Ukraine-Russia tensions evident in Crimea [Archive]

Afro-European

10-06-2009, 04:00 AM

By Philip P. Pan (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/articles/philip+p.+pan/)
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, October 6, 2009

SEVASTOPOL, Ukraine -- On maps, Crimea is Ukrainian territory, and this naval citadel on its southern coast is a Ukrainian city. But when court bailiffs tried to serve papers at a lighthouse here in August, they suddenly found themselves surrounded by armed troops from Russia's (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/russia.html?nav=el) Black Sea Fleet who delivered them to police as if they were trespassing teenagers.
The humiliating episode underscored Russia's continuing influence in the storied peninsula on the Black Sea nearly two decades after the fall of the Soviet Union -- and the potential for trouble here ahead of Ukraine's first presidential vote since the 2005 Orange Revolution.
Huge crowds of protesters defied Moscow in that peaceful uprising and swept a pro-Western government into power. Now, the Kremlin is working to undo that defeat, ratcheting up pressure on this former Soviet republic to elect a leader more amenable to Russia's interests in January.
Russian President Dmitry Medvedev issued a letter in August demanding policy reversals from a new Ukrainian government, including an end to its bid to join NATO. He also introduced a bill authorizing the use of troops to protect Russian citizens and Russian speakers abroad, a measure that some interpreted as targeting Crimea.
A group of prominent Ukrainians, including the country's first president, responded with a letter urging President Obama to prevent a "possible military intervention" by Russia that would "bring back the division of Europe." Ukraine gave up the nuclear arsenal it inherited from the Soviet Union in exchange for security guarantees from the United States and other world powers, they noted.
If a crisis is ahead, it is likely to involve Crimea, a peninsula of rolling steppe and sandy beaches about the size of Maryland. The region was once part of Russia, and it is the only place in Ukraine where ethnic Russians are the majority. In the mid-1990s, it elected a secessionist leader who nearly sparked a civil war.
Crimea is also home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet, which is based in Sevastopol under a deal with Ukraine that expires in 2017. Russia wants to extend the lease, but Ukraine's current government insists it must go.
"It would be easy for Russia to inspire a crisis or conflict in Crimea if it continues to lose influence in Ukraine," said Grigory Perepelitsa, director of the Foreign Policy Institute in the Ukrainian Diplomatic Academy. "That's the message they're sending to any future president."
Russia's state-controlled media, widely available and popular in Crimea, have hammered the authorities in Kiev as irredeemably anti-Russian, and prominent Russian politicians have been calling for reunification with Crimea.
But five years of policies in Kiev aimed at drawing Ukraine closer to Europe and the United States and at promoting Ukrainian language and history have also alienated the region. Ukraine's president, Viktor Yushchenko, the hero of the Orange Revolution, won only 6 percent of the vote here.
"He tried to force his ideology on us, and he failed," said Valeriy Saratov, chairman of the Sevastopol city council. "We don't feel we were conquered by Russia, but by Europe. We fought the Italians, the Germans, the French, the British. . . . We would never take sides against Russia."
Vladimir Struchkov, a pro-Russia activist and leader of a parents' organization in Sevastopol, said residents are especially upset about a new regulation requiring students to take college entrance exams in Ukrainian, eliminating a Russian option.
While Kiev is playing identity politics, he argued, Moscow has been investing in Sevastopol, building schools, apartments and pools, repairing monuments and even opening a branch of Moscow State University.
The result has been a sharp shift in Crimean attitudes. In 2006, about 74 percent of Crimean residents regarded Ukraine as their motherland, but by last year, that figure had fallen to 40 percent, according to a survey by the Razumkov Center, a top research institute in Kiev.
Crimea became part of the Russian empire in 1783 after a long period of rule by Crimean Tatars, an indigenous Turkic people. During World War II, Germany (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/germany.html?nav=el) captured the peninsula. After the war, the Soviet Union's Joseph Stalin accused the Tatars of Nazi collaboration and ordered their mass deportation. The Communists then sought to resettle the peninsula with politically reliable families, mostly Russians with ties to the military or the party apparatus.
When the Soviet Union collapsed, these people suddenly found themselves living in Ukraine instead of Russia, because Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev had transferred Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 in a move that had little impact at the time.
Today, about 60 percent of the region's 2.3 million residents are Russian and 25 percent are Ukrainian. But the two ethnic groups are thoroughly intertwined. Opinion polls show majorities of both want the Black Sea Fleet to stay and support reunification with Russia, though there is similar support for greater autonomy for Crimea within Ukraine.
Crimean Tatars, who were allowed to return in the 1980s, make up about 10 percent of the population and are largely opposed to a return to Russian rule.
Refat Chubarov, a leader of the main Crimean Tatar political organization, said Russian media have vilified his people as criminals, playing on fears of Islam and their efforts to reclaim lost homes. But even among the Tatars, frustration with Kiev is rising.
"We are the strongest supporters of Ukrainian sovereignty in Crimea," Chubarov said. "But the disappointment is growing because the authorities have not done enough to provide land and other compensation to returning families."
Volodymyr Pritula, a veteran journalist and political analyst in Crimea, said the Kremlin has been trying to provoke ethnic conflict in the region, both to undermine the Ukrainian government and provide an excuse for intervention.
Three years ago, Vladimir Putin, then Russia's president, offered to help resolve tensions in Crimea after a clash between Russians and Tatars and suggested that the Russian fleet should stay to "guarantee stability," Pritula noted.
In recent months, he added, the Kremlin has stepped up its activities, with Russian nationalist groups staging protests on Ukrainian holidays and media outlets resuming the attacks on Tatars after a pause last year.
Emotions have been running high since Russia's war last year with another pro-Western neighbor, Georgia. The Black Sea Fleet participated in the conflict, and Ukrainian officials infuriated Russia by suggesting its ships might not be allowed to return to Sevastopol.
Tensions flared again this summer when Ukrainian police stopped Russian trucks three times for transporting missiles in Sevastopol without advance notice. Then came the episode with the bailiffs at Kherson Lighthouse, one of dozens of navigational markers along the Crimean coast that both Ukraine and the Russian fleet claim to own.
Judges have tried to order the fleet to hand over various facilities before, with the Russians routinely refusing and bailiffs departing without incident. But this time, the fleet accused Ukraine of "penetrating the territory of a Russian military unit" and warned of "possible tragic consequences to such actions."
Vladimir Kazarin, the city's deputy mayor, said the bailiffs stepped past a gate because no sentries were posted but quickly found the commanding officer, who asked them to wait while he sought instructions. Five minutes later, he returned with the soldiers who detained the bailiffs.
"Relations with the fleet have generally been good," Kazarin said. "But this just shows that people in Moscow are trying to find any excuse for conflict."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/05/AR2009100501755.html?hpid=artslot

tyovan

10-06-2009, 11:24 AM

The West is gonna have some real nice blowback from recognizing Kosovo if Crimea's residents democratically and peacefully vote for secession..

Difool

10-06-2009, 12:10 PM

A thread that I predict a long list of posts.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=1342&pictureid=16730
Anyone recieved this advertisement, too?

Satorius

10-06-2009, 12:34 PM

The West is gonna have some real nice blowback from recognizing Kosovo if Crimea's residents democratically and peacefully vote for secession..

Ukraine do not recognize Kosovo as independant state and do not recognize S. Ossetia/Abkhazia, so apply these sucessionist cases as the justification for interior separatism to those states that recognize Kosova or S. Ossetia/Abkhazia that is the US, Canada, some other Western states, the Russian Federation with its two muchachos from Latin America.

tea drinker

10-06-2009, 12:50 PM

Ukraine do not recognize Kosovo as independant state and do not recognize S. Ossetia/Abkhazia, so apply these sucessionist cases as the justification for interior separatism to those states that recognize Kosova or S. Ossetia/Abkhazia that is the US, Canada, some other Western states, the Russian Federation with its two muchachos from Latin America.
They'll never get into the EU with that attitude. p-)

Satorius

10-06-2009, 01:16 PM

They'll never get into the EU with that attitude. p-)

Considering the experience of their Eastern European EU neighbours there are no pulpable benefits from joining the EU apart from abolishing visas. But from national point of view it can hardly be a a benefit as it just conduce to the flee of local labour resources to richer EU states.

Akril

10-06-2009, 01:16 PM

I never herd anything about Crimea Tatars in Russian media, except slight report about tensions several years ago.

May be dude speaks about Russian Ukrainian media?

Empulse

10-06-2009, 01:37 PM

edit wrong thread

davey

10-06-2009, 02:29 PM

Another "Russia Bad" thread. Russophobes, jump aboard.

Danskeren, where are you? I'm missing you already.

ATA

10-06-2009, 02:34 PM

Its not another bad thread, but opinion of posters!-

Ordie

10-06-2009, 02:34 PM

It's time to send the Light Brigade.

AmaStrat

10-06-2009, 10:36 PM

Russia will not leave Sevastopol' due to the surrounding population being mainly Russian, somehow Ukraine will have to live with that.

Derbedeu

10-06-2009, 10:43 PM

Russia will not leave Sevastopol' due to the surrounding population being mainly Russian, somehow Ukraine will have to live with that.

Their lease ends in 2017, no? We'll have to wait and see until then whether it gets renewed or not.

Universal_Soldier

10-06-2009, 10:57 PM

Their lease ends in 2017, no? We'll have to wait and see until then whether it gets renewed or not.

will largely depend on the new administration....However, if they have to leave Sevastopol, I don't think they will be going very far. Alas! Abkhazia :)

In that case, they 'll remain the "Black Sea Fleet".

Derbedeu

10-06-2009, 11:06 PM

will largely depend on the new administration....However, if they have to leave Sevastopol, I don't think they will be going very far. Alas! Abkhazia :)

In that case, they 'll remain the "Black Sea Fleet".

Aren't the Russians building a new base in Russia, Novorossiyk, precisely because of the ambiguity revolving around the lease? What would be the pros/cons of having to move there?

Universal_Soldier

10-06-2009, 11:15 PM

Aren't the Russians building a new base in Russia, Novorossiyk, precisely because of the ambiguity revolving around the lease? What would be the pros/cons of having to move there?

You are right about the base in Novorossiysk and as I heard the construction started a while ago albeit slowly. I think it's actually a better option than Abkhazia IMO.

domokun

10-06-2009, 11:17 PM

Aren't the Russians building a new base in Russia, Novorossiyk, precisely because of the ambiguity revolving around the lease? What would be the pros/cons of having to move there?

Obvious con would be cost of new docks and ports for naval base. Besides that almost all other military and civilian infrastructure would have to built there. It would probably be very costly in money.

Derbedeu

10-06-2009, 11:46 PM

But a big positive would be not being constrained to operating on foreign soil. If things flare up between Ukraine and Russia (diplomatically of course), Russia would be unhindered by having to worry about such complications.

shoora

10-07-2009, 03:52 AM

Derbedeu

10-07-2009, 04:02 AM

void

10-07-2009, 04:14 AM

Why would the US Navy choose to base itself in the Black Sea? The US has the biggest true ocean going Navy in the world. Frankly, I don't see any reason for them to bottle themselves up in the Black Sea. Such speculation is nothing more than that, rampant speculation. After all we already have bases in Naples and Bahrain, getting a base in the Black Sea would be pointless.

To piss off Russia and to support the "Orange Revolution"? Seems like two causes which the US has shown an interest in over the years.

Switek

10-07-2009, 04:29 AM

Anyway it is intersting case, IMHO. Anyway there are not good solutions for Russia except mutual political, diplomatic dialog. The problem is that many Russians and their leaders do not treat Ukrainian sovereignty and independence seriously. South Ossetian and Abkhazian scenarios will not work there. From my point of view, if more violently Russia solves Crimean case than better for Middle Europe.

davey

10-07-2009, 05:22 AM

Why would the US Navy choose to base itself in the Black Sea?

1 Because that is the nature of empire building
2. To project power and influence in the region and to make the Black Sea an American sea
3. To reduce Russian power and influence in the Black Sea
4. To support the Orange Buffoons with a physical presence
5. To support the Georgian Buffoon with a physical presence (what was that colour again?)
6. To support the Moldovan government with a physical presence
7. To engage Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova militarily and increase military cooperation with them. To piss the Russians off and compel these three countries to take permanent refuge on the American side. In the longer term to expand the market for American arms manufacturers.
8. To support pipeline politics in Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

You could also have asked the following questions about American power projection:

Why does the US operate so many aircraft carriers?
Why does it have so many bases in foreign countries?

Answer: It is a belligerent, war mongering empire.

The US has the biggest true ocean going Navy in the world.

I believe you have just answered your own question.

Switek

10-07-2009, 05:38 AM

^^^^^

I read this as paranoiac .... :|

in lighter mp.net version: What stuff did you smoke today?

;)

Robert.V

10-07-2009, 07:36 AM

It's time to send the Light Brigade.

You mean the turks ..the real heroes of that day.

in lighter mp.net version: What stuff did you smoke today?

The same **** you've been having. ;)

Who's the nice granny ?

shoora

10-07-2009, 07:41 AM

^^^^^

I read this as paranoiac .... :|

in lighter mp.net version: What stuff did you smoke today?

;)

If this is paranoja, then why exactly Poland is now part of NATO? Did completely ruined in 90s Ukraine, Belarus or Russia somehow threatened Poland. Give me a break! What stuff did YOU smoke today? Or Gorbachev never received promise that NATO will never ever do its "Drag Nach Osten"? I would be surprised if this trick will work again with Russia.

Robert.V

10-07-2009, 07:44 AM

What did ol Gordby say again ? "We gave them our hand and they took the whole arm"

Switek

10-07-2009, 08:12 AM

If this is paranoja, then why exactly Poland is now part of NATO? Did completely ruined in 90s Ukraine, Belarus or Russia somehow threatened Poland. Give me a break! What stuff did YOU smoke today? Or Gorbachev never received promise that NATO will never ever do its "Drag Nach Osten"? I would be surprised if this trick will work again with Russia.

Give me a break! rofl. The sad thing is that even quite intelligent Russians buy this cheap propaganda crap from their government. Russia has nothing to offer what can't be bought in normal economic trade. No war is really needed

Do you know what scenarios were trained during latest joint Russian-Belorussian exercises "The West"? Your generals must live on another planet...

Switek

10-07-2009, 08:14 AM

What did ol Gordby say again ? "We gave them our hand and they took the whole arm"

Poland and other Middle European countries never were a Russian hand.

Satorius

10-07-2009, 08:17 AM

As I understand, Russian Federation has (not crimean people) have no problem to leave Sebastopol. Only problem, as soon as they left the city, US Navy inevitably will come aboard :-) And this time Russia will not take a word, that this event will never happen.

Sevastopol is a strtegic deadlock and of no interest to the US as a military base. Washington can locate its Navy in Bulgaria, Romania, Georgia or Turkey.

I would expect huge resistance.Aha, the thousands of Crimeans are ready to fight and die just not to let the Americans appear in the Crimea. As true Russian patriots say "Putin and Moscow are behind us there is no way to retreat". I hope we'll see you in the forefont of this resistance killing banderite Ukronazis and their US masters, comarade. You must be on the secret Russian patriotic mission in the US/Kharkov, right? Not because of miserable desire to earn dollars working for the US economy/government like all these Malorossian fascist scum?

asch

10-07-2009, 08:24 AM

Aha, the thousands of Crimeans are ready to fight and die just not to let the Americans appear in the Crimea. As true Russian patriots say "Putin and Moscow are behind us there is no way to retreat". I hope we'll see you in the forefont of this resistance killing banderite Ukronazis and their US masters, comarade. You must be on the secret Russian patriotic mission in the US/Kharkov, right? Not because of miserable desire to earn dollars working for the US economy/government like all these Malorossian fascist scum?
you are full of ****.

davey

10-07-2009, 08:32 AM

I read this as paranoiac .... :|

in lighter mp.net version: What stuff did you smoke today?;)

Ask a few innocent Iraqi's:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli:

Frutzel

10-07-2009, 08:33 AM

davey

10-07-2009, 08:46 AM

I guess German generals are maniacs too?

Don't forget the Polishroflroflrofl

Sashko

10-07-2009, 10:26 AM

Sevastopol is a strtegic deadlock and of no interest to the US as a military base. Washington can locate its Navy in Bulgaria, Romania, Georgia or Turkey.

Turkey is a big no-no, neither Bulgaria nor Romania have the facilities already avaliable, and Georgia...well rofl

Aha, the thousands of Crimeans are ready to fight and die just not to let the Americans appear in the Crimea. As true Russian patriots say "Putin and Moscow are behind us there is no way to retreat". I hope we'll see you in the forefont of this resistance killing banderite Ukronazis and their US masters, comarade. You must be on the secret Russian patriotic mission in the US/Kharkov, right? Not because of miserable desire to earn dollars working for the US economy/government like all these Malorossian fascist scum?

