lighting to LEDs, and it will aim to peak its emissions in 2030.

China's universities are forging partnerships with the best of their counterparts in the West. And China is turning out more science and engineering graduates than the whole of Europe put together.

There is a new cadre of people coming to the fore within government. Conversations with Chinese leaders today—at the provincial, as well as the central government level—are a world away from the stilted, pro forma exchanges I remember on my first visit 20 years ago.

However, one of the most interesting aspects of modern China is how the narrative of China, its history and its future, is being reframed. Listen to people in China today—and not only in government—and you can see that even amid the celebrations of the 60 years of the People's Republic, China is rediscovering its history and reorienting its future as a result.

Naturally, the 60 years of the Republic and what it has done are extolled. But increasingly, there is an interest in and reverence for China's ancient civilization as well as its post-1949 transformation.

Confucius, the marvels of the Tang dynasty, calligraphy, the beauty of traditional Chinese painting and literature—all of this infuses the speeches, commentary and discourse of contemporary Chinese life. Chinese films, art, fashion and pop music are thriving. There is a new Cultural Revolution taking place in 21st century China, and it is a lot healthier than the old.

This provides those of us outside China with an opportunity. How China changes will impact profoundly how we change. Our obligation is to treat China as a partner as we determine together the way the world will work in the future. If we treat China as our equal, China can be our economic, political and cultural ally. That is an opportunity that is worth effort.

A few weeks ago, when I was in Guizhou province outside Guiyang city, standing in a small village to see a pilot project in solar lighting, I reflected on what I had seen. I had seen the city center, with its fashion shops like Christian Dior and its bustling nightlife, but also housing tenements urgently in need of renovation. I had witnessed a stunning music and dance show celebrating the region's indigenous heritage. I met the Muslim governor. And in the village, I saw newer homes, but also many that were as poor as some in Africa.

As I walked around, the local people at first hung back. But then as I reached out, they reached back. Within minutes, we were taking photos and speaking freely. OK, it wasn't like my old constituency in Sedgefield in the northeast of England. But it wasn't North Korea either. The relationship between government and governed in China is changing, and for the better.

So when we reflect on China's last 60 years, reflect by all means on how far they have to go. But spare a thought for how far they have come. And then figure out how we can help.

Mr. Blair was Prime Minister of Great Britain from 1997-2007.

TheMiddlePath

10-16-2009, 10:52 PM

Since when did a state's policies become dictated by non-citizens. A significant proportion of Singapore's populations are "residents" and have no political rights in Singapore. I simply desire Mandarin to be the standard language of everyday interaction in country. Our "guests" simply have no say in the matter. Hmmm places like Japan, South Korea, Denmark, and Switzerland seem like terrible places to live devoid of economic prosperity and cultural interest. They should invite millions of immigrants to their shores by changing their language to make themselves more "multicultural" and "tolerant".

Oh and MiddlePath and Solvent, Lazerlord is not Chinese.

The Chinese build Singapore from a mosquito infested swamp into what it is today so I guess they have the right to dictate what type of high quality immigrants they want.

Singapore is about survival. Singpore has nothing. Absolute nothng. No oil no forest, no water, no nothing. Only its people. It is run by the best brains money can buy. You only has to look at the resume of its cabinet ministers. Its leaders has the foresight to stay ahead of the pack time and time again. Today Singapore per cap income is greater then its former colonial master.

And Lazerlordz did say that he was Peranankan first then Chinese second, so he is Chinese.

Ordie

10-16-2009, 11:02 PM

Since when did a state's policies become dictated by non-citizens. A significant proportion of Singapore's populations are "residents" and have no political rights in Singapore. I simply desire Mandarin to be the standard language of everyday interaction in country. Our "guests" simply have no say in the matter. Hmmm places like Japan, South Korea, Denmark, and Switzerland seem like terrible places to live devoid of economic prosperity and cultural interest. They should invite millions of immigrants to their shores by changing their language to make themselves more "multicultural" and "tolerant".

Oh and MiddlePath and Solvent, Lazerlord is not Chinese.

Non citizens may not have voting privilages, but they do have a stake in the local community in terms of good, services, investments and tax revenues.

As far as immigration, humans migrate to greener pastures for survival sake since time eternal. It's no different than your forefathers who probably migrated from Fujian to work as coolies in piss poor conditions.

Your sinocentric predjudiced attitudes are no different than the Nazis.

P.Koschei

10-16-2009, 11:10 PM

Thank you for invoking Godwin's law. Conversation over.

Ordie

10-17-2009, 01:24 AM

Thank you for invoking Godwin's law. Conversation over.

Zai jian peng you!!!

Adios

GlassHarp

10-17-2009, 01:37 AM

that will maintain the cultural and social legacy of Singapore's forefathers. No more, no less.

You mean the British?

TheMiddlePath

10-17-2009, 02:33 AM

As far as immigration, humans migrate to greener pastures for survival sake since time eternal. It's no different than your forefathers who probably migrated from Fujian to work as coolies in piss poor conditions.

Not all were coolies. Many came as miners. as businessman. Kuala Lumpur the capital of Malaysia was founded by Yap Ah Loy.

http://i34.tinypic.com/1678sgn.jpg

http://melaka101.googlepages.com/yapahloy.htm

Solvent

10-17-2009, 02:43 AM

Not all were coolies. Many came as miners. as businessman. Kuala Lumpur the capital of Malaysia was founded by Yap Ah Loy.
http://melaka101.googlepages.com/yapahloy.htm

Still remember a TV serial I watched when I was young. The very sad story about the life of Chinese immigrants to south east Asia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fjDhyRG7iU

TheMiddlePath

10-17-2009, 03:06 AM

Still remember a TV serial I watched when I was young. The very sad story about the life of Chinese immigrants to south east Asia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fjDhyRG7iU

Now that I remember watching while I was living in Singapore. Suppose to remind Singaporeans of their roots. Still remember the big fuss over why the ship arriving in Singapore could carry passengers from both China and England.

ovejanu

10-17-2009, 03:20 AM

My opinion is that the China fructify the 20 year of US and UK education.
I want to emphasize the fact that China has export the own people to the West, at the european and american universities.
They learn, excel, return and apply to the country what they have learn.
So as a country to exlode in developement must have a large amount of people educated at high levels, and China it is the one, followed by India.
The chinese people have learn the fact that if you want to develope a powerfull country must have main economic direction oriented to the production and the export. And to be a succed you must do that with foreign money and keep a socialist system; where in every moment you can change the internal politics and keep "pressure" on the investors once they have invest the capital in your country.
The China, i think will be a good example for other country in foreign relations and in economics policy.
China seeing 2 facts: one is the fact that in any actual war the number of troops doesn't matter if you don't have the technology, and the second is the fact that in economy is inverse.

Best regards,
Ionut

hulaku

10-17-2009, 03:24 AM

, and China it is the one, followed by India.
Ionut

No like.p-)

12345

Ordie

10-17-2009, 09:16 AM

They learn, excel, return and apply to the country what they have learn.

Life is hard.

Life in China is harder.

Many of my neighbors are originally from the PRC.

They have no intention in returning.

hskywalker

10-17-2009, 10:35 AM

Life is hard.

Life in China is harder.

Many of my neighbors are originally from the PRC.

They have no intention in returning.
Better not. Too many crooks and spies among those returned.

GlassHarp

10-17-2009, 11:11 PM

Better not. Too many crooks and spies among those returned.

Like there are not plenty of crooks in China already. :roll: :roll:

Get real.

CS1.6

10-17-2009, 11:57 PM

Life is hard.

Life in China is harder.

Many of my neighbors are originally from the PRC.

They have no intention in returning.

make sense,

that's why US is a developed country and China is a developing country;

Solvent

10-18-2009, 12:49 AM

make sense,

that's why US is a developed country and China is a developing country;

Life hard in China is because the competition is very tough. Any Chinese has to fight really hard since they born. That's why China is promising with so many talented and diligent people.

Ordie

10-18-2009, 02:02 AM

Life hard in China is because the competition is very tough. Any Chinese has to fight really hard since they born. That's why China is promising with so many talented and diligent people.

That is also why China is very fragile full of unmet expectations and no second chances.

Solvent

10-18-2009, 02:39 AM

That is also why China is very fragile full of unmet expectations and no second chances.

Who doesn't? Did all your expectations achieve? Are you fragile?

Ordie

10-18-2009, 03:34 AM

Did all your expectations achieve?

Yes

Are you fragile?

No

and I had the freedom to fail.

Solvent

10-18-2009, 03:44 AM

Yes

No

and I had the freedom to fail.

Good for you, but I think you are lying though.

Same with the people in China.

ovejanu

10-18-2009, 03:51 AM

Solvent

10-18-2009, 04:22 AM

What i say it is only my opinnion about the economical success.
I don't talk about freedom, or poverity or human rights.
The economically developement it is a result of a strong education and at the final step is the money.
You can not have economically boom without education. It is impossible with all world money.

Best regards,
Ionut

P.S.: I look into my country, we have unprepared personnel in government and we have money from IMF and EU and we are still in crisis.

The education certainly is very important. Myself is a strong believer of education. Besides our tradition of respecting education, the gov did a lot to improve it. Other important factor is open up to the world, which let people know what the objectives are.

Romania should not have problem on education. In my impression, you guys always have good education level. Getting money is important, but positioning yourself and leadership are a lot more difficult in my opinion.

Daft Ego

10-18-2009, 04:32 AM

How many ways can you say "China sucks"? Just go ask Ordie.

:roll:

ovejanu

10-18-2009, 04:33 AM

The education certainly is very important. Myself is a strong believer of education. Besides our tradition of respecting education, the gov did a lot to improve it. Other important factor is open up to the world, which let people know what the objectives are.

Romania should not have problem on education. In my impression, you guys always have good education level. Getting money is important, but positioning yourself and leadership are a lot more difficult in my opinion.

I not say that we (Romania) have a problem in education .... and yes we have a high level of education, but in adminstration, we have unprepared personnel or to be diplomatically, it is not skilled for that job, maybe is beeter for other work.
In the problem of leadership: if you not born with leadership you can not obtain from life (schools, job, certificates, ...)

I think the China has personnel born with leadership, and this is what they get: the boom. And undoubted the life style will grow alongside with human rights and democracy. I think the China is in a deep change of mentality.

Solvent

10-18-2009, 04:48 AM

I not say that we (Romania) have a problem in education .... and yes we have a high level of education, but in adminstration, we have unprepared personnel or to be diplomatically, it is not skilled for that job, maybe is beeter for other work.
In the problem of leadership: if you not born with leadership you can not obtain from life (schools, job, certificates, ...)

I think the China has personnel born with leadership, and this is what they get: the boom. And undoubted the life style will grow alongside with human rights and democracy. I think the China is in a deep change of mentality.

Bingo, so my impression regarding Romania is still right. Wealth will change a lot things. And I actually see them changing in front of my eyes. We had up and down. I am not going to say the personnel born with leadership, because our corruption is pretty bad at the same time. Maybe some of them do want to build a better place.

Ordie

10-18-2009, 04:51 AM

The economically developement it is a result of a strong education and at the final step is the money.

You should read this:

China's boxed itself in

Its emphasis on math and science has certainly fueled its rapid economic growth, but its lack of creative thinking could rob it of an innovative edge.

By R and y Pollock|May 05, 2009
Which country -- the United States or China -- will make the 21st century its own?
When President Obama recently called for American young people "to be makers of things" and focus on subjects such as science and engineering, it was partly a nod to China's rapid growth. Had he lived, taught and consulted in China for the last 33 months, as I have, he might have urged American students first to follow his example and study the liberal arts. Only technical knowledge complemented by well-honed critical and creative thinking skills can help us regain our innovative edge. China's traditional lack of emphasis on teaching these skills could undermine its efforts to develop its own innovative economy.

I once challenged my Chinese MBA students to brainstorm "two-hour business plans." I divided them into six groups, gave them detailed instructions and an example: a restaurant chain. The more original their idea, the better, I stressed -- and we'd vote for a prize winner. The word "prize" energized the room. Laptops flew open. Fingers pounded. Voices roared. Packs of cookies were ripped open and shared. Not a single person text-messaged. I'd touched a nerve.

In the end, five of the six groups presented plans for, you guessed it, restaurant chains. The sixth proposed a catering service. Why risk a unique solution when the instructor has let it slip he likes the food business?
Though I admitted the time limit had been difficult, I expressed my disappointment and reiterated what I had expected -- originality -- and why. But they'd been so enthusiastic that I couldn't deny them a winner. After a polite discussion of the merits of each idea, the Haagen-Dazs gift certificates were awarded, but not without controversy. Runners-up later complained that an identical concept had been featured on CCTV the night before.

My students weren't recent college grads. They were middle managers, financial analysts and marketers from state-owned enterprises and multinational companies. They occupied the space in the developing economy that has spawned a small industry of articles about "China's great talent shortage." Most were intelligent, personable men and women, not without talent or opinions, but they had been shaped by an educational system that rarely stressed or rewarded critical thinking or inventiveness
The scenario I've described occurred in different forms throughout my two years at the school. Papers were routinely copied from the Web and the Harvard Business Review. Case study debates meant to be spontaneous were jointly scripted by the opposing teams and memorized. Students frequently posited that copying is a superior business strategy to inventing and innovating. When they considered the wealth that Chinese industry had amassed in such a short time, it was hard for them to believe otherwise.

Throughout the semesters, like students everywhere but more so, they wanted to know exactly what they needed to memorize for the mid-term and final. Considering it takes me a week just to commit several Chinese phrases to memory, I had to respect their skills.
Nonetheless, I reminded them that their exams would require analysis, and often re-explained at their request the difference between analysis and summary.
My Western-trained colleagues, both foreigners and Chinese, tell similar stories. It's not that university students in the West hadn't also needed coaching in critical thinking, but they weren't so blindly locked into such a seemingly entrenched style. It doesn't help, of course, that certain important topics related to politics and business have to be avoided in my Chinese classes.
Ironically, the government that has enforced such restrictions and focused its schools so intensely on math and science seems to realize its efforts may be too effective. Highways, dams, bridges and airports have been built, every conceivable product manufactured and sold, but so few sophisticated marketing and management minds have been cultivated that it will be a long time before most people in the world can name a Chinese brand.

With this problem in mind, local partnerships with institutions such as USC, Johns Hopkins, Yale, MIT and Insead of France have been established. If not quite ready to create cadres of disaffected litterateurs and cineastes, Beijing clearly recognizes it will take different kinds of thinkers to invent new products and sell them around the world.
And then there's the "thousand-talent scheme," a new government program intended to boost technological innovation by luring top foreign-trained scientists, including those of non-Chinese origin, to the mainland with big money and perks.

But the officials and professors who conceived this "scheme" are likely products of the educational system that generated the problem they are trying to solve. They are ambitious. They are confident. They want to push China forward. But worries about China's research environment, hardly known for fostering independent thinking and openness, may overshadow lucrative salary offers.

"Money is important for practical issues," said Zhangqing Li, a University of Maryland professor, to Nature.com in January. "But the determinant factor is whether we would be able to be as productive in China as the United States."

Ultimately for China, becoming a major world innovator -- and by extension, a robust economic power -- is not just about setting up partnerships with top Western universities or roping off elites and telling them to think creatively. It's about establishing an intellectually rich learning environment for young minds. It's about harnessing the same inventive energy of the street markets and small-time entrepreneurs and putting it in the schools.

The Chinese don't need expensive free-agent scientists. They need a new farm system -- and about 10 million liberal arts professors.

Randy Pollock, a former USC lecturer, consults with companies on communication and management issues in China

Source:http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/05/opinion/oe-pollock5

Solvent

10-18-2009, 04:56 AM

You should read this:

Source:http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/05/opinion/oe-pollock5

I disagree that people are lack of creative thinking. It's just the research system needs to reform.

Ordie

10-18-2009, 05:10 AM

I disagree that people are lack of creative thinking. It's just the research system needs to reform.

I agree

But they've been conditioned.

In college I felt sorry for Chinese students who were frustrated that they were graded for class participation. Very few raised their hands and challenged the professor in debates.

