Democracy 'not needed' in Russia

[Derbedeu]

A growing number of Russians believe their country does not need democracy, a nationwide survey by one of Russia's leading polling agencies suggests.
The poll by the Levada-Centre showed that 57% of those questioned considered that Russia needed democracy - the lowest number since 2006.
It said 26% believed that democratic governing was not suitable for Russia.
Nearly 95% of respondents said they had little or no influence on what was happening in the country.
'Rigged' election
Levada-Centre said 1,600 people across Russia had been questioned in the poll which was released on Friday.


Although the majority of them believe the country needs to be democratic, the results of the survey are an intriguing mix, the BBC's Richard Galpin in Moscow says.
The majority (60%) also said it would be better for Russia if the president controlled both the courts and the parliament, which can hardly be described as a democratic aspiration, our correspondent says.
The poll also suggested that 43% agreed with the question that the country sometimes needed an "iron fist" leader.
And nearly 25% said the Soviet Union had a better political system that the current Russian model (36%) or that in Western countries (15%).
The poll came as Russian police arrested 10 people in Moscow who were protesting against an alleged fraud in last weekend's regional and local elections.
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's United Russia party tightened its already overwhelming grip on power after the polls, our correspondent says.
But three parties walked out of parliament earlier this week, protesting against the outcome of the elections. Two later returned, but the Communists are continuing their boycott.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8311189.stm

[The Dane]

Nearly 95% of respondents said they had little or no influence on what was happening in the country.

Wow ... that's almost everybody ..

[Smitty_Damitty]

To each his own. Whatever system they decide on will not be as closed and authoritative as the old one, so why do these think tanks feel the need to call them out on it?

In conclusion, whateverz.

[ATA]

it kind of imposes opinion about political system and views on it, but I believe the actual characteristics of nation/social enviroment is the answer...

[shoora]

Wow ... that's almost everybody ..

it kind of imposes opinion about political system and views on it, but I believe the actual characteristics of nation/social enviroment is the answer...
I do not like pulls - they always made to trick you. And I do not like BBC pulls in particular, because they are biased. Their public social studies is some sort of applied (quote) "science" and directed to achieve particular editors task.
But I would not argue, however, that in Russia electors influence on political life is rather insignificant. Just like i any other democratic country - US, UK, Germany. You name it. Russians, unlike Americans and Europeans, only have natural immunity to propaganda. Official propaganda in Russia made to many hard turns in last quarter century. Western propaganda are much smoother and persistent. It works almost on subconsciousness level. It even mimics different opinions and it is so constant that it did not even noticed collapse of Soviet Union and communist ideology. Just replaced word "USSR" with word "Russia" and that is it. It's so funny, when normal people and politics still call them "commies", "soviets" and sometimes even say USSR instead of Russia:-)

But don't you think that perceptible lack of influence is not the exactly the same as lack of approval. Approval rating of Medvedev-Putin tandem is very high.

Actually, don't fool yourself - you influence on national policy is not higher than 5%. Or, it's better to say, only 5% of population or less are able to projects influence on national policy.

[zg18]

To each his own. Whatever system they decide on will not be as closed and authoritative as the old one, so why do these think tanks feel the need to call them out on it?

In conclusion, whateverz.

Your right, if people don't want "democracy" ,it's their choice , it's democratic... BUT Russians of today connect word democracy with "dermocracy" in the 90's. My opinion is that Russia will evolve similar to US rather than Europe , probably two party system or more of the same.

[Akril]

I wouldn't mind "democracy" in Japanese way: 50 years one party makes profit and rapid modernization, and only later some "change" emerge.
In fact it is what the government trying to do - copying Japan and South Korea. They do it through the ass, I add, but it is still better than the mess of Boris times or in several neighboring counties.

[Ordie]

I don't think any Russian Leader will give up on Democracy on the premise that they need it to legitimize thier authority at home and abroad.

[Digimon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8311189.stm

Pollsters are not analysts, which means that they do not distinguish what a question means from how it is understood by the respondents. When Russians deny the value of democracy in a poll, it is unclear whether they deny the real concept or what they had learned to associate with democracy in the late 80's and early 90's.

