Lieberman wants 'new Israeli foreign policy'

[GiladS]

Lieberman wants 'new Israeli foreign policy'

By HAVIV RETTIG GUR (updates@jpost.com)

The policy staff in Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's office has drawn up a secret memo calling for a radical refocus of Israeli foreign policy toward the developing world, The Jerusalem Post has learned.


According to sources, the foreign minister plans to bring the five-page preliminary policy paper to the ministry's senior professional staff in the coming days, to begin discussion on implementing what is being described as "guidelines for a whole new foreign policy."

According to a copy of the memo obtained by the Post, the new policy involves moving away from a "lone dependence" on the United States as a strategic ally, to developing broader and closer ties with other world powers and with the developing world.
The document, which was developed in recent weeks at Lieberman's request, focuses on three major shifts in policy: expanding ties with parts of the world "neglected" by previous governments, lowering international expectations of a breakthrough in negotiations with the Palestinians and creating a "zero-tolerance" policy for anti-Semitic expressions worldwide.


The memo chastises the Foreign Ministry for "becoming the 'Ministry for Palestinian Affairs,' with Israeli foreign policy almost entirely consumed by this single issue."
The almost exclusive focus of diplomacy on the Arab-Israeli conflict "has hurt Israeli interests in the [broader] international arena and in our relations with the United States and Europe," the memo states.


"There is no replacement for Israel's special relations with the United States," the memo continues, calling America "without a doubt Israel's best friend in the world.

"But," it continues, "the lone dependence on the United States is unhealthy for either side and presents difficulties for the US. Israel must build coalitions with other states on the basis of shared interests. In this way, it will expand and strengthen the circle of support, something which will be a relief for the US as well."

In particular, the memo protests as "inconceivable" that Israel's relations with the US "should center only on the Palestinian issue. There are many other important issues facing the two states, including regional security, the struggle against terrorism and cooperation in scientific research, economic [issues] and cultural [issues]."

In working to expand ties outside the US-Israel relationship, the document criticizes past Israeli policy vis-à-vis the rest of the world.

"For decades, Israel has neglected entire regions and continents, including Latin America, Africa, Eastern Europe and the Balkans, and Central and Southeast Asia. The cost of this neglect has been immense, and has been evident at the UN and other international forums."

According to the document, "it's hard to accept the claim that [Israel's difficulties in international forums] are due to 'the world being against us' when it is we who have abandoned vast swaths of the planet."

The memo faults past diplomats for "trying to 'catch' representatives [of African and Latin American states] at random, just moments before a decisive UN vote."

It calls such efforts "pathetic and reflecting a lack of effort or thorough systematic thinking. Can we really expect such countries, who receive neither visits from Israeli leaders nor [Israeli] investment, to vote in our favor?

"Only by building broad coalitions and through long-term investment in ties with continents and states that have been neglected for many years can Israel improve its ability to deal with the challenges ahead."

The document calls for a new surge of "meetings of senior officials, development and resource aid, strengthened economic and business ties, etc., [which] will create a situation in which Israel is not a lone actor in the international arena."

On the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the memo notes that "16 years have passed since the signing of the Oslo Accords. That is a long enough period, which saw governments established of the Left, Center and Right, to allow us to understand that peace cannot be imposed from above, but must be constructed from the foundations."

In an apparent critique of US President Barack Obama's efforts for an immediate jump-start of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, the memo says that attempts "to impose an immediate, total and comprehensive solution between Israel and the Palestinian Authority are preordained to fail."

Noting a series of failed "artificial" deadlines, including the 1993 five-year plan for the Oslo process, the renewal in 1999, and the efforts and deadlines of US presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, the document calls for lowered expectations of the current effort.

"Creating [exaggerated] expectations as though it is possible to arrive [in the near term] at a comprehensive settlement ending the conflict could lead us once again to disappointment and frustration that will damage our relations with the United States and Europe and lead to a violent response from the Palestinians."

The document calls for "a more realistic approach that emphasizes improving the situation on the ground, which will bring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to a calmer point that will take it off the international agenda.

"We can reach a temporary settlement between the sides, even without solving the core issues, including Jerusalem, the right of return and borders. This is the most that can be achieved realistically, and it is crucial to convince the United States and Europe of this."

