Russia must adapt to shrinking population

[Herman the II]

UN: Russia must adapt to shrinking population

MOSCOW — Russia's population has fallen by 6.6 million since 1993, despite the influx of millions of immigrants, a United Nations report said Monday, and by 2025 the country could lose a further 11 million people.

The result could be labor shortages, an aging population and slower economic growth, the U.N. said.

Recent Kremlin efforts to reward women for having more babies have caused a surge in the birth rate, the report said, but won't make much difference in the long term.

It urged Russia to reduce its high mortality rate — similar to that in parts of sub-Saharan Africa — through reform of its public health system and by encouraging lifestyle changes — especially a reduction in alcohol consumption.

The United Nations Development Program report, titled "Russia Facing Demographic Challenges," predicted that Russia will be forced to adapt to a smaller population and work force.

"Efforts to resist the unfavorable trends must be combined with efforts to adapt to what cannot be resisted," the report says.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j11XO83g3FRNnnH12pC88ve7TbBAD9B4M2R00


I knew that Vodka isn't that healthy but a mortality rate similar to sub-Saharan Africa? :| Seriously....

So Russia has done a lot and achieved a remarkable surge in the birth rates however its seems in vain if lots of people are drinking like there is no tomorrow. What can be done against this massive alcohol problem?

[Sashko]

Wasn't there an article posted here on positive population growth not even a week ago? :|

[Lov3ll]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Population_of_Russia.PNG


in August 2009 was marked by natural population growth of 1 thousand people.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=166066

[jokuvaan]

I dont know why shrinking population is considered to be so negative problem. Less there are people, less there is pollution and waste, leaving better life chances for generations to come.


(btw. this picture was related in Helsingin Sanomat story about Russian population problem) http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135249812871.jpeg

[FLIPO]

Wasn't there an article posted here on positive population growth not even a week ago? :|

exactly. + 1000 russians :-)) last month.

[Empulse]

I dont know why shrinking population is considered to be so negative problem. Less there are people, less there is pollution and waste, leaving better life chances for generations to come.

Because there are many Chinese who would eagerly take over Siberia. This has already started to happen and I'm not quite sure whether Russia is happy with it.


exactly. + 1000 russians :-)) last month.

Was already waiting for the Russia strong crew to jump in ;) If you don't mind, I will not take that number serious. There are lies, damn lies and statistics. After this decade long downwards trend, it's hard to believe this has suddenly changed without concrete proof of changes.

[Frutzel]

Because there are many Chinese who would eagerly take over Siberia. This has already started to happen and I'm not quite sure whether Russia is happy with it.



Please not that "Chinese are going to take Siberia!!111" again :roll:

Seriously what could they do? Give me a reasonable answer on that please.

[Holycrusader]

Stupid thread with lots of stereotpical thinking in it....

[Empulse]

Please not that "Chinese are going to take Siberia!!111" again :roll:

Seriously what could they do? Give me a reasonable answer on that please.

Out-breed the native population as well as mass-immigration, which will eventually turn the native population of Siberia into a minority, unless Russia acts. Don't be so silly to assume that I think they will invade Siberia militarily.

[DanteXavier]

I dont know why shrinking population is considered to be so negative problem. Less there are people, less there is pollution and waste, leaving better life chances for generations to come.


Its not that simple. If population growth slows at the rate it has in Russia, you risk greatly harming economic development. Too many old people can create a massive hole when it comes to social security/welfare expenses, and without young people labor shortages will be acute.

Cost of labor will go up as well, among many other things. So sure, there will be fewer people, but this notion that their quality of life will actually increase is exactly the problem, and future generations(the few that are born) will not be better off.
People shouldn't be willing to sacrifice their very own existence, the future existence of their children and economic stability for the sake of environmentalism. I cannot see how such a viewpoint will yield good results.

[void]

Out-breed the native population as well as mass-immigration, which will eventually turn the native population of Siberia into a minority, unless Russia acts. Don't be so silly to assume that I think they will invade Siberia militarily.

What is there of value for the Chinese in the areas of Siberia which are reasonably close to China? The gas fields are concentrated to the north and west near the Urals, NOT near China.

[Difool]

If the RF would not treat it's common people so bad I would really consider moving there.

[Empulse]

What is there of value for the Chinese in the areas of Siberia which are reasonably close to China? The gas fields are concentrated to the north and west near the Urals, NOT near China.

And you are seriously presuming that Chinese expansion will stop at the southern border? China needs living space, raw materials, water sources and let it be the closely located and sparsely populated Siberia that offers plenty. Additionally beneficial is that they possess plenty of financial resources.

In the Asian part of Russia (without the Ural Fed. district) there are approximately as many people as in the entire BeNeLux (30 million) spread across a land that is 2/3 the size of the US. Now in the north-eastern borders of China, there are roughly 100 million people with not even nearly as much space, yet the Chinese population is growing rapidly, in contrast to the Russian growth rate.

Now tell me how hard it is to out-migrate /out-bread these 30 million people. If you'd visit Siberia you'd be surprised about the large number of Chinese.

[Ordie]

Perhaps Russia should consider immigration to fulfill their economic needs.

[Switek]

Perhaps Russia should consider immigration to fulfill their economic needs.

China seems to be natural source for that... ;)

[[ KOOSHAB ]]

Don't worry Russia!

I can help repopulate the Russian population:
One fine Russian lady at a time.
---

but seriously,
didn't certain cities in Russia provide incentives towards marriage and or having a child?

[Mu-Meson]

Ahh yes. The UN. The pro-US and anti-Russian biases of the UN are well known.

Wait, wat?

As for this +1,000 people in August. Well I'd wait until you have several months of gains before even considering calling crisis averted. After all, you have had something like 192 months of consecutive decline with an average of -34,000 people per month. 1 data point doesn't make a trend. 192 makes a pretty strong trend.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Perhaps Russia should consider immigration to fulfill their economic needs.If I understand correctly, immigration is exactly what Russia wants to avoid. It may solve the population problem, but will create an entirely different set of problems... as demonstrated in parts of Europe.

