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Ordie
10-20-2009, 05:19 PM
Immigrant Scientists Create Jobs and Win Nobels

It's crazy to drive away talented young scholars.


By SUSAN HOCKFIELD (http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=SUSAN+HOCKFIELD&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

Of the nine people who shared this year's Nobel Prizes in chemistry, physics and medicine, eight are American citizens, a testament to this country's support for pioneering research. But those numbers disguise a more important story. Four of the American winners were born outside of the United States and only came here as graduate or post-doctoral students or as scientists. They came because our system of higher education and advanced research has been a magnet for creative talent.
Unfortunately, we cannot count on that magnetism to last. Culturally, we remain a very open society. But that openness stands in sharp contrast to arcane U.S. immigration policies that discourage young scholars from settling in the U.S.
Those policies come at a high price. Graduate and postgraduate student immigrants are essential to creating new, well-paid jobs in our economy. Of the 35 young innovators recognized this year by Technology Review magazine for their exceptional new ideas, only six went to high school in the United States. From MIT alone, foreign graduates have founded an estimated 2,340 active U.S. companies that employ over 100,000 people.
Amazingly, if as incoming students they had told U.S. immigration authorities that they hoped to stay on as entrepreneurs after graduation, they would have been turned back at the border. Our immigration laws specifically require that students return to their home countries after earning their degrees and then apply for a visa if they want to return and work in the U.S. It would be hard to invent a policy more counterproductive to our national interest.
If the U.S. was the only country in the world that offered scholars scientific freedom, a cumbersome immigration process might not be that harmful. But the world today is teeming with well-funded opportunities to do first-class science. To be competitive, the U.S. needs to send the unmistakable message that we want scholars to stay.
To do that we need the kind of broad new immigration policy that would allow foreign students who earn advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering and math to easily become legal permanent residents. President Barack Obama and many others are already calling for such a policy.
We also need to aggressively develop more homegrown talent. A recent report from the Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) shows that we have lost our lead in education. In the 1960s, the U.S. had the highest high-school completion rate in the developed world; by 2005, we ranked 21st. In college completion, as recently as 1995 we ranked second. In 2005, we ranked 15th.
The OECD's report explains that we slipped in the rankings "not because U.S. college graduation rates declined, but because they rose so much faster" elsewhere. The U.S. now trails more than 16 nations in Europe and Asia in the proportion of 24-year-olds with bachelor's degrees in the natural sciences and engineering.
What we need is not just college graduates. We also need Ph.D.s in the sciences. Unfortunately, in the fields that spawn world-changing research and innovation, American graduate output has stagnated. From 1989 to 2003, despite a growing population, the number of American science and engineering Ph.D.s remained constant: an average of 26,600 a year. Over the same period and in the same fields, Ph.D.s awarded in China shot up to 12,000 from just 1,000.
In education, the world is accelerating while we are standing still, which is why Mr. Obama is pressing to revive our Sputnik-era commitment to science and math education.
Today, discovery and innovation increasingly spring from a creative network of the finest talent everywhere across the globe. From new advances in medicine to scientific breakthroughs that spawn new industries and sustainable jobs, the work of science and engineering is being done by individuals who can live almost anywhere.
To be part of that global creative network we must inspire more young Americans to pursue scientific careers, and we must rapidly reform U.S. immigration policies that drive away talented young scholars who would otherwise decide to live, work and innovate here. We should be proud of our Nobel Prize winners. But we should also craft policies that make it more likely that future Nobel laureates will do their work inside the U.S.
Ms. Hockfield is president of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Source:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704322004574477700761571592.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

JJC
10-20-2009, 06:04 PM
26,600 PhDs in sciences and engineering every year doesn't sound too bad. I bet there are 300,000 PhDs annually in poli sci and gender studies. Americans will never reform their education system because there is no pressing need. We have an easy way out by luring brains from all over the world instead of doing the hard job. Once our economy tanks in a decade or two and skilled people will not want to move to the U.S. maybe then we will start scratching our heads and blaming each other.

T3ngu
10-20-2009, 06:32 PM
Im looking at doing my PHD following on from my recently completed masters.

Speaking to a number of the universities both here and in the US has lead me to conclude:
1. The number of citizens doing PHDs has decreased dramatically
2. The number of overseas students has increased

Could be both a good or a bad thing depending on how serious the universities are about their grades. One university here has been criticised for going easy on undergraduates from non english speaking background, primarily as they pay full fee and make the universities a lot of money. I looked for the link re the fees but cant find it.

plato
10-20-2009, 06:53 PM
Im looking at doing my PHD following on from my recently completed masters.

Speaking to a number of the universities both here and in the US has lead me to conclude:
1. The number of citizens doing PHDs has decreased dramatically
2. The number of overseas students has increased

Could be both a good or a bad thing depending on how serious the universities are about their grades. One university here has been criticised for going easy on undergraduates from non english speaking background, primarily as they pay full fee and make the universities a lot of money. I looked for the link re the fees but cant find it.
how many of their professors are "non english speaking background"?

Chulo
10-20-2009, 08:30 PM
Immigrants? No problem, that is what U.S is built on. Law breaking ones? send them back and get in line.

Ordie
10-20-2009, 08:33 PM
Immigrants? No problem, that is what U.S is built on. Law breaking ones? send them back and get in line.

Including those on H1B Visas who overstayed with a wealth of trade secrets?

Chulo
10-20-2009, 08:43 PM
Including those on H1B Visas who overstayed with a wealth of trade secrets?
I am for Immigration reform, just not a blanket amnesty that rewards those who break the law. Even with the H1B's that have very creditable skills need to stick with the law.