The memo also seeks to bring a new focus on worldwide anti-Semitism.
"In addition to the classical forms [of anti-Semitism], we are seeing it manifested also in boycotts of Israeli goods and academic institutions, and in political-legal suits against Israeli leaders and military personnel visiting Europe."

It calls for "a policy of zero tolerance toward anti-Semitic expressions and blood libels against Jews and Israel."
Citing "attacks on Jewish communities around the world and the undermining of Israel's legitimate right to defend itself," the document says the Foreign Ministry "must not take such expressions lightly."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254861886009&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Chulo]

Seems like understanding they wont be getting as much support from U.S as they did before, its about time to look for some new friends.

[GiladS]

Israel considers recalling envoy to Sweden


Following Swedish counterpart's remarks in support of UN report claiming Israeli forces committed war crimes in Gaza, Deputy Foreign Minister Ayalon says Jerusalem must reexamine relations with Stockholm

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3787355,00.html

[dracon49]

Seems like understanding they wont be getting as much support from U.S as they did before, its about time to look for some new friends.
I dont think its the reason the reason i think is that you cant rely on one country and you need to make more friends like Lieberman said that we wonder why African countries vote against us in the UN-its because we hardly have ties with them so we need to have more friends and the other problem is that the Foreign ministry worked only on the Palestinian issue and you have other issues that are more important.

[Mu-Meson]

A perfectly rational and reasonable idea. There is lots of room for good relations between Israel and places like India and most of Asia (so long as Israel doesn't sell any sensitive military equipment to China).

[Eye]

As long as he doesn't use nukes in his foreign policy, I don't care.

[dracon49]

A perfectly rational and reasonable idea. There is lots of room for good relations between Israel and places like India and most of Asia (so long as Israel doesn't sell any sensitive military equipment to China).
If its our own tech we can do whatever we want.

[d_man]

If its our own tech we can do whatever we want.
sure we can.
and while we are at it US can sell what ever they want to syria or lebanon, after all its their tech...:roll:

[GiladS]

As long as he doesn't use nukes in his foreign policy, I don't care.

Yeah, the FM has such an authority... :roll:

Anyway, Lieberman is a lot more pragmatic than a lot of people outside Israel perceive him to be and that a lot of people in Israel are willing to admit.

So yeah, he might be more outspoken than people would like him to be but I myself like this trait as it is also rather rare among politicians.

[dracon49]

sure we can.
and while we are at it the US can sell what ever they want to syria or lebanon, after all its their tech...:roll:
To Syria? i dont think they would sell them even a bullet, because right now as i know they continue to sanction Syria and they still consider them as a pariah state because what they do in Lebanon Iraq and so on... and about Lebanon, they sell them stuff ,but i dont think they would sell them somehting serious(not because Israel oppose to it),rather because they will be afraid that Hizbollah will put their hands on it and they are also against Hizbollah and Iran but with Lebanon i cant say in 100%, but even if yes,Lebanon is very poor-what they can afford?...

[the_Wicked]

sure we can.
and while we are at it US can sell what ever they want to syria or lebanon, after all its their tech...:roll:

Yeah because the situation between China and the US can be even remotely compared to the one between Israel and Syria :roll:

[the_Wicked]

Good for us I say. There doesn't seem to be even a single point I disagree with, except maybe its being too harsh on previous governments (Israel does have pretty warm ties with India, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Serbia and many others. Of course they evaporate as if they were never there the second Israel takes an even slightly proactive approach against the Palestinians).

[Ssandro]

lieberman is lacking image management skills. He should be given media-training

[dracon49]

He is honest he is not like the politicians that say something and after the elections change their opinion and say "things that we see from here we didnt see from there" or stuff like that when they get high positions in the government.

[Breerman]

Israel considers recalling envoy to Sweden


Following Swedish counterpart's remarks in support of UN report claiming Israeli forces committed war crimes in Gaza, Deputy Foreign Minister Ayalon says Jerusalem must reexamine relations with Stockholm

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3787355,00.html
For those of you who don't know, Sweden have the EU presidency right, that's why Israel is acting so butthurt.

[dracon49]

Your hostile to Israel and in fact i cant understand how until now Israel didnt cut completly the ties with Sweden.

[d_man]

Your hostile to Israel and in fact i cant understand how until now Israel didnt cut completly the ties with Sweden.
are you spider1 by any chance??