[zg18]

China seems to be natural source for that... ;)

Not quite , Russian Far East use North Korean labour ,even cheaper than Chinese, Siberia and European Russia always have work force from Central Asia.

Demographics are quite unpredictable discipline long term , Russia outperformed UN high variant estimation for 2009 , UN estimations are crude construction, and should be primarily understood as such.

[Ordie]

If I understand correctly, immigration is exactly what Russia wants to avoid. It may solve the population problem, but will create an entirely different set of problems... as demonstrated in parts of Europe.

The only other means is to prevent Russians leaving the country by erecting an "Iron Curtin".

Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

In the mean time, Russia must prevent pre-mature deaths. This includes a crackdown of hazing within it's military and auto safety.

Another policy should be the abandonment of Soviet era industrial cities in Northern Russia and relocate the citizens along the Transiberian corridor and Maritime provences.

Cleaning and upgrading Vladivostok would do wonders in attracting Moscovites to East Asia.

[zg18]

And you are seriously presuming that Chinese expansion will stop at the southern border? China needs living space, raw materials, water sources and let it be the closely located and sparsely populated Siberia that offers plenty. Additionally beneficial is that they possess plenty of financial resources.

In the Asian part of Russia (without the Ural Fed. district) there are approximately as many people as in the entire BeNeLux (30 million) spread across a land that is 2/3 the size of the US. Now in the north-eastern borders of China, there are roughly 100 million people with not even nearly as much space, yet the Chinese population is growing rapidly, in contrast to the Russian growth rate.

Now tell me how hard it is to out-migrate /out-bread these 30 million people. If you'd visit Siberia you'd be surprised about the large number of Chinese.

Nukes baby ,nukes make the difference. You forget that most of Siberia is not hospitable for humans, population of Asian Russia is concentrated on southern borders for reason , and so is Canadian population. And we must add Urals federal district to the equation , 13 million population , the fact that most natural resources and industry is situated there and vicinity of 100 million European Russia makes also a difference.

[Wojtop]

When in Moscow I saw a mature woman with two young boys (certainly below 18) walking in the street all drinking beers right in front of police and noone really caring, strange sight to me. Changing such habits will not be easy me thinks.

Regarding declining growth and low live expectancy in Russia - no good for Russian people but not so bad for the country - they won't have a problem of domination of retired people over productive population that Europe is facing at the moment. With age expectancy of about 60 not many people will live long enought to retire.

To be honest I'm more worried about HIV epidemy in Russia than population decline. Reverting the declining trend requires droping condoms, which helps HIV to spread, I really hope Russia finds a way to fight both problems at the same time.

[matthew.manhorn]

Out-breed the native population as well as mass-immigration, which will eventually turn the native population of Siberia into a minority, unless Russia acts. Don't be so silly to assume that I think they will invade Siberia militarily.

Russians aren't the native population of Siberia to begin with anyway. People who wish to see an all "white" Siberia must be kidding themselves

[Empulse]

Russians aren't the native population of Siberia to begin with anyway. People who wish to see an all "white" Siberia must be kidding themselves

I don't see anyone mentioning that ''all white'' people are the definition of Siberian natives... Chinese, with Chinese passports certainly aren't.

[Kiiski]

The most striking thing in Russian demographics is not the falling population but the age structure. This can be seen very clearly from the following graph. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Russia

As you can see, the number of fertile women will drop sharply in 10 years time. When this happens, it would take a huge rise in the number of births/woman to keep up with the present birth rate, not to mention the death rate.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Population_Pyramid_of_Russia_2009.PNG

So the Kremlin has every reason to worry about the situation. Which reminds me of an old Soviet joke:

Q: Why was the Soviet Union unable to gain control of family planning?
A: Because the productive organs were in private hands.

Size of population aside, many Russians are concerned by the fact that Non-Russian citizens (Tatars, Chechens etc.) are reproducing much faster than ethnic Russians. This could mean that in the future, the majority of the citizens of Russian Federation might actually be muslims.



P.S. If one takes a look at the population pyramid above, two interesting (and very sinister) things can be seen:
1. The number of people born during WWII is very small.
2. The huge difference in the male/female-balance with people born before WWII. The deaths of millions of fighting men born in the 20's caused a shift in the male/female-balance unparalleled in modern history. This has been mentioned (at least semi-seriously) as a reason why present-day Russian women are so damn good looking. As there were 2-3 women for every young man (after the war), the uglier half of the gene pool simply disappeared.
P.P.S. No offence intended.

[Ordie]

Does it matter if a Russian citizen is not an ethnic Russian?

[FLIPO]

Was already waiting for the Russia strong crew to jump in ;) If you don't mind, I will not take that number serious. There are lies, damn lies and statistics. After this decade long downwards trend, it's hard to believe this has suddenly changed without concrete proof of changes.

?

Sorry, i should "bold" all your entire answer... But i think you know me better than me, and of course you know much more than russian statists, and what is lie and what is not.

:cantbeli:

[Empulse]

?

Sorry, i should "bold" all your entire answer... But i think you know me better than me, and of course you know much more than russian statists, and what is lie and what is not.

:cantbeli:

Dude. Statisticians are liars. Ever looked at the US unemployment rate. Ever thought of how it is composed? Prisoners are for instance not added to the unemployment rate, whereas in Europe they are. The actual rate is in fact much higher, but that's not my point. Statistics can be so easily manipulated.

However, let's assume this statistical figure is right, there is no conclusion that can be drawn from it. What are we talking about? One freaking month(!) after more than a decade of negative demographic growth. Anyhow, I am not going to argue with you whether the decline is changing in a more favorable position, but the hossana about this one month growth figure is simply ridiculous.

I truly hope that the tide is changing, but I just don't buy these premature conclusions nor do I believe in fairy-tales like some do.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Dude. Statistics are liars. Ever looked at the US unemployment rate. Ever thought of how it is composed? Prisoners are for instance not added to the unemployment rate, whereas in Europe they are. The actual rate is in fact much higher, but that's not my point. Statistics can be so easily manipulated.