Wtf are you babbling about? Ukraine is very multi-layered and so are loyalties of its population. Crimea will explode if Ukrainian government continues its attempts to "Ukranize" its population and institutions, and that's a fact.

Afro-European

10-07-2009, 10:59 AM

Khrushchev,an Ukrainian, took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine when he was the Soviet leader, even though most people in Crimea ar ethnically Russian.
Today, 60% of the Crimean population is Russian or hold Russian passports.
If Ukraine insists on joining NATO--an action that violates the 1997 Russia--Ukraine treaty,could Russia declare that treaty null and void and reclaim Crimea?

Satorius

10-07-2009, 12:00 PM

Turkey is a big no-no, neither Bulgaria nor Romania have the facilities already avaliable, and Georgia...well rofl

Facilities can be built. Or they would have already been built if the US had needed a navy base in the Black Sea.

Turkey already has large American air base at Incirik. So much about "big no-no"

Wtf are you babbling about? Ukraine is very multi-layered and so are loyalties of its population. Crimea will explode if Ukrainian government continues its attempts to "Ukranize" its population and institutions, and that's a fact.Explode? Buddy, the majority of locals supported Ukrainian independence and thus Ukrainian sovereignty over Crimea under the banderite blue-yellow flag in 1991. That's a fact. Where were your "multi-layered and so are loyalties of its population"? Where were you, current Russian hurrah-patriots and your parents, when the USSR was collapsing? You did not stir a finger in spite of your present-day bellicose claims. I guess you were packing things to move to the West.
All the anti-"Ukrainization" demonstration in Crimea usually gather several hundred persons at best. That's a fact. The experience of such countries as Turkmenistan shows that even if Russians are deprived of their property, medical care and all the civil rights, nothing explodes and Kremlin stays on good terms with local government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkmenistan

Let's recollect Chechnya. Numerous Local Russians did not show any "explosions" and loyalty to the RF when Dudaev with his political agenda came to power. How many Russian civilian residents remain in Chechnya today after Russian troops invasion?

By the way, are you a Russian patriot-runaway to the adverasary US/West? You are so funny, guys. Babbling traditional Russian hurrah-patriotic nuisence, bashing the US and West for Russophobia and anti-RF policy while working for the American/Western economies/governments and financing evil uncle Sam and its foreign policy with your taxes.

Papenheims

10-07-2009, 12:07 PM

Satorius

10-07-2009, 12:16 PM

Khrushchev,an Ukrainian, took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine when he was the Soviet leader, even though most people in Crimea ar ethnically Russian.

So what? Russians have almost always been run by non-Russians in the USSR and in the Russian Empire. In reality, Russians have the majority only in the South-Eastern Crimea. Khrushchev should have given Kuban (present-day Krasnodar Kraj) to Ukraine as well. If it had happened there would be no Kremlin fueling separatism in Abkhazia.

Today, 60% of the Crimean population is Russian or hold Russian passports.
If Ukraine insists on joining NATO--an action that violates the 1997 Russia--Ukraine treaty,could Russia declare that treaty null and void and reclaim Crimea?Joining NATO hasn't been prohibitted by any Russia--Ukraine treaties.Any agreement can be declared null and void irrespectively of circumstances.

Satorius

10-07-2009, 12:23 PM

Krushchev was not Ukrainian, but Russian. And Crimea was only part of Russia as autonomous soviet socialist republic.

Yes, ethnically he wasn't but he belonged to the Ukrainian bureaucratic clan in the Soviet communist party that contributed to removing Beria and Co from power and destalinisation. In fact, under Khrushchev Ukrainians ousted Jews and partially representatives of Caucasus from the top of Soviet power hierachy and gained more power after Khrushchev.

User_Name

10-07-2009, 12:25 PM

Krushchev was not Ukrainian, but Russian. And Crimea was only part of Russia as autonomous soviet socialist republic.
really?
roflroflrofl
You made my day...

Arbody

10-07-2009, 12:27 PM

Krushchev was not Ukrainian, but Russian. And Crimea was only part of Russia as autonomous soviet socialist republic. sorry usually I don't post at stupid comments, but you are an IGNORANT!111

User_Name

10-07-2009, 12:28 PM

Khrushchev should have given Kuban (present-day Krasnodar Kraj) to Ukraine as well.

Svydomy dreamings, for you is Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast too muchrofl

Hast2

10-07-2009, 12:29 PM

Krushchev was not Ukrainian, but Russian. And Crimea was only part of Russia as autonomous soviet socialist republic.

WHAT?

:backhand:

Papenheims

10-07-2009, 12:35 PM

really?
roflroflrofl
You made my day...

Really, how nice!

Obviously I forgot to add that Crimea was ASSR only till 1945 when Crimean Tatars were sent to Central Asia. Anyway it was re-established in 1991.

User_Name

10-07-2009, 12:43 PM

Really, how nice!

Obviously I forgot to add that Crimea was ASSR only till 1945 when Crimean Tatars were sent to Central Asia. Anyway it was re-established in 1991.

little help for ignorant user, look for 1783:)

Sashko

10-07-2009, 12:52 PM

Facilities can be built. Or they would have already been built if the US had needed a navy base in the Black Sea.

Turkey already has large American air base at Incirik. So much about "big no-no"

Explode? Buddy, the majority of locals supported Ukrainian independence and thus Ukrainian sovereignty over Crimea under the banderite blue-yellow flag in 1991. That's a fact. Where were your "multi-layered and so are loyalties of its population"? Where were you, current Russian hurrah-patriots and your parents, when the USSR was collapsing? You did not stir a finger in spite of your present-day bellicose claims. I guess you were packing things to move to the West.
All the anti-"Ukrainization" demonstration in Crimea usually gather several hundred persons at best. That's a fact. The experience of such countries as Turkmenistan shows that even if Russians are deprived of their property, medical care and all the civil rights, nothing explodes and Kremlin stays on good terms with local government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkmenistan

Let's recollect Chechnya. Numerous Local Russians did not show any "explosions" and loyalty to the RF when Dudaev with his political agenda came to power. How many Russian civilian residents remain in Chechnya today after Russian troops invasion?

By the way, are you a Russian patriot-runaway to the adverasary US/West? You are so funny, guys. Babbling traditional Russian hurrah-patriotic nuisence, bashing the US and West for Russophobia and anti-RF policy while working for the American/Western economies/governments and financing evil uncle Sam and its foreign policy with your taxes.

cool story, bro.

Papenheims

10-07-2009, 12:53 PM

little help for ignorant user, look for 1783:)

When Afro-European said -

"took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine when he was the Soviet leader"

It should be evident that with Russia in my response I meant Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic from which ASSR Crimea was transferred to Ukrainian SSR.

Arbody

10-07-2009, 01:15 PM

Difool

10-07-2009, 01:17 PM

When Afro-European said -

"took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine when he was the Soviet leader"

It should be evident that with Russia in my response I meant Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic from which ASSR Crimea was transferred to Ukrainian SSR.

And we all know what problems there are today with donations like that. Think of Abkhazia and Osetia for example.
There wouldn't be a problem with the Crimea today if the current Ukrainian government would treat the Russian and other Russian speaking people in the eastern and southern Ukraine with more respect.

Arbody

10-07-2009, 01:20 PM

tommy00

10-07-2009, 01:32 PM

There wouldn't be a problem with the Crimea today if the current Ukrainian government would treat the Russian and other Russian speaking people in the eastern and southern Ukraine with more respect.

If the people in Crimea(or whereever in Ukraine) don't like the actions of current Ukr. gov. then they can vote against it in the next elections....
And who's saying that there's a problem with Crimea today.....:roll:
All this Russian crying,....once it was ours, now it's not,....better get used to it.....
No need to open a box of worms, there's a plenty areas in Russia, of wich can be sayd,....was once someone elses, now belongs to you....
Crimea belongs to Ukraine, time to accept it...

cmc

10-07-2009, 01:45 PM

Turkey is a big no-no, neither Bulgaria nor Romania have the facilities already avaliable, and Georgia...well rofl

I don't really care about the arguments here... just wanted to remind you that Romania already has more facilities than ANY military navy would need in a Black Sea harbor. The Constanta port is the 4th port in Europe and the biggest in Black Sea area. And a few kilometers away is the military airfield at Kogalniceanu which is already used as a US military base (but I can't say I'm a big fan of foreign military bases)...

Anyway, sorry for the off topic... carry on... p-)

davey

10-07-2009, 01:53 PM

I don't really care about the arguments here... just wanted to remind you that Romania already has more facilities than ANY military navy would need in a Black Sea harbor....................

Yes, but like it has Georgia, the US wants Ukraine as a puppet / satellite state. It already has Romania, so new bases there are not that attractive. This is not about acquiring much needed facilities. It is about projecting power and increasing influence, and reducing that of a major player and potential adversary in Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

Hast2

10-07-2009, 02:02 PM

If the people in Crimea(or whereever in Ukraine) don't like the actions of current Ukr. gov. then they can vote against it in the next elections....
And who's saying that there's a problem with Crimea today.....:roll:
All this Russian crying,....once it was ours, now it's not,....better get used to it.....
No need to open a box of worms, there's a plenty areas in Russia, of wich can be sayd,....was once someone elses, now belongs to you....
Crimea belongs to Ukraine, time to accept it...

Crimea "belongs" to Ukraine because Crimean people allow it. If Ukrainian government will play hard, they can say bye-bye Ukraine, since a whim of a dictator isn't legitimate claim.

Time to accept it...

Hast2

10-07-2009, 02:14 PM

When Afro-European said -

"took Crimea from Russia and gave it to Ukraine when he was the Soviet leader"

It should be evident that with Russia in my response I meant Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic from which ASSR Crimea was transferred to Ukrainian SSR.

Ok, now it's clearer. But Soviets have made another 16 or 17 ASSRs(yes, "made": "ok, let's create Checheno-Ingushskaya ASSR here and that ASSR there", ect, just like this), so what? How it is related?

tommy00

10-07-2009, 02:23 PM

Crimea "belongs" to Ukraine because Crimean people allow it. If Ukrainian government will play hard, they can say bye-bye Ukraine, since a whim of a dictator isn't legitimate claim
:roll:
Whim of a dictator ah....
Does it apply to Kaliningrad, Karelia, Kuriles and so on....
Or to a people in.....i don't know, whereever in Russia, if Russian gov. will play hard, they can say bye-bye to Russia....yourself understand the nonsense you write.....
If people don't like current goverment,....they can vote against it in elections,.....in Ukraine this possibility will arrive soon....
All this "Crimea belongs to Russia" nonsense,.....just personal problems of tub-thumpers who scream about it

AmaStrat

10-07-2009, 02:43 PM

Their lease ends in 2017, no? We'll have to wait and see until then whether it gets renewed or not.

Yea the lease ends, but I dont think Russia will let it go. Russia is expanding it's political and military reach around the world right now as it gained strength to do so. In my opinion if Russia continues to grow at a similar pace no way it will give up Sevastopol'.

Difool

10-07-2009, 02:51 PM

Crimea belongs to Ukraine, time to accept it...
Have you accepted belonging to the USSR as you had the choice?

AmaStrat

10-07-2009, 02:52 PM

Aren't the Russians building a new base in Russia, Novorossiyk, precisely because of the ambiguity revolving around the lease? What would be the pros/cons of having to move there?

If you look at the map of the Black Sea and the coasts around it, you'll see that Crimea with Sevastopol' at it's edge sticks out deep into Black Sea and close to entrances from Mediterranean Sea. It pretty much, in conflict scenario, gives Russia instant possession of half of the Black Sea. Port in Novorossiysk will cut that by a half.

It doesnt seem that Russia is serious about port in Novorossiysk, I wouldnt be surprised that it's a ruse.

Hast2

10-07-2009, 03:18 PM

:roll:
Whim of a dictator ah....
Does it apply to Kaliningrad, Karelia, Kuriles and so on....
Or to a people in.....i don't know, whereever in Russia, if Russian gov. will play hard, they can say bye-bye to Russia....yourself understand the nonsense you write.....
If people don't like current goverment,....they can vote against it in elections,.....in Ukraine this possibility will arrive soon....
All this "Crimea belongs to Russia" nonsense,.....just personal problems of tub-thumpers who scream about it

Kaliningrad, Karelia, Kuriles are gained in the wars. Don't go there. Ukraine got Crimea because of some whim. Without any soild reason.

Of course, people should decide. Do we have a case? Well, come back when you'll have one, then.

All this "Crimea belongs to Ukraine" nonsense,.....just personal problems of tub-thumpers who scream about it

Switek

10-07-2009, 03:31 PM

Ask a few innocent Iraqi's:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli: In what way invasion on Iraq is connected with NATO? :roll:

Switek

10-07-2009, 03:33 PM

Hypocrite as allways Switek. Btw the enemy during exercises in the Bundeswehr was called "Rotland", a country which invaded the east of Germany and we needed to defend our positions against this enemy. I guess German generals are maniacs too?

Yes, they are if they consider Polish armed forces as potential agresors... rofl

User_Name

10-07-2009, 03:34 PM

My answer to this tread:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/p_hosT5Hfe8

Switek

10-07-2009, 03:35 PM

Ask a few innocent Iraqi's:cantbeli::cantbeli::cantbeli:

Classic fail. Thank you... :roll:

Hast2

10-07-2009, 03:53 PM

My answer to this tread:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/p_hosT5Hfe8

Too harsh about Poland, ruined everything :-(

Mr.K

10-07-2009, 04:01 PM

Yes, they are if they consider Polish armed forces as potential agresors... rofl

Of course not, they consider you as their equals. rofl

Switek

10-07-2009, 04:04 PM

Of course not, they consider you as their equals. rofl Then Bundeswher must be in bad shape... what a pity... :-(

Derbedeu

10-07-2009, 04:50 PM

Yes, but like it has Georgia, the US wants Ukraine as a puppet / satellite state. It already has Romania, so new bases there are not that attractive. This is not about acquiring much needed facilities. It is about projecting power and increasing influence, and reducing that of a major player and potential adversary in Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

Oops. I keep forgetting, if you host a US base you're nothing but a puppet. Silly me. Japan, South Korea, Germany, UK, Italy, Turkey, and 30+ other countries are nothing more than puppets/satellites of the US. I suppose all of Russia's allies that have Russian bases, Armenia, Belarus, etc. are really nothing more than puppet states as well? :roll:

Mr.K

10-07-2009, 05:29 PM

Frutzel

10-07-2009, 05:37 PM

Yes, they are if they consider Polish armed forces as potential agresors... rofl

No need to act like a dumbass.Of course we didn't consider the Poles as a threat because they will never be one."Rotland" is Russland. It was just a scenario during exercises nothing more, so there is no need to cry about it like you did with the Russian exercise

JCR

10-07-2009, 05:43 PM

Actually after the end of the cold war, the enemy is now called "Orangeland"
(at least it was 1999)
roflrofl

So be careful Yushenko.

CPL Trevoga

10-07-2009, 05:49 PM

Russian - Ukraine tension: Wet dream of Polish shPany and mamalyzhnikov.
Just know one thing, we're always united to kick Your ass.

widi243

10-07-2009, 05:59 PM

Russian - Ukraine tension: Wet dream of Polish shPany and mamalyzhnikov.
Just know one thing, we're always united to kick Your ass.

It's not wet dreams but just facts but maybe you're to blind to see it.
And It's not Poles complain but Russians. You must deal with thart Ukriaine's authorithies could be NATO friendly or Russia friendly but they have theirs own national intrest and won't devote it to make some Russins happy.

Xithos

10-07-2009, 06:02 PM

Mr.K

10-07-2009, 06:11 PM

I've been noticing a lot of conflicts in Europe involve Russia trying to push their influence on their old soviet republics and the soviet republics saying "Screw you!" (well maybe something a little less vulgar). It just seems like to me that Russia is trying to find reasons to invade their old soviet republics to gain small amounts of territory here and their. I may be wrong though.

Which republics? Except Ukraine and Georgia, where the current head of state bows down to the United States, and the 3 bitter balts which republics are saying "Screw you?" Kazakhstan,Uzbekisan, Kyrgizstan,Tajikistan,Turkmenistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Belarus have good relations with Russia.

Oh I forgot Moldova ,sorry.

What would be the point of "invading old soviet republics to gain small amounts of territory here and there?"