T3ngu
10-20-2009, 09:07 PM
how many of their professors are "non english speaking background"?

Depends. Can't comment for sure, but when i did my masters most were from English speaking background, my undergraduate we had a mix from numerous countries including france, china, australia, england etc.

One of the universities was in a capital city, the other not.

Difool
10-21-2009, 02:01 AM
I guess nobody is arguing if high qualified scientist are allowed to immigrate or not.

brainplay
10-21-2009, 01:35 PM
I guess nobody is arguing if high qualified scientist are allowed to immigrate or not.

They are, and highly sought after. But the illegal immigration problem flowed into that arena making it harder for those people to immigrate legally.

Kicking someone out after their graduation makes perfect sense. Granting an automatic Visa does not. If they really wanted to stay on and make a difference they would have started their residency paperwork right away followed up by the paperwork for citizenship.

Ordie
10-21-2009, 02:09 PM
Kicking someone out after their graduation makes perfect sense. Granting an automatic Visa does not.

Given that the majority of Universities in the US are publically subidized through public investments, fellowships, research grants and internships, does it make sense to deport an international university graduate or Phd canidate without the benefit getting a return on that public investment?

Or do you want that talent to benefit our competitors at our taxpayers expense in public education?

LEGEND
10-21-2009, 03:20 PM
Kicking someone out after their graduation makes perfect sense. Granting an automatic Visa does not. If they really wanted to stay on and make a difference they would have started their residency paperwork right away followed up by the paperwork for citizenship.

I know at least two PHDs who are h1b, and it is EXTREMELY^2 hard for them to get permanent residency here. It is far away from how easy you make it sound. In the previous days it might have been slightly easier because the bigger companies would do their best to get these guys green cards so they could stay, but today any company that either took bail outs or laid off people in the last half(could have laid off a custodian, it doesn't make a difference) a year is not allowed to apply for green cards for their foreign workers (and its a lot of companies).

Couldn't agree more with the author of the article, open innovation is the way forward, you attract the brightest and everyone benefits, if you kick them out another country and their people will benefit instead of us.

LEGEND
10-21-2009, 03:23 PM
I am for Immigration reform, just not a blanket amnesty that rewards those who break the law. Even with the H1B's that have very creditable skills need to stick with the law.

The high qualified people with PHDs need official permission to work to do what they do. If their visa expires, they are not going to work illegally at a construction site or pick vegetables in the field for 3 dollars an hour... If the visa expires they leave.

brainplay
10-21-2009, 06:19 PM
Given that the majority of Universities in the US are publically subidized through public investments, fellowships, research grants and internships, does it make sense to deport an international university graduate or Phd canidate without the benefit getting a return on that public investment? Or do you want that talent to benefit our competitors at our taxpayers expense in public education?

I see what you did there.

But public investment and immigration is not as big an issue as you're trying to make. The international students do not receive those public funds except through research which is proprietary to the University and the corporations that sponsor them which is the payoff.


I know at least two PHDs who are h1b, and it is EXTREMELY^2 hard for them to get permanent residency here. It is far away from how easy you make it sound. In the previous days it might have been slightly easier because the bigger companies would do their best to get these guys green cards so they could stay, but today any company that either took bail outs or laid off people in the last half(could have laid off a custodian, it doesn't make a difference) a year is not allowed to apply for green cards for their foreign workers (and its a lot of companies).


I never said it was going to be easy. As I explained earlier though, this is a result of the illegal immigration problem. While I'd love to see immigration reform for H1B's I don't really see it happening until there is major reform and crack downs on the illegal aspect of our immigration problem. If Pres. Obama wanted to make some more inroads with Universities and even big corporations he would have Immigration and Customs double the number of H1B's slots available. That does not require Congressional legislation to make it happen. Pres. Bush did it once but only once and those were quickly filled due to demand. Flash in the pan that never went noticed.

Ordie
10-21-2009, 07:28 PM
The international students do not receive those public funds except through research which is proprietary to the University and the corporations that sponsor them which is the payoff.

Sure it is.
Do you think student tuition covers the entire budget of a university both public and private?

Who do you think does the research work for DARPA?
Or nuclear science research for the Department of Energy?
or pays for the majority of medical research on our country?

These students benefit from Uncle Sam's generosity, they should be beholden to pay back in kind in this country.

If public funds were actually the proprietary of the universities, why are many private universities are mandated to adhere to Title 9 in their sports programs?

I have yet to see any public grants without strings attached.

brainplay
10-22-2009, 08:59 AM
Sure it is.
Do you think student tuition covers the entire budget of a university both public and private?

Of course not. Why do you think sports programs are given as much or more attention that other school projects.


Who do you think does the research work for DARPA?
Or nuclear science research for the Department of Energy?
or pays for the majority of medical research on our country?

Lets see. That would be an international community, US residents and citizens with foreign information exchange based on treaties, drug and medical tech firms. Mounds out of molehills here.


These students benefit from Uncle Sam's generosity, they should be beholden to pay back in kind in this country.

If public funds were actually the proprietary of the universities, why are many private universities are mandated to adhere to Title 9 in their sports programs?

What are you on about? All research conducted while attending the Univ. is proprietary to the Univ. not the funds. Title 9? Title 9?! What does title 9 have anything to do about this? Are you trying to intro a race issue here? GTFO! :bash:

This is getting off topic. The point was already made. Good people with something to offer this country are getting shut out thanks to the illegals who don't have much to offer.