Prussia - The Original name for Germany ?

[timetraveller]

Why did Prussia change it's name to Germany and in what year was it ?

[Alpha-17]

Prussia was just one nation in what we now consider to be Germany. For years there were several independent nations, with Prussia as the most powerful. They weren't united until the late 19th century. Look it up on wiki for the exact date.

[Johnny_H02]

Pretty sure it was 1870 when Germany unified.

[little icebear]

with Prussia as the most powerful

*grabs popcorn and waits until an Austrian finds this thread* p-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_dualism ;)

@ Threadstarter who appears to know next to nothing about European History: Here you go.

First this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire from the middle ages until this short French guy came along and turned Europe upside-down...

then this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Confederation during 19th century...

until Bismarck came along and fought a war with France after which we ended up with this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary

...which was done away with after our defeat in World War 1. Then Weimar Republic which lasted till some guy named Hitler appeared on the scene. Maybe you´ve heard of him.


Pretty sure it was 1870 when Germany unified.

Almost. 1871.

[Kitsune]

After the Napoleonic Wars, the Austrian led German Confederation had been established, which had been led by Austria. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation)


In 1866, there was a war between Prussia and Austria, which Prussia won. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War).

After it, the Kingdom of Prussia formed the North German Confederation in 1867. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Confederation)


Then, in the Summer of 1870, there was yet another war, this time between France and a Prussian led German coalition, which Prussia won again. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War)

Just a few weeks before it ended, on January 18th 1871, the new nation of Germany was declared and formed out of the North German Confederation. The main difference was that this new state now also included Southern German states (like Bavaria and Swabia) which were allied with Prussia in this war. Austria did not join however. Otherwise, the differences were not so great, mostly the constitution of the North German Confederation was adopted for the new state, thus, the resulting German nation was essentially a rather lose kind of federated state.

The most spectacular difference was that the King of Prussia also added "Deutscher Kaiser" ("German Emperor") to his titles since especially Bismarck saw this as giving additional weight among the various Kings in Germany (Bavaria for example was a Kingdom). This was actually a massively discussed step, although the actual powers in Germany granted to Wilhelm I were essentially the ones of a president, and largely those the constitution of the North German Confederation had given him over that state. The title was carefully worded and explicitely not "Kaiser von Deutschland" ("Emperor of Germany") to prevent that the Austrians, or even the German Swiss or Bavarians felt offended, since until that time the word "Germany" had always been used in the ethnical sense.

[Bohemoth]

Prussia practically ceased to exist as a political entity when Hitler took power in Germany in 1933 and gained total legaslative power with his 'Ermächtigungsgesetze', although the formal dissolution of Prussia would not come until 1947 when the allied control council divided its territory into smaller part states.

Prussia has nothing to do with Nazi Germany. As a matter of fact Prussia especially under the rule of the King 'Frederick the Great' is renowned for its core values of tolerance, sense of justice, modesty and fear of god - all summed up in Prussias motto of "Suum cuique").

Prussia doesn't exist politically anymore, but certain values like punctuality, obedience, straightforwardness, dilligence, conscientiousness, austerity, sense of order are still typical German charasteristics originating from the times when Prussia ruled the German states.

Long live Prussia. :)

[AroundTheCorner]

I find the question offending. Prussians are not the whole of the Volk.



F*ck Prussia... Bayern rules!!!!

[Bohemoth]

I find the question offending. Prussians are not the whole of the Volk.



[COLOR=white]F*ck Prussia... Bayern rules!!!![COLOR] <=== smart a*s :-)

Haha, all German states were under Prussian rule and formed the entity called 'German Reich' and later 'Weimarer Republic'. German states like your beloved Bavaria were and still are 'Free States' with certain very very limited autonomies.

[Vityaz]

Still waiting for Russia to change the name of Kaliningrad Oblast' to 'Vostochnaya Prussiya.'

[loganinkosovo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SBTTUxL76o

[James]

Before Prussia there was the Holy Roman Empire.

[Jippo]

Why did Prussia change it's name to Germany and in what year was it ?

When did Prussia change its name to Deutschland? :) (<- only joking)

History of the names is interesting. Germany was called Germany by foreigners already 2000 years ago. :)

Funny thing about Finnish language is that whole Germany is still called Saksa after the Saxon tribes.

[Difool]

Still waiting for Russia to change the name of Kaliningrad Oblast' to 'Vostochnaya Prussiya.'
Altough the name Leningrad has changed to St. Peterburg the Oblast is still named Leningradskaya.
But why not?



Haha, all German states were under Prussian rule and formed the entity called 'German Reich' and later 'Weimarer Republic'. German states like your beloved Bavaria were and still are 'Free States' with certain very very limited autonomies.
Prussia and Austria were the dominating states after the napoleonic wars. But Austria didn't want to give up Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia as well as it's emperor his crown.
So the result has been the Kleindeutsche Lösung (Small-German solution) in 1871 which means a reunification without Austria.

[Difool]

When did Prussia change its name to Deutschland? :) (<- only joking)

History of the names is interesting. Germany was called Germany by foreigners already 2000 years ago. :)

Funny thing about Finnish language is that whole Germany is still called Saksa after the Saxon tribes.

The name Deutsch (earlier Teutsch) is from the Teuton tribe. Alemania is from the Alemanian tribe.
Just German (Ger=spear and man=man) is a neutral name given by the Romans.

[el borracho]

A Latin professor told us once that similar to Native American tribal names translating to "the people" "Teutsch" was from the Latin root "totus" meaning "everyone" and "Alemani" was from the old German "alle mannen" (all people). I've always found that interesting.

[Difool]

A Latin professor told us once that similar to Native American tribal names translating to "the people" "Teutsch" was from the Latin root "totus" meaning "everyone" and "Alemani" was from the old German "alle mannen" (all people). I've always found that interesting.
Right, "alle mannen" means all men and it's most likely the origin of Alemani.

As for the name Teuton the origin is not clear. Some say it may be even Celtic.
It may be that said something wrong here.
The old German word for native speakers "diutisc". And this word might be the origin for "Deutsch".

[Hildemel]

I find the question offending. Prussians are not the whole of the Volk.

How is it offending? It just means he doesn't kow much about German history.

[el borracho]

Right, "alle mannen" means all men and it's most likely the origin of Alemani.

The old German word for native speakers "diutisc". And this word might be the origin for "Deutsch".

That's ringing a bell, the class was over 10 years ago so my memory is a little rusty. He mentioned "diutisc" then said it came from "thiudisc" and spelled it out in old German (with the archaic letter "thorn" which represented the "th" sound) then explained the "totus" connection.

[toki]

How is it offending? It just means he doesn't kow much about German history.

And German history isn't an easy topic. Even though that is basic knowledge.

I know that my place turned to Prussia in 1815. Before that the frenchies had a stint here. Napoleonic grand duchy of Berg, before that... well you can break it down to dozens of eras.

German history is widely bound to local history.
It's very heterogeneous.


Before Prussia there was the Holy Roman Empire.

Also called "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation". Even though it was anything but a nation. The "German" though was the common denominator.

[Silent Reader]

btw

there are occassionally plans to merge some of the German states so that there are less state legilatures and one can save money etc... some people wat to reduce the number of states from the current 16 to even 11 or 12.

One such merger would be the merger between Berlin and Brandenburg to form the state of what some people would then want to call the state of Prussia.

So there is a distant and small chance that Prussia would be reborn.. although as a state of Germany ;)

[Difool]

btw

there are occassionally plans to merge some of the German states so that there are less state legilatures and one can save money etc... some people wat to reduce the number of states from the current 16 to even 11 or 12.

One such merger would be the merger between Berlin and Brandenburg to form the state of what some people would then want to call the state of Prussia.

So there is a distant and small chance that Prussia would be reborn.. although as a state of Germany ;)
But not on Prussian territory. Brandenburg is not Prussia.

[Gammelpreusse]

But not on Prussian territory. Brandenburg is not Prussia.

Jain. You have the general area called Prussia, and you have the former nation called Prussia, which in it's core basicly consisted of East Prussia, West Prussia and the Mark Brandenburg. Calling Berlin/Brandenburg Prussia would not be wrong, though lacking key components in the east.

That said, I do not think it makes much sense to bring back that name without the people and culture that was behind it. Much of the Prussian soul and attitues has gone over to all of Germany today, that is Prussia's heritage. We even still have the chancellery.

It should be clear that the modern german nation has its roots in Prussia.

And, given I am from carneval country, the Prussians certainly were always good for a laugh, hehe.

[Difool]

Jain.
Not Jain!
The Duke of Brandenburg has also been the King of Prussia. And because king sounds better than duke he called his whole reign Prussia, although Brandenburg has been the heart of it and Berlin it's capital.

[Gammelpreusse]

The Duke of Brandenburg has also been the King of Prussia. And because king sounds to be more than a duke he called his whole reign Prussia, although Berlin has been the capital.

Very much "jain", no matter how much footstomping you see required ;)
The reasons for that simply having been East Prussia lying outside of the boundaries of the holy roman empire, in which he could not crown himself King as one of the Kurfürsten.

But as you basicly just stated yourself, the roots of Prussia actually are found in Brandenburg.

[little icebear]

So there is a distant and small chance that Prussia would be reborn.. although as a state of Germany ;)

http://www.inwo.de/pics/schramm.jpg

Oh, I don´t think this would go down well with Lothar Dombrowski... "Leave Prussia alone!"

[Difool]

Very much "jain", no matter how much footstomping you see required ;)
The reasons for that simply having been East Prussia lying outside of the boundaries of the holy roman empire, in which he could not crown himself King as one of the Kurfürsten.

But as you basicly just stated yourself, the roots of Prussia actually are found in Brandenburg.

I have to footstomp again. Brandenburg and Prussia are and have been two different states. And calling a possible Brandenburg-Berlin-Bundesland Prussia is just historicaly false.

[Gammelpreusse]

I have to footstomp again. Brandenburg and Prussia are and have been two different states. And calling a possible Brandenburg-Berlin-Bundesland Prussia is just historicaly false.

All a matter of how you define Prussia. And as it's quite obvious you already made up your mind, I won't bother with putting energy into a fruitless discussion.

[Connaught Ranger]

btw

there are occassionally plans to merge some of the German states so that there are less state legilatures and one can save money etc... some people wat to reduce the number of states from the current 16 to even 11 or 12.

One such merger would be the merger between Berlin and Brandenburg to form the state of what some people would then want to call the state of Prussia.

So there is a distant and small chance that Prussia would be reborn.. although as a state of Germany ;)

I believe post WW2 the states of Baden & Würtenburg were co-joined.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Silent Reader]

I believe post WW2 the states of Baden & Würtenburg were co-joined.

Connaught Ranger.:)


yes - actually it was even three states originally. Württemberg-Badenia, Badenia and Württemberg-Hohenzollern which were merged in 1952.

In general i'm in favor of merging states.. it wouldn't be that bad to abolish some state legislatures while at the same time strengthening the remaining ones..

Other states that some people want to abolish would be the city states of Bremen and Hamburg which should be merged with Lower Saxony and possibly even Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania to form a big Northern German state

[Gammelpreusse]

I believe post WW2 the states of Baden & Würtenburg were co-joined.