As far as the feeling that Russians have no effect on policy is concerned, this is a general attitude born, it appears, in historically nurtured political apathy. Russians in general hold on to this position regardless of what political systems they find themselves in, and I have frequently discussed it with those who have lived in the West for many years. Affecting change through electoral process is simply not a part of the Russian social "psyche," yet, without a doubt, they have significant effect on what is happening in the country, either through voting or abstaining from it. When Russians consider the question of whether they can affect what is happening to them, they typically view it as the question of whether they individually can make the change, not as part of the collective. So, their apathy reflects the banal, but misleading, truth that one voice makes no difference.

As far as the iron fist is concerned, it is another misconception. Russians are not denying democracy by wishing for an iron fist, they deny anarchy. They do not wish to allow the "dictator" to do whatever the dictator desired, they wish to allow the "dictator" to do what they wish to be done (i.e. rule of law). They do not like Putin because he is a dictator, they like him because (and only so long as) he already does what the majority wishes him to do. So, they like him because he reflects the democratic choice, which Eltsin, despite the contrary label, did not. Were the dictator acting in the manner of Eltsin, they would vote him out of office (as they surely did in 1996).

[shoora]

I wouldn't mind "democracy" in Japanese way: 50 years one party makes profit and rapid modernization, and only later some "change" emerge.
In fact it is what the government trying to do - copying Japan and South Korea. They do it through the ass, I add, but it is still better than the mess of Boris times or in several neighboring counties.
Putin wanted to replicate US and UK system with only two parties, but it did not worked out as of today. Everyone want to be on a same, champion boat. Looks like Japanese way is more realistic.



The majority (60%) also said it would be better for Russia if the president controlled both the courts and the parliament, which can hardly be described as a democratic aspiration, our correspondent says.
Actually, for Russians balance of power does not have such religious meaning as for Brits or Americans. And since whole idea means nothing to them, how possibly they can give meaningful answer to the question.
Most of Russians would believe
1) court MUST be independent,
2) court MUST be fair.
3) fairness is above law and precedents.
4) punishment must be severe but merciful (no one knows how to combine these two :-)
Another thing they do not understand, is how parliament could accept law, which can later be questioned in court. "Those guys in parliament must be an idiots", they would say.

[CPL Trevoga]

We should have finished off Brits with Germans in 39. I wouldn't have to listen to this British stupidity. The country that has kings and queens, likes in a middle ages.

[Jack Daniels]

I don't think anyone takes BBC seriously anymore.

I think i would prefer watching FOX news more...

[RIPTIDE]

Ah. The BBC. Tomorrow it'll be Hate Israel day, the day after, hate Russia day again. :lol:

[Derbedeu]

We should have finished off Brits with Germans in 39. I wouldn't have to listen to this British stupidity. The country that has kings and queens, likes in a middle ages.

Not only inaccurate, but also downright insulting. Very classy. :roll:


I don't think anyone takes BBC seriously anymore.

I think i would prefer watching FOX news more...



Ah. The BBC. Tomorrow it'll be Hate Israel day, the day after, hate Russia day again. :lol:


Very nice and all, however may I draw all of your attention to the following:


a nationwide survey by one of Russia's leading polling agencies suggests.
The poll by the Levada-Centr...

The center was founded in 1987, during the Soviet Union. It's also the oldest polling institution in the post-Soviet space and is one of the leading sociological and market research companies in Russia. The BBC is just reporting the stats. Don't shoot the messenger. ;-)

[RIPTIDE]

The center was founded in 1987, during the Soviet Union. It's also the oldest polling institution in the post-Soviet space and is one of the leading sociological and market research companies in Russia. The BBC is just reporting the stats. Don't shoot the messenger. ;-)



"Levada" was created in 2003. Before that they were called something else, set up by Gorby. In 2003 they had a row with the government and then set up their "Levada" centre. :)


As for the BBC, I just love how they dress up their articles with Bullshyte stuffing. The commentary is provided also by some wanker from the Moscow office of the BBC. The same office that edited out online question and answers in relation to the Chechen war?? :D


One can fool some of the people for all the time, but not all the people all of the time. ;)

[Derbedeu]

^^^ The organization is an independent one though, and they have always been recognized as a reliable one.

Edit: Re:
The commentary is provided also by some wanker from the Moscow office of the BBC.

There were only three commentaries made in this article:


Although the majority of them believe the country needs to be democratic, the results of the survey are an intriguing mix, the BBC's Richard Galpin in Moscow says.They are interesting. At least I found them so.