[dracon49]

are you spider1 by any chance??

Who is it and what did he do?...
He had radical views or something like that?...

[d_man]

Who is it and what did he do?...
never mind....

[tanks_alot]

For those of you who don't know, Sweden have the EU presidency right, that's why Israel is acting so butthurt.

Right, because Sweden supporting a report accusing Israel of war crimes, despite the fact that it has more holes than a Swiss cheese (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736), has nothing to do with it. it's just Israel fighting fighting windmills for points back at home or what ever nonsense you guys usually use instead of looking in the mirror for a second.

[timetraveller]

So she wants Israel to have a new Image that Promote's


What exactly ???

Open air event's concert's in Westbank . gaza , Israel and become an alternative to Ibiza based in the Middle east ???

Or she's facin the fact's that Israeli politics and actions aren't all that supported by those elsewhere ???

[JJC]

lieberman is lacking image management skills. He should be given media-training
He definitely doesn't know how to handle European sensitivities, so for their standard he is almost like Taliban. He needs to be trained on how to be a soft spoken empty suit politician when he travels abroad and make fuzzy warm speeches so the world will perceive him in better light.

[gilgoul]

lieberman is lacking image management skills. He should be given media-training

The Israel leftist media has been branding him a fascist for years, and they are the only "frequentable" israelis in the international scene.
So even if Lieberman was actually proposing some great thing, it would be dismissed by the MSM and the "people in the know" on principle.
Everybody hates Lieberman because he takes a no nonsense pragmatic approach to any issue he encounters, and doesn't care to be PC or not.
This is his only big issue, he can't deliver because by not caring to kiss a few asses anytime, he finds himself isolated and has to backtrack quite often.

[Holycrusader]

Your hostile to Israel and in fact i cant understand how until now Israel didnt cut completly the ties with Sweden.

Hi spider1..

Sweden is cool country. Pls do not hate them so much...

[dracon49]

Hi spider1..

Sweden is cool country. Pls do not hate them so much...
I dont know who is spider and probably its a cool country, but not so much to Israel.

[Player]

Lieberman's place is in a jail; he's a real fascist, racist and only damages Israel's reputation and international relations. I could tell his whole foreign policy in just a few words - countries which don't lick our a$$ are anti-Semite and should GTFO.
Maybe I made it sound too simple, but his views are really that simplistic and unreasonable.

[GiladS]

Lieberman's place is in jail; he's a real fascist and only damages Israel's reputation.

The fact that you and many other of his critics couldn't come up with a better argument other than "he's a fascist" or "he should be thrown in jail" only emphasizes that you don't have a real argument against him.

His party recieved 15 mandates and thus he earned his position, whether you like it or not.




I could tell his whole foreign policy in just a few words - countries which don't lick our a$$ are anti-Semite and should GTFO.
Maybe I made it sound too simple, but his views are really that simplistic and unreasonable.


Yeah, instead we should have a spineless yes man who will say that it is raning when we are being pissed upon.

[Player]

The fact that you and many other of his critics couldn't come up with a better argument other than "he's a fascist" or "hes should be thrown in jail" only emphasizes that you don't have a real argument against him.

Just stating the obvious. :)


Yeah, instead we should have a spineless yes man who will say that it is raning when we are being pissed upon.

What would Israel gain from damaging its relations even further with the West or anyone else who doesn't automatically stand behind everything Israel does? Do you think that acting like a little kid (with Lieberman in the office) is any better? This guy has got to learn a lot about diplomacy.

[IDF_TANKER]

The Israel leftist media has been branding him a fascist for years, and they are the only "frequentable" israelis in the international scene.
So even if Lieberman was actually proposing some great thing, it would be dismissed by the MSM and the "people in the know" on principle.
Everybody hates Lieberman because he takes a no nonsense pragmatic approach to any issue he encounters, and doesn't care to be PC or not.
This is his only big issue, he can't deliver because by not caring to kiss a few asses anytime, he finds himself isolated and has to backtrack quite often.

Basically the Israeli Ron Paul. :)

[GiladS]

Just stating the obvious. :)


It's not obvious, it's simply slander.


What would Israel gain from damaging its relations even further with the West or anyone else who doesn't automatically stand behind everything Israel does?