Eventine

10-18-2009, 06:58 AM

I disagree that people are lack of creative thinking. It's just the research system needs to reform.

It's more than that. Building a good research system is useless if you don't have talented researchers, and to obtain talented researchers, you must change the culture of education.

This isn't simple.

GlassHarp

10-18-2009, 10:53 AM

My experience is that critical thinking is enormously under emphasized in Chinese education and society. I would imagine that this has a very negative effect on research, as well as many other areas.

I disagree with the whole "Chinese are not creative" thing, I think they are just have a very understandable aversion to risk. Just like Ordie said, Chinese people can not afford to fail. This may stifle creativity, but does not mean there is less ability to be creaive.

Hongjian

10-18-2009, 10:57 AM

Well, the main problem in my very own expierience with the chinese educational-system is the system itself. In germany we call it "Frontalunterricht" - or 'Frontal-Education', originally cultivated by the prussians to reform their educational system. This prussian system is typical for a developing country who aims to reduce illiteracy in a short time, to build a solid foundation for further development. Obviously this system was very effective: It combined compulsory education with an authoritarian tuition-style and a strictly structurized curriculum. In both cases, Prussia and China, it was very successful in reducing illiteracy and providing the broad majority of children the important basics for life.
But the difference between Prussia/Germany and China is, that former moved further. After successfully establishing a fundamental education-system which provides the basics, they reformated their system towards more sophistication. Basically they've evolved on the base of their Prussian foundation to the next level: Education's main goal now, is not only to provide basic skills, but creativity and innovation.

Thats the fundamental problem of lots of asian countries, who are either in the stage of being a developing country or even being a developed country.
China has succesfully implemented the Prussian Basic-Education-System, but didnt evolve further towards innovation and creativity, although they've the best foundation for it. Instead they are doing useless math-olympiads, that even intensifies the deadly educational competition. This competition is, to be fair, one of the main reasons China hasnt evolved further in their educational-system: The societal rivalry is simply so fierce, that no parent, no student and no teacher dares to stray from the 'proven prussian path' to try something different. So in this sense, Ordie is right with his statement, that in the West, one has the freedom (or luxury) to fail, since you always have a second chance.
China is not like this. If you fail once, millions of competitors will gladly take you place and you will die a horrible death in poverty and rightlessness.
I still remember how my mother always draged me on the streets to show me all the dirty hobos who are bleeding like pigs after being beaten without any reason by the police or anyone who feels bored or frustrated. Thats everytime when I dared to complain about my masssive homework and the pressure of school. Showing a six years old these poor bastards, she was saying: I will definitely end like this, if I dont learn like mad and stray away from the path for stupid experiments of creative thinking. And I believed her, and still believe her now.
Gladly I moved to germany some years later and could enjoy the luxury of failing and experimenting. And thats why I'm back to China, to try to help at least the university students, by teaching them creative and critical thinking. But still enduring the pressure of competition, that freezes any attempt to reform the educational-system, I think my work wont fruit well: Simply nobody will take the risks upon themselves and their only children.
One-child-policy: If we abolish it, there will be more competition because there are more people; If we keep it, noone will be ready to take risks. It's like the choice between two evils.

But anyway. This is not only a Chinese problem. Taiwan, South-Korea and Japan expierience the same problem (most notably Japan, since they also adopted the prussian-system during Meiji-Restauration and also didnt evolved much further from it).

Competition is the blessing and on the same time the scourge of innovation.

Solvent

10-18-2009, 12:06 PM

Thats the fundamental problem of lots of asian countries, who are either in the stage of being a developing country or even being a developed country.
China has succesfully implemented the Prussian Basic-Education-System, but didnt evolve further towards innovation and creativity, although they've the best foundation for it. Instead they are doing useless math-olympiads, that even intensifies the deadly educational competition. This competition is, to be fair, one of the main reasons China hasnt evolved further in their educational-system: The societal rivalry is simply so fierce, that no parent, no student and no teacher dares to stray from the 'proven prussian path' to try something different. So in this sense, Ordie is right with his statement, that in the West, one has the freedom (or luxury) to fail, since you always have a second chance.

I think the difference is in western countries, you don't have to be top students to get decent college education. Before college enrollment reform, getting in college was such hard task. The enrollment rate probably was only 40% or less. For high schools with poor performance, there were only one or two students who could pass the entrance exam. That was truly you-can't-fail test, even you still could take the exam next year, but once fall behind, it is huge blow on confidence. That's why I don't entirely agree that you don't have second chance, it's just any chance is hard enough to hold on.

Solvent

10-18-2009, 12:12 PM

It's more than that. Building a good research system is useless if you don't have talented researchers, and to obtain talented researchers, you must change the culture of education.

This isn't simple.

I suppose good research system is that kind that can produce innovation and attract talents.

However, you are right the culture of education needs to be changed.

Solvent

10-18-2009, 12:19 PM

DS73

10-18-2009, 12:28 PM

But anyway. This is not only a Chinese problem. Taiwan, South-Korea and Japan expierience the same problem (most notably Japan, since they also adopted the prussian-system during Meiji-Restauration and also didnt evolved much further from it).
What do you know about japanes educational system? Please enlighten us.
Somehow I have missed this "fact" of "uncreativity" of jap's engineers. What is uncreative: japs' cars, or the HQ measurement equipment they export since 60s?

Emphasize on creativity in modern educational system in Germany is novelty to me as well. Can you provide some illustrating details? Much bigger and financially much more capable country somehow fails to shade France and even Italy off technological or art market. It is hard not to blame education here.

It is common nowadays to mix up "individualistic approach" hardwired with critical thinking and creativity. They are different animals.

Creativity is the ability to design right things-decisions in given borders.
It is not necessarily the ability to "think beyond the box". More of it, any experienced engineer or manager would immediately point that the emphasize on such thinking beyond the box is extremely damaging in real life.

Critical thinking is the ability to question given borders and existing solutions (beside many many other things).

Proper education provides both, but there is no country that succeeded to implement such proper education on mass scale. The main problem is in preparation of enough teachers capable to do anything beyond hardwired educational scripts.
China, which had nothing just 30 years ago and is a traditional society based on dogmatic ideologies on all levels, has no chances in creating such system.

Competition per se has nothing to do with innovation.

The chinese society is traditionally very competitive. The people there end very quickly with lockers on their drawers (at least these are real chinese demands in Europe as well :cantbeli:), they lack any useful cooperation, and it is common to hide any useful knowledge with the scope to use it in their own advantage. No long-term continuous innovation is possible in such atmosphere.

Innovation is driven by other social mechanisms mainly social flexibility, that is the ability of society to accept new ideas and morph into new forms.
In many cases cooperation and exchange of ideas (with intrinsic acknowledgment of others' achievements) is essential for innovation to happen.
This, rather free exchange of ideas, is what is characteristic for european society since Renaissance times, and was essential for continuous technological successes.

Hongjian

10-18-2009, 12:48 PM

What do you know about japanes educational system? Please enlighten us.
Somehow I have missed this "fact" of "uncreativity" of jap's engineers. What is uncreative: japs' cars, or the HQ measurement equipment they export since 60s?

Emphasize on creativity in modern educational system in Germany is novelty to me as well. Can you provide some illustrating details? Much bigger and financially much more capable country somehow fails to shade France and even Italy off technological or art market. It is hard not to blame education here.

It is common nowadays to mix up "individualistic approach" hardwired with critical thinking and creativity. They are different animals.

Creativity is the ability to design right things-decisions in given borders.
It is not necessarily the ability to "think beyond the box". More of it, any experienced engineer or manager would immediately point that the emphasize on such thinking beyond the box is extremely damaging in real life.

Critical thinking is the ability to question given borders and existing solutions (beside many many other things).

Proper education provides both, but there is no country that succeeded to implement such proper education on mass scale. The main problem is in preparation of enough teachers capable to do anything beyond hardwired educational scripts.
China, which had nothing just 30 years ago and is a traditional society based on dogmatic ideologies on all levels, has no chances in creating such system.

Competition per se has nothing to do with innovation.

The chinese society is traditionally very competitive. The people there end very quickly with lockers on their drawers (at least these are real chinese demands in Europe as well :cantbeli:), they lack any useful cooperation, and it is common to hide any useful knowledge with the scope to use it in their own advantage. No long-term continuous innovation is possible in such atmosphere.

Innovation is driven by other social mechanisms mainly social flexibility, that is the ability of society to accept new ideas and morph into new forms.
In many cases cooperation and exchange of ideas (with intrinsic acknowledgment of others' achievements) is essential for innovation to happen.
This, rather free exchange of ideas, is what is characteristic for european society since Renaissance times, and was essential for continuous technological successes.

Competition IS the main reason for the lack of creativity. As I said, nobody wants to take risks upon themselves and stray away from the proven path of rote learning facts, bacause you cannot afford to fail. Talk to Chinese Students and you will see that this is the main reason for their lack of creativity. They will always say:" Zhongguo ren tai duo la..." - "There are too many Chinese".

As for Japan, their cars are maybe awesome and the technology very advanced, but this doesent prove their innovation or creativity. In the actual sciencetific ranking, Japanese basic-research capability is pretty bad. Dont get me wrong, Japan is very good in taking others Basic Inventions to miniaturize and streamlines it's design to market it, and they are awesome in the field of continuative-research, but their basic-research skills are severely lacking.
And basic-research, which is the most important and influencial field-of-research above all, is heavily influenced by a educational system that encourages creative and innovative thinking.
In this sense, I can also take China's boom of electric bikes and the realization of an commercial Maglev-Line for example. China streamlined their production and application, but these arent their own inventions. China is basically going down the Japanese way.

And talking about German school system, well it's in the mids of a reform, but taking all the inventions of Germany in account, one cannot say that their system is uninnovative.
And can you provide prove that France and Italy are better at Basic Research than Germany? Never heard of it.

Solvent

10-18-2009, 01:14 PM

Competition

One video I think you may be interested.

A speech about the opportunity and challenge of China's economy in 21 century. Partially explained the reason for lack of innovation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP-_qSkIftI&feature=related

Speaker: Lin yifu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Yifu_Lin

*Sorry, it's a non-English speech. I can't translate it since it's too long.

TheMiddlePath

10-18-2009, 01:33 PM

Yes

No

and I had the freedom to fail.

Ancient Chinese proverbs.

http://i36.tinypic.com/27zhopx.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/2dhwrnk.jpg

Ordie

10-19-2009, 04:02 AM

The battle of competing Chinese scripts has reached our shores.

My opinion, have the kids learn the traditional first which makes it easier to learn the simplified later on.

latimes.com

Schools a battleground over dueling Chinese scripts

Decisions over teaching the simplified characters used in mainland China versus the traditional ones used in Taiwan stir passions among parents over politics and cultural pride.

By Raja Abdulrahim
October 18, 2009

For nine years, Sutoyo Lim's son studied Chinese with private tutors and at language schools. He learned to write in "simplified script," characters with thinly spread strokes commonly used in mainland China.

But that all changed when Lim's 15-year-old son began taking Chinese classes at Arcadia High School this year. He was given two months to make the transition from "simplified" to the more intricate "traditional" script used in Taiwan.

Once the grace period is over, homework and exam answers written in simplified script will be disqualified -- regardless of accuracy. "To me, it does not seem right," Lim said. "I'm not happy with being forced to choose the language that's going to be obsolete."

When Chinese classes were introduced at Arcadia in the mid-1990s, Taiwanese parents pushed administrators to adopt the use of traditional script used in Taiwan and pre-communist China. The traditional form is distinguished by a series of complex and intersecting strokes.

But with the large influx of Chinese immigrants into the San Gabriel Valley over the last decade, there is increasing demand to adopt the simplified form, which Taiwanese parents and others see as a threat to an ancient tradition. The change is occurring at private and public schools in California and across the country.

The language dispute is part of a larger and politically charged debate that stems in part from changing immigration patterns in the United States and China's increasing influence as a world economic power. Schools such as Arcadia High have become a battleground over this issue.

In a 2007 national survey by the Chinese Language Assn. of Secondary-Elementary Schools, nearly half of 263 schools included in the sample taught only the simplified form and 11% only traditional. The remaining taught a mix of the two. In 1994, by comparison, 17% of 139 schools taught simplified and 40% traditional.

"China is opening up a huge market worldwide," said Yu-Lan Lin, executive director of the association. "It's better to know the customer's language."

For the last four years, Arcadia High Principal David Vannasdall has been lobbied by both sides of the debate.

Last April, the school held a meeting with parents to discuss the issue. Parents were urged to "focus on interests, not positions."

Because of what he deemed a "hostile" attitude toward his support of simplified script, Lim didn't want his son's name used for this story.

"The reaction to eliminating traditional has been overwhelming," Vannasdall said. "It's a really controversial issue."

Two years ago, when Christine Lee was president of the Arcadia Chinese parents club, some parents pushing for the simplified form tried to draw the group into the debate. But Lee said the club resisted taking sides.

Still, Lee, who came to the U.S. from Taiwan in the 1980s, said she resented Lim's characterization of traditional script as obsolete. "Chinese characters are so beautiful, why would you give that up?" she said. "How could 5,000 years of history go away that easily?"

Simplified characters were introduced in the 1950s by the Chinese communist regime to improve literacy rates among the country's mostly rural population.

At the time, anti-communist politicians and refugees fled and settled in Taiwan, where they continued the use of traditional script.

Before diplomatic relations were established between the United States and China in the 1970s, the traditional form was commonly taught here. To switch to the simplified form says something about Taiwan's place in the world and who speaks on behalf of Chinese culture, said David Lee, past president of the Arcadia Chinese Assn.

"In the heart of Taiwan, it's a crisis because the Taiwanese feel they are so small, there's nothing they can compete with China, not militarily, not with population," Lee said. "But if there's something they can . . . insist upon, it's culture and the language. And script is part of the culture."

Others worry that changing school curriculum is only the beginning and that the rest of the community would soon follow with store signs, restaurant menus and newspapers. In August, the Sing Tao Daily newspaper in the Bay Area changed its free weekly publication to simplified script.

"There are more and more Chinese from mainland," said Tim Lau, chief executive of the paper's San Francisco operation. "We want to tap a different market, the new immigrant market."

In June, Taiwanese President Ma Ying-jeou caused a stir during a meeting with visiting Taiwanese community leaders from the U.S. when he said students should learn to read in traditional script and write in the simplified form. After he was publicly criticized, he clarified that his statement was directed at mainland China.

"It became a very ideological thing," David Lee said. "As the Chinese say, 'Save face.' Sometimes save face is more important than anything else."

When creating its Chinese language curriculum three years ago, Palo Alto High School in the Bay Area considered the practical use of the language before deciding on the simplified form, said Norman Masuda, instructional supervisor for languages. Parents who continue to promote the traditional form are not acting in the best interest of their children, he said.

"For the future, they need to learn something that they can use right away, and most students want to go to China, not Taiwan," Masuda said. "You have to keep up with the wave."

Soon after she was hired as principal of Meyerholz Elementary School in San Jose last spring, Anita Alfonso said, parents were complaining about the teaching of the simplified form. The school has an 8-year-old Chinese immersion program taught mostly in the traditional form, but it introduces simplified script in the fourth grade.

Of the 350 students in the program, Alfonso said, about half have parents from Taiwan. "I've already had a lot of parents come talk to me that they don't like the simplified," she said.

At Westside Chinese School in Mar Vista, the administration was forced into a compromise about five years ago after some Chinese parents took their children out of the school to protest the traditional-only curriculum.

Since its founding in 1967 by Taiwanese immigrants, the parent-run Saturday school had taught only the traditional form until enrollment dipped, and the school began teaching in both Chinese scripts, said Joan Kung, the school's past dean of academic studies.

"We ask the teachers if they can teach both to meet the demands of both parents," Kung said. "We want to attract these parents from China."

In classrooms and textbooks at the school, traditional script is presented side by side with simplified, and students are allowed to choose which they prefer. In his classroom at Westside, 10-year-old Jacob Graves writes in simplified form using big, broad pencil strokes. He said he could read traditional script, but he still became flustered when he looked at the school's newsletter.

"I can't read this word and this word and this word," he said. "Actually, I can't read a lot of these words."