The majority (60%) also said it would be better for Russia if the president controlled both the courts and the parliament, which can hardly be described as a democratic aspiration, our correspondent says. Nothing outrageous about this statement. Having executive, legislative, and judicial power in the hands of one man is hardly democratic. He also avoids stating that it's undemocratic, which IMO is an important distinction. After all, it could be that the President is seen as incorruptible as opposed to the latter two institutions. Hence the poll numbers on this question.


Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's United Russia party tightened its already overwhelming grip on power after the polls, our correspondent says.Factually correct, no? United Russia gained seats, didn't it?

[dracon49]

Democracy has good things and bad things-its not white or black. For Russia totalitarian regime is better ,because their economic/social issues(they have almost 30 million ppl that earn 100 dollars for month if i dont have a mistake)if they had a democracy they would conflicts with the government and then government couldnt really control it. Now no one will do anything(like riots and stuff like that) because those economic issues ,because they will be dealt seriously by their police and im saying it from the point of view of the government(that they dont want democracy), im pretty sure the ppl would want to have more rights then they have now you can see for example that journalists get killed(i dont know if the government has an hand in it, but it happends a lot in Russia compare to other countries).

[Jack Daniels]

Democracy has good things and bad things-its not white or black. For Russia totalitarian regime is better ,because their economic/social issues(they have almost 30 million ppl that earn 100 dollars for month if i dont have a mistake)if they had a democracy they would conflicts with the government and then government couldnt really control it. Now no one will do anything(like riots and stuff like that) because those economic issues ,because they will be dealt seriously by their police and im saying it from the point of view of the government(that they dont want democracy), im pretty sure the ppl would want to have more rights then they have now you can see for example that journalists get killed(i dont know if the government has an hand in it, but it happends a lot in Russia compare to other countries).
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj300/Zhusuke/CoolStoryBro.jpg

[Switek]

I don't think any Russian Leader will give up on Democracy on the premise that they need it to legitimize thier authority at home and abroad.

The problem is they have already started. The scale of latest local ballot-rigging made Russia another third word country...

The problem is the West buys this fake legitimation.

[smile]

The problem is they have already started. The scale of latest local ballot-rigging made Russia another third word country...

The problem is the West buys this fake legitimation.
If you mean curent elections, than where is your problem with this? We have in 2 weeks small elections in the region, i can bet one party has already won.
It is your own problem, not the West.

[Jack Daniels]

The problem is they have already started. The scale of latest local ballot-rigging made Russia another third word country..

And you know this how? Did you check them all by yourself? We all know you love Russia a lot but that's a bit too much. There could be hundreds of reports about election in Russia but i am sure you'll pick the one where Russia will be shown as 'Evil'.

I honestly don't even know why i bother, this would be like trying to convince Hitler that Jews aren't bad, pointless....

Btw, this is 2009, not 1939...

[Switek]

And you know this how? Did you check them all by yourself?

Seems that members of Duma also have no clue what they claim... :roll:


We all know you love Russia a lot but that's a bit too much. There could be hundreds of reports about election in Russia but i am sure you'll pick the one where Russia will be shown as 'Evil'.

You don't know what my attitude toward Russia and Russians is. You twist two different notions Russia as a country and its fabulous regime labeling critics of Putinism enemies of whole Russia... classic fail :cantbeli:


I honestly don't even know why i bother, this would be like trying to convince Hitler that Jews aren't bad, pointless....

What the heck are you talking about?


Btw, this is 2009, not 1939...

irrelevant

[TR1]

I agree.

All Russia needs is a new nuclear policy.

[the_Wicked]

Here we go again...

[coltfan111]

As an Englishman I agree about the BBC's anti Russian biased. They have a great ability to inflate statistics,mis represent them and so on.

[Lokos]

The scale of latest local ballot-rigging made Russia another third word country...

Switek, do you really believe the inane things you sometimes post here?

Frankly, it's embarrassing.

L.

[matthew.manhorn]

Given that this is from BBC I don't find it credible

[Difool]

Democracy is not = democracy. One can claim his own system is superior to that of another country. But I don't give a ...
There is no final ideal system. You can watch the growing lost of trust in the system in western countries, too. At the end every society gets the system it deserves/needs until the circumstances change. It's just my humble opinion. Don't get me wrong. I think democracy is a great thing but there are many other factors.

[Switek]

Switek, do you really believe the inane things you sometimes post here?

Frankly, it's embarrassing.

L.


Can you deny many claims and proofs given by Duma members?