1. Invade undevelopped part of a ex-soviet republic
2. ????
3. Profit?

CPL Trevoga

10-07-2009, 06:13 PM

It's not wet dreams but just facts but maybe you're to blind to see it.
And It's not Poles complain but Russians. You must deal with thart Ukriaine's authorithies could be NATO friendly or Russia friendly but they have theirs own national intrest and won't devote it to make some Russins happy.

Spoken like a true son of Poland. You next time just post, "I'm from Poland." We pretty much know your position on issues.

Too bad you can't understand Russia. This clip was funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/p_hosT5Hfe8

Xithos

10-07-2009, 06:22 PM

domokun

10-07-2009, 07:33 PM

Which republics? Except Ukraine and Georgia, where the current head of state bows down to the United States, and the 3 bitter balts which republics are saying "Screw you?" Kazakhstan,Uzbekisan, Kyrgizstan,Tajikistan,Turkmenistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Belarus have good relations with Russia.

How many of former allies of Soviet Union are now allies of Russia?

NATO membership is pretty popular amongst former Soviet allies. it's probably related somehow to tens or hundreds of thousands deaths caused by forced labor that followed "liberation". None of Soviet allies in Europe were that by their own choice. Instead they became soviet allies at gun point, being occupied by the Red Army is good motivator.

Back to Ukraine. Russia has two advantages in keeping Crimea bases. Current corrupt bastards that were installed after forged elections have only one credible opposition, those Russian sponsored corrupt bastards that didn't get to power due to so called orange revolution. Other thing is energy, it probably can be used to influence Ukrainian politics to extend lease of naval bases.

Only good thing for Ukraine that comes from bases is that it can be used as bargain chip in negotiations about gas deliveries. Other than that it's as beneficial to Ukraine as Guantanamo is to Cuba.

CPL Trevoga

10-07-2009, 07:51 PM

Kutuzov

10-07-2009, 08:19 PM

Crimea was Conquered by Catherine The Great , Suvorov and Ushakov from Turks it is ours end of story.

emind

10-07-2009, 08:39 PM

Crimea was Conquered by Catherine The Great , Suvorov and Ushakov from Turks it is ours end of story.
True. Kutuzov started his epic rise there too. After getting shot on the head and surviving it for the first time and then another one. A great Russian hero :).

SniperRu

10-07-2009, 09:28 PM

http://imgur.com/gUUCZ.jpg

too many Russian soldiers fell for this city

Kutuzov

10-07-2009, 09:46 PM

True. Kutuzov started his epic rise there too. After getting shot on the head and surviving it for the first time and then another one. A great Russian hero :).

:) I am well aware of Generalissimo Kutuzov.

void

10-07-2009, 10:17 PM

:) I am well aware of Generalissimo Kutuzov.

Kutuzov was never a Generalissimo, I think you're mistaking him for Suvorov.

Robert.V

10-07-2009, 10:18 PM

http://imgur.com/gUUCZ.jpg

too many Russian soldiers fell for this city

The black marines no ?

LEGEND

10-07-2009, 10:28 PM

too many Russian soldiers fell for this city

The painting depicts Soviet soldiers.

Robert.V

10-07-2009, 10:45 PM

The painting depicts Soviet soldiers.

Which and this might shock you .... had russian soldiers in them. =O

Russia has fought for Crimea plenty of times. And trully a lot of blood was shed for it.

Mr.K

10-07-2009, 10:47 PM

How many of former allies of Soviet Union are now allies of Russia?

NATO membership is pretty popular amongst former Soviet allies. it's probably related somehow to tens or hundreds of thousands deaths caused by forced labor that followed "liberation". None of Soviet allies in Europe were that by their own choice. Instead they became soviet allies at gun point, being occupied by the Red Army is good motivator.

Hello Finn, welcome to the thread, but it's not about "soviet allies", Soviet Allies, being broke and everything, sold themselves to the highest bidder.
Again this is about Crimea, and former soviet republics to a certain extent.

Back to Ukraine. Russia has two advantages in keeping Crimea bases. Current corrupt bastards that were installed after forged elections have only one credible opposition, those Russian sponsored corrupt bastards that didn't get to power due to so called orange revolution. Other thing is energy, it probably can be used to influence Ukrainian politics to extend lease of naval bases.
Right, and "pro-western" politicians, are crystal clear transparent and are working for the good of the people. Life sure is amazing since the orange revolution, all of the sudden a 180 turn was made.

As for sponsorships here is a little quote from wiki on orange revolution.
"Activists in each of these movements were funded and trained in tactics of political organization and nonviolent resistance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_resistance) by a coalition of Western pollsters and professional consultants funded by a range of Western government and non-government agencies. According to The Guardian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian), these include the U.S. State Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_State) and USAID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Agency_for_International_Development) along with the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Institute_for_International_Affairs), the International Republican Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Republican_Institute), the Bilderberg Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group), the NGO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization) Freedom House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_House) and George Soros's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros) Open Society Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Society_Institute). The National Endowment for Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy), a foundation supported by the U.S. government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States), has supported non-governmental democracy-building efforts in Ukraine since 1988.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution#cite_note-15) Writings on nonviolent struggle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_resistance) by Gene Sharp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Sharp) formed the strategic basis of the student campaigns."

Only good thing for Ukraine that comes from bases is that it can be used as bargain chip in negotiations about gas deliveries. Other than that it's as beneficial to Ukraine as Guantanamo is to Cuba.

You're forgetting the tourist industry and the money it generates, but that's ok. As for gas deliveries, market dictates the prices.
So the government of Ukraine which embraces western ways should respect that.

Also, in your next posts in this thread please avoid bringing the favorite and only subject MP.net Finns like to talk about :Winter war.

Thank you.

Snoshi

10-07-2009, 11:17 PM

Russian - Ukraine tension: Wet dream of Polish shPany and mamalyzhnikov.
Just know one thing, we're always united to kick Your ass.

Who are united? The americans? :roll:

LEGEND

10-07-2009, 11:27 PM

Which and this might shock you .... had russian soldiers in them. =O

And Ukrainians and lots of other nationalities...

Russia has fought for Crimea plenty of times. And trully a lot of blood was shed for it.
By the same logic, how many Germans died in Konegsburg? Are you advocating Crimean cessation and joining it to Russia? What the current Ukrainian government is doing with the language laws is counterproductive, but stirring nationalistic movements on both sides is absurd and will not lead either side to a better future.

Robert.V

10-07-2009, 11:38 PM

And Ukrainians and lots of other nationalities...

By the same logic, how many Germans died in Konegsburg? Are you advocating Crimean cessation and joining it to Russia? What the current Ukrainian government is doing with the language laws is counterproductive, but stirring nationalistic movements on both sides is absurd and will not lead either side to a better future.

Im not saying that because Russian soldiers died for it throughout history Crimea belongs to Russia.

Honestly I don't know to whom Crimea belongs the history is complex on that subject.

Snoshi

10-07-2009, 11:41 PM

Im not saying that because Russian soldiers died for it throughout history Crimea belongs to Russia.

Honestly I don't know to whom Crimea belongs the history is complex on that subject.

Crimea (****ounced /kraɪˈmiːə/) or the Autonomous Republic of Crimea (Ukrainian: Крим, Автономна Республіка Крим; Russian: Крым, Автономная Республика Крым,Avtonomnaja Respublika Krym; Crimean Tatar: Qırım, Qırım Muhtar Cumhuriyeti) is the only autonomous republic of Ukraine. It is located on the northern coast of the Black Sea, occupying a peninsula of the same name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

Kutuzov

10-08-2009, 12:10 AM

Kutuzov was never a Generalissimo, I think you're mistaking him for Suvorov.

I believe he was after 1812 let me double check, definitely red somewhere or he was mentioned by that title.

Mango Madness

10-08-2009, 12:42 AM

My answer to this tread:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/p_hosT5Hfe8

lol @ Poland comment, ouch

Afro-European

10-08-2009, 03:51 AM

I highly doubt that the Russian Black Sea Fleet 'll be leaving Crimea anytime soon as long as Yushchenko pursues Nato integration.

shoora

10-08-2009, 04:40 AM

Give me a break! rofl. The sad thing is that even quite intelligent Russians buy this cheap propaganda crap from their government. Russia has nothing to offer what can't be bought in normal economic trade. No war is really needed

Do you know what scenarios were trained during latest joint Russian-Belorussian exercises "The West"? Your generals must live on another planet...
Who say of war and who is paranoiac, after all?
But you did not answer my question - why after "empire of evil" gone for good, competitive military pact did not dissolve itself. It just gets bigger.
And why exactly Russia must trust YOU, but not their eyes.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SV2T3EOrO8w/SjztVftGsDI/AAAAAAAAAeY/RsEHNRRDWCk/s1600/Ship%2BPhoto%2BKLAKRING.JPG
USS Klakring Arrives In Port Sevastopol, March 2009

I have same "cheap" propaganda as you do - BBC, CNN, NPR, ******* etc. Plus some analytic articles from USA, Russia, England, France, Germany, China. (Sorry, nothing from eastern and central Europe come even close to the definition of "analytics" for this matter)
I am just intelligent enough to recognize that big part of Russian actions in past 6 years is not unprovoked aggression, but predictable reaction. And, for russians, this is 100% truth.
Russia observes ongoing reduction of their zone of strategic interests. Funny enough, these words sounds pretty neutral when press applies them to US no matter how far this "zone" is from US coast, and strongly negative otherwise. And this process discomforting them very much.
You may think, you can ignore it? I don't think so. Of course if you don't want to be sorry later. it's just safer to take it into account. Even if this is 100% medically proven paranoia case. Remember the joke - "Rhinoceros have a very bad vision. But, considering his weight and size, this is not his problem".

BTW, I am not russian. And when you mentioned "my generals", I got really confused. Actually, my generals are trying hard to get Bin Laden from place, where their immediate predecessor put him exactly 30 years ago to fight for free world.

You still believe, that geopolitics is something _you_ can understand?

shoora

10-08-2009, 05:06 AM

Krushchev was not Ukrainian, but Russian. And Crimea was only part of Russia as autonomous soviet socialist republic.
Kruschev - russian, what did you smoke today?
Then, Hitler was russian too. And, most certainly, Stalin as well.
I just love historic "science" of limitrophe countries!:) Your history is so unpredictable.

You'll be surprised - Vladimir Lenin is #23 in Great Ukrainans list
(http://greatukrainians.com.ua/top_sto/2/) and Kruschev is #93 (http://greatukrainians.com.ua/top_sto/9/).

shoora

10-08-2009, 05:23 AM

Oops. I keep forgetting, if you host a US base you're nothing but a puppet. Silly me. Japan, South Korea, Germany, UK, Italy, Turkey, and 30+ other countries are nothing more than puppets/satellites of the US. I suppose all of Russia's allies that have Russian bases, Armenia, Belarus, etc. are really nothing more than puppet states as well? :roll:
Up to certain dergee it is true. At least definition of puppet in international affairs worked pretty well most of them. Especially, when those countries have no personal interests in the topic. Coordinated position of countries is very common practice in UN.
BTW, you wrongly put UK in this list - they are not puppets. Puppet masters, may be.

Switek

10-08-2009, 05:35 AM

Who say of war and who is paranoiac, after all?
But you did not answer my question - why after "empire of evil" gone for good, competitive military pact did not dissolve itself. It just gets bigger.
And why exactly Russia must trust YOU, but not their eyes.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SV2T3EOrO8w/SjztVftGsDI/AAAAAAAAAeY/RsEHNRRDWCk/s1600/Ship%2BPhoto%2BKLAKRING.JPG
USS Klakring Arrives In Port Sevastopol, March 2009

I have same "cheap" propaganda as you do - BBC, CNN, NPR, ******* etc. Plus some analytic articles from USA, Russia, England, France, Germany, China. (Sorry, nothing from eastern and central Europe come even close to the definition of "analytics" for this matter)
I am just intelligent enough to recognize that big part of Russian actions in past 6 years is not unprovoked aggression, but predictable reaction. And, for russians, this is 100% truth.
Russia observes ongoing reduction of their zone of strategic interests. Funny enough, these words sounds pretty neutral when press applies them to US no matter how far this "zone" is from US coast, and strongly negative otherwise. And this process discomforting them very much.
You may think, you can ignore it? I don't think so. Of course if you don't want to be sorry later. it's just safer to take it into account. Even if this is 100% medically proven paranoia case. Remember the joke - "Rhinoceros have a very bad vision. But, considering his weight and size, this is not his problem".

BTW, I am not russian. And when you mentioned "my generals", I got really confused. Actually, my generals are trying hard to get Bin Laden from place, where their immediate predecessor put him exactly 30 years ago to fight for free world.

You still believe, that geopolitics is something _you_ can understand?

Your whole post proves that you have no clue about geopolitcs... and changes which have happened for the last 20 years... Russia has fallen to second leauge of world poweres and dramaticaly struggle to keep its current position of the country comparable to France, Mexico or Brasil. The keys to underestand it are inside Russia, where discouragement of Russian leaders for vital modernisation of Russian economy and society is a main factor not outside. The problem is that whatever Russia Strong crewmen says Russia is sinking, very slowly but is.

Mango Madness

10-08-2009, 05:43 AM

Kruschev - russian, what did you smoke today?
Then, Hitler was russian too. And, most certainly, Stalin as well.
I just love historic "science" of limitrophe countries!:) Your history is so unpredictable.

You'll be surprised - Vladimir Lenin is #23 in Great Ukrainans list
(http://greatukrainians.com.ua/top_sto/2/) and Kruschev is #93 (http://greatukrainians.com.ua/top_sto/9/).

Stepan Bandera, #3, sweet.

Papenheims

10-08-2009, 05:53 AM

Kruschev - russian, what did you smoke today?

Maybe Kruschev himself can tell better?
From his memoirs. http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/HRUSHEW/wospominaniya1.txt_Piece40.09

Я просил не посылать меня, потому что не подготовлен к тому, чтобы занять такой пост. Сталин начал меня подбадривать. Тогда я ответил: "Кроме того, существует и национальный вопрос. Я человек русский; хотя и понимаю украинский язык, но не так, как нужно руководителю. Говорить на украинском я совсем не могу,

Translation - Then I answered: " Besides, there is also a national issue. I am a Russian man; I understand the Ukrainian language, but not in the level required for leadership. I can't speak Ukranian at all.

Difool

10-08-2009, 06:08 AM

The keys to underestand it are inside Russia, where discouragement of Russian leaders for vital modernisation of Russian economy and society is a main factor not outside. The problem is that whatever Russia Strong crewmen says Russia is sinking, very slowly but is.
I would say it's on the edge of becoming a super-power, a sinking ship or something in between. Regarding the current global situation the next years are vital and the demand for resources is the key.

Besides, there is also a national issue. I am a Russian man; I understand the Ukrainian language, but not in the level required for leadership.
That's why he would have thought "I take the Crimea from one SSR to the other. But it still is Russia anyway".
He never thought of the latest Ukrainian politics.

I can't speak Ukranian at all.
I know a lot of Ukrainians and Belorussians who would say that from themselves.
The Ukrainian language seems to be a local dialekt inside the Ukraine.:)

Twelve

10-08-2009, 06:21 AM

Russia is sinking, very slowly but is

Russia wont be among the top 10 economies of the world today in just within a decade if that was the case. What if a hater for instance, declared that Poland is sinking, would it come true just because a disillusioned idiot stated it? Even Hitler once stated that "We have only to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down" But did the USSR came crashing down? No.

Maybe Kruschev himself can tell better?

Any well foreign-financed institutions can make fake materials about people claiming fantasies that weren't really true.

Switek

10-08-2009, 06:35 AM

I would say it's on the edge of becoming a super-power, a sinking ship or something in between. Regarding the current global situation the next years are vital and the demand for resources is the key.

In fact Russia is self hostage because of their plenty of resources. Withouth them Russia would be forced to make real economic modernisation...

Papenheims

10-08-2009, 06:38 AM

Any well foreign-financed institutions can make fake materials about people claiming fantasies that weren't really true.
Lol, Do you really believe that some foreign financiers are really interested in writting fake memoirs of Nikita Krushchev? Interesting who are they - CIA, Mossad, George Sorros, Free masons, Templar Order?

Switek

10-08-2009, 06:51 AM

I would say it's on the edge of becoming a super-power, a sinking ship or something in between. Regarding the current global situation the next years are vital and the demand for resources is the key.