Jacob's mother, Joanna Graves, who grew up in Shanghai, said the traditional form takes up too much study time. "I like simplified because it's a little easier for the children to write," she said.

Most state and national Chinese groups have avoided promoting one script over the other, said Gay Yuen, a Cal State L.A. language professor.

For academic organizations, debating traditional versus simplified is a no-win situation. It not only distracts from other issues but can also alienate some members.

In June, Yuen met with other academic leaders from across California in a two-day conference held in Burbank to establish state Chinese language standards. They avoided any talk of scripts.

"If that question had come up at the meeting, we wouldn't have been able to get through our agenda," Yuen said. "It's like politics. Don't talk about it."Source:http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-chinese18-2009oct18,0,192192,print.story

Ordie

10-19-2009, 08:49 PM

People will always take the lead in culture, not institutions and/or governments.

October 19, 2009
Uneasy Engagement
At Book Fair, a Subplot About Chinese Rights

By STEVEN ERLANGER (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/e/steven_erlanger/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and JONATHAN ANSFIELD
FRANKFURT — As China (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) extends its economic reach, it has also increased efforts to promote its culture, or “soft power,” to counter Western influence and improve its image in the wider world.
Yet if Chinese goods are accepted everywhere, its arts and literature, embattled at home after decades of censorship and state control, are proving harder for the government to export.
After years of delicate preparations, China was the “honored guest” this past week at the Frankfurt Book Fair (http://www.fbf2009china.com/frankfurteren/Index.html), the largest and most influential book trade event, based on the number of publishers represented. But what Beijing hoped would be a celebration of its cultural achievements turned into a tug of war between control and free speech, as much a showcase for Chinese dissidents as the state’s approved writers.
Mao Zedong (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/mao_zedong/index.html?inline=nyt-per) said that power flowed from the “wielders of the pen,” not only from the gun. But the chairman would not be amused to find books like “Mao: The Unknown Story,” an indictment of his rule that is banned in China, displayed alongside the official Chinese exhibit at this year’s fair, which ended Sunday.
When the German organizers and diplomats urged the Chinese to allow a prominent storyteller and musician, Liao Yiwu, to come to Frankfurt, the authorities refused to lift his overseas travel ban, and told him to stop talking about it.
A symposium preceding the book fair titled “China and the World — Perceptions and Realities,” became a major confrontation. Fair organizers withdrew invitations to two dissident writers the Chinese wanted to exclude, Dai Qing and Bei Ling, but welcomed them at the last minute after criticism by journalists and politicians. When the writers made statements, the Chinese delegation walked out, only to return after an abject apology (http://www.buchmesse.de/en/fbf/01520/) by the fair’s director, Jürgen Boos.
“We did not come to be instructed about democracy,” declared Mei Zhaorong, China’s former ambassador to Germany.
Unlike the exquisitely choreographed ceremonies during the Beijing Olympics, the fair presented a messier and more ambiguous portrait of China on the rise — a country still deeply uncomfortable with its own discordant voices, yet eager to become more competitive with the West in the realm of ideas.
China controlled its own massive display of books, artwork and authors at the fair, including even books from Taiwan, to underline its assertion of “One China.” But it could not censor the 2,500 books about China displayed by others. And while Beijing had many consultations with the German government and arguments with the fair organizers, it ultimately did not push to prevent dissidents and critics — even representatives of the Dalai Lama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/_dalai_lama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) — from attending the event.
The book fair is not the Beijing Olympics and “cannot be controlled,” said Mr. Boos. He apologized for mishandling the symposium, but said: “It is the beginning of a cultural dialogue. And dialogue is not easy.”
Still, Chinese officials did not attend dissident events, “which were full of people who already agreed with the dissidents,” said the German novelist Tanja Kinkel. “They were preaching to the choir,” she said.
The Chinese themselves were annoyed. With SpiegelOnline (http://www.spiegel.de/international/) headlining its coverage “China, the Unwelcome Guest,” several official Chinese delegates told colleagues that Europe’s politicians and news media were strongly biased.
Li Pengyi, a delegation member and vice president of China Publishing Group Corporation, said happily that China had sold nearly 900 copyrights here. But he complained about the coverage.
“We don’t feel we’ve been hospitably treated,” he said. “China sent more than 2,000 people to Frankfurt. And now this barrage of criticism.”
Zhao Haiyun, spokesman for China’s General Administration of Press and Publication, said that instead of focusing on literature, the media had focused on human rights and censorship. “The German media are very biased,” he said.
Even so, the Chinese did not pull out. The Beijing leadership sent Xi Jinping (http://news.at0086.com/China-Politics-News/Chinese-vice-president-calls-for-enhancing-cultural-exchanges-at-Frankfurt-Book-Fair.html), China’s vice president and heir apparent to President Hu Jintao (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/hu_jintao/index.html?inline=nyt-per), a measure of the political weight they attached to the event.
Michael Naumann (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/n/michael_naumann/index.html?inline=nyt-per), a former German culture minister and now publisher and editor of Die Zeit (http://www.zeit.de/index), a prominent weekly newspaper, said German organizers misjudged the complications of honoring China in a year laden with controversy, including the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, the 20th anniversary of the crushed Tiananmen Square democracy movement and the 60th anniversary of Chinese Communist Party rule.
“I think the people who run the book fair were kind of naïve when they invited the Chinese,” he said. “But opening this enormous window of the book fair to Chinese writers, whether they are censored or not, will give them a way to sniff out the open forum of intellectual debate.”
Since 2004, China has pursued what it calls its “going out” policy on the cultural front, trying to square its economic influence and new status as a global power, while trying to defuse criticism on issues like Tibet, Taiwan and human rights.
There have been yearlong cultural exchanges with many countries; the opening of hundreds of language teaching centers known as Confucius Institutes; new foreign-language services from official media like Xinhua and CCTV; and new interest in foreign platforms like the Kennedy Center (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/k/kennedy_john_f_center_for_the_performing_arts/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and the Europalia (http://www.europalia.be/?lang=fr) festival in Brussels.
There have been other furors. When China was featured at the 2004 Paris Book Fair, officials initially persuaded the French not to invite the Nobel literature laureate Gao Xingjian (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/gao_xingjian/index.html?inline=nyt-per), a French citizen whose books are banned in China.
But Frankfurt, with its 7,300 publishers and 300,000 visitors, was a much riskier venture.
Jing Bartz has been the fair’s chief representative in Beijing since 2003 and negotiated strenuously with Chinese publication officials. “China has really wanted to use this platform to promote Chinese culture,” she said. “On the other side, they are worried because they can’t use Chinese rules to do it.”
What helped persuade China was the cultural trade gap. At the 2005 Beijing book fair, the Chinese were shocked that German publishers sold 600 copyrighted works to China while the Chinese sold just one to Germany, Mrs. Bartz said.
Chinese officials worried particularly that the Dalai Lama might attend, or that books would be displayed from adversaries like the banned movement Falun Gong (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/falun_gong/index.html?inline=nyt-org).
The breakthrough came in 2006, said Mrs. Bartz, when Shi Zongyuan, then head of the General Administration of Press and Publication, told organizers: “We just have to make it very clear what is our guest of honor program, and what are the other events.”
China invested $15 million and managed nearly every detail of its exhibition. There was much argument over what translations to finance. The 20 new German-published volumes China financed include works by major writers, like Jiang Rong’s “Wolf Totem,” Yu Hua’s “Brothers,” and Xu Zechen’s “Running Through Zhongguancun.”
Mr. Xu’s hit, about a migrant hawking pirated DVDs and fake IDs in the capital, was unexpected. But of some 100 newly translated titles that China promoted, most are banal introductions to China from state publishers.
“The government has not put on such a concentrated, large-scale event before to promote Chinese literature, so I think it’s a good opportunity,” said Mr. Xu, 31. “Because of the government’s involvement, there are inevitably going to be these ideological problems. But we just have to be responsible to ourselves.”
Since the uproar over the symposium last month, said Mr. Boos and Mrs. Bartz, China has appeared more relaxed. Officials eventually gave up protesting the attendance of those like the Uighur independence advocate Rebiya Kadeer (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/rebiya_kadeer/index.html?inline=nyt-per); the Dalai Lama’s envoy, Kelsang Gyaltsen; Ms. Dai, Mr. Bei or Mr. Gao.
“They tried to learn,” Mrs. Bartz said. But she confirmed that while the Chinese were “very satisfied with the business results” of the fair, “they don’t really feel they were welcomed as guests here.” The word went down from the top, she said, not to react to demonstrations or provocations from protesters or journalists.
Back in China, however, the fair has not brought any noticeable easing of restrictions.
Mr. Liao, the writer and musician, was imprisoned from 1990 to 1994 after he wrote a poem about the Tiananmen massacre. Despite an invitation here — he hoped to promote his book about China’s downtrodden, known in English as “The Corpse Walker” — the police would not lift a ban on his going overseas.
In a telephone interview, Mr. Liao said it was not a complete loss for him or other underground writers, given the publicity. “Only by going through these incidents, it seems, can we become known to the outside world,” he said.

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/world/asia/19books.html?_r=1&sq=china%20books&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=print

Ordie

10-19-2009, 09:08 PM

Silicon Valley espionage case only second of kind in nation to go to trial

By Howard Mintz

hmintz@mercurynews.com (hmintz@mercurynews.com?subject=San Jose Mercury News: Silicon Valley espionage case only second of kind in nation to go to trial)

Posted: 10/18/2009 05:32:56 PM PDT
Updated: 10/19/2009 07:00:16 AM PDT

By the time the FBI came knocking on their doors in July 2003, engineers Lan Lee and Yuefei Ge were already caught in the cross hairs of a government investigation into whether they were stealing technology from their Silicon Valley employers to establish a rival company backed by China.
More than six years later, the story of their suspected theft of superfast computer chip plans is about to emerge from the shadows. In the second trial of its kind in the nation, the engineers are set to face economic espionage charges in federal court in San Jose. Jury selection is scheduled to begin Tuesday.
Lee, 44, and Ge, 36, are among just a handful of defendants to face federal charges under a section of the 13-year-old Economic Espionage Act, designed to prevent the illegal transfer of technology to foreign governments. While a number of defendants have pleaded guilty and been sentenced, only one other has gone to trial — a former Boeing Co. and Rockwell International engineer convicted this summer in Santa Ana federal court for passing critical information on the space program to China.
For Silicon Valley, where companies have worried for years about their prized secrets being leaked to China and other countries, such a trial is a window into the complexities of protecting product information in a place with ties to every corner of the global economy.
The trial also is fraught with pitfalls for prosecutors and the defense, both of whom
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are entering largely uncharted territory of how jurors will assess whether trade secrets were illegally stolen for a foreign government, China.
"It's challenging for prosecutors in these cases to demonstrate a clear intent to benefit the foreign government," said Scott Frewing, a former federal prosecutor who advises companies on protecting trade secrets. "And the challenge for the defense is that in China, every part of the economy is dominated by the government, so the links are more obvious."
Lee and Ge have pleaded not guilty to the charges that include theft of trade secrets and violations of the espionage law. If convicted, they face 10 years or more in prison, although most convicted on economic espionage charges in recent years have received much lower sentences. Ed Swanson, Ge's lawyer, declined to comment. Tom Nolan, Lee's attorney, did not return calls seeking comment.
In court papers, defense lawyers suggested Lee and Ge had no intention of doing anything to illegally benefit China. Lee, a U.S. citizen, and Ge, a Chinese national, allegedly stole the blueprints for a superfast computer chip from their employer, NetLogic Microsystems of Mountain View, and another company, Taiwan Semiconductor, for a Chinese-backed program.
The defense does plan to call witnesses with expertise on the technology involved and China's relationship with technology companies, as well as witnesses who will testify about the engineers' character, including wives, co-workers and friends, according to court papers.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Matthew Parrella, who is prosecuting the case, declined to comment.
In court papers, prosecutors allege Lee and Ge conspired to steal secrets from NetLogic to establish their own startup company with funding from a Chinese venture capital arm called the "863 program" — which the U.S. says is intertwined with the Chinese government. Court papers show the two men were first uncovered by anonymous e-mail tips to the FBI traced to Ge's wife. Prosecutors have already been dealt one blow when U.S. District Judge James Ware refused to allow them to use the testimony of two other former valley executives who pleaded guilty last year to economic espionage charges. They were supposed to testify about China's "863" program.
But prosecutors have other witnesses and material seized from the engineers' home computers, including references to the allegedly stolen data and negotiations with China, court documents show. There are no direct allegations of China's role, except that the technology could be used for the Chinese military and tech businesses.
China has repeatedly denied any involvement with defendants charged in U.S. courts with stealing trade secrets.
Meanwhile, experts say that while the San Jose trial will be an intriguing glimpse into the loss of valley secrets overseas, it also is a reminder that the economic espionage laws are seldom used and most companies wind up protecting themselves. Experts estimate U.S. companies lose more than $40 billion a year from stolen trade secrets.
"So, it's two or three (trials) in 13 years," said Steven Fink, president of Los Angeles-based Lexicon Communications, which advises companies on espionage. "Wake me when some real action is going on. The real story is what took so long and why there aren't more of these."

Source:http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13590675?source=email

Hongjian

10-20-2009, 11:48 AM

People will always take the lead in culture, not institutions and/or governments.

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/world/asia/19books.html?_r=1&sq=china%20books&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=print

Yeah. Typical German idealistic retardness. Thats why Germany is called 'De Guo' in Chinese, which literally means 'Country of Moral/Virtue'.
Post-war germans are all overly naiive moral-fags, with no sense of reality. It's now a country made of hippies, tree-huggers, whale-savers, lib-tards and communists, claiming that 3 dissent authors, who arent even living in China, are representing 1.3 billion Chinese' opinions.

To invite the traditional machiavellian and strictly materialist dictatorship China to a symposium hosted by retarded idealists and dreamers, is a decision so full of aids and fail, simply everyone should know in beforehand that this wont end well.
In the end this symposium just became a gigantic act of running the gauntlet for China, who had to endure the rage, whinning and insults of every single attending hippie. It's pretty much like to invite an ultra-conservative to a socialist meeting, and to expect him to state his political viewpoints.

Well, as the Chinese ambassador said in an German interview; China has learned to endure and to smile throughout the whole 5000 years of culture. Like in that historical anecdote, where the ambassador of the poor state of Qi went to the wealthier state of Chu, where he was treated badly and being severely humilated by the host. But in the end, the Qi Ambassador still stood proudly and earned the respect from the state of Chu.
Too bad that dreaming, overzealous gullible idealist like most Germans dont know anything about respect and diplomatic tactfulness, but are only interested into converting infidels to their Great Religion of Democracy.

Ordie

10-20-2009, 02:55 PM

Yeah. Typical German idealistic retardness. Thats why Germany is called 'De Guo' in Chinese, which literally means 'Country of Moral/Virtue'.
Post-war germans are all overly naiive moral-fags, with no sense of reality. It's now a country made of hippies, tree-huggers, whale-savers, lib-tards and communists, claiming that 3 dissent authors, who arent even living in China, are representing 1.3 billion Chinese' opinions.

To invite the traditional machiavellian and strictly materialist dictatorship China to a symposium hosted by retarded idealists and dreamers, is a decision so full of aids and fail, simply everyone should know in beforehand that this wont end well.
In the end this symposium just became a gigantic act of running the gauntlet for China, who had to endure the rage, whinning and insults of every single attending hippie. It's pretty much like to invite an ultra-conservative to a socialist meeting, and to expect him to state his political viewpoints.

Well, as the Chinese ambassador said in an German interview; China has learned to endure and to smile throughout the whole 5000 years of culture. Like in that historical anecdote, where the ambassador of the poor state of Qi went to the wealthier state of Chu, where he was treated badly and being severely humilated by the host. But in the end, the Qi Ambassador still stood proudly and earned the respect from the state of Chu.
Too bad that dreaming, overzealous gullible idealist like most Germans dont know anything about respect and diplomatic tactfulness, but are only interested into converting infidels to their Great Religion of Democracy.

Unlike China, the Germans are cognizant of their recent history and collective responsibility that led to the deaths of 6 million innocent lives. Led by a "Machiavellian" despot called Adolf Hitler.