So Scandinavian is now the 'West'? p-)

If a country, backs an erroneous report that accuses the IDF with "war crimes" (this goes way beyond not standing behind Israel) then I don't think there's much to damage in terms of relations with that country but rather to show that Israel won't stand such a thing.

Diplomacy isn't just ass kissing as you seem to perceive it to be, one can actually have a spine.

[Player]

So Scandinavian is now the 'West'? p-)

AFAIK a part of it.


If a country, backs an erroneous report that accuses the IDF with "war crimes" (this goes way beyond not standing behind Israel) then I don't think there's much to damage in terms of relations with that country but rather to show that Israel won't stand such a thing.

At least this could be solved in a diplomatic manner, like the saying "let's agree to disagree", rather than making the matters even worse. Being such a hardliner with a macho attitude does no good to this country, really.

[GiladS]

AFAIK a part of it.


So now we need to appease and satisfy every single country? :roll:



At least this could be solved in a diplomatic manner, like the saying "let's agree to disagree", rather than making it even worse. Being such a hardliner with a macho attitude does no good to this country, really.


You perceive diplomacy to be the art of hypocrisy and appeasment, it doesn't have to work that way.

Diplomacy can have teeth.

And just as Sweden has the right to back a problamatic report which is opposed by Israel (and even the PA has avoided showing support for), so does Israel have the right to return its envoy.

[Player]

So now we need to appease and satisfy every single country? :roll:

It's not just Sweden but also the US according to the article.


You perceive diplomacy to be the art of hypocrisy and appeasment, it doesn't have to work that way.

No, I perceive diplomacy as an art of avoiding needless problems on a practical way.


Diplomacy can have teeth.

Not when there is nothing to eat.


And just as Sweden has the right to back a problematic report which is opposed by Israel (and even the PA has avoided showing support for) , so does Israel have the right to return its envoy.

The fact that a country has a right to express its political stance and criticism on Israel's defense policy doesn't mean that this country is hostile. Of course Israel has the right to return its envoy (heck, it doesn't even need an excuse if it really wants to) but this is a hostile act as opposed to a country criticizing policy or an act of another country. Mind you, if Sweden was truly anti-Israel, it would go much further than just approving some news report.

[GiladS]

It's not just Sweden but also the US according to the article.


Then you should work on your reading comprehension skills.



No, I perceive diplomacy as an art of avoiding needless problems on a practical way.



Sweeping a problem under the rug doesn't make it go away.



The fact that a country has a right to express its political stance and criticism on Israel's defense policy doesn't mean that this country is hostile.


This isn't mere criticism of Israel's defense policy but much more than that. Backing the 'Goldstone Report' is a de facto agreement with the claim that the IDF commited "war crimes" in the Gaza Strip, something which apart from hurting our image also opens the possibilty of legal action against Israelis in uniform in the future.

Israel can't tolerate this.



Of course Israel has the right to return its envoy (heck, it doesn't even need an excuse if it wants to) but this is a hostile act as opposed to a country diplomatically criticizing policy or an act of another country.


It isn't anymore hostile than Sweden's support for the 'Goldstone Report'.



Mind you, if Sweden was truly anti-Israel, it would go much further than just supporting some news report.


Now you are mixing Sweden's support of the 'Goldstone Report' with it's lack of action regarding the Aftonbladet Blood Libel.

However these two recent incidents should tell us something regarding Swedish policies towards Israel and how much Israel shouldn't treasure its relations with that country.

[GB_FXST]

While there may be an issue with Lieberman’s style and persona, I do not disagree with the policy described in the article. Some prudent observations and actions are noted.




... snip ...

This isn't mere criticism of Israel's defense policy but much more than that. Backing the 'Goldstone Report' is a de facto agreement with the claim that the IDF commited "war crimes" in the Gaza Strip, something which apart from hurting our image also opens the possibilty of legal action against Israelis in uniform in the future.

Israel can't tolerate this.

... snip ...



Well said. The Goldstone report has the potential for setting a terrible precedent in International Law: Immunity for terrorist entities that 1) purposefully co-mingle with civilians, and 2) deliberately attack civilians. The resulting lawfare will undermine the ability of all nations to successfully prevail in asymmetrical conflicts. It’s a curse to Israel and the civilized world. Israel is right to take harsh action.

[klong]

Lieberman likes the present status quo = perpetual conflict. His latest statements only confirm his warped state of mind.