[Switek]

Democracy is not = democracy. One can claim his own system is superior to that of another country. But I don't give a ...
There is no final ideal system. You can watch the growing lost of trust in the system in western countries, too. At the end every society gets the system it deserves/needs until the circumstances change. It's just my humble opinion. Don't get me wrong. I think democracy is a great thing but there are many other factors.

I would believe you when you go back to Russia, man... :roll:

[saturnin]

I agree.

All Russia needs is a new nuclear policy.

Really? is that all what Russia needs :)

they will soon live in paradise then. Anyway it is up to them what they like and what they get. Howewer chance to change government is nice when something go wrong, but they know better..

[zg18]

Really? is that all what Russia needs :)

they will soon live in paradise then. Anyway it is up to them what they like and what they get. Howewer chance to change government is nice when something go wrong, but they know better..

Like in 1996 when Yeltsin "won" elections against Zyuganov? I'm sure BBC wasn't so much worried about state of democracy in Russia during the 90's , killings of a journalists , corruption ,unemployment ,rise of violence, crushing opposition,complete absence of any law was much much higher than in Putin's period ,but somehow some Western propagandistic media started to scream about human rights ,lack of democracy ,lack of opposition in Putin's second term in office , i wonder why??

[dracon49]

Its hypocrisy ,but now also the situation isnt really good ,especially the economic situation (around 30 million earn 100 dollars per month). In Russia you have more billionaires then any other country in the world ,but also more poor than any other country(maybe not like China and very few countries).

[Switek]

... i wonder why??

Because Putin promised to guard such laws?

[saturnin]

Like in 1996 when Yeltsin "won" elections against Zyuganov? I'm sure BBC wasn't so much worried about state of democracy in Russia during the 90's , killings of a journalists , corruption ,unemployment ,rise of violence, crushing opposition,complete absence of any law was much much higher than in Putin's period ,but somehow some Western propagandistic media started to scream about human rights ,lack of democracy ,lack of opposition in Putin's second term in office , i wonder why??

wait, wasn´t it russian people who voted for Putin??? didn´t they changed situation to what they think is better for them? I wrote about general principle of democracy you started about journalist, corruption etc.

[zg18]

Because Putin promised to guard such laws?

Putin was hand picked under strange circumstances by Yeltsin , i don't know what he promised to guard ,but he did brought stabilization to a country , that's the most important , if Boris Nemcov is "hero" of the opposition , a man caught while taking bribe , and now with rest babbling about corruption in Russia ,i find this ridicules ,don't you?

[zg18]

wait, wasn´t it russian people who voted for Putin??? didn´t they changed situation to what they think is better for them? I wrote about general principle of democracy you started about journalist, corruption etc.

I don't believe in any Russian elections since demise of USSR , simply democracy doesn't work in Russia.

[saturnin]

Putin was hand picked under strange circumstances by Yeltsin , i don't know what he promised to guard ,but he did brought stabilization to a country , that's the most important , if Boris Nemcov is "hero" of the opposition , a man caught while taking bribe , and now with rest babbling about corruption in Russia ,i find this ridicules ,don't you?

please calm dawn, read with clear mind my original post. Relax.

btw if democracy according to you doesn´t work, what else? what control mechanism?

[Switek]

Putin was hand picked under strange circumstances by Yeltsin , i don't know what he promised to guard ,but he did brought stabilization to a country , that's the most important , if Boris Nemcov is "hero" of the opposition , a man caught while taking bribe , and now with rest babbling about corruption in Russia ,i find this ridicules ,don't you?


Seems I can hear Nazi argumentation.... Damn, I thought we live in other world...

[zg18]

Seems I can hear Nazi argumentation.... Damn, I thought we live in other world...

Nazi? You're delusional.

[zg18]

please calm dawn, read with clear mind my original post. Relax.

btw if democracy according to you doesn´t work, what else? what control mechanism?

It's very simple , Russia has returned to it's Byzantine roots, Russia has neo-byzantine system , some countries can't escape from their past, i'm not saying that democracy doesn't works , but i'm one of those who thinks that democracy simply can't work in all countries, you have to take history ,people's memories ,mentality into account ,i simply can't seriously expect from either China or Russia to become democratic countries after 2000 years (or 1000 years for Russia) of their domestic system rule , it's simply naive.

[Switek]

Nazi? You're delusional.
You'd love me to be.... Look at as latest local elections claims min Russia, look carefully...

