Cold War - Romanian Cartographers versus Russian Cartographers

[ovejanu]

I start with some words about the following. A good friend of mine ,Rus I., made a scientific paper - a comparative stude of GAUSS-KRUGER projection maps variand MTD (romanian) versus soviet edition (VTU) during cold war.
The interval was between 1960-1990 and – VTU from ex. URSS (Voyenno Topograficheskogo Upravlenya) was the leader of a world big cartographic project where the finality was maps of Europe, Asia, North America, Far and Orient East.
The involved resources: military cartographic institutes from St. Petersburg, Moscow, Novosibirsk, Khabarovsk, Tomsk, cartographic centers from Moscow, Novosibirsk, Omsk, Ekaterinburg, typography from St. Petersburg, Moscow, Saratov.
Approximately 35.000 - 40.000 persons was involved (cartographers, topographies, and intelligence personnel for field validation.
Technical specifications: scales between 1:10.000 and 1:1.000.000, projection – Gauss-Kruger, Datum - Pulkovo 1942, Ellipsoid - Krassovsky 1940, Language – russian.
The Romanian part which wasn't involved in that project was DTM (Topographic Military Direction) and it make own cartography maps of Romania at the same scale. So the favorability of the case study take into account of same mathematic base, same teritory and same period.
We will show a few comparative elements, in the left Romanian maps and at the right Russian maps.
We have a lots of comparative images, but i will show only few images.

Left - Romania Right - Russia

[ovejanu]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83208&stc=1&d=1255730813
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83206&stc=1&d=1255730785
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83207&stc=1&d=1255730785
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83209&stc=1&d=1255731139

[ovejanu]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83210&stc=1&d=1255731689
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83211&stc=1&d=1255731689
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83212&stc=1&d=1255731689

[T-5 Killer]

Very interesting! I never really thought about the variation in maps, Thanks for posting.

[ovejanu]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83213&stc=1&d=1255732124
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83214&stc=1&d=1255732124
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83215&stc=1&d=1255732124

[ovejanu]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83216&stc=1&d=1255732660
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83217&stc=1&d=1255732660
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83218&stc=1&d=1255732660

[ovejanu]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83219&stc=1&d=1255733454
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83220&stc=1&d=1255733454
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83221&stc=1&d=1255733454
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83222&stc=1&d=1255733454
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83223&stc=1&d=1255733454
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83224&stc=1&d=1255733454
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83225&stc=1&d=1255733454
http://http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83225&stc=1&d=1255733454

[cmc]

That is rather interesting... looks like the russian ones are somewhat better?!

[Connaught Ranger]

Even today in Romania its hard to get decent maps.

[tercio67]

That is rather interesting... looks like the russian ones are somewhat better?!

I don't think so, the level of detail for the Romanian maps seems better but have deliberate omissions in them (military and industrial/strategic installations?). Wich would be a common military practice for the time period.

[Derbedeu]

I don't think so, the level of detail for the Romanian maps seems better but have deliberate omissions in them (military and industrial/strategic installations?). Wich would be a common military practice for the time period.

Bingo. You pretty much hit it on the head tercio. Romania has always been very tight-lipped about it's military bases, secret services, etc., and having maps that reveal very little is not just a Romanian habit, but a commie one as well. It is also interesting to add that one reason Romania has so few expressways was because Ceausescu was always scared that they would facilitate an invasion from the Soviets, hence a severe lack of them in Romania when communism fell. It doesn't surprise me that the Russian map is much better as the two countries had a very uneasy relationship during the Cold War.

I have to say, but it's somewhat annoying how this pervasive need for secrecy seems to have lasted till today. A fellow Romanian flying with TAROM and an aviation enthusiast got in trouble for taking picture on the plane. The security actually had him erase the pics! It's still hard to take pics in places like Otopeni International airport, or in the Metro system in Bucharest.

[tercio67]

It was common for NATO countries to do this too.

[cmc]

^^ well... it might be so (and I would be glad to be so :) )... but what strategic value can have some small lakes like those here?


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83208&stc=1&d=1255730813

[tercio67]

^^ well... it might be so (and I would be glad to be so :) )... but what strategic value can have some small lakes like those here?

Geographical information, or lack of it, can influence groundoperations.
The lakes will serve as channeling features and as such can have a defensive value. Or when a attacker is confronted with them they can disrupt progress of an advance and buy time for the defenders.

Enough of these little set backs could make the best laid plans grind to a halt or at least make a serious rethink neccesery.

Google earth has made most of this unnessacery/obsolete now.

[BogdanM]

Hi ovejanu,

Do you know for which branch of the military the maps were made or whether the maps were issued in vast amounts? It could be faulty maps but I find it really curious how the romanian maps have indentical road system as the soviet ones and then misses a big lake and puts another city block in place(second comparison). I'm rather skeptical to believe that the army would make such mistakes and not notice.

