EU draws up plans to establish itself as 'world power'

[kalerab]

EU draws up plans to establish itself as 'world power'



The European Union has drawn up secret plans to establish itself as a global power in its own right with the authority to sign international agreements on behalf of member states.


By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels
Published: 7:00AM BST 07 Oct 2009

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01496/EU_flag_1496893c.jpg According to one confidential paper, the first pilot 'embassies' are planned in New York, Kabul and Addis Ababa. Photo: *****


Confidential negotiations on how to implement the Lisbon Treaty have produced proposals to allow the EU to negotiate treaties and even open embassies across the world.
A letter conferring a full "legal personality" for the Union has been drafted in order for a new European diplomatic service to be recognised as fully fledged negotiators by international bodies and all non-EU countries.

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According to one confidential paper, the first pilot "embassies" are planned in New York, Kabul and Addis Ababa.
The move is highly symbolic in Britain as it formally scraps the "European Community", the organisation that Britons originally voted to join in the country's only referendum on Europe 34 years ago.
Mark Francois, Conservative spokesman on Europe, said that the deal showed why the British should have been given a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
"As we have long warned, the Lisbon Treaty increases the EU's power at the expense of the countries of Europe," he said. "The new power a single legal personality would give the EU is a classic example.
"It illustrates why it is wrong for Labour to try to deny the British people any say on this Treaty at all."
The decision, taken shortly before Ireland's referendum last week, will mean a new European diplomatic service with over 160 "EU representations" and ambassadors across the world.
Lorraine Mullally, the director of Open Europe, described the move as "a huge transfer of power which makes the EU look more like a country than an international agreement".
"Giving the EU legal personality means that the EU, rather than member states, will be able to sign all kinds of international agreements – on foreign policy, defence, crime and judicial issues – for the first time," she said.
She pointed out that the 1975 referendum was on joining the EC and that it is the European Communities Act that gives Brussels legislation primacy over British law.
"British voters agreed to join the European Communities, not a political union with legal personality with the power to sign all kinds of international agreements," said Miss Mullally. "No one under the age of 52 has ever had a say on this important evolution and it's about time we did."
A restricted document circulated by the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg, seen by The Daily Telegraph, spells out the need for legal changes to set up a European External Service (EEAS), an EU diplomatic and foreign service with "global geographical scope".
The paper said: "The EEAS will need a legal status providing it with functional legal personality so that it has sufficient autonomy.
"This legal personality should also give it the capacity to act as necessary to carry out (its) tasks."
A British diplomat defended the decision. "The EU has been able to sign treaties for over a decade. The innovation under the Lisbon Treaty is that the European Community will cease to have legal personality. This is about simplification," she said.
Brussels ambassadors yesterday (TUES) began detailed work, in secret, to create new institutions, the EEAS, "foreign minister" and EU President, that are to be set up under the Lisbon Treaty.
Decisions "in principle" will be taken despite the fact that both Poland and the Czech Republic have not yet fully ratified the new EU Treaty.
The creation of the EEAS has sparked a bitter Brussels turf war. The European Commission could lose up to 1,424 senior staff from three departments.
Another 400 staff will be taken from the Council of the EU and an "equivalent" number will be seconded from national diplomatic services.
The EEAS will take over Commission representations – there are currently more than 160 offices around the world – and its senior diplomats will be given the same status as national ambassadors.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/6266147/EU-draws-up-plans-to-establish-itself-as-world-power.html

[budgie]

It will only work if the member states agree.

Do bear in mind it is not as evil as it sounds, the US was made up of thirteen separate colonies after all. However let's be honest, will big players like France, Britain and Germany give up their own right to formulate foreign policy? Only if and when it suits them at best...

[Gammelpreusse]

It will only work if the member states agree.

Do bear in mind it is not as evil as it sounds, the US was made up of thirteen separate colonies after all. However let's be honest, will big players like France, Britain and Germany give up their own right to formulate foreign policy? Only if and when it suits them at best...


France and Germany probably have less problems with this then Britian has. When the only alternative is to sink into insignificance in regards to the emerging powers, the choice becomes quite clear. Requires a certain amount of reality check, however. Then again those two countries have less of a high horse to fall down from.

[CS1.6]

IMHO, EU would be more responsible for the enviroment, human rights, regional conflits and so on when acting as a World Power than the current one.

[dracon49]

The EU is a sad joke.

[Breerman]

The EU is a sad joke.
Regardless of what you or anyone else think they make the laws you have to obey

[Stonewall71]

LOL

the EU cannot even take care of it's own house

[Arrotz]

EU takes care of itself in different matters (agriculture, EURO...etc), not the military one that's a fact.
Thats the main challenge for EU to build a common defense policy, my opinion is the main members like france and gemany ahve to provide the example and harmonize their foreign policies and weapons purchase. These only two countries represent 150 millions of people!