In order to prevent these tragic from occuring again, they need to involve themselves with exercising democratic values and norms on a daily basis. If they don't value or exercise their democratic freedoms and values, there's a good chance they may lose it.

The book fair was in some ways a coming out for China knowing that there is room to agree to disagree, having a thick face, and not throw a tantrum. It's also a lesson learned that China needs to give its writers greater access in the global publishing market and book tours.

Just as many of China's greatest films were banned at home in the 1990's, they launched the careers of China's greatest actors and directors on the world stage. I hope the same can be true of China's banned writers and thinkers that can make a contribution on the world stage.

Hongjian

10-20-2009, 04:23 PM

Unlike China, the Germans are cognizant of their recent history and collective responsibility that led to the deaths of 6 million innocent lives. Led by a "Machiavellian" despot called Adolf Hitler.

In order to prevent these tragic from occuring again, they need to involve themselves with exercising democratic values and norms on a daily basis. If they don't value or exercise their democratic freedoms and values, there's a good chance they may lose it.

The book fair was in some ways a coming out for China knowing that there is room to agree to disagree, having a thick face, and not throw a tantrum. It's also a lesson learned that China needs to give its writers greater access in the global publishing market and book tours.

Just as many of China's greatest films were banned at home in the 1990's, they launched the careers of China's greatest actors and directors on the world stage. I hope the same can be true of China's banned writers and thinkers that can make a contribution on the world stage.

LOLOL Hitler a Machiavellist? You must be joking.

Hitler grabbed his power by impressing the people with his idealistic dreams of an racially pure Utopia of Germany. The moral and virtue loving people just liked his intriguing speeches and his Obama-styled youthful idealism.
A Machiavellian would have gained power through superior tactics in a political chess-game - not by populism.
Also: Hitler cant be a machiavellian. he would have won the war if he were one. or better, he wouldnt have even started the war in the first place, because a true machiavellian would know that one cannot win against the entire world.

Hitler pretty much is everything Idealistic German political activists are all about: Dreamy, escapistic, self-righteous, self-opinionated, self-centred, stupid, believing in foolish dreams, zealous, preachy, plain retarded and just ANNOYING like f*ck.

Which are pretty much the traits which describes the glorious German Intelligensia present on the Frankfuhrter Buchmesse. Showed the same zeal, the same preachiness, the same self-rightousness, the same stupidity and the same retardness towards their ideological crusade for democracy and 'their values' to China, as their 'morally aware' and 'virtuous' countrymen showed by following the call of the 'white man's burden' during Imperial times or by hailing the **** out of Hitler and electing him in a fair and free democratic election... same hole, different sh*t.

Germans learned absolutely NOTHING from their history. They are still true believers of foolish ideals and dreams. Some day maybe a new Hitler makes them into killing 6 million Chinese, this time in the name of Holy Democracy, and they will still hail him. (of course everyone will claim to be either innocent or a resistance-fighter afterards... :D)

"In freier Wahl den Führer wählen"

China learned a lesson, if the lesson of the Olympics werent enough for her:
No matter how much you modernize, the West will always hate you and only accept total destruction and abandonment of your leadership and political system, which appears as a slap to the face of western superiority and their silly claim of univeralism of western values and political system in the sense of Fukuyama's 'End of History'.
So the conclusion: Never give a crap about their whinning again. If you have to kill Uighurs and Tibetans for teh profit, just do it. If you have to build up your economy and streghten your country at the expenses of the whole world, just do it. You can never make it right in their eyes, so just do whatever you like. Let them hate you, for it is better to be feared than to be loved. (Niccolo Machiavelli)

EDIT: And what 'contributions'? And to whom? The so-called 'world community'? Or (roflmao) 'world-family'? They dont exist.
Everyone is on its own in this hostile world, made of betrayal, hate and bloodshed. Only to provide the bored western intelligentsia-community with Chinese books and films about how much they hate their country, is just not worth China's loss in the fight for survival.

Solvent

10-20-2009, 04:30 PM

So the conclusion: Never give a crap about their whinning again. If you have to kill Uighurs and Tibetans for teh profit, just do it. If you have to build up your economy and streghten your country at the expenses of the whole world, just do it. You can never make it right in their eyes, so just do whatever you like. Let them hate you, for it is better to be feared than to be loved. (Niccolo Machiavelli)

That's right. The best return for all the haters out there is outlive them and live better than they do. :)

Ordie

10-20-2009, 04:59 PM

Hitler pretty much is everything Idealistic German political activists are all about: Dreamy, escapistic, self-righteous, self-opinionated, self-centred, stupid, believing in foolish dreams, zealous, preachy, plain retarded and just ANNOYING like f*ck.

Hitler was Austrian

Ordie

10-20-2009, 05:14 PM

Hitler grabbed his power by impressing the people with his idealistic dreams of an racially pure Utopia of Germany. A Machiavellian would have gained power through superior tactics in a political chess-game - not by populism..

To understand the nature of the people one must be a prince, and to understand the nature of the prince, one must be of the people.
-Niccolo Machiavelli

Jaegermeister + Red Bull

10-20-2009, 06:17 PM

Hitler was Austrian

To understand the nature of the people one must be a prince, and to understand the nature of the prince, one must be of the people.
-Niccolo Machiavelli

Hitler was an Austrian "prince" who understood the nature of the German people.

However, other than that he wasnt good at anything much else at being a "prince" in the sense of Niccolo Machiavelli. Being a prince is much more than just winning the popularity contest.

If he was a six pack of beer, he'd be at least 4 cans short...

CS1.6

10-21-2009, 06:38 AM

hey guys, here is the actual China development pictures,

take a look!!!!!!!!!!

http://bbs.news.163.com/bbs/photo/154376226.html?fromBbsFloat

Ordie

10-21-2009, 08:08 AM

Hongjian

10-21-2009, 11:02 AM

Hongjian,

You make the mistake of interpreting the ideas of a Renaissance era loser in today's context. The fact of the matter is that Machiavelli was a product of his time. The majority of the time he ended up on the losing side.

"The Prince" was more of a "warlord for dummies" handbook than to be a guiding enlightened scripture.

To understand Machiavelli, you need to read his biography, visit Tuscany and the fortress towns, read about his adversaries especially the de Medeci family and the Pope.
You also need to read the works of his contemporaries including Dante. Otherwise you use him as a means to rationalize your narrow views.

This is a common trait among Chinese like yourself who take the writings and quotations of Confucius, Marx and Mao and proof text them as a means to rationalize your thoughts and surrounding.

Of course one has to know the historical background of the development of each philosophical and political school of though. But even with knowing these facts, there are still timeless truth' which can be applied nearly anywhere. Ha. Even I will acknowledge bits of universalism If they just cant be proven wrong, because the wicked world just works like this.

And this is where Machiavelli is really timeless: The discription of a humanity, which is evil by nature. In harsh contrast to many other contemporary renaissance philosophers, who viewed the human nature as something positive (also to be understood as a counterreaction to the negative medieval Christian view of the human as a mislead 'sinner').

Of course the question wether humans are good or evil by nature is one of the most heavily discussed topics of philosophy, analogue to classical question about the meaning of life, but in the world we are living now, there are very few indications of a 'good' human nature.
Otherwise, there are also quite few clear indications of a human nature that's 'purely evil'.
What we see now, is, to state it quite soberly, a human nature that is driven not by compassion and love, nor by pure hate and resentment, but only by personal interests and fears. And both are either satisfied or averted by hard cold facts. No place for ideals, dreams nor romantism.

Just some examples:

Love is just a chemical reaction in the brain to support the human drive for either procreation or protection of his offspring (which is needed for the continous survival of the own race).

Hate is also just a chemical reaction in the brain to mobilize aggression laden energy to provide additional strenght and clears the mind from conscience/reason to kill something you feel threatened by.

True altruism doesent exist, even if someone is doing something for 'free' it would be at least to please himself, enabling his brain to emit hormones, leading to the fuzzy feeling of happiness, which in fact, supports the health of the body.

etc.

Knowing these basic facts, one can simply call BS on any possible ideological- or religious-dogmatism and nearly every
western invented ideology, value, belief and school of though, trying to sell you the laughable concept of a harmonious world family with common rules and virtue.

In the end, only machiavellian pragmatism and social darwinism survives without being called BS upon. No matter what historical background this school of though has, the world history proves them over and over.

The strong eats weak. And China dont want to be the weak. Thats why China must fight to survive, utilizing Virtù, Ambizione, Fortuna, Necessità and Occasione.For the rest of the world is doing pretty much the same.

EDIT: And yes. It could APPEAR that Machiavelli was a 'loser' in history, when comparing his popularity to the success of the positive, progressive renaissance schools of thought. Especially when his view on the world and on human society was pretty depressing, which simply didnt fit in the trend of the time, where one philosopher after another rediscovered the beauty of humanity.

But in reality he never lost. Because all leaders in the whole human history, even before he was born, always had utilized the fundamentals of his teaching, without even knowing it. Otherwise mankind wouldnt have survived this long in such a potential hostile world.

TheMiddlePath

10-22-2009, 12:49 AM

Learn from the United States. Might is right. If you have the might, you have the right.

Hongjian

10-22-2009, 10:10 AM

Learn from the United States. Might is right. If you have the might, you have the right.

Actually, China doesent really have to learn it from the United States, for China had already expierienced the (yes, in this particular case) universal validity of this simple and obvious equation on her own body. On the hard way. The first time in 1848 and everyday for almost 150 years since then:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg

A tiny island, not even a tenth of size as China, could beat the sh*t out of her and force her to sign unfair treaties and one-sided concessions, because one was literally 'helpless' against overwhelming technological and military power. Might makes indeed right.

Without hard, cold power to back them up, all treaties, alliances, rights and laws 'granted' to you, or claimed by you, are not worth the paper they are printed on.
Only might, ruthlessness and mutual assured destruction can save one from being a helpless rape-victim of international predators. Only then, one can have 'rights'.

So much for the 'rule of law'.

There are no laws or rights for you, if you cant claim them with 'credible arguments' made of steel, powder and blood.

So China, I'm still waiting for the introduction and deployment of the new DongFeng-41 ICBM, the Carrier Battle-Groups, DF-21 Anti Ship Ballistic Missile, Jian-14 5th gen. fighter, aggressive and expansionist military policy and the balls to tell the West honestly what you really think of them.
Only with these 'elemental tools' of international diplomacy, you can avert being used as the crack-whore of the world again.

Blue P

10-22-2009, 10:22 AM

No matter how much you modernize, the West will always hate you and only accept total destruction and abandonment of your leadership and political system, which appears as a slap to the face of western superiority and their silly claim of univeralism of western values and political system in the sense of Fukuyama's 'End of History'.totally agree with that.

So the conclusion: Never give a crap about their whinning again. If you have to kill Uighurs and Tibetans for teh profit, just do it. If you have to build up your economy and streghten your country at the expenses of the whole world, just do it. You can never make it right in their eyes, so just do whatever you like. Let them hate you, for it is better to be feared than to be loved. (Niccolo Machiavelli) not really, if some uiguhurs or tibetans got punished or even killed. it's not for the profit, but for the safety and benefit of the majority of the citizens. majority rules.

and yes, since we can never make it right in the western eyes. why are we ever bothered to try? for china, building a country with mighty economics and military, is the only way to survive. some brutal actions have to be taken, because we are living in a brutal world. and it never changes.

pretty interesting. cccp doesn't need to use propaganda to shift their people to the right to follow them these days. because west is helping persuade the chinese lefts to abandon their position.

Hongjian

10-22-2009, 10:38 AM

and yes, since we can never make it right in the western eyes. why are we ever bothered to try? for china, building a country with mighty economics and military, is the only way to survive. some brutal actions have to be taken, because we are living in a brutal world. and it never changes.

Right. Thats why I respect 'honest' countries like Israel, who are living by the premise, that probably the whole world is just out to kill them.

Reading a novel about the Israeli Mossad, there was a very concise quote, that described the situation pretty well:

"In our world, there are only two types of people: 'Enemies' and 'Neutrals'.
Regarding our enemies, we know exactly how to deal with them.
With the Neutrals, we also know how: Act friendly and smile at them, go for a drink with them and most importantly, use them. Take everything they have and never, ever return one single favor. Spit on their faces while smiling friendly, for we will never expect to have real 'friends' in this world."

pretty interesting. cccp doesn't need to use propaganda to shift their people to the right to follow them these days. because west is helping persuade the chinese lefts to abandon their position.Not only that the CCP propaganda is pretty stupid, low quality and simply laughable, one dosent even need to believe in them to see that the world is indeed filled with crap, which leads to the support of their realistic, machiavellian-pragmatist policies.
Especially Chinese people living in free, democratic societies will see this fact even clearer than the compariots in China, who are influenced by all that CCP Bullsh*t of a supposedly 'harmonious world', harbouring absolutely no ill-intentions towards the country and accepting its rise.

The more China-bashing, the more the people will believe that the west is out to get them and the more people will support the CCP.

So, dear westerners, if you really want to see the CCP losing its power, tell the Chinese how much you love them unconditionally.
Only then, you can hope to disrupt the relationship between the government and the people.

examples:

Stupid CCP Propaganda about a supposedly harmonious world, dreaming a 'common dream', where everyone loves and respects each other (or what ordinary Chinese believe):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhxh3expV10

And the Reality (only to be seen by oversea Chinese, living in the free, democratic West):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpjYeAEygHQ

FVCK YEAH!!!

Blue P

10-22-2009, 11:02 AM

Not only that the CCP propaganda is pretty stupid, low quality and simply laughable, one dosent even need believe in them to see that the world is indeed filled with crap, which leads to the support their realistic, machiavellian-pragmatist policies.
Especially Chinese people living in free, democratic societies will see it even clearer than the compariots in China, who are influenced by all that CCP Bullsh*t of a supposedly 'harmonious world' who are harbouring absolutely no ill-intentions towards the country.
The more China-bashing, the more the people will believe that the west is out to get them and the more people will support the CCP.

So, dear westerners, if you really want to see the CCP losing its power, tell the Chinese how much you love them unconditionally.
Only then, you can hope to disrupt the relationship between the government and the people. it's pretty funny that some people think as soon as cccp collapse, china will turn into a friendly country doing whatever he is asked to do. judging by my recent experience, if the party disappears all of the sudden, the country will be immediately seized by ultra-nationalists, who will be delighted to send them some slapping.

acosta

10-22-2009, 11:12 AM

it's pretty funny that some people think as soon as cccp collapse, china will turn into a friendly country doing whatever he is asked to do. judging by my recent experience, if the party disappears all of the sudden, the country will be immediately seized by ultra-nationalists, who will be delighted to send them some slapping.

Great point. A china without CCP would be totally nationalism, and going to be rather aggressive.

Shuimo

10-22-2009, 11:12 AM

it's pretty funny that some people think as soon as cccp collapse, china will turn into a friendly country doing whatever he is asked to do. judging by my recent experience, if the party disappears all of the sudden, the country will be immediately seized by ultra-nationalists, who will be delighted to send them some slapping.

If the CPC can tide over the next 20 years, it wud be pretty safe to ruel China for another 100 years!

Hongjian

10-22-2009, 12:12 PM

Chinese gangsters get death penalty in Chongqing trials

China has sentenced six gangsters to death for murder, machete attacks and price fixing amid growing fears over the expanding power of crime syndicates.

The execution orders in the city of Chongqing follow the arrests of senior police chiefs, prosecutors and more than 1,500 suspects in one of the biggest crackdowns in recent memory on "black societies", as the gangs are known.
The six were the first among hundreds expected to go on trial.