[ovejanu]

It is a filtration of information, it was normal for every country in that period in the East. It wasn't my point that.
The important thing that i see in this maps is the fact that even if the romanian administration try to hide strategic and other objectives, the URSS has succed to have a real view of information.
That show the fact that soviet "intelligence" worked in Romania for years, because even if they use plane views from air, some information must be validate in the field (ex: drillings).
This means that the information concealment has faild.

Best regards,
Ionut

[ovejanu]

That is rather interesting... looks like the russian ones are somewhat better?!

Yes, it is true.

[BogdanM]

It is a filtration of information, it was normal for every country in that period in the East. It wasn't my point that.
The important thing that i see in this maps is the fact that even if the romanian administration try to hide strategic and other objectives, the URSS has succed to have a real view of information.
That show the fact that soviet "intelligence" worked in Romania for years, because even if they use plane views from air, some information must be validate in the field (ex: drillings).
This means that the information concealment has faild.

Best regards,
Ionut

Well the Romanian disinformation tactics failed only if they were ment to mislead the Soviets... We don't know for sure that the maps were made to fool the USSR and not someone else. After all Romania was member of the Warsaw Pact and an ally of the USSR. The maps may just as well be made as a defence tactic to a NATO offensive. Anyway the USSR probably had accurate maps of Western Europe and USA so I'm not surprised they had accurate maps of an allied country.

[LineDoggie]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83206&stc=1&d=1255730785
Christ, that a hell of a difference. how the hell did someone not notice the body of water? A Building or two can change within a year, but thats glaring

[stevej]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=83206&stc=1&d=1255730785
how the hell did someone not notice the body of water? A Building or two can change within a year, but thats glaring

Munition factory explosions tend to turn industrial buildings into pond pretty quickly, for example the famed Oppua explosion in 1921.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppau_explosion

[LineDoggie]

Oppau crater- 90m X 125m the water on the map is considerably larger if it's a 1:100,000 scale.

[NicNZ]

A somewhat-related anecdote from my parents -- in the early 1970s they were in London, soon to travel to a very small town in the US. They wanted to look at a map and get an idea of what was in the area around the place they would be staying. But on the US maps available to them in the library, they couldnt find the place. Sort of as a joke, they opened a Russian-produced map of the US, which had it marked.

[droopy]

Intresting article, thanks.


Bingo. You pretty much hit it on the head tercio. Romania has always been very tight-lipped about it's military bases, secret services, etc., and having maps that reveal very little is not just a Romanian habit, but a commie one as well. It is also interesting to add that one reason Romania has so few expressways was because Ceausescu was always scared that they would facilitate an invasion from the Soviets, hence a severe lack of them in Romania when communism fell. It doesn't surprise me that the Russian map is much better as the two countries had a very uneasy relationship during the Cold War.

I have to say, but it's somewhat annoying how this pervasive need for secrecy seems to have lasted till today. A fellow Romanian flying with TAROM and an aviation enthusiast got in trouble for taking picture on the plane. The security actually had him erase the pics! It's still hard to take pics in places like Otopeni International airport, or in the Metro system in Bucharest.

And what is wrong with that ? how many terrorist acts were commited on romanian soil in 20 years ? the NATO summit last year was one of the quietest ever, no demonstrations,no fights just empty streets and silence( not for me since i worked all of those days :D )
I really respect this secrecy and the fact that we have such good secret services.

[Connaught Ranger]

Romania was influenced by the typical paranoia of the communist mind set, people were not allowed access to simple things such as detailed maps as it hindered any attempts to flee the country in those times, a good friend of mine tried it, got within half a click of the border before being arrested by the Romanian border Police, he got 3 years in jail for his trouble.

Even today you can see supermarkets with no camera signs.

[droopy]

Romania was influenced by the typical paranoia of the communist mind set, people were not allowed access to simple things such as detailed maps as it hindered any attempts to flee the country in those times, a good friend of mine tried it, got within half a click of the border before being arrested by the Romanian border Police, he got 3 years in jail for his trouble.

Even today you can see supermarkets with no camera signs.

Nice story, why did he try to "escape" ?

So if a supermarket has a sign with cameras, you don`t enter the place ?

[Connaught Ranger]

Nice story, why did he try to "escape" ?

So if a supermarket has a sign with cameras, you don`t enter the place ?

He spent 3 years in Gherla prison, his crime was compounded by the fact he hit one of the border guards.

The reason why:- He did not buy into the communist dream and wanted a better life in the west of course.

As for your second comment are you trying (and failing) to be a smart a r s e?:roll:

[ninja-lewis]

The Russians were even kind enough to do it for Britain. They've probably be posted on MP.net somewhere.

(although they did cheat a bit by tracing the OS maps and then adding to them!)

[ovejanu]

hahaha , yes