Connaught Ranger.:)


What's more probable today is a merger of german states, Niedersachsen, Brandenburg and Schleswig Holstein into one northern state loosely representing the former north german federation.

As long as government officials run the danger of losing important positions, however, that won't happen. The very same reason the merger of the countless cities and towns in the Ruhrgebiet into one metropolis has not happend yet, despite all plannings and common sense leading into that direction.

[toki]

yes - actually it was even three states originally. Württemberg-Badenia, Badenia and Württemberg-Hohenzollern which were merged in 1952.

In general i'm in favor of merging states.. it wouldn't be that bad to abolish some state legislatures while at the same time strengthening the remaining ones..

Other states that some people want to abolish would be the city states of Bremen and Hamburg which should be merged with Lower Saxony and possibly even Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania to form a big Northern German state

NRW will stay untouched under the iron rule of the Landeshauptstadt Düsseldorf.
Seriously NRW already covers 20% of all Germans (ca. 18m), Nordrhein - Westfalen - Lippe, a kind of a merger in its founding.

That would easily work with other states. Who needs Bremen? HH hallo? Saarland?

[AmaStrat]

Prussia doesn't exist politically anymore, but certain values like punctuality, obedience, straightforwardness, dilligence, conscientiousness, austerity, sense of order are still typical German charasteristics originating from the times when Prussia ruled the German states.

Long live Prussia. :)

Prussia still lives on - in the Teutonic Order :)

[Silent Reader]

NRW will stay untouched under the iron rule of the Landeshauptstadt Düsseldorf.
Seriously NRW already covers 20% of all Germans (ca. 18m), Nordrhein - Westfalen - Lippe, a kind of a merger in its founding.

That would easily work with other states. Who needs Bremen? HH hallo? Saarland?

The big states surely will stay untuched.. this includes NRW but also Badenia-Württemberg and Bavaria.

But the Saarland indeed could be abolished too.. just merge ist with Rhineland-Palatinate to form some west German state - nobody would miss it ;)

[toki]

The big states surely will stay untuched.. this includes NRW but also Badenia-Württemberg and Bavaria.

But the Saarland indeed could be abolished too.. just merge ist with Rhineland-Palatinate to form some west German state - nobody would miss it ;)

Deutsch Süd West. lol
Deutsch Ost.
Mitteldeutschland.
See-Deutschland.
NRW
Bayern-Baden-Württemberg

[Difool]

Deutsch Süd West. lol
Deutsch Ost.
Mitteldeutschland.
See-Deutschland.
NRW
Bayern-Baden-Württemberg
And the Saarland! Or it's sold to France. :)

Mitteldeutschland is already the name for the eastern FRG.p-)

[User_Name]

Why did Prussia change it's name to Germany and in what year was it ?

Because pitty Bayern was against that name:)
(Silly questions are screaming for silly answers)

[Gammelpreusse]

Anyways, there have been calls, even in the better known newspaper columns like within "Der Spiegel", to get back back to more prussian traditions within Germany.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,640780,00.html

[JCR]

Btw, Friedrich Wilhelm I. was King "in" Prussia, not "of" Prussia :)
His successors ignored that, though.
Prussia, as someone said, was not part of the holy roman empire. De jure it was under polish suzerainty, but de facto it had never been, at least the eastern part.
At least until Frederick the Great, Königsberg had a semi-independent status.
So Prussia really was what later became east prussia, so renaming Kaliningrad as such would be accurate, especially since Masuren and the other western part only became prussian much later, even though it was not such a razor sharp border as today, but rather a mess of which town belonged to whom.

After the 30 years war, when the authority of the emperor had become a joke, the larger states sought independence from the Hapsburgs.
Bavaria alligned itself with France (bastards)
August the Strong of Saxony managed to bribe himself on the polish throne, after pro forma converting to Catholicism (in the baroque no one of royalty took religion seriously), so he was king.

The Hohenzollerns wanted to be kings as well. No kingdom in the vicinity was available, as Poland was obviously allready taken. So they made themselves kings.
In the long run, the better tactic as the Wettiner's hold over the polish crown was short lived and even August's son only became polish king after a civil war.

[lightfire]

Well first of all the name Prussia does not fit, since the original Prussia has nothing to do with Germans at all, it was a Baltic tribe (or better to say a mix of tribes under one name - Prussia) , conquered by the Teutonic knights in XIII century.

[Gammelpreusse]

Well first of all the name Prussia does not fit, since the original Prussia has nothing to do with Germans at all, it was a Baltic tribe (or better to say a mix of tribes under one name - Prussia) , conquered by the Teutonic knights in XIII century.


...by invitation of the polish king. History is pure irony.

[Bohemoth]

Prussia still lives on - in the Teutonic Order :)
Funny is, the Teutonic Order and Prussia didn't like each other and fought wars against each other, but history associates them both with Germany.

[Papenheims]

...by invitation of the polish king. History is pure irony.

Actually by duke of Masovia, who couldn't handle Prussian raids any more. Masovia in turn became province of kingdom of Poland only in 1526.

[JCR]

Actually I'd like a Bundesland Preussen, but the Poles would scream bloody murder, so its unlikely.
Interestingly, the Russians won't even though we have to annex their territory to get back the prussian heartland... ;)
Everyone I know from Brandenburg regards himself as a prussian anyway.
Prussia is not so much a territory IMHO, but a set of values and a way of life.
Real prussians are rare (and especially rare under the old Junker families today ;)) but there are some, even younger people...

[dies irae]

...by invitation of the polish king. History is pure irony.
Kondrad Mazowiecki wasn't king, he was duke of Mazovia. By the way, recently Germans historians discovered that this document of invitation, which was presented by Teutonic Knights for Pope is fake. However invitation is still a historical fact mentioned in Polish and German sources.

I am some kind of Prussian becouse I was born in Bartenstein, old prussian/teutonic knight city, now I live in Thorn that makes me even überprussian ;)

[Papenheims]

By the way, recently Germans historians discovered that this document of invitation, which was presented by Teutonic Knights for Pope is fake.

I think you mean Treaty of Kruszwica (Kruschwitz) 1230, according to which Konrad duke of Masovia granted Kulmerland to Teutonic Oder. This document does not exist anymore, and some sources say that the Order had forged it.


However invitation is still a historical fact mentioned in Polish and German sources.

The invitation is real historical fact mentioned in existing document - The Golden Bull of Rimini (1226), issued by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor.

You can read it here - http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/sources/baltic1.htm

[Gammelpreusse]

Everyone I know from Brandenburg regards himself as a prussian anyway.
Prussia is not so much a territory IMHO, but a set of values and a way of life.
Real prussians are rare (and especially rare under the old Junker families today ;)) but there are some, even younger people...


Pretty much how I see Prussia as well.
This "people/territory" definition is nonsense anyways as, as was said here already, the pagan prussian tribes themselves were wiped out. And with the termination of the prussian state even their name went into history.

[tluassa]

Werent there thoughts (im highly in favor of them) to "kill" the City states (Bremen, Hamburg, Berlin) and integrate them into their surrounding states ? Than it would actually make sense to call Brandenburg "Prussia" again :)

---> would save a whole lot of money going into Ministries. Besides, all 3 are deep in the reds because they could abuse their "city state" status and make debts no other city would be allowed to.

I think I read that also in a Spiegel article on the topic.

[He219]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/mpnet/crowningkaiserwilhelm.jpg
William I of Prussia is proclaimed German Emperor in the Hall of Mirrors in Versailles, France, 18 January 1871

Kaiser Wilhem I himself, confronted with the difficulties of keeping a peaceful Europe, said Bismarck was the one man who could juggle five balls of which at least two were always in the air.

Otto von Bismarck was probably the most successful diplomat of his time. His success can be measured by the fact he managed, as Prussia’s Chancellor, to unite the scattered remains of the Holy Roman Empire into Germany. A master of realpolitik, he managed a strategy of balance of power in Central Europe that allowed peace, although he was all too aware of the possibility of it bringing war. Indeed, here was an aristocratic social conservative that made approve the very first social legislation in the world, paving the way for the kind of welfare states we enjoy in Europe nowadays, as a means to ensure social stability and peace. Incentives do matter, and not just as carrots or sticks. Bismarck understood Pareto efficiency, and when to push for an application of the Kaldor-Hicks Principle.

source (http://enviroecon.wordpress.com/tag/copenhagen/)

[Gammelpreusse]

Werent there thoughts (im highly in favor of them) to "kill" the City states (Bremen, Hamburg, Berlin) and integrate them into their surrounding states ? Than it would actually make sense to call Brandenburg "Prussia" again :)

---> would save a whole lot of money going into Ministries. Besides, all 3 are deep in the reds because they could abuse their "city state" status and make debts no other city would be allowed to.

I think I read that also in a Spiegel article on the topic.

Won't happen, too many valued ministry and government jobs for the parties to claim at stake.

[Silent Reader]

Won't happen, too many valued ministry and government jobs for the parties to claim at stake.


there already was a referendum on this in Berlin and Brandenburg in 1996.

There a majority of Brandenburgers voted against it - but the minimum number of voters (25%) wasn't even reached so the referendum wouldn't have been of any use anyway.

But for quite some time there was the idea to repeat this referendum I think 15 years later.. which would be in 2011.. but i think this idea has been dropped for now.. or postponed..


but on the other hand.. the regional supreme courts (Oberlandesgerichte) of Berlin and Brandenburg have already been merged for example...

[JCR]

Werent there thoughts (im highly in favor of them) to "kill" the City states (Bremen, Hamburg, Berlin) and integrate them into their surrounding states

I think I read that also in a Spiegel article on the topic.

Berlin maybe, but Hamburg and Bremen? Never
Especially Hamburg has been a free and hanseatic city just about forever, except for some interludes thanks to Boney and Adolf.
Bremen is more likely as they're not as bone headed proud as Hamburg and financially in much more trouble.
Hamburg is relatively sound, AFAIK.

[Silent Reader]

Berlin maybe, but Hamburg and Bremen? Never
Especially Hamburg has been a free and hanseatic city just about forever, except for some interludes thanks to Boney and Adolf.
Bremen is more likely as they're not as bone headed proud as Hamburg and financially in much more trouble.
Hamburg is relatively sound, AFAIK.


Bremen definately should be merged.. after all they are not that much of a trditional state and only became a state in the modern Germeny because the US needed a harbor in the north

[JCR]

Bremen definately should be merged.. after all they are not that much of a trditional state and only became a state in the modern Germeny because the US needed a harbor in the north

Bremen has been as independent as Hamburg all the time, but was less important in the 20th century.
The swedish king, among thousands of other titles claimed himself to be "duke of Bremen", maybe he still does
:cantbeli:

[Gammelpreusse]

there already was a referendum on this in Berlin and Brandenburg in 1996.

There a majority of Brandenburgers voted against it - but the minimum number of voters (25%) wasn't even reached so the referendum wouldn't have been of any use anyway.

But for quite some time there was the idea to repeat this referendum I think 15 years later.. which would be in 2011.. but i think this idea has been dropped for now.. or postponed..


but on the other hand.. the regional supreme courts (Oberlandesgerichte) of Berlin and Brandenburg have already been merged for example...

Yeah, I remember that one, an honorable exception from the rule, alas, wihout success.