Twenty-five others accused of belonging to "mafia-style" organisations were given sentences ranging from one to 18 years in prison.
The trials are exposing sordid, deep-seated connections between organized crime and corrupt officials and police in the central mega-city of Chongqing. Among the suspects are the 46-year-old sister-in-law of the city's deputy police chief, who is accused of running 20 illegal gambling halls, all protected by the police.
Labeled the godmother of the Chongqing underworld, Xie Caiping's profanity-laced testimony drew a rebuke from the judge last week, but delighted the public, which reveled in tales in the local media that she kept 16 lovers.
Such salacious details and more - the lowly paid deputy police chief acquired a $4.4 million villa with his ill-gotten gains - have been given unusually riveting coverage by the state media, which normally shrinks from revelations of corruption that touch the ruling Communist Party.
The proceedings at the city's No. 5 Intermediate People's Court have drawn hundreds each day, among them victims like teahouse owner Chen, who was attacked three years ago and came to watch as handcuffed suspects wearing bright orange vests were escorted to trial.
"Although my case hasn't been solved yet, I already feel better. Many people who know my situation told me 'Chen Yanling, the day you've waited so long for has finally come. You're finally liberated,"' Chen said.
Chongqing's crackdown, which began last summer, has been surprisingly extensive, netting more than 1,544 suspects gangsters, prominent businessmen and 14 high-ranking officials. The latter include the second-in-command at the police criminal investigation division and the deputy director of the Higher People's Court, as well as a local legislator and the deputy director of the city's coal safety bureau.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/6403053/Chinese-gangsters-get-death-penalty-in-Chongqing-trials.html

better version with more backstory (sadly in german):

http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/mafia-in-china-auf-der-jagd-nach-den-triaden-1516003.html#utm_source=standard&utm_medium=rss

Finally, a strike against the syndicates in crime-infested Chongqing.

Probably by the personal command of Chairman Hu Jintao, Chief-Commissar Wang Lijun is really THE MAN. Otherwise he wouldnt have been able to touch all these high-ranking officials, without a powerful man strenghtening his back.

But only six death-penalties? One has at least to tortue and execute the families and connections of these criminals to crush the malicious guanxi of these people. If you want to remove a cancer, you have to cut the foul flesh surrounding it. If one just kill these men, the childrens and relatives will continue their crimes.

I hope they will be tortured and executed publicly and their rotting bodies impaled on spears, to serve as a warning for everyone.

But sadly, this wont happen. :-(

Ordie

10-22-2009, 01:52 PM

If the CPC can tide over the next 20 years, it wud be pretty safe to ruel China for another 100 years!

Not without reforms.

Ordie

10-23-2009, 10:45 AM

Chinese communist official warns cadres on morals

By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN, Associated Press Writer
Friday, October 23, 2009
(10-23) 05:32 PDT BEIJING, China (AP) --
Chinese communist cadres are being told to scorn prostitutes and avoid "vulgar" places of entertainment, in the latest bid to boost decaying morality and rein in corruption.
Li Yuanchao, head of the organization department that controls major personnel appointments, warned that officials could receive black marks in their behavioral assessments for visiting hostess bars, the state-run China News Service said.
Officials must avoid such temptations, since they are often a gateway to corruption and abuse of power and harm the image of the party and its cadres, Li said. He was quoted as issuing the warnings in recent speeches at the opening of fall classes at the party's official training academies.
Li's remarks follow similar ****ouncements by party leaders linking clean morals to graft, including one that claimed that 95 percent of corrupt officials had mistresses.
"Party cadres must refuse to allow themselves to be contaminated by that which is impure. Integrity and cleanliness cannot be separated," Li said.
"Of leading cadres who fall into the abyss of corruption, the majority start with an inability to remain pure," Li said.
Cadres should keep a wary eye on businessmen seeking to corrupt them, develop healthy outside interests, and cultivate friendships with ordinary folks and those of high moral and academic standing, Li said.
Citing a notorious example, Li said Lai Changxing, the kingpin in China's biggest ever smuggling scandal, had carefully studied the interests and habits of local officials in order to tempt and corrupt them.
Among other accusations, Lai is alleged to have run the famed "Red Mansion" in which he plied officials, including a deputy mayor in the port of Xiamen and the local customs chief, with liquor and prostitutes.
The 75 million-member party has struggled to control widespread practices of embezzlement, taking kickbacks, and influence peddling that have degraded public faith and sometimes led to violent protest.
Yet, it has proceeded haltingly toward enacting strong measures. Leaders meeting last month said they wanted to force top cadres to declare homes, investments, and their family member's jobs and incomes, but reached no consensus on how to do that.

Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/23/international/i001621D27.DTL&type=printable

If the CCP can crack down on the Uighurs, Tibetians and bad mouth the Dalai Lama, why can't they do the same on their own cronies?

Hongjian

10-23-2009, 01:44 PM

Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/23/international/i001621D27.DTL&type=printable

If the CCP can crack down on the Uighurs, Tibetians and bad mouth the Dalai Lama, why can't they do the same on their own cronies?

Because Uighurs and Tibetans cant enjoy the backing of a powerful guanxi, beside the ineffective support of rebellious organisations and stupid foreign NGO's/Intelligence Services, making them looking even worse than before.

But there is hope. Read my post about the crackdown in Chongqing. The Commissar Wang Lijun have dealt a heavy blow not only against the triads, but also official-corruption. And probably he could only do this by having powerful supporters from Zhongnanhai himself.

Hu Jintao said himselves, that "corruption is the biggest threat to CCP's legitimacy."

It's like in the old times, when the emperor lend his personal seal to one of his most trusted servants and ordered him to investigate crime and corruption in his empire by his name.
This seal lend the servant the power and the authority of the emperor to effectively crush the chancerous guanxi-networks of corruption, violence and lies.
There were also dynasties, where the emperor, clothed like an ordinary citizen and only protected by a handful plainclothed elite-bodyguards, inspected his realm personally, to see the truth his Ministers wont show him. Heaven save the one who dares to show any signs of corruption and incompetence before his eyes.

And now, in an empire this large, Emperor Hu cant deal with all the problems personally anymore. But at least he seemed to have lend his imperial-seal to a nearly unknown Commissar, which gave him the power to crack down on even the best connected official.

PLA murder probe officer gets top job (SCMP)
2009-03-27
The police official heading a probe into the murder of a People's Liberation Army guard outside a garrison in Chongqing was named public security chief of the southwestern municipality yesterday. Wang Lijun's promotion to Public Security Bureau director was endorsed by the municipality's people's congress yesterday, according to a local official who declined to be named. The appointment came exactly a week after Han Junliang, an 18-year-old soldier from Shandong, was gunned down and his sub-machine gun stolen outside a garrison in Gaoxin district. Mr Wang is reportedly the highest-ranking police officer overseeing investigations into the mysterious killing, which mainland authorities have labelled "a terrorist attack". He was promoted from the title of standing deputy head of Chongqing police. Dubbed the "anti-triad hero" and praised for his crime-busting work as public security chief in Tieling and Jinzhou, in northeastern Liaoning province, Mr Wang was considered a close friend of Bo Xilai, Chongqing's Communist Party secretary, separate local sources said yesterday. [...

Ah. The more you know....

Interesting guy.

Ordie

10-23-2009, 02:06 PM

Because Uighurs and Tibetans cant enjoy the backing of a powerful guanxi.

This is why China needs an independent judiciary.

Hongjian

10-24-2009, 02:28 PM

Mao's "People's War" Doctrine, even on the interbutts.

For years, the U.S. intelligence community worried that China’s government was attacking our cyber-infrastructure. Now one man has discovered it’s worse: It’s hundreds of thousands of everyday civilians. And they’ve only just begun.

By Mara Hvistendahl Posted 04.23.2009 at 10:34 am

Some pictures by Scott Henderson.

Goodwell: Founder of the Green Army, with a membership of as many as 3,000, Goodwell is perhaps China’s most famous hacker, directly or indirectly responsible for hacking countless foreign Web sites Courtesy Scott Henderson

Xiao Tian: In the male-dominated world of hacking, Xiao Tian, leader of a female hacker group called the China Girl Security Team, is a rarity. Her 2,200-plus-member group is responsible for several defacements. Courtesy Scott Henderson

Withered Rose: His group, NCPH, built viruses that may have stolen classified U.S. documents. Withered Rose represented the Sichuan Military Command in a hacker competition against other provinces—and won. courtesy Scott Henderson

Quote:

"There were localized clubs, whose members saw one another regularly. There were fleeting groups, whose sites appeared and disappeared in a matter of weeks. There were kid hackers, femme-fatale hackers and hacker wannabes (although most hackers are simply computer-savvy 20-somethings -- what Henderson calls "normal guys"). One group penned a theme song. Henderson recognized early on that such publicity ploys were not the work of the state. "If this was some secret government-run organization," he says, "it was the most horribly run secret government organization in the universe."

Instead, Chinese hackers work in small, competing crews, he found. During moments of crisis, like the 2001 EP-3 collision, the groups band together into coalitions called "Chinese emergency conference centers." The Red Hacker Alliance, often described in the Western press as a monolithic group, is in fact a loose association allowing disparate cells to coordinate their efforts.

But the largest unifying characteristic is nationalism. In a 2005 Hong Kong Sunday Morning Post article, a man identified as "the Godfather of hackers" explains, "Unlike our Western [hacker] counterparts, most of whom are individualists or anarchists, Chinese hackers tend to get more involved with politics because most of them are young, passionate, and patriotic." Nationalism is hip, and hackers -- who spearhead nationalist campaigns with just a laptop and an Internet connection -- are figures to revere."

Comments---

From China, where I've lived for four years, this assessment looks spot-on. Hackers are pervasive, their imprint inescapable. There are hacker magazines, hacker clubs and hacker online serials. A 2005 Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences survey equates hackers and rock stars, with nearly 43 percent of elementary-school students saying they "adore" China's hackers. One third say they want to be one. This culture thrives on a viral, Internet-driven nationalism. The post-Tiananmen generation has known little hardship, so rather than pushing for democracy, many young people define themselves in opposition to the West. China's Internet patriots, who call themselves "red hackers," may not be acting on direct behalf of their government, but the effect is much the same.

Continued on the link
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-04/hackers-china-syndrome?page=4

Ordie

10-26-2009, 03:41 AM

October 26, 2009

Salute All Cars, Kids. It’s a Rule in China.

By SHARON LaFRANIERE
HUANGPING, China (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) — All the students at Luolang Elementary School, a yellow-and-orange concrete structure off a winding mountain road in southern China, know the key rules: Do not run in the halls. Take your seat before the bell rings. Raise your hand to ask a question.
And oh, yes: Salute every passing car on your way to and from school.
Education officials promoted the saluting edict to reduce traffic accidents and teach children courtesy. Critics, who have posted thousands of negative comments about the policy on China’s electronic bulletin boards, beg to differ. “This is just pitiful,” wrote one in a post last year. Only inept officials would burden children with such a requirement rather than install speed bumps, others insisted.
This is hardly the only nation where local bureaucrats sometimes run a bit too free. But in China, where many local officials are less than well trained and only the party can eject them from office, local governments’ dubious edicts are common enough that skewering them has become a favorite pastime of China’s Web users. Even the state-run media join in, although they rarely report who was behind the rules or suggest that they indicate a lack of competence to govern.
Often, the skewering gets results. In April, one county in Hubei Province in central China drew nationwide ridicule after officials ordered civil servants and employees of state-owned companies to buy a total of 23,000 packs of the province’s brand of cigarettes every year. Departments whose employees failed to buy enough cigarettes or bought other Chinese brands would be fined, the media reported.
County officials said the increased revenue from the cigarette tax would buoy the local economy. After several weeks of embarrassment, Gongan County officials posted a short message on the government’s Web site that read: “We have decided to remove this edict.”
Officials of Hanchuan, a city in Hubei Province, tried a similar ploy, with the same effect. Determined to boost the local brand of baijiu, a sinus-clearing distilled clear liquor (http://www.drinkfocus.com/articles/asian-liquors/baijiu.php), they ordered state workers to buy a total of about $300,000 worth in a year. Reporters calculated that each employee would have had to buy three bottles a day to meet the quota. The rule was later rescinded.
Another county in Guizhou Province in southern China compelled state workers last year to help inflate the number of tourists visiting the ruins of an ancient village. Every government office was ordered to organize field trips to the site so the county could report 5,000 visitors within two months.
The involuntary visitors had to take several buses to get to a village 20 miles from the county seat. From there, they hired motorcycles to carry them another nine miles down dirt roads, the newspaper Guangzhou Daily reported.
The Guizhou Commercial News reported that some government offices were left unattended while state employees served as tourists. The next month that order, too, was repealed.
But a 2003 regulation that bars male officials in Sichuan Province from hiring female secretaries may still be on the books. China Youth Daily (http://www.cyol.net/english/intro/daily.htm) reported then that the official who initiated the regulation wanted “to ensure that work can be carried out.”
An official in the Communist Party’s provincial office said in an interview that she was not aware of a written rule.
No one ever precisely pinned down the origin of an order this May to kill all dogs in the town of Heihe, on the Russian border in the far northwest. Media reports suggested one town official became irate after a dog bit him as he strolled along a river. But the official refused to confirm that.
Town leaders organized teams of police officers and ordered them to beat to death any dog who ventured into a public space. China National Radio, a state-run agency, broadcast the citizens’ outrage. “When we need to walk our dogs now, we have to first go out and look for cops,” one dog owner lamented.
Scholars say the proliferation of such regulations stems from a lack of professionalism among some local officials.
The Communist Party has been trying in recent years to correct these problems by providing better training and more channels for public feedback. Party schools that groom officials now stress administrative skills as well as ideology. Job evaluations are supposed to be based on concrete results.
Some local officials who used regulations to bilk the public have been dealt with harshly. The party secretary of Feicheng, a town in northeastern China, was fired after imposing a fine of $73 on any farmer who cut down a corn stalk without a license. Farmers complained that they could not harvest their corn without fear of being penalized.
Officials of China’s 637,001 villages seem especially ****e to excess regulatory zeal. Until being overruled by higher-ups in 2005, for instance, officials of a village in Chongqing forced unmarried women to pass a chastity test before receiving compensation for farmland appropriated by the government. They argued that only virgins deserved compensation.
In comparison, Huangping County’s policy of roadside salutes is arguably benign. Education officials say compliance is strictly voluntary. Asked whether they follow it, elementary students here tend to burst into nervous giggles.
The rule’s purpose is twofold: to keep children safer on the county’s corkscrew mountain roads and to teach manners. Nearly 30 schools are located along roads without sidewalks or speed bumps. Signs posting speed limits are few and far between; virtually no signs indicate a school nearby.
Long Guoping, deputy chief of the county education bureau, said those measures were coming. “Little by little, the government is installing them,” he said. In the meantime, the salute “might avoid some accidents,” he said. “It allows the drivers to notice the children and the children to notice the drivers.”
Luo Rongmei, who teaches first grade at Luolong Elementary School, is all for it. “Since they started saluting there has not been one traffic accident,” she said, as the students ran and shouted in the yard.
Guo Yuozhang, 63, whose grandson attends the Loulong school, said he was more ambivalent. If the cars come from one direction, “that is not too bad,” said.
Cars coming in both directions is a bigger hassle. “Sometimes they are just turning in circles and they get kind of stuck,” he said. He spun around to illustrate the point, smiling slyly.
Xiyun Yang and Sun Huan contributed research from Beijing.
An earlier version of this article misstated the location of Hubei Province. It is in central China, not northern China.
Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/world/asia/26salute.html?ref=world&pagewanted=print

Eventine

10-26-2009, 12:55 PM

This is why China needs an independent judiciary.

I think you overestimate the degree to which radical transformations in political culture can occur within a short time span. Sure, China can implement an "independent" judiciary, but how do you guarantee that this judiciary won't also be based on guanxi?

"Who will watch the watchmen?"

Hongjian

10-26-2009, 01:00 PM

I think you overestimate the degree to which radical transformations in political culture can occur within a short time span. Sure, China can implement an "independent" judiciary, but how do you guarantee that this judiciary won't also be based on guanxi?

"Who will watch the watchmen?"

truth.

Even with a democratic system and a free press, guanxi and corruption will reign the country.

"who will watch the watchmen, who is the brother-in-law of the one who is supposed to watch over other watchmen."

That's just China. Nothing of value was lost.

Ordie

10-26-2009, 02:02 PM

I think you overestimate the degree to which radical transformations in political culture can occur within a short time span. Sure, China can implement an "independent" judiciary, but how do you guarantee that this judiciary won't also be based on guanxi?

"Who will watch the watchmen?"

Ask a Singaporean, they live a country with a Chinese majority population.