However, let's assume this statistical figure is right, there is no conclusion that can be drawn from it. What are we talking about? One freaking month(!) after more than a decade of negative demographic growth. Anyhow, I am not going to argue with you whether the decline is changing in a more favorable position, but the hossana about this one month growth figure is simply ridiculous.

I truly hope that the tide is changing, but I just don't buy these premature decisions nor do I believe in fairy-tales like some do.Moreover the demographic turn around occured after a few years of dramatic economic growth in Russia, the promise of a secure future and support from the government on top.

With the economic future somewhat uncertain for those in the major cities and even bleak for those in the country or "one-trick-pony" industrial cities, the birth rates will likely fall again. For a country it's size, Russia's population is really quite small and it's wealth is far too centralized in Moscow.

If the economy shows signs of real growth again, the demographics of the population will again make progress in the right direction.

[Havoc345]

Does it matter if a Russian citizen is not an ethnic Russian?

Yea :roll:

[Ordie]

Yea :roll:

Why?????????

Again its a damn if you do and damn if you don't issue.

Unless Russia wants to economically hibernate for the next 20 years, there may be no other way to develop economically unless they allow immigration.

Race and ethnicity was not an issue during the Soviet era, therefore it should not be in respect with Russian citzenship.

[zg18]

Size of population aside, many Russians are concerned by the fact that Non-Russian citizens (Tatars, Chechens etc.) are reproducing much faster than ethnic Russians. This could mean that in the future, the majority of the citizens of Russian Federation might actually be muslims.

This is simply not true , the largest Muslim ethnic groups like Tatars (6 million - of which some quarter is orthodox) have comparable birth rates like Russians but probably lower mortality , in any case vodka defeated Qur'an here long time ago , more interesting Chechnya , Ingushetia for instance have lower births in first half of 2009 than in first half of 2008 , and we have to remind that war was there been recently , higher births are expected. No Russia will not become majority Muslims although percentage of Muslim population will rise ,but so what??

Slavs have their "ace in sleeve" - Cossacks , and i agree with Ordie ,ethnicity should not be problem for Russia.

[Flamming_Python]

Russians aren't the native population of Siberia to begin with anyway. People who wish to see an all "white" Siberia must be kidding themselves

As someone here said, sure the Russians arent the native population. But sure as hell the Chinese aint either. The majority of the current settlements, and virtually all of the cities (with perhaps the exception of Vladivostok and Khabarovsk) were founded and developed by Russian settlers.

Even the more numerous asiatic peoples such as the Buryats and Yakuts, colonised their present territory not much further back than the Russians did. The only true Siberian natives, are tribal and nomadic peoples such as the Chukchi and Evenks, but their numbers were never above the low ten thousands; not then, not now.

[TR1]

Yawn, this alarmist stuff again.


True regarding drinking though.

[Solvent]

And you are seriously presuming that Chinese expansion will stop at the southern border? China needs living space, raw materials, water sources and let it be the closely located and sparsely populated Siberia that offers plenty. Additionally beneficial is that they possess plenty of financial resources.

In the Asian part of Russia (without the Ural Fed. district) there are approximately as many people as in the entire BeNeLux (30 million) spread across a land that is 2/3 the size of the US. Now in the north-eastern borders of China, there are roughly 100 million people with not even nearly as much space, yet the Chinese population is growing rapidly, in contrast to the Russian growth rate.

Now tell me how hard it is to out-migrate /out-bread these 30 million people. If you'd visit Siberia you'd be surprised about the large number of Chinese.

Based on Russia's style, I don't see any possibilities of taking over Siberia by Chinese people. I'd rather worry about the safety of people over there. Besides China's coast cities are lack of labor. And the trend probably will be permanent. Labor migration obviously prefers those cities over Siberia in any day.

PS: I see tons of Russian in Sanya, Hainan and Beidaihe, Hebei. I don't make conclusions that Russian is going to take over China.

[Akril]

After this decade long downwards trend, it's hard to believe this has suddenly changed without concrete proof of changes.

It seems that you're living in the year 1999. It's 2009 now. And there were decide of upward trend with declining of death rate and growing of birth rate (as well as fertility rate which is slowly crippling up). It was hidden yet but within next 5 years would be more visible. The august pike is a part of this trend and not just the single case (last august, for example, also bring some symbolic growing, around 170 more people, now it's over thousand next year it will be around ten thousand and so on). In short words: there's nothing to be surprised about if you are familiar with Russian demographics and not just jumped on in this thread with stereotypical prejudges.


And you are seriously presuming that Chinese expansion will stop at the southern border? China needs living space, raw materials, water sources and let it be the closely located and sparsely populated Siberia that offers plenty. Additionally beneficial is that they possess plenty of financial resources.

Oh please. Some US neocon nut felt butthurt about growing Sino-Russian cooperation, which is higher now than was during USSR times, wrote some "cry me a river" publication and now here it is "China needs living space, recurses and so on". On the same time there is Mongolia with the area bigger than any of European country, rich and unexplored west and only 3 millions of population, the country that can be seised by China next hour. And there is the whole Central Asia with better climate conditions, arguably same level of recurses, smaller population within 5 countries than in the whole of Siberia (excepting Far East and eastern part of Urals), crappier conventional forces, zero nukes, and government which is more wiling to give up economic matters to foreign country... But ep, it's right, if China will expand, it will start from Siberia first, certainly.




Size of population aside, many Russians are concerned by the fact that Non-Russian citizens (Tatars, Chechens etc.) are reproducing much faster than ethnic Russians.

I can understand why should I be concerned about increasing of Chechen population (even though they stay within their republic and do not increase their presence in rest of Russia), after both of Chechen wars they lives in completely different society; but why should I be concerned about Tatars and the like? They (together with the rest Turkic, excluding may be thus who live in North Caucassus, and Fino-Ugrian "tribes") integrated within society of Federation maybe more that Scots into society of the United Kingdom.



With the economic future somewhat uncertain for those in the major cities and even bleak for those in the country or "one-trick-pony" industrial cities, the birth rates will likely fall again. For a country it's size, Russia's population is really quite small and it's wealth is far too centralized in Moscow.


