View Full Version : Why did Hitler keep Hermann Göring as head of Luftwaffe?
Breerman
10-02-2009, 04:10 PM
My impression of Göring is that he was as incompetent as he was fat and decadent. Why did Hitler keep him as head of Luftwaffe even after failure upon failure?
http://i34.tinypic.com/25fovpi.jpg
Connaught Ranger
10-02-2009, 04:24 PM
Old friends from the early days of the N.S.D.A.P.
Blue387
10-02-2009, 04:33 PM
Who would Hitler replace Goering with?
el borracho
10-02-2009, 04:39 PM
As in most regimes, loyalty is rewarded over competence. The Luftwaffe was blessed with a high number of extremely experienced and skilled generals and colonels at the strategic level which were enough to keep day to day operations flowing smoothly.
Akinnen
10-02-2009, 04:39 PM
He was little strange, but on other hand he was hero of WW1:
With twenty-two confirmed kills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_I_flying_aces) as a fighter pilot, he was a veteran of the First World War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) and recipient of the coveted Pour le Mérite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pour_le_M%C3%A9rite) ("The Blue Max"). He was the last commander of "The Red Baron", Manfred von Richthofen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen)'s Jagdgeschwader 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_1_%28World_War_I%29) air squadron.
If you compare him to Himmler, he was "hero" (but big fail as commander of Luftwaffe on Dunkirk, Stalingrad etc...), and Himmler raised chickens on his little farm.
Not even sure Hitler could have replaced Göring on a whim
This man had accumulated so much power and so many offices, he was much of a power himself.
He was not only Chief of the Luftwaffe, but also dabbed into economics (prewar nazi Germany had basically 3 ministers of economy, all working against each other), environmentalism (one could consider Göring the father of the german nature protection laws) and Police (Göring kept the SS out of the Berlin Police as long as he could)
Also Hitler relied on Göring, and Göring as the most "moderate" Nazi had good connections with the conservatives in Germany.
I'm not even sure Göring actually believed in the full extent of the Nazi ideology, for example he often confided in people of jewish ancestry, as long as they were loyal to him.
Also, he was extremely popular with the common man on the street.
Also, I wouldn't rate him incompetent. He always had a weak spot for old friends and certainly was corrupt, but he was a smart man and shrewd politician, and he certainly had organizing skills.
The incompetence came later in the war as a result of massive morphine abuse.
Göring actually left the day to day running of the Luftwaffe to more competent hands, the picture of an incompetent buffoon running everything has been distorted a bit by Galland and others who basically blamed all that went wrong on Göring.
Udet messed up procurement all by himself, and Milch basically ran the whole logistics side.
Göring only assumed operational command of the defense of the Reich when even he couldn't mess up things more than they allready were. And even there he had much more competent advisors like Hajor Herrmann or Günther Lützow.
Euroamerican
10-02-2009, 04:44 PM
And he was a spiffy dresser. Good for PR! Of course, in an evil sort of way!
Akinnen
10-02-2009, 04:50 PM
Erich Hartmann ftw :)
and this came from Goering's mouth: “Whenever I hear the word culture, I reach for my Browning!”
I just love his comments at trials in Nurnberg :)
LineDoggie
10-02-2009, 04:58 PM
I think the LW failing was it was a Tactical Air Force in a Strategic Air War. Goering became inamorated with his own propaganda and didnt see the LW was being passed technically, tactically, strategically by the RAF/USAAF in its ability to project power.
Goering was publically the face of the LW just as Patton was of US Armor. Patton suffered the same failing of not really having a technical grasp of then US/German Armor itself as opposed to the Tactics of employment. Remember he didnt want the M4A3(76)W saying the 75mm was adequate before Normandy. I think it was Bruce Clarke who said "Patton knew as little about tanks as anybody I ever knew. ... "
Hitler valued Loyalty above all. The Bodyguard who threw himself onto Hitler and recieved numerous bullet wounds during the Putsch was made a SS-Brigadefuhrer in Apr. 20, 1943.