It is ranked #4 globally for being the least corrupt country.

Hong Kong is ranked #14

Japan # 17

Macao #34

Taiwan #34

China #72

The concept of Guangxi is feudal. They should ban it completely as it puts people in position of mandatory social obligationsand creates barriers for the underclass.

Especially when it comes to justice. Where the accused may use his guangxi connections to escape prosecution.

Eventine

10-26-2009, 02:22 PM

Solvent

10-26-2009, 02:25 PM

Ordie

10-26-2009, 02:43 PM

How can you ban Guangxi (networking) completely?

I was just ranting.

But the best means to eliminate the negative aspects of Guanxi, is to make it irrelevant.

Many of my Chinese neighbors in the US thrive in an environment where they are not expected to pull strings others or rely on others to get things done on a daily basis.

They often tell me they feel more empowered and in control in the US and will not consider moving back to China or Taiwan. They tell me that belonging to a guanxi is just too much baggage.

Solvent

10-26-2009, 04:14 PM

I was just ranting.

But the best means to eliminate the negative aspects of Guanxi, is to make it irrelevant.

Many of my Chinese neighbors in the US thrive in an environment where they are not expected to pull strings others or rely on others to get things done on a daily basis.

They often tell me they feel more empowered and in control in the US and will not consider moving back to China or Taiwan. They tell me that belonging to a guanxi is just too much baggage.

I actually more consider it developing problem, instead of mentality problem. Especially in China, the government and state owned companies are holding too much resources. The positions on those sections are stable and paid well. Due to nature of management style (people never being fired and stay forever), networking obviously plays very important role.

Meanwhile, the private companies which are major suppliers for jobs are still under development. They are lack of regulation and protection of labor law. That's why people prefer those limited jobs in government and state-run companies. When the demand is much bigger than supply, Guanxi is powerful.

Jaegermeister + Red Bull

10-27-2009, 08:04 AM

And here is the crux of the problem: corruption/guanxi/networking cant be solved by simply having democracy, free press, and/or even an independent judiciary. Nor can they be only attributed to problems of authoritarian, state controlled, dictatorships.

Those are merely processes and systems, not causal relationships. One could argue they would have an effect, one could argue otherwise. What causes change is people, and people havent changed.

Most people in western country would irk but accept that favouritism at workplace is part and parcel, especially if the involved are related. And that unionized industries like wharfs/power stations/public ultilities are closed shops, you got to know someone to get in. However most are civic minded enough and/or aware that collusion in politics/judicial areas are most serious transgressions against society as a whole and is therefore not accepted and transgressors are most severely punished by society.

In China most people still accept generally corruption/guanxi as part and parcel of the ruling as long as the going is good and they can make a decent living. That gulf in perception isnt going to change overnight.

Ordie, you have the right idea: to make it irrelevant. Where you differ is how you see that is best achieved: for you its through change to political culture/system.

Politics are simply the arena of non-violent battle/struggle/conflict practiced by men, and men practice what they know and what they know well. In China atm, they are practising a form thats been honed for a few thousand years. And its not called democracy.

Most Westerners want it to change now, and see this only as a question of when.

Most Chinese see this not as a question of when, but only want it to change ever so gradually and peacefully above all else. And if the supposed change doesnt help the system, why change at all?

Just my rant.

Hongjian

10-27-2009, 09:22 AM

Ask a Singaporean, they live a country with a Chinese majority population.

It is ranked #4 globally for being the least corrupt country.

Hong Kong is ranked #14

Japan # 17

Macao #34

Taiwan #34

China #72

The concept of Guangxi is feudal. They should ban it completely as it puts people in position of mandatory social obligationsand creates barriers for the underclass.

Especially when it comes to justice. Where the accused may use his guangxi connections to escape prosecution.

Aaaand here we come back to the cultural issue... my all time favorite.

Guanxi is not only something feudal, but also something thats deeply rooted within the Chinese culture, influenced by Confucianism (worthship your ancestors, parents, relatives, friends) and the hereby resulting clan-based, connection-based social order.

I like how you advocate the 'ban' of Guanxi. This is also my opinion! We Chinese should start to sh*t on our parents, our friends and our relatives and become emotionless machines who are only working by the rules of law. Which isnt new. Qin Dynasty 200 BC - Legalism. Sadly, only worked for 15 or so years, before Confucianism and corruption took over the country again.

If my father was a police-chief and I'm a murderer, he would cover me, since family bound is standing above all.
If I was a police-chief and my father a murdering rapist, I would also cover him, since Confucius told me to worthship my parents.
If my friend was the boss of the influencial local newspaper, he would also cover me/my father, since the cordial bound of friendship is something sacred.

This is the ugly backside of the Chinese culture with its destinctive, well developed structure of family virtues and social conscience, which provides security for the individual in a millenias-old society existing without social justice.

Thats why: What you advocate would be the same like me: A second Cultural Revolution and 1984-styled brainwashing campaign to root out any signs of guanxi, corruption and Chinese mentality. Turning China into a blank-sheet. A state made of machines.

PS.
And you should never forget why Singapore is so good in terms of corruption. They are the very epitome of a modern legalist society, ruled by a machiavellian autocracy. Ever tried to throw away a cig on the street in Singapore?
Qin Shihuang would be proud of Singapore: Draconian Laws, even for the most petty 'crimes', enforced by Ghurka Mercenaries carrying large, intimidating knifes. A well functionating police-state, where only obedience and effectivity counts.
No emotions. No remorse. No mercy.

This is the China I want to see. A China ruled by the law and not by interpersonal guanxi and other fuzzy feelings.

Solvent

10-27-2009, 11:00 AM

Thats why: What you advocate would be the same like me: A second Cultural Revolution and 1984-styled brainwashing campaign to root out any signs of guanxi, corruption and Chinese mentality. Turning China into a blank-sheet. A state made of machines.

No, culture-revolution-styled campaign can't solve the problem. Without living standard improving and enough resource to go around, what the campaign can do the best is just to make everybody equally poor. Besides, the direction of the large-scaled campaign is very hard to control. This is the last thing I want to see nowadays.

However, I do agree with you. To enhance the law is the way to go. First give the independence to the law, and then respect the authority of the law.

Ordie

10-27-2009, 11:44 AM

Hongjian

10-27-2009, 01:24 PM

Excellent posts!
I learned a lot today.

In my opinion, one of the best means of making the corrosive elements of the Guangxi irrelevant, is to allow civil society to emerge and grow.

We had seen a peek of this in people's reaction and initiative to helping the earthquake victims in Shezuan. Encouraging and allowing independent non governmental organizations will go a long way towards developing a civil society.

Hongjian,

Bringing up Macchiaveli again?
One of these days we should meet in Tuscany, get a bottle of Chianti and debate the merits of Macchiaveli Italian style. Gestures and all.

I was not bringing him up. At least not knowingly. 'Machiavellian' is also an adjective for ruthlessness and pragmatism, the last time I checked...

Also, this is done to death. I debated with my overly idealistic jurisprudence professor back then at university over machiavellism far too long.

But for a bottle of Chianti? Why not. :)

Blue P

10-27-2009, 08:14 PM

No, culture-revolution-styled campaign can't solve the problem.

exactly. if china shifts back to extreme liberalism (culture revolution) again, the country will be back in chaos. it is the very last thing we need, to chinese and the others.

and about the corruption, i really don't see a good answer to that. the problem about china, is there are so many people and many of us tempt to find a hole in the system and take advantage of that to get rich. so the centre government has to spend a lot resource on hiring people to patch the holes constantly. which is never able to fulfil its duty and eventually breeds bureaucrats. and in many cases, the anti corruption agents fall into the ranks of corrupts immediately.

sadly, in my opinion. corruption is like a cureless cancer in china.

Solvent

10-27-2009, 09:59 PM

exactly. if china shifts back to extreme liberalism (culture revolution) again, the country will be back in chaos. it is the very last thing we need, to chinese and the others.

and about the corruption, i really don't see a good answer to that. the problem about china, is there are so many people and many of us tempt to find a hole in the system and take advantage of that to get rich. so the centre government has to spend a lot resource on hiring people to patch the holes constantly. which is never able to fulfil its duty and eventually breeds bureaucrats. and in many cases, the anti corruption agents fall into the ranks of corrupts immediately.

sadly, in my opinion. corruption is like a cureless cancer in china.

To completely weed out corruption is impossible due to human natural. To decrease it, however, is possible. If we look back the history, the corruption destroyed dynasty after dynasty. Seems like there is no solutions at all.

All the dynasties have similarities. The governments controlled vital resources and prevented the access for people to get education.This absolute power only lead to self destruction of a dynasty. And new dynasty went down the same road as well. The death cycle has been last thousands of years.

I am optimistic on corruption decreasing of China. Today, the private business sector is flourish more than ever. People have relatively freedom to travel around and move to different locations. People have options to choose not to bribe in order to make living. Actually, in my opinion, this is the first time for China to have chance to jump out the cycle. However, uncertainties are still there. It's no easy task.

Blue P

10-27-2009, 10:05 PM

To completely weed out corruption is impossible due to human natural. To decrease it, however, is possible. If we look back the history, the corruption destroyed dynasty after dynasty. Seems like there is no solutions at all.

All the dynasties have similarities. The governments controlled vital resources and prevented the access for people to get education.This absolute power only lead to self destruction of a dynasty. And new dynasty went down the same road as well. The death cycle has been last thousands of years.

I am optimistic on corruption decreasing of China. Today, the private business sector is flourish more than ever. People have relatively freedom to travel around and move to different locations. People have options to choose not to bribe in order to make living. Actually, in my opinion, this is the first time for China to have chance to jump out the cycle. However, uncertainties are still there. It's no easy task.

the problem is, chinese don't realize, that bribing is a serious crime as long as it's not carried out by the high ranks.

the corruption by the top does most the damage to the country. but its root, is amongst the normal people.

Solvent

10-27-2009, 10:36 PM

the problem is, chinese don't realize, that bribing is a serious crime as long as it's not carried out by the high ranks.

the corruption by the top does most the damage to the country. but its root, is amongst the normal people.

No, corruption culture does the most damage.

Shuimo

10-28-2009, 02:37 AM

Loss of lives of three youthful college students to save 2 drowning kids unnverves the money-obessed, mind-numbing mentality of the Chinese public! (http://news.ifeng.com/society/special/daxueshengjiuren/)

Ordie

10-28-2009, 02:51 AM

Shuimo

10-28-2009, 04:10 AM

Meo xue gouyou.

Shuimo, whats the subject of the story.
Here is a more detailed account of the tragic story in Chinadaily!
Three younglives riseabove death (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2009-10/28/content_8858266.htm)

Loss of three blossoming youthful lives! Rest in peace!
http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/25/10/ef8c3f0fa0115314aca09205c5b5178b.jpg http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/25/10/b44a4fdd222229fced89da968c141891.jpg

http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/25/10/bd4b5b10285737a6ded1b6062d347360.jpg

Shuimo

10-28-2009, 04:29 AM

http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/5d2b976e3e6638a7b5b6089b1cb4fd99.jpg

http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/7950510f4e3c98e5692fd8f74461b97d.jpg

http://img.ifeng.com/res/200910/1028-111031_5044_1.jpg

Place of the tragedy
http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/1fa69400b2f149f9f5659f57af052cd7.jpg[/URL]

A tragey that would most probably have been avoided if the fishermen nearby on a boat had offered a helping hand upon the begging of the studnets to save the drowning kids!

[URL="http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/5d2b976e3e6638a7b5b6089b1cb4fd99.jpg"] (http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/1fa69400b2f149f9f5659f57af052cd7.jpg)

hskywalker

10-28-2009, 07:54 AM

A tragey that would most probably have been avoided if the fishermen nearby on a boat had offered a helping hand upon the begging of the studnets to save the drowning kids!

Heroic deeds for some 19 year olds who left home with nobel beliefs, thinking entering another big school but really walking into society unprepaired.

Btw, those more looks like a coal tug boat, very immobile. And people have reasons to be uncompassionate in this society. I have tried to be a nice person helping my collegues(typical guy, short cash, bad background , difficulty at work), only later to taste the bitter fruit. And remember those drivers who helped in traffic accidents?

People must first learn to survive in this jungle society.

Ordie

10-28-2009, 10:45 AM

Courage is the ladder from which all other virtues mount from.
My prayers and thoughts are with the families and victims.
Rest in peace.

Solvent

10-28-2009, 10:58 AM

http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/5d2b976e3e6638a7b5b6089b1cb4fd99.jpg

http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/7950510f4e3c98e5692fd8f74461b97d.jpg

http://img.ifeng.com/res/200910/1028-111031_5044_1.jpg

Place of the tragedy
http://img.ifeng.com/hres/200910/28/14/1fa69400b2f149f9f5659f57af052cd7.jpg

A tragey that would most probably have been avoided if the fishermen nearby on a boat had offered a helping hand upon the begging of the studnets to save the drowning kids!

Right now, the nearby fishermen boat is still rumor. But according to what I read, the boat seems to be not far away when things happened.

Somebody says the fishermen are not fishermen. They are always waiting there to make money out of retrieving bodies. It's disgusting profession. I hope we can have some kind of law which can punish indifferent behaviors.

Ordie

10-28-2009, 11:04 AM

Somebody says the fishermen are not fishermen. They are always waiting there to make money out of retrieving bodies. It's disgusting profession. I hope we can have some kind of law which can punish indifferent behaviors.

If the police or fire department are not willing to take the initiative to retrieve and investigate floating corpses, somebody else has to do it.

I see it as a dignified and compassionate profession to retrieve loved ones and keep the waterways clean.

Solvent

10-28-2009, 11:09 AM

If the police or fire department are not willing to take the initiative to retrieve and investigate floating corpses, somebody else has to do it.

I see it as a dignified and compassionate profession to retrieve loved ones and keep the waterways clean.

According to old saying, the slogan of the profession is: "Not to save lives, but save dead."

But you are right, I shouldn't have criticized the whole profession. It's just individual's behavior.

Blue P

10-28-2009, 02:39 PM

If the police or fire department are not willing to take the initiative to retrieve and investigate floating corpses, somebody else has to do it.

I see it as a dignified and compassionate profession to retrieve loved ones and keep the waterways clean.

making money out of dead people is one thing. setting there and waiting for people to drown so they can charge the victims' relatives is another.

the culture revolution and the huge gap between rich and poor have diminished chinese morality.

Ordie

10-28-2009, 06:47 PM

making money out of dead people is one thing. setting there and waiting for people to drown so they can charge the victims' relatives is another.

the culture revolution and the huge gap between rich and poor have diminished chinese morality.

My apologies, I didn't understand the context.

With exception of many (I hope). What are the guiding values and norms that allows the Chinese to be complaicent and indifferent towards each other?

Blue P

10-28-2009, 07:05 PM

My apologies, I didn't understand the context.

With exception of many (I hope). What are the guiding values and norms that allows the Chinese to be complaicent and indifferent towards each other?

what i wanted to say is, i cannot blame these 'fishmen' for making profit by dragging bodies out of the water. but they saw the students drowning and didn't help becuase that would bring in no cash. that, was very wrong.

confuchism was brought down during the culture revolution. without the reinforcing of our morality value, the conutry has some really big trouble now. if you pass out on the road, few will lift you up and send you to hospital. if you got robbed in broad day light, few will help to fight the thugs away.

Ordie

10-28-2009, 07:26 PM

confuchism was brought down during the culture revolution. without the reinforcing of our morality value, the conutry has some really big trouble now. if you pass out on the road, few will lift you up and send you to hospital. if you got robbed in broad day light, few will help to fight the thugs away.

I recall during my visit to Beijing. The lady in front of me tripped and fell on the sidewalk. Naturally I offered my assistance and hand and if she was okay. It was strange to see people just looking at us (or me) not offering a hand. I thought people were shy about the language barrier.

Then again, I was taken away at the public response and initiative to assist the earthquake victims.

Blue P

10-28-2009, 07:35 PM

I recall during my visit to Beijing. The lady in front of me tripped and fell on the sidewalk. Naturally I offered my assistance and hand and if she was okay. It was strange to see people just looking at us (or me) not offering a hand. I thought people were shy about the language barrier.