For the country of its climate condition, Russia's population is wonderful. Can be bigger though, I agree.

And it seems that you are largely overestimate the current economic crisis in Russia.

[kosse]

Perhaps Russia should consider immigration to fulfill their economic needs.
If they give back my part of the stolen lands I'll be happy to move to "Russia". With the generous help of Russian women I'll do my best to repopulate the land p-)

[TheArmenian]

Some posters mention that Russia is sparsely populated. That's true but there are a multitude of other countries that have even lower density of population.

A perfect example is Canada with an area of about 10 million sq. kms and a population of only 31 million.

China (in general) is not as overpopulated as many people think.

Some of the really overpolpulated contries are European (think of Holland, Belgium and even Italy and UK), they should be looking for living space...

[TR1]

If they give back my part of the stolen lands I'll be happy to move to "Russia". With the generous help of Russian women I'll do my best to repopulate the land p-)
You are not wanted sorry. Mumi troll blood is not needed.

[BlackFlag]

I wish the US had a population of around 150 million. Then you wouldn't see Walmarts and strip malls popping up on every corner, and I wouldn't have to find a new place to hunt every 2 years.

[kosse]

You are not wanted sorry. Mumi troll blood is not needed.
What makes you think my blood is any different than the blood of trolls on the other side of the border? :lol:

[Vityaz]

Slavs have their "ace in sleeve" - Cossacks

I've heard that this is actually one of the reasons that the Chinese illegal immigration problem in the far east hasn't gotten nearly as bad as it could potentially be. Alert Cossacks (local authorities) and dogs in the border regions. Now if only there could be such vigilance in combating Russia's more pressing problems... :|

I think this inevitable demographic collapse stuff is BS. That being said, the population decline is bad and needs to be fixed. Allowing legal immigration from ex-Soviet states (a trend that's already well on its way) is a good start. And the drinking issue ultimately takes time, maybe even generations.

And to the suggestion that Russia should abandon its smaller Siberian cities: that idea was suggested and rejected in the mid '90s iirc.

[void]

And you are seriously presuming that Chinese expansion will stop at the southern border? China needs living space, raw materials, water sources and let it be the closely located and sparsely populated Siberia that offers plenty. Additionally beneficial is that they possess plenty of financial resources.

In the Asian part of Russia (without the Ural Fed. district) there are approximately as many people as in the entire BeNeLux (30 million) spread across a land that is 2/3 the size of the US. Now in the north-eastern borders of China, there are roughly 100 million people with not even nearly as much space, yet the Chinese population is growing rapidly, in contrast to the Russian growth rate.

Now tell me how hard it is to out-migrate /out-bread these 30 million people. If you'd visit Siberia you'd be surprised about the large number of Chinese.

Dude, I cant possibly imagine the Chinese or anybody just picking up their things at home and walking 2000km north into the Tundra to set up shop. Siberia is a cold, cold, wilderness to the North where the resources are, it's just not possible for a gradual clandestine Chinese immigration to take place into a place like that. Have a look at the map, then have a look at how cold it gets in winter, and realise why people dont choose to live there.

This is Siberia we are talking about, the place where political prisoners were sent. Outside of the cities it's a damn fvcking hard place to live.

There may be Chinese people in cities such as Khabarovsk, Vladivostok, even Konsomolsk on Amur, but places such as Yakutsk, Tynda, anything further than 500-700km from the border I doubt would have many recent Chinese immigrants.

The above mentioned cities are just cities, they are not places of strategic resources, those are located far to the North. Do not confuse the small area within 500km of China with the whole of Siberia.

[TR1]

I have visited Siberia, and I was surprised at how few Chinese there were.

[little icebear]

Even if ethnicaly Chinese people in Siberia are about to get busy like rabbits, it wouldn´t change a thing.
Russia wouldn´t allow any attempt to fvck with their territorial integrity. I´d like to see the clown who tries to hand out chinese passports within Mother Russia´s soil.

@ shrinking population: shrinking population in itself is not a problem - the balance of young, working people and the old retired ones is.


Yea :roll:

Racist.

[saturnin]

When I saw title of this thread I was 90 % sure that Sibera and Chinese will be mentioned. :|

the arguments based on population pyramid is valid. Some demographic fenomens can be reversed in one or even ten years. Not that EU countries have lighter future...

as for drinking problem I used to think that this more about prejudice (my russian friend from high school dindn´t drinked much) but I am not so sure now. Last year I noticed smoking pregnant girl in pub. I din´t notice that she was russian until she started drink with some friends and get totaly drunked singing russian anthem etc. At the end some new friends of her come in pub including another two pregnant girls who have drinked as well....!!!!!!! I know that this not statistical base to put any assumption but what striked me is that for all this russians it seemed to be normal that pregnant girl can get drunked and that this is funny!!!! if some of pregnant womens I know would be seen drunked or smoking one cigaret after another she would face convinction from most of her friends.

[Frutzel]

When I saw title of this thread I was 90 % sure that Sibera and Chinese will be mentioned. :|

the arguments based on population pyramid is valid. Some demographic fenomens can be reversed in one or even ten years. Not that EU countries have lighter future...

as for drinking problem I used to think that this more about prejudice (my russian friend from high school dindn´t drinked much) but I am not so sure now. Last year I noticed smoking pregnant girl in pub. I din´t notice that she was russian until she started drink with some friends and get totaly drunked singing russian anthem etc. At the end some new friends of her come in pub including another two pregnant girls who have drinked as well....!!!!!!! I know that this not statistical base to put any assumption but what striked me is that for all this russians it seemed to be normal that pregnant girl can get drunked and that this is funny!!!! if some of pregnant womens I know would be seen drunked or smoking one cigaret after another she would face convinction from most of her friends.

Exactly, this is not a statistical base. During our visit in Prague with my student class we saw a pregnat local girl getting wasted while eating kentucky fried chicken.Moronic people without a feeling of responsibility can be found everywhere, in every country on this planet.