Those plenty of resources are, the main Russian, weaknesses in long terms... IMHO

Twelve

10-08-2009, 07:22 AM

Lol, Do you really believe that some foreign financiers are really interested in writting fake memoirs of Nikita Krushchev? Interesting who are they - CIA, Mossad, George Sorros, Free masons, Templar Order?If they can do it then why not? Krushchev was after all a prominent political figure. Oh and since when did the Free masons or the Templars became a foreign secret service? Lol your sarcasm is very cheap

Papenheims

10-08-2009, 07:32 AM

If they can do it then why not? Krushchev was after all a prominent political figure. Oh and since when did the Free masons or the Templars became a foreign secret service? Lol your sarcasm is very cheap

Maybe just because he was prominent figure isn't reason enough for foreign financiers to fake his memoirs and publish in internet library? And the line in memoirs where he calls himself Russian - what does it going to change?

Mango Madness

10-08-2009, 07:45 AM

I would say it's on the edge of becoming a super-power, a sinking ship or something in between.

My thoughts exactly, you articulated it beautifully.

Twelve

10-08-2009, 08:17 AM

Maybe just because he was prominent figure isn't reason enough for foreign financiers to fake his memoirs and publish in internet library? And the line in memoirs where he calls himself Russian - what does it going to change?

Of course its not as if he is a priority target for them, but its always convenient to cause confusion about someone else's biography especially in persons like Krushchev. Defaming the name and reputation of past historical leaders had been the practice of many rival nations. its not an Impossibility.

Frutzel

10-08-2009, 09:03 AM

Your whole post proves that you have no clue about geopolitcs... and changes which have happened for the last 20 years... Russia has fallen to second leauge of world poweres and dramaticaly struggle to keep its current position of the country comparable to France, Mexico or Brasil. The keys to underestand it are inside Russia, where discouragement of Russian leaders for vital modernisation of Russian economy and society is a main factor not outside. The problem is that whatever Russia Strong crewmen says Russia is sinking, very slowly but is.

Still no answer to your previous BS?As expected from you Switek :roll:

Switek

10-08-2009, 09:06 AM

Still no answer to your previous BS?As expected from you Switek :roll:
:cantbeli:
Said troll ...

Frutzel

10-08-2009, 09:14 AM

:cantbeli:
Said troll ...

Sure it's me whos trolling and it was me who claimed that the generals are maniacs because they had this "west" scenarion during the exercise. Goddamn you are laughable man

Afro-European

10-08-2009, 09:21 AM

Sure it's me whos trolling and it was me who claimed that the generals are maniacs because they had this "west" scenarion during the exercise. Goddamn you are laughable man
Don't waste your precious time with him.We all know his position concerning Russia.

Switek

10-08-2009, 09:44 AM

Don't waste your precious time with him.We all know his position concerning Russia.

Your problem is that you don't know what is my attitude toward Russia. p-)

Switek

10-08-2009, 09:46 AM

Sure it's me whos trolling and it was me who claimed that the generals are maniacs because they had this "west" scenarion during the exercise. Goddamn you are laughable man

If you knew what exactly was the scenario you'd probably understand but this is when you have no clue what you're talking about. You judge my posts by my person perspective... This hate toward me kills your common sense... :roll:

Universal_Soldier

10-08-2009, 09:49 AM

^^ is that your granny or is that you?

Satorius

10-08-2009, 10:21 AM

Which republics? Except Ukraine and Georgia, where the current head of state bows down to the United States, and the 3 bitter balts which republics are saying "Screw you?" Kazakhstan,Uzbekisan, Kyrgizstan,Tajikistan,Turkmenistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Belarus have good relations with Russia.

Azerbaijan wants to bypass Russia in transporting Caspian oil and gas to European consumers. The RF's relations with Belarus exist only because Lukashenko receives contributions from Moscow but even they are marked by incessant inter-state scandals and tensions.

Uzbekisan and Kyrgizstan allowed the US to set up American bases in their territories.

Kazakhstan where the proportion of Russians is much higher than in Ukraine makes everyone pass Kazakh language exam to get any decent job even outside state apparatus. Why don't Russian patriots yell about the discrimnation of Russians in Kazakhstan and other Central Asian republics? The answer is simple those central Asian regimes are Kremlin buddies and gas/oil business partners. So Russian Mass Media avoid any critics of those regimes and states. Turkmenistan is another marvelous example of Russian buddy. In that state thousands of Russians were deprived of their property and kicked out of the country during Putin's presidency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkmenistan while Russian Mass Media went on bashing Ukraine and Baltic states as terribly anti-Russian fascist states.

On the whole the Russian patriotic specimen see only what Kremlin wants them to see even if the picture of reality proposed by Kremlin does not hold any water.

Satorius

10-08-2009, 10:33 AM

Difool

10-08-2009, 11:08 AM

Why don't Russian patriots yell about the discrimnation of Russians in Kazakhstan and other Central Asian republics? The answer is simple those central Asian regimes are Kremlin buddies and gas/oil business partners. So Russian Mass Media avoid any critics of those regimes and states. Turkmenistan is another marvelous example of Russian buddy. In that state thousands of Russians were deprived of their property and kicked out of the country during Putin's presidency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkmenistan while Russian Mass Media went on bashing Ukraine and Baltic states as terribly anti-Russian fascist states.

On the whole the Russian patriotic specimen see only what Kremlin wants them to see even if the picture of reality proposed by Kremlin does not hold any water.

That's an interesting point you have got there. I guess the Russians that had been thrown out of countries like Azerbaijan see no common base for verbal discussions. That's different with the historic brother-state of Ukraine.

Satorius

10-08-2009, 12:11 PM

That's an interesting point you have got there. I guess the Russians that had been thrown out of countries like Azerbejdjan see no common base for verbal discussions. That's different with the historic brother-state of Ukraine.

Don't know about Azerbaijan, it did not have significant Russian community unlike the Central asian republics.

As to Ukraine the Russian patriots (or poztriots as they are often called) turned it into the object of their chauvenist masturbation and morbid fantasies. You can clearly observe it in this forum. The Russian poztriots usually deny even the notion of separate Ukrainian nation, don't tolerate the idea of Ukrainian state, declare everything Ukrainian to be anti-Russian conspiracy invented by Austrians/Germans/Poles//Jews/Americans etc. to destroy Russia. In fact, in their claims they surpass even the most insane German Nazis who recognized the existance of the separate Ukrainian ethnicity and language at least.

Universal_Soldier

10-08-2009, 12:25 PM

Hast2

10-08-2009, 01:21 PM

Don't know about Azerbaijan, it did not have significant Russian community unlike the Central asian republics.

As to Ukraine the Russian patriots (or poztriots as they are often called) turned it into the object of their chauvenist masturbation and morbid fantasies. You can clearly observe it in this forum. The Russian poztriots usually deny even the notion of separate Ukrainian nation, don't tolerate the idea of Ukrainian state, declare everything Ukrainian to be anti-Russian conspiracy invented by Austrians/Germans/Poles//Jews/Americans etc. to destroy Russia. In fact, in their claims they surpass even the most insane German Nazis who recognized the existance of the separate Ukrainian ethnicity and language at least.

I have yet to see(or didn't pay attention, since idiots are minority here, fortunately) anyone claiming that here and you say "can clearly observe". You're full of... imagination...
I'll help you to grasp reality. Basically, it have nothing to to with Ukraine itself, but with current Ukrainian government, because :

1. It makes troubles for Russian-speaking population and this population is as native as Ukrainian.
2. It tries to bring country into Nato against people's will.
3. It play a$$ with gaz, Russian base in Sevastopol(stupid, meaningless "inspections"), ect.

That's it. Of course, i don't deny "poztriots", or whatever, existence, but any country have them and btw, i'll put Ukrainian "poztriots" in retardness way higher that Russian ones any time.

So go be an aggressive Ukr somewhere else.

ATA

10-08-2009, 01:32 PM

is there country in Europe that Russia wouldn't have dispute with in the past or arising now regarding on what it is meant not to be Russia (or Russian Federation)?-1
are Russians happy to national identity' less?-2
is there any benefit to Russians out of new re'expansion in to ex-soviet territories?-3

Satorius

10-08-2009, 02:13 PM

I have yet to see(or didn't pay attention, since idiots are minority here, fortunately) anyone claiming that here and you say "can clearly observe". You're full of... imagination...
I'll help you to grasp reality. Basically, it have nothing to to with Ukraine itself, but with current Ukrainian government, because :

It has nothing to do even with current Ukrainian government as all the previous ones just did the same about what you woe though perhaps a bit more effectively.

1. It makes troubles for Russian-speaking population and this population is as native as Ukrainian.No troubles. I am frequently Russian-speaking myself. "All the troubles with Russian-speaking population" are invented by Kremlin propaganda and repeated by Russian chauvenists who turn a blind eye to the discrimination of Russians in the countries where it really exists just because their leaders are kremlin buddies and kremlin Mass Media barks on others.

2. It tries to bring country into Nato against people's will.There have been no official invitation to join from the NATO and will be none. Bringing Ukraine into NATO is your morbid fantasies. How can one bring a state into the organization against the will of the organization?

3. It play a$$ with gaz, Russian base in Sevastopol(stupid, meaningless "inspections"), ect."Stupid" inspections were stipulated in the agreements. RF's Navy just temporary rent some areas and facilities for base and don't own them. I don't see why it is a problem for you.

That's it. Of course, i don't deny "poztriots", or whatever, existence, but any country have them and btw, i'll put Ukrainian "poztriots" in retardness way higher that Russian ones any time.You forget that according to the Russian pozriotric position you try to represent there are only Ukronazis and fascists versus Russian patriots.

So go be an aggressive Ukr somewhere else.Oh, I disturbed the fantasy world of Russian patriotic idyll.

asch

10-08-2009, 06:45 PM

Satorius, can you throw us some facts about your background?

Derbedeu

10-08-2009, 07:00 PM

Just out of curiosity asch, what does one's background have to do with the merits of one's arguments?

asch

10-08-2009, 07:11 PM

Just out of curiosity asch, what does one's background have to do with the merits of one's arguments?
well, man often don't back his facts and only stating some things he supposedly well know. so it's a very definitive to understand what history he have, regarding his posts trustfullness.

Ebana Mat

10-08-2009, 07:52 PM

^^^^^

I read this as paranoiac .... :|

in lighter mp.net version: What stuff did you smoke today?

;)

Nothing beats Polish mushrooms. ;)

Hast2

10-08-2009, 08:48 PM

That's an interesting point you have got there. I guess the Russians that had been thrown out of countries like Azerbaijan see no common base for verbal discussions. That's different with the historic brother-state of Ukraine.

There are Russians(or rather Russian-speaking) who came in Ukraine from Russia, but there is Russian-speaking people who lived there for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, as long as any Ukrainian. Longer,actually - original "Ukraine" was smaller than today and they just woke-up one day in Ukraine, so to speak.
So they are genuine natives.

2Satorius
I didn't explain myself well : What i mean is there's no such things here what you described and i in my turn described "real" complaints, in my opinion. I don't want to argue about them.

DRA

10-08-2009, 10:13 PM

Wow, a few dozens of commies and a few other clowns waving their flags. BBC, CNN, NPR, ******* should have made it their top story of the month just like the Kremlin Mass Media. The headlines should have sounded like " anti-Banderite and anti-American uprising in Crimea".

From another thread.....

Just to illustrate the point about what the locals think about Ukraine:

The Day of the Ukrainian navy in Sevastopl' (couple of weeks ago). Btw that was the official state holiday with the Ukrainian President in town for it.
http://i042.radikal.ru/0907/cc/9c82f04385fa.jpg

Same location today (Russian Navy Day)
http://photofile.ru/photo/sipiko/96112990/xlarge/109481343.jpg

http://photofile.ru/photo/sipiko/96112990/xlarge/109481407.jpg

Feel the difference............

I think that the picture below pretty much sums up how the locals feel about the current Ukrainian administration and NATO

http://www.idiot.ru/images/134607711wv.jpg

Ebana Mat

10-08-2009, 11:07 PM

..."All the troubles with Russian-speaking population" are invented by Kremlin propaganda and repeated by Russian chauvenists who turn a blind eye to the discrimination of Russians in the countries where it really exists just because their leaders are kremlin buddies and kremlin Mass Media barks on others.

Right now you sound like propaganda boombox denouncing evil chouvinist russkies.

Snoshi

10-08-2009, 11:13 PM

well, man often don't back his facts and only stating some things he supposedly well know. so it's a very definitive to understand what history he have, regarding his posts trustfullness.

Asch, i just hope that you will apply the same standards to the "other" side too.. There are plenty of "Russians" on this forum who have probably not stepped in Russia since they were kids who claim pretty "radical" stuff.

eskachig

10-08-2009, 11:18 PM

From another thread.....
I think that the picture below pretty much sums up how the locals feel about the current Ukrainian administration and NATO

http://www.idiot.ru/images/134607711wv.jpg
Ok that's pretty sweet right there.

Ebana Mat

10-08-2009, 11:24 PM

Asch, i just hope that you will apply the same standards to the "other" side too.. There are plenty of "Russians" on this forum who have probably not stepped in Russia since they were kids who claim pretty "radical" stuff.

There are also those who don't even know where it is on the map, but they think they know all about it. Soon we'll mark 20 years of SU demise...20 f*cking years, and there are some who are still fighting it.

Snoshi

10-08-2009, 11:24 PM

Ebana Mat

10-08-2009, 11:28 PM

Nope thats how an organisation feel about NATO.. Read the small text at the bottom

You again...what about "same standards", huh? You can claim all "organizations" are just that - organizations, no matter where they are. At least they are honest about it and put their name on the poster.

eskachig

10-09-2009, 12:10 AM

There are also those who don't even know where it is on the map, but they think they know all about it. Soon we'll mark 20 years of SU demise...20 f*cking years, and there are some who are still fighting it.People aren't fighting the demise of the Soviet Union, people are conflicted about the best way to move forward, and about what is worth keeping from those days and what is not.

Ebana Mat

10-09-2009, 01:08 AM

^^^^
It came out 180 wrong. I was talking about anti-Russian sentiment, which is fanatical coming from some and no better or worse than any other anti-you-name-it.

Satorius

10-09-2009, 02:01 AM

From another thread.....

You posted the photos from other thread about Russian navy day. But the gatherings of people there were caused by the Russian navy show while Ukraine did not organize any that time. That's all. It had nothing to do with anti-NATO or anti-"banderite" demonstration. I would have probably attended that RF's show as well if I had been in Sevastopol then.

I think that the picture below pretty much sums up how the locals feel about the current Ukrainian administration and NATO

http://www.idiot.ru/images/134607711wv.jpgIt sums up that Ukraine has freedom of speech and even the RF's sponsored groups can freely place their anti-nato advertisements for the RF's money.

Difool

10-09-2009, 02:31 AM

It sums up that Ukraine has freedom of speech and even the RF's sponsored groups can freely place their anti-nato advertisements for the RF's money.
While Yushenko's election campaigns as well as the current Ukrainian government is sponsored by the Americans.

I don't like to discuss the latest IWF credits here, but they too are a tool for foreign policy to gain influence on the Ukraine.

Satorius

10-09-2009, 03:13 AM

There are Russians(or rather Russian-speaking) who came in Ukraine from Russia, but there is Russian-speaking people who lived there for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, as long as any Ukrainian.

Most of Muscovite-Russians came to Ukraine after Holodomor and WWII to replace the starved and killed Ukrainian population. All your hundreds and hundreds of years are rediculous. Muscovian tsardom changed it name to "Russia" in XVIII century to fit its expansionist political agenda. The Russian language come from Church Slavonic that is Bulgarian language that was used as the book language in Kievan Rus by priests after Christinisation. Ukrainian/Belarusian languages come mainly from local original Slavic varnaculars.
Even now Russian resemble Bulgarian more than any other language.

In Belarusian/Ukrainian languages people from Muscovia-"Russia" were called exclusively Moskali and not Russians. All the words with the root "Rus" refer only to the state of Kievan Rus in these two Slavic languages.

It is the fact that the bulk of the territory of the Russian Empire/USSR/present-day Russia has nothing to do with Kievan Rus and did not even border on it. The bulk of their terriory used to be the parts of Holden Horde. There was no such political entity in Kievan Rus as Muscovian principality/tsardom that was turned into Russian Empire later. No one heard about Moscow then. Muscovian tsardom was formed and gained its power under Mongols. How? By becoming Mongol tax-collector in the terrirory of Kievan Rus' principalities and robbing them for Golden Horde (of course not without stealing for itself). When the Golden Horde decayed and collapsed due to interior conflicts Moscow just started to reassemble a new Golden Horde with the center in Moscow(with temporarily relocation to St-Petersburg). The Russian Empire/USSR/the RF are just technologically upgraded versions of the Golden Horde.

Satorius

10-09-2009, 03:25 AM

While Yushenko's election campaigns as well as the current Ukrainian government is sponsored by the Americans.