[tea drinker]

LOL

the EU cannot even take care of it's own house
You make it sound like you are sleeping with the EU's daughter and wife too. Are you?
Sonofabitch :fork:

[dracon49]

Regardless of what you or anyone else think they make the laws you have to obey
I said that its a sad joke, because between themself they hardly manage(there is a lot of division in the EU for example in Israe's operation cast lead some countries like CZ and Germany said that we have the right for self defence some criticized Israel-they dont have one position)and to be a world power you need to be united with one position(economically politically and militarily and also in other things),so because of that its not possible that the EU will be a world power unless all the EU states will become one state and not 26 or something like that like they are now.

[Antey]

Regardless of what you or anyone else think they make the laws you have to obey

And why is that ?

[tsuri]

Ah the good old british newspapers and the EU


Confidential negotiations on how to implement the Lisbon Treaty have produced proposals to allow the EU to negotiate treaties and even open embassies across the world.

Not exactly a proposal. There are "embassies" of the European Commission in lots of places already.
The EC also negotiates treaties in areas in which the individual countries have no full sovereignity anymore already



A letter conferring a full "legal personality" for the Union has been drafted in order for a new European diplomatic service to be recognised as fully fledged negotiators by international bodies and all non-EU countries.

This is not a letter, but the entire point of the whole Lisbon treaty. So far the EU did not exist as a legal persona. Once Lisbon is in effect, it does. This does not change all that much since there already is a body that has this legal persona, which is the EC. But the EC can not act in some areas, which are handled multilaterally in the European Union.


"British voters agreed to join the European Communities, not a political union with legal personality with the power to sign all kinds of international agreements,
Yes except that is exactly what the European Communities are
http://europa.eu/scadplus/glossary/union_legal_personality_en.htm


The two Communities (European Community and Euratom) making up the European Union each have legal personality. However, the Treaty on European Union does not contain any provisions on the Union's legal personality even though the Union comprises the two Communities and two areas of intergovernmental cooperation, namely common foreign and security policy (CFSP) and police and judicial cooperation in criminal matters.

The European Community has the power to conclude and negotiate agreements in line with its external powers, to become a member of an international organisation and to have delegations in non-member countries.

Essentiall this means:

The EU can now join NATO (if it's 27 members agree in unison) and the WTO instead of just the WTO. Ground breaking change indeed.

[Jobu]

IMHO, EU would be more responsible for the enviroment, human rights, regional conflits and so on when acting as a World Power than the current one.

Right, because Europe has such a glorious history when it comes to these areas while acting as world power center.

[Breerman]

And why is that ?
Because you end up in prison if you don't obey the laws?

[JBH22]

Not gonna happen

[jontew]

I really hope this never happens! The sooner we leave EU the better. But I guess that will never happen :(

[Solvent]

Maybe when next Charlemagne appears.

[Steak-Sauce]

I said that its a sad joke, because between themself they hardly manage(there is a lot of division in the EU for example in Israe's operation cast lead some countries like CZ and Germany said that we have the right for self defence some criticized Israel-they dont have one position)and to be a world power you need to be united with one position(economically politically and militarily and also in other things),so because of that its not possible that the EU will be a world power unless all the EU states will become one state and not 26 or something like that like they are now.

It's a sad joke because one half supported Israel and Cast Lead and the other not? That's all? Gimme a break..

[dracon49]

NO. Its because you have a division between yourself and to become a world power you need to have one agenda on everything, because it doesnt make sense that one country will say Y one will say X how can you have a strong position if your are divided?...and also for example about Russia some have X opinion some Y if you had one position only it would make you stronger in international relations. Instead of being 26 or somehting like that states you need to have one state.

[kalerab]

NO. Its because you have a division between yourself and to become a world power you need to have one agenda on everything, because it doesnt make sense that one country will say Y one will say X how can you have a strong position if your are divided?...and also for example about Russia some have X opinion some Y if you had one position only it would make you stronger in international relations. Instead of being 26 or somehting like that states you need to have one state.

The thing is that there will be always different opinions on some matter (be it Israel, Russia, ABM shield or Georgia) and there just is not the way to please all of them.

[dracon49]

So how can you have a strong position and become a world power?...if the EU would be a one state it would be stronger then the US.

[Gammelpreusse]

I suppose we have a different definition of world power.
Major global player probably is more suitable. It's not about empire building or force projection.

What that means you may get an idea of when googeling for the GE/Honeywell merger as a prominent example

[Wahnsinn]

So how you can have a strong position and to become a world power?...if the EU would be a one state it would be stronger then the US.

The EU is made up of 27 very different countries, not 50 similar states. The EU should never, ever become anything like the USA and never will. Hopefully.

You can't expect all the countries within the EU to agree on everything, they are very diverse economically, linguistically and culturally. The EU is no joke because of that. It is like saying the UN security council is a joke because they can't agree. They don't have to.

:cantbeli:

[joka]

The EU is a sad joke.

A true underdog story! woot

[Steak-Sauce]

So how you can have a strong position and to become a world power?...if the EU would be a one state it would be stronger then the US.