[Hast2]

When I saw title of this thread I was 90 % sure that Sibera and Chinese will be mentioned. :|

the arguments based on population pyramid is valid. Some demographic fenomens can be reversed in one or even ten years. Not that EU countries have lighter future...

as for drinking problem I used to think that this more about prejudice (my russian friend from high school dindn´t drinked much) but I am not so sure now. Last year I noticed smoking pregnant girl in pub. I din´t notice that she was russian until she started drink with some friends and get totaly drunked singing russian anthem etc. At the end some new friends of her come in pub including another two pregnant girls who have drinked as well....!!!!!!! I know that this not statistical base to put any assumption but what striked me is that for all this russians it seemed to be normal that pregnant girl can get drunked and that this is funny!!!! if some of pregnant womens I know would be seen drunked or smoking one cigaret after another she would face convinction from most of her friends.

Lol, another of your "true stories" about ruskies. And each time you add "I know that this not statistical base to put any assumption but...". Also, each time you forget to mention about bears and ushankas. Pay attention!

[kosse]

as for drinking problem I used to think that this more about prejudice (my russian friend from high school dindn´t drinked much) but I am not so sure now. Last year I noticed smoking pregnant girl in pub. I din´t notice that she was russian until she started drink with some friends and get totaly drunked singing russian anthem etc. At the end some new friends of her come in pub including another two pregnant girls who have drinked as well....!!!!!!! I know that this not statistical base to put any assumption but what striked me is that for all this russians it seemed to be normal that pregnant girl can get drunked and that this is funny!!!! if some of pregnant womens I know would be seen drunked or smoking one cigaret after another she would face convinction from most of her friends.

80% of the Russian women go through abortion at least once in their lives. The usual number is 2-10 times per woman. I'm guessing that they had already decided to get rid of their babies at a clinic so smoking and drinking weren't much of an issue (in their minds). Anyway, compared to just about any European country abortion rates in Russia are sky high.

[Holycrusader]

Exactly, this is not a statistical base. During our visit in Prague with my student class we saw a pregnat local girl getting wasted while eating kentucky fried chicken.Moronic people without a feeling of responsibility can be found everywhere, in every country on this planet.


Last time when I was in Prague I saw naked woman on party looking for group ***, all people smoke hash and drink whisky and there was a skinheads conference nearby...

That was cool party...

[Bathinus]

80% of the Russian women go through abortion at least once in their lives. The usual number is 2-10 times per woman. I'm guessing that they had already decided to get rid of their babies at a clinic so smoking and drinking weren't much of an issue (in their minds). Anyway, compared to just about any European country abortion rates in Russia are sky high.


http://planetsmilies.net/shocked-smiley-9489.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[Holycrusader]

http://planetsmilies.net/shocked-smiley-9489.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

Its Kosse, do not pay too much attention to the numbers.

[Mango Madness]

As soon as I saw this article on here I knew people would start citing the recent +1000 natural population growth that happened recently. However I would be cautious about being too optimistic. The real test will be when the small pool of children born in the 90s comes of child bearing age. We shall see if Russia can maintain it's birth rate recovery then.

[kosse]

Its Kosse, do not pay too much attention to the numbers.
Source is David Kinsella's documentary movie "Killing girls". A trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jTVZdDdhuU

Some links about the film:

http://www.nfi.no/english/norwegianfilms/show.html?id=906
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Death+in+Russia:+Killing+Girls:+Russian+women+average+six+abortions...-a0204318265 (http://www.thefreelibrary.com) (seems to require copy-paste)
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09031208.html

[Timmy!]

True story.
All the girls I know had abortion from 2 to 10 times.
Now I'll go drink some cologne, it's already 11 AM!

[kosse]

True story.
All the girls I know had abortion from 2 to 10 times.
Now I'll go drink some cologne, it's already 11 AM!
It was shown on Finnish tv. It must be true.

[dragonunion]

True story.
All the girls I know had abortion from 2 to 10 times.

If you are the one who is responsible for this. Such a strong man you are, my friend. p-)

[Timmy!]

It was shown on Finnish tv. It must be true.
Was it aired before or after "Talvisota" movie?

[kosse]

Was it aired before or after "Talvisota" movie?
Both.

Usual sunday broadcast goes like this:

Talvisota
A documentary about Russia (e.g. Killing girls)
Talvisota
Another documentary about Russia (e.g. From Russia with hate)
Talvisota
.....

p-)

[Timmy!]

No documentaries on Stalin?
WTF?? :|

[saturnin]

Exactly, this is not a statistical base. During our visit in Prague with my student class we saw a pregnat local girl getting wasted while eating kentucky fried chicken.Moronic people without a feeling of responsibility can be found everywhere, in every country on this planet.

Yes and this luck to see some consequences is also connected to upbringing, education, different social groups the women is affected by and millions of other factors. Af for topic there are some OLD data for comparison:
http://www.measuredhs.com/pubs/pub_details.cfm?ID=410&srchTp=advanced

in Czech republic abortion rate is steady decreasing since late 90´s which is given by many factors. Russia federation saw similar development but numbers are still relatively high (bad economic sitiation with no doubt affected this).

as for drinking problem this is not good statistical work: http://www.sucht-addiction.info/content/docs/Russian%20women.pdf

[Timmy!]

As for drinking, Russian is behind Ireland, France, Spain, UK, Germany and Czech. Even in Belgium people drink more than in Russia.
http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/visualizations/89ade5ae139c3cea0113afb63b1e0509

[Holycrusader]

No documentaries on Stalin?
WTF?? :|

Stalin will be metioned in a documentarry about Molotov...

[asch]

True story.
All the girls I know had abortion from 2 to 10 times.
Now I'll go drink some cologne, it's already 11 AM!
11AM and u just begin to drink?

pussy.

[void]

11AM and u just begin to drink?

pussy.

It's a little known fact that Russian men, instead of having milk with their corn-flakes, have vodka with their corn-flakes.