In 1939 Hitler designated him publicly as his successor,thus it would be difficult to fire him as chief of the Luftwaffe ;Hitler was burdened with Goring
Akinnen
10-02-2009, 05:18 PM
In 1939 Hitler designated him publicly as his successor,thus it would be difficult to fire him as chief of the Luftwaffe ;Hitler was burdened with Goring
Well he did it in 1945.
nemowork
10-02-2009, 08:56 PM
Goerring has succeeded in his personal quest for publicity and glory, but while he might have been Hitlers nominated successor in 1939 by 45 his many failures had got him shut out of the top rank of Nazi loyalists.
Why else would Doenitz have been nominated as successor Fuhrer and not Goerring?
As an aside though don't ever assume Goerring was stupid or incompetent, this is the guy who created the Gestapo and ran the Reich economic base, he was destroyed by his own egomania, dependence on painkillers and a strange need for a Father figure in Hitlers dominance but dont ever assume he was stupid. Watch the Nuremberg trial footage where he was detoxed and free to express himself and watch how he walked over a good proportion of the allied lawyers with ease.
On his top form Goerring was a really dangerous and competent player, ask Ernst Roehm who used to be Hitlers war buddy, political sponsor and head of a nationally powerful peoples militia but got on the bad side of Goerring and Himmler and see where it got him.
tluassa
10-02-2009, 10:12 PM
Herr Meier ...
Difool
10-03-2009, 02:42 AM
Goering has been very popular among the people. I guess the German leadership needed a "good guy".
Chauncey
10-03-2009, 12:21 PM
Herr Meier ...
I've always wondered about that quote. Goering said, "'If one enemy bomb falls on Berlin, you can call me Meier" - a question to our German friends, is there a special German meaning to the word, "meier" or is just a name?
Is Goering just saying, "if Berlin is bombed, I'm not who I say I am..."? Or is there a deeper meaning to it?
..and wasn't he a cocaine addict who believed he was a Norse God?
Cheers guys
Difool
10-03-2009, 12:29 PM
I've always wondered about that quote. Goering said, "'If one enemy bomb falls on Berlin, you can call me Meier" - a question to our German friends, is there a special German meaning to the word, "meier" or is just a name?
Is Goering just saying, "if Berlin is bombed, I'm not who I say I am..."? Or is there a deeper meaning to it?
..and wasn't he a cocaine addict who believed he was a Norse God?
Cheers guys
Meier is just the most common German name. He just wanted to ensure the people that bombing won't happen. Like: if I loose my bet you may call me Meier.
Meier is just the most common German name. I just wanted to say that bombing won't happen. Like: if I loose my bet you may call me Meier.
There were also a lot of Jews called Meyer ?
Difool
10-03-2009, 12:35 PM
There were also a lot of Jews called Meyer ?
Maybe there are some Jews with the surname Meier. But it's not a typical German-Jewish name.
BTW there are different versions of that name: Meier, Maier, Mair, Mayer, Meyer.
Redbeard
10-03-2009, 12:45 PM
Anyone ever stopped and thought about how Goering looks alot like Josip Broz Tito? It's though as they're brothers.
T.S.C.Plage
10-03-2009, 01:12 PM
Besides some already mentioned points Göring was a slave to Hitler and people like that don't get dropped so easily if they admire the leader and say yes to everything he says.
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8048/gatowgoeringuniform01.jpg
Britishhawk
10-03-2009, 01:17 PM
He made alot of unrealistic promises, he convinced Hitler of the Luftwaffe's 'superiority'. Hitler believed his BS despite continued failures.
quinsen
10-03-2009, 01:41 PM
picture
Some medals are missing on the christmas tree. :roll:
He was also the President of the Reichstag, Reichsjadgminister, former Reichsminister and Reichskommisar for Prussia and General of the Luftwaffe. The later rank of the Reichsmarschall was especially created for him. The only way - I guess - to remove him would by force and to fake an accident, like it was usual in these times.
Akinnen
10-03-2009, 02:27 PM
Goerring has succeeded in his personal quest for publicity and glory, but while he might have been Hitlers nominated successor in 1939 by 45 his many failures had got him shut out of the top rank of Nazi loyalists.
Why else would Doenitz have been nominated as successor Fuhrer and not Goerring?