[Silent Reader]

Bremen has been as independent as Hamburg all the time, but was less important in the 20th century.
The swedish king, among thousands of other titles claimed himself to be "duke of Bremen", maybe he still does
:cantbeli:


of course they were important etc as part of the Hanse and were also independent similar to Hamburg... but if the Americans wouldn't have needed a harbor then I guess Bremen would never have gotten the status as a state in the Federal Republic and today would be just a town within Lower Saxony

[toki]

A city like Bremen, run like a Bundesland is laughing stock.
Of course they're running deep red. With all the institutions and support... for a bunch of people.
Nonsense. Nuke Bremen.

Germany should be federal, but there's overkill.

[5./FjgBtl610]

Besides of the Napoleonic Wars I think the Thirty Years War (1618-1648) is the core of all the mess which happened in the three hundered years after, so anybody interested in German history has to take a good look into this era
to understand what actually lead to 1815, 1848, 1864, 1871, 1914, 1939, 1949, 1990 .
Kinda hard for foreigners p-) if even the aboriginies are argueing ´bout the stuff.
Frank

[JCR]

And all that just because somebody had to throw three guys out of a window onto a pile of dung...
Yes, I know there were deeper reasons.
The 30 years war is one of my favorite historical subjects, ever I read Golo Mann's biography of Wallenstein.

[Difool]

Germany should be federal, but there's overkill.

I don't see a reason for federalism anymore. It's just expensive and annoying and a remnant of monachistic times.

[Seek]

I don't see a reason for federalism anymore. It's just expensive and annoying and a remnant of monachistic times.

Nope, it's actually a way to prevent concentration of population, power and money. Without federalism, there would be many less developped places in Germany today. Bavaria might still have been a poor agricultural region, instead of the powerheouse it is now. Take a look at france. Everything is concentrating towards Paris and the Ile de France, with very few regional economic centres left. Federalism strenghtens regional growth, but as toki said, also has its drawbacks and should be applied more sensibly.

[filochard]

After Napoleon defeat, France was too weak to keep the German states divided anymore so Prussia more or less brutally reunited them around it. Notably Rhineland that had been brutally annexed and colonized, politically as well as culturally.
Alsace/Lorraine suffered the same treatment between 1871 and 1914 and that didn't left some good memory.
Pity Rhineland that was an important part of German soul, where most German scientists, philosophers, and artists came from, was Prussified and almost disappeared as a singular entity.
Can we consider that the 1945-1989 Western Germany was a return to Rhineland Germany while the reunified Germany is a return to Prussian Germany ?

Anyway of all the conquered countries, the Prussian girls were those the Great army soldiers preferred: nice, cultured, subtle. How those Prussian peasants and barbarians could have so nice girls is beyond my understanding p-)

Okay, that's the few I know about Germany, there must be some truth no ? :)

[JCR]

That, my friend, is a very gallic view of german history.

"Colonized" is maybe the word appropriate for brutal extermination of native culture of Elsass, Normandy, Brittany, Languedoc, Basque Country and all the other parts of France where french was not primary language, but not for inner german relations....

In Germany, we always had more or less the same language.
What you're playing at was the "Kulturkampf" of Bismarck, in the late 19th century.
This was religious, not cultural, against the catholic church that definitely did NOT spawn any thinkers or cultural archievements after 1200 or so....
Btw, the Cologne Carnival still mocks the napoleonic army


And Rhineland thinkers? Tünnes and Scheel?
No. Beethoven was from Bonn, but he's about the only one.
Hegel was Swabian by birth and Prussian by Choice, Kant was prussian, Schiller was from Baden and Goethe was Frankfurter by Birth and pretty much Goethe only by self-definition ;)
So the Rhineland was only famous for Kölsch, Catholicism and Carnival.

Btw, one more post like the above and I'm ready to post Theodor Körner poems on the subjectp-)

[Seek]

Nice post JCR... The only great thinker from the Rheinland that's crossing my mind is Goebbels... rofl

[filochard]

Since I'd like to know about Theodor Körner poems.. ;)

When they were mocking Napoleon at the Cologne carnival, Cologne was still an happy part of France. That's the difference with the Prussian: I don't think they would have allowed that the people of Cologne have fun at them.
Like the old Rhinelander proverb says: with the french everything that isn't forbidden is allowed, with the Prussian, everything that isn't allowed is forbidden p-)

[filochard]

Nice post JCR... The only great thinker from the Rheinland that's crossing my mind is Goebbels... rofl

Ever heard of Gutemberg ?

[Silent Reader]

Ever heard of Gutemberg ?


Gutenberg was from Mainz.. and Mainz is not part of the region refered to as Rheinland (don't confuse it with the state of Rheinland-Pfalz / Rheinland-Palatinate of which Mainz is the capital)

[tercio67]

Ever heard of Gutemberg ?

There is a difference betweeen a thinker and a tinker.

[Ordie]

A new name for Germany should be "Switzerland's Bad Ass Neighbor"

[Seek]

You mean Gutenberg? That was before there was even an Idea of regional identities let alone nation states in Germany... Gutenberg was born in Mainz, but that didn't inspire him to become a printer of books. Had he decieded to keep on making jewlery, some italian guy probably would have had the same idea 5 years later...
Gutenberg was more of an Artisan and Businessman than a real thinker...

BTW you seem to have quite a romantic wiew of the French conquest in Europe... Do you think the Rhinelanders were happy when the French turned theuir churches into stables for their horses?
And prussia never really had a negative impact on the rhineland identity. Prussia was definitly more liberal than some of the smaller countries that existed bofore their territory became prussian.

[filochard]

oh well I didn't hide that I don't know much about Germany.
That most of the German thinkers, scientists and artists came from Rhineland, I've read it from .. a french general. So I should have questionned it specially since french generals aren't generally very fond of Prussia lol. May be he was thinking of middle age/renaissance though not the 18th or 19th century.
Now my daughter learn German at school, she went to Germany and liked it very much. Mind you that was Bavaria, I wouldn't have let her fraternize with those Prussian eastern savages p-)

[Kitsune]

@flochard:

Prussia did actually unite the states around it without much brutality, and considerably less much than the French used under Napoleon, thank you very much. I myself as a Rhinelander can only say - with all due respect to France - that I prefer being German to being French. And as far as making fun of Prussia is concerned, Rhinelanders did that every year during carneval.


It is sad that Prussia is apparently only connected with militarism in foreign countries, thanks to lots and lots of propaganda during the wars, but there was more to it than that (plus, Prussian and German militarism is generally overexaggerated). Truly, if you had held a referendum here in the Rhineland at any time between 1871 and today, in which the population could have chosen wether they wanted to be French or German, the answer would have been "German" at virtually any time. If you doubt that, keep in mind that the inhabitants of the Saarland did decide thus on no less than two occasions. I wonder how the majority of the population of Elsace-Lorraine would have decided, if they would have been ever given the chance by France.


@JCR and Seek:
And Rhineland thinkers? Tünnes and Scheel?
Yes, for example. Not every Non-Rhinelander may be able to fully appreciate the depth of their philosophy, but that is alright. In one of your next kharmic incarnations perhaps. p-)

[Seek]

Nice one Kitsune. I'm trying to catch a glimpse of the Rhineland philosophy at least twice a year when trying to get wasted on your piss-weak Kölsch, but it's slowly growing on me... p-)

[JCR]

Relations between french and germans are complicated, but one can say that before 1871, it was the french who did the invading and killing...
The french devastation of the Palatinate (destruction of Heidelberg, Speyer, Worms etc) in 1698 was maybe the most barbarous military campaign conducted before the 20th century.
It used to be quote popular in the Pfalz to name dogs and pigs after french generals (my granpa had a dog named "Turenne" :)).
I think this was the beginning of anti-french sentiment in Germany. Before that, both nations usually left each other alone and in the 30 years war, Richelieu actually tried to promote german unity as he saw a unified non habsburg Germany as a natural ally against Spain and Austria.

During the revolution period, many germans were pro french in the sense that they shared the ideals of the revolution. Thats why french troops were greeted as liberators in many western german small states. Especially in the clerical states of Mainz, Cologne and Trier, arrival of the french revolutionary forces meant abolishment of a choking centuries old theocracy.
The picture changed after Napoleon became emperor and the french domination did not bring liberty, just new rulers (often relatives of Napoleon) and tough requisitions, plundering and often forced recruitment into the armies of Bonapartes german allies. Not to mention the tens of thousands of Germans killed in Napoleon's service in Russian and elsewhere.
"Barras" is still a word for military in Bavaria, because General Barras led a forced recruitment campaign there.
Interestingly, most german intellectuals were supportive of the french when the revolution started and when Napoleon beat one absolute ruler after another, but became anti-french during the french domination of Germany when they saw Napoleon as just another occupying tyrant, not the harbinger of change and liberty he was supposed to be.
This is with Beethoven, Schiller, Hegel and pretty much everybody else.
Körner even gave up his playwright career to fight against Napoleon and literally sacrificed his life for his beliefs.
Interestingly, this german national movement took over the liberal and democratic demands of the french revolution, no one demanded a return to the old german ways.
That's why the movement was suppressed by the powers of the Vienna congress after 1815.

Re Theodor Körner, he wrote very heroic and great but utterly anti-french poems and songs, but unlike 99% of all nationalistic poets of war, he practiced what he preached and joined the Lützow free corps and fell in battle.

[Eye]

I visit Berlin sometimes (one hour way by car). I don't remember exactly, but I read in some museum that dissolution of Prussia was proclaimed by Allies because of its militarism or something like that.

[Difool]

Relations between french and germans are complicated, but one can say that before 1871, it was the french who did the invading and killing...
The french devastation of the Palatinate (destruction of Heidelberg, Speyer, Worms etc) in 1698 was maybe the most barbarous military campaign conducted before the 20th century.
It used to be quote popular in the Pfalz to name dogs and pigs after french generals (my granpa had a dog named "Turenne" :)).

A German patriotic anti-french song from the 19th century:

Es braust ein Ruf wie Donnerhall,
wie Schwertgeklirr und Wogenprall:
Zum Rhein, zum Rhein, zum deutschen Rhein!
Wer will des Stromes Hüter sein?
Lieb Vaterland magst ruhig sein,
lieb Vaterland magst ruhig sein:
Fest steht und treu die Wacht,
die Wacht am Rhein!
Fest steht und treu die Wacht,
die Wacht am Rhein!


Translation:

A call roars like thunderbolt,
like clashing swords and splashing waves:
To the Rhine, the Rhine, to the German Rhine,
who guards tonight my stream divine?
Dear fatherland, put your mind at rest,
dear fatherland, put your mind at rest,
Fast stands, and true, the Watch, the Watch at the Rhine!
Fast stands, and true, the Watch, the Watch at the Rhine!


Songs like that have been very popular on both sides at that time. It's nearly been something like a contest.

[Hildemel]

A German patriotic anti-french song from the 19th century:

Es braust ein Ruf wie Donnerhall,
wie Schwertgeklirr und Wogenprall:
Zum Rhein, zum Rhein, zum deutschen Rhein!
Wer will des Stromes Hüter sein?
Lieb Vaterland magst ruhig sein,
lieb Vaterland magst ruhig sein:
Fest steht und treu die Wacht,
die Wacht am Rhein!
Fest steht und treu die Wacht,
die Wacht am Rhein!