Then again, I was taken away at the public response and initiative to assist the earthquake victims.

the earth quake aid was a different story. the help from ngo was mainly driven by nationalism. it was more like a 'my nation will not let down the victims. and i'm doing my part' thing.

but if you want to see love amongst normal people in china, you might need to wait another 15 or 20 year. when the generation grew up during the culture revolution fades away, things might start to change.

LazerLordz

10-30-2009, 09:58 AM

PS.
And you should never forget why Singapore is so good in terms of corruption. They are the very epitome of a modern legalist society, ruled by a machiavellian autocracy. Ever tried to throw away a cig on the street in Singapore?
Qin Shihuang would be proud of Singapore: Draconian Laws, even for the most petty 'crimes', enforced by Ghurka Mercenaries carrying large, intimidating knifes. A well functionating police-state, where only obedience and effectivity counts.
No emotions. No remorse. No mercy.

This is the China I want to see. A China ruled by the law and not by interpersonal guanxi and other fuzzy feelings.

PS : We don't have Gurkhas prowling the streets, and there's tons of places here with more than fags strewn about on the floor.

No, we're not pristine and we're definitely not a police-state, despite what certain rights groups would have people think. A typical weekend brawl at downtown clubbing districts takes place without any police arriving for a very long time. ;)

That said, I wish there was less litter and punks who start brawls get booked more often.

My take on guanxi? Being culturally embedded, you won't remove it or even reform it entirely within one generation. What you need are punitive measures against visible signs of it in the initial stages, and then a culture of whistle-blowing has to take root and sustain itself. That itself takes mindset shifts which can only come about with a more liberated individual climate and a sense of social well-being felt by an ordinary citizen that is more than just self-satisfaction.

Like some have mentioned, guanxi thrives when the good life can be gotten from it.

hskywalker

10-31-2009, 01:03 PM

Locals has been trying to assault those fishermen. Subotaging their properties.:) Makes me thinking of those boycott of carrefour stores.

Hongjian

10-31-2009, 03:51 PM

http://www.peopleforum.cn/redirect.php?tid=3283&goto=lastpost

'Father of space technology' -- Qian Xuesen dies

China's keystone space scientist Qian Xuesen, widely acclaimed as the country's "father of space technology" and "king of rocketry", died of illness in Beijing Saturday morning at the age of 98. In 1956, based on Qian's position paper on the country's defense and aviation industry, the central government set up an aviation industry committee, which later became the leading organization for China's missile and aviation programs.
Under the guidance of Qian, also known as Tsien Hsue-shen, China finished the blueprint on developing jet and rocket technology. He also played a significant role in developing the country's first artificial earth satellite.
"Mr. Qian used to hold academic seminars for us. We exchanged scientific ideas and wrote articles together. The whole time when we worked with Mr. Qian had a great influence on us," Yu Jingyuan, a senior researcher with the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation told Xinhua Saturday afternoon on hearing the news.
In one of Qian's legendary stories, a missile project team encountered repeated failures during the engine experiments in 1950s. Team members couldn't figure out what was wrong and turned to him. In a meeting, Qian paced around the room, listened to everyone's ideas and ask them further questions for about 40 minutes. He then hinted the team that they should take into account the high-frequency vibration when the engine was running.
He was right. In June 1964, China successfully created its first medium- and short-range missile, marking the start of the country's first missile defense system nuclear weapon.
During the man-made satellite project, when everyone else was not sure that the satellite would work perfectly in space given the limited testing facilities, Qian researched piles of documents and papers and wrote, "In my opinion, the satellite is done."
On April 24, 1970, "Dongfanghong-I (Red East 1)", the country's first man-made satellite, was successfully launched.
Yu Jingyuan said Qian had very deep understanding of his own profession and also had a wide knowledge regarding many other fields. "He was a true science leader and master with brilliant scientific and philosophic thinking."
Qian, a member of both the Chinese Academy of Sciences and the Chinese Academy of Engineering, graduated from Shanghai Jiao Tong University in 1934.
In 1935, he went to study in the aviation department of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and later studied aviation engineering at the California Institute of Technology. In 1939, he received a doctorate in aviation and mathematics.
In 1947, 36-year-old Qian was already a professor at the Massachusetts Institute.
According to his son Qian Yonggang, the Kuomintang once invited Qian to come back but he refused. He returned to the mainland after the new China was founded.
However, Qian's road home was not smooth.
Documents show that amid the McCarthyism in the 1950s, allegations were made that he was a communist who stole confidential information about the U.S. government.
Qian was put in prison for 15 days, followed by a 5-year house arrest under surveillance of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
In June 1955, a letter from Qian managed to get out of the U.S. border and finally reached then Premier Zhou Enlai, resulting in Sino-U.S. talks which led to his release.
Together with his wife and two children, Qian sailed for more than a month before arriving in the mainland.
On the official BBS of the Shanghai Jiao Tong University, where Qian majored in mechanic engineering from 1929 to 1934, many alumni still couldn't believe the news while replies to the posts soon topped 850 in six hours.
Many regarded his death as "a superstar fell" and expressed their blessings for him -- "Dear Mr. Qian, rest in peace. We will never forget your achievements."
According to the Shanghai Jiao Tong University Press, the press is currently compiling a picture album of Qian and a collection of his writings based on 800-plus-page documents retrieved from the U.S. National Archives, which include details about his encounters with the U.S. government and his trip back home.
The picture book will be released soon and the writing compilation is due to come out in next spring.
Although Qian, a Hangzhou native in east China's Zhejiang Province, had long been a Beijing resident, his hometown friends feel close to him.
In one of the most popular local web portal "19 lou", more than 8,000 visitors read the news in three hours.
"Masters, you've always been the mental support for us post-70s generation but one by one you're gone... Our country needs more masters like you..." wrote a netizen named "sheliqiang" in a hundred-word reply.
On Saturday, a documentary about Qian, produced by Xinhua, has been broadcast on the Internet and the agency's TV channel. Taiwan's Eastern Television will also air the program on Saturday evening.
"He was a 'people's scientist' with firm political belief and pure moralities," researcher Yu Jingyuan said.Too bad that he can no longer see the first Chinese on the moon. But at least he contributed much to a credible nuclear deterrence, no man would have believed 60 years ago. And 98 years is still a good age. May his contributions continue to help protecting China in the future.

kthxbye
It was fun while it lasted.

*salutes*

LazerLordz

11-01-2009, 12:53 AM

http://www.peopleforum.cn/redirect.php?tid=3283&goto=lastpost

Too bad that he can no longer see the first Chinese on the moon. But at least he contributed much to a credible nuclear deterrence, no man would have believed 60 years ago. And 98 years is still a good age. May his contributions continue to help protecting China in the future.

kthxbye
It was fun while it lasted.

*salutes*

RIP, Qian Xuesen.

goat89

11-01-2009, 12:58 AM

He led a rather interesting life.
RIP Qian Xuesen.

Shuimo

11-04-2009, 08:16 AM

Shuimo

11-04-2009, 08:24 AM

China and Parkistan in negotiations for builiding railways and highways linking oil-rich Middle East and West China across Parkistan! (http://news.ifeng.com/world/200911/1104_16_1420137.shtml)

Shuimo

11-04-2009, 08:59 AM

China bureaucratic war over online Warcraft heats up

Wed Nov 4, 2009 12:09am EST

By Chris Buckley and Melanie Lee (http://blogs.*******.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=melanie.lee&)
BEIJING, Nov 4 (*******) - China's Culture Ministry has accused the publishing watchdog of abusing its authority by threatening access to the popular online game, World of Warcraft, stoking bureaucratic rivalry over control of the Internet.
The ministry scolded the General Administration of Press and Publication (GAPP), which had told Chinese online game firm NetEase.com (NTES.O (http://www.*******.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=NTES.O)) not to operate the latest version of Activision Blizzard's (ATVI.O (http://www.*******.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=ATVI.O)) World of Warcraft, the Chinese-language Economic Information Daily said on Wednesday.
NetEase has said it is examining the demand.
The rare public turf war between the two agencies has exposed the tricky regulatory undergrowth that Internet companies must navigate in China.
"This just highlights the overall risks of investing in China, given that the Internet is a new industry and China itself is an emerging economy," said **** Wei, an analyst with JP Morgan in Hong Kong.
China's Communist Party leadership has demanded tighter control over the Internet and online gaming, worried about images and words it sees as ****ographic, unhealthy or subversive.
Government agencies have in turn been eager to enforce those demands, and competed to stake out control of the potentially lucrative and prestigious sector, and reap the regulatory fees.
"The Ministry of Culture believes the notice from the General Administration of Press and Publication does not conform to the relevant regulations, and clearly oversteps its authority," said Li Xiong, a Ministry of Culture (MOC) official in charge of market affairs, according to the Economic Information Daily.
"As long as they're online, these online games and publications are fully subject to administration by the MOC," he said, according to the China Daily.
Li said the Communist Party propaganda department, which controls cultural life, had in March given the Culture Ministry control over online games, according to the Chinese-language International Finance News.
Li's unyielding comments suggested the bureaucratic war over Warcraft, a role-playing game in which subscribers complete quests, slay monsters and fight each other, may not end quickly.
Access in China to the game has not yet been affected for those who have already paid for a subscription.
Gamers at an Internet cafe in Beijing said they yearned for the power tussle to end. If access to the game were blocked, gamers said they would consider moving to servers outside China, shelling out the extra expense of a new subscription.
"The only thing I want to say is I'm grieved," said Chen, a man in his mid-twenties who only gave his surname to *******.
"Why does such a good game have so many troubles in China when it's running peacefully in other parts of the world?"

Atul Bagga, an analyst with ThinkEquity, said that if World of Warcraft were disrupted for two months in China, he would lower his NetEase Q4 revenue and earnings per share estimates by $50 million and $0.09.
Bagga said such a shutdown would cause him to adjust estimates of Activision Blizzard Q4 revenue and EPS estimates by $20-25 million and $0.01.
In October, GAPP banned many forms of foreign investment into the country's online games industry, expected to grow 30-50 percent this year to up to $4 billion. [ID:nSHA252963]
NetEase said on Monday that the GAPP halted and returned its application to operate the latest version of World of Warcraft game due to "gross violations" of regulations. [ID:nN02450107]
GAPP posted a statement on its Web site demanding that NetEase also suspend charging users to play the game, and disallow new account registrations, NetEase said.
The move against Warcraft put the recently relaunched popular title's future under a cloud in China, and weighed down NetEase and Activision Blizzard shares.
A spokesman at GAPP said he could not immediately answer questions about the case faxed by *******.
Bureaucratic feuding over the Internet can produce departures from China's usually secretive, unyielding style of government.
In late June, the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, which has also sought to assert control of Internet content, abruptly discarded a plan to force manufacturers to bundle Internet filtering software with personal computers sold in the country. [ID:nSP514751]
The "Green Dam" plan, which officials said was to stamp out Internet ****ography, was to start from July 1, but it was assailed by critics of censorship, industry groups and Washington officials as politically intrusive, technically ineffective and commercially unfair. [ID:nSP491468]
China's government was "in general very supportive of the game industry, providing tax breaks and such," said Wei, the analyst.
But in comments published on Wednesday, China's top police official said the Internet remained a worry.
"The Internet is growing at a breakneck pace, there are many weak links in social regulation, and protecting social stability faces unprecedented circumstances and challenges," Meng Jianzhu, the Minister for Public Security, was quoted as saying by the China Police Daily. (Additional reporting by Yu Le; Editing by Nick Macfie)
http://www.*******.com/article/companyNews/idUSSP53146320091104?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

Shuimo

11-04-2009, 10:24 AM

Flagrant human rights abuse by Chinese policing hooligans
**** crack-down in the capital city of Central China's Henan Province led to the exposure of photos featuring naked *** workers getting caught in panic under the violence paws of local policemen! (http://www.ccw.com.cn/xzx/htm2009/20091103_830299.shtml)

http://imgs.ccw.com.cn/resources/2009_11/2009_11_03/200911036341257215628713.jpg

TheMiddlePath

11-04-2009, 09:39 PM

Recent remarks of Lee Guangyao, former PM of Singapore, calling for the US to continue to play a leading role in Asian affairs in the coming decades so as to COUNTER-BALANCE a formidably rising China, have sparkled intensely hot controversies and debates in the Chinese media and acadme! (http://news.ifeng.com/world/special/liguangyaoyanlun/)p-)

Shuimo, China has never threaten Singapore. LKY statement is directed not at China but at another very large neigboring country that has in the past threaten Singapore many times.

Very clever of LKY not to name the very large neigboring country so as not create more tension.

That is my take on this.

Shuimo

11-05-2009, 10:32 AM

Shuimo, China has never threaten Singapore. LKY statement is directed not at China but at another very large neigboring country that has in the past threaten Singapore many times.
Yeah, China has never threatened Singaore or any other country!
You surely mean Indonisia?

Very clever of LKY not to name the very large neigboring country so as not create more tension.

That is my take on this.

But why should he single out China for the US to deal with in particular?

Shuimo

11-05-2009, 10:34 AM

China's state-owned energy firm buys U.S. off-shore leases

By: Mark Tapscott (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bios/26406784.html)
Editorial Page Editor
11/05/09 8:22 AM EST

Gas prices here in the U.S. are creeping back up towards the $3-per-gallon mark even as news breaks today that China's state-owned energy firm just closed a deal to buy interests in four development leases on the American Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) in the Gulf of Mexico.
The deal, which requires approval of the U.S. government, is between Norway's Statoil and China National Off-Shore Oil Corporation (CNOOC). This is the same CNOOC that would have bought Unocal four years ago for $18.5 billion but for pressure from Congress, according to The New York Times (http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/04/statoil-sells-us-oil-interest-to-chinese-company/), quoting an energy industry trade publication.
Because it must be approved by the U.S. government, the Statoil/CNOOC deal puts President Obama and Ken Salazar, his Secretary of the Department of the Interior, which controls OCS leasing, in a difficult position.
If the administration approves the deal, it will be more vulnerable to charges that the White House is being careless with U.S. national security issues in the energy sector, and that it is putting the interests of a foreign power before those of U.S. energy consumers.
If Obama and Salazar reject the deal, it will likely complicate relations with China, the emerging Asian superpower that defense experts predict will be able at will to challenge U.S. legitimate national security interests around the globe in the near future.
The deal also focuses renewed attention on Salazar's slow-walking of a new plan for approving energy exploration and development in the OCS, which includes approximately 1.7 billion acres, and, according to Interior, holds up to 86 billion barrels of recoverable oil and more than 400 trillion cubic feet of natural gas.
The administration is moving much too slowly to open more of the OCS to development for domestic U.S. uses, according to Jack Gerard, (http://www.api.org/Newsroom/jackgerard-gas-price.cfm) president of the American Petroleum Institute, who said recently:

“It’s been more than a year since the U.S. Congress and former President Bush lifted the moratoria on leasing new parcels in federal waters off the coasts of the Atlantic and Pacific, yet this administration has slow pedaled efforts to set up a framework to allow leasing on this acreage, even though the majority of Americans support greater development of our domestic resources. Instead, a troubling pattern of delay has emerged when it comes to developing the nation’s federal resources – whether they are offshore in federal waters or onshore.