Hitler nominated him in 1941 for his successor, if I can recall... And he went down because of this telegram in last days of 3rd Reich, and presence of Bormann who hated Goering
My Fuhrer: General Koller today gave me a briefing on the basis of communications given him by Colonel General Jodl and General Christian, according to which you had referred certain decisions to me and emphasized that I, in case negotiations would become necessary, would be in an easier position than you in Berlin. These views were so surprising and serious to me that I felt obligated to assume, in case by 2200 o’clock no answer is forthcoming, that you have lost your freedom of action. I shall then view the conditions of your decree as fulfilled and take action for the wellbeing of Nation and Fatherland. You know what I feel for you in these most difficult hours of my life and I cannot express this in words. God protect you and allow you despite everything to come here as soon as possible. Your faithful Herman Goring.
Adolf went ballistic after this, and Himmler did same thing (treason?), only difference he didn't send telegram or any information about that to Hitler's bunker.
Blue387
10-03-2009, 07:34 PM
Adolf went ballistic after this, and Himmler did same thing (treason?), only difference he didn't send telegram or any information about that to Hitler's bunker.
If I recall, Himmler offered a separate peace with the Swedes as intermediaries.
On another note, how heavy was Goebbels, anyway? He seemed to be thin as a rail but turned into a blimp as he aged.
Difool
10-05-2009, 02:21 AM
He was also the President of the Reichstag, Reichsjadgminister, former Reichsminister and Reichskommisar for Prussia and General of the Luftwaffe. The later rank of the Reichsmarschall was especially created for him. The only way - I guess - to remove him would by force and to fake an accident, like it was usual in these times.
You forgot the Reichsforstmeister.
He was also executive of the 4 year plan (bevollmächtigter the Vierjahresplanes).
Crassus
10-05-2009, 04:14 AM
Who would Hitler replace Goering with?
Erhard Milch, also a WWI fighter pilot, former head of Lufthansa, totally different calibre person than Göring.
Hell, he was a part jew but he was so efficient in his job that Hitler "aryanized" him.
Milch wasn't a WW1 fighter pilot, he was a nonflying officer and occasional observer in a recon unit.
The "aryanization" (not an official process, just glossing over rumours) was done by Göring, who said "wer hier Jude ist, bestimme ich!" (I decide who's a jew!).
Milch was simply too valuable an organizer and builder, but he was definitely not a military commander, he always ran the Luftwaffe like his airline.
I think his only operational command was the Stalingrad airlift, and you know how well that went. Ok, this tenure was cut short by a car accident anyway.
That was one of the problems of the Luftwaffe, that no experienced leadership generation was there.
Or at least not a very competent one. While there were enough former WW1 aviators holding high rank in Göring's Luftwaffe, none of them had any military experience in the interwar years, as there was no air force for them to serve in.
Germany had no people like Dowding, Trenchard or Harris who were career air staff officers for 20 years before the war.
Actually the most efficient Luftwaffe prewar staff officers were army officers seconded to the Luftwaffe, like Wever, who had never flown before he was posted there...
Milch was one of the few bright spots in a rogue's gallery with incompetents like Sperrle, Weise, Bodenschatz, Lörzer, Schmidt and all the other Göring cronies.
One must admit that the WW1 german air service didn't exactly form the right basis anyway, as it was mostly composed of misfits and outcasts who couldn't make a career in the usual army anyway. Good pilots and enthusiastic flyers, and maybe tactically more creative than "real" soldiers but not the kind of people you can expect to excel in a peacetime military or a staff assignment.
Incidentally, the choice who was to be sent to the Luftwaffe was Wever or von Manstein. I wonder how the Luftwaffe might have turned out with Manstein as chief of staff, or if Wever had survived.
People regard Wever mostly as a heavy bomber proponent, but in reality he was just an untterly competent prussian officer, the absolute counterpart to Görings gang of happy amateurs.
The remedy for this was early promotion of the first clandestinely trained generation of flying officers, like Wolfgang Falck or Günther Lützow, but those only rose to general rank after 1939.
commanding
10-05-2009, 05:12 AM
Anyone ever stopped and thought about how Goering looks alot like Josip Broz Tito? It's though as they're brothers.
wow, I never thought of that, but the two did look a lot alike. Weird.
commanding
10-05-2009, 05:14 AM
If I recall, Himmler offered a separate peace with the Swedes as intermediaries.
On another note, how heavy was Goebbels, anyway? He seemed to be thin as a rail but turned into a blimp as he aged.