Translation:

A call roars like thunderbolt,
like clashing swords and splashing waves:
To the Rhine, the Rhine, to the German Rhine,
who guards tonight my stream divine?
Dear fatherland, put your mind at rest,
dear fatherland, put your mind at rest,
Fast stands, and true, the Watch, the Watch at the Rhine!
Fast stands, and true, the Watch, the Watch at the Rhine!


Songs like that have been very popular on both sides at that time. It's nearly been something like a contest.

Die Wacht am Rhein / The Watch on the Rhine

It was at one time an unofficial national anthem but the song never actually states its being guarded against the french. Switzerland and Holland have the Rhein going through them as well.

Except for Heino no one has really sung that song since 1945.

[Seek]

No need to be precise about who was meant by this song. Everybody knew in that times... Most songs don't even use the words French, or France... Still you know who was adressed by them. ;)

[Difool]

Die Wacht am Rhein / The Watch on the Rhine

It was at one time an unofficial national anthem but the song never actually states its being guarded against the french. Switzerland and Holland have the Rhein going through them as well.

Hypothetically yes. :)


Except for Heino no one has really sung that song since 1945.

In some German student fraternities for example it's sung quite often. I guess it might be quite popular among nationalists as well. But that should be all. This song is very PIC in Germany today. It should be seen in the historic context.

[filochard]

Relations between french and germans are complicated, but one can say that before 1871, it was the french who did the invading and killing...
The french devastation of the Palatinate (destruction of Heidelberg, Speyer, Worms etc) in 1698 was maybe the most barbarous military campaign conducted before the 20th century.

Turenne didn't help, but the restoration and Prussian invasion of Rhineland after 1815 didn't helped either.
Mind you the Prussians had it easy: the people was exhausted by war, and the clergy and aristocracy was all too happy to help and participate in anti-french propaganda and restore the maximum of the old aristocratic and theocratic system.
The Rhinelanders weren't treated worse than other french: they were french.
And many Germans fought bravely with the Great army: that's a proof the anti-french sentiment wasn't as widespread as it was pretended later. Unfortunatelly not many went back from Russia. Else they would have gladely kicked some Prussian @ss again without being forced.

[Gammelpreusse]

Turenne didn't help, but the restoration and Prussian invasion of Rhineland after 1815 didn't helped either.
Mind you the Prussians had it easy: the people was exhausted by war, and the clergy and aristocracy was all too happy to help and participate in anti-french propaganda and restore the maximum of the old aristocratic and theocratic system.
The Rhinelanders weren't treated worse than other french: they were french.
And many Germans fought bravely with the Great army: that's a proof the anti-french sentiment wasn't as widespread as it was pretended later. Unfortunatelly not many went back from Russia. Else they would have gladely kicked some Prussian @ss again without being forced.


Whatever book you read, close it and never open it again.

[Seek]

filochard, that last pos of yours wasn't even funny anymore...

[Difool]

Well, yes. Mmmh........................(I'm speechless)

[toki]

And Rhineland thinkers? Tünnes and Scheel?
No. Beethoven was from Bonn, but he's about the only one.
Hegel was Swabian by birth and Prussian by Choice, Kant was prussian, Schiller was from Baden and Goethe was Frankfurter by Birth and pretty much Goethe only by self-definition ;)
So the Rhineland was only famous for Kölsch, Catholicism and Carnival.

Btw, one more post like the above and I'm ready to post Theodor Körner poems on the subjectp-)

To all the Rheinland basher:
Heinrich Heine is Rheinländer. And he went to the same Gymnasium i went to. Yes it was that old. :)

And about Carnival, the reason for all the uniforms and stuff is that people wanted to poke som fun of the french
occupation forces. The look of Carnival wasn't always like that, it stems from the pre prussian french occupation. That's why the Rhineland had its very own carnival compared to the southern German stuff.

[Seek]

Of course the Rheinland is not only about partying, but that's what it's mostly known for. ;)

[toki]

Of course the Rheinland is not only about partying, but that's what it's mostly known for. ;)

Which isn't a bad concept and a reason i prefer to live here.

[Gammelpreusse]

Of course the Rheinland is not only about partying, but that's what it's mostly known for. ;)


There's worse things to be known for, really ;)

[Seek]

Which isn't a bad concept and a reason i prefer to live here.


There's worse things to be known for, really ;)

Agreed....

[shadowsrider]

Yeah.. history is interesting...
Prussians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians the Baltic pagan tribe.
BTW what happened to original prussian genes? I understand that they were gradually outnumbered by German settlers and overwhelmed like it happened with nation of Luzhice near Oder?

BTW word Prusak (citizen of Prussia) in Poland has conotation of oppressor and this is not the case that Prussian in Polish means ... cockroach (which made some my Bavarian friends laughing).
Also word "German" - "Niemiec" in Polish is funny and means: "the one unable to speak"

[Gammelpreusse]

Yeah.. history is interesting...
Prussians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians the Baltic pagan tribe.
BTW what happened to original prussian genes? I understand that they were gradually outnumbered by German settlers and overwhelmed like it happened with nation of Luzhice near Oder?

They were simply assimilated over time.



BTW word Prusak (citizen of Prussia) in Poland has conotation of oppressor and this is not the case that Prussian in Polish means ... cockroach (which made some my Bavarian friends laughing).
Also word "German" - "Niemiec" in Polish is funny and means: "the one unable to speak"

Interesting, but not overly suprising but the last one. "The one unable to speak"? What does that refer to?

[toki]

nteresting, but not overly suprising but the last one. "The one unable to speak"? What does that refer to?

Had that before on mp.net. It refers to the fact that they spoke a foreign tongue and therefore couldn't communicate.

[Gammelpreusse]

Had that before on mp.net. It refers to the fact that they spoke a foreign tongue and therefore couldn't communicate.

*lol* is that really the case? :lol:

[toki]

*lol* is that really the case? :lol:

IIRC correctly, yes. Those old names often come from very simple circumstances.
Your tribe = speak funny = don't understand = deaf-mute

[Gammelpreusse]

IIRC correctly, yes. Those old names often come from very simple circumstances.
Your tribe = speak funny = don't understand = deaf-mute

Wonder what the Poles call other folks, then ;)

but thats another topic I figure.

[rhino]

Polish and German belong to two different language groups so any communications would be challenging, unlike the comms with other Slavic tibes, its not that hard to imagine why would Poles call Germans 'Niemiec'
though I think the word 'Niemiec" can also be closely translated to "Without Possession"

[Hast2]

Russian language has "Nemec" as well, so maybe at least root of this word is common for Slavic languages.

[Difool]

Also word "German" - "Niemiec" in Polish is funny and means: "the one unable to speak"
Interesting. Earlier in this thread we had the discussion about the origin of "Deutsch". I asked myself then what might be the origin of "Nemets" (the Russian version). Thanks for enlightening me.

[el borracho]

Interesting. Earlier in this thread we had the discussion about the origin of "Deutsch". I asked myself then what might be the origin of "Nemets" (the Russian version). Thanks for enlightening me.

Yep, we discussed this a few weeks ago. Apparently the Slavic root for that word means "the ingorant ones" and was applied much like the Greek term "barbarian."

[Difool]

Yep, we discussed this a few weeks ago. Apparently the Slavic root for that word means "the ingorant ones" and was applied much like the Greek term "barbarian."

I had to laugh reading your post. The Romans called the Germans barbarians 2000 years ago. Nothing seems to have changed except the we eat with fork and knife today. :)

[el borracho]

Despite the source, I think the quote is legit. If you've ever played Medieval II: Total War, when the loading screen is on, it displays a quote by a famous historical figure. One, from a French King, Louis the something or other, said "I speak French to men, Italian to women, Spanish to God...and German to my horse." p-)

[Gammelpreusse]

Despite the source, I think the quote is legit. If you've ever played Medieval II: Total War, when the loading screen is on, it displays a quote by a famous historical figure. One, from a French King, Louis the something or other, said "I speak French to men, Italian to women, Spanish to God...and German to my horse." p-)


Now it tells a lot you required a computer game to figure that out :cantbeli:

That aside, you just can't please anybody, especially when it comes to the french ;)

[Ordie]

How about "North Switzerland" as a name for Germany.

[ilmakas]

it seems there are lots of different names for Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany

I personally like the NAvajo - Béésh Bich’ahii Bikéyah ("Metal Cap-wearer Land") - the best :)

[little icebear]

How about "North Switzerland" as a name for Germany.

In fact, Swiss sometimes do refer jokingly to Germany as the "big canton". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland


except the we eat with fork and knife today. :)

Speak for yourself. p-)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Lol Toki's French!

Seriously

Question for the Germans.

What's the status of the 4 Kingdoms, Prussia, Bavaria and Wurttemberg in relation to Federal Germany?

[Hildemel]

Lol Toki's French!

Seriously

Question for the Germans.

What's the status of the 4 Kingdoms, Prussia, Bavaria and Wurttemberg in relation to Federal Germany?

You named only three...

Prussia (Preußen) is a part of history and pride I think. Bavaria (Bayern) is a large state that sees itself seperate but still a part of Germany. Württemberg I have no idea about.

[toki]

Lol Toki's French!

Seriously

Question for the Germans.

What's the status of the 4 Kingdoms, Prussia, Bavaria and Wurttemberg in relation to Federal Germany?




You named only three...

Prussia (Preußen) is a part of history and pride I think. Bavaria (Bayern) is a large state that sees itself seperate but still a part of Germany. Württemberg I have no idea about.

But the Bavaria now and then are two different things either. Smaller.
Württemberg is one part of Baden-Württemberg, a federal state of Germany. Prussia has no formal successor.

All in all you can say that those kingdoms changed too often and what you find now is often times only a referring name. The federal states have obviously little to do with the kingdoms douchies etc, often times they're not even part of Germany anymore. But the names of the regions still stay.

16 states of Germany. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany)

The creation of the federal states obviously happened only after ww2.
Example:

The state of North Rhine-Westphalia was established by the British military administration on 23 August 1946.

[Gammelpreusse]

It should be noted, however, that the federal structures of Germany have their roots in the Länder of the second German Empire, which at that time enjoyed even more autonomy then today. These again developed and are based on the legacy the holy roman empire left behind. The more powerful and defined states, like Bavaria, more or less survived intact at least in regards to their territory.

[shadowsrider]

Yep, we discussed this a few weeks ago. Apparently the Slavic root for that word means "the ingorant ones" and was applied much like the Greek term "barbarian."

I think this is overinterpretation.
Root of word Niemiec is Niemy which means simply: mute, silent.

The source is exactly like in some posts before: simply the word was forged in early slavic times propably in some VI-X century so it was exactly like this: oh this funny guy can't speak.

It is interesteing to know where Allemagne and Deutsch come from. Seems that it is common for nations that they were called by other nations by name of some old tribe not necessarly the same one.

Sorry again for Polish analogy but simply it looks the same which is interesting conclusion.
Main Polish group of tribes were called Polans while there was another slavic group of tribes: Lendians later assimilated into Polish state.
So most nations call Poles the Pol..something while some nations like Lithuanians, Hungarians call Poles Le..something which comes from this Lendians tribe.