Are you serious? Yushchenko's party had some of the richest Ukrainian oligarchs when he had his election campaign. Ukrainian oligarchs are the richest after Russian ones in Europe according to Forbes. Do you really believe that they did not have money and could not finance Yushchenko alone? How is the Ukrainian government sponsored by Americans? You mean financially? Give some facts to prove your statement otherwise you just make groundless allegations.

I don't like to discuss the latest IWF credits here, but they too are a tool for foreign policy to gain influence on the Ukraine.All the economic ties and transactions can be viewed as a tool of somebody's policy. One can say that the US is in the political slavery of China and Japan then.

Sumadinac

10-09-2009, 03:44 AM

Even now Russian resemble Bulgarian more than any other language.

No, it doesn't. Bulgarian is part of the south slavic languages, while Russian is part of the eastern slavic languages.

Difool

10-09-2009, 03:44 AM

Are you serious? Yushchenko's party had some of the richest Ukrainian oligarchs when he had his election campaign. Ukrainian oligarchs are the richest after Russian ones in Europe accpording to Forbes. Do you really believe that they did not have money and could not finance Yushchenko alone? How is the Ukrainian government sponsored by Americans? You mean financially? Give some facts to prove your statement otherwise you just make groundless allegations.

There is clear evidence that "Freedom House", "Open Society Institute" (George Soros) and other sponsored Yushenko's party. So did "Carnegie Endowment for International Peace", "National Endowment for Democracy" and "US Aid".
Just google for it.
The U.S. of A. sponsores "Democracy Projects". And here too Yushenko's lot been on the list.

Remember the last election of Boris Yeltsin? Money makes such things possible.

All the economic ties and transactions can be viewed as a tool of somebody's policy. One can say that the US is in the political slavery of China and Japan then.
The strength of that tool depends on the strength of other influences and powers of course.

dies irae

10-09-2009, 03:57 AM

^^ is that your granny or is that you?

Fail...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Edelman

Mango Madness

10-09-2009, 04:01 AM

Most of Muscovite-Russians came to Ukraine after Holodomor and WWII to replace the starved and killed Ukrainian population. All your hundreds and hundreds of years are rediculous. Muscovian tsardom changed it name to "Russia" in XVIII century to fit its expansionist political agenda. The Russian language come from Church Slavonic that is Bulgarian language that was used as the book language in Kievan Rus by priests after Christinisation. Ukrainian/Belarusian languages come mainly from local original Slavic varnaculars.
Even now Russian resemble Bulgarian more than any other language.

In Belarusian/Ukrainian languages people from Muscovia-"Russia" were called exclusively Moskali and not Russians. All the words with the root "Rus" refer only to the state of Kievan Rus in these two Slavic languages.

It is the fact that the bulk of the territory of the Russian Empire/USSR/present-day Russia has nothing to do with Kievan Rus and did not even border on it. The bulk of their terriory used to be the parts of Holden Horde. There was no such political entity in Kievan Rus as Muscovian principality/tsardom that was turned into Russian Empire later. No one heard about Moscow then. Muscovian tsardom was formed and gained its power under Mongols. How? By becoming Mongol tax-collector in the terrirory of Kievan Rus' principalities and robbing them for Golden Horde (of course not without stealing for itself). When the Golden Horde decayed and collapsed due to interior conflicts Moscow just started to reassemble a new Golden Horde with the center in Moscow(with temporarily relocation to St-Petersburg). The Russian Empire/USSR/the RF are just technologically upgraded versions of the Golden Horde.

Russians are "Moskali", Russians are just technologically upgraded mongols, nice....

Newsflash - Rurik, the viking warrior who established the Rurik Dynasty that ruled Kievan Rus' and then Russia until Ivan the Terrible, was elected ruler first in NOVGOROD in 860/862, THEN his successor's extended Novgorod's authority to Kiev. Kievan Rus' is acknowledged to be the precursor state to both Russia/Belarus/Ukraine and after Kievan Rus' distintegrated there there was never any Ukraine or Belarus nation, only a Russian nation.

Here is a map of Kievan Rus in the 11th century. 80% of the cities are located present-day Russia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Kievan_Rus_en.jpg

Satorius

10-09-2009, 04:15 AM

There is clear evidence that "Freedom House", "Open Society Institute" (George Soros) and other sponsored Yushenko's party. So did "Carnegie Endowment for International Peace", "National Endowment for Democracy" and "US Aid".
Just google for it.
The U.S. of A. sponsores "Democracy Projects". And here too Yushenko's lot been on the list.

Actually there are no evidence. All the mentioned organization openly operate throughout the world including Russia. Perhaps, it sponsors Putin-Medvedev regime. Or perhaps they sponsors nearly all the governments in the world then?

Yushchenko was elected significantly due to dirty, idiotic and aggressive RF's propagandist campaign for Yanukovich that added lots of points to Yushchenko.

Remember the last election of Boris Yeltsin? Money makes such things possible.

Yeltsin was supported by all the Russian oligarchs and RF's bureaucracy just like his political son Putin. You just repeat false conspiracy theories.

Kak

10-09-2009, 04:18 AM

Most of Muscovite-Russians came to Ukraine after Holodomor and WWII to replace the starved and killed Ukrainian population. All your hundreds and hundreds of years are rediculous. Muscovian tsardom changed it name to "Russia" in XVIII century to fit its expansionist political agenda. The Russian language come from Church Slavonic that is Bulgarian language that was used as the book language in Kievan Rus by priests after Christinisation. Ukrainian/Belarusian languages come mainly from local original Slavic varnaculars.
Even now Russian resemble Bulgarian more than any other language.

In Belarusian/Ukrainian languages people from Muscovia-"Russia" were called exclusively Moskali and not Russians. All the words with the root "Rus" refer only to the state of Kievan Rus in these two Slavic languages.

It is the fact that the bulk of the territory of the Russian Empire/USSR/present-day Russia has nothing to do with Kievan Rus and did not even border on it. The bulk of their terriory used to be the parts of Holden Horde. There was no such political entity in Kievan Rus as Muscovian principality/tsardom that was turned into Russian Empire later. No one heard about Moscow then. Muscovian tsardom was formed and gained its power under Mongols. How? By becoming Mongol tax-collector in the terrirory of Kievan Rus' principalities and robbing them for Golden Horde (of course not without stealing for itself). When the Golden Horde decayed and collapsed due to interior conflicts Moscow just started to reassemble a new Golden Horde with the center in Moscow(with temporarily relocation to St-Petersburg). The Russian Empire/USSR/the RF are just technologically upgraded versions of the Golden Horde.

You're Ukrainian correct? With all due respect, I just don't get it. Because of this mentality, a single nation, the successor to the Rus', with more potential than even China is forever gone. I think that's one of the saddest national stories in history.

If you're not Ukrainian, then I guess that message isn't directed at you, just a general thought I had.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kievan-rus-1015-1113-%28en%29.png

Satorius

10-09-2009, 04:23 AM

Russians are "Moskali", Russians are just technologically upgraded mongols, nice....

Newsflash - Rurik, the viking warrior who established the Rurik Dynasty that ruled Kievan Rus' and then Russia until Ivan the Terrible, established himself first in NOVGOROD in 860/862, THEN his successor's extended Novgorod's authority to Kiev. Kievan Rus' is acknowledged to be the precursor state to both Russia/Belarus/Ukraine and after Kievan Rus' distintegrated there there was never any Ukraine or Belarus nation, only a Russian nation.

Here is a map of Kievan Rus in the 11th century. 80% of the cities are located present-day Russia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Kievan_Rus_en.jpg

Six out of 12 Kievan Rus principalities were located in Ukraine, two in Belarus, 4 in present day Russia. Most of people lived in the country-side then. Most of Kievan Rus population lived in more Southern, warmer and fertile lands that are present-day Ukraine/Belarus. You are right that Kievan Rus dynasty and the word "Rus" is of Scandinavian origin. But you should also understand that Rus did not signify any ethnicity then or later. It was the name of the state derived from Scandinavian dysnasty.

The Muscovite-"Russian" ethnicity was gradually formed as the result of inter-breeding between Slavs and Ugro-Finns plus Turcik ethnic influences while Belarusians and Ukrainain ethnicities are mainly Slavic.

The 9th century ethnic composition of the region.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Muromian-map.png

Difool

10-09-2009, 04:29 AM

You just repeat false conspiracy theories.
Aha! Then please tell me what sources you have got to mark them as false conspiracy theories.
You are not by chance Yushchenko's book keeper, are you?

Mango Madness

10-09-2009, 04:56 AM

Six out of 12 Kievan Rus principalities were located in Ukraine, two in Belarus, 4 in present day Russia. Most of Kievan Rus population lived in more Southern, warmer and fertile lands that are present-day Ukraine/Belarus. You are right that Kievan Rus dynasty and the word "Rus" is of Scandinavian origin. But you should also understand that Rus did not signify any ethnicity then or later. It was the name of the state derived from Scandinavian dysnasty.

The Muscovite-"Russian" ethnicity was gradually formed as the result of inter-breeding between Slavs and Ugro-Finns plus Turcik ethnic influences while Belarusians and Ukrainain ethnicities are mainly Slavic.

The 9th century ethnic composition of the region.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Muromian-map.png

What is your point, that map shows that Novgorod as well as the other Kievan Rus' cities were slavic. Russia assimilated foreign populations, they did the vikings that came with Rurik and they did with the Finnic tribes.

Your original racist rant has no merit. What was your point, that Kievan Rus was solely "Ukrainian"? It's an established fact that Kievan Rus' was the precsursor to Russian AND Ukrainian AND Belarusian ethnicities. During Kievan Rus' time these present-day ethnicities were all one ethnicity. In fact, Rurik first was elected ruler of NOVGOROD then his successor's absorbed Kiev years later.

Kievan Rus', which was the ancestor of all 3 present-day east Slavic peoples, ultimately disintegrated and the lands were divided into many small feudal states. The most powerful successor state to Kievan Rus' was Moscow (Russians), which served as the main force in the Russian (Kievan Rus') reunification process and independence struggle against the Golden Horde. Moscow gradually reunified the surrounding Russian (Kievan Rus') principalities and came to dominate the cultural and political legacy of Kievan Rus'. There was never any "Ukraine" in this equation. Since Kievan Rus' disintegrated, the lands that made up present-day "Ukraine" (or should I say "the Ukraine") have belonged to either Moscow/Russia or Poland or Austro-Hungary or Lithuania, etc. Even the word Ukraine came from the Russian word for borderland, when Ukraine was the border region of Russia, hence why it used to be (and still often is) referred to as "the Ukraine".

Satorius

10-09-2009, 05:06 AM

Aha! Then please tell me what sources you have got to mark them false conspiracy theories.
You are not by chance Yushenko's book keeper, are you?

If you accuse somebody of something it is up to you to give evidence and proof to confirm your accusations. If you are not able to give any credible evidence and proof conferming the accusations made against a pesron then all your statements should be considered as slander. One can find articles internet/Media sources claming that Merkel is a Jewish spy working for ZOG so what?

AmaStrat

10-09-2009, 05:35 AM

Most of Muscovite-Russians came to Ukraine after Holodomor and WWII to replace the starved and killed Ukrainian population. All your hundreds and hundreds of years are rediculous. Muscovian tsardom changed it name to "Russia" in XVIII century to fit its expansionist political agenda. The Russian language come from Church Slavonic that is Bulgarian language that was used as the book language in Kievan Rus by priests after Christinisation. Ukrainian/Belarusian languages come mainly from local original Slavic varnaculars.
Even now Russian resemble Bulgarian more than any other language.

In Belarusian/Ukrainian languages people from Muscovia-"Russia" were called exclusively Moskali and not Russians. All the words with the root "Rus" refer only to the state of Kievan Rus in these two Slavic languages.

It is the fact that the bulk of the territory of the Russian Empire/USSR/present-day Russia has nothing to do with Kievan Rus and did not even border on it. The bulk of their terriory used to be the parts of Holden Horde. There was no such political entity in Kievan Rus as Muscovian principality/tsardom that was turned into Russian Empire later. No one heard about Moscow then. Muscovian tsardom was formed and gained its power under Mongols. How? By becoming Mongol tax-collector in the terrirory of Kievan Rus' principalities and robbing them for Golden Horde (of course not without stealing for itself). When the Golden Horde decayed and collapsed due to interior conflicts Moscow just started to reassemble a new Golden Horde with the center in Moscow(with temporarily relocation to St-Petersburg). The Russian Empire/USSR/the RF are just technologically upgraded versions of the Golden Horde.

Man, where do you pick this kind of disinformation? Did you get this from a book, or made it up your self?

Satorius

10-09-2009, 05:40 AM

What is your point, that map shows that Novgorod as well as the other Kievan Rus' cities were slavic. Russia assimilated foreign populations, they did the vikings that came with Rurik and they did with the Finnic tribes.Your original racist rant has no merit. What was your point, that Kievan Rus was solely "Ukrainian"? It's an established fact that Kievan Rus' was the precsursor to Russian AND Ukrainian AND Belarusian ethnicities. During Kievan Rus' time these present-day ethnicities were all one ethnicity. In fact, Rurik first was elected ruler of NOVGOROD then his successor's absorbed Kiev years later.

Kivan Rus wasn't Ukrainian, Russian or Belarusian. At that time there were lots of Slavic/non-Slavic separate tribes that started to transformed into the mentioned modern nations later.

Kievan Rus', which was the ancestor of all 3 present-day east Slavic peoples, ultimately disintegrated and the lands were divided into many small feudal states.Kievan Rus is just a state. It can't be the ansector of anyone. The ancestors of modern Ukrainians, Belarusians were the Slavic tribes living in Kievan Rus. The anscestors of modern Muscovite/Russians are of Slavic finno-Ugrik and Turkic origin. You can't say that you assimilate somebody and do not have the ethnic roots of those whom you assimilate.

The most powerful successor state to Kievan Rus' was Moscow, which served as the main force in the Russian reunification process and independence struggle against the Golden Horde. Moscow gradually reunified the surrounding Russian principalities and came to dominate the cultural and political legacy of Kievan Rus'. Just some basic facts about Muscovia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Moscow

The first ruler of the principality of Moscow, Daniel I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_of_Russia) (d. 1303), was the youngest son of Alexander Nevsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky) of Vladimir-Suzdal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir-Suzdal). He started to expand his principality by seizing Kolomna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolomna) and securing the bequest of Pereslavl-Zalessky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pereslavl-Zalessky) to his family. Daniel's son Yuriy (also known as Georgiy) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yury_of_Moscow)Moskva River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moskva_River) and expanded westward by capturing Mozhaisk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozhaisk). He then forged an alliance with the overlord of the Russian principalities, Uzbeg Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeg_Khan) of the Golden Horde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde), and married the khan's sister. He was allowed by the khan to claim the title of Grand Duke of Vladimir-Suzdal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir-Suzdal), a position which allowed him to interfere into the affairs of the Novgorod Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic) to the north-west.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moscow_daniel.jpg)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moscow_daniel.jpg)
During the reign of Daniel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_of_Russia), Moscow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow) was little more than a small timber fort lost in the forests of Central Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia)

Yuriy's successor, Ivan I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_I_of_Russia) (r. 1325–40), managed to retain the title of Grand Duke by cooperating closely with the Mongols and collecting tribute and taxes from other Russian principalities on their behalf. This relationship enabled Ivan to gain regional ascendancy, particularly over Moscow's chief rival, the northern city of Tver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tver), which rebelled against the Horde in 1327. The uprising was subdued by the joint forces of Mongols and Muscovites. Ivan was reputed to be the richest person in Russia, as his moniker "Kalita" (literally, the "moneybag") testifies. He used his treasures to purchase land in other principalities and to finance construction of stone churches in the Kremlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kremlin). In 1327, the Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy) Metropolitan Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Peter) transferred his residence from Kiev to Vladimir and then to Moscow, further enhancing the prestige of the new principality.

There was never any "Ukraine" in this equation. Since Kievan Rus' disintegrated, the lands that made up present-day "Ukraine" (or should I say "the Ukraine") have belonged to either Moscow/Russia or Poland or Austro-Hungary or Lithuania, etc. Even the word Ukraine came from the Russian word for borderland, when Ukraine was the border region of Russia, hence why it used to be (and still often is) referred to as "the Ukraine".Oh, it is traditional nonsence based on wishful thinking.

Since Kievan Rus disintegration there has been The Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia or Kingdom of Rus' that included Kiev and most of the populated territory of Ukraine at that time. One of its rulers received the title of king and thus became the only Christian Orthodox ruler who recieved this title from Pope in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia

Afterwards there was a de-facto independant Ukrainian cossack Zaporozhian_Host

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Host

There was also Ukrainian cossack hetmanate that represented the nation of Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_Hetmanate

In Slavic languges the word Kraj means land/ home. For instance Polish WWII partisan army was called Armija Krajova that means Home Army.