The best thing for him (and his mindless followers), would be to imprison him at one of the same jails, where they now hold Palestinians. There, they would learn about human suffering, and also about the value of peace. They would come out, as new men.

[GB_FXST]

Lieberman likes the present status quo = perpetual conflict. His latest statements only confirm his warped state of mind.

The best thing for him (and his mindless followers), would be to imprison him at one of the same jails, where they now hold Palestinians. There, they would learn about human suffering, and also about the value of peace. They would come out, as new men.

So much for democracy and judicial due process, or are such concepts reserved only for people with whom you agree?

[klong]

So much for democracy and judicial due process, or are such concepts reserved only for people with whom you agree?

No. Put him and his henchmen to trial. Otherwise, the entire population of Israel will lose more than they, at the present time, think is possible.

[GB_FXST]

No. Put him and his henchmen to trial. Otherwise, the entire population of Israel will lose more than they, at the present time, think is possible.

Upon what are they indicted? What is the alleged criminal act?

Do note, that they are in office as a result of a legal democratic process. And, a legal democratic process exists to remove them from office.

BTW, where do you live?

[klong]

Upon what are they indicted? What is the alleged criminal act?

BTW, where do you live?

"Crimes against humanity" is one suggested alleged act. But this will hardly seem logical to you ? I feel, that failure actively to seek peace at such a time, is just criminally negligent.

What difference does it make to you, where I come from ?

[GiladS]

"Crimes against humanity" is one suggested alleged act. But this will hardly seem logical to you ? I feel, that failure actively to seek peace at such a time, is just criminally negligent.



Seems like you are the one who has a warped state of mind.

[klong]

Seems like you are the one who has a warped state of mind.

Not at all ! Why would you think such a thing ?

I live well with my neighbours, who come from many different ethnic and religious backgrounds.

[GB_FXST]

"Crimes against humanity" is one suggested alleged act. But this will hardly seem logical to you ? I feel, that failure actively to seek peace at such a time, is just criminally negligent.

What difference does it make to you, where I come from ?

What specific crime against humanity do you allege against Lieberman?

That you feel a crime has been committed does not make it so.


I have my own ideas of criminal negligence:

It is criminally negligent for a duly elected Government of Israel fail to protect its constituency from hostile elements, including those that 1) deny the legitimacy of the state, 2) seek the destruction of the state, and 3) negotiate in bad faith.

It is criminally negligent for a Palestinian leadership to perpetuate a conflict in the futile hopes of eradicating the state of Israel. Further, Palestinian leadership has engaged in criminally negligent behavior by refusing to accept a compromise and a state that would serve as the basis for peace.


You can see where I am from; it is only fair that you provide me the same courtesy. But, it’s more than simple etiquette. Is your house in order; are there no alleged human rights issues that require resolution in your home country? What are you doing to resolve them? And if you are doing nothing why the interest in Israel?

Failing an answer, I’ll assume you are just a meddling hypocrite.

[GiladS]

Not at all ! Why would you think such a thing ?


Because your posts are delusional and childish.

Lieberman is a war criminal because his foregin policy doesn't sit well with your political views?

Not only is this childish slander against Lieberman but a trivializing and a mockery of the term 'war crime'.



I live well with my neighbours, who come from many different ethnic and religious backgrounds.


Good for you...

[Player]

Lieberman is a war criminal because his foregin policy doesn't sit well with your political views?

Lieberman is a type of a hardliner that would commit a genocide on the Palestinians if he had the opportunity, such racists shouldn't be supported.

[GiladS]

Lieberman is a type of a hardliner that would commit a genocide on the Palestinians if he had the opportunity, such racists shouldn't be supported.

More baseless slander instead of real arguments... :roll:

[Player]

More baseless slander instead of real arguments... :roll:

Sometimes common sense is enough.

[GiladS]

Sometimes common sense is enough.

And it seems you lack it.

You claim Lieberman would be genocidal towards the Palestinians yet he supports a two state solution... so I'm interested on what you base such an assumption.

Fact of the matter is that you are no different from the same people who called Rabin and Peres "Judenrat" during the early 90s.

[Player]

And it seems you lack it.

Nope, seems that you do because you ignore his racist attitude towards the Arabs/Palestinians as well as his radical nationalistic and fascist views and ideas.


You claim Lieberman would be genocidal towards the Palestinians yet he supports a two state solution... interesting.