[sarhat]

It's a little known fact that Russian men, instead of having milk with their corn-flakes, have vodka with their corn-flakes.

oligarch...

my choice - "Troyar" (cosmetic for cleaning bath-tub).
http://www.realmusic.ru/media/photos/0/52800/75096.jpg

[kosse]

As for drinking, Russian is behind Ireland, France, Spain, UK, Germany and Czech. Even in Belgium people drink more than in Russia.
http://manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/visualizations/89ade5ae139c3cea0113afb63b1e0509

Drinking culture in Russia (and Funland) is a lot different than in western Europe. In the West drinking is more evenly distributed to whole population and alcohol is also used on meals etc. We eastern barbarians, on the other hand, often seem to consume huge amounts of alcohol at once. Thus also the bigger social problems.

It's like this:

Pierre from France drinks wine on meals and enjoys a few beers after work. Steady consumption of alcohol causes no problems for him. The result is 10 litres of alcohol/year.

Igor From Russia (or Mumin-trollen from Finland) drinks a litre of vodka every once in a while. Being totally wasted he gets in a fight and comes home with a speznaz shovel stuck between his shoulder blades. He drives his nagging wife and kids into the blizzard before passing out. After a few stiches and a visit by police things go back to normal and Igor continues taking his friday bottles.

[Holycrusader]

Drinking culture in Russia (and Funland) .....

and Poland and Ukraine and all ther rest vodka driven part of the world...
But thing is in all our part of the world we drink less and less vodka. Instead beer consumption grows.

[Timmy!]

I agree with you kosse and that post of yours seriously made me laugh. :)

But I think while alcohol consumption in France, Italy and maybe Spain is really different from Eastern Europe - they drink wine mostly - the drinking in UK and Ireland are more similar to our problem, imho. They drink beer - and lots of it - and as I heard beer alcoholism is even worse than vodka addiction (it's stronger, and it's harder to fight against also).
The problem with alcoholism in Russia, as I see it, is that while people who live in cities, not far away from the civilisation, have something to do - they work, they go somewhere to relax etc. In villages deep inside Russia, far away from big city centers, they have only one way for recreation - drink. Now this is a real problem

[saturnin]

I agree with you kosse and that post of yours seriously made me laugh. :)

But I think while alcohol consumption in France, Italy and maybe Spain is really different from Eastern Europe - they drink wine mostly - the drinking in UK and Ireland are more similar to our problem, imho. They drink beer - and lots of it - and as I heard beer alcoholism is even worse than vodka addiction (it's stronger, and it's harder to fight against also).
The problem with alcoholism in Russia, as I see it, is that while people who live in cities, not far away from the civilisation, have something to do - they work, they go somewhere to relax etc. In villages deep inside Russia, far away from big city centers, they have only one way for recreation - drink. Now this is a real problem


Well, I am not expert on this but vodka (or any other "hard" alcohol) is possibly worse than beer alcoholism. First from what I read most alhocol addict who start with beer end with hard alcohol anyway. To get drunk from hard alcohols is also manytimes more dangerour as you can do that quickly and overestimate your "skills", you can also hide at home vodca easier than beer etc.
as fro UK, Ireland, Czech rep. to drink beer is mostly connected with time spended with friends in pubs. In czech rep. it is also connected with traditional czech lunch at weekends and garden party etc. Absolute consuption over there is quite high but drinking culture is somehow different to what can be seen in eastern europe (not speaking about teenagers who wan´t to get drunk and enjoy some fun with that anywhere).

You have point with countryside and options to spend free time. In communist times many people have nothing to do during long and cold nights. And with low income it is similar even now in small villages.

[Flamming_Python]

Its Kosse, do not pay too much attention to the numbers.

Its Kosse, do not pay too much attention to anything.

[jokuvaan]

I found a story(from paper called Trud that interviewed army officers) that is somewhat related to Russian, econo, social problems.

This fall 50 000 draftees have been rejected from service due to serious malnutrition.
Last fall the number was 45 000.

Not much idea of having big families if you cant feed them.

[my name again]

I found a story(from paper called Trud that interviewed army officers) that is somewhat related to Russian, econo, social problems.

This fall 50 000 draftees have been rejected from service due to serious malnutrition.
Last fall the number was 45 000.

Not much idea of having big families if you cant feed them.

Ever thought about the posebility they did a special diet to avoid military service?:roll:

[Derbedeu]

Ever thought about the posebility they did a special diet to avoid military service?:roll:

Why would they voluntarily undergo malnourishment simply to avoid military service?

[jokuvaan]

Ever thought about the posebility they did a special diet to avoid military service?Yes I did, but numbers are too big to cover it all. There were another 20 000 who were barely accepted but given special diet.


Why would they voluntarily undergo malnourishment simply to avoid military service? Life is about choices sometimes.
http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-10-06/russian-army-broken-jaw.html

[my name again]

Why would they voluntarily undergo malnourishment simply to avoid military service?


Malnourishment simply means they dont have enough weight for their heights.

[gazell]

Nukes baby ,nukes make the difference. You forget that most of Siberia is not hospitable for humans, population of Asian Russia is concentrated on southern borders for reason , and so is Canadian population. And we must add Urals federal district to the equation , 13 million population , the fact that most natural resources and industry is situated there and vicinity of 100 million European Russia makes also a difference.

Should have probably said Far-Eastern area, I recall an official once saying, that some places would not even function without the Chinese, as a lot of the Russian population moved from this area.

Also, recall a survey from last year, according to which 70% of Russian women in the area would like a Chinese husband. If that's even remotely true, a promoting 'csaj protiv vodka' campaign is badly needed.p-)

[Mousepad]

Should have probably said Far-Eastern area, I recall an official once saying, that some places would not even function without the Chinese, as a lot of the Russian population moved from this area.

Also, recall a survey from last year, according to which 70% of Russian women in the area would like a Chinese husband. If that's even remotely true, a promoting 'csaj protiv vodka' campaign is badly needed.p-)

Well, this official is saying out of his arse, i don't recall any vital sphere with Chinese in it, small time agriculture, secondary construction, some services, that's all. Actually I, as a guy living here, don't get all this "OMFG China is coming!!!"