In Ukrainian U means in/at. So the word Ukraine it likely to mean "at home" or inland as opposite to outland.

Difool

10-09-2009, 05:41 AM

If you accuse somebody of something it is up to you to give evidence and proof to confirm your accusations. If you are not able to give any credible evidence and proof conferming the accusations made against a pesron then all your statements should be considered as slander. One can find articles internet/Media sources claming that Merkel is a Jewish spy working for ZOG so what?
That's the basic problem. Nobody here can confirm any information. We rely on press releases, books and other secundary sources. So if the measurement of posting should be that it has to be based on evidence you can throw at least 95% of posts here (including yours) into the trash can. I really would like to have a goddish knowledge but I have to admit that I don't have got it so far.

Satorius

10-09-2009, 06:07 AM

That's the basic problem. Nobody here can confirm any information. We rely on press releases, books and other secundary sources. So if the measurement of posting should be that it has to be based on evidence you can throw at least 95% of posts here (including yours) into the trash can. I really would like to have a goddish knowledge but I have to admit that I don't have got it so far.

Well, there are facts and there are conspiracy theories. I refer to facts. The theory about Americans financially sponsoring Ukrainian government is a cosnpiracy theory just like the theory Merkel being a Jewish spy working for ZOG. The difference is that the theory about Merkel is spread by some individual enthusiasts while conspiracy theories about Ukraine has been spread by the huge Kremlin's propaganda machine.

Mango Madness

10-09-2009, 06:09 AM

Kivan Rus wasn't Ukrainian, Russian or Belarusian. At that time there were lots of Slavic/non-Slavic separate tribes that started to transformed into the mentioned modern nations much later.

Kievan Rus is just a state. It can't be the ansector of anyone. The ancestors of modern Ukrainians, Belarusians were the Slavic tribes living in Kievan Rus. The anscestors of modern Muscovite/Russians are of Slavic finno-Ugrik and Turkic origin. You can't say that you assimilate somebody and do not have the ethnic roots of those whom you assimilate.

The ancestors of Kievan Rus' were Russian/Belarusian/Ukrainians, look in a history book http://assets.cambridge.org/97805218/64039/excerpt/9780521864039_excerpt.pdf The fact that you are trying to push the view that Ukrainians are the sole ancestors to Kievan Rus is quite laughable as out of the past millenium, this is a recent Ukrainian nationalist idea that has emerged in the past few years. The lands that made up Ukraine (and hence the people in it) were part of Russia, Poland, Austro-Hungary, Lithuania, etc, therefore by your logic they are not the ancestors of Kievan Rus' either but are mongrelized also by nearly a millenium of intermixing.

Oh, it is traditional nonsence based on wishful thinking.

Since Kievan Rus disinegratiuon there has been The Kingdom of Galicia–Volhynia or Kingdom of Rus'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia

Afterwards there was a de-facto independant Ukrainian cossack Zaporozhian_Host

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Host

There was also Ukrainian cossack hetmanate that represented the nation of Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_Hetmanate
Nice try but these were not states. Look in a history book, the only time that Ukraine achieved statehood was in 1918 and 1991. Before that the land that made up "Ukraine" or "Russia's borderland", by definition, were tossed about between ACTUAL nations.

Encyclopedia Britannica: "The Mongol (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/389284/Mongol) conquest in the mid-13th century decisively ended Kievan power. From the 14th to the 18th century, portions of Ukraine were ruled by Lithuania (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/343803/Lithuania), Poland (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/466681/Poland/466681overview/Overview#toc9375525), and Russia (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/513251/Russia). In addition, Cossacks (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/139420/Cossacks) controlled a largely self-governing territory known as the Hetmanate. Most of Ukraine fell to Russian rule in the 18th century. In the aftermath of World War I (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/648646/World-War-I/648646overview/Overview#toc9382943) and the Russian Revolution of 1917 (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/513907/Russian-Revolution-of-1917), most of the Ukrainian region became a republic of the Soviet Union, though parts of western Ukraine were divided between Poland, Romania (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/508461/Romania/508461overview/Overview#toc9377123), and Czechoslovakia. In 1991 Ukraine declared independence."

In Slavic languges the word Kraj means land/ home. For instance Polish WWII partisan army was called Armija Krajova that means Home Army.

In Ukrainian U means in/at. So the word Ukraine it likely to mean "at home" or inland as opposite to outland.Nice try but mega fail yet again.

"The name Ukraine is from Old Russian oukraina, "border country", from ou, "by," "at," and kraj, "region". The territory was so called because it was the borderland or "frontier zone" of medieval Russia at the time of the Tatar invasion in the 13th century - Room, Adrian. Placenames of the World. London: MacFarland and Co., Inc., 1997
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=PzIer-wYbnQC&pg=PA370&lpg=PA370&dq=placenames+of+the+world+ukraine+%E2%80%9Cborderland%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=OFZtrEJPBp&sig=gL3WHbUZJCKNPJqv-OOkIZZ1q_Y&hl=en&ei=0wnPSsq8A5Ly6gPOl8jmAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

User_Name

10-09-2009, 06:14 AM

svydomy zhzhotroflroflrofl

People do not forget that Jesus also was an ukr from OKRAINA

TakeIt

10-09-2009, 06:16 AM

I see we have a die-hard nationalist here.

No troubles. BS. Live and travel the land.

I am frequently Russian-speaking myself. "All the troubles with Russian-speaking population" are invented by Kremlin propaganda and repeated by Russian chauvenists who turn a blind eye to the discrimination of Russians in the countries where it really exists just because their leaders are kremlin buddies and kremlin Mass Media barks on others. The lastest example of the "Kremlin propaganda" could've been seen during last independence celebration, where i witnessed several small groups arguing about "long and dreadfull" oppression and telling that all russkies must be forcibly removed from Ukraine and "pay the price". Kiev, famous Maidan.

Speaking about previous goverments - none of them allowed nationalists and revanshists march with such freedom, as current, none of them confronted Russia to the extend, that treatened the well-being of ordinary citisens to the extent bordering starvation, none supported creation of new myths on a wide scle about soviet period and pushed nationalistic agenda, none created situation, where country is on the werge of collapse. And the list goes on. After ~20 years of independence you'd think that motherf*ckers learned something yet current goverment is the worst in line, with corruption reaching unimaginable heights. During Kuchma's period several high posts in judicial system costed ~50k $(for the city judge and higher, the relative of my wife was a member of the Constitutional Court), post in militia ~10k and more, customs ~50k, now those prices doubled, with everything needed to be payed for directly in the pockets. I had need to receive some papers regarding land ownership, they were free of charge, yet in subtle voice madam told me, that if i want to receive them quickly in a couple of days, i have to pay ~50$, or i've to wait 3 month or even more, because "they're so busy now"..

Speaking of US support - one must've been truly blind not to see. Well, rather that solely "US" it was "western". With "West" apriori receiving only deformed as the "true" and "genuine" victor.

There have been no official invitation to join from the NATO and will be none. Bringing Ukraine into NATO is your morbid fantasies. Actually it is "morbid fantasy" of mr.Uschenko and Co. Remeber Rybachuk and other NATO- & Euro- integrators?

How can one bring a state into the organization against the will of the organization? The more appropriate question must be " How can one bring a state into the organization against the will of the population?"

"Stupid" inspections were stipulated in the agreements. RF's Navy just temporary rent some areas and facilities for base and don't own them. I don't see why it is a problem for you. There are no "inspections" mentioned in the Agreement on the fleet. The only information Ukraine receiving is yearly report about number of personnel and weapons.

there are only Ukronazis and fascists I've yet to meet a Ukrainian patriot, who doesn't fall into those categories. And mind you, vyshyvanka is not a necessary accessory to became one.

Oh, I disturbed the fantasy world of Russian patriotic idyll. Seems you live in some imaginationland.

Wojtop

10-09-2009, 06:18 AM

Even the word Ukraine came from the Russian word for borderland, when Ukraine was the border region of Russia, hence why it used to be (and still often is) referred to as "the Ukraine".

Geez, how could possibly the name "Ukraine" come from Russian language if Russia or Muscovite did not exist when word "Ukraina" first appeared in a book (XII century)? In Poland we use the same explanation, which is much more plausible cause Poles first captured Kiev somewhere in XI century and took permanent control of large part of Ukraine few hundred years later - U Kraina could be translated as "Country of U" or "Near the end" in Polish. But Saturnin's explanation is much more plausible - U Kraina meaning "at home" sounds very very probable as explanation of the name.

I'm really sickened by the level of discussion by our Russian members. Saturnin gives tons of interesting info with links to prove his words, Russians are posting one-liners in reply, ironizing or asking him to reveal his identity, occassionally throwing in some ungrounded claims. What has happened? Pravda has not took any position about it yet so you don't know what should you reply? F***n ridiculous.

And regarding Crimea - better f***k off of this piece of land which doesn't belong to you and never will and take care of Kaliningrad. Your enclave in EU has 20% unemployment rate and is going down like a stone, if its citizens remain in this kind of crap for few years they will likely come to conclusion that EU is a better choice for them than RF and start talking about secession.

Robert.V

10-09-2009, 06:33 AM

Geez, how could possibly the name "Ukraine" come from Russian language if Russia or Muscovite did not exist when word "Ukraina" first appeared in a book (XII century)? In Poland we use the same explanation, which is much more plausible cause Poles first captured Kiev somewhere in XI century and took permanent control of large part of Ukraine few hundred years later - U Kraina could be translated as "Country of U" or "Near the end" in Polish. But Saturnin's explanation is much more plausible - U Kraina meaning "at home" sounds very very probable as explanation of the name.

I'm really sickened by the level of discussion by our Russian members. Saturnin gives tons of interesting info with links to prove his words, Russians are posting one-liners in reply, ironizing or asking him to reveal his identity, occassionally throwing in some ungrounded claims. What has happened? Pravda has not took any position about it yet so you don't know what should you reply? F***n ridiculous.

And regarding Crimea - better f***k off of this piece of land which doesn't belong to you and never will and take care of Kaliningrad. Your enclave in EU has 20% unemployment rate and is going down like a stone, if its citizens remain in this kind of crap for few years they will likely come to conclusion that EU is a better choice for them than RF and start talking about secession.

I don't know what you have been reading but Mango Madness and others have been picking his post piece by piece and proving him wrong. And all his source are so far from wiki for god's sakes.

Your enclave in EU has 20% unemployment rate and is going down like a stone, if its citizens remain in this kind of crap for few years they will likely come to conclusion that EU is a better choice for them than RF and start talking about secession.

Or invade other EU countries and look for work there ALA polaks. p-)

Satorius

10-09-2009, 06:35 AM

The ancestors of Kievan Rus' were Russian/Belarusian/Ukrainians, look in a history book http://assets.cambridge.org/97805218/64039/excerpt/9780521864039_excerpt.pdf

The ancestors of Kievan Rus? Wow, you means the nations of Russian/Belarusian/Ukrainians had existed even before Kievan Rus?

The fact that you are trying to push the view that Ukrainians are the sole ancestors to Kievan Rus is quite laughable as out of the past millenium, this is a recent Ukrainian nationalist idea that has emerged in the past few years. You are absolutely ignorant of any Ukrainian nationalist ideas or any ideas at all. What Ukrainian nationalist authors have you read? Do you read Ukrainian?

The lands that made up Ukraine (and hence the people in it) were part of Russia, Poland, Austro-Hungary, Lithuania, etc, therefore by your logic they are not the ancestors of Kievan Rus' either but are mongrelized also by nearly a millenium of intermixing.Absolutely no. Total Assimilation and being a part of some state does not equal in any way. Do you know that most of the nations on earth don't have their own states . You will deny that their ethnicities exist just because they don't have their separate states?

Nice try but mega fail yet again.

"The name Ukraine is from Old Russian oukraina, "border country", from ou, "by," "at," and kraj, "region". The territory was so called because it was the borderland or "frontier zone" of medieval Russia at the time of the Tatar invasion in the 13th century - Room, Adrian. Placenames of the World. London: MacFarland and Co., Inc., 1997
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=PzIer-wYbnQC&pg=PA370&lpg=PA370&dq=placenames+of+the+world+ukraine+%E2%80%9Cborderland%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=OFZtrEJPBp&sig=gL3WHbUZJCKNPJqv-OOkIZZ1q_Y&hl=en&ei=0wnPSsq8A5Ly6gPOl8jmAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=&f=falseMedival Russia? But there were no Ukrainian territories in the Medival Muscovy-Russia? Medival perod ended in XVI century. Learn basic facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages#Late_Middle_Ages

How can Ukraine be the borderland without being in the state Muscovia-Russia of which borderland it is supposed to be according to you? In Kievan Rus present-day Ukrainian territories were the main political and economic core of the state but not okraina. Kiev was the capital and gave the part of the name for the state of Kievan Rus.

Satorius

10-09-2009, 06:59 AM

Speaking about previous goverments - none of them allowed nationalists and revanshists march with such freedom, as current, none of them confronted Russia to the extend,

Marches of the ones whom you called nationalists and revanshists have taken palce since the late 1980. Simply Russian Mass MEdia started their chuavenist hysteria after 2004 for cheap Russian patriotic PR needs.

that treatened the well-being of ordinary citisens to the extent bordering starvation, none supported creation of new myths on a wide scle about soviet period and pushed nationalistic agenda, none created situation, where country is on the werge of collapse.And the list goes on. After ~20 years of independence you'd think that motherf*ckers learned something yet current goverment is the worst in line, with corruption reaching unimaginable heights. During Kuchma's period several high posts in judicial system costed ~50k $(for the city judge and higher, the relative of my wife was a member of the Constitutional Court), post in militia ~10k and more, customs ~50k, now those prices doubled, with everything needed to be payed for directly in the pockets. I had need to receive some papers regarding land ownership, they were free of charge, yet in subtle voice madam told me, that if i want to receive them quickly in a couple of days, i have to pay ~50$, or i've to wait 3 month or even more, because "they're so busy now"..

Such situation is in all the post-Soviet states including Russia but excluding Baltic states.

You mean the historic experience of Muscovite-Russians who has always "had" the most uncorrupted, honest, tolerant, free, progressive. and prosperous country on earth will be very helpful in fighting against corruption and solving economic problems in Ukraine?

Difool

10-09-2009, 07:02 AM

Well, there are facts and there are conspiracy theories. I refer to facts. The theory about Americans financially sponsoring Ukrainian government is a cosnpiracy theory just like the theory Merkel being a Jewish spy working for ZOG. The difference is that the theory about Merkel is spread by some individual enthusiasts while conspiracy theories about Ukraine has been spread by the huge Kremlin's propaganda machine.
So where are the facts you refer to?

Satorius

10-09-2009, 07:13 AM

So where are the facts you refer to?

The fact is that Yushchenko' election campaign was financed by Ukrainian oligarchs who were members of his and ally parties.

TakeIt

10-09-2009, 07:16 AM

Marches of the ones whom you called nationalists and revanshists have taken palce since the late 1980. Really? How old are you?

Simply Russian Mass MEdia started their chuavenist hysteria after 2004 for cheap Russian patriotic PR needs. I don't know much about Russian media, but i live here and see situation with my own eyes.

Such situation is in all the post-Soviet states including Russia but excluding Baltic states.Dude, situation with corruption in Russia or any other country for that matter doesn't concern me. Learn to live without pointing fingers.

You mean the historic experience of Muscovite-Russians who has always "had" the most uncorrupted, honest, tolerant, free, progressive. and prosperous country on earth will be very helpful in fighting against corruption and solving economic problems in Ukraine? I really almost lost the point of this gibberish of yours, yet i doubt Russia needs burden as big as present wreck of a country contemporary Ukraine turned to.

Frutzel

10-09-2009, 08:05 AM

The fact is that Yushchenko' election campaign was financed by Ukrainian oligarchs who were members of his and ally parties.

Yeah great logic!Get a room with wojtop and wank about it. This is getting ridiculous :roll:

gazell

10-09-2009, 08:12 AM

Yeah great logic!Get a room with wojtop and wank about it. This is getting ridiculous :roll:

It is. The 'linguists' came out again.

Normalising relations with transit countries could be a rather important issue for Russia.

Frutzel

10-09-2009, 08:26 AM

It is. The 'linguists' came out again.

Normalising relations with transit countries could be a rather important issue for Russia.