[zg18]

You'd love me to be.... Look at as latest local elections claims min Russia, look carefully...

OK , what's Nazi there?

[saturnin]

It's very simple , Russia has returned to it's Byzantine roots, Russia has neo-byzantine system , some countries can't escape from their past, i'm not saying that democracy doesn't works , but i'm one of those who thinks that democracy simply can't work in all countries, you have to take history ,people's memories ,mentality into account ,i simply can't seriously expect from either China or Russia to become democratic countries after 2000 years (or 1000 years for Russia) of their domestic system rule , it's simply naive.

first democracy is quite a "large" term. Look at democracy in USA, EU, Swizerland, Japan etc. there are millions of aspect you can set different to work for concrete "needs". Voting system, competence, electoral term. relation between constitution (if that exist in system), parlament, prezident, courts of different types, local government etc.....

second all society change during time. Russia is not Byzantine anymore :roll:. Russian is not even same as twenty years back. Who would expect in 1945 Japan to change so much??? there are thousands of similar examples.

Nice example is local government.Election is nice way for governence of village, where it is clearly that people vote man they know, and there is press on him to know what they want to change etc..

[zg18]

first democracy is quite a "large" term. Look at democracy in USA, EU, Swizerland, Japan etc. there are millions of aspect you can set different to work for concrete "needs". Voting system, competence, electoral term. relation between constitution (if that exist in system), parlament, prezident, courts of different types, local government etc.....

second all society change during time. Russia is not Byzantine anymore :roll:. Russian is not even same as twenty years back. Who would expect in 1945 Japan to change so much??? there are thousands of similar examples.

Nice example is local government.Election is nice way for governence of village, where it is clearly that people vote man they know, and there is press on him to know what they want to change etc..


You don't understand , Russia is a Byzantine country , not in a sense of some virtual Byzantine Empire that was erased by Turks in 1453 but by it's system.In any case , i agree with you about various aspects of democracy it comes in many packages but when we talk about Russia, she will never look like Western style democracy. Even if we try to find some pair , from my perspective US system is much closer to any future Russian systems.

[saturnin]

You don't understand , Russia is a Byzantine country , not in a sense of some virtual Byzantine Empire that was erased by Turks in 1453 but by it's system.In any case , i agree with you about various aspects of democracy it comes in many packages but when we talk about Russia, she will never look like Western style democracy. Even if we try to find some pair , from my perspective US system is much closer to any future Russian systems.

could you be more specific. Any society is about individuall people. Russians now is different (at least it is my opinion) to people in Byzantine...

btw. in literature Japan is often counted as Western style democry, though their individuall (and because of that also social) thinking is different to Americans, Europeans. Still democracy "work" there...

[smile]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSOOCos6Es4&feature=related

[Difool]

I would believe you when you go back to Russia, man... :roll:

Why back? I'm born in Germany, my ancestors have been living here at least since the 13th century. We fought and died for democracy, our freedom and unity in the 19th century. Why should I go to Russia? Of course if all is lost I would leave with my family, but I still believe in democracy and the voice of our people. The problem is that a mechanism is becoming rusty after long years.
Btw. I've got relatives in Russia and the U.S.A. and I like both countries with their pros and contras. Russia is no option for me at the moment. I know what the people have to fight with. But the "democratic" Yeltsin times have been worse. Do you know how many Russian journalists have been killed at that time?

[zg18]

could you be more specific. Any society is about individuall people. Russians now is different (at least it is my opinion) to people in Byzantine...

btw. in literature Japan is often counted as Western style democry, though their individuall (and because of that also social) thinking is different to Americans, Europeans. Still democracy "work" there...

Well, i could explain , but you know what , you should see documentary "Fall of an Empire- Lessons for Russia" ,made by Tikhon Shevkunov ,close Putin's friend, i will not exaggerate by saying that you can see part of how modern elites think in Russia.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/KI09Ag01.html

[saturnin]

Well, i could explain , but you know what , you should see documentary "Fall of an Empire- Lessons for Russia" ,made by Tikhon Shevkunov ,close Putin's friend, i will not exaggerate by saying that you can see part of how modern elites think in Russia.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/KI09Ag01.html


this is citation from what you posted:

"The Russian elite's views on the present are often shrouded in historical allusion. The past has become politicized; a special government commission was recently formed to fight "falsification of history".