The EU already is a world power in economically terms. Not as one state though. It has economical roots (EGKS = Europäische Gemeinschaft für Kohle und Stahl = European Community for Coal and Steel, 1952 / EWG = Europäische Wirtschaftsgemeinschaft = European Economy Community, 1957 / EURATOM, 1958), which were combined to create the Europäische Gemeinschaft (EG) in 1967. The Maastricht Treaty then formed today's EU (1991).

It was simply never the goal of the EU to become a military power. In my opinion, the EU is an umbrella of nations, which share the same opinions on different matters. However, that is not always the case, as you can see with Greeat Britain, which didn't join the EWU and introduced the €uro.

The EU has it's advantages, but also disadvantages. No one said it's the very best concept ever.

[Antey]

Because you end up in prison if you don't obey the laws?

Valid point - recently Poland scraped it's very own constitution to allow such proceeding.
So I'll rephrase it: why should I obey laws set up by half-brained neosocialist idiots ? ;) Especially, when none of these idiots themselves don't actually bother to do it ? ;)

[Antey]

The EU has it's advantages, but also disadvantages. No one said it's the very best concept ever.

The EU concept is a grim necessity in order to survive - that's quite obvious.
It's the concept's implementation that is flawed (up) beyond all reasonability.

[Connaught Ranger]

I said that its a sad joke, because between themself they hardly manage(there is a lot of division in the EU for example in Israe's operation cast lead some countries like CZ and Germany said that we have the right for self defence some criticized Israel-they dont have one position)and to be a world power you need to be united with one position(economically politically and militarily and also in other things),so because of that its not possible that the EU will be a world power unless all the EU states will become one state and not 26 or something like that like they are now.

Like all the states in the US are one? for example :roll:

[dracon49]

YES, but i know its not realistic.

[zema_06]

the EU, despite what is beeing said by the eurosceptics, will never become a political world power, only a major player on international politics (there are some fundamental differences), but only a economic power...

i think that the EU will never have a common international policy, as every country will have it's policy on every issue, even with a common EU presidency with an elected president. if someone agrees in joining such an union, knows that he has to give up some of it's competences to the higher institution. the evolution from the economic comunity to a political and economic union was clear from the begining, it's not something brought up in the last decade...

i've the impression that in some european countries are bringing up eurosceptisism due to the lack of a real programm/policy or simply to divert the public from the real problems, especially now that the crisis is taking it's toll in the economies.

[Irbis]

Valid point - recently Poland scraped it's very own constitution to allow such proceeding.
So I'll rephrase it: why should I obey laws set up by half-brained neosocialist idiots ? ;) Especially, when none of these idiots themselves don't actually bother to do it ? ;)

Well... considering the other side actually has no brain at all... p-)

Honestly, your intellect, politeness and observational skills astound me rofl

[Anomander]

What Zema_06 said, EU will never become a world power, however dudes like me would want it. It is simply to diverse, unfortunatly ;)

[RuneX2]

And why is that ?Because the EU is such a large trade block, that when the EU makes standards in for instance chemicals in toys or food or whatever, then multinational companies based both inside and outside the EU (incl. the USA) will have to follow these rules if it wants to trade within the EU. And when the company produce these products to follow the EU minimum standards then the same company will not produce another similar product, which does not follow the EU standards. So the EU has actually already a pretty far and global reach.

[Antey]

Because the EU is such a large trade block, that when the EU makes standards in for instance chemicals in toys or food or whatever, then multinational companies based both inside and outside the EU (incl. the USA) will have to follow these rules if it wants to trade within the EU. And when the company produce these products to follow the EU minimum standards then the same company will not produce another similar product, which does not follow the EU standards. So the EU has actually already a pretty far and global reach.

And the reality is (just to point out the problem):
- all companies in EU, which also wish to release their shares in US, must _globally_ implement SOX (Sarbanes-Oxley Act); does EU have any regulation that works other way round ?
- EU in one hand "punishes" US-based companies (Microsoft, Intel) for their market success, imposing fees or ordering development of products that simply don't sell out (Windows without MP) and in the other under disguise of "supporting invoation and technology" transfer huge amount of money to those companies (form EU taxpayers), heavily subsidizing purchase of products and services of those companies
- EU likes "one size fits all policy" and "compromise above all else"; the epitome of such approach is A-400M: delayed and more costly than C-17 with half of capabilities of it; every European project goes that way, see Galileo
- common agricultural policy resulted in worst quality, highest price food on the planet, not to mention it's harmful effect to developing countries and enforced internal quotas
- EU is overly concerned about minor details, such as banning plasma tv's, 100 Watt lightbulbs while ignoring more pressing issues
- common fiscal policy is largely ignored by more seasoned member states
- "don't vote, but if you have to, vote until you're back in line" policy, as recently demonstrated in Ireland
- China already, on some occasions, have exercised power to "comply or gtfo" for vendors (such as unification of mobile phones power / data transfer interfaces ). In this paritcular case, China initiated this move.