Goebbels got heavy? I don't recall seeing any photos of him as being overweight, seems he was always thin looking in photos I have seen.
PsihoKeke
10-05-2009, 06:28 AM
Anyone ever stopped and thought about how Goering looks alot like Josip Broz Tito? It's though as they're brothers.
I recall reading book of aviation history and was at Battle of Britain section, when my grandmother came around, took a look at my book and asked me what Tito is doing in the middle of all those germans. It was picture of Göring visiting his pilots before deciding to switch to terror bombings.
Göring is also ''fondly'' remembered in parts of germany for introducing racoons.
commanding
10-05-2009, 06:39 AM
I recall reading book of aviation history and was at Battle of Britain section, when my grandmother came around, took a look at my book and asked me what Tito is doing in the middle of all those germans. It was picture of Göring visiting his pilots before deciding to switch to terror bombings.
Göring is also ''fondly'' remembered in parts of germany for introducing racoons.
Göring was an avid hunter and I truly believe he really enjoyed hunting, and art. He was a real outdoorsman I think (despite his girth), and if he were alive and not a criminal today, he would likely have a television show on the Outdoor channel along with Uncle Ted Nugent etc.
PS... Goring's fascination with archery, knives etc also are similar to many outdoorsmen today. I also am interested in archery, though not very good.
Göring didn't release Racoons into the wild.
He introduced them for fur farms, and in the confusion of the last days of the war, they escaped.
Especially around the city of Kassel in northern Hesse, suburban dwellers have to handle nocturnal assaults of nazi racoons...
rofl
It is actually a legal problem to hunt for them, as they are not mentioned in the Deutsches Jagdgesetz, which regulates the hunting of different species in Germany.
It was introduced by Göring, of course.
It actually features creatures extict or not common within modern german borders like the Elk (Silesia and east Prussia) or the european bison/wisent (a few east Prussia) and the wolf, which is coming back to Germany in recent years.
So legally there are no racoons in Germany.. :)
Indiana Jones
10-05-2009, 07:43 AM
[...]
It is actually a legal problem to hunt for them[...]
Excuse the nitpicking, but not exactly, no.
commanding
10-05-2009, 07:55 AM
Excuse the nitpicking, but not exactly, no.
interesting problem having raccoons in Germany. Be glad you don't have south american "fire ants" introduced, as we do in Texas and much of the south of the USA. They spread like crazy, and will kill off many native species, not to mention they will sting the holy cr*p out of you. I have had as many as 50 or 60 stings on my legs at one time from just one encounter stepping on a fire ant bed. They kill birds, kill other native large harvester ants (thereby eliminating the Texas horned lizards), and even baby deer (fawns).
Goring wasn't the first guy to introduce exotics, it is still going on here and likely it is everywhere.
Hmm, just looked it up, § 2 Bundesjagdgesetz mentions Wisents and Seals (who hunts them?), but no Racoons.
The Racoon was recently added via a hessian administrative order (Landesverordnung zum Bundesjagdgesetz), but that is (extreme nitpick) NOT a law as such.
However, Racoons can be hunted now, much to the relief of the inhabitants of "Racoon city" Kassel
:)
But the german hunting law can have distastrous/hillarious consequences:
Last year a pack of boars roamed around in Rüsselsheim and demolished gardens, damaged cars, looted vegetable shops.
The police was called, but they were legally not allowed to hunt, but they had no proper hunting weapons. Hunters were called in who refused to shoot the boars because they were not allowed to hunt in cities.
They could not give their hunting rifles to the police as hunting rifles are not officially sanctioned police firearms!
The upshot was that the police used MP5s and about 100 rounds and succeeded not only in killing the boars but putting a lot of bullet holes in cars as well.
:cantbeli:
Indiana Jones
10-05-2009, 08:29 AM
Hmm, just looked it up, § 2 Bundesjagdgesetz mentions Wisents and Seals (who hunts them?), but no Racoons.
The Racoon was recently added via a hessian administrative order (Landesverordnung zum Bundesjagdgesetz), but that is (extreme nitpick) NOT a law as such.