Of the myriad historical books and, especially, historical movies that have been produced with direct encouragement from the government, none provides as comprehensive a vision of Russia's global role as the movie The Fall of an Empire - the Lesson of Byzantium. It was produced by Tikhon about a year ago and remains relevant in providing an inside view of Russia's elite. [1]

The widely acclaimed movie on the surface deals with the Byzantine Empire, which collapsed under the pressure of the Ottoman Turks in 1453, after 1,123 years. Still, the allusion to the present is clear; and viewers cannot doubt that the movie is not about the distant past, but rather about Russia today.

The point of the movie is that the Byzantine Empire was a great Orthodox civilization that was not just the equal to the Orthodox West but superior to it in its cultural splendor and economic development.

The empire prospered when it maintained its attachment to Orthodoxy and the social-political system that rested upon it. A strong central power controlled both political and economic life. It was Orthodoxy that instilled Russians with a sense of love for their state. The mighty state was able to fend for itself and fought successfully against Muslims - that is, until it engaged with the West.

The Westerners were not Orthodox, yet the Byzantines regarded them as Christian brothers and took their polite and friendly gestures at face value. This was a grave illusion. The Westerners deeply hated the Byzantines as Orthodox, and their smiles were just a mask. The smiling masks worn during a Venetian carnival in the movie are a symbol of the West: external friendliness covering a predatory nature.

Dreaming about fighting a common enemy - Islam - the Byzantines cooperated with the Western Crusaders. But, instead of fighting the Muslims, the Crusaders in 1204 ransacked Constantinople (Istanbul), the empire's capital, from which they took immense riches that later became the financial foundations of European economic development.

The economic and political blows, however, were not the most dangerous. Most detrimental for the empire was the spiritual and social degeneration that followed. The influence of Orthodoxy went into decline as Western creeds gained ground. As a result, individualism spread, and the state started to lose its grip over the economy.

Even more dangerous was the development of the narrow ethnic nationalism of various ethnic groups of the empire who forsook their trans-ethnic Orthodox imperial identity. Weakened from all sides and betrayed by the West, the Byzantine Empire collapsed, and the Muslim Turks took over.

The strong implication of the movie is that the ultimate danger is seen as coming from the East, from both the Muslim and non-Muslim worlds, the only force that could engulf Russia and erase it completely from the surface of the Earth.

The West is of hardly any help, though while the Muslim challenge is open, the Western danger is more subtle. An excerpt from the movie, "The West's vengeful hatred of Byzantium and her successors is entirely inexplicable to the West itself; it goes to some deep genetic level, and - as paradoxical as this may seem - continues even to the present day.""
source: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/KI09Ag01.html

sorry but are you serrious? if that is what those people think, then they would not pass even first test (history classes, sociology, politology,...) in my Uni, that much about "elite".

[zg18]

sorry but are you serrious? if that is what those people think, then they would not pass even first test (history classes, sociology, politology,...) in my Uni, that much about "elite".

Well ,of course , it's writers impression from "Atimes", not exactly my opinion , but there's something in the phrase "history repeat itself" , there is still old distrust between East and West , i won't use harsher words, in any case you should see the documentary to form your view,i for one think that writer didn't mention critical view towards later Byzantium what is in fact critical view of modern Russia (poverty, greed, corruption etc.) .

[Dodge]

Wow ... that's almost everybody ..

At least these people acknowledge that they have no say, unlike people here in the UK or US, who think they do, but don't really.

[saturnin]

Well ,of course , it's writers impression from "Atimes", not exactly my opinion , but there's something in the phrase "history repeat itself" , there is still old distrust between East and West , i won't use harsher words, in any case you should see the documentary to form your view.

look, what I have citated is nothing more than collection of desire, prejudice, intolerance, illogis, which used biased and really stupid (BarendSa kind) fictitious tall story called history. This is quite simillar in some aspect to Hitler ideology...

one more time:
Dreaming about fighting a common enemy - Islam - the Byzantines cooperated with the Western Crusaders. But, instead of fighting the Muslims, the Crusaders in 1204 ransacked Constantinople (Istanbul), the empire's capital, from which they took immense riches that later became the financial foundations of European economic development."

how can we take this serriously???

btw. Russia is now quite multicultural state. Any "elite" know that and act according to this. Ideology expresed in article advocated stronger state isolated from "west" and "east". It ask for nation which is stronger, which in reality mean less control and questionong of official policy - so somebody can have free hands to control economy and get more profit/power. Article is so stupid that i can´t find words to express that :-(