You forgot to mention his transfer plan.

You're supporting a monster.

[klong]

What specific crime against humanity do you allege against Lieberman?

That you feel a crime has been committed does not make it so.


I have my own ideas of criminal negligence:

It is criminally negligent for a duly elected Government of Israel fail to protect its constituency from hostile elements, including those that 1) deny the legitimacy of the state, 2) seek the destruction of the state, and 3) negotiate in bad faith.

It is criminally negligent for a Palestinian leadership to perpetuate a conflict in the futile hopes of eradicating the state of Israel. Further, Palestinian leadership has engaged in criminally negligent behavior by refusing to accept a compromise and a state that would serve as the basis for peace.


You can see where I am from; it is only fair that you provide me the same courtesy. But, it’s more than simple etiquette. Is your house in order; are there no alleged human rights issues that require resolution in your home country? What are you doing to resolve them? And if you are doing nothing why the interest in Israel?

Failing an answer, I’ll assume you are just a meddling hypocrite.


The alleged crime is failure to seriously seek peace and reconciliation. Palestinians have also committed criminal acts, out desperation or whatever. But they are still weak, and still need your cooperation and goodwill to attain even a marginal state of existence.

Why not seriously try to help them, now, after all the failures made by both sides, in the past ? Gratitude and rewards could be great.

I believe that without peaceful relations to the neighbours, Israel will not last too much longer.

You ask many "Why's". We have our problems here, and it's not always easy to agree with present government policies. However, solving the Israel/Arab issues, will dramatically reduce terrorism and scepticism. It will thereby be a shining light, for us all. It will also ensure Israel's status as a great nation in perpetuity.

[Player]

Fact of the matter is that you are no different from the same people who called Rabin and Peres "Judenrat" during the early 90s.

What do you mean by that? Please elaborate.

[Snoshi]

Why not seriously try to help them, now, after all the failures made by both sides, in the past ? Gratitude and rewards could be great.
Israel have done too much for the Palestinians.. Giving away Gaza is just on the big things that backfired in its face..

Palestinians like other Arabs only understand force.. As soon as you show your "sensetive" or "weak" side they will instantly take advantage of it..

What do you propose?

[tanks_alot]

The alleged crime is failure to seriously seek peace and reconciliation. Palestinians have also committed criminal acts, out desperation or whatever. But they are still weak, and still need your cooperation and goodwill to attain even a marginal state of existence.

Why not seriously try to help them, now, after all the failures made by both sides, in the past ? Gratitude and rewards could be great.

I believe that without peaceful relations to the neighbours, Israel will not last too much longer.

You ask many "Why's". We have our problems here, and it's not always easy to agree with present government policies. However, solving the Israel/Arab issues, will dramatically reduce terrorism and scepticism. It will thereby be a shining light, for us all. It will also ensure Israel's status as a great nation in perpetuity.

You're just throwing words into the air, how about you give us your vision of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, step by step?

[GiladS]

Nope, seems that you do because you ignore his racist attitude towards the Arabs/Palestinians as well as his radical nationalistic and fascist views and ideas.


How about you stop reciting slanderess slogans and start bringing forth real arguments for a change?

He recognizes the Palestinians right to a state and yet you claim him to be radical and a racist. rofl

Had Lieberman or his party been what you describe him to be, he wouldn't have entered the Knesset and certainly not head the Foreign Ministry.



You forgot to mention his transfer plan.

You're supporting a monster.


I take it you mean the 'Populated-Area Exchange Plan' or better known as the 'Lieberman Plan'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieberman_Plan

Hardly monstrous, this is actually the main example I bring up when asked why I like his out of the box thinking.

Again, try bringing forth all the facts and details instead of slogans.

[GiladS]

What do you mean by that? Please elaborate.

You spread baseless slander just like they did.

[GB_FXST]

The alleged crime is failure to seriously seek peace and reconciliation. Palestinians have also committed criminal acts, out desperation or whatever. But they are still weak, and still need your cooperation and goodwill to attain even a marginal state of existence.

Why not seriously try to help them, now, after all the failures made by both sides, in the past ? Gratitude and rewards could be great.

I believe that without peaceful relations to the neighbours, Israel will not last too much longer.