[shadowsrider]

Wonder what the Poles call other folks, then ;)

but thats another topic I figure.

Other funny and different name are Włosi - Italians which means... hairy :) With those 2 exceptions the rest of names have the same root like in other languages

And btw another word: "franca" means syphilis with obvious connotation to France where it came from :)

Ok.. finishing this Polish "off topic" :)

[Gammelpreusse]

Other funny and different name are Włosi - Italians which means... hairy :) With those 2 exceptions the rest of names have the same root like in other languages

And btw another word: "franca" means syphilis with obvious connotation to France where it came from :)

Ok.. finishing this Polish "off topic" :)

the poor italians rofl


language is highly interesting, even more so considering how it developed. Thanks for sharing =)

[el borracho]

And btw another word: "franca" means syphilis with obvious connotation to France where it came from :)


Sorry to go off topic, but you brought up an interesting point: anyone who is an avid reader of history will note that syphilis was present during ancient times. Apparently it was a problem in ancient Greece and Rome, with some notable emperors suffering from the disease. I've also read that the Spaniards brought syphilis back to Europe after contact with Native Americans. So which is it? Was the disease in ancient times not really syphilis? Was it on the decline during the middle ages and the Spaniards caused a resurgence? I apologize for the distraction, but I've been wondering about this for awhile.

[Connaught Ranger]

Sorry to go off topic, but you brought up an interesting point: anyone who is an avid reader of history will note that syphilis was present during ancient times. Apparently it was a problem in ancient Greece and Rome, with some notable emperors suffering from the disease. I've also read that the Spaniards brought syphilis back to Europe after contact with Native Americans. So which is it? Was the disease in ancient times not really syphilis? Was it on the decline during the middle ages and the Spaniards caused a resurgence? I apologize for the distraction, but I've been wondering about this for awhile.

If anything it was more than likely transported to the new world by European sailors, along with smallpox and measles.

[johanness]

In the German language syphilis is also called "the French disease".

"The English disease" in German is the rickets, but I don't know the reason.

[Sada]

Excuse me for writing about the off topic, but I wrote sometime here about syphilis as coming from the New world: it´s a common place in Spain that Martín Alonso Pinzón has the honour of being the first european victim of syphilis. He died in march of 1493 few time after landing in Spain from America. Martín was the captain of the "Pinta", one of the three ships of Columbus first expedition to America and the first in coming back to Spain with news of the discovery, remember they reached America a 12th of October of 1492, so if the same day Martín had some kind of contact with some local native, it only took syphilis five months to finish with Martín, who should have been virgin like a baby to that virus. After reading all you I´ve searched a bit in the net (mostly wikipedia, what not?) and reading a medicine encyclopedia at home at it seems there are several theories aobut syphilis origin. It´s posible there were some cases in classic times in Europe, but there were found bodies of precolombine amerindians with signs of syphilis; the wikings looked like if they experienced some cases of syphilis after travelling to Greenland and maybe Terranova, with some infected people back in Europe, but in any case there wasn´t a big epidemie in the Old World before 1492. It´s as if syphilis at first were mainly confined in the tropical area of America, then Martin died in early 1493, posibly some unknown crew members died in the next months too; and they cite the siege of Napoli in 1494, where there must have been spanish soldiers, by some german troops I suppose serving Charles VIII of France as the beginning of the first syphilis epidemie in Europe. Syphilis devastation should have been much worse than AIDS in the 80s in the number of people affected and the fast effects of the illnes.
Giving names to epidemies it´s a hobby that all countries share. Here in Spain people are surprised when they know that the flu of 1918 it´s called out there as the "spanish flu" when that illness was imported here from belligerant countries of the Great War, but that´s life. In the spanish wikipedia they say syphilis was baptized with the name of almost all european countries. People that loved so much Spain like portugueses and dutch in those times called syphilis as the "spanish disease", and of course russians called it the "polish disease" with some good reasons, so welcome you all to the club. Anyway, coming back to the topic of this thread, Germany, nobody called back then syphillis as the "german illness".

[Eye]

who should have been virgin like a baby to that virus.
One mention - treponema pallidum is a bacteria.
Anyway - very interesting thread.

[Sada]

After the long off topic, thank you all because I´ve enjoyed a long read in this thread and learnt things I ignored about Germany and your points of view about yourselves, I´m just a bit surprised as spanish you don´t show a big desire of keeping this institutions of the old state cities, I understand the reasons about cutting excesive public spendings in that institutions.
I´ve always wondered about all germanic tribes and germans of today. I´ve many questions, I know they are very basic and maybe silly but here I go: What was the tribal language that most influded in the current german language? What is the heritage of all germanic tribes in Germany today? after the invassions of the late Roman Empire, did remain many saxons, swabians or francs in Germany? can you still difference in character or other cultural traditions a saxon of a frank or a swabian today?



It is sad that Prussia is apparently only connected with militarism in foreign countries, thanks to lots and lots of propaganda during the wars, but there was more to it than that (plus, Prussian and German militarism is generally overexaggerated).
As a foreign one, I´d say that militarism was linked with Prussia(not with the rest of germans) mainly because the desire of the own prussian people since the time of Friedrich II, but consider that militarism hand´t bad connotations in most of XIX century in the world: discipline, auster life, hard job, all this things were and are positive things. But there was a thing that prussians had with uniforms that not everybody shared, it was the image they decided to project of themselves and I say again that militarism in the daily life was something that many people appreciated 150 years ago.
It was after 1871 that Germany(Prussia actually) began to be seen with some caution but even more admired. After that date, there were many new countries in South America that looked to german military and imported german advisors with some bizzarre results sometimes. Germany experienced an impressive development in the XIX century in all fields but again talking about Prussia it was like talking about modern spartans, the first thing people had in mind I say before both world wars, not in the case of frenchs of course, that lost their long continental predominance with Bismarck and began to have bitter feelings about you. If you read novels from Jules Verne, you know that he was very optimistic about science and the future of the world and in his novels he wrote with enthusiasm about the scientific discoveries of his time and the main scientific: french, english, russians and of course germans, he admired all of them, but after 1871 his mood changed, it´s evident he was morally shocked with the french defeat like many germans, and he wrote a novel that I can´t remember the title now where a german scientific threatens the world with a prefiguration of the ultimate weapon: the german scientific it´s described as a kind of crazy SS scientific in a time where most of nazi government members weren´t born. I don´t say that Verne was right, I just say that his vision of Germany as a militarist country was in some way shared by many people in his time, and it´s surprising when you see that France wasn´t considered as a militarist country considering that France had caused many wars in the XVIII and the napoleonic wars were terrible in split blood, beginning with my country.

[Sada]

One mention - treponema pallidum is a bacteria.
Anyway - very interesting thread.
Thanks for the correction. For sure it´s an ugly one!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Austria is the true and rightful leader of the German people IMO

[johanness]

Australia is the true and rightful leader of the German people IMO

Australia ... what???

[Vandervahn]

...
"The English disease" in German is the rickets, but I don't know the reason.

Probably because it spread widely with the beginning of industrialization, of which England was a pioneer and forerunner until the 1910s. The unbearable, unfiltered smog and child labour in dimly lit factories and mines disrupted the Vitamin D cycle in the bodies which requisited contact to UV-B light.

[Amethystfretchen]

Some short historical overview of Thuringia and it's mini-states.
-> http://www.thueringen.de/imperia/md/content/lzt/thueringen-englisch.pdf

[Gammelpreusse]

After the long off topic, thank you all because I´ve enjoyed a long read in this thread and learnt things I ignored about Germany and your points of view about yourselves, I´m just a bit surprised as spanish you don´t show a big desire of keeping this institutions of the old state cities, I understand the reasons about cutting excesive public spendings in that institutions.

Why were you surprised?



I´ve always wondered about all germanic tribes and germans of today. I´ve many questions, I know they are very basic and maybe silly but here I go: What was the tribal language that most influded in the current german language? What is the heritage of all germanic tribes in Germany today? after the invassions of the late Roman Empire, did remain many saxons, swabians or francs in Germany? can you still difference in character or other cultural traditions a saxon of a frank or a swabian today? Gah....that is such a huge topic to cover. There are a lot of different opinions out there, so I will simply write what I think, without claiming to be completly true here.
Germany to this day is by far not the big singular power block many people make it out to be. There are many many different dialects and attitutes still displayed to this very day. If that has to do with the original tribes or based on the countlesss small realms the german lands eventually degraded to later I can't say, but the people you find in the weast, east, north or south are all distinctivly different from each other. At times ppl coming from certain regions are still called by their old tribe names, like the Swabians, the Allemannen, the Franks (call a Frank a Bayer and you should better preprare to run) the Frisians and so on.

Now all these little realms I am sure had their own influences on such behaviours. Unlike in more centralized countries, every Baron, Every Count required his own Museums, library, palace and so on. So you have this stuff spread all over Germany. With that came their own cultural identities.

Last but not least the reformation played a huge role in this, there is a north/south devider running through Germany, with a catholic south and a protestant north. There are clear differences in character between those deviders as well.

And not to forget the Iron Curtain and West/East Germany. Ppl here show different attiutes as well.

So all in all it's pretty much f*cked up. Nevertheless most ppl I know, me included, consider themselves german foremost, only then having any regional ties, though that also greatly differs depending on the region.

[Gammelpreusse]

Austria is the true and rightful leader of the German people IMO


Austria is a small nowdays nearly insignificant country that only differs from other german states by beeing it's own country. Instead of comitting to the Reich they back in the days started their own Empire with Hungary included. In my book that robbed them of any leadership rights in Germany, despite their clinging to the Reichsinsignia (which were only brought there during the advances of Napeleon from Nuremberg and never given back). During the Habsburg reign the holy roman empire became its weakest. No wonder other nations wish them back.

That aside, looking what has become of Austria nowadays, I rather stick to Berlin, thank you very much.

[little icebear]

That aside, looking what has become of Austria nowadays, I rather stick to Berlin, tank you very much.

Dude - he said Australia!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_h3zPEoKhop0/SexfdluM4fI/AAAAAAAABB0/C60GsYjUzzc/s400/worst-country-in-europe-australia.jpg

[Vandervahn]

...
So all in all it's pretty much f*cked up. Nevertheless most ppl I know, me included, consider themselves german foremost, only then having any regional ties, though that also greatly differs depending on the region.

Don´t forget the huge impact the expulsion of east germans had after WW2; this was a huge change of demographics all over Germany without which we would have even more regionalization nowadays.

[Gammelpreusse]

Don´t forget the huge impact the expulsion of east germans had after WW2; this was a huge change of demographics all over Germany without which we would have even more regionalization nowadays.


True, that adds to the confusion it as well. And as we are at it, there were huge propulation shifts during and after the 30 years war as well.

[tluassa]

While I agree that there are clearly visible differences in character between and Bavarian from the South, a Westfalian and a Saxon, Germany forms a quite strong and homogenious society. There are no ethnic minorities besides the Sorbs (and maybe Turks, but that is another, much more recent story) and some Danish minorities, the rest forms a massive, undividable block in the middle of Europe. The Wall and its outcome at least to me only showed that this is very true, since not even 40 years of forced cutting in half didnt destroy German National unity.
The situation is not comparable to for example Spain, where whole regions want to be independant. (not even the Bavarians in Germany seriously want to leave the Rest - and they have by far the strongest regional character if you ask me :) )

[Sada]

Why were you surprised?