Well... considering the other side actually has no brain at all... p-)

Honestly, your intellect, politeness and observational skills astound me rofl


One may either repeat history or learn form it (or make stupid comments on what one can't comprehend).
In this part of the world, in just last two centuries we had USSR, Austria–Hungary, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia... each and every of them finally proving to be defective by design. And now, for some reason, the history repeats itself on larger scale... how do YOU think it will end ? (not to mention Poland itself, which was in EU-like union in times of First Republic, and, of course it also failed miserably).

Some form of unification and Europe-wide cooperations is a must; however, presently it's a disaster waiting to happen.

[Gammelpreusse]

And the reality is (just to point out the problem):
- all companies in EU, which also wish to release their shares in US, must _globally_ implement SOX (Sarbanes-Oxley Act); does EU have any regulation that works other way round ?
- EU in one hand "punishes" US-based companies (Microsoft, Intel) for their market success, imposing fees or ordering development of products that simply don't sell out (Windows without MP) and in the other under disguise of "supporting invoation and technology" transfer huge amount of money to those companies (form EU taxpayers), heavily subsidizing purchase of products and services of those companies
- EU likes "one size fits all policy" and "compromise above all else"; the epitome of such approach is A-400M: delayed and more costly than C-17 with half of capabilities of it; every European project goes that way, see Galileo
- common agricultural policy resulted in worst quality, highest price food on the planet, not to mention it's harmful effect to developing countries and enforced internal quotas
- EU is overly concerned about minor details, such as banning plasma tv's, 100 Watt lightbulbs while ignoring more pressing issues
- common fiscal policy is largely ignored by more seasoned member states
- "don't vote, but if you have to, vote until you're back in line" policy, as recently demonstrated in Ireland
- China already, on some occasions, have exercised power to "comply or gtfo" for vendors (such as unification of mobile phones power / data transfer interfaces ). In this paritcular case, China initiated this move.




One may either repeat history or learn form it (or make stupid comments on what one can't comprehend).
In this part of the world, in just last two centuries we had USSR, Austria–Hungary, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia... each and every of them finally proving to be defective by design. And now, for some reason, the history repeats itself on larger scale... how do YOU think it will end ? (not to mention Poland itself, which was in EU-like union in times of First Republic, and, of course it also failed miserably).

Some form of unification and Europe-wide cooperations is a must; however, presently it's a disaster waiting to happen.

That is what was said abou the EU and the EC for ages. There undoubtly are countless insanities wihin the EU that need to be changed, and I agree, urgently a that. The democracy deficit is another problem that has to be toppled. Neverheless, he EU works, and somehow goes on working, despite all he negatives, which leads me to the qustion if the eruopean press focusses a bit too much on the shortcomings of he EU simply because we are so used to the benefits we do not notice them anymore. There is a reason so many generations of polititians from so many countries worked on creating this Union despite heir different national backgrounds.

[little icebear]

Helmut Kohl is certainly not a hero of mine, but he once said the question of European unity is a question of war and peace.
If the Project EU does not succeed, we might end up back at each others throats sooner or later.

[muttbutt]

And the reality is (just to point out the problem):
- all companies in EU, which also wish to release their shares in US, must _globally_ implement SOX (Sarbanes-Oxley Act); does EU have any regulation that works other way round ?
No, although most EU countries do have similar, strangely enough the UK does not seem to have anything like it...


- EU in one hand "punishes" US-based companies (Microsoft, Intel) for their market success, imposing fees or ordering development of products that simply don't sell out (Windows without MP) and in the other under disguise of "supporting invoation and technology" transfer huge amount of money to those companies (form EU taxpayers), heavily subsidizing purchase of products and services of those companies
They have also "punished" EU companies, remember the EU's chief role is protection of the consumer, the US regulators is to maintain the market, subtle but a difference non the less.

- EU likes "one size fits all policy" and "compromise above all else"; the epitome of such approach is A-400M: delayed and more costly than C-17 with half of capabilities of it; every European project goes that way, see Galileo
The EU has nothing to do with the A400M, except marginally thorough the EDA (which has actually been quite successful in bringing the programmes , smallish though they are, along at a good pace), if you think the A400s delay is bad, don't look at the C130J, I don't believe it's final cost makes it more expensive then the Globy.
Galileo was not handled well, if thats an argument against the EU so be it, don't look at any US programmes where 50 states hash out build sites and workshare ect.

- common agricultural policy resulted in worst quality, highest price food on the planet, not to mention it's harmful effect to developing countries and enforced internal quotas
Agreed, I don't like CAP or it's conneced add on's

- EU is overly concerned about minor details, such as banning plasma tv's, 100 Watt lightbulbs while ignoring more pressing issues
It's hard for the EU to take on more pressing issues if the member states don't let it, the EU can not enforce it's will on the states that make it up, thats what differenciates it for a federal nation like the US. And anytime someone say's "give it that ability" it accused of creeping superstatism, it's a no win situation. If it does, it's critisised, if it does not it's critisised.
- common fiscal policy is largely ignored by more seasoned member states
- "don't vote, but if you have to, vote until you're back in line" policy, as recently demonstrated in Ireland
As has been mentioned, a lot of the no vote here was for certain aspects, (neutrality/abortion/the commissioner), we negotiated, and obtained what we wanted, and voted again, a not uncommon occurence in Irish referendums, we have had more then on on divorce and abortion.
- China already, on some occasions, have exercised power to "comply or gtfo" for vendors (such as unification of mobile phones power / data transfer interfaces ). In this paritcular case, China initiated this move.
I don't get what this has to do with the EU? I may have missed something