Nobody is discussing the second part but Satorius is giving out facts without a proof while blaming others to do so. Btw nothing wrong with doubts about his claims, so no need to be an asshat

gazell

10-09-2009, 08:48 AM

Nobody is discussing the second part but Satorius is giving out facts without a proof while blaming others to do so. Btw nothing wrong with doubts about his claims, so no need to be an asshat

Hey! That was me trying to get back on topic.p-)

Hast2

10-09-2009, 09:10 AM

Most of Muscovite-Russians came to Ukraine after Holodomor and WWII to replace the starved and killed Ukrainian population. All your hundreds and hundreds of years are rediculous. Muscovian tsardom changed it name to "Russia" in XVIII century to fit its expansionist political agenda. The Russian language come from Church Slavonic that is Bulgarian language that was used as the book language in Kievan Rus by priests after Christinisation. Ukrainian/Belarusian languages come mainly from local original Slavic varnaculars.
Even now Russian resemble Bulgarian more than any other language.

In Belarusian/Ukrainian languages people from Muscovia-"Russia" were called exclusively Moskali and not Russians. All the words with the root "Rus" refer only to the state of Kievan Rus in these two Slavic languages.

It is the fact that the bulk of the territory of the Russian Empire/USSR/present-day Russia has nothing to do with Kievan Rus and did not even border on it. The bulk of their terriory used to be the parts of Holden Horde. There was no such political entity in Kievan Rus as Muscovian principality/tsardom that was turned into Russian Empire later. No one heard about Moscow then. Muscovian tsardom was formed and gained its power under Mongols. How? By becoming Mongol tax-collector in the terrirory of Kievan Rus' principalities and robbing them for Golden Horde (of course not without stealing for itself). When the Golden Horde decayed and collapsed due to interior conflicts Moscow just started to reassemble a new Golden Horde with the center in Moscow(with temporarily relocation to St-Petersburg). The Russian Empire/USSR/the RF are just technologically upgraded versions of the Golden Horde.

A lot of unrelated nonsense. Back "on-topic" :There's no mentioning of any Ukrainian or Belorussian or Russian people in Kievskaia Rus'. None. Zero. Do you understand? There's mentioning of some minor dialect differences here and there and the acknowledgment what, in general, people absolutely the same. Nothing more. So your "theory" about "tribes", "mongols", "fins", whatever, fails completely. Any "Mouscovits" and "Ukraine" are political processes. with, of course, influence from different sides. Pure historical facts.
So again : look at the size of Ukraine when it was mentioned first time, look at the size of the modern Ukraine, learn how it gained these territories and stop posting Ukr's nonsense.

Wojtop

10-09-2009, 09:19 AM

I don't know what you have been reading but Mango Madness and others have been picking his post piece by piece and proving him wrong. And all his source are so far from wiki for god's sakes.

Wiki is way better than nothing. When i started writing my post there was no input from TakeIt and Mango Madness, only some very crappy or ironic replies.

Or invade other EU countries and look for work there ALA polaks. p-)
:-( It hurts so bad... Please hug me. :hug: But well... it doesn't change the fact that Kaliningrad is sinking in sh*t at the moment together with Baltic countries but contrary to them with no prospects of aid from EU.

Hast2

10-09-2009, 09:31 AM

Of course, Kaliningrad doesn't receive funds from EU, like mighty Poland, maybe that's the problemrofl

Kangars

10-09-2009, 09:34 AM

Main help from EU is that we can export our unemployment.
My uncle from Crimea told recently that international phone calls in Ukraine calculated in euro. With devaluation of grivna they became very expensive. Is that true?

Afro-European

10-09-2009, 10:48 AM

Medvedev will not meet Yushchenko on CIS summit sidelines

MOSCOW, October 9 (Itar-Tass) -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev will participate in the CIS summit in Chisinau on Friday that will focus on joint anti-crisis measures and will hold several bilateral meetings on its sidelines.
His spokeswoman Natalya Timakova said the president will meet Armenian and Azerbaijani counterparts Serzh Sargsyan and Ilham Aliyev, as well as acting Moldovan President Mihai Ghimpu.
Timakova said no bilateral meeting is scheduled with Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko although he expressed a wish to talk to the Russian leader. The spokeswoman said no official request for the meeting had arrived by diplomatic channels from Ukraine.
Medvedev earlier publicly blamed Yushchenko for conducting an anti-Russian policy.
As for the trilateral meeting with the Armenian and Azerbaijani counterparts, Timakova said “we expect no breakthroughs. It is a continuation of the dialogue, a new step in Nagorno-Karabakh settlement.”
The summit will discuss preparations for the celebrations of the 65th anniversary of VE-Day in 2010 and legal aspects caused by the Georgian withdrawal from the CIS.

shoora

10-09-2009, 12:52 PM

The fact is that Yushchenko' election campaign was financed by Ukrainian oligarchs who were members of his and ally parties. Organization is the key. Assuming, Yushenko competitor (and possible next president of ukraine) has more money back then. But was unable to execute efficient anti-compaign. Many business, assuming future benefits, willingly put their money and effort on this. But organization was outsourced. I don't think, I have to prove that PR support and organization of Yushenko compaign was way above their the head of Yanukovich's headquarter. Actually, this was way above the head of any Ukrainian domestic specialists in political technology. So, basically customer paid just $50M for work to be done, contractors paid ten times more from their own pocket. Brilliant, isn't it!? PS. I personally know some one of the contractors. Their investments in "pomaranch revolution" greatly rewarded.

Mousepad

10-09-2009, 02:27 PM

Oh, even in US board i stumbled in "hohlosratch" how nice.

Sashko

10-09-2009, 02:53 PM

The fact is that Yushchenko' election campaign was financed by Ukrainian oligarchs who were members of his and ally parties.

Uh-huh.... :roll:

Facts on Yushenko's wife:

Katherine Chumachenko - an American of Ukrainian descent. Late 1980s she was working in the human rights bureau at the State Department. Later, we worked together at the White House, where she was in the Office of Public Liaison, and the Treasury Department, where she was in the executive secretary’s office. MBA from the University of Chicago was involved with the Heritage Foundation.

Moved to Kiev in early '90s where she worked with KPMG, an American consulting company, where she trained Ukrainians in Western methods of banking, accounting, and other fundamentals of a market economy.

She married Yushenko when he was still running the central bank. In that position, he was one of the few Ukrainians who was trusted by foreign investors.

In short: C I A field agent and a neo-con to the bone.

Ebana Mat

10-09-2009, 03:32 PM

Well, there are facts and there are conspiracy theories. I refer to facts.

Every conspiracy theory is based on "facts", the problem is in their interpretation. Propaganda works much in the same way. You refer to forced conclusions, which do not withstand any kind of scrutiny.

davey

10-09-2009, 04:51 PM

Well, there are facts and there are conspiracy theories.

Well, there are conspiracy theories and then there are conspiracies.

But personally I think the term conspiracy theory is used far too easily to settle arguments in geopolitics. As is the tin foil hat thing. If we were talking about chemtrails or The New World Order then it would be appropriate, but not for something like the Orange Revolution.

The Orange Revolution has secured the following for America :

*Geopolitical gains

*Expansion of its sphere of influence

*Potential for NATO expansion

*Armamants market expansion

*Nuclear fuel market expansion

*Access to mutual Russian and Ukrainian strategic defense technology

*Potential of a strategic Black Sea naval base

*Difficulties for the leader in the commercial space launch market (Russia) by gaining political control over an important partner and supplier

*Ditto for some key strategic elements of Russia's armamants industry

*Difficulties in Russia's energy relations with Europe while America is busy with its own attempts to control significant Central Asian energy resources and pipeline routes.

America's prominent role in the Colour Revolutions is no conspiracy theory, it's just good old geopolitics for own benefit. There's even a name for it - THE NEW GREAT GAME:

Recently there has been some recognition of the fact, that the Great Game continues as a conflict between the US led NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO) and the Russia-China led SCO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation) over the Central Asian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asian) oil pipelineshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Great_Game

I believe the term "Full Spectrum Dominance" has often been used often in America. Not only in the context of the military, but also geopolitics. The colour revolutions were a key element in this. Expect to see many more colour revolution attempts and Twitter uprisings.

Switek

10-10-2009, 01:31 AM

Sure... :roll:

Seems that some believe that Ukrainians are bunch of female and male blondes who can decide for themselves and are steering from abroad Wow! If Ukrainians aren't controlled by Moscow, they must be controlled by someone else... . But what we can expect from the people who refuse recognition Ukrainians as separate nation.

This narrow, intellectual less attitude is convenient. Do not require more intellectual effort to understand why most of Ukrainians prefer their imperfect and full of scandals democracy than alleged much quiet Russian soft authoritarianism.

Hazzard

10-10-2009, 01:55 AM

This narrow, intellectual less attitude is convenient.

Time will show who's attitude is more convenient.

shoora

10-10-2009, 05:55 AM

Sure... :roll:

Seems that some believe that Ukrainians are bunch of female and male blondes who can decide for themselves and are steering from abroad Wow! If Ukrainians aren't controlled by Moscow, they must be controlled by someone else...
Someone controls you any way. I don't see why control from Kiev is better than control from Moscow. I can tell you - there is no democracy in Ukraine. There is no discussions about critical questions, that are going to change way of life of generation to come. All you can see is just a noise, garbage, simulation. Courts, police and government completely corrupt. You can buy anything and anyone. Except foreign policy. First - highest bid for foreign policy was already made. Second - to protect business empires of oligarchs who own and rule government.

BTW, do you _really_ believe you are in full control of your own mind Mr.Freeman?
http://www.youtube.com/v/o1k8hJ1d8G4
I hope, you'll understand it.
Nobody makes selection what news you should see, and what should not. Nobody feeds you with "right" interpretation. Have you heard tag words - "communism", "totalitarianism", "democracy", "regime" and so on. No bias in documentary or fiction movies, either? Think again.
Is anyone ask, do you want your country to be a target for couple of 5 megaton nukes? Tell me about democracy and authoritarianism!

User_Name

10-10-2009, 06:03 AM

Do not require more intellectual effort to understand why most of Ukrainians prefer their imperfect and full of scandals democracy

Speaking out of your a_ss as alwaysp-)
for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/7ArvWNKrxMk

Switek

10-10-2009, 06:20 AM

Speaking out of your a_ss as alwaysp-)
for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/7ArvWNKrxMk

Thank you. I can hear a sh!t mister because I have voice disabled on my PC :)

TakeIt

10-10-2009, 08:02 AM

Seems that some believe that Ukrainians are bunch of female and male blondes who can decide for themselves and are steering from abroad Wow! If Ukrainians aren't controlled by Moscow, they must be controlled by someone else... . But what we can expect from the people who refuse recognition Ukrainians as separate nation. Switek, stop writing about things you're have no idea at all. The problem with Ukrainian goverment(not some general "ukrainians") that every person, that managed to secure position in is representing forces, that supported that person's rise to power. And since there is no genuinely native comparable(to Russia or whatever) power to create new layer of politicians, Ukraine is destined to be affected by external forces, i.e. ruled by foreign interests.

Do not require more intellectual effort to understand why most of Ukrainians prefer their imperfect and full of scandals democracy than alleged much quiet Russian soft authoritarianism. Questions:

- how much exactly is "most"?
- what Russian authoritarism has to do with failed superimposed orange democracy?

Excalibur

10-10-2009, 11:46 AM

appreciate if someone can explain why Russia agreed to transfer Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 ?

Sashko

10-10-2009, 11:55 AM

appreciate if someone can explain why Russia agreed to transfer Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 ?

"Russia" (or RSFSR at the time) did not agree to anything, noone asked Russia really.

General Secretary Krushev, and the multi-ethnic Communist Party, took the map and decided to "optimize" the borders...

Difool

10-10-2009, 01:51 PM

General Secretary Krushev, and the multi-ethnic Communist Party, took the map and decided to "optimize" the borders...
Maybe further optimization is required. p-)
Or the peoples decide to live as brothers again. :)

Snoshi

10-10-2009, 01:55 PM

Maybe further optimization is required. p-)
Or the peoples decide to live as brothers again. :)

And what does this suppose to mean? :roll:

Difool

10-10-2009, 02:03 PM

And what does this suppose to mean? :roll:
The former SU countries have to make their coice on that. I just don't like to see them kicking at each other. Somehow a peaceful coexistence has to be achieved. And that's only possible without influence of 3rd party countries IMHO.

Ebana Mat

10-11-2009, 12:09 AM

Sure... :roll:

Most of Ukrainians prefer...

I wish some one would actually ask the Ukrainian majority what they want, but then again Switek always knows better what we need and/or want :roll:
Switek also knows better what's what when it comes to issuing labels regarding the type of "rule". Who cares what ruskies themselves think, right? Very democratic.

TR1

10-11-2009, 12:30 AM

And what does this suppose to mean? :roll:Russia is goign to nuke Ukraine.
Under our new nuclear policy.

Derbedeu

10-11-2009, 12:40 AM

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7297/nonono.gif (http://img35.imageshack.us/i/nonono.gif/)

Serious TR1 is no longer serious....

marlowwe

10-11-2009, 12:40 AM

I don't see what's so funny. You think he is joking?

dracon49

10-11-2009, 12:59 AM

LOL ofcourse why should Russia nuke Ukraine?

Ebana Mat

10-11-2009, 01:20 AM

I don't see what's so funny. You think he is joking?

Yeah, we'll drop a few tomorrow sometime before the dinner, no biggie.

asch

10-11-2009, 05:13 AM

LOL ofcourse why should Russia nuke Ukraine?
for fun.
.

Snoshi

10-11-2009, 05:14 AM

for fun.
.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3015/3128676813_120f8ee156.jpg

Ulytau

10-11-2009, 05:29 AM

Come on neednt to fight good idea is giving there to Turkiye than problem will solved :|

''Joking and runs'' rofl

And cant nuke Whales

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu284/DeliBasAli/whales.jpg

my name again

10-11-2009, 05:38 AM

LOL ofcourse why should Russia nuke Ukraine?

For the lulz?
Can somebody please post the Putin and Medvedev for the lulz photo? :)

Ulytau

10-11-2009, 05:47 AM

For the lulz?
Can somebody please post the Putin and Medvedev for the lulz photo? :)

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu284/DeliBasAli/url12.jpg

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu284/DeliBasAli/url.jpg

my name again

10-11-2009, 06:43 AM

Just pricelessrofl

Hazzard

10-11-2009, 06:56 AM

For the lulz?
Can somebody please post the Putin and Medvedev for the lulz photo? :)

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8012/626808vzdrochnemeschyor.jpg

Satorius

10-12-2009, 11:10 AM

A lot of unrelated nonsense. Back "on-topic" :There's no mentioning of any Ukrainian or Belorussian or Russian people in Kievskaia Rus'. None. Zero. Do you understand? There's mentioning of some minor dialect differences here and there and the acknowledgment what, in general, people absolutely the same. Nothing more. So your "theory" about "tribes", "mongols", "fins", whatever, fails completely. Any "Mouscovits" and "Ukraine" are political processes. with, of course, influence from different sides. Pure historical facts.

Buddy, Kievan Rus chronicles and other historic sources refute your senseless claims. There are mentionings of dozens of different tribes both Slavic and non-slavic that had significant linguistic, ethnic and cultural differences

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_(people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_%28people))

According to the earliest East Slavic record, the Primary Chronicle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle), the Rus' was a group of Varangians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian) among others like Swedes and Gotlanders who lived on the other side of the Baltic Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea), in Scandinavia and as far as the land of the English and the French.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_%28people%29#cite_note-RPC-2) The Varangians were first expelled, then invited to rule the warring Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples) and Finnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic) tribes of Novgorod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod):
The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute to the Varangians — Chuds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chud), Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs), Merians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merians), and Krivichs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krivichs) drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and set out to govern themselves. But there was no law among them, and tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to custom. Thus they went overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These particular Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes_%28Germanic_tribe%29), and others Normans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans) and Angles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles), and still others Gotlanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland), for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Veps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veps) then said to the Rus, "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come reign as princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their kinfolk, were selected. They brought with them all the Rus and migrated.

Satorius

10-12-2009, 11:28 AM

Well, there are conspiracy theories and then there are conspiracies.

But personally I think the term conspiracy theory is used far too easily to settle arguments in geopolitics. As is the tin foil hat thing. If we were talking about chemtrails or The New World Order then it would be appropriate, but not for something like the Orange Revolution.

The Orange Revolution has secured the following for America :

*Geopolitical gains

*Expansion of its sphere of influence

*Potential for NATO expansion

Expansion of the sphere of influence? You mean prior to the Orange Revolution Ukraine had been hostile against to the US. It did not cooperate with the NATO and Kuchma did not send the forth largest military contingent to Iraq?