You ask many "Why's". We have our problems here, and it's not always easy to agree with present government policies. However, solving the Israel/Arab issues, will dramatically reduce terrorism and scepticism. It will thereby be a shining light, for us all. It will also ensure Israel's status as a great nation in perpetuity.

The only thing I can add to the comments below is the Israeli cities that turned into abattoirs after Oslo also speak to the folly of the policy of give “peace a chance.”


Israel have done too much for the Palestinians.. Giving away Gaza is just on the big things that backfired in its face..

Palestinians like other Arabs only understand force.. As soon as you show your "sensetive" or "weak" side they will instantly take advantage of it..

What do you propose?


You're just throwing words into the air, how about you give us your vision of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, step by step?

[klong]

You're just throwing words into the air, how about you give us your vision of peace between Israel and the Palestinians, step by step?


What do I propose ? You are on the ground, and you know best. To suggest, there must be a Palestinian state. Massive amounts of money must flow into it, in order to create a state with a similar standard of living for the people, as exists in Israel. Over time, when standard of living parity has been achieved, there will be nothing left to fight about. This development model has been proven in Asia (Malaysia, Singapore, even Indonesia). "Religious" differences dissipate, when you can give your family a good and fair chance at life.

This can also be done between you, and your neighbours. Even France and Germany managed it, so it is no pipe dream. The cost in money is insignificant, compered with the benefits for all concerned.

[tanks_alot]

What do I propose ? You are on the ground, and you know best. To suggest, there must be a Palestinian state. Massive amounts of money must flow into it, in order to create a state with a similar standard of living for the people, as exists in Israel. Over time, when standard of living parity has been achieved, there will be nothing left to fight about. This development model has been proven in Asia (Malaysia, Singapore, even Indonesia). "Religious" differences dissipate, when you can give your family a good and fair chance at life.

This can also be done between you, and your neighbours. Even France and Germany managed it, so it is no pipe dream. The cost in money is insignificant, compered with the benefits for all concerned.

This has and is being done now already. huge amounts of money have being given to the Palestinians from all over the world. this brings a number of problems. the first is corruption in the Palestinian leadership, there is no way to monitor to where the money goes, you can read about Arafat's bank account if you're interested and Soha Arafat is living the good life in Paris (i think it's Paris) now, with money which was intended for the Palestinian people.
Because there is no way to monitor the path the money takes, it also means it could be used to buy weapons to be used against Israel.

Another issue is that having the Israel and the international community take care of all of the Palestinian people's needs, lifts that burden away from the Palestinian leadership and allows them to focus on arming themselvs, knowing that the UN will care for the people's needs. this is very true in regards to the Hamas regime in the Gaza Strip.

However, Israel is removing checkpoints all over the West Bank, allowing the PA police to gain strength etc' in order to improve the living standards in the West Bank and also in order to show the people of Gaza how things can improve if they'll work with israel instead against it.

This has all been done before and ended up exploding in Israel's face, causing thousends of Israeli casualties in the second Intifada. Israel is taking a big chance by doing so again, however this is by no means some sort of magic solution.

Personally i believe that there is no way to end this conflict at this time, as it spans beyond the borders of Israel and the Palestinian territories and involves outside players that use this conflict as a proxy for thier own interests.

[GB_FXST]

... snip ...

Personally i believe that there is no way to end this conflict at this time, as it spans beyond the borders of Israel and the Palestinian territories and involves outside players that use this conflict as a proxy for thier own interests.

QFT

Iran, given any opportunity, will spoil any chance for peace.

[klong]

This has and is being done now already. huge amounts of money have being given to the Palestinians from all over the world. this brings a number of problems. the first is corruption in the Palestinian leadership, there is no way to monitor to where the money goes, you can read about Arafat's bank account if you're interested and Soha Arafat is living the good life in Paris (i think it's Paris) now, with money which was intended for the Palestinian people.
Because there is no way to monitor the path the money takes, it also means it could be used to buy weapons to be used against Israel.

Another issue is that having the Israel and the international community take care of all of the Palestinian people's needs, lifts that burden away from the Palestinian leadership and allows them to focus on arming themselvs, knowing that the UN will care for the people's needs. this is very true in regards to the Hamas regime in the Gaza Strip.

However, Israel is removing checkpoints all over the West Bank, allowing the PA police to gain strength etc' in order to improve the living standards in the West Bank and also in order to show the people of Gaza how things can improve if they'll work with israel instead against it.