One may either repeat history or learn form it (or make stupid comments on what one can't comprehend).
In this part of the world, in just last two centuries we had USSR, Austria–Hungary, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia... each and every of them finally proving to be defective by design. And now, for some reason, the history repeats itself on larger scale... how do YOU think it will end ? (not to mention Poland itself, which was in EU-like union in times of First Republic, and, of course it also failed miserably).

Some form of unification and Europe-wide cooperations is a must; however, presently it's a disaster waiting to happen........................

[muttbutt]

Helmut Kohl is certainly not a hero of mine, but he once said the question of European unity is a question of war and piece.
If the Project EU does not succeed, we might end up back at each others throats sooner or later.
If we are brutally honest , Europeans are probably the most vicious and warlike people on the planet, we invented industrialised killing....some people will disagree with me, but we made killing and warfare an art form, while other parts of the Earth nation ward against nation tribe against tribe ect, we set about to entirely wipe out sub sections of humanity because we thought it was right....I'd really really not like to see a 21st century version of what we could do.

Maybe the EU isn't the perfect answer, but untill someone comes up with a better one, I say muddle through and work at it to make it better.


wow that was sappy:oops::oops:

[Wojtop]

Completly agree with both your posts muttbutt.
One more thing about this
"And now, for some reason, the history repeats itself on larger scale... how do YOU think it will end ? (not to mention Poland itself, which was in EU-like union in times of First Republic, and, of course it also failed miserably).
First Republic failed miserably but it assured the longest period of relative peace, stability and growth in this part of Europe (~300 years). EU can eventually fail for me if it manages to do the same.

[LordTyphus]

Kick the UK, Poland and Denmark out of the EU and we have a deal. For ****'s sake, when we are at it, kick everyone else out except France, Germany, Benelux and maybe Spain, and the EU will be a superpower. The First three, excluding part of Eastern Germany (and all of Spain bar the Spanish March) used to be the Frankish Empire. Total population would be 220 million. Powerful enough to be a superpower and yet very manageable because those countries are politically, culturally and historically connected. Bring the ECC back!

[budgie]

The EU is a sad joke.


Is that why the Euro is currently trading at $1.47 ?

[Breerman]

Kick the UK, Poland and Denmark out of the EU and we have a deal.
Why would EU kick out these three nations? Especially not you Huns as you were one of the founding nations.

Poland is probably the largest receiver of EU funds right now so. So maybe.


For ****'s sake, when we are at it, kick everyone else out except France, Germany, Benelux and maybe Spain, and the EU will be a superpower. The First three, excluding part of Eastern Germany (and all of Spain bar the Spanish March) used to be the Frankish Empire.
That was before the Franks bastardized their language and turned into a cheese factory.


Total population would be 220 million. Powerful enough to be a superpower and yet very manageable because those countries are politically, culturally and historically connected.
Yes, the intense connection is easy to see.

[dracon49]

Is that why the Euro is currently trading at $1.47 ?
Economically your strong ,but you dont have any influence on global issues(for example something that you would really like to have influence-the Israeli-Arab conflict)

[Snoshi]

Economically your strong ,but you dont have any influence on global issues(for example something that you would really like to have influence-the Israeli-Arab conflict)

spider.. Stop re-registering!

[Stormz_STA]

Poland is probably the largest receiver of EU funds right now so. So maybe.


And you know how much money Poland gives to EU budget? So maybe fvck you.

[dracon49]

spider.. Stop re-registering!
Who is Spider??

[LordTyphus]

Why would EU kick out these three nations? Especially not you Huns as you were one of the founding nations.



Huns? Me? Have you lost your damn mind. I'm a pure French from Normandy, born not too far from where William the Conqueror was born.

We will kick them out because they are Trojan horses and bring nothing to the EU.

[Telmar]

Huns? Me? Have you lost your damn mind. I'm a pure French from Normandy, born not too far from where William the Conqueror was born.

We will kick them out because they are Trojan horses and bring nothing to the EU.

It's not up to you. And that's good news.