However, Racoons can be hunted now, much to the relief of the inhabitants of "Racoon city" Kassel
:)
But the german hunting law can have distastrous/hillarious consequences:
Last year a pack of boars roamed around in Rüsselsheim and demolished gardens, damaged cars, looted vegetable shops.
The police was called, but they were legally not allowed to hunt, but they had no proper hunting weapons. Hunters were called in who refused to shoot the boars because they were not allowed to hunt in cities.
They could not give their hunting rifles to the police as hunting rifles are not officially sanctioned police firearms!
The upshot was that the police used MP5s and about 100 rounds and succeeded not only in killing the boars but putting a lot of bullet holes in cars as well.
:cantbeli:
I reckoned you'd look up the Gesetzeskommentar. ;)
Ad 1:
Seals are not hunted anymore since 1974.
Ad 2:
Even more extreme nitpick: A critter does not have to be subject to the Bundesjagdgesetz to be hunted.
Racoons are de facto hunted in Hessia since decades.
As for the Rüsselsheim incident: The local hunters did not want to shoot in order not expose themselves to the attention of Paragraphennazis and Winkeladvokaten such as you... ;) In addition, firing a high-powered rifle in an concrete environment is a recipe for disaster, especially with softpoints-completely unpredictable ricochets, etc.
The main reason why the entire affair got out of hand was the fact that some of the policemen panicked, and seeing as they are poorly trained to begin with, started to spray all over the place.
Cheers,
IJ.
kato2k6
10-05-2009, 08:39 AM
The police was called, but they were legally not allowed to hunt, but they had no proper hunting weapons. Hunters were called in who refused to shoot the boars because they were not allowed to hunt in cities.
Meh, it was a bit more complicated. They tried to call in local hunters but didn't find any; the only guy they found wasn't local, a bit uninformed and told the police he wasn't allowed to shoot there.
The police then pulled that line (that hunters weren't allowed to hunt in cities) to defend its actions, which the Hunting Association rebuffed citing the possibility of hunters to use their weapons under police monitoring in cities if people were in danger, and that this is actually a pretty common thing.
It's actually rather common for police especially in larger towns and cities to try taking on boars themselves.
One of the boars escaped the massacre btw, by rushing an officer (who tried to defend herself with her pistol but missed) and running into a nearby park. The other six tried to use the distraction to escape as well, running downtown. Police decided to go after the bigger group.
I had hunting law in 1st state exam last year. Traumatized me for life, thanks a lot Hermann....
I only heard the Rüsselsheim incident from hearsay at Landgericht Darmstadt.
Thanks for the details.
Came up because we've had a much worse Rüsselsheim incident (the fatal shootout between kurdish families last year) on trial.
Holycrusader
10-05-2009, 08:41 AM
Göring was an avid hunter and I truly believe he really enjoyed hunting, and art. He was a real outdoorsman I think (despite his girth), and if he were alive and not a criminal today, he would likely have a television show on the Outdoor channel along with Uncle Ted Nugent etc.
PS... Goring's fascination with archery, knives etc also are similar to many outdoorsmen today. I also am interested in archery, though not very good.
Archery deserve its own topic... Do Archery related thread exist already?
Difool
10-05-2009, 10:46 AM
Bundesjagdgesetz is just a Rahmengesetz.
Each individual German state can define a hunting season for racoons.
As far as I know you are allowed to hunt them everywhere in Germany.
Same with the Enok. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Dog
Göring did not only introduce the Reichsjagdgesetz but also nature reserve areas.
kraut783
10-05-2009, 11:40 AM
"..and wasn't he a cocaine addict who believed he was a Norse God?"
He was addicited to morphine due to the medical treatment he received when he was shot in the stomach during one of the early beer hall battles, before the nazi party came into power. Then later used heroine.
Himmler was the one who had a castle for the SS and trying to relate them / him to past King's, and Norsemen and of couse the mystic world.
Just my two cents.
Difool
10-05-2009, 11:55 AM
Those rumors about his addiction seem to be true. I heard the story that he ordered his servants to wake him up for night dinners. That might explain his size. As far as I know he hated Himmlers mystery/mythology stuff.
Pretty much everybody hated Himmler's mythology stuff, even Hitler himself ridiculed it occasionally.
And Göring was most likely the least mythologically inclined of the bunch.
He liked to live like a baroque king, not like the asketic head of a knight's order.
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