Well, Hamburg or Bremmen cities go back to middle age, frankly I don´t know anything about their current administrative system and the power they can administrate, but taking in consideration they are firmly anchored in the German state since Bismarck times for what it matters, I thought until I read you they´d like keeping their state-city as always, just the fact of being "different" among equals and having ancient traditions, for some voters this things are cool...until the question touches their pocket.

[Sada]

While I agree that there are clearly visible differences in character between and Bavarian from the South, a Westfalian and a Saxon, Germany forms a quite strong and homogenious society. There are no ethnic minorities besides the Sorbs (and maybe Turks, but that is another, much more recent story) and some Danish minorities, the rest forms a massive, undividable block in the middle of Europe. The Wall and its outcome at least to me only showed that this is very true, since not even 40 years of forced cutting in half didnt destroy German National unity.
The situation is not comparable to for example Spain, where whole regions want to be independant. (not even the Bavarians in Germany seriously want to leave the Rest - and they have by far the strongest regional character if you ask me :) )
Well, you could compare Germany and Spain, I just point the differences and let to you the consequences : 1.Spanish state it´s the oldest of Europe, with Portugal, and Germany it´s with Italy the newest state of Western Europe 2. Spain it´s made of different kingdoms, like Germany, but spanish speak different languages and germans only speak one language 3. All castillian(spanish) speakers in Europe are spanish and only a fraction(although the biggest) of german speakers in Europe are german citizens 4.Germany natural and political borders are somewhat undefined and changing through the time, Spain natural and political borders are in a 80% unchanged in the last 1500 years, and I stop here because there were other big differences there is no point in talking about.
But about what you said of Spain "where whole regions want to be independant", my advise it´s you look at votes, not at shots, and who is ruling the regions you´re thinking on. Personally I´d give independence right now and by force if necessary to a determined people of this old state that since centuries ago enjoy a privileged economic system and yesterday all their representatives voted acordingly in the parlament with the purpose of the rest of us keep living like colonized people, but this it´s waaay off topic, we´re talking about your country ;)

[Gammelpreusse]

Well, you could compare Germany and Spain, I just point the differences and let to you the consequences : 1.Spanish state it´s the oldest of Europe, with Portugal, and Germany it´s with Italy the newest state of Western Europe 2. Spain it´s made of different kingdoms, like Germany, but spanish speak different languages and germans only speak one language 3. All castillian(spanish) speakers in Europe are spanish and only a fraction(although the biggest) of german speakers in Europe are german citizens 4.Germany natural and political borders are somewhat undefined and changing through the time, Spain natural and political borders are in a 80% unchanged in the last 1500 years, and I stop here because there were other big differences there is no point in talking about.
But about what you said of Spain "where whole regions want to be independant", my advise it´s you look at votes, not at shots, and who is ruling the regions you´re thinking on. Personally I´d give independence right now and by force if necessary to a determined people of this old state that since centuries ago enjoy a privileged economic system and yesterday all their representatives voted acordingly in the parlament with the purpose of the rest of us keep living like colonized people, but this it´s waaay off topic, we´re talking about your country ;)

Heh, I think you are confusing a couple points here, Sada. Now you are right, the modern german nation was founded only in 1871, but it is not as if this region had no foundations to build upon. At this time only 65 years have passed after the dissolution of the last all german entity, the holy roman empire of german nation, which was one of the oldest political entities in Europe. The nowdays used black eagle is one of the oldest, if not "the" oldest state insignia still used in the world (btw, there are theories that black eagle developed out of a germanic tribes raven insignia, as this was a very important bird in germanic religion). The story is comparable with Italy and Greece as well, who have an ever longer history to look back at. So there is a "huge" basis of shared history that lead to the reformation of said nations.

The modern nation state concept you are reffering to, also in regards to Spain, only developed as a result of the 30 years war, which had it's ending in 1648, to talk about nations before that date is stretching the definition of the word quite a bit. Europe and Europeans back then were not bound by language and culture, but whom their respective aristocratic Ruler was. Trade and education were overregional, scholars from different countries were the norm in Europe's universities. That becomes even more clear if you check the roots of the european royal dynasties, which most of the time leads back into other countries. The EU with it's open border, live whereever you want, study and work whereever you want policies kinda bring back these times.

And maybe I am wrong, but Spain only came into it's current form after the reqoniquista, no?

[Lancero]

Spanish state it´s the oldest of Europe, with Portugal

We're actually a couple hundred years older than 'Spain'.

[timetraveller]

I never expected that which i asked to even reach 9 pages ..


Cheers allround for all that have contributed been an excellent insight .

[tluassa]

I never expected that which i asked to even reach 9 pages ..


Cheers allround for all that have contributed been an excellent insight .

Yeha cluster intelligence works :)

[Sada]

We're actually a couple hundred years older than 'Spain'.
Of course, a kind of Terminator mission: galicians and asturians wiped the moors and populated that area north of Duero founding Guimaraens waiting for Alfonso Enrique to be born 300 years later, and I forgot to mention Aljubarrota, Camoens and that Ceuta was conquered by portugueses, excuse mep-)

Heh, I think you are confusing a couple points here, Sada. Now you are right, the modern german nation was founded only in 1871, but it is not as if this region had no foundations to build upon. At this time only 65 years have passed after the dissolution of the last all german entity, the holy roman empire of german nation, which was one of the oldest political entities in Europe. The nowdays used black eagle is one of the oldest, if not "the" oldest state insignia still used in the world (btw, there are theories that black eagle developed out of a germanic tribes raven insignia, as this was a very important bird in germanic religion). The story is comparable with Italy and Greece as well, who have an ever longer history to look back at. So there is a "huge" basis of shared history that lead to the reformation of said nations.

The modern nation state concept you are reffering to, also in regards to Spain, only developed as a result of the 30 years war, which had it's ending in 1648, to talk about nations before that date is stretching the definition of the word quite a bit. Europe and Europeans back then were not bound by language and culture, but whom their respective aristocratic Ruler was. Trade and education were overregional, scholars from different countries were the norm in Europe's universities. That becomes even more clear if you check the roots of the european royal dynasties, which most of the time leads back into other countries. The EU with it's open border, live whereever you want, study and work whereever you want policies kinda bring back these times.

And maybe I am wrong, but Spain only came into it's current form after the reqoniquista, no?
The last one, true Spain as is today it´s a result of reconquering the land to the south, finished in 1492, but kingdom of Asturias, political seed of Spain so to speak, was born few years after 711aC founded by Pelayo, refuged in northern mountains after the defeat of king Roderick, of whom he was relative, last visigoth king of Spain, before Charlemagne was born: Current king of Spain is descendant in straight line of this early kings, although around year 1500 kings of Spain lost any spanish surname because a lack of male heir and since them they were Austrias(Habusrgs) and finally Bourbons, but there´s a natural sucession along this time. Asturias crown quickly enhanced with the kingdom of Galicia and later of Leon, when it was a much bigger territory in the X century it became to be known widely as "Kingdom of Leon" because the capital city was displaced to the south in the new conquered territory of Leon, this was the trend the next 5 centuries: the political power of christian kingdoms were displaced to the south at the same time more land was conquered to the moors: The kingdoms of Castilla and Portugal were born in the same way in the west half of the peninsula, in the east half was more or less similar but the starting point were basques living in Pyrenees(Navarra), mountain people from Aragon and the south marks of Charlemagne(county of Barcelona). Although the symbols of Galicia and Asturias aren´t represented in the insignia of the spanish crown, the lyon of Leon(founded as Legio VII campament in IbC) of course it is and it must be more than 1000 years old. Alfonso III de Asturias, Galicia and Leon in late IX-early X century declared himself to be the "Rex hispanorum" because he was the heir of the lost visigoth kingdom by right: it´s interesting to say that kings of Navarra and Aragon recognized this title, although with few practical consequences at first, because they knew Alfonso III was right and Asturias had received what remained of the royal and legal powers of Roderick.

About the first point, I know there was a lot of historic material in Germany and Italy before XIX, they were nations but they weren´t states, I know the difference. Italians had a conscience of being that but in the XVI century they were first of all genoveses, venetians, saboyans or vassals of the Pope, the germans the same: saxons, hannoverians... and even not all germans territories were members of the Holy Roman Empire if I´m right, anyway territories members of that empire had quite a loose union in many cases and in other cases were virtually independent territories as Karl V knew, compared with what he had in Spain: Three crowns (Castilla(Leon,Castilla, three basques provinces, Asturias, GAlicia, Andalucia), Navarra and Aragon(Aragon, Catalunia, Baleares, VAlencia and italian territories) firmly united in the same person and although with different taxes, they shared a basic royal civil administration with a prime minister(not with this name) and a single army for the three peninsular crowns: this was three centuries before Bismarck and Cavour, and by the end of the 30 years war I´m afraid castillians, galicians, argoneses, etc had an spanish national conscience since long time besides feeling individually as aragoneses or basques, and most important of all: their enemies identified them first of all as spanish. Spanish administration of that time today looks very primitive, but probably was the most advanced of that time, having central archives and for a big reason: It was almot the only state of europe with a permanent army, and armies ate the most of state budgets in that times. Napoleon big mistake was to don´t know that spanish people wouldn´t accept a foreign king, his brother, like other europeans did, not because he was foreign but because he was imposed by a foreign power(not spanish). Just consider that from XIV until XIX century, almost yesterday, germans and italians national frenquently fought each others but not in civil wars but serving different flags, and castillians and aragoneses began his foreign activities in Europe or North Africa around 1300, almost 200 years before of being politically unified, and never ever in that time they fought each other aligned with foreign powers, only there were some crisis but because of dinastic issues, and in those years there were terrible wars like the 100 years wars or the angevine wars in Italy and some times aragoneses and castillians had opposed interests; and when a member of castillian dinasty of Trastamara went to rule in Aragon it was more easy, and after the wedding of Fernando I and Isabel the use of troops of each kingdom abroad was almost indistinguishable, although each crown paid its expenses(in an unbalanced way like today, btw)

[Gammelpreusse]

Oi Sada, you obviously have to prove a point, not going into an argument over that. p-)

Thanks for sharing, however http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:RvGPeO0Bu_2edM:http://www.katzenhilfe-westerwald.de/picture_engine/smilie/thumbs-up.gif

[Lancero]

Of course, a kind of Terminator mission: galicians and asturians wiped the moors and populated that area north of Duero founding Guimaraens waiting for Alfonso Enrique to be born 300 years later, and I forgot to mention Aljubarrota, Camoens and that Ceuta was conquered by portugueses, excuse mep-)


Were galicians and asturians 'spanish' at the time? No.

[Sada]

I haven´t time for byzantine discussions,Portugal is not older than Spain, different category: Portugal was born as a border county of one of the founders kingdoms of what today it´s Spain, actually 400 younger than some of those kingdoms that never ceased to exist.

Were galicians and asturians 'spanish' at the time? No.