[Sada]

Kick the UK, Poland and Denmark out of the EU and we have a deal. For ****'s sake, when we are at it, kick everyone else out except France, Germany, Benelux and maybe Spain, and the EU will be a superpower. The First three, excluding part of Eastern Germany (and all of Spain bar the Spanish March) used to be the Frankish Empire....Bring the ECC back!
I´d prefer the roman empire...or the hispano-habsburg empire giving northern marks(Arras, Strassbourgh, Besançon...) and southeast France back to where it belongs of course p-), because if you liked franc empire you had a good chance in 1940, now it´s late
well, actually I don´t like anything political fiction. The original club of France, Germany and Benelux lack another member, Italy and of course you defective Beatles lack the core economic strength in depth to be a world superpower, you simply wouldn´t be so rich without other members in the neighborhood. And talking about other guys in the barrio, and I don´t understand that cheap political excepticism that many eastern european people have brought into EU: It´s not as if people were longing for you and you came to EU with a pistol in your head, this it´s a bussiness to share, it´s not about being a neo-liberal political converse, I hate to be harsh but not everybody change or regime or regime 4 or 5 times in the last century. The enhancement of ECC to EU was excesively fast. It´s true that people value what it´s hard to obtain. In the case of Spain were many years of hard dealings and more years of developping our economy out of EU to adjusting our standards to theirs and not always for good, nobody here with the head on the shoulders wonder if the EU it´s a big fail, just what could be done better. And I miss ECC and I don´t miss being a political superpower, things come per se,there are books written about the soft power of EU and I wouldn´t say it´s something that don´t exist.

[Connaught Ranger]

If we are brutally honest , Europeans are probably the most vicious and warlike people on the planet, we invented industrialised killing....some people will disagree with me, but we made killing and warfare an art form, while other parts of the Earth nation ward against nation tribe against tribe ect, we set about to entirely wipe out sub sections of humanity because we thought it was right....I'd really really not like to see a 21st century version of what we could do.

Maybe the EU isn't the perfect answer, but untill someone comes up with a better one, I say muddle through and work at it to make it better.


wow that was sappy:oops::oops:

And lets not forget we exported our compatriots, some even with their consent, rofland some with the above skills, to America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, thereby expanding the European idea of civilization.

Connaught Ranger.woot

[Connaught Ranger]

Huns? Me? Have you lost your damn mind. I'm a pure French from Normandy, born not too far from where William the Conqueror was born.

We will kick them out because they are Trojan horses and bring nothing to the EU.

French? Were not the "Normans" settled Vikings from Scandinavia. :roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

- EU in one hand "punishes" US-based companies (Microsoft, Intel) for their market success, imposing fees or ordering development of products that simply don't sell out (Windows without MP) and in the other under disguise of "supporting invoation and technology" transfer huge amount of money to those companies (form EU taxpayers),

One may either repeat history or learn form it (or make stupid comments on what one can't comprehend).


Global comprehension is "Microsoft, Intel," is fair game for Worldwide Court Orders & fines, due to their (Microsoft) none existent work ethic in regards to making their products compatable to other systems.

Bill Gates is fair game to more than the E.U.p-)

Connaught Ranger.

[Switek]

Poland is probably the largest receiver of EU funds right now so. So maybe.
And you know how much money Poland gives to EU budget? So maybe fvck you. People are not aware that almost of the money Poland receives is consumed by EU institutions, organizations and firms... Most of them are founded as Polish but everyone has right to invest and earn money in Poland... Some are envy because only Poland did not sink during current crisis... I did wrote crisis? What crisis? :)

[Creampuff]

and some with the above skills, to America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Tasmania, thereby expanding the European idea of civilization.

Connaught Ranger.woot

Which is northern hemisphere speak for survival, wait the divine right to rule or survival of the fittest at a guess p-)

[Andy S]

All i want is the right to vote on who is making decisions on my behalf. Here we are in the UK busy devolving the country into region seats of power whilst joining a big super-state. People wanting independence yet happy to be run by an un-elected body.

We were promised a referendum should we sign up to join the European constitution yet although the "treaty" is 98% the same document because it's a treaty we get no vote. Bloody lying politicians.

[Creampuff]

Just out of interest, does anyone know if this is fact? the same entity that props up the west does so for the big C states? for some of you no doubt that would be the second big C. Supposedly two forms of governance that are poles apart? does point number 5 look familiar? and if so is the only difference between the two socialist state owned and privately owned by the socialist minded? just wondering? and would that make the west and such states Allies in incognito or something similar?

10 Conditions For Transition To Communism

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.[7]

[LordTyphus]

French? Were not the "Normans" settled Vikings from Scandinavia. :roll:

Hmm...The Normans were and are French, but the Norsemen were Vikings. Yes, a small group of Vikings, mostly males, settled in Normandy (hence the name), but by the time of William the Conqueror they had all been assimilated in the largely Gallo-Frank population. I reckon the Norman's core (like race) is Gallic (not many Franks settled in Normandy like in other Northern French regions) and his/her culture is obviously French. The epitome of Frenchness if you ask me, since the Parisian (the original ones prior to say the 13th century) and Angevins core are Frankish, and we all know the Frank originated somewhere East of the Danube, not in France like the Gauls.

[Connaught Ranger]

Hmm...The Normans were and are French, but the Norsemen were Vikings. Yes, a small group of Vikings, mostly males, settled in Normandy (hence the name), but by the time of William the Conqueror they had all been assimilated in the largely Gallo-Frank population. I reckon the Norman's core (like race) is Gallic (not many Franks settled in Normandy like in other Northern French regions) and his/her culture is obviously French. The epitome of Frenchness if you ask me, since the Parisian (the original ones prior to say the 13th century) and Angevins core are Frankish, and we all know the Frank originated somewhere East of the Danube, not in France like the Gauls.