As for women, dunno i don't check on every cvnt, but to see mixed marriage is kinda rare, and if husband is asian in appearance, it's 97% - native siberian. Anyway, i would't mind few chicks in red uniforms from recent parade, as 70% of my buddies.

[asch]

Should have probably said Far-Eastern area, I recall an official once saying, that some places would not even function without the Chinese, as a lot of the Russian population moved from this area.

Also, recall a survey from last year, according to which 70% of Russian women in the area would like a Chinese husband. If that's even remotely true, a promoting 'csaj protiv vodka' campaign is badly needed.p-)
it's complete bull****, man. i live here so you got first hand opinion )

[zg18]

Should have probably said Far-Eastern area, I recall an official once saying, that some places would not even function without the Chinese, as a lot of the Russian population moved from this area.

Also, recall a survey from last year, according to which 70% of Russian women in the area would like a Chinese husband. If that's even remotely true, a promoting 'csaj protiv vodka' campaign is badly needed.p-)

I wouldn't mind Chinese women myself :)

[Mango Madness]

I found a story(from paper called Trud that interviewed army officers) that is somewhat related to Russian, econo, social problems.

This fall 50 000 draftees have been rejected from service due to serious malnutrition.
Last fall the number was 45 000.

Not much idea of having big families if you cant feed them.

This reminds me of an article I read that said the average height of the Russian male has decreased during times of reforms in Russia's history.
http://www.ural.ru/news/culture/news-40974.html

Since the time of Peter the Great, major reforms have shortened the younger generation of Russians by 2-3cm . According to Russian scientists, children born after 1990 will be shorter than the current generation of Russians. Before Peter the Great's reforms, the average height of the Russian male was 163cm and after the reforms the average height decreased to 161cm. The height of Russians then proceeded to increase until Catherline II's reforms, after which the average height decreased by 4.5cm, with and the average height of the Russian army conscript being 160cm. The next dip occurred during the reforms of Alexander II.

After the Great Patriotic War the health of the average Russian grew. In 1960-1970 the average height of men in the Soviet Union amounted to 168cm and 157cm for women, however this statistic takes into account the whole Soviet population, the average height of Russians was taller than this as this statistic was weighed down by people in the Central Asian republics. This period after the Great Patriotic war was a time of great increases in the average height of Russian, with the result that by the time the Soviet Union collapsed the average height of the Russian male was 176cm and woman was 164cm.

The reforms and economic shocks of the 90s have the result that the youngest generation of Russians will be shorter than the previous generation. The deterioration of living conditions, especially food, came into conflict with these childrens genetic program, because the first year of a childs life plays a key role in further development. The delay of the genetic program is particularly evident when comparing the length of the body of a newborn, and child growth during adolescence. The second important stage occurs at age 6-7 years, and the third in 12. During these years, it is important not to get sick. Any serious illness decreases the childs height by 2-3cm. A huge role is in the childs final height is played by their nutrition.

[Hazzard]

Should have probably said Far-Eastern area, I recall an official once saying, that some places would not even function without the Chinese, as a lot of the Russian population moved from this area.


http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9040/notthissagain.jpg

China has thei own, Sintszjan-Uigur area with population density more low, than in Primorski Krai and with problems of Uigur separatism. Gas, oil and minerals are presented too. There is nearby Mongolia with population density 1,8 persons on square kilometre, with non used stocks of oil and coal. BUT NOOO!!! They will confront with nuclear power to have joy of extracting oil in -60C temperature.

[void]

China has thei own, Sintszjan-Uigur area with population density more low, than in Primorski Krai and with problems of Uigur separatism. Gas, oil and minerals are presented too. There is nearby Mongolia with population density 1,8 persons on square kilometre, with non used stocks of oil and coal. BUT NOOO!!! They will confront with nuclear power to have joy of extracting oil in -60C temperature.

Not just -60C, but also 2000km into Russia away from the Chinese border... I point you to this image:

http://www.stratfor.com/files/mmf/4/d/4d50ce33c79a9978797b8c52edb1ebf54727e79f.jpg

or:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/soviet_pet_deposit_82.jpg

Now, goto Google maps and see just how frigging far that is from China.

[gazell]

Well, this official is saying out of his arse, i don't recall any vital sphere with Chinese in it, small time agriculture, secondary construction, some services, that's all. Actually I, as a guy living here, don't get all this "OMFG China is coming!!!"

As for women, dunno i don't check on every cvnt, but to see mixed marriage is kinda rare, and if husband is asian in appearance, it's 97% - native siberian. Anyway, i would't mind few chicks in red uniforms from recent parade, as 70% of my buddies.



it's complete bull****, man. i live here so you got first hand opinion )

One of those overly charged propaganda pieces then, hey? Makes perfect sense to the outsider though, considering that we have Chinese immigrants just about everywhere and they are falling off at their borders, the more interesting thing is, if a neighbouring country does not have them.

[gazell]

I wouldn't mind Chinese women myself :)

Nobody is stopping you, zg.p-)

[gazell]

China has thei own, Sintszjan-Uigur area with population density more low, than in Primorski Krai and with problems of Uigur separatism. Gas, oil and minerals are presented too. There is nearby Mongolia with population density 1,8 persons on square kilometre, with non used stocks of oil and coal. BUT NOOO!!! They will confront with nuclear power to have joy of extracting oil in -60C temperature.

What confrontation? Talking immigration/guest workers here. If anybody wants to work in those conditions, grab them.

[void]

One of those overly charged propaganda pieces then, hey? Makes perfect sense to the outsider though, considering that we have Chinese immigrants just about everywhere and they are falling off at their borders, the more interesting thing is, if a neighbouring country does not have them.

Immigration is not only a function of geographic distance, but also one of cultural factors, immigration policies, and employment opportunities. Chinese immigrants may be very numerous in countries such as Australia or the US because those countries have favourable conditions for such immigrants. In Russia there isnt such a favourable condition I would say in comparison.

If there are no job opportunities or legal opportunities for a Chinese immigrant in Russia, why would they go there just because it is close by? That makes no sense.