[Dodge]

double post

[happyslapper]

Amazing how so many have jumped to criticise the BBC, for doing it's fvcking job!
It was not a ''BBC Poll'', it was by a Russian polling agency. If any of these prats who get such a kick of telling us their outdated, pathetically juveline political stance about the BBC had actually bothered to read the initial post, they'd realise that.
:roll:

[zg18]

look, what I have citated is nothing more than collection of desire, prejudice, intolerance, illogis, which used biased and really stupid (BarendSa kind) fictitious tall story colled history. This is quite simillar in some aspect to Hitler ideology...

one more time:
Dreaming about fighting a common enemy - Islam - the Byzantines cooperated with the Western Crusaders. But, instead of fighting the Muslims, the Crusaders in 1204 ransacked Constantinople (Istanbul), the empire's capital, from which they took immense riches that later became the financial foundations of European economic development."

how can we take this serriously???

btw. Russia is now quite multicultural state. Any "elite" know that and act according to this. Ideology expresed in article advocated stronger state isolated from "west" and "east". It ask for nation which is stronger, which in reality mean less control and questionong of official policy - so somebody can have free hands to control economy and get more profit/power. Article is so stupid that i can´t find words to express that :-(

I also find article not to be good , but it's interesting point of view , the guy is professor in the USA, he focused his article around foreign politics ,foreign "threats" , it's his main impression of the documentary , while my impression is that documentary is metaphor for problems of modern Russia ,as i said , it proves my point about mutual distrust and complete ignorance. Byzantine system is a system of law, strong political center of power , pragmatism in the foreign politics , it's obviously the path which Russia will follow.

[saturnin]

I also find article not to be good , but it's interesting point of view , the guy is professor in the USA, he focused his article around foreign politics ,foreign "threats" , it's his main impression of the documentary , while my impression is that documentary is metaphor for problems of modern Russia ,as i said , it proves my point about mutual distrust and complete ignorance. Byzantine system is a system of law, strong political center of power , pragmatism in the foreign politics , it's obviously the path which Russia will follow.

Interesting only because it show that PhD itself doesn´t say much about intteligence and education of particular person.

It is not metaphor. He obviously want Russia to became something he desire and he wrench history, etc. to create some "ideology" which is "best for Russia" according to him.

"a system of law, strong political center of power , pragmatism in the foreign politics , it's obviously the path which Russia will follow."
this doesn´t necessarily mean no "democracy". Someone can say that you just described USA political system :)

[zg18]

Interesting only because it show that PhD itself doesn´t say much about intteligence and education of particular person.

It is not metaphor. He obviously want Russia to became something he desire and he wrench history, etc. to create some "ideology" which is "best for Russia" according to him.

"a system of law, strong political center of power , pragmatism in the foreign politics , it's obviously the path which Russia will follow."
this doesn´t necessarily mean no "democracy". Someone can say that you just described USA political system :)

Like i said p-) , any future Russia will look more like US than Europe, ohh and i should also mention about special love of US founders for Roman Empire (Byzantium is East Rome) , we can see it from many important buildings in Washington DC (architecture) ;-)

[marlowwe]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8311189.stm

Anyone reading this article has to be careful because if taken literally, one would get the incorrect impression that Russians prefer some sort of autocratic form of government as opposed to a real democratic one. From the poll it is obvious Russians don't want the kind of pseudo-democracy which is present in the United States or one that resembles the Yeltsin years.

[saturnin]

Like i said p-) , any future Russia will look more like US than Europe, ohh and i should also mention about special love of US founders for Roman Empire (Byzantium is East Rome) , we can see it from many important buildings in Washington DC (architecture) ;-)

actually when we speak about dreaming :) Russian "elite" would maybe more pleased by old UK political system. You know: Queen, Hereditary peer, etc p-)

as for Roman Empire and US founders if you would actually read their papers they really weren´t much into collonies becaming Roman Empire p-), we have peaces of simillar architecture even there and Prague was local city of Austria-Hungary empire.

[zg18]

actually when we speak about dreaming :) Russian "elite" would maybe more pleased by old UK political system. You know: Queen, Hereditary peer, etc p-)

as for Roman Empire and US founders if you would actually read their papers they really weren´t much into collonies becaming Roman Empire p-), we have peaces of simillar architecture even there and Prague was local city of Austria-Hungary empire.