IMHO even so its hard to claim to be pure French then, same goes for the people who claim to be pure British, Irish, Scots, & Welsh etc..etc.. there has been much intermingling of national bloodlines over the centuries.

[oldsoak]

I'm pure mongrel. No b*gger has the upper hand.

[Sada]

All i want is the right to vote on who is making decisions on my behalf. Here we are in the UK busy devolving the country into region seats of power whilst joining a big super-state. People wanting independence yet happy to be run by an un-elected body.

We were promised a referendum should we sign up to join the European constitution yet although the "treaty" is 98% the same document because it's a treaty we get no vote. Bloody lying politicians.
The fact it´s that UK signed the treaty, UK elects their own politicians as I know and just for the sake of auto-respect, if you aren´t interested in beign respected by other people, you british must do what your rerpresentatives signed in your name, you can´t use as a blackmail to the rest of europeans that you pretend to invalid your compromise with Lisbon. The case of Chequia it´s another thing that speaks volumes about the maturity of people about their collective obligations.

[LordTyphus]

I'm pure mongrel. No b*gger has the upper hand.

We are all Mongrels maybe except for the Irish and Scandinavians. By 'pure French', I'm referring to French as a culture with its myriad of intertwining ancestral bloodlines.

[gazell]

The fact it´s that UK signed the treaty, UK elects their own politicians as I know and just for the sake of auto-respect, if you aren´t interested in beign respected by other people, you british must do what your rerpresentatives signed in your name, you can´t use as a blackmail to the rest of europeans that you pretend to invalid your compromise with Lisbon. The case of Chequia it´s another thing that speaks volumes about the maturity of people about their collective obligations.

Sada, the EU is becoming a state. Some have serious points to raise about the how and under what terms. Member states are going to lose their sovereignity under unequal terms, that was the question raised. In what gangster fashion it was handled speaks volumes for the EU leadership. And it is not a good sign.

[Breerman]

And you know how much money Poland gives to EU budget? So maybe fvck you.
Let me re-phrase that then: Poland is probably the biggest net-receiver of EU funds.

[Derbedeu]

Sada, the EU is becoming a state. Some have serious points to raise about the how and under what terms. Member states are going to lose their sovereignity under unequal terms, that was the question raised. In what gangster fashion it was handled speaks volumes for the EU leadership. And it is not a good sign.

Exaggerate much? :roll:

[Sada]

Sada, the EU is becoming a state. Some have serious points to raise about the how and under what terms. Member states are going to lose their sovereignity under unequal terms, that was the question raised. In what gangster fashion it was handled speaks volumes for the EU leadership. And it is not a good sign.
Excuse me but not. Members states ceded some parcels of sovereignity to the EU, better said to the Common market or CEE or what it be any of its ancestors 50 years ago since the beginning, when states renounced to the sovereign right of any State deserving of that name to impose tariffs over the coke and steel of some of their neighbours: Was this a wrong decission?
One thing it´s the EU and a very different thing it´s the member states, each state has been and it´s the only responsable of discussing the benefits of some treaty and the convenience of signing it, and of course are the irish, just for naming other people, the only responsible of talking among themselves about if it´s any link between their current prosperity and the EU membership that has given to Ireland the very unfair privilege in my opinion of having a lower tax over societies: that´s what I call an unequal term.

[gazell]

Exaggerate much? :roll:

Maybe. Not much I can do about it though but hope that you are right.

Quite a few things happened recently that make me at the moment only admire your pure enthusiasm.


Excuse me but not. Members states ceded some parcels of sovereignity to the EU, better said to the Common market or CEE


Yes, so far so, we shall see what happens. 55% is pretty much a simple majority vote, time will tell what larger states will use it for.


One thing it´s the EU and a very different thing it´s the member states, each state has been and it´s the only responsable of discussing the benefits of some treaty and the convenience of signing it, and of course are the irish, just for naming other people, the only responsible of talking among themselves about if it´s any link between their current prosperity and the EU membership that has given to Ireland the very unfair privilege in my opinion of having a lower tax over societies: that´s what I call an unequal term.

I'm unsure if I understand you right.

There are a lot of instances of 'unequal' requirements in all sorts of areas, some are rather fair as the member states are different, their abilities and societies are not the same in all respects.

Some others I do not find fair.

[Gammelpreusse]

Maybe. Not much I can do about it though but hope that you are right.

Quite a few things happened recently that make me at the moment only admire your pure enthusiasm.



Yes, so far so, we shall see what happens. 55% is pretty much a simple majority vote, time will tell what larger states will use it for.



I'm unsure if I understand you right.

There are a lot of instances of 'unequal' requirements in all sorts of areas, some are rather fair as the member states are different, their abilities and societies are not the same in all respects.

Some others I do not find fair.