Yes, you shouldn´t write history at your pleasure, they were spanish by their will of never been conquered and so continuing legally the visigoth kingdom, it´s a pity you weren´t around here the year 900aC for discussing to Alfonso III his claims

Alfonso III de Asturias, Galicia and Leon in late IX-early X century declared himself to be the "Rex hispanorum" because he was the heir of the lost visigoth kingdom by right: it´s interesting to say that kings of Navarra and Aragon recognized this title, although with few practical consequences at first, because they knew Alfonso III was right and Asturias had received what remained of the royal and legal powers of Roderick.

[Lancero]

Stop confusing Spain with Hispania or Iberia and you'll probably get somewere.
Fact 1: The Kingdom of Portugal was founded in 1143.
Fact 2: The Kingdom of Spain was founded in 1469 with the union, by marriage, of Castile and Aragon.

[Sada]

Stop confusing Spain with Hispania or Iberia and you'll probably get somewere.
Fact 2: The Kingdom of Spain was founded in 1469 with the union, by marriage, of Castile and Aragon.
:oops: again and again with those lusitanians clouds. Year of 1469 Spain wasn´t born, just queen of Castilla and king of Aragon got married but they kept being respectives rulers of each kingdom, the same that the kingdoms of Navarra, Granada and Portugal kept being different and independent kingdoms in that date. If not, why in 1478 did Alfonso V de Portugal try to invade Castilla to mess with the sucession of that kingdom?
What you ignore, probably by your education at school, are the basic differences between Castilla, Leon, Asturias or Galicia and when they were independent kingdoms or were members of the same crown, not to speak of the creation of Aragon crown or Navarra. Spain wasn´t born never as that, it was a political target to reach that was said explicity 1.100 ago by Alfonso III, when btw the only recognized "spanish" sovereign north of Pyrinees was Abd el Rahman III. I just like dates, facts and laws, the rest is for you and this is about Germany.

[Lancero]

Spanish state it´s the oldest of Europe, with Portugal


We're actually a couple hundred years older than 'Spain'.


Of course, a kind of Terminator mission: galicians and asturians wiped the moors and populated that area north of Duero founding Guimaraens (blábláblá)


Were galicians and asturians 'spanish' at the time? No.


I haven´t time for byzantine discussions,Portugal is not older than Spain, different category: Portugal was born as a border county of one of the founders kingdoms of what today it´s Spain, actually 400 younger than some of those kingdoms that never ceased to exist.



Stop confusing Spain with Hispania or Iberia and you'll probably get somewere.
Fact 1: The Kingdom of Portugal was founded in 1143.
Fact 2: The Kingdom of Spain was founded in 1469 with the union, by marriage, of Castile and Aragon.


(...) Year of 1469 Spain wasn´t born (...)

Thanks for making my point.


I just like dates, facts and laws

Lulz.

[Sada]

Do you like to mystyfy my words as an sport or you´re a plain dumb? I say it clearly by nº time that Alfonso III of Asturias asumed the title of "king of spanish"(literal translation of the latin title) 1.100 years ago as the legitimate heir of the visigoth last king attributions, that was respected formally by all the existing christian kingdoms of the peninsula, none of which were Portugal: And one thing are political titles and other thing are the conscience that people have of themelves, when they coincide you have a nation-state, that usually aren´t born in one date by after a paulatine and oftenly long process, that´s what was talked by some people here before regarding Germany. There isn´t a single date to say mom was pregnant and Spain was born, but it´s fact that around 1600 many people around the globe considered that there was a state called "Spain" , it´s so absurd to say that Spain was born in 1469 that you don´t even realize of it, why not to say 588aC or 1808? Again, why Afonso V of Portugal tried to mess with Castilla and not with Navarra or Aragon 9 years after 1469? Was Portugal born in 1641? Let it be, you´re wrong and we don´t like each other.

[Lancero]

I'll take out my crayons for you.


Do you like to mystyfy my words as an sport or you´re a plain dumb? I say it clearly by nº time that Alfonso III of Asturias asumed the title of "king of spanish"(literal translation of the latin title) 1.100 years ago as the legitimate heir of the visigoth last king attributions,

Alfonso III of Asturias words were "In Dei nomine Adefonsus pro Chisti natu atque patentia Hispaniae rex". Key word is Hispaniae, wich translates to Hispania, wich was a territory, not a nation, state or kingdom.


And one thing are political titles and other thing are the conscience that people have of themelves, when they coincide you have a nation-state, that usually aren´t born in one date by after a paulatine and oftenly long process

We're discussing political titles, the sentence you first wrote that made me quote you was "spanish state"



There isn´t a single date to say mom was pregnant and Spain was born, but it´s fact that around 1600 many people around the globe considered that there was a state called "Spain" , it´s so absurd to say that Spain was born in 1469 that you don´t even realize of it, why not to say 588aC or 1808?

Because the Catholic Monarchs decided to start calling themselfs "Kings of Spain", as expressed in the Papal bulls and treaties. That made it internationaly as the Kingdom of Spain, despite beeing a union of a couple kingdoms - with common foreign policy, army and finances.




Again, why Afonso V of Portugal tried to mess with Castilla and not with Navarra or Aragon 9 years after 1469? Was Portugal born in 1641?

Because, say the historians, Henry IV of Castile (the Impotent) was gay and his only descendent was a daughter (the Beltraneja) that was believed to be the result of a fling between the Castile queen and a noble.
Afonso V just did what many others did at the time: married the niece (the Beltraneja) and claimed Castile throne. That went wrong for him.


we don´t like each other.

I dont even know you. But you might have a point. And I have no problems agreeing with you if the future makes me hate you.

[tluassa]

Can we get back from Spain to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsEEtb6zSlc

[Lancero]

Can we get back from Spain to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsEEtb6zSlc

Sorry for hijacking the thread :oops:
I'm done here.

[Gammelpreusse]

Sorry for hijacking the thread :oops:
I'm done here.

NP, it was a short, alas highly informative break in the original topic. You guys may want to open up a new thread for this, I'd be certainly interested. Portugal and Spain are low on the Radar, knowing more about their history and relations can't possibly hurt =)

Especially as Spain and the Holy Roman Empire shared some common royalty.

[shadowsrider]

But the topic is interesting.. when if fact German state was born?
From article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany#Middle_Ages I can see that we can talk about 2 dates: 919 or 936. Someone can elaborate?

[Gammelpreusse]

But the topic is interesting.. when if fact German state was born?
From article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany#Middle_Ages I can see that we can talk about 2 dates: 919 or 936. Someone can elaborate?

Good question. There is still dispute if the date is 800 with the formation of the holy roman empire (capital in Aachen, Germany, for our american friends here, the first german citiy allied forces sized in WW2) or what was to become Germany and France when these parts split. The holy roman empire was carried on in the german part, while the french set up their own reign. The question is also if german history before that, especially during roman times, is actually german history or something different. I guess it all comes down to definitions and opinions, I fail to see a hard fact at work here giving any date as definite. It all probably is a blurred history slowly merging into a national feeling latest with the adding of "of german nation " to the "holy roman empire" title in 1450. The consequent fragmentation of this political entity until its dissolution in 1806 (btw, Hitlers "1000" years Reich was a reference to the first Empire, back then considered running from 800 to 1806) doesn't help much, either. If we simply go by the concept of the modern nation state as it developed after the 30 years war, then 1871 would be the correct date.

It's...complicated.

[shadowsrider]

It all probably is a blurred history slowly merging into a national feeling latest with the adding of "of german nation " to the "holy roman empire" title in 1450.

Just small remark. The idea of "nation" was born in XVIII century. Before that there was a feeling of belonging to "the people of X: Germans, French" etc.
For instance "Teutonic Order of German House" (but not nation).

But "motherland" or "fatherland" existed earlier. For instance Polish poet Kochanowski uses the phrase "motherland" in XVI century.

[Difool]

Good question. There is still dispute if the date is 800 with the formation of the holy roman empire or what was to become Germany and France when these parts split. The holy roman empire was carried on in the german part, while the french set up their own reign. The question is also if german history before that, especially during roman times, is actually german history or something different. I guess it all comes down to definitions and opinions, I fail to see a hard fact at work here giving any date as definite. It all probably is a blurred history slowly merging into a national feeling latest with the adding of "of german nation " to the "holy roman empire" title. The consequent fragmentation of this political entity until its dissolution in 1806 (btw, Hitlers "1000" years Reich was a reference to the first Empire, back then considered running from 800 to 1806) doesn't help much, either.
The old Karl or Otto question. I learned in school that Karl the Great has been the first German Emperor but Guido Klopp (TV-Star historian) says Otto has been the first.


Just small remark. The idea of "nation" was born in XVIII century. Before that there was a feeling of belonging to "the people of X: Germans, French" etc.
For instance "Teutonic Order of German House" (but not nation).
I guess primarily a state had been defined as all countries under one crown.

[Gammelpreusse]

Just small remark. The idea of "nation" was born in XVIII century. Before that there was a feeling of belonging to "the people of X: Germans, French" etc.
For instance "Teutonic Order of German House" (but not nation).

Not quite. The concept of the nation state graduatly developed during the 17th century, with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 beeing a big cornerstone in the process. By the end of 18th century this process had already procceeded to almost modern standarts. After all nobody snipped fingers and then, all of a sudden, there were nation states, but it was a pretty long development involved. Growing conciousness of ethnical propulations bound by language and culture developed differently depending on region. I dare say the first manifestation of the "modern" nation state came into beeing after the french and american revolutions.

You also have to differ "nation" regarding people and state organisation, these are different definitions of the same term.

[Sada]

Hello all, I´d like just to leave some things mentioned above clean and clear: existance of historic facts aren´t disputable, what is disputable are consequences of those facts. It´s a fact that Alfonso III de Asturias, who was considered by his correspondents as "king of galicians" "king of leoneses" or "king of visigoths" in an explicit way reafirmed his category before other spanish christian kingdoms styling himself as "King" or better as "Emperor", you choose what you like: "Rex hispaniae", "Rex hispaniarum" and frequently as "Rex Hispanorum" translated as "King of Spaniards". There are diplomas, letters and coins with all this names. Alfonso III died in 910aC and he had clear in his mind he was trying to restaure the spanish kingdom of visigoths, of whom he was in fact a descendant. The next century, a key king in spanish history, Sancho III of Navarre, occupied Leon city after some quarrels too long to tell here: What it matters is that it´s after the navarre king controls the capital city of the heir kingdom of visigoths(Leon, Asturias and Galicia) that he calls himself "Rex hispaniarum" and even "Rex Ibericum" if there´s any doubt about the feelings of that people back then. All christian kings that ruled christian Spain 200 years after him were his descendants until today. It´s boring naming all kings that called themselves "rex hispaniarum" or "hispanorum"(Kings of all Spains) before Alfonso Henriques was born. People in Spain have to study many of this things the first course at Law School just because many "cartas puebla" and local privileges(town´s founding statutes) were given in those times and in many case were copied and given to new towns founded in the south. I´m sorry by the derive and it´s last time I speak above this.
Edit: A big time of Hª del Derecho´s matter was dedicated, at least in my time, to study a celebre academic polemy between Sanchez Albornoz and Americo Castro, two medioevalists. Albornoz stated that origins of current Spain begin only when the Reconquista and he stutided deeply they policies of those ancient kings, beginning with Alfonso III. Americo Castro said that current Spain it´s the result of a long series of peoples that came to Spain before before medioeval times and he included muslims and jew populations as contributors to the ethos of Spain, at least medioeval Spain.