“Americans are already suffering because of the prolonged economic recession, and the recent gasoline price rise—which is being compounded by short-sighted government policies—is only furthering their difficulties. We urge the administration and Congress to take actions to increase domestic oil and natural gas supplies, which would add new U.S. jobs, provide much-needed revenues to federal, state and local governments and help ensure adequate supplies are available to generate the gasoline and diesel our nation needs.”
The Statoil/CNOOC deal is the latest step in China's extremely aggressive program to develop energy resources wherever possible around the globe in order to feed its massive economic growth. Coal currently accounts for 70 percent of China's energy production, while oil is second at 20 percent, according to the Institute for Energy Research. (http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/10/28/china-the-looming-giant/)
Finding new sources of conventional and renewable energy is critical for China, as its Gross Domestic Product could exceed that of the U.S. within 15 years, according to IER.
The deal will also focus increased attention on Congress as it debates the Waxman-Markey and Boxer-Kerry cap-and-trade anti-global warming proposals that are designed to force the U.S. economy to convert from dependence upon carbon-based conventional fuels like coal, oil and natural gas to renewable alternative energy sources such as biomass, wind and solar.
Critics of the legislation contend the proposals will force conversion to the alternative energy sources before they are sufficiently developed to be able to supply U.S. energy needs, which are expected to double in a few years.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Chinas-state-owned-energy-firm-buys-US-off-shore-leases--69275242.html

Shuimo

11-05-2009, 11:15 AM

Obama plays China card, but who holds the ace?
Wed Nov 4, 2009 6:35pm IST
TENSIONS COOLING WITH TAIWAN
Taiwan is still the one issue that could trigger war between China, which claims sovereignty over the self-ruled island, and the United States, which is committed by U.S. law to provide weapons for Taiwan's defense.
But Obama's tenure has coincided with a cooling of tensions between Beijing and Taipei thanks to the 2008 election of Taiwan President Ma Ying-jeou, who has sought better ties with China. But potential friction over U.S. arms sales remains.
The Obama administration has angered some for appearing to play down human rights in the interest of gaining Chinese cooperation in combating the financial crisis.
Obama broke with presidential tradition and did not meet the Dalai Lama when the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader visited Washington last month. But U.S. officials reject the idea that Obama snubbed the Dalai Lama and tell critics to judge the policies by their results.
Other foreign policy disputes stem from China's scorching economic growth. China's need for energy and raw materials to fuel its growth has led it to deepen ties with countries which have troubled relations with the United States or face international condemnation for their human rights records or pursuit of banned weapons.
China's oil investments in Sudan drew calls for a boycott of the 2008 Beijing Olympics by critics who said China abetted the perpetrators of atrocities in Darfur. China's energy trade with Iran is seen as helping Tehran withstand Western economic sanctions over its nuclear ambitions.
Drew Thompson, director of China Studies at the Nixon Center in Washington, said the United States has started to take into account how Chinese "resource needs and self-perceived insecurities" influence its foreign policy.
"The more we address those insecurities and resolve them as much as possible, the more we will get from China in terms of shaping the behavior of other nations, such as Iran, Sudan and Zimbabwe," he said.

NO LONGER CHURCHILL AND ROOSEVELT WITH A BRANDY
The new dynamic in Sino-America relations was on clear display last April, when Obama brokered a dispute between Hu and French President Nicolas Sarkozy at the G20 summit in London in April.
The G20 was under enormous pressure to show unity amid fears financial markets could face another wave of turmoil after the chaos of late 2008 and early 2009.
But at a luncheon of beef and asparagus, Hu and Sarkozy were deadlocked over the French president's proposal to crack down on international tax havens. China was concerned about the potential impact on the Hong Kong and Macau banking sectors.
Ratcheting up the pressure was a threat Sarkozy had issued on the eve of the summit to walk out unless the G20 talks yielded a firm commitment on financial regulatory reforms.
Obama pulled each leader aside and urged each to give ground, even though his own view on tax havens was closer to Sarkozy's.
At a news conference later, he spoke approvingly of the rise of countries like China and said it was a good thing decisions were no longer made by "Roosevelt and Churchill sitting in a room with a brandy."
"That's an easier negotiation but that's not the world we live in, and it shouldn't be," Obama said. (Additional reporting by Glenn Somerville in Washington, Chris Buckley in Beijing and Anna Willard in Paris, editing by Jim Impoco and Claudia Parsons)

http://in.*******.com/article/marketsNewsUS/idINN0346855220091104?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

TheMiddlePath

11-05-2009, 11:59 PM

Yeah, China has never threatened Singaore or any other country!
You surely mean Indonisia??

Lets not blow LKY's cover.

But why should he single out China for the US to deal with in particular?

Singapore needs US presence....to ensure its survival. If Singapore's sovereignty is ever threaten by a very large neigboring country, you tell me who has the will and the means to help ?
And what better country to single out but China. It probably music to the US ears.

Beside if LKY had single out the very large neigboring country, all hell would have broken loose.

hskywalker

11-06-2009, 08:42 AM

USA at it again...:roll:

HONG KONG (Marke****ch) -- Washington will reportedly impose punitive duties of as much as 99% on imports of oil and gas pipe from China, following allegations by U.S. Steel Corp. and other producers that the products are being dumped at unfair prices.
Imports of the Chinese pipe totaled $2.6 billion in 2008, more than tripling in value from 2006, according to a report by Dow Jones Newswires which cited the U.S. Commerce Department.
The flare-up comes as President Barack Obama is due to visit China later this month.
A countervailing duty of 36.5% will be applied to 37 companies, which are believed to rank among the largest of China's exporters, the report said. Apart from these, duties of 99% will be applied to most other Chinese producers and exporters, several reports said.
Jiangsu Changbao Steel Tube Co. will be exempted from the duties, while Tianjin Pipe International Economic and Trading Corp. received a 36.5% duty, according to the Dow Jones report.
The new penalties are on top of duties of 10.7% and 30.7% announced by the Commerce Department in September, according to a report by China's state-run Xinhua news agency.
Thursday's ruling comes after the United Steelworkers union and six steel companies led by U.S. Steel /quotes/comstock/13*!x/quotes/nls/x (X (http://www.marke****ch.com/investing/stock/X) 36.81, +1.26, +3.54%) petitioned for a 98.4% anti-dumping duty to offset "unfairly low prices," the Steelworkers said in a statement.
"China's government and exporters are being told we are fed up with their cheating on our fair-trade laws, and penalties for these transgressions are long overdue," reports cited Steelworkers President Leo Gerard as saying.
The preliminary decision, announced by email, will be reviewed at a U.S. International Commission public hearing on the case, to be held Dec. 1, the Dow Jones report said.
The Commerce Department will make a determination on some issues in the case, however, later this month, and another determination on the issue of dumping in February.
In late October a panel set up by the U.S. International Trade Commission to look into the case voted unanimously to allow the Commerce Department to investigate the dumping charges, saying there as a reasonable indication the imports could harm U.S. producers, according to a Steelworkers' statement.
The investigation covered industrial piping systems to convey water, steam, oil products, natural gas and other liquids and gases, according to the Steelworkers' statement.

http://www.marke****ch.com/story/us-imposes-duties-on-chinese-oil-pipe-imports-2009-11-06

Shuimo

11-06-2009, 12:45 PM

China a tougher sell for West on trouble-spots
By Chris Buckley - Analysis
BEIJING (*******) - President Barack Obama (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/barackobama) will be seeking China's backing over North Korea and Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran) when he visits this month, but Beijing appears increasingly assertive about what Western pressure it accepts or rejects.
Obama's summit in China in mid-November is sure to cover trouble-spots where Washington hopes Beijing will throw more of its growing political and economic weight behind efforts to defuse disputed nuclear programs or diplomatic standoffs.
China has bowed to such demands before, reluctantly backing limited U.N. sanctions against Pyongyang and Tehran, while resisting tougher steps it saw as unwarranted or a threat to bilateral ties.
Such diplomatic haggling, with China accepting some Western demands while protecting its bilateral ties with targeted states, will not change. But recent signs suggest China may now be more willing to stand its ground.
China's continued economic growth and rise in diplomatic stature during the global financial crisis, and uncertainty over policy in Washington, had emboldened Beijing, said Andrew Small, a fellow at the German Marshall Fund in Brussels, who has studied China's ties with the "rogue states."
"Several years ago, China's position was much more externally driven. Foreign pressure and U.S. lobbying was much more important," Small said of those ties.
"The U.S. is still a big factor, but they're finding they can be more assertive without putting relations with the U.S. in jeopardy."
Obama was likely to find bargaining for China's support over nuclear programs in North Korea and Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran) more drawn out, said Shi Yinhong, a professor of international security at Renmin University in Beijing.
"China will become more self-confident about handling pressure from the U.S.," said Shi. "It will still cooperate, but there's less a sense that concessions on these issues define the bilateral relationship."
SHORING UP TIES
Beijing charted more of its own course most clearly with its communist neighbor, North Korea.
Last month, Premier Wen Jiabao courted its secretive top leader, Kim Jong-il, with a visit and President Hu Jintao hosted one of Kim's confidantes and invited Kim to visit.
China remains worried about North Korea's atomic weapons and wants to revive nuclear disarmament talks, said John Park, an expert on ties between the two countries at the United States Institute of Peace in Washington D.C.
But recently China has focused more on healing bruised ties with the North, driven by a belief that Pyongyang appears set on keeping its small nuclear arsenal for a long time, and that U.S. policy remains uncertain.
"I think the Chinese did an assessment and realized that the U.S. approach is ineffective, so they had to recalibrate policy toward North Korea," Park said.
The resulting "massive injection of political capital from China" may embolden North Korea, which held its second ever nuclear test in May, he added.
Obama may also appeal to Beijing for stronger backing to international efforts aimed at Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran)'s nuclear ambitions.
China has backed U.N. resolutions pressing Tehran to cooperate with international demands it open its nuclear activities to U.N. inspectors.
But Obama may find Beijing less willing to give ground, even if Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran) rejects a proposal that would send its enriched uranium abroad for processing into nuclear fuel, reducing worries that Tehran could use the material for nuclear weapons activities.
Tehran says its nuclear facilities are for peaceful ends.
In a sign China remains intent on preserving energy and trade ties with Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran), Premier Wen Jiabao last month hosted the First Vice President of Iran, Mohammad Reza Rahimi, telling him that bilateral cooperation was a priority.
Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran)ian oil made up nearly 12 percent of China's crude imports last year.
China has increasingly come to believe Western-backed sanctions have made drawing Tehran into effective negotiations harder, said Jin Liangxiang, a researcher at the Shanghai Institute for International Studies who studies the Middle East.
"On Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran), the Chinese simply can hide behind the Russians who have made it clear that they won't support tougher sanctions," Bonnie Glaser, an expert on China at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote in an email response to questions.
Even if Russia swings behind any new sanctions, China would go along only if it could insulate its stake in Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran), said Small.
"The bottom line is that in any one of these cases, China has never completely dropped anyone," he said of Iran (http://www.*******.com/news/globalcoverage/iran), North Korea and other states facing Western pressure.
"Economic issues now dominate relations with Washington, so China feels a bit more leeway on the security and foreign policy issues."

http://www.*******.com/article/GCA-BarackObama/idUSTRE5A50RD20091106

Shuimo

11-06-2009, 01:14 PM

Beyond India vs. China: The Dalai Lama's Agenda
By Ishaan Tharoor (javascript:void(0)) Thursday, Nov. 05, 2009

In early April 1959, with some 50,000 Chinese soldiers scouring the mountains in search of him, the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet into northeastern India. Beijing blamed him for fomenting an uprising among Tibetans, which the People's Liberation Army was then quashing. While foreign spies and correspondents filled up sleepy hill stations on the Indian side, the Dalai Lama took refuge in an old monastery, guarded by a detachment of Indian solders and a sect of 600 shaven-headed Buddhist monks. His brief sojourn at the 400-year-old monastery in the town of Tawang would be the first stop in a life of exile in India. This weekend, the Dalai Lama returns to Tawang — and Beijing is no less irked by his presence there now than it was six decades ago.

China claims the region where Tawang sits and the area surrounding it as a southern extension of Tibet, which Beijing rules; India has long maintained that the land, which comprises its northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh, is an inalienable part of its territory. Tensions over the border dispute have flared recently, raising the specter of a budding rivalry between the two Asian giants who fought a brief, wintry war in 1962. Reports of troop buildups and border incursions have increased. A visit to the state by Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in mid-October to campaign in local elections was cited by Beijing as an act of provocation.

Now the Dalai Lama's trip, which his camp insists is simply to deliver teachings to his faithful, is further stoking Chinese ire. On Nov. 3, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman blasted the Tibetan leader-in-exile for his "separatist" activities. "The Dalai Lama often lies and often engages in acts to sabotage China's relations with other countries," said Ma Zhaoxu. New Delhi, sensing trouble, has barred foreign journalists from covering the event.

Ever since he fled the Tibetan capital of Lhasa, the Dalai Lama has lived as a guest on Indian soil, free to do as he pleases provided he refrains from directly antagonizing China. This is not the first time he has journeyed to Tawang from his seat in the north Indian town of Dharamsala. But in the wake of riots in Lhasa last year and amid the present frostiness over the Sino-Indian border, the visit has assumed a deeper political dimension.
The monastery at Tawang is one of the largest and oldest of the dominant Tibetan Gelupga sect and is near the home of Tsangyang Gyatso, the sixth Dalai Lama, born in 1683 — a leader particularly beloved by the Tibetans. As the present Dalai Lama (the 14th) ages, rumors grow that his successor may be tapped from this historic cradle of Tibetan Buddhism in a bid to preempt Beijing, which is almost certain to select its own Dalai Lama once the current one passes.
In Chinese eyes, the prospect of the Dalai Lama ginning up emotions and support in Tawang poses a challenge to its vision of dominion over all of Tibet. The boundary separating Arunachal Pradesh from Tibet — dubbed the McMahon Line — was drawn up by the colonial British and officials from Lhasa in 1914, an act of map-making that China to this day refuses to recognize. According to Beijing, Tawang and its surroundings were under the suzerainty of the Qing dynasty after its armies extended China's frontiers to Tibet and Central Asia in the 18th and 19th centuries. If Tibet is Chinese soil — something that New Delhi has officially recognized — then, the argument goes, Tawang and its monastery ought to be as well.

But the facts on the ground, experts say, do not fully support Beijing's claim. "China is trying to impose this idea of a coherent nation-state," says Gray Tuttle, professor of Tibetan studies at Columbia University in New York. "But it is basing its claim on a premodern cultural world where there was nothing like a modern state." Not only was Chinese control over Tibet thin until the 1950s, but Tibetan rule over Tawang was nominal as well. Beyond the appointment of certain abbots in monasteries and the occasional payment of taxes to Lhasa, the people living there "did not see themselves as part of a broader empire, let alone a Chinese one," says Dibyesh Anand, an authority on the region and a professor of international relations at Westminster University in London.
Moreover, the ethnic group that inhabits this remote, mountainous part of the world, know as the Monpa, has always stood somewhat apart from the Tibetans of the plateau, despite sharing their religious and cultural outlook. In the days when political power was concentrated in Lhasa, Tibetans would look down upon the Monpa almost as if they were a tribe of southern barbarians. But after the Chinese invasion of Tibet in 1950, the group on the margins found itself at the center of a hot spot, faced with the task of aiding compatriots who were fleeing the brutal Chinese crackdown in 1959. As a result, the Monpa in India aren't particularly keen to swap nationalities. "They all fear China for what it did during the Tibetan uprising," says Anand.
Still, as New Delhi asserts its sovereignty over Arunachal Pradesh, many locals complain of poor governance. Like other parts of India's periphery, development has been woeful: roads in the rugged terrain are poor and in many places nonexistent, the school system is dysfunctional, and some state officials are corrupt. The Indian military often monopolizes the region's functioning infrastructure for its own deployment and strategic ends, leaving the Monpa again sandwiched on the edge of latter-day empires.
The Dalai Lama's visit, says Anand, should be seen not as a gesture of defiance toward China nor a validation of democratic India but as an act of solidarity with a community that looks to him for guidance. For years he has pushed for dialogue with China and quietly sought autonomy for Tibet, but this purported "middle path" of peaceful advocacy has made little progress and has frustrated many younger Tibetans who are living in exile from their homeland. Now, suggest observers, the Dalai Lama may be thinking more of shoring up the Tibetan diaspora as it looks toward an uncertain future. "With him getting older, it makes sense to try to establish a long-term support network for Tibetans in exile," says Tuttle.
Meanwhile, border tensions around the monastery where the Dalai Lama found asylum 60 years ago continue to simmer. As neighbors and growing world powers, India and China are bound to have their differences, but, say analysts, it is in both countries' interests to move away from the icy, uncompromising positions where they are now entrenched. The possibilities for trade between India's northeast and China's southwest have barely been explored. "Indians and Chinese need to be more confident in their history," says Anand. "This is history, as you see in Tawang, which was more complicated, fluid and relaxed."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1934948,00.html