Solidarity hardly is ever "fair" to those poeple that contribute versus those people that recieve. But "fairness" is not what the EU is about, but compromise, and the strong helping the weak. The whole EU is based upon humanism. If you want cold blooded individual gain no matter what that does to your society (or in this case, the european nationstate environment), the US is the place to go.

[Andy S]

Sada, we were promised a referendum which we have NEVER had!

And bear in mind only 33% of people voted for Bliar out of maybe 60% of the population.

We were taken in on lies and have never had the opportunity to say yes or no other than voting for a political party.

If we join full time, I'm off!

[Gammelpreusse]

Sada, we were promised a referendum which we have NEVER had!

And bear in mind only 33% of people voted for Bliar out of maybe 60% of the population.

We were taken in on lies and have never had the opportunity to say yes or no other than voting for a political party.

If we join full time, I'm off!

Maybe then you should clean up at home first before going out and venting at places that are defined by that very home.

[Connaught Ranger]

Sada, we were promised a referendum which we have NEVER had!

And bear in mind only 33% of people voted for Bliar out of maybe 60% of the population.

We were taken in on lies and have never had the opportunity to say yes or no other than voting for a political party.

If we join full time, I'm off!

Promises are made to be broken, as if you listened to what every political party says prior to election you would know.

33% out of 66% plays no role in the equation, better blame all the lazy buggers who failed to get off their a r s e s e s and vote, it comes under a thing called Democracy. If you are not prepared to use your vote, then you have no right to complain.

Connaught Ranger.

[joka]

Certain Brits would do well to embrace concepts such as civility and manners. If you go to a party that you end up not liking, do you yell at the other guests and try to wreck the place or do you bid you adieus and leave?

[Danik]

Solidarity hardly is ever "fair" to those poeple that contribute versus those people that recieve. But "fairness" is not what the EU is about, but compromise, and the strong helping the weak. The whole EU is based upon humanism. If you want cold blooded individual gain no matter what that does to your society (or in this case, the european nationstate environment), the US is the place to go.

HUH? Strong helping weak? Compromise? Humanism?

Its based on mutual benefit not charity.

There is not one factually correct arrangement of words in that whole ramble.

[oldsoak]

Certain Brits would do well to embrace concepts such as civility and manners. If you go to a party that you end up not liking, do you yell at the other guests and try to wreck the place or do you bid you adieus and leave?

Depends on if you feel you've been treated like a t*** or not.
But I agree that we should leave rather than stay and grumble.

[gazell]

Solidarity hardly is ever "fair" to those poeple that contribute versus those people that recieve. But "fairness" is not what the EU is about, but compromise, and the strong helping the weak. The whole EU is based upon humanism. If you want cold blooded individual gain no matter what that does to your society (or in this case, the european nationstate environment), the US is the place to go.

You misunderstand, I was trying to point out that what seems 'unequal' is actually not. Call it fairness or solidarity, no matter.

I understand the principle and subscribe to it. However, it remains a principle.

And your very nice principles can crumble on hitting reality and ignoring human nature. We have been there before, it's called communism. Dead nice, just does not work. The classic about it:

'The factory is ours.' And they took it home all right.

As Switek hinted on this, a lot of 'net contributors' money actually lend in their own companies abroad. And they take it home all right.

I could go on and on, just won't, as it might and up as a flame, it's worse than Danik suggests in practice.

One example though, the only thing, towns etc. can apply for is prettying the place. So they do. In this crises, with people starving, they are putting up benches and fountains, which great though, as homeless, jobless people have where to lie down and have a wash. But plenty such nonsense and much more serious, too. I have the feeling you need to rethink this solidarity thingie on reality check level.

Once you mentioned the USA, I feel like pointing out on the principles side, that I'm quite proud that Hungary did not vote for the Holocaust law - just the one thing these ****ty libdems done right - I am very pleased to have Hungary in the USA, UK block on this one. This is getting into writing dogmas. All historians should feel free forever to research the Holocaust if they feel so, all nutjobs can deny any historical or scientific fact as they like. The encitment against a group, etc. laws quite well cover anything else.

Now, Hungary got bullied about that as having too much free speech by the EU. They can go to ****. By my free speech law as yet.woot

[theclash]

As a Brit I have no problem with this idea.

Together we're stronger.

[Derbedeu]

As a Brit I have no problem with this idea.

Together we're stronger.

Amen!


:hug:

[posa]

I agree with the concept of a super state, but not with a president Blair and why does anyone think he'll get the job anyway? :roll:

[gazell]

I agree with the concept of a super state, but not with a president Blair and why does anyone think he'll get the job anyway? :roll:

This was agreed on years back, I think. A German politician said, there wasn't any other candidate, really. It's up to him, so it would seem.

[Wahnsinn]

This was agreed on years back, I think. A German politician said, there wasn't any other candidate, really. It's up to him, so it would seem.

I could name a million people I would rather have as President of the EU over him.

[gazell]

I could name a million people I would rather have as President of the EU over him.

We are not getting to chose, working from a scenario here. If it economically works out for most in a few years time, all shall be forgiven.