[Sada]

About "nation", I agree most of what was said here, but I think in Europe there were different levels od development before 1648, before that year spanish(all included castillians, catalans and first of all basques), french or english had very clear in their mind to which nation they belonged to and it wasn´t the same condition in many territories of east Europe that today still are fighting by what they consider to be their "traditional national borders". To be considered a nation a group of people must a)being conscious of themselves as a differentiated community and b) having the will or wish of living by their own laws. Nations are alive, they evolutionate and never are like they were 500 years ago in the perception they have of themselves. Genoveses or sicilians were considered as nations 500 years ago although peoples living in italian peninsula were perceived to be as the same people in a whole. Definitively, the will of making a state of every nation was a thing of XIX, it almost substitued religions wars in Europe.

[Eye]

I have found Polish plot in that whole German-Prussian formation. Polish general - Ludwik Mierosławski was a commander of insurgent forces in Baden uprising in 1848. But actually they fought against Prussia AFAIK.

[JCR]

Baden uprising was the last stand of the parliament, after the prussians abolished it.
Many participants like Carl Schurz later fled to the US and became generals/politicians in the civil war.
Right now I don't know what the 1848 constitution would've meant for the polish speaking areas in west Prussia, but certainly a democracy would've led to greater rights for poles compared to prussian rule.

[johanness]

I have found Polish plot in that whole German-Prussian formation. Polish general - Ludwik Mierosławski was a commander of insurgent forces in Baden uprising in 1848.

No wonder the uprising was lost so fast ....

[User_Name]

No wonder the uprising was lost so fast ....
roflroflrofl
good one!

[Wojtop]

No wonder the uprising was lost so fast ....

You're from Baden? No wonder the uprising was lost so fast if your soldiers were as bright as you are.

[Difool]

You're from Baden? No wonder the uprising was lost so fast if your soldiers were as bright as you are.
That has got something to do with the yellow colour of their feet.
No, I'm kidding. I have lived in Baden and in Wuerttemberg and I like the people of Baden better. :)

[Eye]

No wonder the uprising was lost so fast ....
It is a sample of famous Prussian humour I suppose p-)

[johanness]

It is a sample of famous Prussian humour I suppose p-)

No, humor from Baden ( by the way, we are not famous for our sense of humor).

But to go back to your post Ludwik Mierosławski was not the only Pole who fought
on our side in the only real Revolution in Germany ... so no bad feelings to you.

;)

[johanness]

You're from Baden? No wonder the uprising was lost so fast if your soldiers were as bright as you are.


And you are from ...?

Maybe the sun is shining bright there.

You not.

[tluassa]

I really had a good laugh when I drove to my seminar this morning :)

A huge Wallpaper saying "We are Prussia !" - and the best thing about it is that its an official campaign from our Regional State Government :)

400 Years Prussia anniversary ... I already went into several museums that currently have special exibitions with the theme. Especially in Westfalia there is a lot of stuff going on at the moment.

http://www.wdr.de/themen/kultur/ausstellungen_03/preussen_1609/_img/plakat_400q.jpg

http://www.1609-nrw.de/

http://www.wdr.de/themen/kultur/ausstellungen_03/preussen_1609/index.jhtml


And finally, a funny picture showing the German National soccer team of 1908 :) Note the "trainer" on the right :) Doesnt he really look like the prototype of a prussian aristrocratic professor ? ^^

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/68/Deutsche_Fussball-Nationalmannschaft_erstes_Laenderspiel_1908.jpg

[SniperRu]

When did Prussia change its name to Deutschland? :) (<- only joking)

History of the names is interesting. Germany was called Germany by foreigners already 2000 years ago. :)

Funny thing about Finnish language is that whole Germany is still called Saksa after the Saxon tribes.

Saxon Paiman Koira p-) sounds awesome

French call the germans: "Allemans" (Allemand)
Russians call them: "Nemans" (Nemtsi)

but the coolest thing IMO is Greeks calling France "Gallika"

[Atlantic Friend]

but the coolest thing IMO is Greeks calling France "Gallika"

"Nos ancêtres les Gaulois" (Our ancestors, the Gauls), as generations of French kids (not to mention non-French kids living in French colonies) have been taught at school...

It's easier to say than "Our ancestors, the Gauls, the Romanized Gauls, the Wisigoths and the Franks".

[SniperRu]

"Nos ancêtres les Gaulois" (Our ancestors, the Gauls), as generations of French kids (not to mention non-French kids living in French colonies) have been taught at school...

It's easier to say than "Our ancestors, the Gauls, the Romanized Gauls, the Wisigoths and the Franks".

I know that of course, Ive watched Astérix et Obélix p-)

[JRT]

Funny thing about Finnish language is that whole Germany is still called Saksa after the Saxon tribes.

And Saksa is not the only example. Finnish word for Sweden, Ruotsi,is derived from Roslagen, which was the swedish word used to name the (Swedish) shores of the Baltic. Sweden in Estonian language, Rootsi, has the same origins. Most other languages I've come up with call Sweden something that has the Swe/Sve letters.

Finnish word for Estonia, Viro, comes of course from the Virumaa region of Estonia. Most of the languages know the place as something that has the letters Est.

Finnish/Estonian naming for Russia is also interesting. Most languages know the country by Rus/Ros - something after the Kievan Rus. However in Finnish the country is called Venäjä and in Estonian it's Venemaa.



Origins of names of places are indeed interesting.

[Kitsune]

Funny thing about Finnish language is that whole Germany is still called Saksa after the Saxon tribes.
Well, the English call Deutschland still Germany, after the Latin word for its people which was "Germani". Meanwhile, the French call the same country "Allemagne" after the Allemanni tribe who once ruled a large part of Western Germany. We Germans in return call France "Frankreich", meaning "Realm of the Franks" after the Frankish tribe. And so forth. So, the Finns with their Saksa name are not so special at all.

[JCR]

Ungarn (Hungary) doesn't really have much to do with Magyarország.
Or Georgia with Sakartvelo.

[Pvt.Anderson]

As a Bavarian I would feel offended if my nationality was "Prussian"

No Thanks ;)

[tluassa]

As a Bavarian I would feel offended if my nationality was "Prussian"

No Thanks ;)

Hey, that Bavarians and Prussians are a great match has even found its entrance into TV series :)

http://www.stupidedia.org/images/3/36/Oberst_Klink.jpg

http://forum.stalag13.de/attachment.php?attachmentid=237

[big_ski]

Prussia doesn't exist politically anymore, but certain values like punctuality, obedience, straightforwardness, dilligence, conscientiousness, austerity, sense of order are still typical German charasteristics originating from the times when Prussia ruled the German states.

Long live Prussia. :)

Indeed it does live on - in the midwestern United States where a lot of Prussians settled in the mid-19th century. My Pommerainian ancestors settled in 1847. They landed first in Wisconsin but soon moved west to Minnesota - probably because they couldn't stand the other Prussians. I tend to believe the American work ethic came from the German immigrants or at least, they contributed a lot to that concept.

[tluassa]

Indeed it does live on - in the midwestern United States where a lot of Prussians settled in the mid-19th century. My Pommerainian ancestors settled in 1847. They landed first in Wisconsin but soon moved west to Minnesota - probably because they couldn't stand the other Prussians. I tend to believe the American work ethic came from the German immigrants or at least, they contributed a lot to that concept.

:) Well Protestantism was "invented" by some guy from the small German town of "Eisleben" ...

[valtrex]

Saxon Paiman Koira p-) sounds awesome

French call the germans: "Allemans" (Allemand)
Russians call them: "Nemans" (Nemtsi)

but the coolest thing IMO is Greeks calling France "Gallika"
Actually it's Γαλλία (Gallia, with the stress on -i-) and Germany, Γερμανία (Germania, with the stress on -i-)

Ungarn (Hungary) doesn't really have much to do with Magyarország.
Or Georgia with Sakartvelo
Or Greece with Hellas (Ελλάς)

[Switek]

...
But "motherland" or "fatherland" existed earlier. For instance Polish poet Kochanowski uses the phrase "motherland" in XVI century.


In German sense of the notion: "Heimat" .

[valtrex]

Just small remark. The idea of "nation" was born in XVIII century. Before that there was a feeling of belonging to "the people of X: Germans, French" etc.
For instance "Teutonic Order of German House" (but not nation).

But "motherland" or "fatherland" existed earlier. For instance Polish poet Kochanowski uses the phrase "motherland" in XVI century.
The concept of belonging to a body of people with a shared ethnic origin is as old as recorded history is. Homer has something to say on this:
"[when Odysseus' comrades land on the island of Circe, she gave them to drink Pramnian wine mixed with baneful drugs]...ἵνα πάγχυ λαθοίατο πατρίδος αἴης, that they might utterly forget their native land" (English translation of Homer's Odyssey by Samuel Butler, Odyssey Book 10:236).
So, the concept of fatherland (πατρίς, patris in Homeric Greek, patria in Spanish and Italian, patrie in French, and I'm sure in every Romance language, all feminine nouns), which is the land of the forefathers (father->pater, fatherland->patris) is part of the human psyche at least since the 7th century BC

[Switek]

In Polish the term "ojczyzna" (fatherland) comes from the word "ojcowizna" - a hereditary part of land, previously belonged to father. Initially it really meant "native land".

[Sada]

The concept of belonging to a body of people with a shared ethnic origin is as old as recorded history is. Homer has something to say on this:
"[when Odysseus' comrades land on the island of Circe, she gave them to drink Pramnian wine mixed with baneful drugs]...ἵνα πάγχυ λαθοίατο πατρίδος αἴης, that they might utterly forget their native land" (English translation of Homer's Odyssey by Samuel Butler, Odyssey Book 10:236).
So, the concept of fatherland (πατρίς, patris in Homeric Greek, patria in Spanish and Italian, patrie in French, and I'm sure in every Romance language, all feminine nouns), which is the land of the forefathers (father->pater, fatherland->patris) is part of the human psyche at least since the 7th century BC
Fully agree. In fact old greeks for the most part of their history lived fighting each others divided in many states by they were conscious of being members of a main body of people that prayed to the same gods and spoke the same language.

[Domen]

Russians call them: "Nemans" (Nemtsi)


Poles call them "Niemcy", which originated from the word "niemi" - which means - "speech-impaired people", because they couldn't understand our language.

No surprise - by the way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmwnV-CbGuw

[Breerman]

Germany is called Tyskland in Scandinavia. Germans have always been called tyskar or tysker.

Russia is called Ryssland but was originally called Svitjod det stora (Great Sweden) or Gårdarike (land of farms/trade settlements). The reason it was never called Russia before modern times was because the Swedes were the ones who were called Rus and Ruser. Sweden is still called Ruotsi in Finland and Rootsi in Estonian.

[Breerman]

Not quite. The concept of the nation state graduatly developed during the 17th century
Most actually say in the 19th century and not 17th century, but either way it's just a modern liberal myth.

[Gammelpreusse]

Most actually say in the 19th century and not 17th century, but either way it's just a modern liberal myth.

Possible. Many historians see the peace of Westpahlia 1648 as the birth of the nation state, but as usual in history, it's just one fixed date in a process that can't be fixed, really, and that developed individually in any given country.