*Armamants market expansion

*Nuclear fuel market expansion
Today we can say that no expansions have taken place.

*Access to mutual Russian and Ukrainian strategic defense technology

*Ditto for some key strategic elements of Russia's armamants industry
There are few doubts all the military secrets were sold with discount by Russians under Yeltsin in the 1990s

*Potential of a strategic Black Sea naval baseThe base can be created in any other Black Sea NATO state or in Georgia. Though placing any base in such strategic deadlock as the Black Sea is simply inexpediant for the US.

*Difficulties in Russia's energy relations with Europe while America is busy with its own attempts to control significant Central Asian energy resources and pipeline routes.Ther difficulties in Russia's energy relations with Europe had taken place prior to the Orange Revolution

America's prominent role in the Colour Revolutions is no conspiracy theory, it's just good old geopolitics for own benefit. There's even a name for it - THE NEW GREAT GAME:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Great_Game

I believe the term "Full Spectrum Dominance" has often been used often in America. Not only in the context of the military, but also geopolitics. The colour revolutions were a key element in this. Expect to see many more colour revolution attempts and Twitter uprisings.Oh, one can invent any names. There are the name of ZOG, Marisans so what?

There are much more facts testifying about American full control over Putin's Russia. Let's annalyze real geopolitics:

1) Putin closed unique strategic Lurdes Signals Intelligence facility in Cuba

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/cuba/lourdes-imagery.htm

2)Putin closed Russian navy Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam

http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2002/2002-February/002832.html

3) During the Putin's period the US bases appeared in the territory the former USSR ( namely Kirgystan and Uzbekistan).

Since Putin's coming into power Russia has just ceded everything that really matters in geopolitics.

Satorius

10-12-2009, 12:08 PM

Organization is the key. Assuming, Yushenko competitor (and possible next president of ukraine) has more money back then. But was unable to execute efficient anti-compaign. Many business, assuming future benefits, willingly put their money and effort on this. But organization was outsourced. I don't think, I have to prove that PR support and organization of Yushenko compaign was way above their the head of Yanukovich's headquarter. Actually, this was way above the head of any Ukrainian domestic specialists in political technology. So, basically customer paid just $50M for work to be done, contractors paid ten times more from their own pocket. Brilliant, isn't it!? PS. I personally know some one of the contractors. Their investments in "pomaranch revolution" greatly rewarded.

Organization was outsoursed? Foreign specialists can't organize anything that will succeed here simply because they don't have local native linguistic, cultural, psychological backgrounds. The only "innovation" was orange symbolics. The tent town in the center of Kyiv and concerts just resembled the analogical events (students protests against the USSR and local commies) in 1991.

Afro-European

10-12-2009, 12:32 PM

Yanukovych leads polls ahead of Ukraine's presidential election

KIEV, October 12 (RIA Novosti) - The leader of the opposition Party of Regions is leading public opinion polls in Ukraine ahead of presidential election scheduled for January 17, 2010, the UNIAN news agency reported on Monday.
According to a poll conducted by the Ukraine Public Opinion Foundation, 26.8% of voters are ready to cast their votes in favor of Viktor Yanukovych, a former prime minister widely seen as pro-Russian. Incumbent leader Viktor Yushchenko trails with a mere 2.2%.
Yushchenko defeated Yanukovych five years ago in an election re-run, which followed street protests against alleged ballot rigging. The power shift to a pro-Western leadership was known as the Orange Revolution.
Yanukovych's closest rival is Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, with 15.6%. Former parliamentary speaker Arseniy Yatsenyuk is placed third with 9.3%.
Communist Party leader Petro Symonenko has 4%, former Ukrainian National Bank chief Sergiy Tygypko 1.6%, and Supreme Rada speaker Volodymyr Lytvyn 1.4%, UNIAN said.
A total of 15.2% of respondents intend to vote against all candidates, 6.7% are unwilling to go to the polls, and 6.7% are undecided.
However, 85.1% of respondents said they will vote.
The poll was conducted from September 26 to October 4 and covered 1,000 respondents in 85 populated areas of Ukraine, with a statistical error of 4%, UNIAN said.

Satorius

10-12-2009, 12:34 PM

Really? How old are you?

I don't know much about Russian media, but i live here and see situation with my own eyes.

Dude, situation with corruption in Russia or any other country for that matter doesn't concern me. Learn to live without pointing fingers.

Dude, learn to live without obsession to complain about Ukrainian problems to foreigners on the foreign forums if you are a citizen. Ukrainian problems are Ukrainian problems. You won't overcome corruption or do any good for Ukraine and its future with your pitiful complaining about Fatherland on foreign forums.

I really almost lost the point of this gibberish of yours, yet i doubt Russia needs burden as big as present wreck of a country contemporary Ukraine turned to.It would be correct if the RF were some present-day Austria or Sweden. However, the RF is a country of XIX century political mentality. It needed even the S. O. and Abkhazia that are absolute economic zeroes and wrecks.

TakeIt

10-12-2009, 01:55 PM

Dude... Dude indeed.. Let's agree on this - you don't teach me what is to be a citisen, and i don't call names.

One suggestion though: stop writing about elections. Both sides did what they could, both legal and illegal, to achieve victory. Oranges won thanks to mass-hysteria, which they masterfully orchestrated and exploited. Nothing more, nothing less.

Satorius

10-12-2009, 02:16 PM

Dude indeed.. Let's agree on this - you don't teach me what is to be a citisen, and i don't call names.

I don't teach. I just pointed out the evident thing - woeing about interior problems to the foreigners and bashing your state in front of foreigners testify that you are hysterical mere nothing who is ready to complain about his difficult life, authorities, country etc. to any staranger.

TakeIt

10-12-2009, 04:33 PM

I don't teach. Than don't lecture on citisenship.

I just pointed out the evident thing - woeing about interior problems to the foreigners and bashing your state in front of foreigners testify that you are hysterical mere nothing who is ready to complain about his difficult life, authorities, country etc. to any staranger. Peculiar conclusion. Well, let's lie that all is normal, maybe someone will believe and have a bit more positive attitude towards Ukraine. I only wonder how such result would be beneficial.. I understand you're the type, that can imagine an ocean out of single drop, but mind you - reality is different than what you imagine. So better don't.

Satorius

10-14-2009, 11:11 AM

Than don't lecture on citisenship.

Peculiar conclusion. Well, let's lie that all is normal, maybe someone will believe and have a bit more positive attitude towards Ukraine. I only wonder how such result would be beneficial.. I understand you're the type, that can imagine an ocean out of single drop, but mind you - reality is different than what you imagine. So better don't.

Lying and abstaining from complains on your own country and authorities to foreigners are two different things. In fact, you just do what you accuse Ukrainian politicians of - showing the inability to live without dragging foreigners into interior Ukrainian affairs and thus letting them use interior Ukrainin problems for foreign goals and interests.

Sashko

10-14-2009, 12:52 PM

I don't teach. I just pointed out the evident thing - woeing about interior problems to the foreigners and bashing your state in front of foreigners testify that you are hysterical mere nothing who is ready to complain about his difficult life, authorities, country etc. to any staranger.

Whoa, whoa, what are you actually saying? That we all have to put on the pink goggles and discuss only the positive aspects of wherever we all are from?

This is an international forum, so we discuss countries within international context. When you got your ass handed to you with arguments (of which you had none, because you spent exactly zero time on the ground in Ukraine), you basically called someone unpatriotic and hysterical because they criticized the political culture of their own country (you know better, right?). You sure it's Russia that has 19th century mentality and not you?

Satorius

10-14-2009, 01:46 PM

Whoa, whoa, what are you actually saying? That we all have to put on the pink goggles and discuss only the positive aspects of wherever we all are from?
This is an international forum, so we discuss countries within international context.
you basically called someone unpatriotic and hysterical because they criticized the political culture of their own country (you know better, right?). You sure it's Russia that has 19th century mentality and not you?

Do you realise that it is exactly what you and the rest of so-called Russiastrongcrew do here. While I just pointed out that when the territorial integrity of the state is called in question a citizen who respects himself and plans to live in his state
will not yell about interior problems in front of foreigners who call the territorial intergrity of his state in question. Under such circumstances those who behave like TakeIt care about their state as much as their home corrupted officials or venial politicians.

When you got your ass handed to you with arguments (of which you had none, because you spent exactly zero time on the ground in Ukraine),
Another wishful thinking, I have lived all my life in Kyiv, Ukraine, unlike different Russian patriot-runaways to the adversary US. I wonder how you combine Russian patriotism with working for the US economy/government and paying taxes to Uncle Sam that conducts anti-Russian policy across the globe according to general Russian patriotic opinion?

Kutuzov

10-14-2009, 02:41 PM

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8012/626808vzdrochnemeschyor.jpg

roflroflroflrofl

gazell

10-15-2009, 03:27 PM

...................................................

gazell

10-15-2009, 03:29 PM

Lying and abstaining from complains on your own country and authorities to foreigners are two different things. In fact, you just do what you accuse Ukrainian politicians of - showing the inability to live without dragging foreigners into interior Ukrainian affairs and thus letting them use interior Ukrainin problems for foreign goals and interests.

Who is bringing shame on the Ukraine is you, not the other posters, IMO. People read news these days, you know.p-)

Afro-European

10-15-2009, 03:44 PM

Ukrainian policy shouldn't look only to the West - ex-president

KIEV, October 15 (RIA Novosti) - Ukraine's policy should be more global, and not focus solely on the West, former president Leonid Kuchma said on Thursday.
During a Moscow-Kiev-Chisinau-Tbilisi satellite link-up, he said there was no alternative to "a multi-vector policy."
"If somebody denies this, consider what Ukraine has achieved with a uni-vector policy," he said, referring to President Viktor Yushchenko's pro-U.S. and EU stance, and tensions with Russia.
He said Ukraine sees Russia virtually as an "enemy."
Kuchma was the second president of independent Ukraine, from July 1994 until January 2005.

Robert.V

10-15-2009, 03:44 PM

roflroflroflrofl

Take europe what !? Translation please.

gazell

10-15-2009, 03:57 PM

Take europe what !? Translation please.

some black humour that...p-)

Mango Madness

10-15-2009, 06:34 PM

I don't know what you have been reading but Mango Madness and others have been picking his post piece by piece and proving him wrong. And all his source are so far from wiki for god's sakes.

Not only does he post wikipedia as sources, but he tries to pass his own theories off by using genuine info and then appending it with his own commentary which not supported by the sources.

Mango Madness

10-15-2009, 06:37 PM

Double post

shoora

10-20-2009, 06:49 AM

Organization was outsoursed? Foreign specialists can't organize anything that will succeed here simply because they don't have local native linguistic, cultural, psychological backgrounds. The only "innovation" was orange symbolics. The tent town in the center of Kyiv and concerts just resembled the analogical events (students protests against the USSR and local commies) in 1991.
OK, you know enough facts. There more specific details on this project, but only judge in court would need them. If you know something about political theater in Ukraine, then you must be able to connect all dots. Most likely you don't care, because this development perfectly fit in you image of Ukraine's future. Or, may be you've been brain washed. Whatever.
However, you must agree, that tensions with Russia greatly increased risks for integrity. Independence, I believe, Ukraine already lost since it became a client state.

Afro-European

10-22-2009, 09:09 AM

Ukraine looking for alternatives to Russian gas supplies

Ukraine has taken new steps to reduce its consumption of Russian natural gas and review its long-term agreements with Russian energy giant Gazprom.
On Wednesday, the Ukrainian government approved a development plan for its gas transportation system for 2009-2015. The plan stipulates the replacement of 7 billion cubic meters of natural gas imported annually with electricity.
A source close to Ukraine's state energy company Naftogaz said the plan provides for retooling the gas pumping systems of compressor stations, which use gas turbines and piston engines, to electricity. This should lower Ukraine's dependence on Russia because this will reduce the acquisition of buffer gas.
A Gazprom manager said unofficially that in this way Ukraine would be able to cut gas purchases by 7 billion cu m annually, although Naftogaz has pledged to buy at least 41 billion cu m of Russian natural gas annually until 2019.
In August, Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko said Kiev planned to cut the consumption of Russian gas to 25 billion cu m from the 52 billion contracted for 2010. Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin told her they would not fine Ukraine for its failure to buy the contracted gas.
However, the gas transit price includes the provision that Ukraine's gas transportation system uses buffer gas.
"If they change the type of fuel, they should also change the pricing formulas for gas transit and acquisition," the source said.
Valery Nesterov from Troika Dialog said the bulk of European countries mostly use gas for their gas transportation systems and switch to electricity only when there is a nuclear power plant located within 100 km (62 miles) of the system.
"The compressor stations of all new gas pipeline systems, including Nord Stream and Nabucco, are designed to use gas," Nesterov said.
Maxim Shein from Broker Credit Service said the conversion of compressor stations to electricity would increase the gas transit price.
"Ukraine currently spends $1.3 billion annually on the purchase of Russian natural gas for technical purposes," he said. "Given the current electricity rates, its technological expenditures will rise to $2 billion."
"It is for Ukraine to decide which fuel to use at its compressor stations. However, we are not going to review the terms of contract with Naftogaz and will insist that Ukraine honor them," said Sergei Kupriyanov, the spokesman of Gazprom

Source:Kommersant

Uncle_Vanya

10-25-2009, 01:51 AM

A pity Satorious has been suspended, I just love destroying "svidomite" myths...well, lets hope he gets back. :) Lets hope he studies up on real history in the process of being gone, not the oranjoid nonsense.

My first order of business then responding to "svidomite" crazies is pointing them towards "Notes about Moscovia" by Sigismund von Herberstein, written long before Peter the Great, that point out quiet clearly that people living in Moscow Tsardom spoke a slavic language, were Slavs, and referred to themselves as Russians...at that point oranjoids usually stick their heads in the sand. Then I go on into the genetic argument, providing studies, and coupling my argument with a few facts that point towards the Turkic roots of a lot of this "Ukrainianism" nonsense. "Hata"- turkic hut, choob worn by Zaporojian Cossacks, a Turkic tradition....etc., etc., etc. Around the time I get done, they start getting emotional, obviously shocked by the easiness with which actual historical facts cast aside their pseudo-historical, half-baked bull****. And the world becomes a better place. :)

Mango Madness

10-25-2009, 02:08 AM

----------------------

Afro-European

10-25-2009, 10:42 AM

Congress for Timoshenko’s nomination as presdntl candidate begins in Kiev

KIEV, October 24 (Itar-Tass) -- A congress of the Batkivshchina (Motherland) party that should nominate Prime Minister Yulia Timoshenko as a presidential candidate has begun in Kiev’s central Independence Square.
About a thousand official delegates and tens of thousands of “volunteer participants” have come to the congress, Timoshenko’s first deputy head in the party and government, Alexander Turchinov, said.
According to Turchinov, 200,000 people have come to the centre of Kiev. Police have refused to say how many people are attending the event, but earlier they said that this part of the city could accommodate no more than 70,000 people.
When presenting Timoshenko, Turchinov said, “The fate of Ukraine is being decided here. This happened five years ago when people defended their right to be free and to choose those who will have power.”
He is confident that “today we will make a decision that will determine the future of the country for the next decade”.
Congress delegates and pop stars take turns on the stage. Timoshenko ha snot arrived yet.

Timoshenko for equal and open relations between Ukraine & Russia

KIEV, October 25 (Itar-Tass) - Relations between Ukraine and Russia can be equal and open, said Ukrainian presidential candidate Yulia Timoshenko, addressing a multi-thousand congress-rally at the Independence Square in downtown Kiev on Saturday evening.
The premier emphasised that she “will permit nobody to affect Ukraine’ s national interests”.
According to police, around 150,000 people gathered in the country’s main square and the Kreshchatik Avenue. Timoshenko’s speech was followed by a concert with the participation of music companies and Ukrainian show biz stars, while fireworks decorated the Kiev sky with various colours.
Vice-premier Alexander Turchinov suggested “continuing work of the congress in the Independence Square till the end of the presidential elections”, which was approved with applause. Therefore, it can be suggested that Timoshenko sympathizers will “occupy” the square over the next three months.
Timoshenko’s electorate is 15-20 percent of the total number of voters. According to the latest polls, this is some 10 percent less than that of the front-runner of the presidential race Viktor Yanukovich.
The election race in the country was flagged off on October 19. Seven hopefuls have already submitted their documents to the Central Election Commission, while four of them already received candidate’s certificates. On Saturday, the Ukrainian People’s Party nominated its leader and member of the Ukrainian parliament Yuri Kostenko a presidential candidate. The elections will be held on January 17.