Yep i visited Prague ,the city of many 19th century Croatian students :) , it was the key place of education for patriotic Croatian elite in Austro-Hungary.

It's not about becoming 'Roman empire' but the Roman system and Athenian democracy US founders liked , it's not strange that coat of arms have eagle and latin inscriptions , institutions called Senate , symbolic at least etc.

UK old political systems p-) you want to make Putin as Tzar? For Tzar and motherland.

[saturnin]

Yep i visited Prague ,the city of many 19th century Croatian students :) , it was the key place of education for patriotic Croatian elite in Austro-Hungary.

It's not about becoming 'Roman empire' but the Roman system and Athenian democracy US founders liked , it's not strange that coat of arms have eagle and latin inscriptions , institutions called Senate , symbolic at least etc.

UK old political systems p-) you want to make Putin as Tzar? For Tzar and motherland.

I was just joking about queen/medvedevm, oligarchs/peers, prime minister/Putin. :)

there are still many croatian students here. btw back in Austro-Hungary for elite Czechs it was popular to have villa in Croatia to enjoy sea.

I would also do not overestimate symbols like eagle, lion..., different people see different symbols/meaning behind them. In history Roman empire was many times idealised, thus people didn´t have clue what life in Roman empire actually was about and how those people viewed world.

[Lokos]

Can you deny many claims and proofs given by Duma members?

Since I wasn't referring to any rigged election, but to the conclusion that such a thing makes Russia a 'third world country', I don't need to.

Get a grip.

L.

[Switek]

Since I wasn't referring to any rigged election, but to the conclusion that such a thing makes Russia a 'third world country', I don't need to.

Get a grip.

L.

Live in denial, as you wish... :roll:

[Frutzel]

The problem is they have already started. The scale of latest local ballot-rigging made Russia another third word country...


I wonder what position does Poland have in your imaginationland?:roll:

[shoora]

Since I wasn't referring to any rigged election, but to the conclusion that such a thing makes Russia a 'third world country', I don't need to.

Get a grip.

L.
Fortunately, you are wrong. Rigged elections does not make downgrades of any country. Otherwise you'll have to downgrade US from first to third world just because of (commonly believed) rigged 2001 elections. Many countries on different levels have rigged election. So what? Only common acceptance can name some country as first or third world.
So, to me, rigger election are also all cr..p that happen during election campaign with false advertisement, dirty PR, blackmail and stuff. Why not? But all this is usual elements of any election process.

BTW, anybody knows definition of 1st, 2nd and 3rd worlds? May be it is just stupid and arrogant classification to humiliate some countries and to selfish pleasure of others?

[ayanami_tard]

I wouldn't mind "democracy" in Japanese way: 50 years one party makes profit and rapid modernization,

just like malaysia:)

although i prefer to keep the ruling party.if it works,stick with it

[RIPTIDE]

I wonder what position does Poland have in your imaginationland?:roll:
The suppressed victim... as always. Thankfully most Polish don't whine about Eval Russ and bemoan the fall of Great Poland like Switek here.

[RIPTIDE]

Seems I can hear Nazi argumentation.... Damn, I thought we live in other world...
The usual BS story. If it doesn't agree with you at all, lets scream NAZI and then i can win. Phucking pathetic.

[SniperRu]

didn't Japan just vote in a new party in power after 50 years of constant rule of the Liberal Democratic Party? See the LDP as United Russia, after a couple of decades when things stabilize and the Duma gets credible opposition, maybe they'll be a change, decided by the Russian citizens and not George Soros, John McCain, Bruce P. Jackson and their NGOs.

[Jack Daniels]

The usual BS story. If it doesn't agree with you at all, lets scream NAZI and then i can win. Phucking pathetic.

I don't know why people argue with him, it's pointless...

[Switek]

The suppressed victim... as always. Thankfully most Polish don't whine about Eval Russ and bemoan the fall of Great Poland like Switek here.:cantbeli:

You must be a top mp.net idiot. Greater Poland is a name of historical land and name of the voivodship (province) I actually live.


The usual BS story. If it doesn't agree with you at all, lets scream NAZI and then i can win. Phucking pathetic.

In this case it was. Do not input me your context.


I don't know why people argue with him, it's pointless...

rofl rofl rofl Go crying somewhere else boy or/and put me on ignore list. Problem solved.