This has all been done before and ended up exploding in Israel's face, causing thousends of Israeli casualties in the second Intifada. Israel is taking a big chance by doing so again, however this is by no means some sort of magic solution.

Personally i believe that there is no way to end this conflict at this time, as it spans beyond the borders of Israel and the Palestinian territories and involves outside players that use this conflict as a proxy for thier own interests.


These times require flexibility for all concerned, but above all, faith in a future common sphere of prosperity. To progress, the past can only play second fiddle to the future.

Israel should (please) seriously and unambiguously do it's utmost to achieve reconciliation the neighbours. Worldwide support would be guaranteed.

However, should these attempts fail, because of Arab intransigence, Israel would have significant world support for their presently preferred status quo situation.

On the other hand, a comprehensive peace would would have far greater rewards for Israel, and probably for all others concerned, than the present way of doing things.

Therefore, what does Israel have to lose, if it actively promotes and creates reconciliation with Arab neighbours ?

[tanks_alot]

However, should these attempts fail, because of Arab intransigence, Israel would have significant world support for their presently preferred status quo situation.

Like, after the Oslo talks turned into the Second Intifada? or did you mean like Israel's withdrawal of south Lebanon ended up leading into the second Lebanon war? or perheps you were talking about Israel's pullout from the Gaza Strip which led to the Hamas rise to power and operation Cast Lead?

Israel will always be the bad guy as far as the world is concerned, so we really shouldn't be jumping through hoops to please anyone at our own expanse.


Therefore, what does Israel have to lose, if it actively promotes and creates reconciliation with Arab neighbours ?Thousends of dead Israeli citizens if it will fail.

However now you are just throwing words into the air again. explain to me how this reconciliation can take place? speak to me with real ideas, not just pretty words.

[GiladS]

Therefore, what does Israel have to lose, if it actively promotes and creates reconciliation with Arab neighbours ?

We tried to reconcile the Palestinians with the 2005 Gaza pullout... saw how great that worked out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j61ktUeDDuo

[dracon49]

Like Bogie Ya'alon said that the army had to clean the dove of peace after the politicians brought it.

[Breerman]

Right, because Sweden supporting a report accusing Israel of war crimes, despite the fact that it has more holes than a Swiss cheese (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736), has nothing to do with it. it's just Israel fighting fighting windmills for points back at home or what ever nonsense you guys usually use instead of looking in the mirror for a second.
The Israeli Anti-Sweden campaign happened to start just after Sweden took over the EU presidency a few months ago. Normally we're a small nation with not much political pull.

Israel normally doesn't acknowledge any humanitarian criticism so it's basically more of the same. What is worrying is that Israel under this government is getting more and more like her Arab neighbors. If you disagree you just say so. This current path will alienate friends and create new enemies.

[tanks_alot]

The Israeli Anti-Sweden campaign happened to start just after Sweden took over the EU presidency a few months ago. Normally we're a small nation with not much political pull.

What Israeli anti-Swedish campaign?


Israel normally doesn't acknowledge any humanitarian criticism so it's basically more of the same.

No, it's not more of the same. this report has reached levels unseen before and has much bigger ramifications.

And is that really your choice for an argument? Israel normally doesn't acknowledge humanitarian criticism, so it doesn't matter if my governmnet supports a report that accuses Israel of war crimes, despite the fact that it is easily debunked?


What is worrying is that Israel under this government is getting more and more like her Arab neighbors. If you disagree you just say so. This current path will alienate friends and create new enemies.

Right, i would think of some sort of witty rebuttal, however unfortunately it appears i am filled with uncontrollable rage and have declared a Jihad against you for implying i am becoming like my neighbours.

We are now in a blood feud.

Have a nice day.

[the_Wicked]

Right, because Sweden supporting a report accusing Israel of war crimes, despite the fact that it has more holes than a Swiss cheese (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1736), has nothing to do with it. it's just Israel fighting fighting windmills for points back at home or what ever nonsense you guys usually use instead of looking in the mirror for a second.

Damn that link you've posted has shocked me... I can't understand how can any sane person who is not brainwashed with Arab propaganda can honestly consider the Goldstone report as anything but the dung pile it is. I mean, has willful ignorance of contradicting evidence become THAT common throughtout the world?