[Solvent]

Immigration is not only a function of geographic distance, but also one of cultural factors, immigration policies, and employment opportunities. Chinese immigrants may be very numerous in countries such as Australia or the US because those countries have favourable conditions for such immigrants. In Russia there isnt such a favourable condition I would say in comparison.

If there are no job opportunities or legal opportunities for a Chinese immigrant in Russia, why would they go there just because it is close by? That makes no sense.

Exactly, people know there is huge risk involving in immigration there. Read somebody's true story about life in Russian, quite a experience.

Long story short: "Moscow doesn't believe tears."

[gazell]

Immigration is not only a function of geographic distance, but also one of cultural factors, immigration policies, and employment opportunities. Chinese immigrants may be very numerous in countries such as Australia or the US because those countries have favourable conditions for such immigrants. In Russia there isnt such a favourable condition I would say in comparison.

If there are no job opportunities or legal opportunities for a Chinese immigrant in Russia, why would they go there just because it is close by? That makes no sense.

Exactly. Nought to do with distance and nukes.

[Switek]

Immigration is not only a function of geographic distance, but also one of cultural factors, immigration policies, and employment opportunities. Chinese immigrants may be very numerous in countries such as Australia or the US because those countries have favourable conditions for such immigrants. In Russia there isnt such a favourable condition I would say in comparison.

If there are no job opportunities or legal opportunities for a Chinese immigrant in Russia, why would they go there just because it is close by? That makes no sense.

Emigration is always connected with possible increasing of living standards. People are hardly aware of social costs of rapid Chinese development. Vast number of people, esp peasants are excluded from the Chinese development benefits. Social class system in China resembles a caste system. Chinese immigrants in Russia can earn not only money but find the way for changing their social status for themselves or their successors.

[void]

Emigration is always connected with possible increasing of living standards. People are hardly aware of social costs of rapid Chinese development. Vast number of people, esp peasants are excluded from the Chinese development benefits. Social class system in China resembles a caste system. Chinese immigrants in Russia can earn not only money but find the way for changing their social status for themselves or their successors.

I am yet to see any real evidence that a poverty stricken Chinese citizen can illegally migrate to Eastern Siberia and have a good chance of prospering.

[Switek]

I am yet to see any real evidence that a poverty stricken Chinese citizen can illegally migrate to Eastern Siberia and have a good chance of prospering.


The key is they'd assimilate. The case if they are illegal or not is secondary matter.

[void]

The key is they'd assimilate. The case if they are illegal or not is secondary matter.

If they are legal immigrants then the rate of immigration is easily controlled. If they assimilate and become Russians then what is the problem?

[gazell]

Well, this official is saying out of his arse, i don't recall any vital sphere with Chinese in it, small time agriculture, secondary construction, some services, that's all. Actually I, as a guy living here, don't get all this "OMFG China is coming!!!"

As for women, dunno i don't check on every cvnt, but to see mixed marriage is kinda rare, and if husband is asian in appearance, it's 97% - native siberian. Anyway, i would't mind few chicks in red uniforms from recent parade, as 70% of my buddies.

Here it is, mayor of Vladivostok, p5.

http://www.apcss.org/Publications/SAS/ChinaDebate/ChinaDebate_Azizian.pdf

I realise, he is in the 'alarmists' section, but I thought it wasn't referring to the data, but to these people's attitude to the issue. Putin also lets out some steam on the topic.

I know there was a new immigration policy introduced since then, are the Chinese still restricted? Do you at all prefer people from the gangsteristans?

[asch]

Here it is, mayor of Vladivostok, p5.
oh no, man, not Cherepkov, please!
guy much less sane than average March Hare. p-)

in his times (beginning of 90's) life was, err, "interesting". bitch completely cut good part of vital city services, including emergency medical one. it was relief when he stole enough to buy himself place in Duma, hence leaved mayor post.

and his estimations... 40% of business, 100% of small businesses... it not take a smart man to understand bizzare of this numbers.

for now, Chinese population of past-Ural Russia estimated 300 000 persons, incl illegal. and such status remain in this borders for the past 3 years. of all my business partners i can name only one Chinese-owned company. and a three South-Korean-owned ))

[gazell]

oh no, man, not Cherepkov, please!
guy much less sane than average March Hare. p-)

in his times (beginning of 90's) life was, err, "interesting". bitch completely cut good part of vital city services, including emergency medical one. it was relief when he stole enough to buy himself place in Duma, hence leaved mayor post.

and his estimations... 40% of business, 100% of small businesses... it not take a smart man to understand bizzare of this numbers.

Oh, I remember that! So, if the guy is lying, this is pure scaremongering along with the rest of them. What for?


for now, Chinese population of past-Ural Russia estimated 300 000 persons, incl illegal. and such status remain in this borders for the past 3 years. of all my business partners i can name only one Chinese-owned company. and a three South-Korean-owned ))

That's not much. I'm not a buyer though for what some posters are suggesting that they don't want to go as it's so bad there. What Void was mentioning about legal situation sounds more likely. The figures from OP really suggest that more immigrants are needed, so I do not understand this OMG attitude at all.

[Solvent]

Social class system in China resembles a caste system. Chinese immigrants in Russia can earn not only money but find the way for changing their social status for themselves or their successors.

Please enlighten me, what is social class system in China? How it resembles a caste system? And Immigrate to Russia to improve social status is such LOL.

[Switek]

Please enlighten me, what is social class system in China? How it resembles a caste system? And Immigrate to Russia to improve social status is such LOL.
Because of administrative restrictions there's limited possibility for peasants to settle down legally in the cities. Most official posts in bureaucratic apparatus of power is reserved to party members and their relatives and so on...

[Solvent]

Because of administrative restrictions there's limited possibility for peasants to settle down legally in the cities. Most official posts in bureaucratic apparatus of power is reserved to party members and their relatives and so on...

So why there are so many peasants living in the cities? They are doing all kinds of jobs there. Even many official posts are taken by people with special relationships, I think you do know majority of Chinese people is not working in Government, do you?